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Chinese Nobel Winner's Wife Detained

timothy posted more than 3 years ago | from the cutting-off-prime-source-of-nobel-gossip dept.

Censorship 289

suraj.sun writes with word (snipped from CNN) that censoring the news of Liu Xiaobo's Nobel prize wasn't enough for the government of China; now, Liu's wife "has been detained in her apartment in Beijing, China, and is not allowed to see people or use her telephone, a human rights group citing her attorney said Sunday. The woman, Liu Xia, has not been charged with a crime, said Freedom Now, a US-based group. 'Liu Xia is under enormous pressure,' said Dr. Yang Jianli, a member of Liu Xiaobo's defense team and a human rights specialist with Freedom Now. 'We hope that world leaders will immediately condemn this shameful act by the Chinese government and urge Liu Xia's immediate and unconditional release.'"

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China... (4, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33852704)

...the country of honour.

Re:China... (1, Insightful)

kurokame (1764228) | more than 3 years ago | (#33852752)

...the country that doesn't quite grasp the Streisand effect.

The good ol' US of A understands it quite well, which is why it towards throw celebrity scandals and other forms of misdirection instead of directly censoring things.

Re:China... (1)

jimicus (737525) | more than 3 years ago | (#33853018)

...the country that doesn't quite grasp the Streisand effect.

Doesn't quite care would, I fancy, be slightly more accurate.

Re:China... (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33853118)

The Streisand effect, like the Gandhi effect, only exists if several other components are in place, which they not always are.

In particular the Streisand effect relies on a) the existence of a media that wants to publicise anything that is sought to be hidden and b) a wider public that wants to / is able to / is mentally capable of hearing about it. In China either of these is rather debatable.

The Gandhi effect similarly relies on a) the existence of a military that doesn't kill the poor bugger for any of a million reasons and b) a civilian population that b1. stands above the military and b2. is inclined towards sympathy. There's probably been millions of Gandhis in all periods of time that have just been subject to immediate execution and nobody notices.

Re:China... (5, Interesting)

germansausage (682057) | more than 3 years ago | (#33853474)

There is a great short story about this, I think by Harry Turtledove. One of these alternate history concepts, where the Nazis end up ruling India instead of the British. When Gandhi tries his non-violent resistance the Germans arrest him. After a brief interview with the German commander, who is genuinely curious why Gandhi thinks his methods would have any effect on the German occupation, the German have him shot out of hand. End of story.

Re:China... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33853526)

They're a bunch of communist bastards, trampling any human rights, but we'll gladly take their money. Hypocrites on both sides of the fence.

Tipping Point (5, Interesting)

Reason58 (775044) | more than 3 years ago | (#33852738)

I really wonder if any line exists that the Chinese government can cross that will result in action taken against them by other countries and their own citizens.

Re:Tipping Point (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33852758)

Action? What action? The international community is shit scared of China, and the citizens of China are shit scared of China too.

Re:Tipping Point (-1, Flamebait)

Prune (557140) | more than 3 years ago | (#33853368)

The US has two orders of magnitude more nukes than china. The only thing to be afraid is not taking action now and waiting until China achieves nuclear primacy.

Re:Tipping Point (2, Funny)

Hylandr (813770) | more than 3 years ago | (#33853530)

Because all the rare earths the civilized world requires are so much more difficult to harvest when they are embedded in glass...

- Dan.

Re:Tipping Point (4, Insightful)

vux984 (928602) | more than 3 years ago | (#33852768)

Military invasion of a 1st world western country.

Re:Tipping Point (2, Insightful)

lennier1 (264730) | more than 3 years ago | (#33852934)

The Chinese just need to withdraw the money they've put into western assets and which they lent to the west to finance our national debts.
No need to waste a single bullet since there are better ways to devastate the western world in one stroke.

Re:Tipping Point (4, Informative)

Darkman, Walkin Dude (707389) | more than 3 years ago | (#33853014)

Seven percent of US national debt is all China holds. They need us a lot more than we need them, at least for now.

Re:Tipping Point (1)

lennier1 (264730) | more than 3 years ago | (#33853054)

Have them stop all export shipments to the west as well and the damage is done.

Re:Tipping Point (2, Informative)

hedwards (940851) | more than 3 years ago | (#33853106)

Not really, almost all of what they produce can be sourced elsewhere. They'd end up hurting themselves far more than they hurt us. The things which we really need are pretty much all produced by somebody else. Oil is mainly Canada and OPEC, food is mostly ourselves.

Same goes for trying to pull out their money too quickly. It would definitely be a case of MAD, they'd end up hurting us, but they'd end up hurting themselves worse. The US still has the production capacity to fix the problem, it would just be one hell of a shock to the system. But ultimately as we're the most productive nation on Earth we would ultimately survive it.

Re:Tipping Point (2, Insightful)

publiclurker (952615) | more than 3 years ago | (#33853504)

What production? Nearly anything of any worth has been exported to other countries so the executives can make even larger bonuses. If you honestly think we could bring back any of those lost industries in the short amount of time needed, then you would be in for quite a surprise.

Re:Tipping Point (4, Insightful)

germansausage (682057) | more than 3 years ago | (#33853248)

Then the companies that buy from China and sell to us would get their goods from Vietnam or Malaysia or Thailand or someplace else. China has a lot of cheap labor, but they don't have a monopoly. Also if China stops shipping to the West all their factories close and you suddenly put 300 million people out of work. The Chinese government is far more afraid of the social unrest that would cause than they are of Western criticism of their human rights record.

Re:Tipping Point (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33853780)

That would defiantly hurt China more than it would the Western World. They rely on Westerners to buy their products as much as Westerners rely on China for cheap goods. It is the only reason their market is thriving. Once they get to the point where average Chinese consumers can actually afford the goods they produce, it will be a different situation.

Re:Tipping Point (1)

Stargoat (658863) | more than 3 years ago | (#33853410)

Nonsense. Europe and the US could just declare all debt held by China null and void. Frankly, the western markets might like it.

It's just ink on paper. People forget that.

Re:Tipping Point (1)

Stargoat (658863) | more than 3 years ago | (#33853548)

And I just read that more thoroughly. Bleh.

Re:Tipping Point (1)

MightyMartian (840721) | more than 3 years ago | (#33853138)

And in doing so utterly wreck their own economy. It would suck for the West but we're still much better positioned to survive such a storm. What is keeping the Communists in power these days is the rising middle class, and the promise to the hundreds of millions of impoverished Chinese that they too will someday enter that group. To do as you suggest would be to create a level of chaos not seen in China since the Cultural Revolution, and I honestly wonder how many of those middle class would stand for that, or many senior members of the PLA, most of which are millionaires thanks to Deng Xioping's reforms.

What ultimately will keep the Communists in power is the economic revolution. If they fail at that, then they will fall, and yanking out of the West would do that in spades. And as much as I loathe the people running China, I do not think returning to the Cultural Revolution, or worse to the brutal civil war, would do any of us any good.

Re:Tipping Point (4, Interesting)

smallfries (601545) | more than 3 years ago | (#33853180)

What makes you think that would hurt us more than them?

The Chinese deliberately hold vast amounts of western debt to artificially strengthen the dollar against their own currency. If they withdraw that money then the dollar sinks and their currency rises. All of a sudden Chinese goods become much more expensive in all of their main markets. And all it does is cause the yield to increase on bonds. Hardly the devastation that you claim.

Re:Tipping Point (1)

mickwd (196449) | more than 3 years ago | (#33853320)

The Chinese deliberately hold vast amounts of western debt...

Then perhaps we shouldn't deliberately sell it to them then?

Re:Tipping Point (1)

smallfries (601545) | more than 3 years ago | (#33853518)

The part of the sentence that you didn't quote provided the meaning for "deliberately". Why do you think that selective quoting allows you to make a strawman?

Re:Tipping Point (5, Insightful)

couchslug (175151) | more than 3 years ago | (#33853500)

Why does this continue to come up?

We can nationalize their assets if they begin economic warfare. We can do anything we have the physical power to do, and that bears reminding. Laws are technical conveniences for maintaining social stability during ordinary conditions.

If laws are inconvenient, we can change or ignore them because force trumps law. Law is not a suicide pact. Enemies don't deserve protection of law, so we can choose not to protect them if there is sufficient public support. We can do anything enough of us want to do within the limits of our economic, military, and other capabilities.

We restrain ourselves with law (ALL law = restraint) because we expect benefit from doing that.

More irony (1)

poptones (653660) | more than 3 years ago | (#33853592)

In that you are wrong, but only for the wrong reason. Actually, what we SHOULD do is simply cut them off - no mroe trade relations with china, and nullify our debt. Because their currency is so dependant upon OURS, if we undo the damage done by Nixon in the 70's their nation would face a vastly reduced market for their goods, widespread unemployment, and a crash of their currency. Wal-Mart would be seriously fucked for a while, but they'd quickly adapt by moving all that production to Mexico - which would ALSO help us because it would create more jobs in a nation that is near our borders.

Actually... why the fuck haven't we done this? And bomb the shit out of their space program while we're at it.

Re:Tipping Point (2, Interesting)

Martin Blank (154261) | more than 3 years ago | (#33853152)

China was never a part of the First World. That was aligned with the US and NATO. The Second World was aligned with or influenced by the USSR (basically the Communist nations), which included China. The Third World was made up of pretty much everyone else.

These days, the UN Human Development Index is more often used to categorize countries, and China falls into the range of medium human development, coming in 92nd out of 182 nations and regions included.

China has some modern cities, but much of the country is rural agriculture, with people farming and subsisting pretty much as they have for centuries. It has no blue-water navy, and what it does have has never been sufficient to conduct an invasion of Taiwan even without the threat of the US being brought into the fray. Its air force fighters have been upgraded rapidly over the last decade or so, but its AWACS capability is still primitive at best. The ground forces' armor and artillery are also much more advanced than they were in the 1990s, but still not on par with Western powers, or maybe even South Korea's tanks, which are based on the M1. A significant portion of their military arsenal still makes up for lack of accuracy with increased yields in the 3-5 megaton range.

That's not to say that such an invasion would be a cakewalk. Sheer military numbers and size of the country would make life difficult even for multiple nations invading, possibly to the point of defeat. At the very least, it would be horrendously expensive on a scale that we've never seen.

Re:Tipping Point (0, Offtopic)

GryMor (88799) | more than 3 years ago | (#33852882)

Nuclear first strike. Before that, everything else is done under the shield of them not having nuked anyone but being capable of it.

Re:Tipping Point (1)

nschubach (922175) | more than 3 years ago | (#33852994)

I think the Nobel committee needs a new motto:

"The Nobel Peace Prize Committee: Stirring up the pot of conflict!"

Re:Tipping Point (3, Insightful)

obarthelemy (160321) | more than 3 years ago | (#33853444)

I support that. given how little backbone other institutions have had, we sorely need some of those.

Re:Tipping Point (1)

O('_')O_Bush (1162487) | more than 3 years ago | (#33852924)

Citizens of China either,

1. Love China
2. Are afraid of China

Other countries either:

1. Love China (money machine)
2. Are afraid of China and its allies (Russia)

Answer to your question is yes, but it's so far away that China will likely be invaded by aliens long before they cross it.

Re:Tipping Point (2, Insightful)

MightyMartian (840721) | more than 3 years ago | (#33853222)

Russia hasn't been a meaningful ally of China since the 1950s, and they have fought at least one undeclared war. As well, with Siberia being so heavily depopulated and a lot of Chinese moving into these areas, I think another Sino-Russian conflict can't be too far away. The Chinese are obviously eying the vast and largely untapped resources of Siberia and it's hard to look at the recent large number of Chinese migrants to that area as anything other than a colonization effort.

Re:Tipping Point (4, Insightful)

negRo_slim (636783) | more than 3 years ago | (#33853506)

It's no more a colonization effort than Mexican immigration is into the united states.

Re:Tipping Point (0, Redundant)

modecx (130548) | more than 3 years ago | (#33853620)

So, you're saying it's actually a kind of invasion?

Re:Tipping Point (1)

FishOuttaWater (1163787) | more than 3 years ago | (#33853672)

There are a lot more jobs to be had in the US than Mexico, so it's pretty obvious why people would want to immigrate. What exactly is it that you think would be the personal attraction drawing flocks of people to move to Siberia if the Chinese government isn't pressing them over the border for colonial purposes?

Re:Tipping Point (0, Redundant)

jmccue (834797) | more than 3 years ago | (#33853682)

I agree, I have been thinking the same thought for quite a while. Did not know about the migration, but I believe most of the population in Siberia are closer culturally to China/Mongolia that Russia. I almost think that area has a greater potential of nuclear war than any other place in the world. Esp as resources get hard to come by and with its Arctic Sea border, oil comes into play.

Re:Tipping Point (5, Insightful)

DDLKermit007 (911046) | more than 3 years ago | (#33853388)

Actually you forgot a number 3. Chinese citizens are even more apathetic than Americans to their government. As long as problems do not affect them DIRECTLY, they do not care. It's really common among my friends who are from there.

Re:Tipping Point (5, Insightful)

cf18 (943501) | more than 3 years ago | (#33853378)

Liu is going to love reading this when he get out of jail - he advocates peaceful reform but all you guys can talk about is war and violent uprising. It is like you guys are trying really hard to prove the Chinese government is right to lock him up - that his ideas are actually dangerous.

Re:Tipping Point (1)

obarthelemy (160321) | more than 3 years ago | (#33853412)

Detention without representation nor charges.. what's next, property seizures without court decisions ? where do they think they are ? the US ?

Re:Tipping Point (1)

ObsessiveMathsFreak (773371) | more than 3 years ago | (#33853508)

Becoming Communist.

Re:Tipping Point (0, Troll)

gandhi_2 (1108023) | more than 3 years ago | (#33853608)

The Chinese people have been so thoroughly indoctrinated that they will never revolt in any appreciable results.

Watch news interviews with Chinese citizens. Something's wrong? The government should fix it! They literally can't conceive a life without the benevolent government taking care of every facet of life.

If you need the government more than they need you, then you live life on the government's terms. Coincidentally, that is basically the Democrat playbook in a nutshell.

Is anyone surprised? (4, Interesting)

the linux geek (799780) | more than 3 years ago | (#33852750)

Why does the mainland Chinese government get better treatment from the "free world" than any other petty dictatorship? They've repeatedly shown that they aren't prepared to act in a respectable manner, so why should they get respect?

Re:Is anyone surprised? (5, Insightful)

MRe_nl (306212) | more than 3 years ago | (#33852800)

Yeah, what with all the abductions of suspects from foreign countries, secret detention camps, torture and whatnot they should definitely be blacklisted by all civilised nations.

Re:Is anyone surprised? (3, Insightful)

clang_jangle (975789) | more than 3 years ago | (#33852914)

And they spy on their own citizens -- savages!

The U.S. is much more similar to China than it cares to admit. Then there's the little matter of China owning enormous chunks of the U.S....

Re:Is anyone surprised? (5, Insightful)

IndustrialComplex (975015) | more than 3 years ago | (#33853068)

The U.S. is much more similar to China than it cares to admit. Then there's the little matter of China owning enormous chunks of the U.S....

I know, why here in the U.S. saying such a thing like that will get you and your wife tossed into jail.

Re:Is anyone surprised? (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33853334)

He didn't say the US was identical to China. The claim is that many things that China does, and that we are outraged by, are exactly business as usual in the US already, Pointing out one way, even an important one, where the US differs does nothing to disprove that.

Re:Is anyone surprised? (1)

qmaqdk (522323) | more than 3 years ago | (#33853430)

I know, why here in the U.S. saying such a thing like that will get you and your wife tossed into jail.

You need to be Muslim, but then yes.

Re:Is anyone surprised? (4, Insightful)

ShanghaiBill (739463) | more than 3 years ago | (#33853598)

I know, why here in the U.S. saying such a thing like that will get you and your wife tossed into jail.

On a per capita basis, the USA imprisons four times as many people as China.

Very few Americans are imprisoned for dissent, but that is just because we don't have many dissidents, or at least few that anyone listens to. In the past, when there were serious dissident movements in the USA, we imprisoned lots of them. Habeas corpus was suspended to lock up war protesters without trial. Many leaders of the labor movement, and most hard-left politicians spent time in prison. If you included suppression of dissidents in other countries where the US excercised military or diplomatic control, then we are one of the worst suppressors of dissent that ever existed.

I am not defending what China is doing. But you should not be holding up the USA as a beacon of freedom and tolerance.

Re:Is anyone surprised? (1)

Overzeetop (214511) | more than 3 years ago | (#33853642)

On the contrary, the only thing I hear on the TV this election season is dissidents. This time around they're called Republicans, but we called them Democrats two years go. That's not to say that we don't problems, but you really can say just about anything you want about the government with impunity. If you're crazy enough, you'll most likely get ignored, or put on a morning talk show, or - if you happen to have a foreign sounding name - put on an FBI or CIA watch list...in that order of likelihood.

Re:Is anyone surprised? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33853400)

The U.S. is much more similar to China than it cares to admit. Then there's the little matter of China owning enormous chunks of the U.S....

So let's set a good example and send out Obama and Gore.

Re:Is anyone surprised? (1)

Colonel Korn (1258968) | more than 3 years ago | (#33852810)

Why does the mainland Chinese government get better treatment from the "free world" than any other petty dictatorship? They've repeatedly shown that they aren't prepared to act in a respectable manner, so why should they get respect?

Because they have money and a giant military.

Re:Is anyone surprised? (1)

biryokumaru (822262) | more than 3 years ago | (#33852830)

Giant =/= Powerful

Re:Is anyone surprised? (2, Interesting)

Culture20 (968837) | more than 3 years ago | (#33852896)

Giant =/= Powerful

Their words are backed by the power of Nuclear Weapons! >:(
/Civ

Re:Is anyone surprised? (1)

Dunbal (464142) | more than 3 years ago | (#33852910)

Certainly more powerful than the Taliban...

Re:Is anyone surprised? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33853270)

Certainly more powerful than the Taliban...

I don't China ever managed to convince the western world to adopt any of the Chinese values regarding human rights. Taliban OTOH succeeded at that.

Re:Is anyone surprised? (1)

O('_')O_Bush (1162487) | more than 3 years ago | (#33852964)

In China's case, it's Giant + Powerful.

Both China and its allies are pursuing 5th Generation fighter aircraft (see Sukhoi PAK FA (ally) and J-XX). They aren't exactly chucking spears...

Re:Is anyone surprised? (1)

Martin Blank (154261) | more than 3 years ago | (#33853166)

As I posted above, their air force and army have been advancing rapidly over the last 20 years or so, and they still are a nuclear power.

Re:Is anyone surprised? (4, Interesting)

IgnoramusMaximus (692000) | more than 3 years ago | (#33852948)

Why does the mainland Chinese government get better treatment from the "free world" than any other petty dictatorship?

Because the "free world", and USA in particular, has long since abandoned any pretense of being "free" and gave up any moral authority that may have existed there.

"Preemptive" wars of conquest based on fabrications, secret detentions, extra-judicial assassinations via drone, Fatherland ... I mean Homeland Security Department with all of its lovely extra-judicial powers etc and so on.

In fact since I am old enough for this, boarding an airliner in the US is now an experience far worse then doing so in the Soviet Union in the heyday of the USSR (and yes, I've been there so I have first hand data to contrast the two).

Re:Is anyone surprised? (3, Interesting)

ikarous (1230832) | more than 3 years ago | (#33853086)

In fact since I am old enough for this, boarding an airliner in the US is now an experience far worse then doing so in the Soviet Union in the heyday of the USSR (and yes, I've been there so I have first hand data to contrast the two).

Human beings are strange critters, especially in numbers. They will happily consign themselves to completely unreasonable treatment by TSA goons to gain the mere perception of protection from an event that has about a 1*10^-1000 percent chance of happening in the first place. Meanwhile, most people don't seem to have a problem playing with their phones while doing eighty down the highway. This type of irrationality continually erodes personal freedom in the USA (and undoubtedly elsewhere).

Re:Is anyone surprised? (1)

misexistentialist (1537887) | more than 3 years ago | (#33853748)

I don't know how much of it comes from popular pressure--I haven't heard of people choosing "more secure" airports. Mostly it's just how a large government operates. After a significant attack it has to spend a lot of money on security measures, and it almost certainly will find some country to invade. And it does this even though everyone knows it will make things worse.

Power (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33853090)

To simplify, power doesn't need to respect freedom or the principles of liberty; any showing of "respect" to liberty is merely lip service. After all, political power is typically the direct opposite of liberty. So what does power respect? Greater power. Why? Because they have to. Yes, it really is as simple as being the biggest bully on the playground, but here, we aren't talking about beating up the smaller kids and stealing their lunch money; we're talking about killing, death, and destruction, and trillions of dollars at stake.

Let's examine the realities of history. The US government's economic and military dominance of the world is "respected" not because the US government holds any moral high ground; it is respected because the US government is currently superior to all other governments in terms of both power and revenue. However, that is changing. The chinese government is quickly becoming a big fish in the pond once dominated by the US government. Therefore, despite their obvious distaste for freedom and individual liberty, they will be respected simply because they are a big fish.

Sometimes "real politics" really is as simple as grade school politics.

Michael Moore or Osama Bin Ladin? (0, Offtopic)

glrotate (300695) | more than 3 years ago | (#33853140)

Just curious.

Re:Is anyone surprised? (4, Informative)

arose (644256) | more than 3 years ago | (#33853142)

"Preemptive" wars of conquest based on fabrications, secret detentions, extra-judicial assassinations via drone, Fatherland ... I mean Homeland Security Department with all of its lovely extra-judicial powers etc and so on.

Treatment of native americans, slavery, Jim Crow laws, women's rights, prohibition, Japanese American internment, McCarthyism, the Guatemala medical experiments and so on, and so forth. It has never really been significantly different. Where does this meme that the US has suddenly abandoned it's perfect record of freedom come from?

Re:Is anyone surprised? (1)

MightyMartian (840721) | more than 3 years ago | (#33853162)

And where is it written that having an imperfect human rights record means you're as bad as countries with horrific human rights records?

Re:Is anyone surprised? (3, Insightful)

arose (644256) | more than 3 years ago | (#33853176)

Indeed, where did I write that?

Re:Is anyone surprised? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33853242)

Why does the mainland Chinese government get better treatment from the "free world" than any other petty dictatorship?

Because the "free world", and USA in particular, has long since abandoned any pretense of being "free" and gave up any moral authority that may have existed there.

That, and you're hardly 'free' if you're heavily financially indebted to said dictatorship.

Re:Is anyone surprised? (4, Informative)

phantomfive (622387) | more than 3 years ago | (#33853376)

boarding an airliner in the US is now an experience far worse then doing so in the Soviet Union in the heyday of the USSR (and yes, I've been there so I have first hand data to contrast the two).

Right, assuming you could get a ticket. For the average Russian, travel was far worse than it is now.....so bad, it didn't happen at all. Russians not only needed permission to leave the country, they needed permission to travel to a different city. The reason we demonized USSR checkpoints was because they restricted movement for the vast majority, not because they were annoying. To pretend US checkpoints are worse is to be intellectually dishonest.

Re:Is anyone surprised? (3, Interesting)

fishbowl (7759) | more than 3 years ago | (#33853466)

>intellectually dishonest

What does that mean? Why not just say "dishonest?"

Re:Is anyone surprised? (1)

phantomfive (622387) | more than 3 years ago | (#33853570)

What he said is probably technically true (that it is more inconvenient to get through a checkpoint now than in the USSR), so it's not really a lie. However, it is certainly a misleading statement. It doesn't give a complete picture of the situation he is describing.

Similarly if I said, "Every scientist I've asked believes there are green men walking on the moon." Technically that is true, it is not a lie; but only because I've never actually asked a scientist about that particular point. So saying it like that gives a misleading view of the situation even if it is true, and I know it, so I call it intellectually dishonest.

I guess I could say deceitful but that's more emotionally charged and likely to make someone feel defensive.

Re:Is anyone surprised? (1)

Fnkmaster (89084) | more than 3 years ago | (#33853386)

I don't think that's the correct cause and effect. China gets better treatment because of our economic dependence on them. Before that, they got better treatment because we wanted to sell products to them as a market. For about 30 years now we've seen China and their huge numbers of people as first a source of a market, then as a source of cheap labor that we needed to fuel our next wave of economic growth. Now we've created a bit of a monster - an economic powerhouse without the kind of moral and ethical framework that other technologically and economically developed countries are.

We no longer have the ability to take the moral high ground with China because of our huge economic ties to them. Not because we don't have the desire to at all.

It is also entirely plausible that our need for economic growth and security have led us to give up valuing concepts like individual freedom quite as much.

But I wouldn't causally link these things the way you seem to. We didn't give up on trying to take a moral high ground after we gave up on our individual liberties, we'd given up on taking the moral high ground with China and many other countries long before September 11th.

Re:Is anyone surprised? (1)

MrHyd3 (19709) | more than 3 years ago | (#33852968)

1 - Money!
2 - Largest army in the world
3 - They also have nukes

Re:Is anyone surprised? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33853194)

Because they have all the money.

Re:Is anyone surprised? (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33853296)

The same reason the USA does despite ramming is laws down the throats of other countries, starting wars of aggression, extra-judicial rendering, committing acts of torture, and so on. Because both China and the USA are powerful economically, and money rules the world.

Everyone now sees that the new big dog on the block is going to be China, not the USA any more, and everyone wants to be on China's good side out of self interest.

Re:Is anyone surprised? (1)

Karljohan (807381) | more than 3 years ago | (#33853366)

Because they fill the big holes in US state budget and has done so for a long time?

Re:Is anyone surprised? (1)

eulernet (1132389) | more than 3 years ago | (#33853380)

so why should they get respect?

According to:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_public_debt#Foreign_ownership [wikipedia.org]

22% of the US debt is owned by China.

868 billions are enough to let any official shut his mouth, especially for the sake of a single person.

And for the rest of the world, China is probably the biggest investor.

Re:Is anyone surprised? (1)

couchslug (175151) | more than 3 years ago | (#33853766)

Because realpolitik is more important to grownups that what barbarians do to other barbarians in their own kingdoms.

It is also more convenient to punish the weak than the strong.

In The Ghetto XXXI (starring Grandma Lockwood) (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33852756)

A burning wet fart scalded Vlad's colon and rectum as he twitched awake. Vlad laid in bed, shaking at the horrible images that had danced through his sleeping mind. Sweat streamed from his forehead, trickled through his greasy scalp and soaked his pillow. This had been the worst nightmare yet. Vlad had dreamt that he was married to a 400-pound bag of soul-sucking gelatin. Living in a double-wide trailer filled with Jerry Springer moments, his only joy was his two sexy sons!

Vlad slipped out of bed and tip-toed into the next room. There, Grandma slept peacefully, snoring and farting in her usual comforting way. Vlad slipped under the covers with her and immediately felt his sense of security return. Grandma always made everything better. A loud, low rumble escaped from her buttocks. Vlad pulled himself lower down the length of the bed so that his nose rested against Grandma's ass. He inhaled deeply as the gas wafted around him and put him back to sleep. Vlad savored every moment, even in his sleep, for he knew tomorrow the other kids in his class would remind him of his countless inadequacies.

* * * * * * * * *

Vlad belched forcefully, sending chunks of hamburger helper spewing out into the living-room. The orange plastic of the couch stuck to his fat pale legs and his stained briefs bathed him in a rich sampling of unique Lockwood odors. At the opposite end of the couch, Reza sat in her usual spot. The cushion was practically non-existent, compressed as it was from her unimaginable mass.

"Oh Vladdie-Pop, I'm so glad Grandma has come to stay with us since little Vaginez came along! It is so nice to have some help around the house!"

"Yo, you fat cunt, I'm trying to watch the new Eminem video. One more word outta you, and your fat ass'll be laid out on the fuckin' floor for the next month."

Reza quivered at the thought of another merciless beating by her dear Vladdie-Pop. The last time he had "corrected" her, she had spent 22 hours huddled in the shower, weeping as the scalding water pelted her rubbery body. She had lost a whopping 1/2 pound that day. She spent the entire next day eating, fearful of her body wasting away to further displease her beloved.

Reza's ruminations were interrupted by a terrible screeching from Marticock's Chamber. Vlad's fleshy head reddened with rage. He just wanted to watch television. Why did everything always have to work against him? He turned to Reza, with a terrifying scowl on his face. Reza felt a pang of terror shoot through her massive gut and she frantically dislodged herself from the indentation in the couch.

Reza thudded across the double-wide's paper-thin floors, "Grandma! Grandma!"

Grandma Lockwood was sitting on the toilet relieving herself of the Metamucil she had consumed for breakfast, "don't worry, dear, I'll take little Marticock out for a nice walk and he'll be fine!"

"Oh Grandma," Reza blubbered.

Grandma Lockwood soaked a rag in some Clorox and cleaned her rump of the liquified feces that had spattered up from the toilet. She applied a thick coat of Johnson's Baby Powder and then pulled up her stockings. She flushed the toilet, which immediately backed up and spilled out over the floor.

"Reza, honey, you wanna clean up my shit while I take little Marticock for a nice walk?"

Reza was only happy to clean up in the bathroom. It would give her a purpose, a valid reason to be away from Vlad. Though she could never admit such a thing to herself, at a subconscious level she would do anything to avoid being with her Precious Love.

Grandma Lockwood prepared the grocery cart by throwing some used Taco Bell napkins in the bottom to make a nice nest for Marticock. She then lifted Marticock from his crib, careful not to agitate his pummelled rear, and placed him comfortably in the nest. She wrapped herself in her Eminem shawl - a Christmas gift from her grandson - and pushed Marticock out the door.

With Reza scrubbing furiously in the bathroom and Grandma Lockwood and Marticock strolling outside, Vlad popped open another can of beer and used it to wash down a handful of Prozac. His body melted into the orange vinyl of the couch as the flashing images of Slim Shady sang to the troubled teen within.

Vlad's tranquility was suddenly interrupted by the screeching of brakes and a loud blaring horn. Vlad heard a scream, a crunch and then the sound of an idling diesel engine. An explosion of gas propelled Vlad from the couch and he waddled as quickly as he could out the door. Vlad dropped his beer and his jaw in shock at the crumpled heap of Grandma Lockwood laying in the middle of the road. A pool of blood expanded around her. Marticock had been thrown from his cart and laid on the street kicking his feet. His diaper had been torn from his body and Grandma Lockwood's warm blood soothed his infected rectum as it oozed around him.

Marticock rolled over onto his stomach and the warm blood aroused his penis, which had grown to gigantic proportions due to Vlad's testosterone experiments. Marticock began to masturbate in the road, using the blood as a lubricant. Vlad's horror began to change, to mutate, into arousal. He knew of no other way to cope, emotionally crippled as he was. He could only think of satisfying his primal desires. But Marticock was out of the question until his anus healed. Vlad needed to stick it in something quick.

Then something caught his eye. Vlad was able to make out the form of Grandma Lockwood's ass in the mutilated heap of flesh. It was sticking high into the air and the warm evening breeze carried the scent of Clorox and Baby Powder to Vlad's discerning nose hairs.

Vlad peeled his briefs from his flaccid body and dropped the beer can as he lunged toward the alluring butt. Vlad tore away the old brown stockings and plunged his 1 inch missile of passion into the dry, boney rear. Vlad thrust forcefully, grinding himself against Grandma Lockwoods cold, lifeless rump. The truck driver hopped out of his cab and watched the gruesome act of Lockwoodphilia in complete shock and horror.

Vlad smiled in ecstacy. Even in death, Grandma Lockwood comforted Vlad's tormented psyche.

Isn't this great? (5, Insightful)

Austerity Empowers (669817) | more than 3 years ago | (#33852766)

I can't think of a country more deserving to receive the entirety of our scientific and engineering knowledge.

World Leaders ? More like Economic boot lickers (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33852774)

World leaders ? Who ? US ? US does nothing that will imperil its economics needs... look at our friendly neighborhood GOOG even they capitulated and kept their China offices open.

Beggars cant be criticizers.

Re:World Leaders ? More like Economic boot lickers (1)

Mashiki (184564) | more than 3 years ago | (#33852898)

That's funny. The US enjoys yelling and whining at Canada over a myriad of issues, and we shovel processed crap from north to south for your consumption. At the end of the day we just don't care.

YRO (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33852798)

How does this detention in China affect anybody's online rights?

I'm pretty tired of all the anti-China posts on slashdot. Its not news that it is an authoritarian governship and the rights of its citizens are less than those in the western world. This kind of stuff is par for the course for them, so don't be so surprised.

No other country seems to get such navel gazing attention here. This isn't tech or nerd related at all, so it shouldn't have been posted here.

Re:YRO (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33853524)

How does this detention in China affect anybody's online rights?

She is not being detained because she is a criminal (she's even not charged of any crime), she is detained to prevent her from going online. Don't worry, they will never prevent you from going online, they only prevent people who actually have something to say from going online.

China SUCKS ASS (0, Flamebait)

kheldan (1460303) | more than 3 years ago | (#33852884)

Was even Soviet-ear Russia as bad as this? Is Iran even as bad as this? Was Saddam-controlled Iraq as bad as this? I'm not sure which angers me more: the act itself, or the utter stupidity that underlies it!

Re:China SUCKS ASS (3, Insightful)

BungaDunga (801391) | more than 3 years ago | (#33853208)

Yes. Soviet-era Russia, Iran, and Iraq were/are all as bad as this. Detaining a dissident and his family is hardly the worst thing any of them did.

It's not stupid- it can be pretty damn effective (see: Aung San Suu Kyi).

Re:China SUCKS ASS (2, Interesting)

Nemyst (1383049) | more than 3 years ago | (#33853318)

Difference being, each of those countries were/are seen as enemies to the West for what they have done. China is seen as a business partner.

Re:China SUCKS ASS (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33853754)

Difference being, each of those countries were/are seen as enemies to the West for what they have done. China is seen as a business partner.

Rumsfeld [gwu.edu] was sent to Iraq by Reagan to patch things up with Saddam in 1983 only months after Saddam had used chemical weapons. There is even an official photo of them meeting. You see, however bad Saddam was, he was considered better than the bogeyman-of-the-day Iran. And to make things even more stomach-churning, Rumsfeld used Iraq's purported chemical weapons arsenal in 2003 to justify invading the country. They couldn't even bother to find a person to head up the propaganda push for the invasion who hadn't been one of the chief apologists for the regime twenty years before.

So Iraq wasn't seen as 'just' a business partner - it was seen as a key ally in the region. Of course, Reagan's team had previously bribed the Iranians to release hostages using illegal arms deals, so it's not like there was no contact at all. Meanwhile Russia was selling massive quantities of raw materials and heavy industrial products onto the market through the 80s to make up for its lack of success in producing higher-grade technology or consumer goods. The idea that realpolitik is new, and that previously US foreign policy was based on some sort of assessment of moral purity is hypocritical bullshit.

Re:China SUCKS ASS (5, Interesting)

IndustrialComplex (975015) | more than 3 years ago | (#33853422)


Was even Soviet-ear Russia as bad as this? Is Iran even as bad as this? Was Saddam-controlled Iraq as bad as this? I'm not sure which angers me more: the act itself, or the utter stupidity that underlies it!

My great grandfather spent 10 years in a 'labor' camp in Siberia. It just so happened that he was also a political critic.
My great grandmother buried her mother on the side of the road while fleeing from Poland.

It's not surprising that it happened. My great grandfather was part of a purge, he had been a major player in rebellion in Poland and was probably seen as a potential opponent to some on the Russian side of things.

Amazingly he survived and made it to the United States. I've tried to piece fact from fiction as told by my father and grandfather (who may not be the most impartial storytellers) but some of the physical evidence I have, photos, travel documents, and a few historical records (journals from his time escaping from the USSR after Siberia) make it an interesting story. I'm going to have to see what a historian familiar with Polish history could tell me. But, needless to say, some relatives of mine did NOT make it to the States.

Re:China SUCKS ASS (1)

Peeteriz (821290) | more than 3 years ago | (#33853736)

Soviet Russia was definitely worse; at the age of Stalin the guy would have been dead already; and his family would be sent to labor camps already back then, instead of letting them walk free and think improper thoughts.

Re:China SUCKS ASS (1)

Kjella (173770) | more than 3 years ago | (#33853784)

Was even Soviet-ear Russia as bad as this? Is Iran even as bad as this? Was Saddam-controlled Iraq as bad as this? I'm not sure which angers me more: the act itself, or the utter stupidity that underlies it!

Compared to Soviet gulags [wikipedia.org] any many other historical acts current day China isn't even near the top hundred. The best estimates indicate less than a thousand died at Tiananmen Square compared to at least 700.000 executed in the Great Purge of 1937-1938. Don't get me wrong, you don't have liberty in China but what they've achieved where so many other totalitarian regimes have failed is to create prosperity. People are employed, wages are up and they get what the Romans called "bread and circus". China just is not suppressing the same kind of "I got no job, no food, no future, what do I have to lose?" rebellion as so many others did.

In a way I think many Americans don't "believe" in China. A non-democratic state that is the world's second largest economy, world's largest car market, huge on all sorts of high tech and production industry and really in every way a much more formidable "opponent" than the Soviet Union ever was. Not to mention one that the US depends on for many goods and now have a sizable debt to. It must go against so many ideologists that think the US model is supreme in every way possible. But just like you organize the military as a strict chain of command from the joint chiefs down to each soldier, China does in the political life - one party and a chain of command. Sadly it has benefits, apparently good enough for most Chinese to shut up and pretend to like it.

Famous to demand protest? (1)

MrHyd3 (19709) | more than 3 years ago | (#33852930)

Why is it only those who are famous attention is obtained? Don't you think this happens to many "average" / non-elites people daily?

And this is who America sold out to? (0, Troll)

Jackie_Chan_Fan (730745) | more than 3 years ago | (#33852946)

China sucks

Employ Americans.

"Peace Rise" and Peace Prize (1)

billyswong (1858858) | more than 3 years ago | (#33852984)

Somebody here in Hong Kong made fun that the Peace Prize is very fitting to the mainland China government motto, "Peace Rise".

Originally, CCTV produced a TV program called "Rise of Great Powers". Feeling bad of being finger pointed, the government soon changed the slogan to "Rise in Peace" (something like that). Now, in the meantime they discussing how to "rise peacefully", they got a citizen born in China and live in China being given a Peace Prize. They should "celebrate" their everlasting effort now got international recognition!

Back on topic. Media here in Hong Kong succeeded to maintain a phone call to Liu Xia on that day, notified her the latest information, and asked her for some comment. And she spoke "I am proud of him. He is innocent" something like that. No wonder now the police block the phone line too. Seriously speaking, there are messages on Twitter saying that some related people were detented when they wanted to have a good dinner together for a private celebration. (Hope things like that won't be copied to Hong Kong.)

What a wonderful "peace rise".

perfect (0, Flamebait)

aZbestum (1918964) | more than 3 years ago | (#33853060)

nice web

i am sickened by these posts (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33853182)

what authority has any other country over china to tell them how to handle their own internal affairs?

im not chinese. ive never been to china. i dont want to go to china.

who am i, who is -anyone-, 'world leader' or not, to tell another country how they should handle their own citizens?

if the people of china dislike their current situation so much, they should violently overthrow the despots, if they dont, it's their own fault and their posterity will continue to endure tyrannical abuses (much the same situation as it is in the rest of the world).

Re:i am sickened by these posts (1)

MightyMartian (840721) | more than 3 years ago | (#33853292)

Since a helluva lot of Western money is flowing into China, largely under the argument that China would change and become a nicer place with all that money flowing into it, I'd say the West has some interest.

Re:i am sickened by these posts (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33853680)

what authority has any other country over china to tell them how to handle their own internal affairs?

im not chinese. ive never been to china. i dont want to go to china.

who am i, who is -anyone-, 'world leader' or not, to tell another country how they should handle their own citizens?

if the people of china dislike their current situation so much, they should violently overthrow the despots, if they dont, it's their own fault and their posterity will continue to endure tyrannical abuses (much the same situation as it is in the rest of the world).

Well, some people care about other people. You don't apparently, let them take care of themselves for all you care?

lol.. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33853220)

if the US invades China they will have to take responsibility for 1.3 billion people...

Here in the West we self-censor (4, Insightful)

IndustrialComplex (975015) | more than 3 years ago | (#33853288)

Our governments have no need to resort to jailing our dissidents anymore. They can rely on our own populace deciding that their views fall into the 'opposing group' and then will launch a self-powered smear machine which is VERY hard to avoid.

Need examples? Watch as people with even the slightest belief outside the two parties in the United States gets immediately attacked as being kooks, Nazi's, communists, nutcases, idiots, or just plain character assassinated by tying them together with actual nutcases.

How do you do it?

Well, if anyone supports a position, first, take that position and move it as far to the extreme as you can. Then, find someone who holds the same position, but additional extreme beliefs and then whenever the first person or group is mentioned be sure to include the actual nutcase in your 'critique'.

So anyone expressing any sort of libertarian suggestion should be suggested to be presenting the views of an Anarchist, associated with Christine O'Donnell and her extreme viewpoints (because she also mentioned lower taxes, therefore lower taxes = push for creationism in schools)

If you express any sort of desire to suggest changes to our insurance system, well now you are a nutcase who wants the government to also ban fatty food, and allow a shrill voice to tell you that you aren't doing your exercises vigorously enough as monitored in your telescreen. Associate them with Barbara Boxer (I honestly don't know who to label as the kook here, because I'm not in the practice of it, but you get the idea).

In the end, the people who actually try to advance our country are tarred and feathered by the populace and the government rarely needs to lift a finger to silence them.

Re:Here in the rest of the West we dont (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33853472)

West > US

Re:Here in the West we self-censor (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33853602)

It's the same in most countries. As long as the masters keep their servants dumb, they will always be in control and there's nothing easier than producing dumb people.

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