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Apple Deprecates Their JVM

CmdrTaco posted more than 3 years ago | from the zomg-i'm-posting-a-java-story dept.

Java 451

Mortimer.CA writes "In some recent release notes Apple has deprecated their JVM: 'As of the release of Java for Mac OS X 10.6 Update 3, the version of Java that is ported by Apple, and that ships with Mac OS X, is deprecated.' In the past Sun (now Oracle) has always let Apple do this: 'Apple Computer supplies their own version of Java. Use the Software Update feature (available on the Apple menu) to check that you have the most up-to-date version of Java for your Mac.' I wonder how much heads-up Oracle was given for this change, and if the Java team has any code ready to go, or whether they'll have to ramp up porting for Mac OS 10.7 (aka 'Lion')."

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451 comments

Plenty of heads up. (1)

BasilBrush (643681) | more than 3 years ago | (#33972268)

I wonder how much heads-up Oracle was given for this change

Even if they if only just found out now, Lion is around 8 months away. How much time do they need to create an installer?

Re:Plenty of heads up. (4, Insightful)

jonabbey (2498) | more than 3 years ago | (#33972468)

They don't need to create an Installer, they need to create an entire port to a new operating system. The low-level threading and memory management, the GUI.. who wants their Java apps to be running under X11 on Mac?

Re:Plenty of heads up. (3, Insightful)

krazytekn0 (1069802) | more than 3 years ago | (#33972496)

Really? I mean doesn't that seem a little extreme, shouldn't it still work pretty close to the previous versions of OS X? Seriously just asking,

Re:Plenty of heads up. (3, Insightful)

JonySuede (1908576) | more than 3 years ago | (#33972570)

thing is apple did the first port, not SUN. I don't think that apple will graciously give there JRE code-base to oracle.

Re:Plenty of heads up. (1)

NatasRevol (731260) | more than 3 years ago | (#33972738)

And why do you think Apple wouldn't give their code-base to Oracle?

If Apple is looking to go to a standard Java from Oracle, that would only hurt Apple.

Re:Plenty of heads up. (4, Informative)

kthreadd (1558445) | more than 3 years ago | (#33972632)

Java on the Mac have always been maintained by Apple, they licensed it about fifteen years ago from Sun. There has never been a Sun Java for Macs. I don't know how much code is going back to Sun/Oracle but in worst case that may be nothing at all. The main problem is that Java by itself has no support for things like the Mac Aqua UI, that's all additions made by Apple. In the late 90's when the Mac wasn't going well Apple decided to license Java and fix those things since Sun wasn't likely to put much time and effort on it. It's actually really good and well done.

I thought JAVA was supposed to be crossplatform (0, Flamebait)

viralMeme (1461143) | more than 3 years ago | (#33972560)

"They don't need to create an Installer, they need to create an entire port to a new operating system. The low-level threading and memory management, the GUI.. who wants their Java apps to be running under X11 on Mac?"

Re:I thought JAVA was supposed to be crossplatform (3, Informative)

characterZer0 (138196) | more than 3 years ago | (#33972672)

Binaries for the JVM are cross platform. The JVM itself is written for the platform. If you write a Java application and compile it on Windows, the compiled version will run on a JVM on Mac. But the Windows JVM will not run on a Mac.

Re:I thought JAVA was supposed to be crossplatform (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33972688)

"They don't need to create an Installer, they need to create an entire port to a new operating system. The low-level threading and memory management, the GUI.. who wants their Java apps to be running under X11 on Mac?"

Yes, if you're writing apps *for* the Java platform.
Not if you're *writing* a Java platform.

i.e. if you take the current plain vanilla OpenJDK and build it to run on Mac OS X, it uses X11 for rendering instead of Apple's (Quartz, is it?) rendering engine.

Re:I thought JAVA was supposed to be crossplatform (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33972748)

Java applications are supposed to be cross-platform, but the runtime environment has to be written for the host platform. It's not pure Java that's accessing files on the OS filesystem, opening sockets, painting dialog boxes on the screen, etc.

Re:Plenty of heads up. (1)

cindyann (1916572) | more than 3 years ago | (#33972674)

Threading? Memory Management? Why exactly? OS X is, after all, just Unix. Yeah, Apple might have some something clever in there, but I honestly doubt there's anything world changing.

The GUI though--- That's a whole 'nuther ball of wax.

Re:Plenty of heads up. (2, Insightful)

NatasRevol (731260) | more than 3 years ago | (#33972750)

You might want to go read up on Grand Central Dispatch.

Java banned from the Mac App store... (5, Informative)

recoiledsnake (879048) | more than 3 years ago | (#33972604)

From the Mac App Store guidelines:

2.24

        Apps that use deprecated or optionally installed technologies (e.g., Java, Rosetta) will be rejected

Patents (usually) wouldn't worry Apple (3, Informative)

ciaran_o_riordan (662132) | more than 3 years ago | (#33972270)

Oracle's patent moves probably didn't help, but Apple's normally not a company to be afraid of software patents - they have a big enough portfolio of their own.

http://en.swpat.org/wiki/Java_and_patents [swpat.org]

(Phone patents are another beast - they're held by companies that Apple often doesn't have as long a history of dealing with and they don't yet have patent non-aggression pacts)

Re:Patents (usually) wouldn't worry Apple (3, Interesting)

rwa2 (4391) | more than 3 years ago | (#33972422)

Meh, I could see them possibly doing this to strengthen Oracle's suit against Google's Dalvik VM in Android.

Or possibly Apple wants to introduce the straightjacket-in-a-walled-garden appstore approach to their desktop in addition to iOS, so they're starting to make moves to discourage the distribution of portable Java apps the same way they inhibit Flash on iOS.

Other than that, seems like a bunch of maneuverings between companies and technologies I don't really care all that much about. But at least hopefully it'll keep the fanbois who like chatting about soap opera politics preoccupied for a bit.

Re:Patents (usually) wouldn't worry Apple (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33972442)

Apple took Sun's ZFS out of OS X because of patent litigation from NetApp so I'm not inclined to agree with you.

Re:Patents (usually) wouldn't worry Apple (4, Insightful)

cindyann (1916572) | more than 3 years ago | (#33972696)

And all along I thought it was because it just wasn't ready for production use.

The BSDs are still working on getting ZFS good enough to use. Everyone I knew that tried it on OS X said it was shit.

P0st (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33972282)

Fristy p0st?

Why do fireworks die?

Java is dead, long live objc

So they are dropping another tech (2, Insightful)

Superken7 (893292) | more than 3 years ago | (#33972296)

So they have dropped default support for flash, then java, now they just launched their app store.

This is really starting to look more and more like the iphone. I just hope they don't start dropping multitasking and third party software sources.
As long as users are able to install non-appstore apps, install flash and install java, I'm fine with it.

Re:So they are dropping another tech (1)

Superken7 (893292) | more than 3 years ago | (#33972306)

with drop default support I meant "not installed by default", could also mean stopped supporting, I'm not sure

Re:So they are dropping another tech (3, Insightful)

DJRumpy (1345787) | more than 3 years ago | (#33972440)

No, they simply depreciated the 'Apple' version of Java, meaning it will probably be discontinued in Lion. I suspect that due to the changes in ownership over Java that they will now handle things like everyone else and get their java from Oracle. They aren't 'dropping' Java or anything of the sort. You'll simply go to Oracle to install it rather than getting it out of the box.

I would imagine Oracle asked for this, or Apple simply decided it wasn't worth the hassle of maintaining their own java machine.

Re:So they are dropping another tech (5, Insightful)

DrgnDancer (137700) | more than 3 years ago | (#33972648)

Or they looked at the Android lawsuit and said "Hmm, I don't *think* we're breaking any laws, but why take chances?" Oracle is playing a different game with Java than Sun did and personally I'd want to stay out of it as much as possible. There's lots of reasons they may have done this and with ~8 months notice Oracle has plenty of time to build their own JVM.

Re:So they are dropping another tech (1)

jtdennis (77869) | more than 3 years ago | (#33972650)

this is good for the end user IMO. I remember sometime over the last year Apple was bit with a security hole by including an older version of Flash in an update. Their Java version also usually lags behind the current releases. By not including both the end user will be able to update them more frequently or not have them installed at all if they don't use it. I can see people that don't have a need for Java at all.

Re:So they are dropping another tech (1, Insightful)

HelloKitty2 (1585373) | more than 3 years ago | (#33972382)

It looks like they don't want any non exclusively-for-apple developers. I'm glad Android is gaining momentum, and that MeeGo is soon to be released, so people have a choice of using open platforms.

Re:So they are dropping another tech (0, Flamebait)

erroneus (253617) | more than 3 years ago | (#33972452)

In many ways, Apple is helping to move old tech out. Java, some will say, is still quite relevant. Apparently Apple does not agree. The push for getting everyone into HTML 5 using Javascript and all of those technologies necessitates getting rid of the old ways.

This push is good for the whole internet environment and with the push for adoption of real internet standards faithfully implemented, this is also an effective dig against Microsoft for having controlled "The Internet" with a big blue "e" for so long. Now with MSIE being a reported less-than-50%, it is just about time to start ignoring MSIE. (Furthermore, we will see an end to various web-interfaces for devices and appliances working only with MSIE... that day will not come soon enough)

Of course there is more to computing than the web, but predictions are that it will not last long in that state for a great many users.

Apple seems to have selected its vision for the future and is pushing for it.

Re:So they are dropping another tech (4, Insightful)

bbtom (581232) | more than 3 years ago | (#33972592)

The push for getting everyone into HTML 5 using Javascript and all of those technologies necessitates getting rid of the old ways.

By which you mean the JVM? It has nothing to do with "internet standards" ffs.

You do know that 'Java' is to 'JavaScript' as 'car' is to 'carpet'. Beyond a few shared letters for early buzzword compliance, and things like the Rhino interpreter, there is no real relationship between the two.

All those sexy HTML5/JavaScript apps have to be written in programming languages and hosted on servers. And plenty of people are building on top of the JVM. Large chunks of both Twitter and Foursquare are written in Scala, a JVM language. Why? Oh, something about how it is good for long-running processes due to something ridiculous like a million engineer-hours going into JVM development.

If we should get rid of technology simply because it is old, let's get rid of C. No, wait, let's not. Because it is a useful and practical technology, and we should base our technical decisions on technical merit not on buzzword compliance and what appeals to Web 2.0 shiny-seekers.

people... relax. (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33972628)

Java is not going away for SERVER SIDE development. What will replace it? .NET? (joke)

Apple isn't going to 'stop supporting Java'.

Re:people... relax. (3, Insightful)

surgen (1145449) | more than 3 years ago | (#33972752)

Apple isn't going to 'stop supporting Java'.

Actually, if the JVM goes back to being a 3rd party system on OS X, which it seems like it will, this is exactly what they've done.

Re:So they are dropping another tech (3, Insightful)

AltairDusk (1757788) | more than 3 years ago | (#33972730)

I would have to disagree that HTML 5 is a suitable all-around replacement for Java.

Re:So they are dropping another tech (4, Insightful)

zlogic (892404) | more than 3 years ago | (#33972530)

And after removing Flash and Java and publishing the "We want the web to be open" public letter Apple still requires Quicktime to watch videos on their own website. Hypocrites.

Re:So they are dropping another tech (4, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33972626)

Other media players will probably support HTTP Live Streaming in a couple months. It's not like it's a proprietary format or anything- it's just a continuously updating MPEG-2 file sitting on a server. Quicktime continuously checks that file for updates and downloads just the new parts when they get uploaded. I'd rather they use that than Adobe's proprietary streaming format or Real's proprietary streaming format.

You are right.... (3, Interesting)

recoiledsnake (879048) | more than 3 years ago | (#33972616)

From the Mac App Store guidelines:

2.24
        Apps that use deprecated or optionally installed technologies (e.g., Java, Rosetta) will be rejected

Looks like you're right.

Deprecate (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33972298)

deprecate (dpr-kt)
tr.v. deprecated, deprecating, deprecates
1. To express disapproval of; deplore.
2. To belittle; depreciate.
3. Computer Science To mark (a component of a software standard) as obsolete to warn against its use in the future so that it may be phased out.
[Latin dprecr, dprect-, to ward off by prayer : d-, de- + precr, to pray; see prek- in Indo-European roots.]
deprecatingly adv.
deprecation n.
deprecator n.
Usage Note: Deprecate originally meant "to pray in order to ward off something, ward off by prayer." Perhaps because the occasion of such prayers was invariably one of dread, the word developed the more general meaning of disapproval, as in this quotation from Frederick Douglass, "Those who profess to favor freedom, yet deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground." From here it was a small step to add the meaning "to make little of, disparage," what was once the proper meaning of depreciate. This meaning of depreciate appears to have been overwhelmed by the word's use in the world of finances, where it means "to diminish (or cause to diminish) in price or value." In similar fashion, the "disparage" sense of deprecate may be driving out the word's other uses. In our 2002 survey, only 50 percent of the Usage Panel accepted deprecate when it meant "to express disapproval of" in the sentence He advocates a well-designed program of behavior modification and deprecates the early use of medication to address behavioral problems. Moreover, a similar example in the same survey elicited the same split in opinions among Panelists: He acknowledged that some students had been wronged by the board's handling of the matter and deprecated the board's decision to intervene. It seems clear, then, that the Panel has very mixed feelings about the use of deprecate to mean "disapprove of." But a great majority of Panelists accept deprecate when used to mean "make little of, disparage." Fully 78 percent accepted the example He deprecated his own contribution to the success of the project, claiming that others had done just as much. It may be that the widespread use of the word in the compound adjective self-deprecating has helped bolster this use of the verb.

Abandonware (1)

digitaldc (879047) | more than 3 years ago | (#33972310)

It's kind of funny to read the definition of deprecate:
In manner that deprecates; insulting; belittling - to express disapproval of; to recommend against use of; to pray against!

And then read how they are enabling 'Sudden Termination' and 'Garbage Collection' - take THAT JAVA!

Mac as ultimate dev machine no more? (3, Interesting)

samkass (174571) | more than 3 years ago | (#33972314)

In the past I've heard macs referred to as the ultimate developer's machine, with a full UNIX, all the gnu tools, a nice UI (with X if you need it), and nicely integrated laptop hardware. But Java is still one of the top languages on the planet, so if Apple really stops keeping it up to date that could put a nail in that coffin. Heck, I'm pretty sure the Apple Store has a big pile of Java back there...

Re:Mac as ultimate dev machine no more? (5, Funny)

ceejayoz (567949) | more than 3 years ago | (#33972336)

This dev is more concerned about Minecraft not working...

Re:Mac as ultimate dev machine no more? (2, Insightful)

EricTheRed (5613) | more than 3 years ago | (#33972356)

I still fall back to my various Linux boxen a lot but for the actual IDE, I find OSX does fulfill the so called 'ultimate developer's machine' - I actually know a former MS-SQL developer collegue who has converted because it does work.

Let's hope either OpenJDK or IcedTea can fill in the gaps...

The danger is that they are going to force people down the Lion/AppStore route on the desktop - and the size of the desktop user-base will probably surprise them and bite them where it hurts most, their wallet - not everything is iPhone/iPad

Re:Mac as ultimate dev machine no more? (2)

AltairDusk (1757788) | more than 3 years ago | (#33972766)

I personally didn't find Xcode that impressive (If that's the IDE you are referring to). The one thing I really miss from when I used my MBP is TextMate, it's simply a brilliant piece of software. I wouldn't quite call it an IDE but calling it an editor doesn't seem to do it justice so I won't attempt to classify it.

Re:Mac as ultimate dev machine no more? (4, Insightful)

FictionPimp (712802) | more than 3 years ago | (#33972360)

Honestly, with the talk of app stores, the ridiculous talk of macbook air's being the 'future of computing', and other things from yesterdays announcements, I will be keeping my eye closely on linux for the time being. I'm not sure I'm going to stay with Apple for my next computer. They seem to be going in a direction I'm not comfortable with.

Re:Mac as ultimate dev machine no more? (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33972412)

In the past I've heard macs referred to as the ultimate developer's machine, with a full UNIX, all the gnu tools, a nice UI (with X if you need it), and nicely integrated laptop hardware.

MacOS is actually based on the mach kernel, and not UNIX. /pedantic

The issue here is that java is full of security holes, and is being actively exploited in the wild. If you have a normal computer (ie a non-mac), then you can download & install the latest java version from sun/oracle.

But if you have a mac, you can't. Big brother Apple has decreed that mac users aren't smart enough to make their own decisions on installing updated versions java.

Your only choices are don't use java, or wait until Apple decides to release an updated version of java and hope you don't get pwned in the meantime.

Re:Mac as ultimate dev machine no more? (3, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33972558)

UNIX is a specification, not an implementation. Mac OS X 10.5 onwards on Intel are UNIX 03 certified /pedantic

Re:Mac as ultimate dev machine no more? (4, Informative)

beelsebob (529313) | more than 3 years ago | (#33972582)

MacOS is actually based on the mach kernel, and not UNIX. /pedantic

Mac OS X is actually based on the mach kernel, which, along with OS X's userland is a certified implementation of UNIX. /pedantic

Re:Mac as ultimate dev machine no more? (1)

BasilBrush (643681) | more than 3 years ago | (#33972596)

MacOS is actually based on the mach kernel, and not UNIX. /pedantic

That's not pedantic, that's confused. Linux might be (pedantically) a specific kernel, but UNIX isn't. Unix is a set of higher level standards, and OSX conforms, and is officially registered as a version of UNIX.

http://www.opengroup.org/openbrand/register/apple.htm [opengroup.org]

Unlike Linux, there is no way that OSX is not UNIX, including by what kernel it uses.

Big brother Apple has decreed that mac users aren't smart enough to make their own decisions on installing updated versions java.

I think maybe paranoid rather than pedantic describes you better. This move simply puts OSX in the same position as Windows. The user can install whatever version of Java he wants. But at some point in the future, there won't be one installed as part of of the OS.

Re:Mac as ultimate dev machine no more? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33972720)

UNIX as used by marketing is a set of standards.
UNIX/Unix as used by technical people is the big family of operating systems derived from the original operating system.
BSD is Unix in the second sense and as OS X is a mix of BSD and Mach it's logical that it is a real Unix too.

Re:Mac as ultimate dev machine no more? (1)

gabebear (251933) | more than 3 years ago | (#33972426)

I imagine this is more that Apple is moving away from Java as a way of making desktop apps and less that they are moving away from Java working on OSX. In 2005 Apple deprecated the Java Cocoa Bridge, which was probably a big reason they still maintained their own branch of the JVM ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cocoa_(API)#Implementations [wikipedia.org] ).

I'm guessing Apple is now expecting Oracle to package versions of the JVM for OSX, which makes sense.

Re:Mac as ultimate dev machine no more? (3, Insightful)

BasilBrush (643681) | more than 3 years ago | (#33972454)

Anyone who wants Java can install it. Oracle don't release a Mac version right now because previously Apple have done that work for them. But that'll no doubt change if Oracle are still wanting to promote Java. And even if not, GPL says someone else will.

Re:Mac as ultimate dev machine no more? (2, Informative)

ThrowAwaySociety (1351793) | more than 3 years ago | (#33972488)

In the past I've heard macs referred to as the ultimate developer's machine, with a full UNIX, all the gnu tools, a nice UI (with X if you need it), and nicely integrated laptop hardware. But Java is still one of the top languages on the planet, so if Apple really stops keeping it up to date that could put a nail in that coffin. Heck, I'm pretty sure the Apple Store has a big pile of Java back there...

The Linux foundation doesn't develop a Linux JVM.
Microsoft's JVM was awful and incompatible.

Both those platforms are still widely used for Java development and deployment, in spite of depending on a third-party JVM.

Re:Mac as ultimate dev machine no more? (4, Insightful)

BarryJacobsen (526926) | more than 3 years ago | (#33972506)

In the past I've heard macs referred to as the ultimate developer's machine, with a full UNIX, all the gnu tools, a nice UI (with X if you need it), and nicely integrated laptop hardware. But Java is still one of the top languages on the planet, so if Apple really stops keeping it up to date that could put a nail in that coffin. Heck, I'm pretty sure the Apple Store has a big pile of Java back there...

Apple doesn't maintain a distribution of python, but you're still able to run Python on OS X. The only thing that's really going to change is that it won't be Apple doing the work, it will be Oracle.

Ugh... (1)

EricTheRed (5613) | more than 3 years ago | (#33972316)

As I use my Mac as my primary java development environment (ok still on 10.5.x but about to finally go to snow leopard), this does say, wtf is going to happen after this latest update?

I.e. is Snoracle going to support macs directly or are we going to wait for OpenJDK etc?

Re:Ugh... (-1, Flamebait)

Joce640k (829181) | more than 3 years ago | (#33972436)

Either (a) Get a proper computer, or (b) Start using a proper programming language

Re:Ugh... (0, Offtopic)

EricTheRed (5613) | more than 3 years ago | (#33972476)

Hmmm, let me see...

* hardware wise my 3yo MBP still outruns most machines in the office (ignoring the fact its personal hardware)
* os wise it's just as good as Linux (usually use Ubuntu)

So the old mac addage doesn't really hold up.

As for java... http://langpop.com/ [langpop.com] and look at what's the most popular....

To quote Scotty - use the correct tool for the job... not "Start using a proper programming language" bollocks...

Re:Ugh... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33972554)

Popularity does not imply quality.

For example, look at how PHP is ranked well above both Python and Ruby in that chart. PHP is adequate for some things, but there is no way in hell that it's a better language.

Re:Ugh... (1)

Joce640k (829181) | more than 3 years ago | (#33972636)

Variable variables... [php.net] , 'nuff said.

That thing should have been shot at birth...

Re:Ugh... (1)

EricTheRed (5613) | more than 3 years ago | (#33972680)

Agreed, it doesn't imply quality - the problem is how do you split the two?

Saying that I'd use perl or something else if its the right tool for the job - look at say mercurial which is mostly python (& some C) - I'm not that fixed to a specific language to start the flame wars some people seem to... that url was the only one I had to hand at the time...

Re:Ugh... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33972594)

Snark fail. WTF is "proper"?

Re:Ugh... (1)

Joce640k (829181) | more than 3 years ago | (#33972652)

"Proper" is a bit like when you put your real name and email instead of "Anonymous coward"...

Way to go, Apple. (1, Interesting)

psergiu (67614) | more than 3 years ago | (#33972318)

With this, Mac OS X users get all their OS updates automatically from one place. Too bad Microsoft & the various BSD & Linux vendors are not able to do this too.

PS: HP does this too for the HP-UX Java releases (except for the automatic updates): http://www.hp.com/go/java [hp.com]

PPS: Java IS part of the OS because without Java you cannot run Minecraft. :-)

Re:Way to go, Apple. (1)

IBBoard (1128019) | more than 3 years ago | (#33972482)

Huhwhatnow? Am I just reading that wrong? Apple's custom rebuild of Java was available from the update centre, the same as most other Apple bits. Windows users have to have yet another background updater running. Linux users get Java from their repos (the same as any sane person) and get updates automatically, the same as Apple used to.

I'm still confused by the message. Is Apple ditching Java altogether, or just is custom rebuild?

Re:Way to go, Apple. (1)

gabebear (251933) | more than 3 years ago | (#33972578)

I'm hoping the same as Python and all the other UNIX-ish stuff. They are ditching their custom version(which isn't all the custom anymore), but will hopefully still include a JVM.

Not including a JVM would be a pain in the ass for Java developers, but they might not want to encourage Java-based Mac apps...

Re:Way to go, Apple. (1)

DrgnDancer (137700) | more than 3 years ago | (#33972728)

Apple is no longer making their own Java implementation. Oracle will have to do the work. This is not scary or evil. Java on the Mac will now work like Java on almost every other platform. You'll go get the JVM/JDK from the Sun-Oracle website and a background updater will inform you of your daily "ZOMG, we found another critical security bug" update. Whether Oracle asked Apple to do this, Apple did it on their own because of concerns about Oracle's recent litigious streak, they did it to screw Oracle, or they just didn't feel like maintaining their own JVM anymore is pretty much an open question; but there will still be Java on Macs.

Re:Way to go, Apple. (1)

djdavetrouble (442175) | more than 3 years ago | (#33972528)

They are just moving it to the App store, relax everyone.

Re:Way to go, Apple. (1)

js_sebastian (946118) | more than 3 years ago | (#33972544)

With this, Mac OS X users get all their OS updates automatically from one place. Too bad Microsoft & the various BSD & Linux vendors are not able to do this too.

Did you ever actually use linux? Any linux distribution from this decade has a centralized installation/upgrade mechanism such as apt-get, etc. This is one huge usability advantage over windows, that makes linux in my opinion much more usable than windows at the moment. Plus, it is an open mechanism, because if you want a software that is not provided by your distribution you can add a new repository source and it will get auto-updated just like all the rest.

Has Minecraft become Java's killer app? (1)

LWATCDR (28044) | more than 3 years ago | (#33972684)

I have not tried Minecraft yet so I had no idea it was written in Java.
Wow I wonder if that will slow down the "Java programs all suck" FUD.
Actually I have very mixed feelings about Apple dropping Java support. Java support on the Mac is super integrated and really does just work most of the time.
The downside is one of my Java applications was failing on the Mac and for the life of me I could figure out why. Then Apple pushed an update and all was well.
I was testing on Windows and Linux with no problem but on the mac...
I will say that Java programs on the mac actually look better than on Linux or Windows. I believe that Apple did a better job at integrating the Java UI with the Mac UI than Sun did with Windows and or Linux. Frankly on Linux it is a matter of which UI as much as quality.
I hope Oracle steps up and produces a very good OS/X version of Java.

A move by Apple, or Oracle? (1)

benwiggy (1262536) | more than 3 years ago | (#33972320)

Who knows whether this is the result of some move on Oracle's part, rather than something Apple have suddenly decided to do?

Re:A move by Apple, or Oracle? (4, Insightful)

mysidia (191772) | more than 3 years ago | (#33972420)

This means that the Apple-produced runtime will not be maintained at the same level, and may be removed from future versions of Mac OS X.

Obvious reason: people aren't using the Apple-produced runtime in Mac Applications?

Applications developed in Objective-C / Cocoa are more specific to the OS X platform, providing Apple a competitive advantage when developers build their apps using Cocoa, instead of something portable like Java.

Not in Apple's best interest for Mac apps to be developed using Java.

Not only can they be run on other platforms, but Java-based apps may not conform to Apple UI design guidelines

Re:A move by Apple, or Oracle? (1)

Kjella (173770) | more than 3 years ago | (#33972620)

I suspect a bit of both. Apple is pushing java out of the mobile space with iOS, and probably wants to set themselves up as controlling the Cocoa toolkit that runs on everything from iPhones via iPads to OS X to OS X Server. As long as you stay in the Apple sphere, of course.

However, I don't think the timing with Oracle is coincidental either, with the Android lawsuit and so on I think the see the opportunity to "sink" java as a development platform. Microsoft pushes .NET, Apple pushes Cocoa, Google pushes their "this is not Java", Linux is running in 50 different directions. Oracle is going to have to work hard to market Java on their own.

Similar to Flash (4, Insightful)

BasilBrush (643681) | more than 3 years ago | (#33972346)

This seems like a similar move to the obsoleting of Flash. Cross platform app development was useful when Apple was struggling to compete. Now Apple doesn't see any particular need for cross platform apps, because the breadth of app types is already covered by native Cocoa apps. They won't exclude Java in the way that they excluded Flash on the iPhone. But there's no need for them to spend development time on bundling it with the OS.

Re:Similar to Flash (2, Insightful)

jonabbey (2498) | more than 3 years ago | (#33972474)

There are a lot of custom, in-house apps developed with Java specifically to handle cross-platform issues.

We couldn't have done a lot of our apps if we had to write separate versions for Windows, Linux, and Mac.

Re:Similar to Flash (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33972756)

Same. That's why I use Qt. Just as easy to write as Java, and better platform integration and performance.

Annoying, but maybe a silver lining? (1)

stefanb (21140) | more than 3 years ago | (#33972362)

Unless Oracle steps up and makes Mac OS X a primary platform for JDK releases, this might be rather annoying. Ultimately, I might be forced to do development on Linux or Windows. That would blow.

But maybe this decision encourages some group to package a kick ass JDK, and have more timely updates and developer snapshots... one can dream.

WIth the App store and Flash removal, I'm not keeping my hopes up though.

AppStore (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33972394)

When all you can install on a Mac needs to be installed via their AppStore, there is no need to have Java. Could their strategy for future OS-X version be more apparent?
If you don't like that you can always install Linux though.

part of new software store? (1)

Danathar (267989) | more than 3 years ago | (#33972398)

Java maintained by Apple has always been WAY behind what everybody else is using. I'm glad Apple is going to ditch it and leave it up to others.

  Flash and Java will probably end up in the new Mac App store which will mean automatic updates but via the vendor that supplies them.

My reaction to this is one of mild joy and "whatever".

Re:part of new software store? (1)

gabebear (251933) | more than 3 years ago | (#33972514)

Yep, Apple's Java updates remind me of running Debian-stable... Usable, but missing the new shiny stuff I want. Apple's current JVM is nothing special(now that the JavaCocoa Bridge is removed), but at least not horribly out of date.

I do hope that Apple included an Oracle supplied version of the JVM with future versions of OSX...

Re:part of new software store? (1)

ThrowAwaySociety (1351793) | more than 3 years ago | (#33972548)

Java maintained by Apple has always been WAY behind what everybody else is using. I'm glad Apple is going to ditch it and leave it up to others.

The odd thing is, with the release in question (Update 3), Apple's JVM is 1.6.0_22, exactly the same as the latest release for Linux/Solaris/Winows. This is the first time I can remember that that was the case.

watch oracle do nothing (2, Interesting)

Ryanrule (1657199) | more than 3 years ago | (#33972428)

tell apple they dont get java if they dont use a standard installer.

Re:watch oracle do nothing (2, Insightful)

BasilBrush (643681) | more than 3 years ago | (#33972638)

Watch Apple not care.

I'm curious... (1)

acoustix (123925) | more than 3 years ago | (#33972466)

Why was Apple allowed to provide their own JVM software and Microsoft was sued for making their own JVM?

Re:I'm curious... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33972536)

Why was Apple allowed to provide their own JVM software and Microsoft was sued for making their own JVM?

Like all JDK/JVM licensees (IBM, HP, Excelsior, etc.), Apple licenses the code from Sun/Oracle and presumably licenses and passes the TCK (compatibility test suite).
Microsoft did as well, but they violated the license agreement, hence the Sun/Microsoft lawsuit.

Re:I'm curious... (1)

tuffy (10202) | more than 3 years ago | (#33972552)

Because Microsoft's wasn't compliant with the specification.

Re:I'm curious... (3, Informative)

Thomasje (709120) | more than 3 years ago | (#33972564)

Sun did not sue Microsoft for making their own JVM; they sued Microsoft for making an incompatible JVM, while using the Java trademark -- in direct and deliberate violation of the Java licensing terms.

In short, Microsoft feared and sought to impede the development of network effects that cross-platform technology like Netscape Navigator and Java might enjoy and use to challenge Microsoft's monopoly. Another internal Microsoft document indicates that the plan was not simply to blunt Java/browser cross-platform momentum, but to destroy the cross-platform threat entirely, with the "Strategic Objective" described as to "Kill cross-platform Java by grow[ing] the polluted Java market."

More... [wikipedia.org]

Re:I'm curious... (1)

Graymalkin (13732) | more than 3 years ago | (#33972576)

Microsoft's J++ was not fully compatible with the Java spec at the time and introduced it's own class libraries in the standard Java namespaces IIRC. They claimed their JVM was compatible with Sun's Java even though it really wasn't. If you targeted J++ your app wouldn't run in any other Java environments. Apple's Java implementation is a full implementation of the J2SE spec and all the Cocoa bridging stuff was properly labeled as extenstions. If you write a J2SE app on Apple's JVM it will run on any other J2SE JVM.

Re:I'm curious... (1)

realinvalidname (529939) | more than 3 years ago | (#33972588)

Both Apple and Microsoft were commercial Java licensees. Apple's JVMs included all of the standard classes, plus some additional hooks to Mac-specific functionality that were clearly packaged as extensions (com.apple.*, quicktime.*, etc.). Microsoft's VM deliberately left out core functionality -- JNI for native calls and RMI for remote procedure calls -- and disguised Windows-specific calls as if they were typical Java calls, which could result in Java code that would only run on Windows.

I don't think it's a matter of "allowing" anyways. Sun/Oracle wants companies to purchase Java licenses. They do offer their own JVM for Windows, Linux, and Solaris, but that's mostly to keep developers happy. Even on these platforms, you have always been able to install third-party JVMs, like IBM's, or Oracle's JRocket.

Re:I'm curious... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33972602)

Because Microsoft introduced incompatibilities into their version which (1) broke the license under which they were allowed to make one (and call it Java) and (2) because they intentionally tried to undermine Sun and use their monopoly position to distribute this version to users (Embrace, Extend, Extinguish). Apple always complied with Sun's requirements.

Re:I'm curious... (1)

itsdapead (734413) | more than 3 years ago | (#33972606)

It isn't Apple's "own" JVM software - it is still the Sun/Oracle JVM. Apple maintains the OS X port/distribution of Java.

Re:I'm curious... (1)

Stormin (86907) | more than 3 years ago | (#33972614)

Microsoft was sued for breach of contract around their JVM - they had a contract with Sun allowing them to produce it. Presumably Apple had some similar sort of agreement.

Re:I'm curious... (1)

LWATCDR (28044) | more than 3 years ago | (#33972676)

Easy.
Apple followed the rules. The did extend Java but did it in way that didn't break portability.
Microsoft made an incompatible Java in violation of the agreement with Sun. They added all sorts of "windows only" features.

What about servers? (4, Interesting)

andymadigan (792996) | more than 3 years ago | (#33972520)

I don't see much use of Java on the desktop these days (aside from a few specific applications), but I certainly see it used a lot in server environments. I suppose Apple will also apply this to OS X server? So if you want an Apple server you can't run the applications you've been running up to this point? They're going to shrink their already small server share.

Also, Slashdot, I set this account to use the "classic" interface, why are you making me click buttons to see comments now?! I just want to see the page, not have to keep clicking "show more". This comment entry box is terrible too, the "Reply" button is too close to the box itself.

Re:What about servers? (1)

EricTheRed (5613) | more than 3 years ago | (#33972646)

Rarely on the desktop myself... & for me that amounts to Netbeans. The rest is server-side, which fortunately reads as Linux. However for development it's a problem.

Re:What about servers? (0, Redundant)

1001011010110101 (305349) | more than 3 years ago | (#33972744)

Also, Slashdot, I set this account to use the "classic" interface, why are you making me click buttons to see comments now?! I just want to see the page, not have to keep clicking "show more". This comment entry box is terrible too, the "Reply" button is too close to the box itself.

Seems like I'm not the only one. First I had to figure out how to show the full text for all the page, and now I have to browse the comments in a frame 80% of my browser because I'm stuck with a sidebar (that wont scroll, btw). This seriously sucks, I want my classic UI back!!! Also, wtf is the checkbox with no text!?

Question (0, Redundant)

pak9rabid (1011935) | more than 3 years ago | (#33972534)

How come Apple was allowed to distribute their own JVM, but back in the day Sun slammed the shit out of MS for doing the same?

Re:Question (2, Informative)

LDAPMAN (930041) | more than 3 years ago | (#33972642)

Apple did it with Suns approval and they didn't make changes that made it incompatible.

Re:Question (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33972706)

Because MS "extended the functionality" of java so software written for MS's JVM often wouldn't run on Sun's. Part of MS's embrace and extend strategy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend_and_extinguish

IBM join to OpenJDK, Oracle merges JVM (1)

Demablogia (1149365) | more than 3 years ago | (#33972550)

IBM join to OpenJDK, Oracle merges JVMs ... If Apple deprecated its JVM, this can be the end of years of confusion about which JVM to use.

So, is this a reason to drop Apple hardware? (2, Insightful)

dkf (304284) | more than 3 years ago | (#33972584)

We have rather a lot of internally-developed applications in Java, and some of them are substantial. Since there's not a hope in hell of us porting millions of lines of Java code to Objective-C, no matter how much Apple spins things, should we be considering saying in future that Apple hardware is no longer a supported platform and that all users will have to migrate to Linux or Windows on their desktops and laptops instead? (While it is possible to use Apple hardware to run non-OSX, there's no real point in buying it specially for the purpose of running non-OSX when other hardware with a lower price premium will do a perfectly adequate job of it.)

Mind you, adequate availability of a JVM for the platform from another vendor (e.g., Oracle) could well be an acceptable solution. It's just a shame that the announcement is not clearer in this respect. But then it's not exactly like Apple are very good at providing proper support for developers who aren't targeting Jobs's latest platform du jour.

RELAX (1)

LDAPMAN (930041) | more than 3 years ago | (#33972612)

Apple's JVM was packaged a bit different than all the other *nix JVMs and they had their own unique way of allowing you to select JVM versions. The changes in this update make it easier to install, select , and use a third party JVM that is packaged in the more conventional way. I suspect this is the first step in moving to an Oracle supplied JVM or an open JVM.

Apple's fault, or Oracle's? (1)

Nimey (114278) | more than 3 years ago | (#33972618)

Maybe Ellison wants the official JVM to be the only such one.

A vendetta against Java and Flash? (1)

macwhizkid (864124) | more than 3 years ago | (#33972630)

This comes the same day that users report the new MacBook Air doesn't have Flash preinstalled; and while you can install it yourself, Safari doesn't prompt you to do so (just displays a generic "missing plugin" over Flash content and ads).

Call it a smart business move, a deluded fantasy, or anything in between, but Apple seems to have decided to play hardball with middleware developers. Clearly they think they support all the standards and APIs anyone could ever need, and with the opening of the Mac App Store on the horizon (which will, in all likelihood, provide apps that duplicate a lot of the lightweight functionality that Java apps tend to do now) don't feel the need to do Adobe and Oracle's work anymore.

Trying to comment from Java Client... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33972640)

[ Java starting up ] ... that took so long, so my comment, I am can see this a good thing [ JVM Garbage collection; world pauses.. ] .. so annoying, so as I was saying, moving from Java can only be a good thing [ Java exploited by one of the many recent holes and malware vectors ] ... DISCONNECT..£$£^&^&^&

Anything to stop Android (1)

Captain Spam (66120) | more than 3 years ago | (#33972708)

So, thanks to the turtleneck's power trip, it'll be harder for me to continue developing Android apps or the Android OS on my MacBook, or, for that matter, continue using Eclipse (and not Xcode) in general? Man. Why on earth would they want to do THAT?</sarcasm>

Good thing I'm not particularly attached to my MacBook. And that I've been in the market for a new laptop anyway...

Another move towards iOS (1)

Mr_Silver (213637) | more than 3 years ago | (#33972712)

It looks like Apple are taking another small step towards making OSX more like iOS with their "you can only develop your applications in these approved languages" rule.

Sure, there is currently nothing to stop people downloading and installing Java on OSX, but this makes it just that little bit more painful to install a Java app for the end user over, say, a native application.

Personally I avoid running anything in Java on the basis that I don't want a honking great JVM just for one app. Oh and that the JVM has an annoying tendency to want to update itself a little too often for my liking.

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