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Why Silicon Valley Won't Be the Green Car Detroit

timothy posted more than 3 years ago | from the 300-miles-ought-to-be-enough-for-anybody dept.

Transportation 329

thecarchik writes "NPR boldly pronounced, 'The new automobile of the 21st century is likely to benefit from the culture of Silicon Valley, where people are used to taking a chip, a cell or an idea and working on it until it becomes something big.' We've thought about it for a year, and discussed it with many people. And we don't believe it. Silicon Valley is the wrong place to build an auto industry, for three main reasons."

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WTF are the 3 main reasons? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33979204)

Hello! Keep me in fucking suspense like that....

Only one real reason (2, Insightful)

megaditto (982598) | more than 3 years ago | (#33979228)

Too many liberals. And I am not even trolling...

Re:Only one real reason (4, Interesting)

MyFirstNameIsPaul (1552283) | more than 3 years ago | (#33979410)

What's funny is how they create bogus metrics to support how wonderful our state is. The one I see most often that really irritates me is the BTU/citizen. They'll state it in a few different ways, but basically they're claiming that because we use less energy per citizen our state is more efficient than everywhere else, but what the metric is really demonstrating is that we have no manufacturing here. Factories require gobs of electricity.

Re:Only one real reason (1)

Monkeedude1212 (1560403) | more than 3 years ago | (#33979670)

Is it true that in Orange County you either live next to a celebrity or on a beach?

Re:Only one real reason (3, Funny)

mosb1000 (710161) | more than 3 years ago | (#33979842)

No, all the celebrities live on the beach. So it's both or neither. Also, they don't exactly live there. It's their vacation home.

Re:Only one real reason (2, Insightful)

MrCawfee (13910) | more than 3 years ago | (#33979748)

California uses less energy per person because of the weather not because of the lack of manufacturing.

manufacturing is never going to come back to California not because of taxes, not because of environmental laws, but because the cost of living is so high. and it is high because it is a desirable place to live.

Re:Only one real reason (4, Interesting)

MyFirstNameIsPaul (1552283) | more than 3 years ago | (#33979902)

I don't think Modesto, Stockton, Fresno, Bakersfield, or pretty much the entire Central Valley is considered a 'desirable place to live'. And I'm not clear on how running air conditioning 24/7 throughout most of the state reduces energy consumption, nor can even the highest consumer energy consumption compare to myriad widget factories producing millions of widgets each with only 1000 employees or less. How many humans even work in a modern auto plant?

Re:Only one real reason (1)

BJ_Covert_Action (1499847) | more than 3 years ago | (#33980116)

Oh nonsense! Cows and corn seem to love living in the Central Valley! Oh, you mean desirable for humans? Yeah....that could be true then...

Re:Only one real reason (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33979450)

Inb4 (Score: -1, Flamebait)

Re:Only one real reason (4, Funny)

Jah-Wren Ryel (80510) | more than 3 years ago | (#33979468)

Too many liberals. And I am not even trolling...

Totally. If there is one thing about liberals, they are anti-progress.

Re:Only one real reason (4, Insightful)

AnonymousClown (1788472) | more than 3 years ago | (#33979476)

Too many liberals. And I am not even trolling...

Well, it can't be in a conservative state because they'll only build internal combustion engine powered cars that go VROOOOOM! Electric cars are just too gay. So, it's going to have to be a moderate state.

BTW, it's a scientific fact that men who drive minivans or electric cars spontaneously grow vaginas.

Re:Only one real reason (1)

ickleberry (864871) | more than 3 years ago | (#33980002)

Shit, i better cancel my order [alliedelectric.co.uk] then...

Re:Only one real reason (1)

Sponge Bath (413667) | more than 3 years ago | (#33980090)

Does my hybrid make me a hermaphrodite?

Re:Only one real reason (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33980164)

BTW, it's a scientific fact that men who drive minivans or electric cars spontaneously grow vaginas.

I see many orders for minivans and electric cars.

Everyone knows that there is more fun to be had with a vagina.

Designed in California. Made in [not California] (5, Insightful)

perpenso (1613749) | more than 3 years ago | (#33979566)

Like the fine print on Apple and other hi tech company product packaging tells us: Designed in California. Made in [not California].

Regarding the electric cars companies currently in California. Maybe some cars will be built in California while the company is still in a start up and "prototyping" mode (this can be years after starting to sell to early adopters). However when the company matures and the company perspective evolves from development to manufacturing the factories will move out of state. Especially if viable competitors appear.

Silicon Valley may be a hub for design but other parts of the country have far more expertise in nuts-and-bolts manufacturing. The components of a car may be incredibly hi tech but auto manufacturing will largely remain bolting and welding components together.

Re:Designed in California. Made in [not California (3, Insightful)

LWATCDR (28044) | more than 3 years ago | (#33980158)

But I doubt that it will be Detroit. Texas and other states without the UAW controlling the governments will get the majority of new factories.
 

Re:Only one real reason (0, Flamebait)

Culture20 (968837) | more than 3 years ago | (#33979642)

Too many liberals. And I am not even trolling...

Explains why NPR is so boldly pronouncing it, if they're not even hiding their bias any more (Juan Williams fired for fox appearance).

Re:Only one real reason (2, Insightful)

Mongoose Disciple (722373) | more than 3 years ago | (#33979826)

(Juan Williams fired for fox appearance).

How about we unpack that story a little further to something like:

"Juan Williams fired for saying that when he sees Muslims getting on a plane with him he's afraid they're going to blow it up."

Re:Only one real reason (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33979946)

Seems like a rational fear to have. I would cancel my flight immediately if I observed anyone getting on board that appeared to be of middle eastern origin. You are welcome to die for your "principles". I, on the other hand, have a family to look after and going down in flames on a hijacked airplane is certainly not part of the plan.

Re:Only one real reason (1, Troll)

Mongoose Disciple (722373) | more than 3 years ago | (#33980096)

You're welcome to justify your bigotry, but it's still bigotry.

Alternately, a rational person might ask themselves what percentage of the 9/11 hijackers were wearing traditional Muslim garb. Even suicide mission terrorists are only so stupid.

Re:Only one real reason (-1, Troll)

BlackSnake112 (912158) | more than 3 years ago | (#33980226)

(Juan Williams fired for fox appearance).

How about we unpack that story a little further to something like:

"Juan Williams fired for saying that when he sees Muslims getting on a plane with him he's afraid they're going to blow it up."

So his personal opinion in an opinion piece gets him fired? He even went on to say how much he is against outright hatred and racism based on work he has done. Sorry but NPR is showing its true colors. You must "one of us" or you are gone. Sad.

Re:Only one real reason (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33979654)

Yes, we need more of those forward-leaning, innovative conservatives. In fact, it's well known that most innovation and ideas come not from NY, LA, Boston and San Francisco, but from the red states. And academia, the locus of much of the research and innovation in our world, is overwhelmingly conservative.

Seriously, what have conservatives contributed, other than complaints and obstruction? They are always on the wrong side of history. Their track record is a running joke.

Re:Only one real reason (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33979804)

Uh... The only rich liberals are those that founded media empires. Few of those are liberals. I just don't know how to respond to such a dumb comment... Rich people (outside of media) got rich by inventing or recognizing and stealing ideas and carrying through on them to make a business. Almost all were/are conservatives and many from the dreaded red states where we did and still make things. Yes we don't make shit in CA nor NY, those are dead states and other blue states are going that way. This must be a troll so I'll shut up.

Re:Only one real reason (1)

CannonballHead (842625) | more than 3 years ago | (#33979808)

[citation needed]

Re:Only one real reason (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33980170)

I live in the area, I can verify this. I am not certain about the City of Santa Cruz asking Capitola for a cut, but I know that Capitola has gobs of money (police department is incredibly well equipped) and Santa Cruz is hurting for cash. And yes, the UCSC students are encouraged to vote, often at the behest of their teachers (almost communist level liberals for the large part) for whatever hippy-happy legislation is on the ballot.

Re:Only one real reason (1, Insightful)

martas (1439879) | more than 3 years ago | (#33980256)

conservatism is necessary. ask your nearest physicist what would happen if science wasn't conservative... that being said, being too conservative == being a moron asshole stick-in-the-mud grumpy get-off-my-lawn waste of breath.

Re:Only one real reason (2, Informative)

Locke2005 (849178) | more than 3 years ago | (#33979890)

For some parts of California, this is true. In Santa Cruz, they have a big problem because they let the students at UCSC vote in city elections. Those students are overwhelmingly liberal, anti-business, don't understand that you need a tax base to fund your socialist utopia, and most importantly, won't be around for more than 4 years to endure the inevitable results of their short-sighted belief systems. So the huge shopping mall project tries to locate in Santa Cruz, they get firmly rejected, they locate next door in Capitola, and a few years later the city of Santa Cruz is begging the City of Capitola for a cut of sales taxes from the mall on the weak argument that customers are driving through Santa Cruz in order to get to the mall in Capitola to shop... no, I'm not making this shit up!

Re:Only one real reason (1)

interkin3tic (1469267) | more than 3 years ago | (#33980192)

Too many liberals. And I am not even trolling...

I think you are, because I personally claim what's wrong with California is not the number of liberals, but the number of dumb and crazy people of any political leaning. We might have more dumb liberals, but I maintain that's because we have more liberals period. The conservatives who decided it should be all but impossible to raise taxes ever, that was also pretty short sighted.

Anyway, liberals can make cars in theory, just as conservatives can, in theory, be funny comedians.

silicon valley doesn't build most of its silicon (3, Insightful)

MichaelKristopeit 13 (1916014) | more than 3 years ago | (#33979236)

why would they be expected to build anything else? they'll build the specs and engineer the processes and ship it off to china... business as usual.

Re:silicon valley doesn't build most of its silico (0, Offtopic)

Michael Kristopeit (1751814) | more than 3 years ago | (#33979290)

the truth = flamebait.

you're all cowards.

slashdot = stagnated.

Re:silicon valley doesn't build most of its silico (1)

JonySuede (1908576) | more than 3 years ago | (#33980132)

why wont you go away if you don't like it here
and is there a way to block all your nyms ?

Re:silicon valley doesn't build most of its silico (-1, Troll)

MichaelKristopeit 41 (1917550) | more than 3 years ago | (#33980266)

why wont ur mum's face go away if you don't like it here?

you're an idiot.

you can't even dream of way to counter the truth i bring, and then you expect me to retreat?

you're completely pathetic.

California Taxes (5, Interesting)

commodore64_love (1445365) | more than 3 years ago | (#33979252)

That's reason number one. That's the last place I'd want to build an industry, not just because of me but also my workers would have to deal with the heavy tax burden.

Better someplace that has few taxes & doesn't steal (much) money from the workers' paychecks. Like one of the Carolinas.
.

>>>Feedback on this comment system?

Yeah it sucks. And it's slow (CPU intensive). And I can't get back to the classic (plain text) index even though I've un-checked and checked it multiple times.

Re:California Taxes (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33979336)

Log in and log out? Log in? Check? Uncheck? Log out? Log in? Check? Log out? Log in?

Check?

Getting back the classic index. (1)

whoever57 (658626) | more than 3 years ago | (#33979558)

>>>Feedback on this comment system?

Yeah it sucks. And it's slow (CPU intensive). And I can't get back to the classic (plain text) index even though I've un-checked and checked it multiple times.

Go to Preferences, then click on "Layout" under "Dynamic Index" and then select "Use Classic Index"

Re:Getting back the classic index. (1)

DriedClexler (814907) | more than 3 years ago | (#33980094)

BZZT! Still not giving me the classic index!

Re:Getting back the classic index. (1)

idontgno (624372) | more than 3 years ago | (#33980238)

Exit and restart your browser.

No, really. I know it sounds like typical brain-dead "please reboot your computer" tech support script-mongering, but at least for me (on Firefox 3.6.11), that made the difference. Set the UI, as mentioned above. Then exit the browser and restart it.

Don't know why, but that worked for me. YMMV.

Re:Getting back the classic index. (1)

commodore64_love (1445365) | more than 3 years ago | (#33980246)

>>>click on "Layout" under "Dynamic Index" and then select "Use Classic Index"

Yeah that's what I meant when I said, "can't get back to the classic (plain text) index even though I've un-checked and checked it multiple times."

Re:California Taxes (4, Insightful)

mlts (1038732) | more than 3 years ago | (#33979718)

I would also choose to build cars somewhere else for the following reasons, even not bothering with taxes:

1: Heavy industry is not popular in CA. I'd encounter NIMBY syndrome everywhere I wanted to place a heavy duty factory.

2: Detroit has lots of fresh water. Most of California does not. This is a make or break, because if push came to shove, the spigots would be turned off on the factory's water supply so the golf course down the street can water their lawns.

3: Energy problems. California has brownouts aplenty. I'd either have to have large batteries to make up for the poor power grid there, or move to a place that has more reliable power.

4: Traffic. I would not be able to move cars out to the rest of the nation and the world as readily as if the plant was located in a less populated region.

Where would I put a factory? Michigan and Texas both come to mind. Detroit, Abilene, or San Antonio would be ideal spots. From there, I can get vehicles onto ships, I can get supplies from both coasts easily. Texas also has the advantage of being "open for business" all year around with few days of snow or bad weather.

Re:California Taxes (1)

chriso11 (254041) | more than 3 years ago | (#33980028)

Your points aren't very great.

First, heavy industries are generally heavy polluters. The characteristics of California make it easy for air pollution to hang around rather than disperse. Northern California is still dealing with all the mercury that was dumped all around during the gold rush. Maybe other states like pollution, that's fine by me.

Second, yes, Ca doesn't have as much water as some states. But the biggest chunk of water usage is for farmers.

Third, PG&E sucks. But the energy problems you talk of were a decade ago when Enron was manipulating the deregulated energy market.

Forth, yes, there are parts of Ca that have very bad traffic. That's why Toyota was using trains to move auto parts around for Nummi .

So go to some other state and get a lower educated workforce which is fine with polluting.

Re:California Taxes (1)

commodore64_love (1445365) | more than 3 years ago | (#33980284)

>>>Enron manipulating

California did a really lousy job of "Deregulating" their electrical markets - mainly because they didn't deregulate. Other states (MD, PA, NJ) have transitioned to Consumer Choice for electricity & natural gas without any problems.

Re:California Taxes (1)

bhcompy (1877290) | more than 3 years ago | (#33980062)

1) Heavy industry is not popular. Correct. 2) No one is having water "brown outs" in CA. Valid concern in So Cal, but water isn't much of a problem in Nor Cal outside of Central Valley farming regions. 3) Major brownouts haven't occurred since we kicked Gray Davis' ass out of office 4) California is the shipping capital of the US. Plenty of consumer traffic, sure, but the Ports of Long Beach and Los Angeles(ahem, busiest in the US) are the primary destination for imported Asian cars. California is a poor choice for many reasons, but not for the ones you are spewing.

Re:California Taxes (1)

DerekLyons (302214) | more than 3 years ago | (#33980138)

Traffic. I would not be able to move cars out to the rest of the nation and the world as readily as if the plant was located in a less populated region.

Highway traffic is roughly as relevant to this scenario as the price as tomatoes. Big industry doesn't use trucks for long distance movement - it uses trains. And California is very well connected. Less populous regions... aren't.
 

Where would I put a factory? Michigan and Texas both come to mind. Detroit, Abilene, or San Antonio would be ideal spots. From there, I can get vehicles onto ships, I can get supplies from both coasts easily.

Not on ships you can't supplies from both coasts easily, nor ship outgoing product to both coasts. The Panama Canal is a significant bottleneck.

Re:California Taxes (1)

DragonWriter (970822) | more than 3 years ago | (#33980128)

That's reason number one. That's the last place I'd want to build an industry, not just because of me but also my workers would have to deal with the heavy tax burden.

It would be "the last place" to build an industry because of the "high tax burden" when its not in the top 10 of US states by tax burden, measured either by (tax $)/population or by (tax $)/($ personal income)?

Re:California Taxes (1)

Gordonjcp (186804) | more than 3 years ago | (#33980160)

>>>Feedback on this comment system?

Yeah it sucks. And it's slow (CPU intensive). And I can't get back to the classic (plain text) index even though I've un-checked and checked it multiple times.

... and the feedback email link doesn't work. I got rid of the awful disasterous mess by unchecking "Enable Dynamic Discussions" and "Enable Dynamic Discussion Keybindings".

I don't like the new comment system, and if it becomes permanent I'll stop reading the site. That means loss of advertising eyeballs, loss of market share, and eventually loss of jobs in the slashdot janitor broom cupboard.

Re:California Taxes (1)

careysub (976506) | more than 3 years ago | (#33980198)

TThat's reason number one. That's the last place I'd want to build an industry, not just because of me but also my workers would have to deal with the heavy tax burden. Better someplace that has few taxes & doesn't steal (much) money from the workers' paychecks.

Yes, the crushing tax burden on the being in the second quintile of per capita taxes. According to the very conservative newspaper The OC Register (http://www.ocregister.com/articles/tax-270147-pay-increases.html?pic=19). California's total tax burden is 12th in total revenues collected per capita. Calculated as a percentage of income (California ranks 7th in income) it is even lower.

This is not an unreasonable tax burden for a state requiring the infrastructure and education to support a high-tech economy.

The bit equating all taxation with theft tips the reader that rationality is not forthcoming from the above poster. The real Tea Party (in 1773) believed in "No taxation without representation" not "No taxation!!!". I'm sure we would all be happier in the Libertarian Utopia where all services (if they exist) are provided by unregulated corporations. Possibly you should try it in rugged individualistic Alaska - which has the highest taxes in the country, and the largest amount of government spending per capita.

Re:California Taxes (1)

ultranova (717540) | more than 3 years ago | (#33980208)

Yeah it sucks. And it's slow (CPU intensive). And I can't get back to the classic (plain text) index even though I've un-checked and checked it multiple times.

From your use page: Help & preferences -> Discussions -> Vieving -> Slashdot Classic Discussion System.

Took me a while to figure it out too. Kinda panicked when I thought that I'd be stuck with the new system.

Canada! (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33979314)

Come build your car manufacturing plants in Canada, eh? Our workers don't ask for $100 per hour salaries and we got all four seasons* to test your technologies too!

* warning: the summer-to-winter ratio imay not be uniform.

Are they kidding? (5, Insightful)

jedidiah (1196) | more than 3 years ago | (#33979360)

Are they kidding? Silicon Valley already doesn't do a lot of it's hardcore manufacturing. Neither does Detroit anymore.

It's a globalized world out there now. There's no good reason that the Valley can't be the R&D center for even conventional cars. Nevermind bleeding edge EV cars. They just might not build them in California.

An electric car would be no different from an iPod in this respect.

Re:Are they kidding? (1)

Monkeedude1212 (1560403) | more than 3 years ago | (#33979406)

I know, I kind of looked at the headline and went...

Why would it anyone think that?

I should submit an article on why Canada won't be exporting snow.

Re:Are they kidding? (1)

iammani (1392285) | more than 3 years ago | (#33979518)

Actually they should, when alaska is [slashdot.org] , canada should too.

Re:Are they kidding? (1)

andymadigan (792996) | more than 3 years ago | (#33979834)

I suppose northern canada (away from the lakes) could, but exporting snow that would otherwise melt into the great lakes might break the Great Lakes Compact. Same reason we here in Rochester won't be shipping any water down to Arizona anytime soon.

Re:Are they kidding? (1)

jedidiah (1196) | more than 3 years ago | (#33979576)

Speaking of Canada: Why isn't there a Phoenix dealership in Texas yet? This is pickup truck country. Our governor should be smiling next to the relevant provincial governor and sending a bunch of those bad boys down here.

Put charging stations next to all of those West Texas windmills...

News of Detroit's death greatly exaggerated (5, Interesting)

sjbe (173966) | more than 3 years ago | (#33979828)

Are they kidding? Silicon Valley already doesn't do a lot of it's hardcore manufacturing. Neither does Detroit anymore.

Detroit doesn't do manufacturing? That would be news to those of us who live in Detroit. Despite all its problems, Detroit still is the beating heart of manufacturing in the US. EVERY automobile company has a presence in Detroit. Every major auto supplier has a presence in Detroit, many headquartered here. There is still heaping gobs of manufacturing jobs throughout Michigan even despite the recent problems. Major defense contractors like General Dynamics as well as lots of biomedical engineering goes on in Detroit. It's also one of the top 5 finance hubs in the US.

Silicon Valley won't be the Detroit of green cars because Detroit will be almost certainly be the Detroit of green cars. Little known fact: Detroit metro has the FOURTH highest [altiusdirectory.com] amount of high tech employment in the US. Detroit already has huge expertise in building cars, existing infrastructure, tons of engineering talent, idle manufacturing capacity and a work force in need of employment. Michigan is investing huge into battery manufacturing. Silicon Valley will get involved to be sure - especially in the electronics that are going to be an ever more important part of the vehicles. Not to say things are roses in Michigan; they aren't but anyone who thinks Michigan is out of the manufacturing business doesn't understand manufacturing.

There's no good reason that the Valley can't be the R&D center for even conventional cars.

Sure there is. The engineering talent and the companies that need it already live elsewhere. Moving to Silicon Valley would require uprooting a lot of existing investments, people to relocate to a place with no particular advantages in technologies specific to automobiles besides electronics and software. There is auto R&D that occurs in California already but Silicon Valley isn't remotely the only place with engineering talent in the US. Could it happen? Sure. Likely? Very very doubtful.

An electric car would be no different from an iPod in this respect.

Right, because building iPods makes Apple/HP/etc perfectly suited to get into the auto manufacturing business. No difference whatsoever... [/sarcasm]

Re:News of Detroit's death greatly exaggerated (1)

jedidiah (1196) | more than 3 years ago | (#33979934)

> Every major auto supplier has a presence in Detroit, many headquartered here

The operative word here is HEADQUARTERS. It's like how everyone has offices in Walmart's home city despite the fact that all of the factories are actually in CHINA.

The home office doesn't have to be where the stuff is actually made.

Acting like it does is really ignorant on NPRs part.

Detroit globalized like everyone else.

Re:Are they kidding? (2, Informative)

JWSmythe (446288) | more than 3 years ago | (#33979848)

    I partially agree. The silicon valley was good at making tech, but it's definitely not an industry town.

    Detroit is still heavily populated by good hard working people, that will work long hard hours for good pay. Unfortunately, the unions made a mess of things. It was advantageous for workers, but not good for the company. Workers received exceedingly high wages, and great benefits. This, along with the corporate greed raised the prices of the product. It became more cost effective to to move production away, which killed Detroit.

    Manufacturing could move back to Detroit and be very successful, but only if payroll was not artificially inflated. Artificially inflated payroll is just as bad as artificially inflated real estate and artificially inflated stocks. We've seen them all fail with tragic results.

  With the various national economies in the situation they are in, mass production will likely be offshored to a cheaper nation, than to the most tax advantageous city or state. It would be nice to think it will grow in the location it was innovated in. As we've seen with various auto manufacturers, and other industries.

    Here's the lists of the "Big 3" auto companies. See how many are still in Detroit.

    GM manufacturing plants [wikipedia.org]
    Ford manufacturing plants [wikipedia.org]
    Chrysler manufacturing plants [wikipedia.org]

    Our cars will continue to be built in the locations that have the cheapest labor, the cheapest materials, and the cheapest way to get them to the customers.

Re:Are they kidding? (0, Troll)

CAIMLAS (41445) | more than 3 years ago | (#33980272)

Good reasons to not do anything in Silicon Valley, nevermind California:

1) Taxes. California is expensive.
2) Employee wages. Because of taxes, they must be higher to be competitive.
3) Energy costs and grid instability. I'm continually amazed by how crappy things are there.
4) Uppity liberal engineers. No, seriously: these people make poor engineers. Good software developers, sure. Reasoning ability isn't in question; their ability to acknowledge the realities of the world around them for what it is, is.
5) Culture. This ties into #4, but the "I'm due" attitude makes for lazy workers who think they're entitled. Sometimes, hard and unpleasant work is required to get the job done; unless its personally interesting, this type of worker isn't going to get it done. (Check out where industrial machinery tends to be engineered. Hint: it's far from the beaches.)
6) Lost work hours due to environment. SUre, your workers might be there from 9-5 but if it takes an hour on either side of their work day to transit in heavy traffic to do so, they're not going to be on their game.
7) They need automotive engineers who understand what has been tried, why it should not be tried again, and so on. These people are likely to be located elsewhere, giving no incentive to move to California over any other state.

An electric car would be no different from an iPod in this respect.

Yet an iPod is significantly different than, say, a Nokia n8100 or a Microsoft Zune. Why? It may have to do with the culture and location in which they were designed, and what kind of engineers were working on it.

I'd sooner want John Deere or CAT engineers designing my EV than iPod engineers. JD or CAT engineers would be concerned with purely quantifiable things: input to output ratios, handling, suspension, etc. The iPod engineers might do some EC stuff, but for the most part, they're going to be focused on the design of the end result. I'd rather have an efficient EV built by experienced mechanical/electrical engineers that looks like a brick than I would a car that looks awesome but can't corner quickly without a wheel flying off, or an electrical short in cold weather that causes the thing to stall.

They could say exactly the same thing about energy (3, Interesting)

Scareduck (177470) | more than 3 years ago | (#33979374)

The same problems exist in the energy domain as well. California has steadily been making the state hostile to actual manufacturing, the technical domains (bioengineering, mechanical engineering, materials science) are only superficially relevant to Silicon Valley's prime skill set (microlithography, electrical engineering), and the business model is way off (what? There's no exit strategy? You mean we have to actually OPERATE THIS THING OVER THE LONG HAUL?).

Re:They could say exactly the same thing about ene (1)

dwye (1127395) | more than 3 years ago | (#33979986)

the technical domains (bioengineering, mechanical engineering, materials science) are only superficially relevant to Silicon Valley's prime skill set (microlithography, electrical engineering)

Materials Science only superficially relevant to microlithography?

I would point out that none of your S.V. Skill Sets were native to the Valley, but were imported, and were importable because of the presence of Stanford, which is rather more than just a school of microlithography and another of microelectronics engineering.

OTOH, your other points look good, alas.

Re:They could say exactly the same thing about ene (1)

DragonWriter (970822) | more than 3 years ago | (#33980200)

the technical domains (bioengineering, mechanical engineering, materials science) are only superficially relevant to Silicon Valley's prime skill set (microlithography, electrical engineering)

Silicon Valley is pretty close to one of the nation's more significant biotech centers (South San Francisco.) Northern California, generally, is a pretty big area for bioengineering.

This one's easy (1)

EmagGeek (574360) | more than 3 years ago | (#33979376)

Silicon Valley has no idea how to build cars.

Detroit knows how to build cars.

It doesn't matter that it's a hybrid or a solar or a whatever. When it comes to manufacturing, Silicon Valley doesn't have any. Detroit does.

Re:This one's easy (1)

countSudoku() (1047544) | more than 3 years ago | (#33979778)

Actually, you should read up some because there is a car manufacturing facility here call NUMMI. Your mileage may vary:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Motors#United_States [wikipedia.org]

Toyota built cars there until recently. Ask yourself this; where are the big three now? I used to drive an American car too, now I can afford a proper German one. Your mileage may vary. I'll take Silicon Valley over Detroit any day. I already did. You're joking though, right? Detroit knows how to build cheap, shitty cars, except for a precious few high-end vehicles like the upper end Cadillacs, the Viper, Corvette, and we'll I ran out of examples. Camaros, and Mustangs don't count as the suspension and exhaust systems are typically so restrictive that you have to completely replace them as soon as you drive off the lot. So, sorry but Detroit better start building some better cars. The Volt ain't it, Son.

Re:This one's easy (1)

CannonballHead (842625) | more than 3 years ago | (#33979872)

So... you used to drive [cheap] American cars, now you drive a [non-cheap] German car. You then appear to claim that cheap priced American cars are cheap quality, and non-cheap quality American cars are not cheap priced. And yet, you only switched to a German car when you could afford it. In other words, your anecdotal comparison is between Cheap Priced/Cheaply Made American Cars and Expensive German Car.

It's not like all German cars are well-made, either.

And I'm not at all saying you need to drive American, just poking at your argument. You're perfectly free to drive whatever car you want, I don't care. It's no more patriotic to drive a Ford than a Toyota, or BMW, or whatever.

Re:This one's easy (1)

afidel (530433) | more than 3 years ago | (#33979836)

To add to that a little, Detroit and the midwest has an entire infrastructure of industries around building physical things. My dad has customers in the southern US and when he goes down to call on them he finds broken process things that are obvious to him just from being in the industry for 20+ years. He often points these things out and tells them how they could improve the process which is probably why he keeps these clients despite not being able to call on them more than a handful of times a year. Fleeing from the unions might save some money but it also costs money by not being able to tap into the knowledge base that has built up over a hundred years.

Re:This one's easy (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33980190)

Fleeing from the unions might save some money but it also costs money by not being able to tap into the knowledge base that has built up over a hundred years.

Like how to stuff a ballot box, how to intimidate non-union workers, how to bribe local politicians, how to hide the bodies, how to coast on seniority to a job you're not skilled enough for ... I could go on, but seriously? What knowledge base to you honestly think a Union brings to a particular factory?

Re:This one's easy (0, Flamebait)

ickleberry (864871) | more than 3 years ago | (#33979974)

Detroit knows how to build cars?

They know how to take a huge inefficient crapheap of a petrol engine, throw it into a recycled chassis from the 80's, fill the said chassis with the latest gimmicks such as iPod connectors & OnStar then sell to the gullible public with some clever marketing.

I'll never understand how those fuckers manage to make a car with a 5 or 6 litre petrol engine that handles worse than a bus. And by bus I mean a decent Mercedes or Van Hool bus, I'd really hate to see their own attempt at making a bus

Re:This one's easy (1)

Gordonjcp (186804) | more than 3 years ago | (#33980220)

Van Hool bus

Van Hool are a coachbuilder. They don't make the chassis. The Van Hool-bodied Volvo B10Ms were excellent, though. I wonder where M8 SKY and 12 EWO are now?

This article doesn't make a great argument. (5, Insightful)

Mongoose Disciple (722373) | more than 3 years ago | (#33979384)

Although it makes some concessions to the idea, the article ultimately struggles around the idea that where things are prototyped/engineered isn't necessarily where they will be built.

And I agree, Silicon Valley is a terrible place to build a manufacturing plant. Cost of living is too expensive and you can't reasonably expect to pay factory workers wages that will allow them to compete for housing with programmers and engineers.

However, the article makes an awful case that engineering around green cars can't/won't happen in Silicon Valley. They point out that Tesla has to work to attract the kind of specialized engineers they need to move out there. But you know what? The point is, you can convince them to move out there. It might cost you, but you can do it if it's important enough. Good luck convincing the best and the brightest that they want to live in Detroit instead, despite a much cheaper cost of living.

On par for the linked site (4, Insightful)

pavon (30274) | more than 3 years ago | (#33979672)

Slashdot has posted several articles from greencarreports.com (all submitted by thecarchik), many of which have been pretty poor, including the one about cambered tires improving efficiency [slashdot.org] while completely neglecting the fact that it ruins handling, a study showing that hyrid cars don't save enough gas to cover extra cost [slashdot.org] by conveniently only looking at the first 5 year of the cars use.

I've added them to my ignored links list.

Re:This article doesn't make a great argument. (1)

BJ_Covert_Action (1499847) | more than 3 years ago | (#33979770)

They point out that Tesla has to work to attract the kind of specialized engineers they need to move out there.

And even that is probably a bit fluffed up in terms of being a metric. Tesla works hard to attract the best and the brightest because they want the absolute cream of the crop for their engineers. SpaceX is just as picky with it's engineers. These companies don't shop worldwide because there are no engineers in California. They shop worldwide because they want the smartest sons of bitches money can buy working for them

If quantity of engineers (non software/electrical) is a problem for any start ups in California, they aren't looking hard enough. California has some of the best mechanical, systems, aerospace, and materials engineering schools on the planet: Cal Poly- San Luis Obispo, UC Davis, UCLA, UC Berkley, Stanford, UC Irvine, Cal Poly - Pomona, Cal Tech, and even SJSU all have wonderful engineering programs that are as diverse as they are rigorous. Each one of those schools still turns out a few hundred (if not thousand) new, talented engineers a year. Stack on top of the the fact that Orange County and the Silicon Valley also have very developed aerospace and robotics industries chugging along inside their borders, and you will start to realize just what a diverse pool of engineering and design talent (both electrical and mechanical) exists in California. Quite frankly, if Musk or anyone else is having trouble finding engineering talent in California in any discipline, they aren't looking hard enough.

Michigan is 4th in high tech employment (1)

sjbe (173966) | more than 3 years ago | (#33980036)

Good luck convincing the best and the brightest that they want to live in Detroit instead, despite a much cheaper cost of living.

To use your own logic, "you can convince them to move out there. It might cost you, but you can do it if it's important enough."

Detroit has a FAR worse reputation than it deserves. Michigan is actually an amazing place to live and much of the manufacturing doesn't actually take place in Detroit itself. The summers are beautiful and the winters have lots of activities for those not afraid to step outside, you are never more than about 80 miles from the coast of one of the Great Lakes, cost of living is reasonable, and believe it or not a lot of the best and brightest are ALREADY HERE. Michigan has the 4th highest amount of high tech employment in the US among major metro areas. You think those people are here against their will?

Re:Michigan is 4th in high tech employment (1)

Mongoose Disciple (722373) | more than 3 years ago | (#33980262)

You think those people are here against their will?

Not exactly, but I bet you could get an awful lot of them to move to San Jose if you could offer them a similar standard of living. Midwestern winters suck if you prefer non-winter sports, and they extra suck if you have to commute more than a few miles, plows and salt nonwithstanding. If you prefer water sports, let's be honest, the beach on a Great Lake is not like the Pacific Ocean.

I know some people who are engineers in the automotive industry and have a passion for cars. They live in the Detroit area because that's where a lot of those jobs are now. I assure you they don't live in Detroit for any other reason and would much prefer to live elsewhere. Elsewhere in the Midwest, even. It's very possible that these people are not representative of everyone who lives in the region, but short of taking my next vacation to Detroit and doing some interviews they're what I have to base my opinions on.

Maybe it's different if you grew up there.

The Green Car Detroit? ISOTP! (1)

Gizzmonic (412910) | more than 3 years ago | (#33979394)

The Green Car Detroit sounds like the name for one of those awful hipster bands. Silicon Valley sounds like a porn star. And everyone knows that hipsters don't have dicks, so I guess it makes since that they aren't related.

NSS tag? (1)

boristdog (133725) | more than 3 years ago | (#33979404)

Where's the No Shit, Sherlock Tag?

Err, So Cal? (1)

bhcompy (1877290) | more than 3 years ago | (#33979430)

Silicon Valley has the flashy ones, but companies like Fisker that are pushing the envelope on the industry are expanding in So Cal. Production will almost always be elsewhere, though, since costs here are so ridiculous, especially for union labor.

Outsorucing (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33979460)

What's so different about the economics of automobile outsourcing compared to computer and consumer electronics outsourcing? Why is it that above 15-25k units it makes sense for auto manufacturers to do it in house, yet all the widget companies farm out their millions of units to Asia?

Re:Outsorucing (2, Interesting)

JimFive (1064958) | more than 3 years ago | (#33979636)

1. Bulk. A car is big, shipping is expensive.
2. If your part isn't at the assembly plant when it is needed and GM has to shut down the line, your company gets charged about $2000 per minute (might be more, now). With "Just in Time" inventory practices, no supplier would be willing to risk a long transport time.
3. Logistics (related to 2) When I worked for an auto supplier, orders were finalized no more than 3 weeks out. When I worked for the paper products company, product from China was shipped 3-6 months out.
--
JimFive

Re:Outsorucing (1)

MyFirstNameIsPaul (1552283) | more than 3 years ago | (#33979838)

1. Bulk. A car is big, shipping is expensive. JimFive

Not only is it big, it's mostly air. Shipping too much air is what makes the shipping too expensive.

Re:Outsorucing (1)

Gordonjcp (186804) | more than 3 years ago | (#33980252)

During and after the second world war, many car manufacturers shipped "CKD" (Completely Knocked Down) cars to foreign countries. These arrived as crates of bits that could be quickly and easily assembled by local labour in simple workshops. It doesn't take a lot to put a Morris Minor together, and they were considerably harder to assemble than a modern car as anyone who has ever done a body-off restoration will tell you.

the three reasons (3, Informative)

Surt (22457) | more than 3 years ago | (#33979480)

From the article:
Long cycles, faraway profits

Wrong kind of engineers

Painful place to build things

Customisation (2, Interesting)

Rough3dg3 (1372837) | more than 3 years ago | (#33979524)

I agree with many of the points made in the article. The one point that got my attention (and then got me thinking) was "These days, it takes $1 billion or more to design, engineer, test, certify, and launch a brand-new vehicle. And that takes roughly five years." My point is that I am eagerly looking forward to the time I can buy a car online with a build specification similar to the options I am offered when I visit Dell's or some other company's website. How long before we get PnP components for cars like we do with computer components? Car manufacturing will generate more business when we have more adaptable parts that can be ordered, created and delivered within two weeks of visiting Ford's website.

Re:Customisation (1)

DerekLyons (302214) | more than 3 years ago | (#33980182)

My point is that I am eagerly looking forward to the time I can buy a car online with a build specification similar to the options I am offered when I visit Dell's or some other company's website. How long before we get PnP components for cars like we do with computer components?

Have you actually ever ordered a new car? You might try it, because the auto companies were offering shedloads of options and high customization long before Micheal Dell's parents were a gleam in his grandparent's eyes.

Central Oklahoma (2, Funny)

Sooner Boomer (96864) | more than 3 years ago | (#33979552)

Forget Cali, come to Central Oklahoma! Our GM plant closed last year; the facility and knowledgeable manpower are available. Decently low cost of living, decently high wages, right-to-work (not that I'm anti-union). Plenty of inexpensive power (natural gas-fired electrical plants) and good weather. Heck, we even have earthquakes [modernsurvivalblog.com] .

BSOD (0, Offtopic)

tedgyz (515156) | more than 3 years ago | (#33979574)

Picture this - Blue Screen Of Death doing 75 on the interstate
Ok, I know it is an article about Silicon Valley, but it's a good joke.

Seriously, building cars takes a discipline and patience that most haxx0rs can't grok. We are spoiled by the quick returns within the virtual realm of computers and networks.

Re:BSOD (1)

Un pobre guey (593801) | more than 3 years ago | (#33979990)

I guess AMD, Intel, Applied Materials, Cisco, HP and all the rest lack a discipline and patience that you can only find in Detroit.

Oh, wait...

This is what will happen. (1)

AnonymousClown (1788472) | more than 3 years ago | (#33979626)

All those Silicon Valley car makers will be bought out by one of the big manufacturers: GM, Ford, or Chrysler (The Japanese will design their own versions in house). They will then completely fuck it up like they always do and the Japanese, Chinese and maybe even the Indians will come in and eat their lunch. Then the big 3 will bitch and moan to Congress about unfair competition or some such crap and get yet another bailout.

Musk and others will sell out in a heartbeat for the right price.

This is the way it has been and always shall be.

High taxes and mostly corollas (1)

jappleng (1805148) | more than 3 years ago | (#33979664)

A lot of businesses here are leaving the state because the government keeps increasing taxes. You can't make jobs by increasing taxes, and you can't keep businesses if you do the same. Plus if you drive around here you'll mostly see Corollas driven around because when you move from another country you want a car that is affordable and can be run into the ground until the axles come off. It's not a stereotype that indians all drive corollas it's just common sense that immigrants would buy something that will keep them steady while they are here permanently or temporarily. Would you want to spend $20-$50k for an electric car that had to have its batteries replaced at least once or twice in its lifetime? What about the maintenance for it? Not all mechanics are certified or want to be certified to work with high-voltage vehicles so you have to bring it back in to the dealership to get anything repaired and it aint cheap. Logically, in this location, it's just not possible to get the ball rolling with electric cars. As liberal as this place is, there's too few who can and will pay for electric cars, even if they guaranteed two hours on a charge.

Imported engineers (4, Interesting)

fiannaFailMan (702447) | more than 3 years ago | (#33979700)

TFA is saying that one of the reasons the valley won't manufacture cars is because they'll have to import engineers from elsewhere since the ones already in the place are only qualified in microelectronics and aren't qualified in the heavy duty engineering needed for manufacturing.

Silicon Valley's already full of imported engineers who were brought in to work as coders. I'm one of them. I don't see why they couldn't import the necessary skills. The valley is a very attractive proposition to someone living in India, or in England as was the case for me.

Re:Imported engineers (1)

nomadic (141991) | more than 3 years ago | (#33979850)

The valley is a very attractive proposition to someone living in India, or in England as was the case for me.

Or, maybe, Detroit. The lie that America doesn't have qualified engineers is corporate propaganda.

Re:Imported engineers (1)

weiserfireman (917228) | more than 3 years ago | (#33980140)

It is one thing to bring in enough engineers to do design work, or the modest scale production that Tesla currently does.

It is another thing to bring in the 100's of engineers needed to operate a manufacturing plant of the scale to build even 50,000-100,000 cars per year. The skill set of engineers who have been writing code for many years doesn't translate to production and manufacturing engineering in heavy industry.

The greatest concentrations of those types of engineers is in communities that already have automotive or other industrial factories. You would have to recruit them and pay them a high enough wage to make them want to move away from their current homes and be able to afford comparable homes in the Silicon Valley region.

Those kinds of wage scales will make Tesla's dreams of selling $15-$20k cars unobtainable.

Apparently it will by Lynchburg, VA (2, Informative)

silvercloak (68622) | more than 3 years ago | (#33979714)

The NUMMI plant (5, Interesting)

Animats (122034) | more than 3 years ago | (#33979774)

Tesla has the advantage of taking over the NUMMI plant in Fremont, CA, a big, successful auto plant shut down for the 2008 recession, when Toyota, for the first time, had to close plants. They're only using a fraction of the plant, but they own all the buildings (although not all the land; they didn't buy all the parking lots). There are plenty of laid-off auto workers living nearby, so a workforce is available.

The cost differential with China has narrowed. It turns out that once wages in China reach a quarter of the US level, China manufacturing stops being competitive. The transport costs, the delays, and the quality problems make outsourcing manufacturing less attractive. With wages rising in the coastal provinces in China, (and wages dropping in the US) that wage level has been reached in some industries.

Also, with all the foreclosures, bay area house prices have dropped. Maybe by a factor of 2.

Operating in Detroit has its own problems. The weather is harsh. Crime is high. Most of the people with competence and ambition moved out when the jobs did.

Don't worry about the rare earth supply problem. Mountain Pass, California [molycorp.com] is already coming back on line.

Manufacturing in Michigan (3, Interesting)

sjbe (173966) | more than 3 years ago | (#33980194)

Operating in Detroit has its own problems. The weather is harsh. Crime is high. Most of the people with competence and ambition moved out when the jobs did.

Bullshit. The weather is fine unless you are a huge sissy and in case you didn't know, manufacturing occurs indoors. The workforce and engineering talent ALREADY lives here. Crime is not particularly high in most of Michigan. Since you are obviously ignorant about how things work in Detroit, most of the manufacturing does not take place in high crime areas. Very few companies actually make anything in Detroit proper - everyone moved out to the suburbs LONG ago. Oakland County (the one immediately to the north of Detroit proper) is one of the wealthiest counties in the entire country and one of only 10 or so with a AAA credit rating.

The dumbest comment though is the last one you made. No one with any competence in Detroit? Spoken like an ignorant jackass who doesn't actually know anything about Detroit or what goes on there. Michigan has the 4th highest amount of high tech employment of any major metro area in the US. The place is absolutely crawling with engineering talent. Might not be as glamorous as microchips and software but make no mistake that there are a LOT of very smart people in Michigan.

Not so easy. (2, Interesting)

MaWeiTao (908546) | more than 3 years ago | (#33979800)

One of the big advantages Silicon Valley has enjoyed is it's proximity to Asia. And likely it's one of the reasons why Silicon Valley is where it is. They enjoy easier access to the high technology coming out of Japan, South Korea and Taiwan and the manufacturing resources of China.

The automotive industry is an entirely different beast. The technology isn't nearly as concentrated as it might be with computers or consumer electronics. A company could draw on manufacturing, expertise and technology from Europe, Asia and within the United States. So why even bother putting up with the high taxes and regulations present in California? The company could be based anywhere.

And building a car, especially a green car, is a far more complex undertaking than a lot of people seem to realize. I expect we're going to see a lot of investors burned in ventures that end up not working out. Even Tesla, which has gotten far further than most is struggled. Too many start ups have impractical pie-in-the-sky ambitions. Unrealistically lightweight vehicles with amazing fuel economy that manage, by magic, to meet all crash-worthiness requirements. And they simply don't have the resources to build aerodynamic bodies cheaply and efficiently. I expect that in the end it's going to be the major automakers who will bring practical green cars to the market.

The big limiting factor is the battery. If someone manages to produce batteries that store far more energy and can be charged quickly it would revolutionize the automotive industry. We wouldn't need hundreds of pounds worth of batteries or hybrid drivetrains and we'd still get a practical 300+ mile range out of these cars.

Re:Not so easy. (1)

Mongoose Disciple (722373) | more than 3 years ago | (#33979868)

One of the big advantages Silicon Valley has enjoyed is it's proximity to Asia. And likely it's one of the reasons why Silicon Valley is where it is.

I've never heard that theory before.

Usually it's attributed to the proximity of Berkeley and Stanford and/or year-round moderate weather conditions that avoid both snow and "you really need air conditioning" heat.

Only one of the reasons makes sense (3, Interesting)

Locke2005 (849178) | more than 3 years ago | (#33979822)

"Painful place to build things". Silicon Valley is a very expensive, over-regulated place to do business. The only advantage it holds for current business is the critical mass of engineers that make it easy to cannibalize talent from other companies. Electric vehicle companies would likely adopt a model similar to Apple, wherein design work is done in-house in the Silicon Valley, but manufacturing is done in Taiwan or China. Also, the high efficiency vehicles of the future won't be 4-wheel cars; the safety standards for motorcycles are far less restrictive than those for automobiles, and any 3-wheel vehicle can be classified as a motorcycle. There are also several full electric motorcycles coming out now (e.g. Zero Motors).

The "It takes $1 billion and 5 years to launch a new vehicle" is simply bullshit. It make take that long if you do it the way Detroit does it, but history has shown that Detroit is doing it wrong! Modern businesses are no longer the huge vertically integrated monopolies of the early industrial age; it is now possible to buy everything from out of house. "Wrong kind of engineers" is also bullshit -- create a demand for automotive engineers and Stanford and Berkly will train them! Granted, there is a 4-year lag, but the reason there is a Silicon Valley in the first place is because the world-class universities in the area created a pool of world-class engineers. Again, having engineers that are trained to do things "the GM way" is a disadvantage, not an advantage.

National Propaganda Radio (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33979914)

NPR employs a lot of folks that are actually capable of believing that CA is a viable site for heavy industry; when you love CA as much a they do you're liable to ascribe more credit that is actually warranted. The one industry still thriving in CA are the dock cranes unloading Chinese goods. Everything else is gone or on the way out. This includes the rare earth mining operations which happen to be crucial to the manufacture of coal-powered cars. The mining gear was packed up from the sites and shipped directly to Chinese mines.

Yes I know there are plans to reopen Mountain Pass. All they need are investors willing to dump billions into a mine in California instead of China. Good luck with that.

Bottom line; NPR is just making shit up.

where are the profits (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#33979920)

On one hand it is correct, but the question we have to ask is where are the profits? Did MS or Apple or Google get rich from building and operating heavy manufacturing plants or from design and sales. I think we all know the answer. Intel would be the closest to a heavy manufacuter in silicon valley, and only by a far stretch of the imagination. With this in mind Silcon valley may be the design hub of the new auto industry, and may in fact have some boutique marques, but certainly will not likely see huge number of cars being built, if for no other reason, as stated, that heavy large scale manufacturing is not huge profit is.

Beyond profit, there is the issue of quality of life. For example on the gulf coast there are nice neighborhoods, but they are hugely polluted. People live there because they are often semiskilled and can only work and afford to live in these areas, or are highly skill and receive huge paychecks to tolerate the pollution. Then there are area that are pretty clean where professionals tend to live. Some of these are suburbs that are not going allow heavy manufacturing, others are in the city where heavy manufacturing has been banished. I suspect Silicon Valley is going to be one of those places that is not going accept the long term loss of quality of life for short term profits. Again, unless one is trying to employ large numbers of unskilled workers, this is not a compromise one has to make. Such workers can migrate to areas of the country or state where such compromises are considered acceptable.

So it could be that California will be center of design and engineering, just like Kia has a design center, for cars, and therefore will have most of the high paying jobs and profits, while the cars are built elsewhere. This is not a bad thing. It is like the comment said about liberals. Liberals do try to develop new ways to maximize profits, while a conservative, if we are to believe the comment, will simply try to do anything for a buck, even if it is not profitable or safe or socially acceptable.

Well what are they? (1)

emuls (1926384) | more than 3 years ago | (#33980234)

...for three main reasons

And from an earlier story

Google has been asked to do four things before the Canadian Government would consider the matter resolved.

What are these three or four things?!?

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