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John Carmack On RAGE For iOS/Android

Soulskill posted more than 3 years ago | from the lines-starting-to-blur dept.

First Person Shooters (Games) 105

Andrew Smith writes "John Carmack has an article up on the Bethesda blog discussing the iPhone/iPad version of RAGE, which is said to run at an impressive 60fps. 'Managing over a gig of media made dealing with flash memory IO and process memory management very important, and I did a lot of performance investigations to figure things out. Critically, almost all of the data is static, and can be freely discarded. iOS does not have a swapfile, so if you use too much dynamic memory, the OS gives you a warning or two, then kills your process. The bane of iOS developers is that "too much" is not defined, and in fact varies based on what other apps (Safari, Mail, iPod, etc) that are in memory have done. If you read all your game data into memory, the OS can’t do anything with it, and you are in danger. However, if all of your data is in a read-only memory mapped file, the OS can throw it out at will.' And a tweet by Carmack yesterday suggests that an Android version of RAGE is on the way too."

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Rage? (5, Funny)

ThePromenader (878501) | more than 3 years ago | (#34073906)

Is he angry about Android?

Re:Rage? (2, Funny)

Mitchell314 (1576581) | more than 3 years ago | (#34073926)

D'roid rage?

Re:Rage? (2, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34073966)

DROID ANGRY, DROID SMASH

Re:Rage? (2, Informative)

klingens (147173) | more than 3 years ago | (#34074044)

RAGE is the 3D game engine Carmack/id Software wrote. Now they want to port it to smartphones and pads to enable others to build 3D games there.

Re:Rage? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34074070)

Whoosh... and no, that's not the sound of the rage going away.

Re:Rage? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34074298)

No, Rage is a game using the megatexture engine. Coincidentally, Rage is the name of Rockstar's engine.

Re:Rage? (4, Informative)

Narishma (822073) | more than 3 years ago | (#34074434)

No, the RAGE engine (which stands for Rockstar Advanced Game Engine) is the one used by Rockstar in their various recent games (GTA4, Red Dead Redemption and others). id Software's engines are called idTech and the one used for Rage the game is called idTech 5.

Re:Rage? (0, Offtopic)

landuan (1928866) | more than 3 years ago | (#34086530)

This cartoon presents in front of us a sharp contrast between two types of neighbors. The two pet neighbors greet each other politely and amiably while Cheap FF14 Gil [playff14.com] FF14 Power leveling [playff14.com] FFXIV Power leveling [playff14.com] the two lonely human neighbors seem to ignore each other. When we take a walk in any of the cities in the modern society, we can often observe such a sad scene in which social interactions have been grievously diminishing. There are more and more urban residents who love raising pets. Pet-keeping is becoming increasingly pervasive because a pet may be a companion for old people, a friend for young couples, and a playing toy for children. Believe it or not, pets are such an inseparable part in their daily life that they often devote lots of energy, time and money to taking care of the needs of their loved animals. Small wonder, such devotion to pet-raising points to a truth of great importance today — loneliness in a busy world. Since most people have to live on an on-the-move lifestyle, they are probably denied opportunities to share their feelings with their friends and relatives. Whereas pets will be good listeners. Where there are so many dishonesties going around, they must stay with a dog, which is likely to be faithful to them. It seems that an individual is being ridiculous if he starts conversations with his neighbors, so he often has no alternative but to enjoy the company of pets. That’s why the scene depicted in the cartoon is not uncommon in our daily life. Our life would be, of course, enjoyable if we have pets. But we would enjoy much more meaningful life if the two human neighbors started a talk to each other in a friendly way, just like the two dogs.

Re:Rage? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34074484)

RAGE is the 3D game engine Carmack/id Software wrote. Now they want to port it to smartphones and pads to enable others to build 3D games there.

The latest version of idTech is actually only available for Bethesdasoft. It will not be licensed anytime soon. Unline past idTech versions. I have doubts that in 4 years it will make it's way to open source as well. Which is a shame.

Re:Rage? (1)

HappyClown (668699) | more than 3 years ago | (#34074364)

The Android port isn't a given. He's since tweeted [twitter.com] "I am going to take a stab at bringing Rage up on Android soon, but we have NOT committed to a product".

Re:Rage? (2, Insightful)

lightversusdark (922292) | more than 3 years ago | (#34075820)

I don't blame him, I would be hesitant of committing to shipping such a demanding, immersive application with the same performance on Android as can be delivered on iOS.

I got modded down the last time I tried mentioning this [slashdot.org] , but as someone currently making an income from Android development:

Android audio is a MESS.
Even if it improves anytime soon, not all devices will be getting OS upgrades.
Other unresolved issues I've mentioned [slashdot.org] are why fragmentation is becoming a more and more valid criticism of the platform.
And to any fanboys with modpoints, I'm not a shill, I took a gamble investing my time in learning yet another platform, and I have to deal with these frustrations every day.

Re:Rage? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34077564)

Thanks for mentioning this again, as it led me to your bug report. I was looking in to porting my app over to Android, and it's literally impossible with the current audio APIs. I never thought I'd end up considering Windows Mobile before Android, and I'm glad to see there are at least official complaints on record about it.

Re:Rage? (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34077444)

The Android port isn't a given. He's since tweeted "I am going to take a stab at bringing Rage up on Android soon, but we have NOT committed to a product".

A shame, really. Android's got one major feature over iOS. You can install pirated apps without jailbreaking. As an iPhone user, it's annoying to have to wait for a jailbreak when Apple releases a new OS version. It took ages for 4.1 to get jailbroken (a problem since new iPhone4s were coming with 4.1).

At least on Android I can just fire up my torrent app, grab this game and install it. I wonder if Google would accept a version of Installuous into the Marketplace.

www.f16.biz (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34073944)

Helikopter oyunlar oyna [f16.biz] Thanks you.

Furious (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34073992)

Well, I'm not doing badly on this one - I have a rough idea of who John Carmack is, I know what iOS is and I know what Android is. So... any hints on what RAGE is other than the obvious "fury" type comments?

Re:Furious (0, Offtopic)

ThePromenader (878501) | more than 3 years ago | (#34074008)

In French, 'rage' means 'rabies'. Did that help?

Re:Furious (1)

ThePromenader (878501) | more than 3 years ago | (#34074496)

Someone metamoderate the moderator '-5 no sense of humour'.

Re:Furious (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34087216)

You weren't funny.

Re:Furious (1)

cgenman (325138) | more than 3 years ago | (#34074074)

RAGE is a 3D game engine that ID has been developing, as well as a title of similar name. If it is everything they say it is, it may replace Unreal Tournament as the default go-to 3D engine for upcoming game development.

Re:Furious (1)

Blaaguuu (886777) | more than 3 years ago | (#34074228)

id Software's engine is called "id Tech 5", and is being used in a game called "RAGE". Epic Game's engine is called Unreal Engine 3. id Tech 5 may become one of the more popular commercial game engines, if it proves as technically impressive as Carmack suggests, and has good tools, but I don't think many people expect it to eclipse the Unreal Engine's current status. If anything, CryEngine3 will probably start getting a lot more popular after Crytek releases their free-to-use version, to compete with the Unreal Development Kit and Unity for indie game developers.

Re:Furious (1)

BiggerBoat (690886) | more than 3 years ago | (#34074324)

It won't eclipse Unreal Engine's status. id Tech 5 will not be licensed to 3rd party developers and publishers [tomshardware.com] . You want to license id Tech 5? You have to publish through Bethesda.

Re:Furious (1)

Chaos Incarnate (772793) | more than 3 years ago | (#34077246)

Not that anybody will want to license id Tech 5. Only one non-iD/Bethesda game used id Tech 4: Prey.

Re:Furious (1)

Narishma (822073) | more than 3 years ago | (#34075186)

idTech 5 isn't going to compete with UE3. They aren't going to license it to other developers (except those publishing through Bethesda) mainly because it's too much hassle to support and they'd rather be in the business of making games than supporting engines.

Re:Furious (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34074128)

Re:Furious (1)

Locutus (9039) | more than 3 years ago | (#34075632)

John Carmack is the id Software guy and id does games('does' used loosely). So we;re talking bout games.

LoB

Date of birth to read article? (1)

hilather (1079603) | more than 3 years ago | (#34074014)

What is up with that?

Re:Date of birth to read article? (0, Offtopic)

MachDelta (704883) | more than 3 years ago | (#34074300)

Welcome to the world of video games, where everything is wrapped in thick layers of bubble wrap and plastered with warning signs because, "O-M-G, think of the CHILDREN!!!!!1`1"
Input your age to view this, input your age to read that, input your age to input your age so we can ask about your age and make sure you are of age! It's fucking ridiculous. But video games have been labeled as a bogey-man, so god help us we'll pressure and legislate the piss out of them until they are completely safe for your children!
The interwebz you say? There's nothing wreched and disgusting on the interwebz other than evil, evil video games!
*Sigh*

Re:Date of birth to read article? (1)

contra_mundi (1362297) | more than 3 years ago | (#34074342)

You'll notice that it's hosted by Bethesda.

Most big gaming companies have been putting all their content behind such an age-wall. I assume they think a 14-year-old won't be able to figure out how to get past it.

Re:Date of birth to read article? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34076080)

Apparently I only need to be 13 years old to get past it. wtf?

Re:Date of birth to read article? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34074352)

They need to be able to figure out whether to sell you for adoption, as a spouse, as an organ donor, or for biofuel. They'll fatten you up with some cookies.

Re:Date of birth to read article? (1)

creimer (824291) | more than 3 years ago | (#34076804)

Put in 01/01/01 (that's 1901). Maybe someone will read the logs and figure out that there's a huge market of 109-years-old who surf the internet and play violent video games on mobile devices.

Y2K APOCOLYPSO MUCHO?!!! (1)

Thud457 (234763) | more than 3 years ago | (#34090764)

surely 01/01/01 (that's 2001) would be nine (almost ten!) years old, and therefore unable to read the article.

honestly, I didn't die hunting down and exterminating mutants like you in the Ed Yourdon milita just to have to tolerate slurs like that!

so... (1)

rkoot (557181) | more than 3 years ago | (#34074106)

a port to our favorite penguin-powered platform is imminent? I think I recall ID telling us there'd be no linux version of RAGE technology!

Re:so... (3, Insightful)

gilesjuk (604902) | more than 3 years ago | (#34074136)

Android applications are written in a Java style runtime. It's not native Linux code.

Android applications can call some native code, but it's a bit like JNI in Java.

One can expect the frame rate of the Android version will be lower than the iOS version for that reason, it's not 100% native code.

Re:so... (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34074474)

I think the only important Dalvik dependency for a native game is on audio and I/O -- stuff like app setup simply isn't relevant from a performance perspective. OpenSL ES should take care of the audio part, if/when that arrives (2.3? 3.0? who knows?).

Re:so... (3, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34074854)

That's not true. You call into native and you can stay there entirely for the rendering portion so there is no JNI back and forth overhead only native.
You need the Java code just to setup the windowing system and provide integration with the platform.
Currently Android has slightly lower FPS than iPhone because it uses an outdated FP library.

Re:so... (1)

rrossman2 (844318) | more than 3 years ago | (#34075462)

So what about the androids with the VR chips?

Re:so... (1)

Locutus (9039) | more than 3 years ago | (#34075656)

maybe not so optimized graphics driver too. gingerbread might change that.

LoB

Re:so... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34075712)

AFAIK you can use native code for the most part, and have your Android app be a tiny little 'shell' around it with little JNI overhead. There was some article or Google talk that talked about this, but I'm afraid I can't find the link.

Re:so... (1)

brkello (642429) | more than 3 years ago | (#34089736)

I wouldn't expect that at all. You can write as much or as little as you want natively. Why are you making stuff up?

Re:so... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34093090)

Why does this crap persist? You realize most modern MMOs, including WOW, do all their server side networking in Java right? Also, you're wrong about how native calls work in Android, you can actually "hang out" in the low levels for as long as you need.

Re:so... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34074150)

Why bother? Just launch the free virtual android environment and run RAGE in that.

RAGE'd! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34074182)

Oh good gracious people...

RAGE is a game being developed by iD Software. It is their NEW IP, like Doom, Quake, etc. It is a FPS/Racing/Open World game set in post-apoc world. It of course pushes graphical boundaries and expounds upon the mega-texturing idea essentially letting the artist "paint" an infinte amount of detail onto the surface of the world. John Carmack, being the genius that he is, was able to get this working on a freaking iPhone (a scaled down version).

Ported? (1)

Chris Chiasson (908287) | more than 3 years ago | (#34074222)

I wasn't aware it was available on any platform as of yet. Where is the game?

Re:Ported? (2, Insightful)

MachDelta (704883) | more than 3 years ago | (#34074372)

Not out yet. iD and Epic are just having a bit of a pissing match with "Our latest nexest-gen video game engine with gobs of megatextures and pixel-threaded-hyper-polygons will run on *gasp* an iPHONE! So when you're looking to make your next craptastic overpriced piece of shit farmworld-on-an-iWhatever, developers, pick me! Pick ME!" Of course, this is ignoring from the fact that they look like ass and are utilizing the worst control scheme known to man.

I'm half expecting someone to announce next week that they've ported their newest game engine to a freakin' TI-82.

Re:Ported? (1)

MartinSchou (1360093) | more than 3 years ago | (#34078456)

I'm half expecting someone to announce next week that they've ported their newest game engine to a freakin' TI-82.

It's not his newest game, but I wouldn't be surprised to learn, that John Carmack has ported Commander Keen [wikipedia.org] to the TI-82 ...

60fps on a phone? Why? (2, Interesting)

Luckyo (1726890) | more than 3 years ago | (#34074244)

To break down the question: Why do we need this much fps in a game on a ~4 inch screen?

To understand the importance of the question, we need to understand how human eye works, and how it processes images.
Essentially, we have two kinds of cells in our eye capable of sensing light. One is capable of sensing shades of gray, and other senses a certain color (there are three different cells in this category, sensing different light wavelengths). Notably, cells sensing shades of gray can track many more image changes/second then those sensing colors due to their original purpose - tracking movement (for hunter-prey scenarios). Another thing to note is that while focus of our vision, the area that covers a very small center zone of our field of view houses vast majority of the cells that can sense colors, most of the gray-sensing cells are housed outside focus, in area of peripheral vision.

As a result, when you play a game on a large screen at home, a large portion of the screen's image is sensed by the area out of focus, and when your frame per second counter is below 60ish, the out-of-focus area begins to see separate images, while your focus still sees the flowing animation. This is what causes the uncomfortable discrepancy during high motion scenes when viewer still sees the fluid animation in his focus, but his peripheral vision doesn't, making the image look "choppy".

Now, enter mobile phones. The screen is actually small enough to mostly, if not entirely fit into our focus. This drastically cuts the need for high fps.

So why is Carmack talking about 60 fps on a graphics engine designed for phones? Is he actually clueless about the issue, is it marketing speak, or does he simply want to advertise to developers who may not be as familiar with the issue as he himself is?

Re:60fps on a phone? Why? (1)

cymbeline (1792306) | more than 3 years ago | (#34074340)

I personally get the impression that John Carmack is filled with geeky pride that he got Rage running at 60fps on an iPhone. I know I would. I don't think this is really any kind of marketing strategy.

I find a 60hz refresh rate on an iPhone device impressive, mostly as a feat of engineering. Carmack tends to be a developer who tries to get every ounce of computing power out of whatever platform he's working on.

Re:60fps on a phone? Why? (1)

hedwards (940851) | more than 3 years ago | (#34075314)

Indeed. The only reason why we're still talking about him is that he does things like this in an effort to see how far he can push the boundaries. The iPhone is a terrible platform for this sort of thing. The controls alone are enough to doom it to obscurity, but it's an interesting programming and design challenge and a way of reminding the other developers that he hasn't gone soft. I'm sure it's also serving as a way of making sure the engine scales well and has other practical applications as well. But he's a god in this space for a reason.

Re:60fps on a phone? Why? (1)

Thing 1 (178996) | more than 3 years ago | (#34083218)

Half style points for using "doom", but you should have also added something about "competitors will be quaking in their boots". And also, "he's got a keen eye for detail", or something.

Re:60fps on a phone? Why? (1)

rrossman2 (844318) | more than 3 years ago | (#34075492)

But its not a 60hz refresh rate, its 60 fps. They imply different things. The 60hz would be up to the screen, the 60 fps means the game + graphics processor can feed that many frames per second to the display driver, but if the display driver only does 45hzs.. Then unneeded frames. If the screen does 120hz refresh rate, then the 60 fps is really only feeding the display driver half of what the actual display panel is capable of

Re:60fps on a phone? Why? (4, Informative)

willy_me (212994) | more than 3 years ago | (#34074382)

So why is Carmack talking about 60 fps on a graphics engine designed for phones?

Generating graphics is not the only task given to the CPU*. There are many other parts to a game that all require CPU time. So if a game can get high frame rates it implies that there will be some CPU available for the other important parts of a game.

*And I realize that the GPU does most of the work with graphics but the CPU is also an important part of the equation.

Re:60fps on a phone? Why? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34074588)

Indeed, add some AI running around, physics, combat, post-processing etc. and this will drop to 10-30 FPS average very quickly.

Fucking magnets, how do they work? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34074398)

Regardless, below 60 looks like crap to me. It might not be an issue for you, but I definitely prefer 60fps. Even on an iPod Touch. I don't know why Canabalt has to run below 60fps and it sucks.

Re:Fucking magnets, how do they work? (1)

hedwards (940851) | more than 3 years ago | (#34075324)

And I'm sure you also are capable of telling the difference between a CD and an MP3 encoded at 192kbps variable as well. Apart from a small minority of people that get headaches you shouldn't be able to notice a difference until you get down to at least 30fps or so and probably under 24fps.

Re:Fucking magnets, how do they work? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34078198)

Holy shit, people like you are fucking clueless. Why don't you download an old as shit FPS that you can run at 120fps, then drop the fps down to 24 and see if you can tell the difference. Report back with details.

Re:Fucking magnets, how do they work? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34085318)

I don't know why you're expecting top-end performance out of a one-dimensional game designed by a two-bit artist running on a 3rd generation media player, but then again, you're a fucking four-eyed troll.

Re:60fps on a phone? Why? (1)

JAlexoi (1085785) | more than 3 years ago | (#34074408)

Well he probably does not have a degree in human biology, so it's understandable...

Re:60fps on a phone? Why? (1)

Alarindris (1253418) | more than 3 years ago | (#34074454)

I'm pretty sure it's just anecdotal. I'm not really sure why you would want to actively throttle the fps, it's probably not an issue. Think "Oh, look, it's running at 60 fps."

Re:60fps on a phone? Why? (2, Informative)

MartinSchou (1360093) | more than 3 years ago | (#34074466)

So why is Carmack talking about 60 fps on a graphics engine designed for phones? Is he actually clueless about the issue, is it marketing speak, or does he simply want to advertise to developers who may not be as familiar with the issue as he himself is?

Or perhaps, just perhaps, he is happy about 60 fps on a phone, simply because it gives a 100% headroom for situations and games that require more than the RAGE demo?

I don't know about you, but personally I'd rather have 100% headroom than 0%.

Re:60fps on a phone? Why? (1)

pinkeen (1804300) | more than 3 years ago | (#34074524)

Maybe we don't need 60fps, but certainly the more the better, especially that no game runs at x fps flat - there are always more graphics-intensive scenes when the framerate drops significantly.

But IMHO he's just bragging, he showed only some very low poly scenes there.

Re:60fps on a phone? Why? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34074554)

Although the animation can be ok with less frames per second, another thing to take into account is the fact that the delay beetween your input and the action on screen is proportional to the frame rate, so the game becomes more responsible at higher framerates. Put the lack of physical feedback to the input in the equation and you see that this kind of fps can be very important

Re:60fps on a phone? Why? (1)

Luckyo (1726890) | more than 3 years ago | (#34074688)

This is actually a physical impossiblity. The nerve signal conduction velocity is between 3 and 120 m/s for myelinated nerve cells, usually averaging around 20-30 for motor control cells (iirc, quick wikipedia search suggests same numbers).

This means that at around 1 meter length from brain to fingers, you get about 1/30 sec lag on finger response after signal being sent by the brain.

As a result, anything lower then this would likely be impossible to really affect due to biological limitations. You're most likely thinking of input LAG, where our actions come on screen delayed, in other words there are several frames that show action as if we didn't already start doing something differently. This indeed causes discrepancy as brain's logic is used to real world being immediately affected by our actions, and having artificial world in the game "life out" a period after we have visibly affected it breaks this effect.

For difference between 30 and 60 fps to really affect our perception of input lag is, imho out of realm of physical possibility due to above reasons.

Re:60fps on a phone? Why? (2, Interesting)

NoSig (1919688) | more than 3 years ago | (#34075356)

Let's go with your stated finger-lag of 1/30 second. For an insanely fast game, it will display a reaction to that on the next frame, which at 30 fps can be 1/30 second later. So the total lag is 2/30, which is double of the lag in the real world. If you run at 60 fps, the total lag will instead be 1/30 finger lag plus 1/60 game lag, for a total of 3/60, which is 1/60 less than before. There is no physical impossibility in being able to detect a difference of 1/60 second. Now add to that that some games take, say, 4 frames to react, and then at 30 fps you get a lag of 5/30 second while at 60 fps you get a lag of 6/60, which is 4/60=1/15 second better. And yes, Rage isn't just a display engine, it's also doing path finding and so on at 60 fps.

Re:60fps on a phone? Why? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34075864)

You're most likely thinking of input LAG.

Yeah... that's pretty much exactly what he said. "The DELAY between your INPUT and the action on the screen [...]" (my emphasis). I don't know how else one would define "input lag."

He never suggested that a game's FPS somehow affects human physiology, only that once those physiological processes have occured (i.e. the time required to process audio/visual information + reaction time), there is an additional time required for the computer to process your input and update the game-state and render buffer (which is measured in FPS).

I tend to agree that anything above 30-40 FPS is negligable (I wouldn't say impossible to percieve, but you start to reach a point of diminishing returns). Of course, all things being equal, 60 FPS is obviously preferable to 30 FPS, which I think is the whole point of Carmack touting that figure. It's about performance. Since we know that a game's FPS isn't constant and does drop at times, 60 FPS is a significant benchmark.

Re:60fps on a phone? Why? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34078300)

Not only this, but the input device boys need to widen their panties. Since the human body cannot react fast enough, things like delays that are below this threshhold are irrelevant. This goes for network latency as well.

Re:60fps on a phone? Why? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34074568)

Some phones are now shipping with hdmi outputs. I know I would want a good experience, even on larger screens.

Re:60fps on a phone? Why? (1)

Luckyo (1726890) | more than 3 years ago | (#34074616)

Well, numerically many if not most of these phones are nokia n8. These have a proper GPU, proper swapping and proper multitasking, and therefore aren't subjects to limitations discussed in the article.

Same goes for high end android in many cases as well.

Re:60fps on a phone? Why? (1)

lilfields (961485) | more than 3 years ago | (#34074658)

I think he's trying to show off the flexibility of the RAGE engine. Let's face it, id's first engine titles are showcases to win licenses...that's where they make their real money. Think Quake 3 engine, and (a failure to many) the Doom 3 engine.

Re:60fps on a phone? Why? (2, Interesting)

Narishma (822073) | more than 3 years ago | (#34075214)

They're not in that market anymore. They do not want to license (and support) their new engines.

Re:60fps on a phone? Why? (1)

SanityInAnarchy (655584) | more than 3 years ago | (#34074780)

I can definitely see why you'd want it on a tablet, even if you don't on a phone.

Re:60fps on a phone? Why? (1)

Andy Smith (55346) | more than 3 years ago | (#34074814)

"Is he actually clueless about the issue"

I'm sure the number of relevant issues that Carmack is ignorant about could be counted on no hands.

Re:60fps on a phone? Why? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34074882)

All he is saying is the device is capable and worth investing in with technical marketing technobabble.

Being capable of 60fps is interesting on many fronts:

- input latency to visual feedback is reduced. As you pointed out, this may be visually useless but instant feedback based on input is certainly not useless. The original Super Monkey Ball on the iPhone as well as Katamari Damacy wee especially bad (I agree, the game mechanic for these two games is inherently inertia based, with lag intentionally built in, but things turned to hell when the graphics got more complex)

- 60fps reduced to 20fps equals 60% more battery life. If I can play a reduced FPS experience for twice as long, that seems like a pretty sweet set of options (I'm assuming the RAGE engine will be licensed, just as every other ID engine has. I understand that other factors effect battery life, and the correlation to frame rate is non-linear, but hot damn, looking sweet like RAGE with the possibility of extended battery life sounds like an awesome proposition.

- scalability for developers. Similar arguement to the battery life one, but if you are creating a non-exclusive game, knowing capabilities is key.

Re:60fps on a phone? Why? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34075200)

So why is Carmack talking about 60 fps on a graphics engine designed for phones? Is he actually clueless about the issue, is it marketing speak, or does he simply want to advertise to developers who may not be as familiar with the issue as he himself is?

I have a small iphone game on the app store, and turning the game from 30 to 60 makes the movement of the ships less jerky. I can see the difference from close or from far away. I don't know what mumbo jumbo you are speaking about. It makes you look experimented, but I look at my game and prefer 60fps.

This doesn't happen only in games. I've made utility programs which scroll tables up/down. If you don't make your table scroll at 60fps you really notice how jerky it is and will dismiss the program as slow or sloppy.

Re:60fps on a phone? Why? (1)

TheKidWho (705796) | more than 3 years ago | (#34075212)

The majority of gamers would disagree with you.

Re:60fps on a phone? Why? (5, Informative)

UnknownSoldier (67820) | more than 3 years ago | (#34075384)

Sorry for sounding like a jerk, but your exposition on rods and cones is all nice and good, but it is _completely_ missing the point, and tells you have never actually shipped a game.

1. You provide "head room" or "breathing room" so when the level designers and artists go crazy, you don't blow you frame rate budget,
2. If you can't hit 60 Hz when you ship, you can still EASILY hit 30 Hz. It is MUCH harder when you are already barely pushing 30 Hz at alpha/beta and you need to guarantee every playable area needs to hit 30 Hz without having to drastically redo levels / models, and/or optimize code
3. 60 Hz is smoother then 30 Hz, (yes there are people that can tell)

> So why is Carmack talking about 60 fps on a graphics engine designed for phones? Is he actually clueless about the issue,
As he practically _invented_ 3d first person shooters on PC, I _seriously_ doubt that.

Re:60fps on a phone? Why? (1)

Entropy997 (1694668) | more than 3 years ago | (#34075540)

"3. 60 Hz is smoother then 30 Hz, (yes there are people that can tell)" The whole thing about certain frame rates being un-seeable is total crap. I spent a lot of time with the Source engine playing games with frame rate monitoring on.
You can definitely see the difference. What I have witnessed is the true maxing out of frame rates. Basically the frame rate gets smoother and smoother up until about 100 or 120, where the speed of frames causes everything to move in fast motion.
All of those people claiming that 70 or 90 FPS is unnoticeable have not actually done any experiments.

Re:60fps on a phone? Why? (1)

KarmaMB84 (743001) | more than 3 years ago | (#34077568)

It's because unlike with movies, TV etc video games do not produce a perfect distribution of frames at the refresh rate of the monitor. Sometimes a new frame just hasn't been rendered yet when the monitor refreshes leaving it stuck with a stale frame for that refresh. When the next refresh comes up there's new frames and it uses one causing a sometimes noticable (depending on what is going on) jerk as it goes from the stale frame to a fresh one.

Re:60fps on a phone? Why? (1)

UnknownSoldier (67820) | more than 3 years ago | (#34084330)

> The whole thing about certain frame rates being un-seeable is total crap.

Yup, completely agree.

Back in the CRT days I would prefer a 100 Hz monitor refresh rate for a steady image, with a frame rate of 72 Hz. Decreasing returns after that.

Re:60fps on a phone? Why? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34075700)

> 3. 60 Hz is smoother then 30 Hz, (yes there are people that can tell)

Pretty much everybody.

Re:60fps on a phone? Why? (1)

onefriedrice (1171917) | more than 3 years ago | (#34077350)

3. 60 Hz is smoother then 30 Hz, (yes there are people that can tell)

Indeed, the vast majority of people can tell the difference between 30fps and 60fps, even on a small device. Even the differences between 30fps and 40fps or 50fps and 60fps are quite apparent to many people.

Re:60fps on a phone? Why? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34077808)

Just to clarify that: Yes, Carmack practically invented the first-person shooter. However, he didn't invent games with 3d. 3d video games and 3d texturing had been done long before, and many textbooks had been written on the subject. In fact, the original Doom code was amateurish and used polar 3d coordinates, something not done in his later games. Carmack warned people who looked at the code that it was odd, and said he did it because he was still learning how to program in 3d. In other words, he helped to refine the idea of a 1st person shooter in realtime, and he optimized some of the viewing algorithms for casting and drawing fake 3d ceilings and floors (because he had only a 386 processor to work with). But he didn't come anywhere close to being influentional in the science of 3d systems or 3d rendering beyond his Doom painter's optimization. Mike Abrash was far more innovative and helped to take 3d rendering tricks to a new level. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Abrash

Re:60fps on a phone? Why? (1)

CreateWindowEx (630955) | more than 3 years ago | (#34080352)

Let's not forget latency. On modern 3D architectures, there can be several frames between when the game engine processes user input and when the result appears on the screen. Typically the CPU is filling out a display list for frame 3 while the GPU is rendering frame 2, and the display is showing frame 1. And this is over any additional latency in input processing. At 60 fps, 3 frames is under 50 ms, while 30 fps it's 100 ms. For an amazing display of what low latency is like, try playing something like Kaboom on an Atari connected to an analog tube TV. No buffeting, 60 fps, so only 16 ms between moving the paddle and seeing it move on screen. For racing games, the latency has a huge impact on the user's ability to control a vehicle without entering oscillation. Also, depending how far you hold the phone from your eyes, an iPhone game could potentially take up any amount of the visual field. 60 fps is definitely noticeable on an iPhone. Whether or not the tradeoff of reduced graphical detail versus 30 fps is worth it is a very subjective choice, which is why even on home consoles, there is no standard.

Re:60fps on a phone? Why? (2, Insightful)

billcopc (196330) | more than 3 years ago | (#34085278)

He's talking about 60 fps because he's proud to have achieved this level of performance on what is widely perceived to be a piece of shit platform for 3D graphics.

It's the same pride that keeps the demoscene alive to this day, spurring coders to cram dazzling animations and music in 4096 bytes of mind-twisting code. That drive to bring out a computer's fullest potential through tireless tweaking, profiling and creative thought.

It is far too easy to be lazy with today's fast PCs and GPUs. There is so much power in these chips that even the sloppiest code can run at acceptable speeds. It takes true dedication and a bit of masochism to buck that trend and push this generous hardware to its limits, and that is what Carmack does best.

If he could make Rage run at 100 fps on the iPhone, he would - he knows full well that it would be impractical, but from an engineering perspective, it would be more efficient, meaning you could take the 100 fps engine and lock it to 60 fps (or even 30), and benefit from lower power consumption or more CPU available for other tasks.

Re:60fps on a phone? Why? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34085982)

You are a Douche. He is trying to show that a high complexity engine can run smoothly on the iOS. Nothing more. No one gives a shit about your knowledge of frame rates. Asswipe.

It has to be asked... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34074378)

If a lowly phone with a 2003-era GPU can manage this, how come we need dual or even quad core PCs and gigs of RAM for many modern games just to get *acceptable* performance? I'm guessing this is because the process of making a PC game goes something like this these days for most companies:

A. Release console game.
B. Re-compile it for a Windows PC.
C. Include some unwanted garbage that installs hidden drivers or services on the customers' machines. Bonus points for making the consumer sign up for a service just to save their progress in the single-player game.

This is why I don't buy PC games anymore. I seriously saw a PC game tell me to "press START" yesterday. It was hard to hold back the laughter.

Yep, the only modern PC game I play regularly is The Dark Mod. (www.thedarkmod.com). I have ZERO faith in Thief 4.

Hopefully Carmack won't let us down though. He never has in the past. Doom 3 was great!

Re:It has to be asked... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34074710)

You haven't seen the tech demo have you? It's doing far far less than games were in 2003 -- think of it as an interactive screensaver by comparison. This isn't ARMA2. And yet it's impressive, for a mobile phone.

Re:It has to be asked... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34076934)

I have ZERO faith in Thief 4

That is an odd statement considering all of the Thief games were great and the last one, Deadly Shadows, was the best so far.

Re:It has to be asked... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34086138)

Please tell me you're joking. The player can't even swim in T3, nor can he use rope arrows. There are a fraction of fan-missions for Deadly Shadows compared to the original games, and the game is still buggy. Last time I tried to get into it, I kept getting stuck in a float-pose. These issues will never be fixed, because the source code will never be released. I'm glad somebody created a Thief-style game on modern technology which will one day be opened up. Thief 3 was just too buggy, and T1/2 are really showing their age now.

Re:It has to be asked... (1)

AHuxley (892839) | more than 3 years ago | (#34077412)

World size, monster count, AI, texture size. If you get it wrong your back to MS 640p Halo and are named and shamed.
Real big new games need real power ie gpu over large displays, cpu, physics, sounds, AI, networking.
This is why I don't buy console games. Something has to give to get it working on a few $10's worth of chips and its the stuff that makes a 'new' game worth playing imho.
Do you really want to be playing a PPC "Apple Mac" port in 2011?

Re:It has to be asked... (2, Insightful)

billcopc (196330) | more than 3 years ago | (#34085404)

The quad-core PC, fancy GPU and gigs of RAM allow you to run your PC game at a much higher resolution and graphic quality than any current-gen console. If all you want is 1280x720 with no antialiasing, you can probably get away with a dinky $50 graphics card.

Personally, I like playing flashy games on 3 WQHD monitors with all the sliders maxed out. That's 12 times more dots than a standard HDTV, and a bit more rendering detail due to AA/AF postprocessing, so it's understandable that such ridiculous graphics would require expensive high-end hardware. It's not required to just play the thing if you have more reasonable expectations than I.

Linux port? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34075310)

Android? Are you serious?
What about Linux port???
How many people do you think will buy Android version and How many people will download Linux installer?

not really (1)

argStyopa (232550) | more than 3 years ago | (#34076554)

I'd prefer that id spend a little more time on GAME, less on getting said product to run on the phone in your pocket.

I mean, have you actually PLAYED the last 3 crap titles from id? Bleargh.

I will always respect id for what they invented for computer gaming. The number of hours I wasted trying to control Canalzone alone....

But really, they haven't produced a game worth PLAYING since Quake2.

Re:not really (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34077410)

Yeah, because Carmack creates all of the art and designs the levels and everything, right?

Re:not really (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34078842)

I'd prefer that id spend a little more time on GAME, less on getting said product to run on the phone in your pocket.

I mean, have you actually PLAYED the last 3 crap titles from id? Bleargh.

Id isn't a game company, they're a 3d engine company. Their business model lies around licensing Id Tech engines to other game companies. You can consider the games they make to be tech demos for the engine. If you do that, spending time making the product run on the phone in your pocket is exactly what they should be doing, considering the recent popularity of the medium.

file nodes, exploiting flash memory on ios (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34078038)

Paper on this at https://docs.google.com/fileview?id=0BzM4orHA3iGxMTUyNzQ3MzMtOGM1Ny00NjU3LWI4OTEtYjkyZGJmOTI4ODNi&hl=en
See page 51

That reminds me Palm OS 3.x (1)

GPLHost-Thomas (1330431) | more than 3 years ago | (#34078380)

iOS does not have a swapfile, so if you use too much dynamic memory, the OS gives you a warning or two, then kills your process. The bane of iOS developers is that "too much" is not defined, and in fact varies based on what other apps (Safari, Mail, iPod, etc) that are in memory have done

That clearly reminds me PalmOS (the 3.0 to 3.5 Palm time), where you didn't even have enough RAM allocated dynamically to be able to do such a simple thing as decompressing a Gif file (the lookup table didn't fit in it). Like with the iOS now, the doc was pretty much not clear about how much RAM you could allocate when running an application, but we finally found that we could only count on 32MB !!! So, at the end, after 10 years, phone operating systems didn't evolve much in terms of stupidity... :)

Re:That reminds me Palm OS 3.x (1)

tlhIngan (30335) | more than 3 years ago | (#34089312)

That clearly reminds me PalmOS (the 3.0 to 3.5 Palm time), where you didn't even have enough RAM allocated dynamically to be able to do such a simple thing as decompressing a Gif file (the lookup table didn't fit in it). Like with the iOS now, the doc was pretty much not clear about how much RAM you could allocate when running an application, but we finally found that we could only count on 32MB !!! So, at the end, after 10 years, phone operating systems didn't evolve much in terms of stupidity... :)

You do realize why, right? Like the original iPhone, iPHone 3G, iPOd Touch (original and 2G) only had 128MB of RAM. The iPhone 3GS and iPod Touch 3G and 4G and iPad only have 256MB, and iPhone4 has 512MB.

Given the kernel takes a bit off, plus all the other stuff running in the background, being able to consistently allocate 32MB seems reasonable. Especially since iOS 4 supports suspending apps and backgrounding services, which means chunks of RAM can be taken away.

And Linux suffers the same fate too - you may have heard of the oomkiller? On embedded platforms, oomkiller can strike quite randomly, depending on what else is running at the same time so even allocating a huge chunk of RAM can easily result in getting killed. At one point, we decided it was best to enable swap on the hard drive even though it killed disk performance - having our embedded app die randomly was a far worse outcome than the losee of performance with swap.

Without swap, your options are limited should people want to allocate huge swaths of RAM. The fact that you get warnings to clean up your RAM is a small advantage. And PalmOS devices have to split working RAM with storage - when you're talking about running in 1/2/4MB of RAM, a lot of tricks are done because you can't blithely allocate RAM.

Re:That reminds me Palm OS 3.x (1)

GPLHost-Thomas (1330431) | more than 3 years ago | (#34091370)

Frankly, and excuse me to say it this way, but that's bullshit. If there's 512 MB of RAM, and you can allocate 32 MB only, what's the point of having that much available on the hardware? Just so that the specs looks good for new buyers? I'm ok that there should be limits set somehow, but not like that. How could an application like Stellarium that I run in my n900 run on iOS ? Are you going to say "sorry, there's too much risk that your phone will crash, so I wont let you load all your stars database"?

As for PalmOS, that was bullshit the an even more stupid way. COME ON, only 32 KB of RAM, even when there was 3MB absolutely and totally available? And what about this RAM pagination stupidity that they came with, when the processor didn't even need it? Are you going to say that there is a valid reason behind it, appart from developers of PalmOS knowing absolutely nothing but (old type of 68k based) Mac OS?

Hmm (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34083452)

How about he makes a game with this engine before porting it to other platforms. I haven't seen anything with this engine, its becoming the Duke Nukem of game engines.

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