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Oracle To Monetize Java VM

Soulskill posted more than 3 years ago | from the who-runs-your-pr-team-anyway dept.

Java 641

jtotheh writes "According to the Register, Oracle is going to make two tiers of Java Virtual Machine — a free one and a premium paid one. 'Adam Messinger, Oracle vice president of development, told QCon that Oracle plans to offer a "premium" edition of the JDK in addition to the open-source JDK. Both, it seems, will be based on a converged JRockit VM and the Hotspot JVM from Sun Microsystems. The converged JVM will be released under the OpenJDK project. ... Messinger didn't explain how the premium JVM would differ [from] the free version, but the premium edition will likely see performance tuning and tie-ins to Oracle's middleware.'"

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641 comments

f1rst (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34152816)

http://goatse.fr/ [goatse.fr]

mm (5, Insightful)

chibiace (898665) | more than 3 years ago | (#34152818)

the death of java?

Re:mm (5, Funny)

HelloKitty2 (1585373) | more than 3 years ago | (#34152862)

No, this is the birth of new opportunities in the java landscape, this is a clear sign of Oracle's dedication to the java community. The high-end Mercedes offering will finally allow you to look down on those Fiat drivers and know that your money is well spent.

Re:mm (4, Insightful)

Slackware95 (1862096) | more than 3 years ago | (#34152958)

I agree with this statement, this is indeed the birth of new opportunity - A new technology to replace Java...

Sid you mean Java or Java-VM or Java-SE or Java-EE (2, Interesting)

krischik (781389) | more than 3 years ago | (#34153060)

I agree with this statement, this is indeed the birth of new opportunity - A new technology to replace Java...

If you want to replace Java you can just use Scala. It can do all that Java can do and is a lot better. Or did you mean to replace the Java-VM, or Java-SE or Java-EE. Then please be more precise in future.

Re:mm (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34153148)

I'm personally hoping someone will come up with an open-source implementation of C# not based on the .NET libraries or the Mono toolkit, but a pure native-code compiler, with selectable manual or automatic memory management. I believe C# is 'better than the orignal' Java. It's only drawback is that it's tied to Micrsoft and Windows.

It's pretty obvious that Oracle is hell bent on either making bumper profits off Java or killing it. They won't have it any other way.

Re:mm (1)

Lennie (16154) | more than 3 years ago | (#34153262)

Only thing I know of is Vala.

Re:mm (4, Interesting)

levell (538346) | more than 3 years ago | (#34153024)

Given that Google is on the sharp end of Oracle monetizing Java, anyone else think they might start to push Google Go [golang.org] really hard? It's immature at the moment but it looks really nice and I think as it matures it could really catch on.

Re:mm (1)

HelloKitty2 (1585373) | more than 3 years ago | (#34153234)

no classes, no game

Re:mm (1)

krischik (781389) | more than 3 years ago | (#34153120)

Which part: Java, Java-VM, Java-SE, Java-EE or all of them?

fir5t (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34152822)

http://goatse.fr/ [goatse.fr]

Good. (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34152828)

Good, now maybe someone will come up with a better language to use.

not trolling or anything, the only reason java is tolerable at all these days is because finally, most devices, including mobile devices, have become powerful enough to withstand the sheer bloat. 10 years ago, running anything java was painful.

now modern mobile devices are more powerful than those systems from 10 years ago, I think that's the only reason java is usable.

wanna bet the premium version will promote cross-platform compatibility while the free version is restricted to whatever platform oracle chooses? (ie, more than likely windows)

Re:Good. (2, Funny)

devbox (1919724) | more than 3 years ago | (#34152868)

There is already C#. Compared to Java, it has been the better language all time.

OS support for C# (1)

krischik (781389) | more than 3 years ago | (#34153110)

But C# needs CLI and .NET as platform. And those platforms don't have the same OS support as the JAVA-VM has.

Of course most here mix up language (Java) and platform (Java-SE, Java-EE) and don't really know what they want to replace with what.

Scala, Groovy, Ada. (2, Insightful)

krischik (781389) | more than 3 years ago | (#34153106)

We already got better languages like Scala for the JVM. The Ada for JVM project has been restarted as well. If it just the language you want to replace - that is not a problem.

So what do you want to replace here? Ahh, well as you are an AC you won't answer.

Re:Scala, Groovy, Ada. (1)

wmac (1107843) | more than 3 years ago | (#34153156)

The language you are pushing in multiple messages will never gain enough ground.

Re:Scala, Groovy, Ada. (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34153254)

We already got better languages like Scala for the JVM.

Yay, let's push a language that's even more bent on allocating trillions of disposable objects per second than Java.
But no, that's not a problem, because if you reserve 2GB of RAM per application to amortize the speed cost, it's not that slow!

Re:Scala, Groovy, Ada. (3, Interesting)

swilver (617741) | more than 3 years ago | (#34153294)

...and how would it effect those languages when there's only a sub-standard free JVM available?

Re:Good. (1)

Bert64 (520050) | more than 3 years ago | (#34153268)

And now that hardware has finally caught up with the bloat of java, people are moving to things like ruby which are even slower...

Suicide? The end of java. (5, Insightful)

WolphFang (1077109) | more than 3 years ago | (#34152830)

Suicide? Sounds they are working on ending Java in a hurry. :(

Re:Suicide? The end of java. (3, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34152848)

Pretty much, yes. At least, the end of themselves as an open-source company. It remains to be seen if their special sauce will be worth buying. It probably will be, for people who are already trapped into Oracle/Sun (just as it is with Intel's compilers, that just happen to smoke everyone else's on Intel hardware) but for everyone else the world will just go on as it has.

Re:Suicide? The end of java. (4, Insightful)

whiteboy86 (1930018) | more than 3 years ago | (#34152916)

... people buying.. who are already trapped into Oracle/Sun...

And this is children why Java, Obj-C, C# and other 'corporate' languages exist in the first place.

Re:Suicide? The end of java. (2, Insightful)

MrCoke (445461) | more than 3 years ago | (#34152852)

Why is this any different as Qt (also has 2 tiers)?

Re:Suicide? The end of java. (1)

WolphFang (1077109) | more than 3 years ago | (#34152872)

User base. Psychology. That which is open is now closed. And by the way 'f*' off to the community in general. I am sure more than one group of developers is seriously looking at core language jump.

Platform jump (1)

krischik (781389) | more than 3 years ago | (#34153070)

A language jump is easy: use Scala. What you mean is a platform (Java-SE, Java-EE) jump.

Re:Platform jump (1)

ubersoldat2k7 (1557119) | more than 3 years ago | (#34153276)

Tell me, how is Scala supposed to work if, for some reason, some of the features it uses, go to the pay-to-use JVM?

Re:Suicide? The end of java. (4, Interesting)

VendettaMF (629699) | more than 3 years ago | (#34153218)

>> I am sure more than one group of developers is
>> seriously looking at core language jump.

I know we are.
Oracle is quite simply not a rational enough company to entrust with our ongoing development.

Decisions, decisions.C# on MONO or C++ as itself. Pros and Cons for each are obvious, but the actual final scores will be hard to determine efficiently.

Individually I'm leaning to C++ and arguing the point that sooner or later MS will do to C# & associated platforms what Oracle is doing to Java now, and what lawyers may say about MONO now will count for nothing in reality when MS decides it's time to drop the hammer.

Wow... (0, Troll)

vikisonline (1917814) | more than 3 years ago | (#34152840)

Wow they want to make money but it will end up just killing java... Its a crappy language anyways. There are many nice cross-platform c++ libraries like QT still. Hopefully Nokia wont go the way of Sun. One more reason for me to hate oracle more.

Re:Wow... (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34153130)

NOKIA will be assimilated by Microsoft. The process is already underway.

Re:Wow... (1)

Nursie (632944) | more than 3 years ago | (#34153204)

WTF??

Seriously, WTF are you on about? Have I missed something?

That would be terrible!

Re:Wow... (2, Informative)

contra_mundi (1362297) | more than 3 years ago | (#34153302)

The new Nokia CEO is Stephen Elop, the former head of Microsoft Corp.’s business unit.
Source. [businessweek.com]

Also there have been talk of and/or more integration of their services:
https://www.microsoft.com/Presspass/press/2007/aug07/08-22NokiaMSLiveServicesPR.mspx [microsoft.com]
https://www.microsoft.com/presspass/press/2009/aug09/08-12pixipr.mspx [microsoft.com]
http://techcrunch.com/2010/09/15/will-microsoft-and-nokia-team-up-to-take-on-apple-google/ [techcrunch.com]

I don't get it (5, Insightful)

rumith (983060) | more than 3 years ago | (#34152850)

Either Larry Ellison is smart beyond my imagination, or he's too stupid to understand that he's basically killing MySQL, OpenOffice and Java - arguably the three most valuable software assets he bought with Sun.

Re:I don't get it (5, Insightful)

Angostura (703910) | more than 3 years ago | (#34152876)

I suspect that Ellison evaluates 'valuable' in straightforward monetary terms. "Is Java making me money? No? It's not valuable"

Re:I don't get it (2, Insightful)

Sc4Freak (1479423) | more than 3 years ago | (#34153080)

Well, as a manager, that's his job - to maximise the wealth of the company shareholders. If Java isn't making money (directly or indirectly), then he needs to institute change so that it *does* make money one way or another. Otherwise he wouldn't be doing his job (and then he'd be fired and replaced by the board of directors).

Maybe tiering the JVM is the best way to maximise shareholder wealth, maybe it isn't. Either way, it should be obvious that any corporate manager would see "valuable" in a purely monetary sense. Even if Oracle decided to keep the JVM completely free, it'd be because they believe that keeping it free would make them more money than charging for it (maybe they think it'd drive sales of their other products or something like that, who knows). Everything a company does, even if it seems altruistic, is somehow contributing to the company's bottom line.

Re:I don't get it (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34153160)

There was always fight within SUN whether/how to monetize Java and JEE. Some wanted everything for free, hoping HW would sell and pay for SW; others wanted to go non-free way to charge for everything (Solaris). Some people wanted to use tiered approach (JEE/MySQL), giving the base for free and charge for special functionality/tools on top of that. The problem was that this strategy was changing every week. And then SUN was forced by investment funds to sell itself and the rest is a history...

Re:I don't get it (0, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34153222)

Well, as a labour camp guard, that's his job - to maximise the pain and misery of the interns of the gulag.

Fixed that for you, doing your job is never an excuse for anything.

Re:I don't get it (1)

Nursie (632944) | more than 3 years ago | (#34153232)

"Well, as a manager, that's his job - to maximise the wealth of the company shareholders. If Java isn't making money (directly or indirectly), then he needs to institute change so that it *does* make money one way or another."

No, he has no such responsibility. He could decide that Java cannot easily be made profitable or sufficiently profitable and can or sell off the whole unit.

Re:I don't get it (3, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34153116)

Maybe killing those technologies is something he wants... . It is not uncommon for companies to acquire another just to silently kill of the technology.

Personally I started looking into postgresql because to be honest I don't trust oracle and I'm certain mysql is the next thing onto the chopping block. It is a shame that a lot of providers (vps is to expensive here) don't see this coming and the number of hosts with postgresql support is very small.

Re:I don't get it (5, Insightful)

drerwk (695572) | more than 3 years ago | (#34153214)

...MySQL, OpenOffice and Java - arguably the three most valuable software assets he bought with Sun.

But not valuable enough to keep Sun in business for themselves.

Surprised? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34152854)

Don't be. This is what Oracle planned from the beginning of buying Sun.

Re:Surprised? (1)

Lennie (16154) | more than 3 years ago | (#34153290)

It has for example been revealed that Oracle explicitly asked about Google and patents before the deal and supposedly didn't even want the deal if it wasn't useful.

Pay for performance? (3, Informative)

whiteboy86 (1930018) | more than 3 years ago | (#34152856)

If you want performance then you have better options, some of the IEEE standard languages for example and that is what pros like Ebay or Google are using anyway, not Java. Plus you buy yourself some freedom from the corporate control like this.

Damn Commie Bastards !! (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34152860)

Commies, the lot of them !! Always trying to make a buck of the working man all the while keeping him down !! Fuck Oracle, I say, Fuck Them !! It's one thing to scam the US Govermnent, but it's entirely another to fuck the working man !!

Re:Damn Commie Bastards !! (0, Offtopic)

polar red (215081) | more than 3 years ago | (#34152928)

and how is that communism ?

Stalin vs the kulaks (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34152966)

THAT sort of communism.

Re:Stalin vs the kulaks (0, Offtopic)

polar red (215081) | more than 3 years ago | (#34153086)

I don't think there has ever been a 'correct' implementation of communism. communism hates a strong central leadership, and it needs democracy very much.

Oracle is doing everything they can to fuck up (5, Interesting)

Sycraft-fu (314770) | more than 3 years ago | (#34152882)

I'm going to laugh as their Sun acquisition goes down in flames and they end up losing money on the whole deal. They seem to be working to identify any market they can that things are working in and eliminating it. They've done a great job at getting us to work at getting rid of all our Solaris systems as fast as we can.

While in theory this could be fine for Java, I can't imagine it will be being how poorly Oracle has handled things so far. Most likely it'll be a case where the free JVM will be a piece of crap on purpose, and the pay for JVM will be required for anything to work well. Ya, well, that'll fly like not at all. People are not going to go and buy something to make Java apps work better. Perhaps companies who rely heavily on Java on the back end will, but more likely they'll just stop upgrading and switch to something else.

I guess we'll see, maybe I'm wrong and the premium version of the JVM really will provide worthwhile premium features that high end users want, while the normal JVM remains for normal people. However I doubt it. I think they'll try and charge every person for the JVM on their computer, which just won't fly.

Re:Oracle is doing everything they can to fuck up (3, Insightful)

polemon (743631) | more than 3 years ago | (#34152956)

As I understand it, when the open source version gets adopted by a voluntarily group of individuals that keep developing the open source version, it might be forked pretty soon, so nothing of value would be lost.

As for the commercial version, that is probably gonna end like many other Oracle products, that got forgotten. I'll linger around in Oracle's inventory, but nobody will care much about it. Also, the fork might overshadow the commercial version in a couple of months, since performance tunes, are not exclusive to Oracle programmers...

Re:Oracle is doing everything they can to fuck up (2, Insightful)

Lennie (16154) | more than 3 years ago | (#34153298)

"it might be forked pretty soon, so nothing of value would be lost."

compatibility ?

Re:Oracle is doing everything they can to fuck up (4, Insightful)

jonwil (467024) | more than 3 years ago | (#34153028)

If Oracle starts locking things up in the premium version, OpenJDK will be forked (there are already some shallow forks like IceTea that take OpenJDK and replace the remaining closed-source bits with stuff from GNU Classpath etc) and the community will shift.

Its happened to OpenSolaris with the Illumos project and OpenOffice with the LibreOffice project.
No reason it cant happen with OpenJDK.

Although what might happen is that Oracle will find a way to write various APIs and licenses such that if you copy certain features from "Java Premium" you loose the patent grant given under the OpenJDK APIs.

Re:Oracle is doing everything they can to fuck up (4, Insightful)

ultranova (717540) | more than 3 years ago | (#34153166)

If Oracle starts locking things up in the premium version, OpenJDK will be forked (there are already some shallow forks like IceTea that take OpenJDK and replace the remaining closed-source bits with stuff from GNU Classpath etc) and the community will shift.

I'm sure that Oracle will find some obscure patent- or other issue to crush the free version. That is what patent law exists for, after all: to help build monopolies.

Oh well, I guess it's time to start looking for another language to start new projects in.

Re:Oracle is doing everything they can to fuck up (1)

ubersoldat2k7 (1557119) | more than 3 years ago | (#34153296)

COBOL?

Re:Oracle is doing everything they can to fuck up (3, Insightful)

sg_oneill (159032) | more than 3 years ago | (#34153036)

Oh, the dot net crowd are going to eat Oracles lunch over this. Microsofts dot net is free as the wind (well not free as in speech, but whatever) and has a lot of "enterprise-y" features.

Am I the only one seeing echos of the sad demise of Borland into irrelevance here?

Re:Oracle is doing everything they can to fuck up (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34153248)

Yes, Borland is the first that comes in mind. Well, it's time to start a new company based on ideals that permeated Borland, SUN, SGI and all other pioneers of open standards. It's sick to see what Oracle, HP, Microsoft turned into. Glad RMS started the whole free software movement, at least we have some time to build a new platform on the ashes of Java.

Re:Oracle is doing everything they can to fuck up (2, Insightful)

DrXym (126579) | more than 3 years ago | (#34153046)

People are not going to go and buy something to make Java apps work better. Perhaps companies who rely heavily on Java on the back end will, but more likely they'll just stop upgrading and switch to something else.

I'm surprised Oracle even have such a grip on Java as they have. Why doesn't someone produce a comprehensive open source test suite analogous to the real certficiation tests? Then who cares if a JVM is officially blessed Java or just some offshoot.

Re:Oracle is doing everything they can to fuck up (4, Informative)

ChunderDownunder (709234) | more than 3 years ago | (#34153078)

There is one for Classpath called Mauve [sourceware.org] . I doubt it's 100% comprehensive but it's a start.

Re:Oracle is doing everything they can to fuck up (5, Interesting)

shristov (815759) | more than 3 years ago | (#34153144)

According to Oracle (TFA), "There will always be a high-performance gratis JVM." Well, perhaps Oracle are just going to add enterprise-class features to Java - for example, the JRockit hot swapability mentioned in the article. Once you need such features, chances are you are able and willing to pay for these. The rest of the community could continue using Java for non-mission critical purposes. In time we'll see if this strategy is successful, or not. If demand for features like the ones Oracle is planning to develop is great enough surely open alternatives for some of these will pop up in foreseeable future. When/if this happens we'll hit the major issue worth discussing: how the Oracle-led and OpenJDK evolution paths will stay at least close to each other. If they diverge substantially, at least one would be doomed... if not both.

Re:Oracle is doing everything they can to fuck up (1)

AmberBlackCat (829689) | more than 3 years ago | (#34153306)

I really don't think they can make it much better than it is. So instead, they're going to take all of the minor bug fixes and optimizations that used to be in the free version, and only put them in the expensive version, leaving the free version to never see a real update again. It's not about making the expensive version better. It's about making the free version worse.

Re:Oracle is doing everything they can to fuck up (1)

ikkonoishi (674762) | more than 3 years ago | (#34153168)

I'm guessing it will be something like
iBWAHAHA = 0
do {
wait(10);
iBWAHAHA++;
} while (iBWAHAHA != 10|bPaidOurExtortion);

Re:Oracle is doing everything they can to fuck up (1)

shentino (1139071) | more than 3 years ago | (#34153194)

It could be that Oracle smelled blood and decided to go for the kill.

Interesting that soon after acquiring them, they sue Google over patents.

mmmm tie-ins (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34152886)

i do like the tie-ins ...

not

Performance-tuned Java? (4, Funny)

kaaona (252061) | more than 3 years ago | (#34152896)

Wouldn't that be like racing whales?

Re:Performance-tuned Java? (4, Interesting)

Stevecrox (962208) | more than 3 years ago | (#34152968)

Java isn't that much slower than C++ these days, if you do it right Java/C++ performance is so close as to not matter.

It's also more maintainable, has better frameworks and you don't have lots of beginner/intermediate level programmers introducing memory holes left, right and center.

Saying all that I work for a company which has invested millions into Java applications. Considering how Oracle has been acting the tech leads are pushing to moving us back to C++.

Re:Performance-tuned Java? (4, Interesting)

zlogic (892404) | more than 3 years ago | (#34153058)

Hear, hear. I've developed an image processing algorithm in Java and C++ (pretty simple: for every pixel in floating point array, compute some basic stuff, create a few classes to simplify the storage of temporary values and save the result into another array). The code was as close as possible in both languages, with no obvious screwups like memory leaks or unnecessary copying of stuff. To my surprise Java ended up being 15-20% faster than C++. And C++ is THE language for image processing, every new image processing algorithm is written in C++ (with the occasional exception of C) because of performance reasons.

Re:Performance-tuned Java? (4, Insightful)

hvdh (1447205) | more than 3 years ago | (#34153090)

Now try using SSE intrinsics. With Java, you can't do that. In C(++) you should get a nice speedup ending up several times faster than Java, unless you're bound by memory bandwidth.

Re:Performance-tuned Java? (3, Interesting)

bertok (226922) | more than 3 years ago | (#34153108)

Now try using SSE intrinsics. With Java, you can't do that. In C(++) you should get a nice speedup ending up several times faster than Java, unless you're bound by memory bandwidth.

Or use a better C++ compiler, like the Intel one, which gives a substantial speed boost with no developer effort.

There's also ready-made C++ maths libraries for pretty much everything, many with SSE optimizations.

These micro benchmarks also ignore cache thrashing, which kills Java performance for large apps.

Re:Performance-tuned Java? (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34153198)

Or you can use Mono.Simd.

Seriously, Mono these days seems like a much saner and more open framework than Java.

Re:Performance-tuned Java? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34153224)

and lots of linux users remove mono after installing linux dist

Re:Performance-tuned Java? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34153320)

and lots of linux users make sure that piece of crap never gets installed in the first place

TFTFY.

Re:Performance-tuned Java? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34153104)

The only difference is that the Java version uses 20-30% more memory and takes 2x as much time to startup in a shell script. Java only makes sense in the Enterprise where you have a JVM running already 24-7 using 16GB of memory so the added expense is irrelevant. Everywhere else python or something else light weight is much more sensical.

Re:Performance-tuned Java? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34153072)

Strange. If I write a trivial hello world in Java and in C/C++, total execution time for the C/C++ one is less a hundredth of the Java one, with its lumbering great JVM dependency to initialize. Even shell script or Perl beats Java dramatically.

With Java, you get all the runtime inconvenience of a runtime interpreter (and one heavier and slower to start than any scripting language I've ever used), and yet can still enjoy all the development-time compilation inconvenience. Plus as an added bonus, you get an environment whose integration with the unix world around it is half-hearted at best, ignoring standard platform features and conventions for uglier home-grown ones. No wonder it caught on so heavily in the enterprise world that prizes bad design and obsolete technology over all else.

  I'm praying that Oracle do us all a favor, and that their move to 'commercialize' might be the final nail in the coffin of this hideous, awful platform.

Re:Performance-tuned Java? (1)

Tridus (79566) | more than 3 years ago | (#34153126)

I keep hearing this from people, but I've never seen a fast Java app. Is it just that anything done in Java with a UI runs like a beached whale, or is it just that most people who make Java UIs are doing it wrong?

Re:Performance-tuned Java? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34153196)

Google uses Java a lot on their servers and they seem to serve pages fast enough.

Writing good UIs in Java can be done, look at Netbeans, but yes there are a lot of very bad Java coders out there...

Re:Performance-tuned Java? (3, Insightful)

devent (1627873) | more than 3 years ago | (#34153206)

Or maybe you just talking crap? Eclipse, Netbeans, Freemind, Visual Paradigm, Lotus Symphony. All have a lot of users and I'm using Eclipse all the time. For GUI apps I couldn't care less what language is used, for them are 99,99% of the time waiting for user input. In fact, sometimes Firefox is way slower then Eclipse.

What people don't realize is that only because an application is written in C or C++ you don't need the same amount of code and abstractions that you have with the JVM. You need memory management, exceptions, logging, threading, etc. You need it all in a "native" application, and the JVM is a "native" application anyway (it's written in C++). So what you have in Java is a tiny bit more abstraction, which gives you so much more productivity for the developer.

Re:Performance-tuned Java? (1)

Nursie (632944) | more than 3 years ago | (#34153216)

"if you do it right Java/C++ performance is so close as to not matter."

Then the vast majority of java apps I've encountered were done wrong!

Re:Performance-tuned Java? (1)

Cornwallis (1188489) | more than 3 years ago | (#34153008)

Very good. I was going to ask about the idea of premium JVM vs regular JVM. How could it be tuned to perform any worse than it does now?

Re:Performance-tuned Java? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34153094)

Calculate PI to twice as many digits during JVM startup? That is what it is doing for all that time isn't it?

In a way that's reassuring. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34152904)

At least Oracle is doing something very predictable with the JVM. It is way better than the state of real FUD about java one had before.

I don't think that is a smart move because one java is more marketable and a better trojan horse for oracle proprietary stuff. They could have optimized java for their solution in the background.

If I were developing java software I would not be very afraid since many have interest in keeping a FOSS version alive.
If I were starting a java project I would consider switching. But to what? .NET? even more risky than java. Dynamic languages (ruby python)? Better in many situations but dedicated servers with java seem more performant. PHP framework?
A QT net MVC framework? if there were one, I've seen only a german untranslated one.

Unable to read epSos.de (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34152922)

I probably misunderstood half of the post, because of the acronyms.

Can you Digg it? (4, Funny)

Yuioup (452151) | more than 3 years ago | (#34152926)

Java has become the Digg of languages.

Goodbye Java, we hardly knew thee...

Sun monetized Java too (1)

trifish (826353) | more than 3 years ago | (#34152934)

They bundled the spyware Google Toolbar with it (optional, but opted-in by default in the installation options).

Uh, watever, just migrate to Python, Perl6, Lua... (2, Interesting)

polemon (743631) | more than 3 years ago | (#34152938)

It's out of question, that this will kill Java as preferred language in academia and science.

But who cares, really? There are other languages, that would be a more than adequate "replacement" - if I may call it that - for Java.
So professors will have to teach Python in university, how is that something bad?

Java was chosen a few years back, because it was modern and cross platform, but that is Python as well. I also suggested using Lua in academia. For teaching programming and data structures, this is arguably one of the favorable languages.

I'm a Perl developer, so I'll wait and see what happens with Perl6...

Re:Uh, watever, just migrate to Python, Perl6, Lua (3, Interesting)

Ruke (857276) | more than 3 years ago | (#34153004)

That's a nice list of scripting languages you've got there. And don't get me wrong, scripting languages are nice. However, if speed is an issue, Lua's never going to cut it in the same way that Java does.

Re:Uh, watever, just migrate to Python, Perl6, Lua (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34153128)

This is a red herring. "Speed" has many components.

Java ma be fast on tight loops, were the JIT can optimize the crap out of the bytecode.

But start-up times are abysmal, memory behaviour isn't rosy and all that.

I'd challenge you to write a small GUI program in Tcl/Tk (or heck, in Perl/Gtk or Python/Gtk if you must, bloated as that stuff is), and then compare the start-up times.

The point with "scripting languages", as you call them, somewhat paternalizing is that you'll write the hard parts in good ol' C (or re-use some existing libraries). And if the scripting languages help you in that (Lua isn't bad, Perl and Python are rather horrible, the crown on that still is on Tcl!), you get very nice system design: well-crafted libraries in C, the "flexible glue" done in an upper, "soft" layer of scripting.

Bragging about "fast" just doesn't cut it, as YMM, as always, V.

Re:Uh, watever, just migrate to Python, Perl6, Lua (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34153274)

However, if speed is an issue, Lua's never going to cut it in the same way that Java does.

Correction:

http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/u64/benchmark.php?test=all&lang=all&d=data&calc=calculate&gpp=on&java=on&luajit=on&v8=on&lua=on&tracemonkey=on&box=1

Don't jump to conclusions (4, Informative)

jernejk (984031) | more than 3 years ago | (#34152980)

Oracle already has free and pay-for JVM: HotSpot is free, JRockit is not. I expect the free JVM will be just fine for desktops and small servers. I'd expect pay-for JVM to target enterprise solutions. And again, I expect them to ship this JVM for free with their middleware products (Weblogic etc.). But yes, this sucks for JBoss.

ME and EE (1)

leuk_he (194174) | more than 3 years ago | (#34153032)

Don't forget that there are other edition going round as well for a long time,

The Java MobileEdition (that was never free, and caused the fields of use clause in their license) and the Enterprice Edition (license?). They did use different classes, but i think the same vm(correct me if i am false). Makeing a differnce in vm is not a big step.

Re:ME and EE (1)

jernejk (984031) | more than 3 years ago | (#34153062)

I'm not sure about ME, but EE uses the same JVM, just different flavor (-server switch in JVM). EE is implemented by application servers, not JVM.

Re:Don't jump to conclusions (1)

jonwil (467024) | more than 3 years ago | (#34153162)

No reason why JBoss team couldn't put some effort into improving OpenJDK to make it faster or better performing or whatever is needed to be up there with other J2EE solutions.

We'll give you the first bytecodes for free... (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34153010)

... But after that it's going to cost you.

"With Oracle it doesn't have to make sense. It just has to make money." -James Gosling.

Wow.... (3, Insightful)

mark-t (151149) | more than 3 years ago | (#34153040)

How can the people at Oracle not see that this sort of maneuver will only _decrease_ Java's popularity?

Why did Oracle buy Sun in the first place, exactly?

Re:Wow.... (2, Insightful)

headLITE (171240) | more than 3 years ago | (#34153068)

I don't get it. JRockit was always proprietary. Why should they make it free just because they have the good sense to consolidate their JVM projects into one?

Re:Wow.... (2, Insightful)

ChunderDownunder (709234) | more than 3 years ago | (#34153180)

Agreed, provided the core JDK remains contributed to the openjdk project under the GPL, this discussion seems tainted by FUD.

JRockit historically sped up BEA's Weblogic and it sounds like nothing more than Oracle's existing offerings benefiting from a pluggable interpreter that uses JRockit. The difference being it'll re-use more of the existing VM codebase.

Hotspot itself exists in several flavours inc 'client', 'server' and the community contributed 'Shark' based on LLVM. To this Oracle will soon add JRockit in the premium binary-only release.

Re:Wow.... (2, Funny)

IllusionalForce (1830532) | more than 3 years ago | (#34153132)

Why did Oracle buy Sun in the first place, exactly?

They're clearly trying to be the biggest trolls on the entire Internet. Ever.

Its not a bad thing. (1)

drolli (522659) | more than 3 years ago | (#34153048)

I think it will be more about supported configurations etc. in that way it will be easier to swallow depending on a jvm in the core of your product. Having things like "the java update broke sth on a certain configuration" not answered by "congratulations, you problem" IS a plus.

Opensource and corporate control bad combination (3, Interesting)

Eelco (8198) | more than 3 years ago | (#34153064)

Over the years I've seen lots of companies trying to combine the open source development model with a for profit (and publicly funded) business plan. While this seemed okayish at the time, this whole Oracle debacle is clear proof that the opensource development model combined with some corporate entity controlling it is risky from an opensource perspective. Big opensource projects hopefully have learned from this and go the Debian route : turn yourself in a NGO or something and never worry about shareprice or corporate takeovers again.

It is a real shame that big projects like MySQL and OpenOffice are in this position. Maybe it was more or less opensource, it sure as hell was not independant. Sure forking works, but recreating the entire organisation (and funding) will keep you from developing quite some time.

Meanwhile, at Microsoft... (5, Insightful)

rennerik (1256370) | more than 3 years ago | (#34153136)

... Ballmer et al are wringing their hands nefariously as they see the future of C#'s marketshare increase by leaps and bounds. And that's good for Microsoft in every way, since every application written in C# instead of Java means a license for Windows is being purchased to run each copy of the software. In web apps, it's a server license; in workstation applications, it's a desktop OS license. Either way, it's a win-win for Microsoft, and a massive loss for Oracle.

Not that I mind, per se. I prefer C# in every way to Java... but from Oracle's perspective, I don't see how they see this would do anything but hurt Java and their reputation that's rather ubiquitous.

Now if only Mono would get their asses in gear and not lag so far behind .Net versions, there would actually be an open source OS alternative to running modern C# applications.

Consistent (4, Insightful)

mseeger (40923) | more than 3 years ago | (#34153250)

At least they are consistent: first they killed OpenSolaris, then they managed to split the OpenOffice community and now they will marginalize Java. I am sure they have something in store for MySQL too...

CU, Martin

Re:Consistent (1)

VendettaMF (629699) | more than 3 years ago | (#34153264)

Don't forget the killing off of multiple smaller projects and developments.

Admittedly, till now the only one I've cared about was the Sun Game Server (Project Darkstar), but I'm sure there'll be plenty more.

After all, it's not like Oracle can even produce a decent database of their own any more.

Some insight from one of the bigger customers... (5, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34153252)

Working in a senior role within a global investment bank, we buy a lot of vendor product, especially from what is now Oracle (Oracle Databases products, Weblogic products, etc.) - and if they want to charge us for the 'better' JVM going forward, no doubt we will pay for it. As will the other banks.

And Oracle knows this. It does not give a shit about small-scale Java customers, but the big corporates, like us, well, they know that even if we decided tomorrow that all new projects were to move to C#, or C++, or Objective-C, or whatever, that it would take a long time to change course, and Oracle can still bill for a long time.

One thing to remember - our bank gets and stays profitable because it pushes a lot of IT outside to third-parties (offshore developers are *much* cheaper than in London and NewYork), and they do not see any problems with getting a global price agreement with companies like Oracle and Microsoft.

Personally, I am brushing up my C++, learning Objective-C and C#, as I think the medium and smaller companies in the market will start to migrate away from Java, as the cost savings of cheaper Java developers is lost once you have pay large amounts for the Java install and licensing.

Stallman wrote the Java trap, and we all laughed. Sun is nice we thought, it'll be ok. We were all wrong. Stallman saw further, he saw that even if Sun was ok, if someone bought Sun, then things could get messy. Welcome to messy.

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