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Obama Says Offshoring Fears Are Unwarranted

samzenpus posted more than 3 years ago | from the don't-worry-citizen dept.

Businesses 763

alphadogg writes "The perception that Indian call centers and back office operations cost US jobs is an old stereotype that ignores today's reality that two-way trade between the US and India is helping create jobs and raise the standard of living in both countries, US President Barack Obama told a gathering of business executives in Mumbai on Saturday. President Obama's remarks come after some moves in the US that had Indian outsourcers worried that the US may get protectionist in the wake of job losses in the country. The state of Ohio, for example, banned earlier this year the expenditure of public funds for offshore purposes. US exports to India have quadrupled in recent years, and currently support tens of thousands of manufacturing jobs in the US, he said in a speech that was also streamed live. In addition, there are jobs supported by exports to India of agriculture products, travel and education services. President Obama, who is in India on a three-day visit, said that more than 20 deals worth about $10 billion were announced on the first day of his visit."

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763 comments

Apparently Obama knows not Grigsby & Cohen (4, Insightful)

sethstorm (512897) | more than 3 years ago | (#34155304)

The H1-b fraud is what kills it for most Americans that stumble upon offshoring's negative qualities.

You don't go to India for US jobs, especially when you're millions of US jobs in the hole.

Re:Apparently Obama knows not Grigsby & Cohen (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34155350)

I would rather import educated curry farters than uneducated wetbacks.

Re:Apparently Obama knows not Grigsby & Cohen (3, Insightful)

Ritchie70 (860516) | more than 3 years ago | (#34155524)

Indeed. I work with a lot of people who I assume are here on H1-b, with Patni claiming they can't find qualified Americans to fill these positions.

And yet the tiny US-based consulting firm we use doesn't seem to have any problem finding qualified Americans.

Of course, their people are mostly 40 - 50+ Americans, who are no doubt more expensive than 20-something Indians. But they also know what they're doing.

I'm pretty sure the billing rate to my company is about the same for both of them. So you apparently can make money pimping out Americans, too.

How about holding them to one qualifcations std? (2, Insightful)

sethstorm (512897) | more than 3 years ago | (#34155630)

The question is what happens if you had to hold the H1-b/etc. candidate to the same standards(and qualifications) as the US one? If firms like Patni can't prove that the foreign candidate can meet the same (impossible) standards, they haven't proven that a US citizen can't do it.

Of course, that might mean that the qualifications get skewed to include language proficiencies and such things that US citizens obviously can't do. That could be addressed by having them act in good-faith towards the citizen, and hire them. Then give the hired person a bit more power by allowing them to report attempts to circumvent (e.g. their projects are designed to fail).

Re:Apparently Obama knows not Grigsby & Cohen (4, Insightful)

cob666 (656740) | more than 3 years ago | (#34155586)

I agree that H-1B seems to be more of an issue than outsourcing in general. There are a LOT of US citizens that are unemployed right now and there are many firms that are still hiring H-1B visa workers. The H-1B program should be cut back in areas where the US workforce has unemployed workers.

Re:Apparently Obama knows not Grigsby & Cohen (1)

JimboFBX (1097277) | more than 3 years ago | (#34155822)

My problem is that the salaries in the H1-B notice section is 98% of the time way more than mine. The positions themselves are rarely actually internally offered. Isn't that supposed to be illegal? Why hire from outside this country then turn around and pay them more than you pay the local engineers?

Re:Apparently Obama knows not Grigsby & Cohen (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34155616)

Indeed. Time to revolt. [youtube.com]

Re:Apparently Obama knows not Grigsby & Cohen (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34155664)

Cohen, Lebowitz - hmmm. I guess Grisby is the token goyim.

Re:Apparently Obama knows not Grigsby & Cohen (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34155760)

Ignorant gayim like you shouldn't front in languages where you don't know how the plurals work.

Re:Apparently Obama knows not Grigsby & Cohen (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34155800)

Not necessarily. Face it, Jews have been a plague in every nation they've set foot in. And they're certainly no friends to whites. [timwise.org]

This Grigsby & Cohen (1)

sethstorm (512897) | more than 3 years ago | (#34155732)

For those confused:
Cohen & Grigsby [cohenlaw.com] , with offices on both sides of the Mason-Dixon line.
Youtube video [youtube.com] catching the firm in the act.

fist sport (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34155308)

frosty piss [goatse.fr]

Re:fist sport (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34155334)

1998 called. They want their abnormally stretched asshole back. I suppose if you were born in 1998, and you've never seen Goatse before, that it might be shocking to you. For those of us who aren't 12, it's just old, tired, and lame.

YHBT YHL (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34155358)

HAND.

Re:fist sport (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34155730)

It still gets me hard. I jack off to goatse once or twice a week.

Of course it ignores today's reality. (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34155312)

The reality is that those jobs are already in India and aren't coming back.

(Yes, I'm aware of the less than a handful of companies that reversed outsourcing of their call centers after constant complaints from customers about not being able to understand a word out of "Kevin" from Bangalore's mouth. Outsourcing firms are much better with the English these days.)

Re:Of course it ignores today's reality. (1)

ScrewMaster (602015) | more than 3 years ago | (#34155370)

Outsourcing firms are much better with the English these days.

But not any better with actual customer service. If I can't get my point across in about ten seconds I hang up and call back. And I'll keep doing that until I get someone that can deal with my problem. Sooner or later you'll get someone that can: oddly enough, they all seem to be from New Jersey.

Re:Of course it ignores today's reality. (5, Insightful)

Bloodwine (223097) | more than 3 years ago | (#34155390)

I am a software developer and I was hired for my current job to bring back all development from India. I was tasked with bringing all development back in-house because the offshore projects were behind schedule and suspect quality, not to mention the communication issues.

What we do now is do a combination of in-house development and rural sourcing, which is hiring U.S. developers in the midwest and midsouth in areas of lower cost of living. They are more expensive than offshore developers, but much cheaper than developers in major cities and these rural developers are in the same timezone.

I think you will see more and more rural sourcing cutting in to the offshoring of jobs. I don't think there will ever be a full reversal of offshoring jobs, just that rural sourcing will become more and more viable and desirable.

Re:Of course it ignores today's reality. (4, Interesting)

Sir_Sri (199544) | more than 3 years ago | (#34155468)

because no matter what anyone says, india is still rife with corruption and incompetence on a scale completely unheard of in the US. When you're there, immersed in it, you develop certain strategies to deal with it, but for a western company that is used to saying 'built to this spec/design, and at this time' and actually getting something close to it, either from china or other western companies, doing business in india is very frustrating. It's usually preferable to pay more, but actually get what you want, when you want it, and have some way to resolve contract disputes in a reasonable fashion.

Re:Of course it ignores today's reality. (3, Interesting)

krswan (465308) | more than 3 years ago | (#34155588)

I have a friend who just flew to India for a month to clean up an outsourcing mess for his company. Months behind schedule, 1/2 million over budget... from what he told me folks there had been promoted way above their ability level resulting in really substandard management and unsurprising results.

Re:Of course it ignores today's reality. (1)

Skapare (16644) | more than 3 years ago | (#34155750)

That's because most developers and other techies from India (and there are lot of really good ones ... any country has a certain percentage of people that could be educated at a high level ... and India does do some of that) have come to the US on H1-B (or to Europe on their similar programs). In my previous job, the guy in the cubicle next to me was top notch talent that, if nothing else does, justifies the H-1B program (I'd bring him to my new job if I could). But I've also encountered many coming here on H-1B that are shamefully untalented (one came here to be a "Unix admin" and had no idea what a shell was).

Re:Of course it ignores today's reality. (1)

Maxo-Texas (864189) | more than 3 years ago | (#34155836)

And Indians are toast compared to computerized support systems which now handle every "standard" call.

Automation and robotics are going to change everything.

Not the change we wanted (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34155346)

Voter says: not the change we wanted Mr. President.

My understanding (2, Interesting)

Oxford_Comma_Lover (1679530) | more than 3 years ago | (#34155372)

My admittedly limited understanding of this is that of course it costs us jobs, because it's very expensive to hire US employees compared to the costs of hiring employees in most other countries in the world. (The transaction costs of all of the employee rights and rules and regulations are massive. It's helpful to live in a society with some of them, but there's a massive cost. Think of how massive and absurd so much of HR is.) So between that and the standard of living, labor is cheaper elsewhere. Which means that companies make more money by producing products or services elsewhere. Which both drives prices of products and services down. This in turn raises the standard of living by making products and services less expensive. But the beneficial effects are spread across the entire economy, while the losses are concentrated and massive to the people who lose their jobs.

Economists say the widespread effects are a net gain. I don't know if I believe them--because I haven't done the math, and I've known a lot of economists who aren't very empirical.

At the same time, our gini coefficient (i.e. the divide between the rich and the poor) is increasing, which is probably a bigger problem.

Re:My understanding (1)

MyFirstNameIsPaul (1552283) | more than 3 years ago | (#34155606)

The 'outsourcing', when done on such a massive scale, is definitely detrimental. Peter Schiff and other Austrians [wikimedia.org] argue that large trade deficits for extended periods destroy economies. It's basically a direct transfer of wealth. The problem is when this is presented this to policy makers, they tend to think this means they should employ protectionist measures, but those only make the situation worse by igniting a trade war.

What our nation must come to grips with is that the world has scarce resources and we cannot attempt to put so many social guarantees into law, especially federal law, without eventually suffering economic catastrophe.

Re:My understanding (1)

Third Position (1725934) | more than 3 years ago | (#34155728)

Well, the economists are right - the widespread effects are a net gain. The problem is that economics doesn't care where or who benefits from the gains. Free trade certainly increases the net amount of wealth in the world - consider it wasn't 50 years ago that India and China suffered from massive famines - but wealth created in India and China isn't doing your average Westerner much good. The concept of "national interest" has no meaning in economics.

The problem of the divide between rich and poor is irrelevant, in my book. Bill Gates may be getting richer faster than I am, but if I'm still getting richer, why should I care? Would I be any richer if Bill Gates didn't get rich? Actually, Bill Gates getting rich was to my benefit - in the process of doing so, he expanded a market that caused my skills to be more valuable. Can't complain about that!

As an Ohioan, I'm proud the state banned it (3, Interesting)

sethstorm (512897) | more than 3 years ago | (#34155374)

The state of Ohio, for example, banned earlier this year the expenditure of public funds for offshore purposes.

One of the many things that was possible with Governor Strickland, and not Head Banker-elect Kasich.

The only shame is that Kasich got elected as Head Banker, instead of the state retaining Governor Strickland. Now we get a Wall Street banker that compares himself to an East Coast thug. By how he's talking to the media, he's not going to step aside; the Head Banker's simply going to exact revenge.

Re:As an Ohioan, I'm proud the state banned it (4, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34155442)

It's ironic that people like you voice dissent at the Indian off shoring situation when you had no problem off shoring our manufacturing jobs to China by lining up at Walmart's feeding trough.

Re:As an Ohioan, I'm proud the state banned it (3, Interesting)

sethstorm (512897) | more than 3 years ago | (#34155488)

It's ironic that people like you voice dissent at the Indian off shoring situation when you had no problem off shoring our manufacturing jobs to China by lining up at Walmart's feeding trough.

Go to Northeast Ohio, and you'll find out how job losses to foreign countries are handled.

Actually, I haven't a single transaction at that store post-NAFTA. Walking in Wal-Mart is like walking in a foreign land.

Re:As an Ohioan, I'm proud the state banned it (1)

ScrewMaster (602015) | more than 3 years ago | (#34155570)

It's ironic that people like you voice dissent at the Indian off shoring situation when you had no problem off shoring our manufacturing jobs to China by lining up at Walmart's feeding trough.

Go to Northeast Ohio, and you'll find out how job losses to foreign countries are handled.

Actually, I haven't a single transaction at that store post-NAFTA. Walking in Wal-Mart is like walking in a foreign land.

Yes. A specific foreign land at this point. Name starts with a "C".

Parent != Flamebait/Troll (1)

edgedmurasame (633861) | more than 3 years ago | (#34155472)

The truth cuts close for Kasich supporters. Someone delivers a support for the facts and y'all modbomb them.

Re:As an Ohioan, I'm proud the state banned it (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34155598)

The state of Ohio, for example, banned earlier this year the expenditure of public funds for offshore purposes.

One of the many things that was possible with Governor Strickland, and not Head Banker-elect Kasich.

The only shame is that Kasich got elected as Head Banker, instead of the state retaining Governor Strickland. Now we get a Wall Street banker that compares himself to an East Coast thug. By how he's talking to the media, he's not going to step aside; the Head Banker's simply going to exact revenge.

Oh, yeah, that'll work.

When someone gets $X of "public funding", it's not hard to use it for any purpose you want.

The concept that is outside your abiilty to understand is fungible [reference.com] .

Here's todays reality: (4, Informative)

larry bagina (561269) | more than 3 years ago | (#34155386)

Harley Davidson is building an assembly plant [cnn.com] in India to assemble American parts. Why not ship the entire (pre-built) motorcycle to India? Well, because India has tariffs that essentially double the price

Re:Here's todays reality: (4, Insightful)

DCstewieG (824956) | more than 3 years ago | (#34155662)

And Toyota and Honda assemble cars in the U.S. Sometimes you just gotta do stuff locally.

Re:Here's todays reality: (0, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34155798)

And Toyota and Honda assemble cars in the U.S. Sometimes you just gotta do stuff locally.

And other times it's purely to increase PR.

I think he is mostly right (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34155388)

But I fear the populism in the tea party and the progressives is more in alignment for more economic nationality.

And I also believe that no legislation will stop the world from turning. The developing world will keep developing and net flows of capital and standards of living are going to flow from more developed to less developed.

We can make ourselves leaner and meaner on the business regs and the spending front, but instead we will build more more walls.

These plans will fail.

Re:I think he is mostly right (5, Insightful)

mrnobo1024 (464702) | more than 3 years ago | (#34155430)

The developing world will keep developing and net flows of capital and standards of living are going to flow from more developed to less developed.

If I live in a more developed country, why the fuck should I tolerate this? Being a sovereign nation means having the ability to regulate trade up to and including stopping it completely. Since, as you freely admit, foreign trade is utterly screwing us over, that sounds like a pretty good idea right now.

Re:I think he is mostly right (1)

krypticmind (1369357) | more than 3 years ago | (#34155660)

So thought Kim Jong-il and Castro, who closed their countries to foreign trade and have essentially brought the dark ages to their nations. Please stay away from politics, before the Tea Party gets elected and we op in for a world of hurt.

Re:I think he is mostly right (1)

Jedi Alec (258881) | more than 3 years ago | (#34155670)

You're absolutely right, as a sovereign nation you are under no obligation whatsoever to tolerate this, well, except for all the treaties of course.

Then again, if you don't, there's really no reason why all the other sovereign nations would want to do business with you, and you can just rot away on your island. Deal?

So yes, you have every right to be a selfish jackass, and we have every right to call you out on it.

Re:I think he is mostly right (5, Insightful)

Kjella (173770) | more than 3 years ago | (#34155828)

The rest of the world is evolving rapidly into highly educated, highly industrialized, highly technological countries that resemble the west - in certain parts and certain ways, anyway. The more similar their productivity is, the more similar standards of living they can demand but for a long time a series of favorable conditions and network effects have kept the US in a solid lead. The balance is shifting, but to say that it actually flows from one country to the other is fairly misleading. You could halt trade but it wouldn't halt these countries from modernizing, and they would also retaliate.

The US currently has a very negative trade balance, meaning it imports far more than it exports. If it were to close the borders, the US would hurt the most. Medium to long term that could mean opportunity for domestic industry, but the short term would be a substantial drop in the standard of living as many goods become expensive or even unavailable. There was a time when a trade boycott with the US would be dire but today if you can maintain trade with the EU, Japan, China, India, Taiwan, Russia and so on most countries would do fine. Alternate suppliers of almost everything now exist outside the US.

In short, the US is no longer in a position where they would have anything to gain from going protectionist. They'd be their own little isolated market of 300 million people while the world market - even subtracting the billions that are too poor to really participate - is much larger and would simply outpace the US. That's the nastier parts of the free market, once you've let it loose you might in the end become the victim of it, having to adjust your wages and standard of living to fight for jobs just like everyone else. But if there's one country that has no right to complain, it would be the US...

yeah right (5, Insightful)

bartok (111886) | more than 3 years ago | (#34155392)

"Create job abd raise the standard of living in both countries".

This statement is only true if you count the rich getting richer in the US. I fail to see how losing your middle class income job to outsourcing raises your stadard of living.

Re:yeah right (3, Insightful)

krypticmind (1369357) | more than 3 years ago | (#34155544)

Commodity jobs are being exported, the kind that you rather have someone else do anyway, as the profit margin of doing it at home is very low and you end up with subsidized industries for that exact reason (/me waves at the corn/christian belt and General Motors) The fact that alot of uneducated electorate seems to neglect is that economics in the most developed and rich country on the planet is something way beyond what their American Idol brains can fathom. The only source of information for the above mentioned "middle" class is Murdoch's Newscorp, but thats a different story. Back to the point, if we were losing so many jobs, why is it that at economic peaks we always end up with the same 4% unemployment rate, despite the last ten years being the golden age of outsource? The reality is that today's economy is far more dynamic and outsourcing something that produces little profit is the best way to keep an economy competitive (again, look at the US car industry and, say, Japanese/German cars) http://www.google.com/publicdata?ds=usunemployment&met=unemployment_rate&tdim=true&dl=en&hl=en&q=unemployment+percentage [google.com]

Re:yeah right (2, Interesting)

Skapare (16644) | more than 3 years ago | (#34155816)

The correct figured to determine overall national prosperity is to take the median income (not the average), and divide that by the Gini coefficient [wikipedia.org] .

I agree, it does ignore today's reality (1)

ElephanteEd (1835146) | more than 3 years ago | (#34155394)

This is why the tax breaks given to companies who shift US jobs overseas needs to go. This plus NAFTA is continuing to destroy whatever manufacturing the US has left inside its borders.

Re:I agree, it does ignore today's reality (1)

krypticmind (1369357) | more than 3 years ago | (#34155624)

Manufacturing in a modern economy such as the US is something doomed. Not because we cant make it well, but because workers cost so damn much! Yep, would you still be all "our jobs" if your cost 2x as much? Yep, that also means less money for other things. Let me leave you with something: Would you be sorry for the Whale Oilers if this was 1890-1910 and essentially every one of them lost their jobs? There is no more whale oil, the whole industry had become obsolete because of the energy-denser crude, and killing whales to power anything sounds like a shitty deal to me. Yet, them losing their jobs had a negligible impact on the 100 years of extremely rapid development as a result of that industry tech switch. Industries die, jobs become obsolete, and thats just the nature of technologic advance. The sooner it sinks into the populous, the sooner we can start looking into more important things than the Tea Party and actually make some headway.

Re:I agree, it does ignore today's reality (1)

DCstewieG (824956) | more than 3 years ago | (#34155690)

The problem is it isn't just manufacturers looking for cheaper labor and then shipping their product right back to us. It's companies exporting to other countries who need a local presence.

Obama is not the Great Leader that many wish him (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34155416)

Several weeks ago I remember hearing a negro professor on the radio mention that even the black community recognized he was not dramatically different from other politicians on issues of civil rights and bringing our jobs home. Too many put their hope and faith in a man that didn't deserve it.

Re:Obama is not the Great Leader that many wish hi (1, Interesting)

ScrewMaster (602015) | more than 3 years ago | (#34155536)

Several weeks ago I remember hearing a negro professor on the radio mention that even the black community recognized he was not dramatically different from other politicians on issues of civil rights and bringing our jobs home. Too many put their hope and faith in a man that didn't deserve it.

When Obama got elected, I remember speaking about it to a friend of mine who emigrated to Europe some years ago. People there were ecstatic about Obama being our new President-elect. I asked him why. "Is it because Obama is going to make a wonderful President in their view?" His answer? "No. It's because he isn't George Bush." They were far more rational in their appraisal of Obama than we were.

Obama is an ex-Chicago politician, with all that that implies to anyone who knows that fine city. Expecting him to be some kind of messiah, some kind of prophet ringing in a new era of prosperity for America was just ignorant. He is what he is, another tax-and-spend Democrat with delusions of grandeur like all the rest of the Washington crowd, and we're getting precisely the leadership for which we cast our votes. I did my research, and had a pretty good idea how he was going to turn out, and alas, I was not wrong. That many refused to exercise their power wisely, especially in the Internet Age where everything about everyone is online for the taking, and had literally deluded themselves into believing otherwise in no way affects who and what the man represents.

Re: The Daley System does not scale up (1)

sethstorm (512897) | more than 3 years ago | (#34155702)

The first thing I thought of Obama's election is that he would go the Daley path. So far, he has not disappointed me; this trip to Asia is only Obama's Meigs Field [wikipedia.org] . The only goal is that he distances himself from his earlier actions and appeases the current group in power.

Re:Obama is not the Great Leader that many wish hi (4, Insightful)

TheNucleon (865817) | more than 3 years ago | (#34155746)

You lost me at "tax and spend". We should get past bumper-sticker assertions, especially when they're not even right. I guess "tax less but spend more" isn't as catchy, but it seems to work for the Republicans.

Re:Obama is not the Great Leader that many wish hi (1)

ScrewMaster (602015) | more than 3 years ago | (#34155808)

You lost me at "tax and spend". We should get past bumper-sticker assertions, especially when they're not even right. I guess "tax less but spend more" isn't as catchy, but it seems to work for the Republicans.

Fine. How about "borrow and spend"? Because that's what he's doing. Is that an improvement over "tax and spend"? The reality is he's doing both.

Re:Obama is not the Great Leader that many wish hi (1)

houghi (78078) | more than 3 years ago | (#34155758)

Obama is an ex-Chicago politician,

Obama is a politician.That should have been enough. Unfortunately with a two party system all you can do is vote for the lesser of two evils.

What will happen is that one party tries to get out of the financial crisis. The only way to do that is by raising taxes. The other party will then gain votes by blaming the other party and start spending money like crazy. This will lead the other party to blame the other party and gain votes and do stupid things.

Just blame the other party and you will be elected every so often.

We live in a world of soundbites and voting is done by emotion. In Belgium with elections, there always are one or two websites where you can do some tests to see what party fits closest to your ideas. Yet when I ask my friends what the outcome will be the party they will vote for, the answer is always no. This because they are voting with emotion, not reasoning. http://www.euprofiler.eu/ [euprofiler.eu] as an example and in English

And people wonder why shit happens in politics.

Re:Obama is not the Great Leader that many wish hi (1)

ScrewMaster (602015) | more than 3 years ago | (#34155820)

Obama is an ex-Chicago politician, Obama is a politician.

I put it that way for a reason, because anyone with half a brain would have taken him down a few notches in their estimation simply because of his background.

Re:Obama is not the Great Leader that many wish hi (1)

istartedi (132515) | more than 3 years ago | (#34155626)

We were hoping for a Theodore Roosevelt. We got a Bush with a brain and a tan.

To flesh that out--I think a TR is exactly what we needed. That's somebody who isn't afraid to go against the party and prevailing wisdom among the elites. That would NOT be somebody who wants "card check" to expand union power. It'd be somebody who is able to use his bully pulpit to push for a restoration of a progressive tax structure that would truly benefit the working class, and not just the ones lucky enough to have a cushy union job.

Instead, he pushed card-check which is DOA with Republicans in Congress, and he will probably be forced to compromise on the Bush tax cuts.

It's pretty ironic that the "populist" tea party movement probably has a lot of people who would be well served by the kind of Progressive movement that existed 100 years ago. Instead, they're voting for more Corporatism.

Re:Obama is not the Great Leader that many wish hi (1)

ScrewMaster (602015) | more than 3 years ago | (#34155694)

Several weeks ago I remember hearing a negro professor on the radio mention that even the black community recognized he was not dramatically different from other politicians on issues of civil rights and bringing our jobs home. Too many put their hope and faith in a man that didn't deserve it.

How is this off-topic? The discussion is about President Obama and his policies.

Outsourcing India (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34155418)

My company has been outsourcing jobs in India to East Asia. I doubt it is as romantic as the movie Outsourced [imdb.com]

Ten Billion? (-1, Troll)

ScrewMaster (602015) | more than 3 years ago | (#34155434)

President Obama, who is in India on a three-day visit, said that more than 20 deals worth about $10 billion were announced on the first day of his visit.

Worth ten billion dollars to whom, Mr. President. Is that ten billion leaving the U.S., never to been seen again, or are we getting something worthwhile in return? And no, transferring wealth, knowledge, and manufacturing capability from the United States to other countries, which serves as a particularly expensive and short-sighted form of foreign aid, simply does not count. Nor does the wholesale firing and replacement of large sectors of the U.S. workforce. So ... what precisely are you doing to advance our interests, Mr. President! That's what we need to know, since it's what we pay you to do.

What? What's that you say? I may not ask those questions?

Re:Ten Billion? (5, Informative)

evolve75 (759569) | more than 3 years ago | (#34155554)

That is $ 10 Billion coming in to the US - by exporting products (33 planes from Boeing, 414 Jet Engines from GE, etc.) to India. RTFA ... oh, wait, this is Slashdot.

Re:Ten Billion? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34155560)

Worth ten billion dollars to whom, Mr. President. Is that ten billion leaving the U.S., never to been seen again, or are we getting something worthwhile in return?
[...]
What? What's that you say? I may not ask those questions?

Reading comprehension fail.

The 10 billion is the money is coming from India to the US. How it gets distributed within the US depends on how you vote in elections.

Re:Ten Billion? (0, Offtopic)

ScrewMaster (602015) | more than 3 years ago | (#34155790)

Worth ten billion dollars to whom, Mr. President. Is that ten billion leaving the U.S., never to been seen again, or are we getting something worthwhile in return? [...] What? What's that you say? I may not ask those questions?

Reading comprehension fail.

The 10 billion is the money is coming from India to the US. How it gets distributed within the US depends on how you vote in elections.

Not at all. You can't be accused of not comprehending that which you didn't read in the first place. As I explained to jo_ham, I prefer to go on a good rant first. That gives all of you a chance to feel haughty and superior, leaving you thoroughly disarmed before I eviscerate you with my sharp logic and rapier wit.

Re:Ten Billion? (4, Informative)

jo_ham (604554) | more than 3 years ago | (#34155642)

Sure you can ask those questions. You'll just look stupid, because the answers are in the fucking article.

Re:Ten Billion? (-1, Troll)

ScrewMaster (602015) | more than 3 years ago | (#34155766)

Sure you can ask those questions. You'll just look stupid, because the answers are in the fucking article.

Why would I want to to read the article? It's much more fun to just go on a rant. That's a Slashdot privilege which I happen to enjoy, and since I'm not particularly concerned about "looking stupid" I will continue to enjoy it. Besides, nobody says you have to read anything I write.

And I was really talking about Obama's policies in general, not just these specific deals.

Re:Ten Billion? (1)

drgregoryhouse (1909704) | more than 3 years ago | (#34155830)

This is what you get paying another president to spend 7 trillion on an unnecessary war.

Re:Ten Billion? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34155834)

Is that ten billion leaving the U.S., never to been seen again, or are we getting something worthwhile in return?

Nope, you were talking about specifics. Nice try though!

Automation versus offshoring (1)

Twinbee (767046) | more than 3 years ago | (#34155446)

Neah, offshoring is terrible obviously. And in even worse will be when computers do all of our menial and boring tasks using simple AI.

Imagine that; all those jobs will be done for free, and thus we'll lose even more jobs! I can't imagine how bad a world would be where every unwanted job is left to robots and computers!

Re:Automation versus offshoring (1)

TheLink (130905) | more than 3 years ago | (#34155620)

Those evil European "socialist" countries actually have a better migration path for that than the US.

Logically if there is a future when robots do all our jobs, you'd be better off in the countries which treat their jobless well.

Re:Automation versus offshoring (3, Funny)

0123456 (636235) | more than 3 years ago | (#34155704)

Logically if there is a future when robots do all our jobs, you'd be better off in the countries which treat their jobless well.

How long do you think the robots will 'treat their jobless well'?

Re:Automation versus offshoring (1)

Twinbee (767046) | more than 3 years ago | (#34155736)

I would agree. I think the current democratic/capitalist system works well now to *get* to that point, but when we're there, then at least a more substantial 'social security' type system would be beneficial to the mass majority of people who don't work.

He's absolutely correct (2, Informative)

Nerdfest (867930) | more than 3 years ago | (#34155456)

His job will not likely be outsourced to India for quite some time.

Re:He's absolutely correct (1)

sethstorm (512897) | more than 3 years ago | (#34155540)

The problem is that his job can't be offshored, but the political interests have been offshored.

This shows just how out of touch Obama is (0)

onyxruby (118189) | more than 3 years ago | (#34155474)

The fact that Obama thinks that millions of previously American jobs that have been outsourced to India is somehow good shows just how out of touch Obama is with regular America. America needs jobs, and those jobs used to provide careers to Americans. What happened to the Democrat party defending American jobs?

Mr Obama, please get back in tough with the needs to of the American people. Didn't your parties recent thrashing in the election send a message that you need to listen to?

Re:This shows just how out of touch Obama is (1)

betterunixthanunix (980855) | more than 3 years ago | (#34155558)

What happened to the Democrat party defending American jobs?

The past 40 years happened. The Democrats have become tools of corporations, just like the Republicans, and so the interests of the majority of Americans who are not rich investors have fallen by the wayside.

Re:This shows just how out of touch Obama is (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34155562)

I have never voted anything other than Democrat, but I can't stand Obama,

That fucker is a complete sell-out.

Sellout to Wall Street.
Sellout on human rights and gitmo.
Sellout on health care.
Sellout on gay rights.
Sellout on HAMP.

Sellout on offshoring.

What a tone deaf mother fucking sell out. And fuck the Duncan Blacks and Daily Kos's and all the elite blogosphere wankers that cover that fucker. /triple checks posts to make sure it's Anonymous Coward.

IBM & company (5, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34155486)

Obama should gather a little bit of data on the tech sector. IBM alone has hired 80,000 people in India in the last 8 years. Meanwhile, my colleagues and I have not had raises in the last 5 years. We aren't a group of chump manufacturing people putting tops on bottoms either. We develop a lot of the firmware in the high end systems, and do high level hardware design. We've been told no back fills in the US. The only new people are in cheaper regions.

I'm sure our friends at HP, Oracle, Dell, etc are up to the same nonsense.

Re:IBM & company (1)

etymxris (121288) | more than 3 years ago | (#34155726)

The Fed's artificial inflation of the dollar is going to bring a lot of jobs back to the US. Most people won't want these jobs, but they'll have to swallow their pride if they want employment.

Goods and commodities will become more expensive, especially oil. Our standard of living will go down, but we'll have jobs. Welcome to the graceful collapse of yet another empire.

Re:IBM & company (1)

tokul (682258) | more than 3 years ago | (#34155752)

IBM alone has hired 80,000 people in India in the last 8 years. Meanwhile, my colleagues and I have not had raises in the last 5 years.

Hired for how long? I suspect that most of employees left after working for several months in order to get a raise in other Indian company.

Re:IBM & company (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34155782)

It isn't just computer oriented companies that are doing this. Telecommunications outsources heavily as well. The company I work for will only hire contractors locally anymore, if hiring anyone locally at all as it's VERY difficult to get approved. In fact, thanks to India's economy blossoming thanks to American businesses feeding cash into the country, hiring workers there is becoming more expensive and our company is looking to other countries.

The sad thing is, I hear a lot of stories at work where American developers and engineers spend all of their time undoing the work the Indian workers performed because they got the requirements wrong, and then redoing the work correctly. They do this with less than half of the workers that are performing the incorrect work to begin with.

I've always had the mindset that I prefer to do something right the first time because if I screw it up, I have to perform twice the work to get the job done. If we hire 3 or 4 quality developers or engineers locally, it's probably cost about the same as 10 to 15 outsourced workers and about the same amount of work would be done. Instead, we're looking at a maximum of 2 workers local to 20 workers outsourced and running in circles to get things done and push out shitty products.

Referring to the summary above, there's something Obama misses. If Americans aren't being hired and paid, then Americans aren't consuming. In order to get consumer spending up, you have to get them working, get them income. Outsourcing discourages hiring locally and therefor discourages local consumer spending. How can you kick start a dying economy if you think there's nothing wrong with this?

And MY Personal Costs? (3, Insightful)

mim (535591) | more than 3 years ago | (#34155498)

Is President Obama taking into account MY personal costs when I require internet tech support and have to use my cell phone minutes? Not to mention the difficulties of the language barrier when you can hardly understand what they're saying due to their thick accents that further complicates matters and takes up yet more of my valuable time? Does he understand that they can hardly understand me either, so we go back & forth repeating ourselves trying to resolve the issue, taking up yet more time and costing ME more money?? I think not.

Historic reality (4, Insightful)

hackingbear (988354) | more than 3 years ago | (#34155504)

What he said about India could have well applied to China more, as the US exports more products to China than to India. But he, and the other politicians, did not say the same things to China. The only reason being that China is now the main competitor and so we have to demonize it and please countries like India and Vietnam, exactly like how we pleased China 30 years ago -- opened up our market without asked for the equivalent level of opening up, established relation with Mao's regime which was a million times more suppressive than the current one, and kicked out Taiwan from th UN, in order to fight against the then biggest competitor -- the Soviet Union. The problem with this strategy is that while we may constraint one competitor, we are creating another new major one for ourselves down the road. And we the common people pay the costs. History repeats itself again and again.

Meet the New Boss. . . (1, Flamebait)

Fantastic Lad (198284) | more than 3 years ago | (#34155508)

Goddammit! We got fooled again!

I think this is just a ripening up of the American public for Palin and the Tea-Nazis to come crash the party in two years time. It's all just part of the show and Obama is just the latest bit-part player.

-FL

India Trade Deficit: $4-12BILLION Annually (5, Insightful)

Doc Ruby (173196) | more than 3 years ago | (#34155566)

The US trade deficit with India [census.gov] is already over $7B this year through August; heading to top $10B this year. That will be among the highest annual deficits, though Bush/Cheney got deficits as high as $12B+. August 2009 saw the only monthly trade surplus with India in well over 20 years, $34 million; the rest of the months total to something like a quarter $TRILLION more spent on India than India spent on the US. It's obvious that the parallel growth in the US and India leaves the US with less money from our jobs and more money in India for its jobs.

Of course, the corporate profits on all those jobs are not counted in trade stats. The real competition isn't between US labor vs Indian labor. It's between labor in either country, and the corporate owners who run the system, keeping the profits among themselves and their banker partners.

Outsourcing just sucks (5, Informative)

dave562 (969951) | more than 3 years ago | (#34155578)

It is getting to the point where outsourcing will start costing US companies money. In my current employment situation, we outsource the management of the network infrastructure to AT&T. They manage the firewalls, load balancers and switches. However everything is managed from Singapore. Whenever I need to discuss network design decisions or changes with a real Cisco certified engineer, I have to do it on Singapore time. They don't have any engineers in America anymore. All of their project managers seem to be in India. They must be a getting a great discount, because my PM doesn't know jack. Every time I need a question answered, he has to ask someone else.

Anyone who has dealt with AT&T knows that getting change orders processed is a complete PITA. When you add a 12 hour time difference on top of it, it is amazing that anything gets done at all.

Our solution is that we are going to hire a network engineer here in America. AT&T can bugger off. We are an American company. We are hosting our servers in an American data center on US soil. Our vendor should have people who can work with us during our regular business hours. I'm all for having people on the other side of the world who can do things during a midnight (local time) maintenance window. I'm not all for having to wait until 9pm to have a conference call to discuss things. I'm even more put off by dealing with people who barely speak my language and don't have the technical competence to keep up.

Re:Outsourcing just sucks (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34155652)

It's a disaster, it's always been a disaster. Managers get their bonus based on cost savings regardless of how much it wrecks their company in the mid-long term.

Obama is a bald faced liar (-1, Troll)

RocketRabbit (830691) | more than 3 years ago | (#34155618)

This statement is to be expected from a serial liar like Soetoro. The fact is that he went over there to try to sell our bonds, and the Indians wanted more jobs in return. The real magic is that, while Barry Hussein Soetoro Obama says one thing and does another, many people are still caught in his specially crafted, Kenya-Indonesian magic spell of hope and change. I for one hope his particular brand of change will stop fucking over the collective asses of America soon.

I never actually expected a serial liar to suddenly tell the truth, but I thought he would be smarter than this. The labor unions are his best little ass-kissing buddies and I bet they feel like they were raped after his announcement. Of course this is a good thing, I am sick of supporting those vampirers with endless bridge to nowhere infrastructure giveaways.

Outside the major cities, our freeways are running at something like 3% capacity. Better build more roads!

Oh I forgot, we still need to blame Bush for everything, and praise Soetorobama for getting "conversations" started with his massive failures, every one of which can be blamed on Bush and the deniers. Excuse me while I go sing the Obama song they taught to the elementary school kids here.

Re:Obama is a bald faced liar (1)

Mongoose Disciple (722373) | more than 3 years ago | (#34155654)

Way to Poe's Law the thread. :(

What planet is this man from??? (1)

BudAaron (1231468) | more than 3 years ago | (#34155628)

I once charged over $ 100 an hour. I'm now lucky if I get a job for $10 an hour. Go figure!

25% US Unemployment (4, Informative)

beaker8000 (1815376) | more than 3 years ago | (#34155640)

Yes, thats the actual US unemployment rate when you take into account those who gave up looking. And in return for outsourcing jobs he cites $10B in export deals. Really? That's 1/8 of AAPL's yearly revenue. That's 1/60 of what the Fed just printed to buy Treasury bonds.

Today's reality is (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34155666)

Today's reality is you have a government that wants to pile on endless and needless regulations which raises the cost of business here in America and a Federal Reserve that will debase the US dollar until it's worthless effectively creating a tax on everyone's money not just their income. Not only that but you want to raise taxes on people in the upper brackets who create jobs either as upper management or by owning a business themselves and a President who wants to bash business every chance he gets. What kind of business would want to create jobs here in America in this type of environment?

Sure some outsourcing where people need to talk to each other has come back, but anything else hasn't.

Aren't we forgetting about bad service? (1)

Coldeagle (624205) | more than 3 years ago | (#34155668)

You know what, I have actually worked VERY extensively with outsourced call centers. You know it's not the fact that you can pay $2 per call. That's not really the issue as I see it, because you know what folks? You get what you pay for! The cultural differences between the US and India and the Philippians is just to marked. If the folks can't work through something on a script, then they're typically screwed. Why is this? Because their culture is different. I used to work as Escalation for these folks and when I would ask some basic questions as to what the problem was, they would just say yes to everything! I would find that the problem they had missed was basic because they don't think like a troubleshooter. They have preconceived notions and would take 8+ hours on the phone with these customers and end up not helping them. I have also run into this behavior as well. I'm a technical guy. When I have to call into technical support, I do so because there's a problem that I have diagnosed and can't move forward without them doing something. I go over the exact steps that I have done to diagnose the problem, and then they have me do silly shit (For example...my power supply is bad, it's not charging nor providing power to my laptop, swap the power supply out and all is good...guy in tech support had me take my battery out and hold down the power button...REALLY!?!).

Anyways, that's my rant about outsourced call centers. Their troubleshooting skills are useless. I will say this however, our European call centers were outstanding. Is this because their culture is similar to the one found in the US? Probably. It might be education, but from what I'm led to understand most of the folks who work at call centers in India and the Philippians are college grads, and they aren't dumb. I think their cultures just don't have them question authority enough!

Obama's rhetoric (1)

FudRucker (866063) | more than 3 years ago | (#34155682)

[citation needed]

Lowest bidder (1)

NapalmV (1934294) | more than 3 years ago | (#34155696)

This is the "lowest bidder" theory applied globally. If it so good as they say would Obama and the government please move into facilities/housing determined by "lowest bid" instead of spending so much money on the White House etc. I'm sure they could find a better deal in Detroit or somewhere.

Obama might be pulling an Arafat (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34155698)

You know, Arafat would say one thing in English, and then another in Arabic.

The linked article quotes him speaking against outsourcing, and then he goes to India and speaks favorably of it. He's not using a different language; but it's the same idea.

Re:Obama might be pulling an Arafat (5, Funny)

0123456 (636235) | more than 3 years ago | (#34155806)

You know, Arafat would say one thing in English, and then
another in Arabic.

The linked article quotes him speaking against outsourcing,
and then he goes to India and speaks favorably of it. He's not
using a different language; but it's the same idea.

I believe we have a word for this in English: it's called 'lying'.

Larry Summers' legacy (2, Informative)

dkleinsc (563838) | more than 3 years ago | (#34155712)

The primary source of this entire argument that outsourcing everything to India or China is good for America is Larry Summers. Mr Summers served as Treasury Secretary under Bill Clinton, where he orchestrated NAFTA and the continued opening of the US market to China with the exact same arguments as now. During the Bush years, he served as the president of Harvard, where he supervised a massive drop in the endowment and massive annoyance to everybody who had to work with him, until he was booted out over some foolish remarks about the capabilities of women in science. And more recently under Obama, he served as the chair of the Council of Economic Advisers, which I'm positive is where Obama got the ideas that he's spewing here.

He's been wrong throughout his entire career, but because his mistakes make a small group of people very rich, he manages to get more and more power. Compare that to someone like Paul Krugman, who regularly gets his forecasts correct but is ignored because his policy responses would involve giving ordinary people a helping hand.

Why do Americans think (4, Interesting)

drgregoryhouse (1909704) | more than 3 years ago | (#34155738)

they deserve jobs India can do for a cheaper price?

BULLSHIT. (1, Flamebait)

crhylove (205956) | more than 3 years ago | (#34155774)

I work in tech support and I'm on the phone to India ALL DAY. Obama is another corporate whore, no different than all the other presidents since they shot JFK in the face. He's better than Bush in exactly one way: He can speak English. Too bad it's all lies. They share that trait.

Hey everybody (1)

mutrax (1049904) | more than 3 years ago | (#34155792)

thet t'k rrr jeeebs

I call bullshit (1)

shoehornjob (1632387) | more than 3 years ago | (#34155812)

He's just kissing ass because we supported Pakistan (which used to be part of India)in the so called "war on terror" instead of India. Why is it whenever we have a war the only people who win are the defense contractors? So now that we have not realized the objective we hoped to achieve by pumping money into Pakistan and propping up a dictator we are now trying to make nice with the country we pissed off in the process. I think the Indian army was better organized to help us in this "war" and had more experience to help us in Afghanistan when we needed them.

I fail to see how it can be good (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34155826)

I had to compete to get my job v an outsourced person in some far flung land. I also had to take an 8K salary drop.

It is quite bad when you consider these companies made tens of billions a year in revenue.

Do they not realise that if I don't have a job, I am not going to be buying products? If I am not buying products, the person in the shop won't get paid and the chain carries on. Laws should be introduced to outright ban offshoring.

That and the fact everyone hates calling off shore tech people. I had to ring about a faulty cable modem. The guys english was so appalling I couldn't understand anything at all. Got even worse when I mentioned I don't run Windows. Pure panic moment for a certain Indian

Call me a racist, whatever, but this is unsustainable and is down to pure greed so some fatcat can get an extra 3 percent per product. It is directly taking money out of everyones pocket to pay some indian to do our job.

Lastly, we don't seem to make anything these days except TV shows (cartoons farmed out to Vietnam to be created) and crap like X factor etc. IP is the oil of the 21st century but the worm will turn, and it will be a world of hate.

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