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Apache Declares War On Oracle Over Java

CmdrTaco posted more than 3 years ago | from the pew-pew-pew dept.

IBM 428

jfruhlinger writes "The Apache Software Foundation, feeling increasingly marginalized as Oracle asserts its control over the Java platform, is fighting back, trying to rally fellow members of the Java Community Process to block the next version of the language if Oracle doesn't make it available under an open license amenable to Apache. Last month's Oracle-IBM pact was a blow against the ASF, which had worked with IBM in the past, but it appears that Apache isn't giving up the fight."

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428 comments

Finally (5, Funny)

Yvan256 (722131) | more than 3 years ago | (#34179170)

Now we know who launched that missile [slashdot.org]!

Re:Finally (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34179208)

Was it a tomahawk?

The Oracle at Delphi, Indigenous Tribes, Coffee (5, Funny)

Oxford_Comma_Lover (1679530) | more than 3 years ago | (#34179296)

> Apache Declares War On Oracle Over Java

Sometimes it seems like the world hasn't changed much in the last two thousand years.

Re:The Oracle at Delphi, Indigenous Tribe, Islands (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34179428)

FTFY.

The Apache Indian in North America would go to war with the Athenian Oracle at Delphi over the island of Java in the South Pacific.

Re:The Oracle at Delphi, Indigenous Tribe, Islands (4, Funny)

H0p313ss (811249) | more than 3 years ago | (#34180000)

The Apache Indian in North America would go to war with the Athenian Oracle at Delphi over the island of Java in the South Pacific.

Sounds like a game of FreeCiv

Re:The Oracle at Delphi, Indigenous Tribes, Coffee (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34179502)

> Apache Declares War On Oracle Over Java

Sometimes it seems like the world hasn't changed much in the last two thousand years.

LOL. Good point.

Re:The Oracle at Delphi, Indigenous Tribes, Coffee (2, Insightful)

Yvan256 (722131) | more than 3 years ago | (#34179716)

Except the arrows are now much bigger and go "boom!".

first post (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34179188)

suck it GNAA bitches!

Unsurprising (3, Interesting)

JustNilt (984644) | more than 3 years ago | (#34179202)

Everything I know about Oracle makes this absolutely unsurprising. It looks to me as though they're trying to cut out all the "competition" in order to ride out the recession.

Re:Unsurprising (5, Insightful)

mark72005 (1233572) | more than 3 years ago | (#34179714)

There should be a top ten list of rising stars among evil companies.

(But who would hold slots #2-10?)

Re:Unsurprising (4, Interesting)

Old97 (1341297) | more than 3 years ago | (#34180026)

Huh? Oracle has been evil for most of its 30 year existence. If you've ever done business with them you'd have experienced it first hand. They'd have been worse than Microsoft if given the chance.

Re:Unsurprising (1)

corbettw (214229) | more than 3 years ago | (#34180042)

No, they're using the recession as a convenient time to buy up or smash the competition so that when customers start buying again, they'll only buy from Oracle. From a business point of view, it's genius.

Oracle is Evil, C# > Java (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34179206)

Now that Oracle owns Java, Micorosoft's baby, C# looks alot better.

C# is better than Java anyway, so maybe Oracle's destruction of Java is a blessing in disguise.

Re:Oracle is Evil, C# Java (1, Insightful)

h4rr4r (612664) | more than 3 years ago | (#34179230)

C# is tied to a single OS. That makes it a nonstarter right there.

Mono is not a portable version, it is like its namesake a disease. Meant to poison the well that is Free Software.

Re:Oracle is Evil, C# Java (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34179358)

I honestly can't believe I just saw a comment like that on Slashdot, that was modded above 2 - and 'insightful'.

Goodbye Slashdot, you're clearly all delusional - or drones who fail to do your own research before believing in FUD.

Re:Oracle is Evil, C# Java (2, Insightful)

h4rr4r (612664) | more than 3 years ago | (#34179402)

Which part do you disagree with?

Re:Oracle is Evil, C# Java (2, Insightful)

zombieChan51 (1862028) | more than 3 years ago | (#34179528)

I think he disagreed with this

"it is like its namesake a disease. Meant to poison the well that is Free Software."

Re:Oracle is Evil, C# Java (2, Informative)

h4rr4r (612664) | more than 3 years ago | (#34179616)

In what way?
Do you not think it exists solely to get MS patents into the free software ecosystem?

Do you think MS is just going to let it thrive ever?

Mono is like moonlight, it gets MS patents into free software land and lets them claim cross compatibility without any actual cross compatibility.

Re:Oracle is Evil, C# Java (3, Insightful)

iONiUM (530420) | more than 3 years ago | (#34179412)

That's a little dramatic, isn't it? Mono is the open source implementation of .NET, which is a very solid framework I might add, though clearly MS did wield it to further Windows (I don't deny that). Mono is released under GPL, LGPL, and MIT licenses http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mono_(software) [wikipedia.org].

I mean, facts are facts, so why do you have to be so dramatic about it? Or I mean.. did it.. where did Mono touch you? You can tell me.

Re:Oracle is Evil, C# Java (3, Insightful)

Darkness404 (1287218) | more than 3 years ago | (#34179454)

Mono should be looked at like WINE, useful to port programs to, useful to get some programs to run, but shouldn't be your language of choice if you want to get cross-platform apps.

Re:Oracle is Evil, C# Java (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34179870)

Too bad it's vastly superior to virtual machines like python's and there's no unencumbered replacement. Probably any sensible replacement would step on Microsoft's and Oracle's patents too.

C and C++ are really not to everybody's liking, being the preprocessor-based fossils that they are. C# is a very nice alternative that, unlike other languages having stable, open source implementations, achieves a good balance between expressiveness and efficiency.

It's a trap (5, Insightful)

rsborg (111459) | more than 3 years ago | (#34179456)

Mono is a trap, and solely exists at Microsoft's pleasure. Once MS decides the want to kill it, out go the patent infringement lawsuits and anyone using Mono is on shaky ground unless they donate to Microsoft's coffers.

The fact that it hasn't happened yet is no insurance. Copyright/left is one thing, patents are another and I don't trust Microsoft.

Re:It's a trap (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34179548)

Sounds like you just perfectly described Java, under Oracle. You do know that unless you use Oracle's blessed Java implementation that you're not safe from the patents that they've acquired on it, right? They license it at their whim.

Re:It's a trap (3, Insightful)

Americano (920576) | more than 3 years ago | (#34179552)

It's released under LGPL, GPL, and MIT licenses... how would Microsoft ever "kill" it? They may decide to no longer officially support it, certainly, and they could stop contributing future changes to the open source implementation... but serious question:

Once it's been released under GPL, how exactly could they sue someone for using it, or forking it and continuing to work on a parallel implementation? That seems like it wouldn't stand up for a single moment in a court.

Re:It's a trap (5, Informative)

h4rr4r (612664) | more than 3 years ago | (#34179640)

You sue them over patents. Look at what MS is doing to folks build android handsets.

Re:It's a trap (1)

Americano (920576) | more than 3 years ago | (#34179832)

I've got to be honest, I'm still not seeing how that would fly in court:

Ballmer: "Here developers, developers, developers, use this Mono thing, it's awesome! You can even use our code!"

Developers Developers Developers: "Gee, Mister, Thanks! This is great, and it's even open source!"

Ballmer: "BWAHAHAHA! SUCKERS SUCKERS SUCKERS!"

Judge: "Well, Microsoft released all this code, actively supported the open source implementation of this product, and then changed their minds. I'll have to aware billions of dollars in damages for infringement to Microsoft because..."

It's that "because..." I'm having trouble filling in here. MSFT is claiming infringement on something they had no hand in creating with Android; how could they turn around and sue somebody for using something which *they helped create,* and which *they supported,* and which *they contributed source code to*? If they closed-source future revisions, somebody was bored enough to fork the GPL-released version and attempt to keep it in sync, and that forked version somehow implemented a new feature for compatibility, I could then see *some* possibility they'd go after the competing implementation, but I think if they changed the licensing on Mono back to closed, it would die from neglect soon enough anyway.

I just have trouble seeing how MSFT could successfully sue for patent infringement when they released & blessed the source code in its original implementation, at least not without a convoluted chain of events whose likelihood would seem to strain credulity.

Re:It's a trap (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34179968)

[...] is claiming infringement on something they had no hand in creating

Like that has never happened before?

Re:It's a trap (1)

beldraen (94534) | more than 3 years ago | (#34179910)

The very point of a patent is to publicly give out your understanding of an implementation for protection for a period of time from anyone else being able to use that implementation.

Specifically, if a person writes code that uses a patent, Microsoft cannot claim ownership of the code (because it is copyrighted), but Microsoft can sue you to prevent you from using the code because they own the idea.

Re:It's a trap (4, Interesting)

Enderandrew (866215) | more than 3 years ago | (#34179584)

The are a couple problems with this theory.

The EU demanded that Microsoft open several of their standards and protocols, or else. The EU can stop the sale of Microsoft products in the EU and levy more fines.

And Microsoft has made an open patent pledge.

http://www.microsoft.com/interop/principles/osspatentpledge.mspx [microsoft.com]

If they go back on that pledge and tell the EU they refuse to cooperate with their demands on interoperability, then the EU hammer drops again.

Microsoft isn't going to do that. It makes zero sense.

Re:It's a trap (3, Informative)

h4rr4r (612664) | more than 3 years ago | (#34179682)

if You make or use such software outside the scope of creating such software code, You do not benefit from this promise for such distribution or for these other activities.

Create all the software you like, but if anyone uses it they reserve the right to sue them.

Re:It's a trap (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34179732)

Do you exclusively use open source drugs?

Re:It's a trap (2, Informative)

Enderandrew (866215) | more than 3 years ago | (#34179778)

Novell extended the patent protection to anyone who uses their software. And again, if Microsoft tried to sue a company merely for using Mono software, the EU could come down again.

And I don't care who you are, a half billion dollar fine hurts. And stopping all sales of your products in the EU hurts.

Re:It's a trap (1)

vadim_t (324782) | more than 3 years ago | (#34179900)

You've not really read that page, have you? Let me quote some bits:

If You engage in the commercial distribution or importation of software derived from an open source project or if You make or use such software outside the scope of creating such software code, You do not benefit from this promise for such distribution or for these other activities.

Meaning, if you distribute, or are doing it for money, it doesn't apply to you.

This promise is not an assurance either (i) that any of the Microsoft-issued patent claims cover a Covered Implementation or are enforceable or (ii) that a Covered Implementation would not infringe on patents or other intellectual property rights of any third party. No other rights except those expressly stated in this promise shall be deemed granted, waived, or received by implication, exhaustion, estoppel, or otherwise.

This is to be expected of course, but MS has an easy way out: sell the patents and have somebody else enforce them.

Here's another opinion [softwarefreedom.org]

Re:It's a trap (2, Interesting)

MCEscher (1924800) | more than 3 years ago | (#34179998)

I was at the Mono breakout session at PDC 2008. The speaker had nothing but good things to say about Microsoft and the support they have given the Mono team. It was even a Mono breakout session about developing games for the iPhone.

Re:Oracle is Evil, C# Java (4, Insightful)

h4rr4r (612664) | more than 3 years ago | (#34179520)

The license is not the issue, the patents are the issue.

If it gains traction rest assured MS will come seeking rent like they trying to do with android now.

Re:Oracle is Evil, C# Java (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34179816)

That's just silly. If it gains traction, Microsoft will sell you Visual Studio as a development environment for it. Hmm, just like they do on Windows where the runtimes and framework are - gasp - free.

Re:Oracle is Evil, C# Java (1)

leenks (906881) | more than 3 years ago | (#34179524)

No, it is an attempt at an open source implementation of .NET (which as you say, is a solid framework, despite all the COM crap) - which isn't much different that GCJ or Harmony - neither of which anyone that uses Java takes seriously as alternatives to parts of the Java stack (though they definitely respect the efforts and intents of the developers).

Mono is definitely NOT a .NET implementation, and nobody can use it as such in "business". And like GCJ or Harmony, no .NET developers really take it seriously for the same reasons, and the fact that most .NET developers are Windows people and couldn't care less about Linux.

However, mono though it can be used as "mono" in its own right if everyone understands the implications that brings. Many people prefer other offerings given that scenario however.

Re:Oracle is Evil, C# Java (2, Insightful)

trelony (825975) | more than 3 years ago | (#34179526)

Mono violates the same patents as Android and Harmony. Microsoft bought its licence from SUN, but it does not cover Mono. Unless Microsoft makes Mono its own project, it is no better than anything else. And I thought "rewriting Hudson in C is a stupid idea". Now it makes sense...

Re:Oracle is Evil, C# Java (1)

utahjazz (177190) | more than 3 years ago | (#34179742)

GP: Mono is not portable
P: Yes it is! Here is a link to its license!

Being open source doesn't make something portable.

Dramatic fits the context of this article (5, Insightful)

pizzach (1011925) | more than 3 years ago | (#34179978)

Most people never thought Java would become a hot potato to be careful with. No one thought that Oracle would be going after people over patents. Sun put Java under the GPL2.

Can you tell me how Mono is more safe being under the GPL/LGPL/MIT when it is using tech directly from a company that is in many ways a direct competitor and has outwardly stated it thinks of open source as "communism"? Microsoft does have patents on specific things used in Mono. Mono is also under the GPL2. Coincidence? I think not.

It's called a can of worms. It's just we have a lot of slashdotters who refuse to believe it now for whatever reason.

Re:Oracle is Evil, C# Java (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34179444)

"Poison the well"? Please. At its worst, it's more like a fart in the bazaar. Nobody's going to notice it over the smell of camel shit, spoiling hummus, and body odor emanating from the unwashed neckbeards.

Re:Oracle is Evil, C# Java (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34179620)

"Poison the well"? Please. At its worst, it's more like a fart in the bazaar. Nobody's going to notice it over the smell of camel shit, spoiling hummus, and body odor emanating from the unwashed neckbeards.

It amuses me greatly that you started out with a curious analogy/similie, but then couldn't follow through on it and just forced out more raw, blunt hate for people you look down on. I mean, you could've just replaced the last sentence with you breaking down and crying, wondering why people who aren't up to your almighty standards are happy and making money, and it would've come out the same.

I'm sorry, did I say "amuses me greatly"? Yeah, no, I meant "makes me sad".

Re:Oracle is Evil, C# Java (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34180118)

It amuses me greatly that you appear never to have heard the comparison of "Open Source" development to a Bazaar, and apparently have no idea what a bazaar is, nor the term's origins as a big, messy, noisy, colorful marketplace - especially in a Middle Eastern city.

Considering the GP I responded to was complaining that it "poisons" the figurative well "that is open source," I thought a more apt description of Mono's impact & effect would be, as I described, the effect of somebody farting in the figurative bazaar that is open source. It's already noisy, smelly, and messy - a little extra funk isn't going to make a damn bit of difference.

You amuse me greatly. Yeah, no, I meant "you make me sad." Go read a book - or at least go look at the pictures, you illiterate, unimaginative buffoon.

Re:Oracle is Evil, C# Java (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34179484)

Mono [mono-project.com] runs on Android (see the market...), iPhone, Windows, Linux, and MacOS. How much more cross-platform do you need?

Re:Oracle is Evil, C# Java (0, Flamebait)

h4rr4r (612664) | more than 3 years ago | (#34179788)

1. Mono does not encompass all that is .NET. Mono itself is portable, but it does not make what most folks think of as C# portable.

2. It is living on borrowed time. If it ever gains ground Microsoft will sue it out of existence.

Re:Oracle is Evil, C# Java (1)

diskofish (1037768) | more than 3 years ago | (#34179786)

-1 Troll

I've had Mono running on a few different flavors of Linux, OS X, Windows, etc. It's portable enough. Portability is a misnomer anyway. It's not as if I can just take Java code I've written for Android and it will magically work on Windows.

Define Portable (1)

nurb432 (527695) | more than 3 years ago | (#34179956)

Mono runs on windows, mac, FreeBSD, linux and iOS. What more platforms would it need to be considered portable?

Not saying its perfect or there aren't other options, but at least be accurate.

Re:Oracle is Evil, C# Java (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34179248)

It appears that Ballmer is on /. in addition to Twitter.

Re:Oracle is Evil, C# Java (2, Informative)

SirGeek (120712) | more than 3 years ago | (#34179258)

Keep in mind that Oracle Java is the "reference" copy of Java. Just because its the one most people use is not the point. For many moons, there was a couple of OTHER java implementations (Too bad Oracle now owns the BEA implementation of java too). There is still one that FreeBSD has (that was actually "blessed" by Sun).

Re:Oracle is Evil, C# Java (3, Informative)

farnsworth (558449) | more than 3 years ago | (#34179434)

Too bad Oracle now owns the BEA implementation of java too

BEA never wrote a JVM. They bought JRocket shortly before being acquired by Oracle.

Re:Oracle is Evil, C# Java (2, Informative)

BBTaeKwonDo (1540945) | more than 3 years ago | (#34179952)

Too bad Oracle now owns the BEA implementation of java too

BEA never wrote a JVM. They bought JRocket shortly before being acquired by Oracle.

I wouldn't consider six years to be be "shortly." Quoth the Wikipedia entry for JRockit [wikipedia.org]: JRockit, a proprietary Java Virtual Machine (JVM) originally developed by Appeal Virtual Machines and acquired by BEA Systems in 2002, became part of Oracle Fusion Middleware in 2008.

Re:Oracle is Evil, C# Java (1)

GreatBunzinni (642500) | more than 3 years ago | (#34179510)

What the Java world desperately needs is a international standard defining both the language but the set of libraries and even the byte code that goes with it. As soon as the Java world starts following an international standard (or sets of standards) instead of being held hostage by a multinational corpotation then all these petty problems will go away.

Re:Oracle is Evil, C# Java (1)

leenks (906881) | more than 3 years ago | (#34179574)

No, Sun (now Oracle) defines Java and licences the trademarks and compatibility kit (ie the tests that you must pass in order to declare you are Java).

At the moment at least, nobody cares if you are a 100% complete Java implementation if you can't call yourself Java. You will not be adopted by most businesses, wont gather a large user base.

BEA don't have (didn't have?) an implementation of Java either...

And the BSD one is Sun's anyway.

Re:Oracle is Evil, C# Java (1)

sockman (133264) | more than 3 years ago | (#34179336)

C# is better than Java anyway

Citation needed. For instance, Java has much better enum support (they are proper objects) from my perspective.

Re:Oracle is Evil, C# Java (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34179380)

C# is better than Java anyway

What?

C# is (in general) a superset of Java. The language devs at Microsoft few in a couple of nice touches (e.g. shorthand for getters/setters to reduce clutter in class definitions), but by and large the rest of that superset is complete crap - most of it is just a shortcut to bad software engineering. And it's bad enough that you can make a good argument that C# is actually *worse* than Java for software engineering, simply because it provides plenty of weapons and ammunition to easily shoot yourself in the foot.

Outside of the superset, C# and Java are largely identical, except perhaps the differences in reflection APIs.

OTOH, your attitude does not surprise me, especially if you've never actually, you know, USED Java. Most of the C# books that I've seen that do comparisons with Java aren't really informed on Java basics, either, so the misinformation keeps on spreading.

Re:Oracle is Evil, C# Java (1)

AndrewNeo (979708) | more than 3 years ago | (#34179656)

I prefer having the potential to shoot myself in the foot using C# instead of always shooting my foot, my leg, and my neighbor's leg using Java.

Re:Oracle is Evil, C# Java (1)

david_thornley (598059) | more than 3 years ago | (#34179734)

The language devs at Microsoft few in a couple of nice touches (e.g. shorthand for getters/setters to reduce clutter in class definitions)....most of it is just a shortcut to bad software engineering.

I've got news for you.

Getters and setters are bad software engineering in general, so I'd have to consider properties to be a real fast shortcut to bad software engineering.

Re:Oracle is Evil, C# Java (1)

VGPowerlord (621254) | more than 3 years ago | (#34179874)

Getters and setters are bad software engineering in general, so I'd have to consider properties to be a real fast shortcut to bad software engineering.

Getters I could agree with, but setters make sense in that I can stop you from unilaterally changing my objects' variables to values that doesn't make sense/cause crashes/etc...

Re:Oracle is Evil, C# Java (1)

i.of.the.storm (907783) | more than 3 years ago | (#34179754)

What about functional programming then? Java kind of blows if you want to use that programming paradigm.

Re:Oracle is Evil, C# Java (1)

leenks (906881) | more than 3 years ago | (#34179824)

Most Java programmers can't program Java either, so it doesn't surprise me that books on Csharp get it wrong either!

Re:Oracle is Evil, C# Java (1)

Panaflex (13191) | more than 3 years ago | (#34179924)

Java has a huge tool base and lots of great development already done, more developers and a larger platform base. But, IMHO C# is a cleaner and more consistent language. Delegates are nice at times as well, something we're used in messaging and protocol libraries with great success.

Re:Oracle is Evil, C# Java (1)

Nadaka (224565) | more than 3 years ago | (#34179470)

c# has some nice friendly language features. But the JVM still vastly outperforms the CLR runtime.

" Apache Declares War On Oracle Over Java" (4, Funny)

RevWaldo (1186281) | more than 3 years ago | (#34179272)

Injuns, soothsayers, and volcanoes? Sounds like one hella cool game! When'll the demo be available?

.

Reminds me of some bad history (1)

alexschmidt (1026034) | more than 3 years ago | (#34179340)

IBM-Oracle Pact. I wonder how long this non-aggression pact will last? This sounds suspiciously like the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact. If you look it up, it had a really bad ending.

Re:Reminds me of some bad history (4, Insightful)

jd (1658) | more than 3 years ago | (#34179820)

Oracle wants to reduce the competition and to "leverage" IBM's expertise. Once that expertise has fixed the issues with OpenJDK and Harmony has died, IBM becomes disposable to Oracle.

IBM is most unlikely to stop all work on Harmony, they're just not going to distribute it. Oracle's implementation of Java will suffer performance and reliability problems. IBM already has its own compiler (Jikes) and IBM already has a Java distribution. Once IBM has the certification toolkit, it can internally continue to develop Harmony and upgrade Jikes to v7 Java. Remember, this is just a repeat of IBM's experience with Microsoft regarding OS/2 - only Oracle hasn't the muscle of Microsoft. Once IBM is satisfied, they dump Oracle, release their Java as standard on all IBM hardware and, because they have better ties with Linux than Oracle, on many Linux distros, and they'll likely be able to convince the courts that they don't infringe on any patents because they are officially licensed to be able to use whatever the technology is.

Again, though, IBM won't want too much competition in the Open Source community. They can't rob Oracle of power over Java if they aren't the de-facto controllers of Java. For now, they'll be best of enemies. Going back to the OS/2 fiasco, they learned the hard way that in such partnerships the first one to dump the other will be the winner. The partner left in the dirt WILL be trampled over, no matter how much better their product might be technically. And IBM will want to be the winner in this. Mind you, so will Oracle. Oracle will also be familiar with this process and will want to pull a Microsoft, killing IBM's Java work, forcing IBM to either sacrifice all they've spent or to sell it to Oracle at bargain-basement prices.

Re:Reminds me of some bad history (1)

mirix (1649853) | more than 3 years ago | (#34179986)

Are there really people that wouldn't know (at least roughly) what the pact was about without looking it up?

faith_in_humanity--;

Re:Reminds me of some bad history (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34180124)

There's more facts in the world than there are people. How many facts do you know? How many can you know?

In this war, there is only one rule... (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34179342)

I only have one rule... everyone fights! No one quits! If you dont' do you're job, I'll shoot you.

Nokia went for Python (5, Insightful)

accessbob (962147) | more than 3 years ago | (#34179374)

Nokia went for Python on Maemo. Looks like they knew what they were doing.

its on s60 as well (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34179538)

which means that as the symbian platform moves down the range , it will be available for hundreds of millions of phones .

Re:its on s60 as well (2, Interesting)

accessbob (962147) | more than 3 years ago | (#34179594)

It's a shame BlackBerry (aka RIM) haven't gone down the same route - they've tied themselves into a flavour of Java with a non-standard graphics API.

Re:Nokia went for Python (1)

mirix (1649853) | more than 3 years ago | (#34180044)

How so? maemo is full blown linux, you can have whatever you want on it... no?

or they have some default scripts on it that happen to be python?

Java is the new COBOL (5, Interesting)

vlm (69642) | more than 3 years ago | (#34179448)

Java is the new COBOL.

During the declining years of cobol, I/we watched the participants fighting to increase their portion of the pie, regardless of how much it shrunk the pie.

Re:Java is the new COBOL (2, Insightful)

cacba (1831766) | more than 3 years ago | (#34179588)

Im confused, was cobol the only way to develop on millions of computer (aka smartphones)?

Re:Java is the new COBOL (4, Informative)

Rich0 (548339) | more than 3 years ago | (#34179658)

No - there weren't millions of computers to develop on back then.

However, cobol was the only way to develop anything that mattered on any computers that mattered. I wouldn't be surprised if the NYSE is still running on cobol and cics...

Re:Java is the new COBOL (2, Interesting)

decipher_saint (72686) | more than 3 years ago | (#34179694)

Let me put it this way, there are still tons of COBOL apps out in the wild. The last project I was on used a DB2 backend with a ton of COBOL stored procs. Imagine my surprise at having to learn enough COBOL to be dangerous in order to facilitate change to an application with an ASP.NET front end.

Re:Java is the new COBOL (1)

leenks (906881) | more than 3 years ago | (#34179918)

There are COBOL implementations that run on JEE servers too - double whammy if you are a COBOL *and* Java expert!

Re:Java is the new COBOL (4, Insightful)

idontgno (624372) | more than 3 years ago | (#34179696)

At one time, COBOL was the only way to develop on tens of thousands of computers. Very expensive computers with very expensive maintenance and licensing contracts. There was a lot of money in this, measured in hundreds of thousands of dollars per year per site. That's probably an order of magnitude or two lower than the money at stake in the mobile software universe, but it's also probably a larger percentage of the overall market at the time.

There is a common but entirely mistaken belief that the great issues and controversies of this time are unique, unprecedented, and never-before seen. But license and market-control conflict is ancient in this industry. Almost every hassle you may see today has been seen by some earlier generation of dinosaurs.

Re:Java is the new COBOL (4, Interesting)

hsoftdev17 (1701106) | more than 3 years ago | (#34179686)

If Java is the new COBOL, I highly recommend not telling the millions of Android developers out there, or Google for that matter. I am inclined to agree that the language formerly known as "Java" (Sun's version) may be on its way out. However, the existence of alternate compilers, alternate VMs, and extensions to the language not officially sanctioned by Sun (or Oracle) seem to indicate that Java isn't going anywhere anytime soon.

Re:Java is the new COBOL (1)

mark-t (151149) | more than 3 years ago | (#34179914)

Although there is a noticeable similarity in the two languages in the sense of some of the politics involved, COBOL's biggest failure was ultimately tied to more technical limitations on the part of the language itself rather than the politics that governed it (and although those politics may have been responsible for COBOL's failure to evolve with the times, this does not appear to be happening with Java, at least not to the point that there are any foreseeable technical limitations).

Re:Java is the new COBOL (1)

hey! (33014) | more than 3 years ago | (#34180116)

Well, that's really a flawed analogy, because COBOL is a language and Java is really about *frameworks*. Of all those Java programmers out there, how many are working on projects that don't rely on some open source framework or library? That don't use Spring or Hibernate or Struts? That's not even counting Apache's Commons or Xerces.

When the fight comes, it's going to be completely different. It'll be Oracle trying to get a jiu-jutsu hold on a vast body of software using control of a small but strategic body of intellectual property.

Why be surprised? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34179536)

Oracle has one goal. Money. Any questions?

No WaY! (3, Funny)

cez (539085) | more than 3 years ago | (#34179774)

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Re:Why be surprised? (2, Funny)

Yvan256 (722131) | more than 3 years ago | (#34179856)

Oracle: I'd ask you to sit down, but, you're not going to anyway. And don't worry about that language.
Apache: What language?
[Apache turns to look for a language, and as he does, he knocks Java, which shatters on the floor.]
Oracle: That language.
Apache: I'm sorry--
Oracle: I said don't worry about it. I'll get one of my intern to fix it.
Apache: How did you know?
Oracle: Ohh, what's really going to bake you're noodle later on is, would you still have broken it if I hadn't said anything?

apache shot... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34179704)

... first!

Change this to an inflammatory title (4, Insightful)

VGPowerlord (621254) | more than 3 years ago | (#34179730)

If you wanted to make this headline more sensational, you could change it to "Apache says GPLv2 license not good enough." which is what OpenJDK7 [java.net] is licensed under.

Yeah, Apache may be at war with Oracle now, but this has the potential for much more widespread damage. It also puts the Free Software Foundation in an... interesting position, as this technically is the first salvo from Apache in a license war between GPL and Apache License.

I was about to say (3, Funny)

blair1q (305137) | more than 3 years ago | (#34179932)

I was about to say "how the hell is Sun still in business?" for about the thousandth time.

Then I remembered...

So? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34180054)

So Apache gets whiny and locks out Java?

I have plenty of alternatives.

Why? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34180108)

Attacking Oracle is generally bad idea. You get penalty for murder. And it has mere 400 nutritional value.

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