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Aussie Gov't Says Wiretap Laws Fine, Telcos 'Wrong'

timothy posted more than 3 years ago | from the honestly-what-are-you-worried-about dept.

Australia 127

mask.of.sanity writes "A top bureaucrat from the Australian Attorney-General's department has said telcos are wrong to complain about changes to the country's wiretapping laws, which will force them to report every product and network system change to law enforcement for approval, lest they affect the ability to intercept communications. The telcos argue there are simply too many products and network architecture changes to report and that it would become overbearing. It's the latest in a string of changes to communications law in the country, and comes as the government mulls data retention and the Anti-Counterfeiting Trade Agreement."

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127 comments

Soft Tyranny (4, Insightful)

causality (777677) | more than 3 years ago | (#34204114)

Soft tyranny -- it's for your protection!

Re:Soft Tyranny (1)

Dr Damage I (692789) | more than 3 years ago | (#34204842)

Asked to respond to the claims by the three telcos that the amendments would be imposing, McDonald (Geoff McDonald, Attorney Generals department's national law and policy first assistant secretary) said: "They're wrong, wrong, wrong."

"They must think we want them to provide a whole prospectus or something like that. It's the most general description about what they are doing — it's there to help them."

He's from the government and he's here to help you! [/me shudders]

Fight Back! (4, Insightful)

Afforess (1310263) | more than 3 years ago | (#34204130)

If forced to store conversations, transcribe them into a paper format, print them out, delete the digital copies, and keep a large paper archival system, for the government's perusal. Then use the cost of that as a tax writeoff.

Re:Fight Back! (4, Insightful)

bloodhawk (813939) | more than 3 years ago | (#34204236)

Costing yourself many times the amount to get a fraction of it back as a tax writeoff is hardly fighting back. That's like shooting yourself in the leg to protest the poor medical health system in order to put more pressure on the system.

Re:Fight Back! (1)

eleuthero (812560) | more than 3 years ago | (#34204364)

So print to microfiche and don't have any readers on site. Or have one thin client have access to the data required in the fourth sub-basement accessible only by stairs and three security checkpoints.

Re:Fight Back! (1)

bloodhawk (813939) | more than 3 years ago | (#34204366)

your still increasing your own costs just to spite the government. Nothing wrong with spiting them, but doing it out of your own pocket with a method that is not in the slightest way going to bother the government is hardly a success.

Re:Fight Back! (1)

eleuthero (812560) | more than 3 years ago | (#34204400)

If data retention is required, the last option actually provides more security for client conversations and a cheaper management system while still spiting the gov't.

Re:Fight Back! (3, Informative)

bloodhawk (813939) | more than 3 years ago | (#34204694)

not sure what your expectations are. Are you aware of how the government will request the data? I have dealt with a few requests, hint it won't be there problem to retrieve it from your storage. They will present you with a subpoena for specific data, you can't just hand over the lot and say, "here ya go you find it", besides which you could then find yourself in breach of all sorts of other laws for providing more information than was requested.

Re:Fight Back! (0, Redundant)

cbiltcliffe (186293) | more than 3 years ago | (#34205868)

It doesn't sound like the gov't is required to request the information. It sounds like the telcos are required to report their all changes to the government for approval.

Very much a "papers please" kind of environment.

So my suggestion would be to overwhelm the government with data.
Give them a stream of every time a user connects and gets an IP address, every time a user changes password, every time a device with a new MAC address shows up on the network, every time it moves, every time it disconnects, every time they change a password on a router, server, whatever (although not what the passwords are)..... you get the picture.

Basically, take every single log that the organization has, run it all through an aggregator into a single file, use some regex trickery to take out any personal information, then add a bunch of junk that normally isn't logged, and fire it off to the government.

While you're at it, write a couple of scripts that change passwords for stuff on a daily basis, according to some preset scheme (passwordNov12 changes to passwordNov13 tomorrow, or the like) and send them all these:

password on device router1 was changed
password on device server1 was changed
password on device router2 was changed

  messages, also. Give them such a horrendously big amount of information to wade through, that they can't possibly use it all. If every ISP in the country did this, the government might actually figure out how stupid this request is.

Re:Fight Back! (1)

wvmarle (1070040) | more than 3 years ago | (#34204438)

Something tells me that for lack of perfect voice recognition software the transcription part is going to be the costly one. Foreign languages and poor phone connections only make it worse.

The storage is the cheap part; even on paper.

Re:Fight Back! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34204730)

Or have one thin client have access to the data required in the fourth sub-basement accessible only by stairs and three security checkpoints.

Don't forget the "beware of the leopard" sign.

Re:Fight Back! (1)

cbiltcliffe (186293) | more than 3 years ago | (#34205878)

Or have one thin client have access to the data required in the fourth sub-basement accessible only by stairs and three security checkpoints.

Don't forget the "beware of the leopard" sign.

And make them bring their own flashlight.

Re:Fight Back! (1)

cheater512 (783349) | more than 3 years ago | (#34204746)

And in a disused toilet with a sign on it saying "Beware of the Leopard"

Re:Fight Back! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34205626)

So print to microfiche and don't have any readers on site. Or have one thin client have access to the data required in the fourth sub-basement accessible only by stairs and three security checkpoints.

Ah, I see you've worked in a document review role at some point in the past given your knowledge of the environment. ;)

Re:Fight Back...microfishes! (1)

sempir (1916194) | more than 3 years ago | (#34206026)

G'day...I'm from the Guvmint.....come to read your microfishes. But first...how dare you tell us to send a thin bloke to read them...we only have fat bastards in our offices...and a nother thing.....bring those bloody fishes up here...I'm not walking down four flights of stairs!

Re:Fight Back! (1)

Scrameustache (459504) | more than 3 years ago | (#34206526)

paper format, print them out, delete the digital

Costing yourself many times the amount to get a fraction of it back as a tax writeoff is hardly fighting back. That's like shooting yourself in the leg to protest the poor medical health system in order to put more pressure on the system.

It's what the french ISPs are doing to protest adopi and it pissed off the government: It works.

Re:Fight Back! (1)

Rick Bentley (988595) | more than 3 years ago | (#34204392)

better yet, just print out the waveforms.

Re:Fight Back! (1)

kaaona (252061) | more than 3 years ago | (#34204420)

Does that much paper pulp exist in Australia?

Re:Fight Back! (2, Insightful)

Gordonjcp (186804) | more than 3 years ago | (#34204816)

They're not being forced to store conversations, they're being forced to report changes in their network infrastructure. Any change in the networking, must be reported to law enforcement officials. Personally I don't see a problem with this, just email it across any time anything changes. Anything. Anything at all. How big do you think Telstra's DHCP logs get in a day? Quite big?

Strong medicine often only needs a couple of doses...

Re:Fight Back! (1)

Merls the Sneaky (1031058) | more than 3 years ago | (#34205160)

Include network outages, repair work, SnR ratio on every copper line.

So ashamed of the apathy in my country.

Re:Fight Back! (1)

cbiltcliffe (186293) | more than 3 years ago | (#34205930)

And while you're at it, write a little script that converts your logs from ASCII to some obscure encoding format that hasn't been used for a couple of decades, but was at one point some sort of standard. EBCDIC isn't really obscure enough, but that's the idea.

Then they try to open a text log file in notepad, or try to run "find_terrorist_link_information.exe" on the file, it returns garbage.

Re:Fight Back! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34205312)

No, tell them you have 'outsourced' that part - something technical to an Israeli or Swiss provider, you have no idea why, but management has approved it anyway.

Tell them you are using a BSD variant, with linux, cooked up by the backroom boys in white lab coats, and your new change system means they can change anything anytime. What happens usually depends what sort of pizza's they order and if they get off with Dr Pepper.

Meanwhile, set up a change control and service notification schedule that costs , well whatever profit you were going to have. No money for Australian IRS.

Re:Fight Back! (1)

gordguide (307383) | more than 3 years ago | (#34205398)

Make all documentation as detailed as possible. Record every single change ... if an Ethernet cable is switched out in the staff room, record as change.
If a laptop moves from one office to another, record as deletion, document, record as addition, document.
Include a full specification sheet, owner's manual, service manual, errata and updates to documentation, for each item, including the Ethernet cable.
List the individual IP addresses affected by every change, do not use ranges.
Print out the individual IP addresses of the entire network on changes that affect the network as a whole.
If paper documents are required, create huge mounds of paperwork and deliver them to the authorities, but only at random intervals and as single documents, stapled together but not bound, in cardboard boxes.
Send all documentation in single-spaced 6 point type with no page breaks, line breaks, indentations, or formatting.
If digital records are demanded, password protect each page, use a password that requires the page number be entered as part of the username, and have the password session expire every five minutes.
Require minimum 24 character passwords, generated by your own application and using the entire goddamn keyboard.
Develop or purchase a proprietary, in-house encryption application, and use said application to encrypt all documents. Do not sell site licenses; sell per-seat licenses to the Government at a reasonable fee ... say $199 a seat.
Encrypt each individual device change as one document in non-editable PDF format, then include large numbers of "This Page Left Intentionally Blank" within each pdf, but not in a continuous set and never at the end of the document.
Send a random number of duplicate copies of the same document in each batch.
Send a random number of previously submitted documents with each batch.
Insure that if government chooses "print", it prints out the entire batch of documents that form each set.

Re:Fight Back! (1)

TeraCo (410407) | more than 3 years ago | (#34205686)

If you've ever worked in a company with change management, you'd know that Telstra does the first half of that anyway.

In the second half, the government would just legislate around that by insisting "All data must be provided in XYZ format, no later than XYZ days after the change has been made."

Hell, they wouldn't even need a law to do that.. They just legislate that has the authority to generate a specification that must be legally adhered to. If any telecos tried any of your hilarious suggestions, they'd find themselves in court sooner rather than later.

You go Australia (1)

pieisgood (841871) | more than 3 years ago | (#34204156)

You go Australian government, keep up the top notch work! Because this is totally doable and nothing is wrong with it.

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uh oh (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34204166)

time to hide that huge stack of pron gents

Re:uh oh (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34206260)

time to hide that huge stack of pron gents

If you're going to misspell it, misspell it properly.

It's pr0n , dammit!

Misleading Summary (3, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34204180)

Just so you know, the data retention and the Anti-Counterfeiting Trade Agreement don't have anything to do with this particular bit of madness despite the misleading summary.

Re:Misleading Summary (1)

causality (777677) | more than 3 years ago | (#34204188)

Just so you know, the data retention and the Anti-Counterfeiting Trade Agreement don't have anything to do with this particular bit of madness despite the misleading summary.

If those two forces haven't yet figured out that they have a lot of common interests, give it time.

Re:Misleading Summary (1)

lennier1 (264730) | more than 3 years ago | (#34204244)

Considering Jack Valenti (former head of the MPAA) called filesharers terrorists it seems like some people are already halfway there.

Simple (3, Funny)

davegravy (1019182) | more than 3 years ago | (#34204186)

Yeah you change a tube here, a valve there - not much to report at all!

Simple solution (5, Funny)

sjames (1099) | more than 3 years ago | (#34204198)

Dear government, we will now use purple wirenuts rather than buttsplices to join wires.

1 minute later: Dear government, we will not use off white butt splices rather than purple wirenuts to join wires

next minute: Dear government, we changed our minds again, back to the wirenuts.

30 seconds later: Dear government, in reference to the letter sent today 30 seconds ago, we should clarify that we DO mean the purple butt splices.

15 seconds later, Hi again! Sorry, we meant wirenuts, not butt splices!

Another minute passes: Dear government, to update and clarify, the use of a moose to crimp butt splices is now absolutely forbidden! While the moose is quite majestic, their import would violate several laws and besides, moose bites can be serious.

10 seconds later: Dear government, my sister was bitten by a moose once!

another minute: Dear government, telephone communication shall now be based on dixie cups and kite string!

30 seconds later: Dear government, the previous announce was obviously in error as it would violate our policy of maintaining a second source for all key components. Any brand of paper cup might be used. The person responsible for the last memo has been sacked.

Oh Hai again! Sorry, that last message regarding the previous unauthorized message was not, in fact, authorized. Those responsable for the sacking have been sacked!

Dear government: I just don't know what was up with the memo guy, it's nonsense! We could never use kite string and paper cups (of any brand) for key telecommunications infrastructure. Everyone knows you can't join kite string with purple butt splices!

Re:Simple solution (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34204324)

That sounds like a great way to tie your business up in red tape. You won't save anything and will spend thousands on lawyers.

Re:Simple solution (1)

aaarrrgggh (9205) | more than 3 years ago | (#34204352)

Haven't you heard of bots? Script it up in Perl and be done with it. You can even grep email to find buzzwords of the day!

Re:Simple solution (1)

interkin3tic (1469267) | more than 3 years ago | (#34204612)

Make a product whose official name is the latest comment on youtube. Automate it so every time someone submits a youtube comment, that youtube comment, which is the name of your product, gets forwarded to the government e-mail address/ website. It might be kind of fast, so you might want to set up a bunch of machines to each send the new name change in.

Re:Simple solution (2, Insightful)

sco08y (615665) | more than 3 years ago | (#34204620)

Dear government, we will now use purple wirenuts rather than buttsplices to join wires.

1 minute later: Dear government, we will not use off white butt splices rather than purple wirenuts to join wires

...

You've never worked around government much, I take it.

Most agencies are perpetually behind on their paperwork to begin with, so it's doubtful they'd even notice. If they did, the increased volume would justify hiring more staff, building their little empire.

And if you were obvious enough to where they realized you were screwing with them, they can punish you by conducting audits and investigations, or simply by dragging their feet on paperwork that you need.

Re:Simple solution (2, Funny)

sjames (1099) | more than 3 years ago | (#34204704)

Ever go to a comedy club?

Ever wonder why you're the only one who never laughs?

:-)

Re:Simple solution (2, Insightful)

BeanThere (28381) | more than 3 years ago | (#34205778)

Unfortunately governments actually love extra pointless bureaucracy and paperwork, it's exactly what keeps them employed, "justifies" their payrolls, and keeps their departments and budgets "growing". That's one of the reasons they pass these economy-harming laws in the first place. Nothing would terrify a government department more than finding itself with little in the way of work to do ... come budget allocation time, that means cuts, and who wants to run a shrinking department?

We have a rigid change management process (2, Insightful)

Dr. Evil (3501) | more than 3 years ago | (#34205896)

The government is welcome to join our conference bridge for change meetings every Tuesday. It's a1 hour meeting where all changes are discussed.

Everyone dreads attending.

Re:Simple solution (1)

cbiltcliffe (186293) | more than 3 years ago | (#34206296)

So what you're saying is that the telcos should keep the government informed of changes through Twitter?

Re:Simple solution (1)

cbiltcliffe (186293) | more than 3 years ago | (#34206370)

(That's referring to the short, pointless messages, rather than the Holy Grail reference...)

i am suffislently drunk so i dini=d====t lon gon (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34204200)

i am suffislently drunk so i dini=d====t lon gon but I think that the austarialian gov,t members that said that was drunker than me

Maybe they should comply very well... (2, Interesting)

wvmarle (1070040) | more than 3 years ago | (#34204222)

Maybe report every single change in the network, apply for approval for every person moving their connection, for every new connection, for every cable repaired, for every minute change in their network. And make it very clear to the customer that to comply with the law they have to wait for the government to approve of the changes, as the government wants to make sure they can still listen in to your calls.

This should have a few effects: first of all completely overburdening the government approval system. Secondly causing delays all over even for simple routine operations, causing numerous complaints. Thirdly it makes the people very aware that their government wants to listen in to their phone calls - and that again should also give a serious outcry.

The last assuming people actually still care about their privacy. Not sure about that one.

But the overburdening and causing delays part should work well - especially when the members of the government themselves get stuck up in their own approval process and have a problem getting telephone lines moved or fixed.

This law sounds totally bullshit to me. I bet there are regulations in place already to require wiretapping facilities, that should be enough.

Re:Maybe they should comply very well... (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34204260)

Great thinking, but one of the cheaper telco's would use the protest period to play nice and try and gain market share.

The protest wouldn't last long enough.

Re:Maybe they should comply very well... (1)

eleuthero (812560) | more than 3 years ago | (#34204382)

How long is it likely to take to overtax a government agency so that they are decades behind in their paperwork? All that needs to be done is for one telco to take a loss for a quarter and hire an extra warehouse full of people to overburden the system and no one will have to file any paperwork again for several years (consider the American immigration issue--as of last April, the CI folks were up to 1995 on green card requests for people without ridiculous sums of money--my interpretation based on the friend who is stuck in illegal/legal limbo land... can't leave, can't stay).

Re:Maybe they should comply very well... (1)

wvmarle (1070040) | more than 3 years ago | (#34204450)

Is there really more than one telco maintaining a fixed line network? In most parts of the world there is just one company maintaining a network. Maybe more than one per country, but usually no overlapping networks. Australia may be different there.

As long as it's done by who-ever owns the wires and does the maintenance, fixed line customers do not have much of a choice.

Re:Maybe they should comply very well... (1)

ACDChook (665413) | more than 3 years ago | (#34204482)

All the physical lines here in Australia are owned and maintained by Telstra. Other telcos just rent lines off them for their customers.

Re:Maybe they should comply very well... (1)

Netshroud (1856624) | more than 3 years ago | (#34204546)

I thought the Optus Cable network was independent from Telstra?

Re:Maybe they should comply very well... (1)

dbIII (701233) | more than 3 years ago | (#34204608)

Yes, but it's so small that two backhoe incidents within 24 hours cut it in half last year.

Re:Maybe they should comply very well... (1)

Liam Pomfret (1737150) | more than 3 years ago | (#34204462)

Consumers most certainly do care about their privacy. The problem is what they may define as private or personal doesn't necessarily mesh with traditional viewpoints of what would be. The problem seems to be one of perception, but a campaign like this would really address that. Consumers are willing to act on privacy issues when they perceive some harm to them, and there's some big obvious ones in this case.

Re:Maybe they should comply very well... (1)

lordmetroid (708723) | more than 3 years ago | (#34204586)

I have a better idea, how about simply ignoring the assholes? A lot of people does it everyday, speeding and walking against red, downloading copyrighted content, etc. The government relies on the citizen to be docile followers. The government just like any other group is simply made out of people, they do not have infinite resources.

Re:Maybe they should comply very well... (1)

wvmarle (1070040) | more than 3 years ago | (#34204596)

Jaywalking like the other offenses you mention is easy to get away with as you're one of the millions that do it on a daily basis. The risk of getting caught is low; even if the police would hand out 1,000 fines a day that would mean only a chance of one in thousands to get a fine. If you don't look out for police on patrol that is.

Not complying to such a regulation as a company is harder as there are just a few companies. Easier to prosecute them all.

Re:Maybe they should comply very well... (1)

ArsenneLupin (766289) | more than 3 years ago | (#34204870)

Not complying to such a regulation as a company is harder as there are just a few companies.

Companies do it differently. Rather than not complying at all, they "half comply". Just be sure to still occasionally file a report. It doesn't have to be the most significant or relevant network change. Just the one that is easiest to document. As long as the government hears from you from time to time, you should be fine.

This is really not that much different from the numerous other corporate processes. Have to fill in a weekly timesheet? How many people do you know who report their websurfing, coffee breaks, etc.? No, a timesheet doesn't need to be truthful, it only needs to add up to 40 hours (... or whatever else your theoretical weekly work time is...)

Re:Maybe they should comply very well... (1)

Merls the Sneaky (1031058) | more than 3 years ago | (#34205188)

Companies do it differently. Rather than not complying at all, they "half comply". Just be sure to still occasionally file a report. It doesn't have to be the most significant or relevant network change. Just the one that is easiest to document. As long as the government hears from you from time to time, you should be fine.

That works right up until the time the feds want to wiretap someone and it doesn't work due to the tiny undocumented change. Then your gonna have feds turning over every stone to make it hard for your company. .

Re:Maybe they should comply very well... (2, Interesting)

meerling (1487879) | more than 3 years ago | (#34204832)

Had a situation in the military where the motorpool wanted to burn us for every problem with the vehicles. So we wrote up every tiny scratch, ding, and other issue, sent them all in for repairs, and rejected all attempts by the motorpool to waive off rather than fix the issues. After a little more than a week they called us up metaphorically waving the white flag.

So yes, all the Australian telcos should use that annoying process for absolutely everything can isn't excluded by the rules/laws/rulings to flood the receivers until they suspend or change the rules. If they tell the telcos to not inform them of something, but don't change the law/rules/rulings, keep telling them. Only stop when something is properly listed in the rule/law/ruling as an item excluded from being reported. It well be a living hell for the receivers of those reports, and to be honest, the telcos won't get much done since they'll be so busy writing the reports, but people will learn just how onerous such things can be. (Pricks that want something but don't have to do it themselves always underestimate or play down how much work it is for the other people.)

Re:Maybe they should comply very well... (3, Insightful)

ArsenneLupin (766289) | more than 3 years ago | (#34204892)

Problem with this approach is that the telcos would be punishing themselves more than they'd punish the lazy government employee who is supposed to read the reports.

Indeed, telcos need to dedicate manpower (or slow down their service to paying customers) to play that little game, whereas government can just throw 99% of these bogus reports into the trash where they belong, and only randomly spot check the remaining 1% to make sure that they are not just "All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy" repeated all over.

No, the most probably thing that will happen is that telcos will lie low, conveniently "forgetting" to report most changes, especially those that are trivial, hard to document, or on high pressure projects, and only submit one or two token change reports per year. Everybody will be happy, and the government bum paid for reading them will be just as lazy, and won't notice that between the report of the change from A to B, and the report of the change from C to D, the report from B to C was missing...

Re:Maybe they should comply very well... (1)

BeanThere (28381) | more than 3 years ago | (#34205798)

This should have a few effects: first of all completely overburdening the government approval system.

Unfortunately this would be counterproductive; you can't "overburden" a government department, on the contrary, they will just tax the populace even higher and hire a whole extra building full of paper-pushers to handle the additional red tape. AND, they will actually love it too, since the department heads would then be able to brag that they run an even bigger department.

Face meet palm (1)

davegravy (1019182) | more than 3 years ago | (#34204226)

I imagine the telcos DO have to track this information for their own purposes - so it shouldn't be too difficult for them to let Big Brother have a gander at the info. But to require APPROVAL for each? Getting government approval for the most trivial things takes way too long, let alone an entire network's equipment complement.

  You'd basically slow network development to a halt and end up in a technological stone age relative to other countries. Good luck Australia

Re:Face meet palm (3, Interesting)

mysidia (191772) | more than 3 years ago | (#34204506)

"(Gubermint) Upgrade a router to a T1600? You want to do WHAT?"

Sorry, that's not on our list of approved $routers_whose_manufacturer_donated_the_most_to_our_campaign. You're going to have to use a Cisco 2600s for your core routing, just like all your competitors. In 5 or 6 years, we might let you upgrade to the ASR 1000, but the approval process is still in the early stages.

Re:Face meet palm (3, Insightful)

EdIII (1114411) | more than 3 years ago | (#34204874)

I think it is worse than that.

Your post implies that corruption would be the greatest interference in network operations at the ISP.

My experience in my own country shows that those that work for the government do so because they lacked the skills (on many levels) to work in the private sector.

In order for the government to approve the changes, they would need to first understand them. Increasing the operational costs of the both the ISPs and the government at the same time.

Who decides who is right in the event of a disagreement? The idiot in the government who could not cut it in the private sector, or the well paid network engineer in the ISP?

This makes all the ISPs only as smart as the IT personnel the government hires to evaluate the approval requests...... yeah...... that will work out great.

Australia should just quit the fucking foreplay and eliminate all private sector technology companies and go with state run everything. At least approval would go faster since it all in house anyways.

Re:Face meet palm (1)

cbiltcliffe (186293) | more than 3 years ago | (#34206440)

Australia should just quit the fucking foreplay and eliminate all private sector technology companies and go with state run everything. At least approval would go faster since it all in house anyways.

Back in the U.A.S.R!

Re:Face meet palm (1)

Issarlk (1429361) | more than 3 years ago | (#34204912)

Australia should simply send stormtroopers at the Telco and burn the evil interweb to the ground. It surelly looks like it's their goal ultimately.

Got nothing to hide, but must still wear clothes. (5, Insightful)

VortexCortex (1117377) | more than 3 years ago | (#34204302)

From TFA:

Australian Federal Police, ... noted that "there is nothing worse than to see criminals escape conviction because of technology"

Nothing worse? How about treating the populous like criminals even though they are innocent? If this doesn't qualify as worse to you, then you shouldn't be in law-enforcement or politics.

I just loathe the line of thinking exhibited by the police.

Cars are technology that help the vast majority of escaping criminals escape. Perhaps they all need tracking devices installed so that we know where everyone is going at all times.

Books convey technical information that may help a criminal escape. We should pass a law requiring all books read to be reported to the police as well.

Some rapists use condom technology to escape without leaving their DNA! Citizens should be required to keep a condom log detailing the time and date of each condom purchase and use.

Re:Got nothing to hide, but must still wear clothe (4, Funny)

statusbar (314703) | more than 3 years ago | (#34204384)

I thought Australia was a penal colony anyway? So then they are all criminals, and therefore it is ok.

--jeffk++

Re:Got nothing to hide, but must still wear clothe (2, Funny)

davester666 (731373) | more than 3 years ago | (#34204444)

Yeah.

And who took off all their gps ankle monitors? Last time I was there, nobody was wearing them, and I wasn't just wandering around in tourist-only areas...

Re:Got nothing to hide, but must still wear clothe (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34204568)

As opposed to the USA that was founded on slavery, started off as a penal colony AND now has 50 % of the worlds drug usage and how many tens of thousands of gun murders a year ? A nation of drug addicted murderers.

You have nothing to be proud of.

Re:Got nothing to hide, but must still wear clothe (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34206472)

U.S.A! Num..Ber..One!

Re:Got nothing to hide, but must still wear clothe (-1, Offtopic)

Psychotria (953670) | more than 3 years ago | (#34204668)

Your posts score is currently 3, so I have to assume you are a successful troll. I also have to assume that you're a complete idiot. Maybe you were trying to be funny but that's not ok. Australia was never a penal colony. The British established a penal colony in Australia. They never declared the whole country was a penal colony and only criminals would go there. Get a fucking clue. Thanks.

Re:Got nothing to hide, but must still wear clothe (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34205248)

You are obviously one of those deviant criminal australians.

"Not a penal colony"... Criminals always say they are innocent.

I'm not sure how he got out... But we'll call the guards and have him taken back to his country right away.

Re:Got nothing to hide, but must still wear clothe (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34204992)

When I meet a Brit over here I like to ask "What are you in for?"

Re:Got nothing to hide, but must still wear clothe (2, Insightful)

kiddygrinder (605598) | more than 3 years ago | (#34205482)

tbh i'd prefer to be a penal colony than founded by a bunch of puritans, but whatever floats your boat :)

Re:Got nothing to hide, but must still wear clothe (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34204386)

They're already working on tracking everyone's cars with electronic speed limiting, and everyone in Australia is pretty much a criminal anyway so we don't need to worry about the populace being innocent - everyone's guilty of SOMETHING, we just need these wiretap laws to work out what you've done.

Re:Got nothing to hide, but must still wear clothe (1)

wvmarle (1070040) | more than 3 years ago | (#34204460)

Nothing worse? How about treating the populous like criminals[...]

Remember this is Australia we're talking about :-)

Re:Got nothing to hide, but must still wear clothe (0)

lordmetroid (708723) | more than 3 years ago | (#34204606)

News alert! The cars sold today are already tracked through GPS and data is stored in a black box sitting under the hood. The GPS information has been used by the police in several cases that has been in the "news".

Why does it seem like (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34204314)

Every first-world country is doing the same thing? Are there any countries anymore that aren't going the way of the nanny state?

Re:Why does it seem like (4, Insightful)

sjames (1099) | more than 3 years ago | (#34204428)

Technically, the U.S. isn't really going towards nanny state as that would imply an element of taking care of people rather than just watching them. It's more a Mommy Dearest state really.

Re:Why does it seem like (1)

wlad (1171323) | more than 3 years ago | (#34204490)

+100 insight If you're going to do this panopticon nanny state thing then please try to at least take care of your people, keep them happy in every part of their lives not just 'security'. North Korea does *not* qualify as a nanny state. I guess in a true nanny state you require much less actual surveillance, as most people will voluntarily give up their information. Also, there would almost be no government violence. It'd just be for those 'children' that don't want to play along : I don't like the idea either, but it's better then the direction that we seem to be going.

Re:Why does it seem like (1)

causality (777677) | more than 3 years ago | (#34204526)

Technically, the U.S. isn't really going towards nanny state as that would imply an element of taking care of people rather than just watching them. It's more a Mommy Dearest state really.

Yes but all of that watching is in the name of preventing terrorism, preventing crime, and making sure no one gets offended. It's for your own good, because the world can be a very scary place and we know what's best for you. It only takes a teensy-weensy little bit more political power, then we can finally make all the big nasty scary things in the media go away. Our intentions are as pure as the driven snow. Just trust us, we have such a trustworthy history. After all, trusting us is what a real patriot would do. Oh, and dissent at such a critical time might embolden our enemies. You are a real patriot, aren't you?

Re:Why does it seem like (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34206178)

I was told that 'they' hate us for our freedoms.

Clearly, we must rid ourselves of troublesome freedom; that way, 'they' won't hate us anymore.

Re:Why does it seem like (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34204440)

Every first-world country is doing the same thing? Are there any countries anymore that aren't going the way of the nanny state?

Because a small international elite has compromised all of them while granting an illusion of choice through rigged elections (douche vs. turd sandwich) and carefully framed debate. Duh.

Those people you see on TV giving speeches? Yeah, about them. They have their fame and status and financial support so long as they play ball. If they don't play ball, step on the wrong toes, or develop a conscience then they lose the support it takes to win elections. Or they're disgraced by some scandal. The real power-brokers play for keeps and they don't like cameras. Most of you are worried about the elephant and the donkey, the Republicans and the Democrats and their game of musical chairs. And that's just fine by them.

Jack boot bureaucrats (1)

countertrolling (1585477) | more than 3 years ago | (#34204344)

The worst kind of thug there is.

Political party against it (5, Informative)

Joakal (1317443) | more than 3 years ago | (#34204380)

Complimentary pirate party against ACTA. http://pirateparty.org.au/ [pirateparty.org.au]

There's some discussion [pirateparty.org.au] to protest the next ACTA meeting in Sydney. It would be great to emphasise how shocking it is for ACTA discussion to be held behind doors when it affects everyone in Australia.

Please do post other options or suggestions against ACTA. I don't want this gross violation of democracy to occur.

Re:Political party against it (1)

TheTurtlesMoves (1442727) | more than 3 years ago | (#34204824)

You know I would be a lot more supportive of that party if they at least went to the effort of naming themselves politically.

As it is, it sounds like a bunch of teenagers who don't like paying for music. Hardly a good vehicle for a political awareness campaign.

Re:Political party against it (2, Insightful)

LingNoi (1066278) | more than 3 years ago | (#34204886)

Well then here you go.. http://www.openrightsgroup.org/ [openrightsgroup.org]

Re:Political party against it (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34204848)

They haven't registered as a party, even when there was a push last election (only need 500 members, and membership was given out free to some people), and have zero interaction on their website these days. I'm endlessly frustrated by the clowns who run the fledgling operation - it could be so much more than just a circlejerk of guys in Sydney who dislike paying for CDs.

I'm all for protesting ACTA, but if I was able to fly (other side of the country) to Sydney, I'd be backing an organisation worth a damn or just going as my own private citizen rather than flying the PPAU flag.

I'm not proud to be Aussie (2, Interesting)

metrix007 (200091) | more than 3 years ago | (#34204566)

My country is going down the drain. I haven't been back in 2 and a half years, and the way things are going don't really want to.

Why they are REALLY complaining (2, Insightful)

dbIII (701233) | more than 3 years ago | (#34204604)

Because Telstra isn't competant enough to be able to keep track of the changes themselves and now they'll have to audit their own network.
It really comes down to staff levels, firing everyone with a clue and bringing some (nowhere near enough) of them back as contractors on restricted hours.
Telstra is the unholy thing you get when a government monopoly is told to go out there and make money any way it can. Maintainance costs money and keeping track of it even more so.
The only other real competition is from the Singapore government owned Optus (another weird abomination) but their landline network is very small.
Civil liberties are important but not to Telstra, and most definately not to Optus.

Re:Why they are REALLY complaining (1)

TapeCutter (624760) | more than 3 years ago | (#34204664)

"Because Telstra isn't competant enough to be able to keep track of the changes themselves"

I worked on telstra systems for 7yrs in the 90's and will corroberate that statement.

Golden times ahead.. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34204962)

well at least for those that are providing VPN services overseas.

Older Technology (1)

Spottywot (1910658) | more than 3 years ago | (#34204982)

Have they tried tapping into the Bush Telegraph to find out what people really think?

Conveyancing (1)

carol5033 (1939252) | more than 3 years ago | (#34205242)

In law, conveyancing is the transfer of legal title of property from one person to another, or the granting of an encumbrance such as a mortgage or a lien. The term conveyancing may also be used in the context of the movement of bulk commodities or other products such as water, sewerage, electricity, or gas.[url="http://www.solicitorservice.co.uk/category/find-a-solicitor"]Conveyancing[/url]

Well.... (1)

RichiH (749257) | more than 3 years ago | (#34205288)

...obviously, the concept the Aussie gvt is pushing is beyond bat-shit crazy.

That being said, any ISP which does not have a VCS with _all_ configs of all network devices at any time is equally crazy. Unless they are generating their config from templates in which case they should have those sources in a VCS.

If nobody can afford internet service ... (1)

Squirmy McPhee (856939) | more than 3 years ago | (#34205332)

... then it will be easy to prevent criminal using the internet to escape. And it seems that, intentionally or no, that is the direction they're headed. These requirements sound like a recipe for drastically increasing expenses while simultaneously making the internet less useful to end-users. If they intend to pass those expenses on to their customers, I think it will be no surprise if an awful lot of Australians suddenly start remembering how well they got along in the pre-internet days.

Thousands of changes a day (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34205404)

There are thousands of network changes made every day with spikes on weekends. Assuming the telocs have a change management system for internal notification of changes - and the probably do - then providing that feed to a single government person/server shouldn't be too hard. It will cost 1 person's time for a few weeks to set up.

If they don't have a centralized CMS, they meeting this mandate is impossible for a few years until the telco gets one in place AND changes their internal processes to make it their primary tool.

BTW, I've worked in a telco that has one of these systems. Sure, there are times that it sucks. There are also times when a review of a change by someone way outside the project has prevented outages.

Personally, I think this is a waste because the government doesn't have experts capable to reviewing the data, they won't have connections into other systems which would have the details - change management systems will be full of location buzzwords without any explanation. If the government wants to know what is actually going on, they'd need to hire many experts formerly within the telcos to interpret everything. Watching logs - and that would be what this job was - really sucks. I wouldn't take it for less than 3x my current salary. After a year, I'd leave.

Australian Government needs to get their hands out of private industry and poorly targeted attempts to protect their citizens. The government should be part of discussions and make "best practice" recommendations on things they actually know how to do. They don't know telecom. Purchasing lots of telco services doesn't make you a expert, mr government.

Re:Thousands of changes a day (1)

TeraCo (410407) | more than 3 years ago | (#34205744)

There are thousands of network changes made every day with spikes on weekends. Assuming the telocs have a change management system for internal notification of changes - and the probably do - then providing that feed to a single government person/server shouldn't be too hard.

You would be surprised at how few actual changes (rather than outages being returned to working condition) Telstra makes in a day. It's on the lower side of 50. I've worked at Telstra and interacted at length with change management. To actually 'change' something requires a horrifying amount of paperwork. (Compared to fixing a fault which requires one ticket outlining actions done to fix.)

Any major changes (such as implementing a new product, server, system) are all actioned in one large bundle of changes before the product goes live, and after that you're locked in and can't change anything at all without a change ticket.

It actually makes the network more stable in the long run, because it prevents cowboys from just plugging their laptop into a switch and causing a country wide outage. [Actual thing that happened once].

The ironic response woule be best (1)

Drakkenmensch (1255800) | more than 3 years ago | (#34205708)

They WANT info on telco system changes? I say the telcos should teach them a lesson on being careful what you wish for... and bury them in a flood of technical documents as detailed as possible!!!

comply (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34206228)

hhe solution to bad laws like this is simply to comply, in full, and overwhelm he law enforcement agencies. let law enforcement be responsible for telling the lawmakers that the idea is broken. and to prevent any real impact, start before he law takes effect, reporting changes already made each day and(if possible) needed approval turnaround needed to continue to operate their networks.

This is about money. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34206448)

You guys want to put in a non-[company name] router? Sorry, but [company bribing government] is the only approved source.

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