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The Coming War Over the Future of Java

Soulskill posted more than 3 years ago | from the can't-we-all-just-get-along dept.

Java 583

snydeq writes "Fatal Exception's Neil McAllister writes about what could be the end of the Java Community Process as we know it. With the Apache Software Foundation declaring war on Oracle over Java, the next likely step would be a vote of no confidence in the JCP, which, if the ASF can convince enough members to follow suit, 'could effectively unravel the Java community as a whole,' McAllister writes, with educators, academics, and researchers having little incentive to remain loyal to an Oracle-controlled platform. 'Independent developers could face the toughest decisions of all. Even if the JCP dissolves, many developers will be left with few alternatives,' with .Net offering little advantage, and Perl, Python, and Ruby unable to match Java's performance. The dark horse? Google Go — a language Google might just fast-track in light of its patent suit with Oracle over Android." Reader Revorm adds related news that Oracle and Apple have announced the OpenJDK project for OS X.

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Where is IBM? (5, Insightful)

rvw (755107) | more than 3 years ago | (#34206790)

They are the one and only company that can pull this thing straight. They have the money, they have proven their commitment to OSS, so I sincerely hope they step in and fix this. It's too important to let Oracle mess everything up.

Re:Where is IBM? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34206828)

Is Larry Ellison Darth Vader or the Evil Emperor?

Re:Where is IBM? (1)

mcvos (645701) | more than 3 years ago | (#34207310)

Considering IBM just went over to the Dark Side, I'd say IBM is Darth Vader. So Larry Ellison has to be the Emperor.

Re:Where is IBM? (1)

Mongoose Disciple (722373) | more than 3 years ago | (#34207328)

So Larry Ellison has to be the Emperor

Great. Like he wasn't dangerous enough without shooting lightning out of his frickin' hands!

IBM is the third Front in the War (5, Informative)

medv4380 (1604309) | more than 3 years ago | (#34206900)

Google is trying to force the legal issue and end this with a court battle.
Apache is trying to end it using the JCP
IBM is trying to be all chummy and get Oracle to support OpenJDK

If Google wins then Java is Free, if Apache wins then Java is Free, if IBM wins then Java is theirs.

Re:IBM is the third Front in the War (5, Informative)

VGPowerlord (621254) | more than 3 years ago | (#34207262)

IBM is trying to be all chummy and get Oracle to support OpenJDKIBM is trying to be all chummy and get Oracle to support OpenJDK

OpenJDK is Sun's (now Oracle's) project to begin with. IBM switched its support from Apache Harmony to OpenJDK. So, you could say that IBM has already chosen sides.

Re:Where is IBM? (3, Informative)

Lennie (16154) | more than 3 years ago | (#34206912)

They seem to be on the side of Oracle. They left Apache behind.

Re:Where is IBM? (5, Interesting)

WrongSizeGlass (838941) | more than 3 years ago | (#34207014)

Not trolling, but is Java really worth the fight at this point? Years ago it had the promise of the 'programming panacea' but now it's just another programming language. Yes, it's deeply ingrained in the internet and server landscapes, but that isn't going to change if Oracle wants to start charging fees for integration with their middleware and for some advanced utilities.

The mobile/embedded world is a different animal but Google certainly has something in the works to dodge the Android uses Java mess. Once Google releases a new VM that avoids the Java comparisons the rest of the mobile/embedded world will transition to it and leave Oracle holding an empty bag.

It won't be easy but look at how far Android developers have come in the short time Android has been available. Google isn't flawless but they won't want to pay any licensing and they'd rather spend the cash on developing an alternative.

Re:Where is IBM? (1)

oh_my_080980980 (773867) | more than 3 years ago | (#34207026)

They've signed a deal with Oracle.

Re:Where is IBM? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34207092)

What's in it for Big Blue?

So far I'm not seeing anything.

Google Go... (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34206792)

jump off a cliff, with all your snooping. I can't say your ripoff of Apple UI ideas is appreciated either.

Go is an ancient board game, by the way. I'd think the geniuses at Google could come up with something more unique.

Re:Google Go... (1)

Nerdfest (867930) | more than 3 years ago | (#34206936)

An Apple is a fruit. There are only so many words, and Go seems as good as any and better than some.

Re:Google Go... (2, Funny)

maxwell demon (590494) | more than 3 years ago | (#34206992)

They could have called it Goo. They just would have to be careful to never put "grey" in front of it.
Actually, thinking again, I guess they actually want it to behave like grey goo: Eat up market share from any other language until everyone writes his code in Goo.

Alternatives? (5, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34206812)

You know, this is very puzzling. Why hasn't FOSS come up its own managed runtime+language stack?

It's certainly not for a lack of engineering talent.

Procrastination? Lack of vision? Or is open source just too tribal and fragmented to coordinate on something so big and cross-disciplinary?

Re:Alternatives? (1)

ByOhTek (1181381) | more than 3 years ago | (#34206922)

Or is open source just too tribal and fragmented to coordinate on something so big and cross-disciplinary?

I'm tempted to respond to this with "Hammer, mean head-of-nail", except that we have projects like Linux, FreeBSD, KDE, Gnome. Even though they are competing, they are big and seem to be quite cross-disciplinary. Likewise there's GCC, which could be considered the same (and lacking serious FOSS competition).

More likely, nobody has felt the need, given what is currently available.

Re:Alternatives? (5, Informative)

Lennie (16154) | more than 3 years ago | (#34206928)

Something like http://www.parrot.org/ [parrot.org] you mean ? A whole new VM which can run multiple languages.

Re:Alternatives? (1)

maxwell demon (590494) | more than 3 years ago | (#34207244)

Given that Parrot also runs JavaScript (according to their page), it would be interesting to compare its speed with the JavaScript speed of current browsers.
Also, given that there's a .NET bytecode translator (again, according to their page) a benchmark against .NET would also be interesting.

Re:Alternatives? (5, Informative)

icebraining (1313345) | more than 3 years ago | (#34206952)

Parrot is a register-based process virtual machine designed to run dynamic languages efficiently. It uses just-in-time compilation for speed to reduce the interpretation overhead. It is currently possible to compile Parrot assembly language and PIR (an intermediate language) to Parrot bytecode and execute it. Parrot is an open source project distributed with a free software licence, making Parrot free software.
(...)
Many languages already have compiler front-ends designed for Parrot, however many of them are still only partially functional. The languages currently implementable, partially and fully, on Parrot are: Arc, APL, bc, Befunge, Brainfuck, C, Common Lisp, ECMAScript (aka JavaScript), Forth, Generic Imperative Language, GNU m4, HQ9 Plus, Jako, Java, Java bytecode, Joy, Lazy K, Lisp, LOLCODE, Lua, MiniPerl (Perl 1.0), NQP (Not Quite Perl), Octave, Ook!, Perl (via Rakudo), PHP (via Pipp), Python, QuickBASIC 4.5, Ruby (via Cardinal), Scheme, Shakespeare, Smalltalk (via Chitchat), the "squaak" tutorial language, Tcl (via partcl), Unlambda, WMLScript, and .NET bytecode.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parrot_virtual_machine [wikipedia.org]

Re:Alternatives? (5, Interesting)

fishbowl (7759) | more than 3 years ago | (#34206984)

>You know, this is very puzzling. Why hasn't FOSS come up its own managed runtime+language stack?

The strength of Java is less in the language and more in the widespread adoption of enterprise frameworks. I have less appreciation of the language itself than I do for the ASF toolchain and for Spring. I realize that Python has parallels for these things, but they tend to not be used in the places where Java is used, by which I mean places that have ever given me paychecks.

When these threads come up, I'm usually shocked by how little awareness there seems to be of just how much business software is in Java, and how much of that responsibility rests on various Apache projects over the years. It would be a real surprise to see any Enterprise Java that doesn't link at least some ASF libraries, and usually there are *many*.

Apache, not Sun or Oracle or IBM is the big name in Java. I hope the Apache group can make a unified front and play their cards effectively, but so far they are acting like victims.

Re:Alternatives? (2, Insightful)

butlerm (3112) | more than 3 years ago | (#34207236)

Apache, not Sun or Oracle or IBM is the big name in Java.

Apparently, Apache needs to start applying for defensive patents, or it is not going to be the big name in anything.

Re:Alternatives? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34206986)

Why hasn't FOSS come up its own managed runtime+language stack?

Parrot [parrot.org] is working on it.

Re:Alternatives? (5, Informative)

TheRaven64 (641858) | more than 3 years ago | (#34207170)

Why hasn't FOSS come up its own managed runtime+language stack?

You mean, apart from Perl, Python, Ruby, GNU Smalltalk, Pharo, Lua, Io, and so on? Probably because they solve a problem that is only really applicable in the closed-source world: needing to run the same binary on multiple operating systems / architectures. If you have the source code, [Objective-]C[++], Pascal, Fortran, or whatever is just as portable as Java, if not more so.

Re:Alternatives? (1)

countertrolling (1585477) | more than 3 years ago | (#34207280)

Not a troll. The parent covers some important reasons why many human endeavors come up short, not just FOSS.

In fact the moderator is probably exhibiting that very tribalism (fanboiism)

Java is a hot potato, time for something else, unless it can be wrenched loose from its corporate straitjacket. That means, don't trust IBM or Google anymore than you would Oracle.

Google Go on android? (1)

falldeaf (968657) | more than 3 years ago | (#34206818)

It kind of sounds like Oracle is shooting themselves in the foot with these suits against google...

Morons (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34206834)

You guys are reading WAAAY too much into this.

Java will prevail, this is just about jacking out some money.

C# (3, Interesting)

Xugumad (39311) | more than 3 years ago | (#34206836)

Maybe I'm being naive, but right now C# looks fairly tempting. MS aren't pulling strange "premium VM" tricks, Mono is well developed and generally works as expected, and it's not a huge leap in terms of language. Many libraries in Java have C# equivalents (Bouncy Castle, iText, etc.). If we were going to leap from Java, C# would definitely be top of my likely destinations.

But no, obviously we're more likely to jump to a language I've never heard of before, with none of the libraries we use, and no experience base to pull from...

Re:C# (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34206858)

Of course, because Google will force us to!

Why not C#? (4, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34206890)

Not to mention that C# already has a ton of useful features that are, at best, planned for Java 7 and 8 (or later).

I've done significant cross-platform .Net/mono development and 99% of the stuff "just works". I'd argue that Mono is actually a better cross-platform development environment than Java *right now*. Java often requires tweaks because different builtins work differently on different platforms, even though they're not supposed to.

Re:Why not C#? (1)

AnonymousClown (1788472) | more than 3 years ago | (#34207152)

I wish that C# had the same Linux kernel support as Java does.

Re:Why not C#? (5, Informative)

Chrisq (894406) | more than 3 years ago | (#34207246)

I wish that C# had the same Linux kernel support as Java does.

It does. None.

Re:Why not C#? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34207232)

Java often requires tweaks because different builtins work differently on different platforms, even though they're not supposed to

Citation needed

Re:C# (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34206894)

With Microsofts history over the past 20 years, I'd say they won't pull any strange tricks until enough people have adapted it and are locked in, then they will suddenly have a change of heart. It's only Microsofts kind heart that keeps C# and Mono open enough, not *anything* legally binding.

Re:C# (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34206938)

They said the same thing about Java, now look we're we are.

Re:C# (3, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34207252)

Congratulations, you have proven parent poster's point.

Re:C# (0)

Lennie (16154) | more than 3 years ago | (#34206940)

Multiplatform ?

Re:C# (1)

FreelanceWizard (889712) | more than 3 years ago | (#34207100)

One word: Mono.

Re:C# (1)

overnight_failure (1032886) | more than 3 years ago | (#34207130)

I'm guessing you don't know much about Mono then.

Re:C# (2, Interesting)

Mongoose Disciple (722373) | more than 3 years ago | (#34206944)

I think C# is well poised to scoop up the niche Java filled in businesses/enterprise -- when Java stagnated, it was the existence of a constantly-improving C# that forced Java to improve as well again. Similarly, I don't see any reason that C# isn't a good replacement for the kinds of web applications that previously would have been written in Java. (Note that this is not all web apps.)

I'm less sure about C# in the embedded/mobile space -- I don't have a lot of expertise with either, and these have been huge markets for Java.

Re:C# (2, Interesting)

BitZtream (692029) | more than 3 years ago | (#34207286)

C# is only worth mentioning on Windows.

Mono my run CLR apps and may have compilers for it, but the Mono VM is absolutely shit and can't be used for any serious long running process.

It works fine for lightweight desktop apps, but until they learn what a compacting garbage collector is, its entirely worthless for anything thats intended to have any sort of up time associated with it.

Having to restart my webserver regularly due to Out of Memory errors, or worry about allocation order to prevent fragmentation are not something I want to deal with when I'm writing web apps or background services.

When I get to the point that I'm thinking about memory allocation/deallocation and fragmentation, I'm just going to use C.

Re:C# (1)

subanark (937286) | more than 3 years ago | (#34207066)

You can use IKVM to run most Java libraries in the c# (mono or .NET) environment.

I like that c# is progressing much faster than Java is. Java has been stuck in version 6 for quite a while now; version 6 only has a few slight language changes from 5.

However, I think c# goes a bit too fast; it has some language bloat where there is not a clear direction on where things are going. Many non-intuitive language features make understanding code more difficult. The core library is the worst offender, as it has a lot of Microsoft specific features that were not made very extensible. Many library functions can change the way the language operates and compiles, making it harder to build robust libraries and code that works well with the unknown.

Objective C (1)

goombah99 (560566) | more than 3 years ago | (#34207106)

Objective C is associated with Apple but it's not an apple exclusive. It has the late binding attraction of Java, but the speed of C. It simplifies objects and is easier to write than C++.

Re:C# (4, Insightful)

Raenex (947668) | more than 3 years ago | (#34207122)

Maybe I'm being naive, but right now C# looks fairly tempting.

Yes, you are incredibly naive. People are looking to flee Java because of the greedy and proprietary corporation behind it, Oracle, and you think they should run into the arms of Microsoft? Get a clue.

Re:C# (1)

Mongoose Disciple (722373) | more than 3 years ago | (#34207202)

For this specific kind of thing, Microsoft has never been the kind of antagonist that Oracle is. It just hasn't been, and there isn't any reasonable and true set of facts you can pull to make it so.

Or are we just ignoring that because we hate Microsoft more than we like actually getting things done with our code?

Re:C# (3, Interesting)

Raenex (947668) | more than 3 years ago | (#34207272)

For this specific kind of thing, Microsoft has never been the kind of antagonist that Oracle is.

Bwahahhaaa. Hahaahahahahaha.

Sorry for being crass, but this statement is just so ignorant. Are you saying that Microsoft doesn't have free versions and for-pay versions? Are you saying Microsoft doesn't have a past history of being an abusive monopoly? Are you saying Microsoft has never sued anybody over patents?

Re:C# (3, Informative)

Mongoose Disciple (722373) | more than 3 years ago | (#34207298)

Are you saying Microsoft doesn't have a past history of being an abusive monopoly? Are you saying Microsoft has never sued anybody over patents?

With respect to its languages and development tools, no, not so much.

Re:C# (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34207188)

I personally feel C# is a better language than Java. I always have (but I got burned many times by idiotic stuff in Java back in Java's early days of the 90's). But I have stayed away from it because of Microsoft. Plus it feels somewhat bloated for some reason. There is just so much shit that has to be installed to make .NET or Mono work. On top of that, Mono/C# is absolute crap on OSX.

If you haven't heard if Go then I don't consider you a developer of any skill. It's an interesting language for sure but over all these decades there has never been any C/C++ replacement that has worked, I'm not so sure Go will fare any better. Previously Go was severely limited by the platforms it supports but it looks like they have fixed that at this point, I might have to take a look at it again.

Re:C# (5, Insightful)

gmuslera (3436) | more than 3 years ago | (#34207258)

So, as the actual problem with java is the corporation that "owns" it decided to misbehave, you propose to switch to another language, from another corporation, for which misbehavig is their way of life?

Re:C# (1)

geekoid (135745) | more than 3 years ago | (#34207290)

C# is fine for desktop apps, but if you want to do anything tight, then you will be disappointed.

Re:C# (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34207296)

Mono is horrible for anything with a GUI. I've tried running numerous .Net apps on linux (openSUSE, Ubuntu) with a powerful graphics card and it's pretty much unusable. Whereas Java GUI apps run perfectly on linux.

".Net offering little advantage" (3, Informative)

ByOhTek (1181381) | more than 3 years ago | (#34206870)

Really? As competition to Java it is fairly comparable. It has some features that, used improperly will lead to slower code (though, they are nice as a convenience), it is missing some features, has some features that Java is missing, and the free version of Visual Studios, at least in my opinion, is a nicer IDE than Eclipse, Netbeans or Anjuta. And it's not being used in a bunch of lawsuits by it's owner.

As a point of reference as to where I'm coming from with this post - Sysadmin + Java programmer at work, C/C#/Python Programmer at home.

Re:".Net offering little advantage" (4, Insightful)

dclozier (1002772) | more than 3 years ago | (#34206910)

Really? As competition to Java it is fairly comparable. It has some features that, used improperly will lead to slower code (though, they are nice as a convenience), it is missing some features, has some features that Java is missing, and the free version of Visual Studios, at least in my opinion, is a nicer IDE than Eclipse, Netbeans or Anjuta. And it's not being used in a bunch of lawsuits by it's owner.

Yet...

Re:".Net offering little advantage" (4, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34206934)

This is exactly why Oracle has to stop what it's doing. ByOhTek has exactly the same mentality as most Windows developers/shops, i.e., the view that now Java is embroiled in lawsuits while Mono is stable and safe. Microsoft would never lock you into a platform.

Incidentally, I've worked in Java and .NET. Visual Studio is a big disappointment when you been working in NetBeans or Eclipse. Maybe I just don't see the appeal.

Re:".Net offering little advantage" (1)

Mongoose Disciple (722373) | more than 3 years ago | (#34207012)

Incidentally, I've worked in Java and .NET. Visual Studio is a big disappointment when you been working in NetBeans or Eclipse. Maybe I just don't see the appeal.

I'll give you that NetBeans is a pretty nice IDE, but Eclipse? Ugh. I much prefer VS to that. Maybe I just don't think you should need to spend a huge pile of time choosing, installing, and configuring plug-ins to get a halfway decent IDE (that will still run like shit on the world's heftiest desktop hardware.)

I know people who love Eclipse, but I've never been able to get a reason for why out of them that wasn't either objectively wrong or completely insane.

Re:".Net offering little advantage" (1)

AnonymousClown (1788472) | more than 3 years ago | (#34207216)

Visual Studio is a big disappointment when you been working in NetBeans or Eclipse.

Having used all three myself, I disagree. Visual Studio was the best out of all 3, although, NetBeans is really coming along but still has performance issues: its UI isn't as snappy as VS. Eclipse I found to be horribly slow coming up, unresponsive half the time, the UI is unintuitive, plugins are flaky as all hell, and making file changes in projects are just a nightmare - their handling of projects is not flexible at all.

Re:".Net offering little advantage" (1)

BitZtream (692029) | more than 3 years ago | (#34207322)

I don't use Eclipse, but NetBeans you think is better than VisualStudio?

Thats like saying Duplo blocks are better than Legos.

Re:".Net offering little advantage" (1)

geekoid (135745) | more than 3 years ago | (#34207274)

no it isn't comparable at all.
You're completely ignorant on the scope that Java is used.

And so you know where I am coming from. I do .net and java work. Also, I have worked with pretty much every language out there.

and yes in a great many ways visual studio is superior to eclipse.

Re:".Net offering little advantage" (1)

TheTurtlesMoves (1442727) | more than 3 years ago | (#34207278)

I can't run it properly on Linux, Sun or Mac (mono really doesn't work that well. Its a subset at *best*). Its still coorprate controled.

If I am going to stick with a corporate controlled language, why not stick to the one i already have my code in?

Why does "no JCP" == "no Java"? (2, Interesting)

zooblethorpe (686757) | more than 3 years ago | (#34206872)

So assuming the JCP does dissolve, I fail to see why folks couldn't find a way to fork Java. Are there patents in place that would completely moot any such effort? What about clean-room reverse-engineering of the JVM, wouldn't that open some doors?

Confused by the summary's lack of options,

Re:Why does "no JCP" == "no Java"? (3, Informative)

John Hasler (414242) | more than 3 years ago | (#34206942)

Are there patents in place that would completely moot any such effort?

That's what the lawsuit is about, isn't it?

What about clean-room reverse-engineering of the JVM, wouldn't that open some doors?

That only deals with copyright problems. It's irrelevant to patents (And Google claims to have already effectively done it).

Re:Why does "no JCP" == "no Java"? (0)

Kjella (173770) | more than 3 years ago | (#34207004)

I fail to see why folks couldn't find a way to fork Java. Are there patents in place that would completely moot any such effort?

More or less. Some parts of Java are patented, but OpenJDK has been given some kind of grant. With the right amount of FUD from Oracle it'll be such a dark cloud over it that no one with deep pockets will dare pick it up. It'll linger, be used by hobbyists and small companies but eventually die.

Re:Why does "no JCP" == "no Java"? (2, Insightful)

Mongoose Disciple (722373) | more than 3 years ago | (#34207062)

I fail to see why folks couldn't find a way to fork Java.

In this case, I think it's an important to draw a distinction: there's really no reason why you couldn't, except that Oracle will attempt to (right or wrong, and probably wrong) sue whoever tries into bankruptcy.

They'll be able to put a good enough case together that won't initially appear frivolous, even if it would ultimately be doomed to failure with good legal representation, and lawyers aren't generally free.

Re:Why does "no JCP" == "no Java"? (2, Interesting)

andymadigan (792996) | more than 3 years ago | (#34207218)

This may actually be a good thing in the long run. Changes to the language or libraries will likely be delayed, improvements will hopefully be made in the JVM.

This whole situation is basically what open source groups were warning about years ago, but now we have an open JDK. Eventually, one of two things will happen:
1) Oracle maintains control of Java in the enterprise, while an open source group maintains the Java that "everyone else" uses. The two languages will fork, leading both to a slow death.
2) Oracle will fail to keep control of Java, and everyone will end up using Java as maintained by an open source group (probably Apache). Ultimately something like the JCP will still be needed to keep enterprise involved in Java.

As a developer that works primarily in Java, I'm a bit worried. If my company sees Java as being a risk we might end up moving over to .NET, and I just detest the documentation and library design of that platform.

who wrote this?? (1)

vjanicek (1939392) | more than 3 years ago | (#34206884)

quoting: "with .Net offering little advantage, and Perl, Python, and Ruby unable to match Java's performance" ehhm... what? who wrote such ignorant statement? Or was this written in the early 90s where some of those languages did not even exist?

Java's performance (3, Informative)

Dystopian Rebel (714995) | more than 3 years ago | (#34207006)

If Perl, Python, and Ruby are unable to match Java's performance, I'll take their portability, ease of development, lack of overhead and succinctness over Java any day.

Re:Java's performance (1)

Mongoose Disciple (722373) | more than 3 years ago | (#34207096)

If Perl, Python, and Ruby are unable to match Java's performance, I'll take their portability, ease of development, lack of overhead and succinctness over Java any day.

... for some tasks. I'm not arrogant enough to tack that on via FTFY, but really that's what the full statement should be.

Java's currently used for a lot of different things -- the scripting languages are a good fit to replace some, but not all and I wouldn't even really say most, of it.

Re:Java's performance (1)

characterZer0 (138196) | more than 3 years ago | (#34207112)

Portability, ease of development, and succinctness mean nothing if it isn't powerful enough to do what you need to do.

What do you mean by "lack of overhead"? Are you talking about runtime resources, development environments, or the constructs of the languages themselves?

Re:who wrote this?? (1)

Bill, Shooter of Bul (629286) | more than 3 years ago | (#34207058)

Ok, prove it. Benchmark the languages. Java is much faster than any of the existing implementations of those languages that do not run on top of the JVM ( so don't count Jython or Jruby).

Re:who wrote this?? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34207142)

Neil McAllister wrote this (second page of the first link).

ehhm... what? who wrote such ignorant statement?

Care to explain what's wrong with it?

Or was this written in the early 90s where some of those languages did not even exist?

That doesn't make logical sense. You can't list languages that don't exist.

Alternatives (3, Insightful)

Massacrifice (249974) | more than 3 years ago | (#34206888)

It's too bad that some of the most promising new languages (Scala, Clojure) are JDK based. What we need is a modern lingua-de-franca, a language that's structured enough, with modern features, a good standard library, and that doesnt take 10 years to master. Go is still proprietary shite that will bite you after Google turns evil (and you know they will). Havent looked at D yet. Erlang maybe?

Is there any high-level, easy language today that's not threathened somewhow by f%^&%ng patents from the big guys?

Re:Alternatives (1)

Nerdfest (867930) | more than 3 years ago | (#34206972)

I have doubts about debugging an extremely large application done in a purely functional language. Of course, it may just be inexperience.

Re:Alternatives (4, Interesting)

TheTurtlesMoves (1442727) | more than 3 years ago | (#34207144)

Its not harder than a OO lang. However finding good help *is* harder. One reason i had to pick java over the many languages I have used was its reasonably easy to find people who know it. Not so much for Scheme or Haskell.

Re:Alternatives (4, Informative)

Coryoth (254751) | more than 3 years ago | (#34207088)

Is there any high-level, easy language today that's not threathened somewhow by f%^&%ng patents from the big guys?

Well, presuming you want something fast, as opposed to say Python or Ruby, there are some options:

  1. Ada: No, seriously, it's a nice language and Ada2005 is worth looking at; perhaps lower level than you might like. I seriously doubt it faces any patent troubles whatsoever.
  2. D: Sort of C++ done right. Unlikely to face patent issues, but does have some standard library issues with more recent versions of D being incompatible with some standard library efforts.
  3. Eiffel: High level, OO, garbage collection, generics, closures, and still fast and memory efficient. It might have patent issues from ISE, but they're very small, and the core language and IDE are all GPL.

Re:Alternatives (4, Insightful)

characterZer0 (138196) | more than 3 years ago | (#34207146)

We do not need a language-de-franca. We need a virtual-machine-de-franca. Everybody seemed to think that the JVM was it.

Re:Alternatives (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34207176)

Is there any high-level, easy language today that's not threathened somewhow by f%^&%ng patents from the big guys?

Think python fits the bill.

Re:Alternatives (1)

gbjbaanb (229885) | more than 3 years ago | (#34207316)

there's always the 'old, traditional' ways that still work fine - C++ server and javascript in your browser clients.

Plenty of shops use C/C++ components for speed, whilst gluing them together with lua or python. I can't see why that isn't more commonplace... except that it doesn't tie you into a '1 true way' of development that Microsoft and Sun/Oracle has marketed to you.

for clients, nobody (well, none of my customers) really wants thick-clients anymore, and porting them to modern OSs such as iOS or Android is almost a no-go, so a javascript-based HTML5-style GUI would appear to be the way forward.

There's plenty of experience building with these languages, so you wouldn't need to pay up for masses of training and then take a year or two gaining enough experience using them to become halfway good at using them.

Maybe we just need an easy-to-use utility library of C++ stuff for today's attention-defeicit coders who don't want to build their own from the building blocks provided by the usual C/C++ libs :)

Open Source weak spot (2, Interesting)

js3 (319268) | more than 3 years ago | (#34206896)

The open source weak spot has always been the infighting, eventual lawsuits, splitting and renaming, remember that old saying about too many cooks in the kitchen?

Re:Open Source weak spot (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34207008)

If Java were open source, there wouldn't be a need for infighting, eventual lawsuits, splitting and renaming. Oracle's attempt to close it up again is what brought us here in the first place.

Re:Open Source weak spot (1)

TheTurtlesMoves (1442727) | more than 3 years ago | (#34207192)

And yet some OS projects do have much of the same infighting and problems. OS isn't magic, the the big problem here is that folks are trying to assert their "my java" claim early. And if you ask me (and even if you don't), no one is being all that smart about it.

Re:Open Source weak spot (2, Insightful)

Barefoot Monkey (1657313) | more than 3 years ago | (#34207132)

The open source weak spot has always been the infighting, eventual lawsuits, splitting and renaming, remember that old saying about too many cooks in the kitchen?

Exactly the same as with closed source, for exactly the same reasons.

C++0x is not a "company language" (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34206946)

Just sayin'.

Re:C++0x is not a "company language" (1)

Migala77 (1179151) | more than 3 years ago | (#34207208)

It's also vaporware, there is no C++0x standard. There might be a C++1x standard someday.. or C++2x...

Re:C++0x is not a "company language" (1)

TheTurtlesMoves (1442727) | more than 3 years ago | (#34207210)

But its still designed by a committee. ;)

just sayin'

We'll always have OpenJDK (1)

rbanffy (584143) | more than 3 years ago | (#34206956)

We may even codename the next release "Paris"...

Re:We'll always have OpenJDK (1)

characterZer0 (138196) | more than 3 years ago | (#34207160)

We will not always have OpenJDK. Oracle can make changes to the VM spec and refuse to grant patent licenses to anybody else, which would kill OpenJDK.

And of course... (1)

bhunachchicken (834243) | more than 3 years ago | (#34206964)

... the biggest loser in all of this is the customer.

As per fucking usual.

Wishes... (1)

zooblethorpe (686757) | more than 3 years ago | (#34207164)

As per fucking usual.

I wish fucking were more usual in my life.

< ... sigh ... >

Is this what he meant? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34206974)

"'...many developers will be left with few alternatives,' with .Net offering little advantage"

Logically isn't that the same as saying, "...many developers will be left with few alternatives,' however .Net offers some advantage"

Time for C (1)

Murdoch5 (1563847) | more than 3 years ago | (#34206980)

If java gets screwed who care, back to C!

Re:Time for C (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34207234)

I can't envision a reason to use C anymore. Actually the submitter got it wrong. Go isn't meant to replace C++ or Java. It can't. Go was made to replace C. It'll be years before it has the potential to rival the other two.

Re:Time for C (1)

BitZtream (692029) | more than 3 years ago | (#34207254)

I prefer C, it is my language of choice.

Not C++, pure C.

With that said ...
The only way you could get me to use C for a web app is by torturing me or showing me the web app that actually NEEDED to be written in C for performance reasons.

I've yet to run into a web app that needed to be written in C and I work for a company that sells web based software as a service, we've seen a bit of load here and there.

I'm still more than happy to use Java for web apps since that means its just a web app. Its not a Linux/FreeBSD/Windows web app, its a freaking web app.

No premium JDK. Apple contribute their JVM... (2, Informative)

mario_grgic (515333) | more than 3 years ago | (#34207042)

to Open JDK.

http://blogs.sun.com/theaquarium/entry/the_story_of_a_tweet

Basically, the original news about Oracle splitting the JVM to open/free but crippled and premium/fast commercial one were wrong and based on misinterpretation of a tweet.

Apple just today announced they are contributing their java/jvm implementation to the Open JDK project, so there will be JDK for OS X in the future as well.

So, everyone calm down and enjoy JVM + your favourite language (Scala, Clojure or what ever else you like).

Re:No premium JDK. Apple contribute their JVM... (1)

TheTurtlesMoves (1442727) | more than 3 years ago | (#34207248)

We like to bash Oracle too much to let in any of that rational stuff called facts come in to it.

Not to mention most of the posts are !java folks who want run around claiming its was all crap anyway.

Quite frankly all i see is a storm in a tea cup. Much like the opengl 3.0 release. Mostly non opengl programmers were claiming the end of opengl then too.

go? really? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34207078)

go? Python is as big at google as java. Aren't they working on drastic improvements to performance in the python vm? At this point it seems like go is a toy language that a few guys are messing around with in their 20% time. Definitely overblown.

Re:go? really? (1)

icebraining (1313345) | more than 3 years ago | (#34207302)

Yes, there are plenty of projects to speed up Python. Unladen Swallow, Pypy and Psyco, at least.

Why Go? (2, Interesting)

AdmiralXyz (1378985) | more than 3 years ago | (#34207126)

I understand the need to drive page hits by claiming, "In this bad situation $LANGUAGE could step in and fill the void", but Go seems like an odd choice. It's not that I don't like it: I've written some pet projects with it and it's a fascinating language that I doubt I'd mind having to code in as a full-time job, but they're not similar languages at all, it's an apples-and-oranges comparison

Java is interpreted, Go is compiled. Go lacks inheritance, generics, huge backing libraries, and a bunch of other things that Java programmers rely on. Basically, Go is not an application language, it's a systems programming language that happens to have garbage collection; it's closer to a replacement for C++ than one for Java.

In any event, I just don't see people abandoning Java en masse because of this Oracle spat. There's just too much legacy code out there, and too many programmers fluent in Java and nothing else.

OSS should retaliate completely (1)

Junior J. Junior III (192702) | more than 3 years ago | (#34207242)

Every open/free license in existence should be rewritten to exempt Oracle from being able to use the software, or modify it, or any thing else. Let Oracle write their own operating systems, device drivers, web servers, etc. from scratch, with no help at all from open source. Add a provision that Oracle and only Oracle can use the software ONLY if they pay out the ass for it, under terms which mirror Oracle's own licensing. A tit-for-tat approach like this might get them to come around.... oh... sometime after Ellison retires or dies.

The MS playbook (1)

m0s3m8n (1335861) | more than 3 years ago | (#34207266)

To me Oracle's behavior is very reminiscent of MS past behavior. Assimilate and destroy. I see no good coming from anything Oracle touches. I'm looking at you Larry.

Performance my A** (3, Insightful)

Herkum01 (592704) | more than 3 years ago | (#34207284)

Perl, Python, and Ruby unable to match Java's performance

I don't know about Ruby, but Perl has damn good performance, such that it still runs a number of major web sites, including this one. The ONLY reason Java is as popular is because Corporate America loves a corporate solution and Java was being sold as a solution by major vendors(think IBM, Sun and for a while Microsoft).

You cannot really sell Perl, or Python, or Ruby as a corporate solution because they cannot hijack a version, edit it and claim it is special. Hell, Perl runs on EVERYTHING what more can IBM add to it? This is really why good open source languages are neglected by large companies, they cannot charge anything for it.

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