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Paying With the Wave of a Cellphone

timothy posted more than 3 years ago | from the gesticulate-wildly dept.

Businesses 137

holy_calamity writes "Tech Review discusses how it will soon be possible to pay in stores by waving your cellphone over a contactless reader, thanks to new handsets due next year, and RFID stickers and cases offered today by firms including Visa. It's convenient for shoppers, but a major driver of the technology is the opportunity for retailers to gain access to their customers' cellphones and social networks for marketing purposes."

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Old people already use that in Japan (1, Insightful)

BadAnalogyGuy (945258) | more than 3 years ago | (#34279306)

Welcome to the party, round-eyes.

Edy prepaid or iD credit, the Japanese have had this for years.

Re:Old people already use that in Japan (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34279362)

Old people already use that in Japan

Is that because old people know something young people don't?

Re:Old people already use that in Japan (2, Insightful)

elsJake (1129889) | more than 3 years ago | (#34279452)

Or the other way around.

Re:Old people already use that in Japan (1)

delinear (991444) | more than 3 years ago | (#34280124)

Yeah, I can't wait to submit my cell-phone to retailers so they can access details of my social networking activities in order to try and sell me junk. It's not enough that they try and sell me goods and services I don't want when I'm already buying their stuff, now they want to data-mine my phone at the checkout as well.

Re:Old people already use that in Japan (3, Insightful)

cayenne8 (626475) | more than 3 years ago | (#34281498)

I didn't even have to finish reading the synopsis here before clearly thinking:

Not A Chance In Hell

Geez...I don't want identifying RFID's on my tires, clothes, credit cards or passports, why the fsck would I want them for my phone and to actively contribute to corporations data stores on me and my habits?

I still prefer good old cash for most transactions.

Re:Old people already use that in Japan (4, Interesting)

Luckyo (1726890) | more than 3 years ago | (#34279456)

Pretty much this. NFC payment via phones has been one of the main reasons why western style smartphones like iphone have been a complete and utter failure in Japan. If you can't even do basic things like pay for your train ticket with a smartphone, then what good is the smart part?

Imagine an iphone that you couldn't send or receive text messages with. Would you buy it? NFC payments are so widespread there that it's in the same general category in Japan.

Re:Old people already use that in Japan (1)

rrey (1886420) | more than 3 years ago | (#34279524)

A SIM card provider was working (last year, I quit since then) on an antenna you can plug to your SIM card to "upgrade" your phone. It would make any smart phone NFC compliant.

Re:Old people already use that in Japan (4, Informative)

coalrestall (973453) | more than 3 years ago | (#34279542)

On an average commute (the times where you really get to see what phones everybody are using), I'd say anywhere from a third to half of the phones I see people with are iPhones. It's certainly not a failure here, though if it were to be, it wouldn't be the RFID payment thing (which most people don't use because it's damn near impossible to figure out unless you're the sort of person that regularly posts to Slashdot). It would be because it can't handle websites aimed at Japanese phones, by which I mean the vast majority of websites accessed via a QR code printed somewhere which actually go as far as to completely block access to all but regular phone browsers. These sites are a valuable source of games (very bad ones), discount coupons, postage stamp sized pictures of celebrities that you get to set as your background screen for free, and other such wonders which are fantastically important to the phone buying market.

Re:Old people already use that in Japan (1)

gl4ss (559668) | more than 3 years ago | (#34279590)

third to half wouldn't fit with sales numbers, nor any other information coming out of japan.

nfc needs banks and institutions like metro systems to participate for it to be worthwhile, the techs been out there for so long. that is the 'figuring' out part, to just make it work. the close collaboration with tech manufacturers that the japanese telcoms do helps with this.

Re:Old people already use that in Japan (2, Interesting)

coalrestall (973453) | more than 3 years ago | (#34279652)

I would guess a lot of those people playing with iPhones have second phones as well. iPhone is still the second and third best selling phone in Japan at the moment (beaten from first only recently by an Android handset) so again, nothing like a failure. Source: http://www.analytica1st.com/2010/11/japan-best-selling-phones-apple-iphone.html [analytica1st.com] The RFID enabled phones here do actually work quite well. They work on the train systems, convenience stores and news stands, some vending machines, an increasing number of restaurants, not to mention points cards at different stores etc. Additionally they can be used as coupons at places like McDonalds where you enter your discounted order onscreen then wave your phone over the sensor to order it. What makes it hard is that there isn't one universal card system that works everywhere; you have to install lots of different card type applications into the phone and activate each one individually. Thankfully the machines when you scan over them can broadly identify which card to charge, but if the same machine can access your suica card (for trains), your credit card and any of the several other payment option cards you have installed, you have to manually tell it which one to go for, after a bit of a while. You may as well have just gotten the right card out of your wallet in the first place. Oh, and with the exception of credit cards, putting money into the phone's RFID card for services such as Suica is a major hassle.

Re:Old people already use that in Japan (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34279660)

You sure you're counting right?

Last week I was counting phones in a lightly crowded Odakyu line while waiting for departure - there were about 5-6 iphones, several docomo smartphones, and the usual ton of clamshells.

Even if you count all smartphones together, they don't come close to a third.

Maybe next year ;)

Re:Old people already use that in Japan (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34279830)

Also, no possibility of transferring your telephone number/email address via infrared. You can generate a QR code with your info, so while feature phone users can enter the iPhone user's number and email address pretty comfortably, their phones can't generate QR codes, so you still have to enter their phone numbers and email addresses manually.

Re:Old people already use that in Japan (1)

Pete (big-pete) (253496) | more than 3 years ago | (#34279790)

I'm surprised this story is even news, I've had an RFID sticker on my phone for some time now. It is pre-paid and I can opt to receive a text message whenever I use it, so if it's used without authorization I would know immediately: PingPing [pingping.be]

There are also other ways [proximus.be] I can pay with my cellphone.

-- Pete.

Re:Old people already use that in Japan (1)

vegiVamp (518171) | more than 3 years ago | (#34280552)

The pingping project is mostly Belgacom-backed, though; and while there are other businesses, the trial seems to be limited mostly to parkings and Belgacom buildings, from what I see.

Given that I left the group four years ago, I suspect they won't welcome me with open arms if I try to grab lunch in the mess hall. Not that I have much desire to, mind you :-)

Re:Old people already use that in Japan (2, Interesting)

nospam007 (722110) | more than 3 years ago | (#34279942)

"If you can't even do basic things like pay for your train ticket with a smartphone,"

I live in old Europe but I have been paying parking fees, train and bus tickets for years with my phone.
For the trains and buses the phone even _is_ the ticket, just an SMS that you show to the train/bus guy.
And I initiate the payment by sending a single letter as SMS message, completely under my control.

Not just Japan (2, Interesting)

x_IamSpartacus_x (1232932) | more than 3 years ago | (#34280000)

Not just in japan. I submitted a story [slashdot.org] about Malaysia rolling this out over a year and a half ago. Heck, In 2007 [pcworld.com] Wells Fargo started testing a pay-by-phone in the USA. This has been happening in Asia for a long time and coming in the USA for a long time.

Re:Old people already use that in Japan (1)

Hatta (162192) | more than 3 years ago | (#34281158)

Imagine an iphone that you couldn't send or receive text messages with.

You mean an iPod Touch?

Re:Old people already use that in Japan (1)

crossmr (957846) | more than 3 years ago | (#34279798)

and in Korea. It's a surprise the iPhone has been so popular here with all the things it lacks that Koreans were crazy over, like Tmoney (the payment method), DMB receiver for TV, free english/korean dictionaries, etc.
Though given that tmoney is nothing more than a thin wire in a card or dongle, it would be trivial to mount one of these in an iPhone bumper case to duplicate it.

Re:Old people already use that in Japan (1)

peragrin (659227) | more than 3 years ago | (#34281050)

that's just it in America the cell companies won't do anything they can't get 50-75% of the revenue from.

I would love an FM reciever. AT&T has one model phone available with an FM receiver. they have crippled said phone with their own software that can't be removed and six months later it is running a year old OS.( android 2.1) with zero upgrade plans ever. So the first thing one has to do is root the phone to uninstall their software, upgrade the phone to the latest, and then to be secure re lock the phone back down.

Or I could buy a smart from from a vendor that actually cares about customer satisfaction. Of course I still can't find a cell company that cares.

First call (1)

JustOK (667959) | more than 3 years ago | (#34279308)

yah, that couldn't be abused by anyone.

Re:First call (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34279326)

It's not really abuse if the idea was to skullfuck you in the first place, just intended use.

Re:First call (4, Insightful)

mcvos (645701) | more than 3 years ago | (#34279420)

I actually do want RFID capability in my phone. But only if that means I can have a built-in RFID Guardian [rfidguardian.org] .

But giving retailers access to all my contacts? Why the hell would I want to do that?

Re:First call (1)

Errol backfiring (1280012) | more than 3 years ago | (#34279504)

You don't, but when had a customer anything to say about what was a standard feature on his cell phone?

Re:First call (1)

Ihmhi (1206036) | more than 3 years ago | (#34279976)

When he's smart enough to jailbreak it.

Re:First call (2, Interesting)

Errol backfiring (1280012) | more than 3 years ago | (#34280118)

And do a lot of programming. For instance, I cannot remove those stupid facebook, twitter, etc "features" from my N900 because they are in the basic part of it. I am not sure if I even could remove them with a half year dedicated study of the OS and development documentation.

Re:First call (2, Insightful)

shentino (1139071) | more than 3 years ago | (#34280252)

And desperate enough to void the warranty.

And gullible enough to risk having the vendor brick his device on purpose.

Re:First call (1)

Hatta (162192) | more than 3 years ago | (#34281190)

When he chooses which phone to buy, that's when.

Re:First call (1)

Skythe (921438) | more than 3 years ago | (#34279752)

Is it too much of a stretch to say, what about an interface between the RFID and phone for entering a PIN? Or even the machine the RFID is "swiped" to requesting a pin? If it would be as easy as it is nowadays to disable a card, i'd be all down for that. Heck, I've had a friend who lost his debit card and didn't even realize until the bank called him, told him that suspicious stuff was going on and was able to get him all his lost money back and re-issue him with a new card.

Let's just implant RFID chips in our hands (1)

PatPending (953482) | more than 3 years ago | (#34279314)

Let's just implant RFID chips in our hands.

Re:Let's just implant RFID chips in our hands (3, Insightful)

TheLink (130905) | more than 3 years ago | (#34279330)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/3697940.stm [bbc.co.uk]

The night club offers its VIP clients the opportunity to have a syringe-injected microchip implanted in their upper arms that not only gives them special access to VIP lounges, but also acts as a debit account from which they can pay for drinks.

This sort of thing is handy for a beach club where bikinis and board shorts are the uniform and carrying a wallet or purse is really not practical.

Re:Let's just implant RFID chips in our hands (3, Informative)

elsJake (1129889) | more than 3 years ago | (#34279486)

RFID arm band , problem solved and no blood spilled.

Re:Let's just implant RFID chips in our hands (0, Troll)

jolyonr (560227) | more than 3 years ago | (#34279792)

But that wouldn't generate publicity on the BBC website, would it?

Re:Let's just implant RFID chips in our hands (1)

SuricouRaven (1897204) | more than 3 years ago | (#34279934)

Unweildy and unsightly. Watch would work though, or ring.

Re:Let's just implant RFID chips in our hands (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34280350)

But then you can't pretend to be a Jedi by waving your hand and saying "I have paid for my drink".

Mark of the beast! (4, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34279422)

[13:16] And it maketh all, the small, and the great, and the rich, and the poor, and the freemen, and the servants, that it may give to them a mark upon their right hand or upon their foreheads, [13:17] and that no one may be able to buy, or to sell, except he who is having the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. --Revelations 13:16-17, New Testament (Young's Literal Translation) [bible.cc]

I know it's against Slashdot protocol and all to cite religious texts, but if this isn't the prophecy from the Book of Revelation coming true, I don't know what is. I don't know about the rest of you, but the first time they try to inject that thing into my hand, I'm going to cite this religion text and state boldly and unwaveringly that it is against my religion to have an RFID implant. Posted AC because the mere mention of religion here without bashing it poses great risk to karma.

Re:Mark of the beast! (1, Insightful)

mikael_j (106439) | more than 3 years ago | (#34279510)

Personally I don't see the point of just having a dumb RFID chip in me, I'd rather have some smarter tech with some kind of user interface (preferably something a bit more "Ghost in the shell" and not just a keyboard implanted in one wrist and a monitor in the other).

As for religious objections, you're free not to get cyberized (to use a word from GitS) and although I may find your reason for it silly I would probably also refuse simply getting a "dumb" implant that does little more than act as a glorified ID card.

Re:Mark of the beast! (1)

pizzach (1011925) | more than 3 years ago | (#34279582)

As for religious objections, you're free not to get cyberized (to use a word from GitS) and although I may find your reason for it silly I would probably also refuse simply getting a "dumb" implant that does little more than act as a glorified ID card.

Please reply to what the GP actually posted. Their bible quote points out that eventually *everyone* will have to have the "mark" to do transactions. There eventually will be no opting out. You're better off not replying if you aren't going to read what the person whote that you are replying directly to.

Re:Mark of the beast! (3, Insightful)

mikael_j (106439) | more than 3 years ago | (#34279938)

It sounds to me that you're implying that the bible quote is somehow an accurate prediction of the future. I'm having a bit of trouble believing in that. Even if it becomes extremely common (which I doubt).

Also, it's a quote from a collection of fairy tales several thousand years old, hardly an accurate prediction of technological progress or world events.

Re:Mark of the beast! (2, Insightful)

gad_zuki! (70830) | more than 3 years ago | (#34281550)

Exactly. The "mark" fear is based on the idea that a lot of Romans of non-proper birth were locked out of markets and opportunity. It was John's way of saying "Hey, they'll do this to all of us! Down with the Emperor! Christ will come in our lifetime, shut down the Emperor and save us."

Didn't exactly come to pass, but like Nostradamous or whomever, the emotionally unbalanced and credulous hold up these writings as accurate and simply reinterpret everything to fit modern history. When I was a kid Revelation fit in "perfect" with the Iranian revolution and with the lineage of European royal families. Now we're projecting onto RFIDs and IT. In 2050 we'll be projecting onto jetpacks and the founding of Saudi-Israel. Humans are just dumb irrational animals. Religion is proof of this.

Re:Mark of the beast! (4, Insightful)

ultranova (717540) | more than 3 years ago | (#34280358)

Please reply to what the GP actually posted. Their bible quote points out that eventually *everyone* will have to have the "mark" to do transactions. There eventually will be no opting out. You're better off not replying if you aren't going to read what the person whote that you are replying directly to.

Let's assume Bible to be inerrant. Let's also assume that this particular quote was meant as a prediction of future events thousands of years away; there's a pretty strong argument that the whole Book of Revelation was written as a thinly-disguised "fuck you" to the Roman Empire, who had a habit of putting their rulers portraits on their money (so you'd have to take the "image of the beast" into your hand to conduct transactions) and requiring worship of said rulers, and had a ruler (Nero) who had just died but was rumored to be alive and about to return, was commonly considered a beast, and who's name can be read as "666" by a common numerological method of the time, but let's ignore all that.

Even with these assumptions, your argument is illogical. There is no reason to assume that RFID tags really are the fulfilment of a particular prophecy, just because they could be. You certainly can't assume that they are, then use that to "disprove" any counterarguments, for that is begging the question. The GP pointed out that RFID tags seem unlikely to go the way the Mark of the Beast is supposed to; that's evidence that RFID tags are not, in fact, Mark of the Beast, not that they are MotB and a miracle will enforce all the conditionals.

This is why religious arguments usually get modded down: even if you assume that said religion is correct, the arguments themselves tend to be one logical fallacy on top of another, and often completely incoherent.

Re:Mark of the beast! (1)

L4t3r4lu5 (1216702) | more than 3 years ago | (#34279588)

By any chance do you know your Social Security number?

By any chance could you stipulate that in your head is just the same as on your head?

You're already numbered, my friend.

Re:Mark of the beast! (1)

gnapster (1401889) | more than 3 years ago | (#34279680)

I personally know people whose parents who did not register them for an SSN at birth for precisely this reason.

Re:Mark of the beast! (1)

ben0207 (845105) | more than 3 years ago | (#34280344)

Then you know some crazy people.

Re:Mark of the beast! (1)

gnapster (1401889) | more than 3 years ago | (#34280368)

Not ruling that out.

Re:Mark of the beast! (1)

kevorkian (142533) | more than 3 years ago | (#34280794)

Then you also know some people that do not claim there child as a dependent on there tax return.

Re:Mark of the beast! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34279614)

1. "having the mark"
2. "name of the beast"
3. "number of his name"

So, how does an implanted RFID chip add to what is already relevant?
If the 'mark of the beast' is any device that allows for the buying and selling of goods, wouldn't the 'name of the beast' and the 'number of the beast' be a pretty good match for, say, a credit card?

I don't buy into it because I read 'having the mark' to indicate the mark, not just any 'ol mark.

By the way, does anyone know where I could find a depiction of the mark? I think I know the name, and the number, but I'm a little lost on the mark.

Re:Mark of the beast! (1)

SuricouRaven (1897204) | more than 3 years ago | (#34279946)

Why the forehead, though? It's a terrible place for a payment chip.

Re:Mark of the beast! (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34280198)

Why is it against your religion to comply to a prophecy of one of its main prophets? Finally there is a way to prove even some of the stuff is true and you're obstructing it by refusing to give in.

Re:Mark of the beast! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34280628)

Please try to come up with sane arguments against involuntary body modification. Oops, you might have to argue against circumcision, then, too. Cheers!

Re:Mark of the beast! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34280632)

I think we are already at this point. Been here a long time. Pretty much since we all got SSNs over here in the States. I mean you cant really buy or sell anything anymore without a SSN and if that aint "the number of his name" then what is?

Re:Mark of the beast! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34281168)

You think Satan's dumb enough to embark on something that everybody's watching for?

I do not think Revelation talks about what you think it talks about.

Re:Mark of the beast! (2, Interesting)

gad_zuki! (70830) | more than 3 years ago | (#34281502)

Except, you know, context. The whole book was little more than a thinly veiled attack on the Roman authorities. John was very much an anti-establishment character. He was especially critical of the worship of the Emperor as a deity. Not to mention John, like most early Christians, expected all this to happen in his lifetime.

>but the first time they try to inject that thing into my hand

The same "they" that make you carry a cellphone? The same "they" that make you use facebook? If anything you'll be clamoring for the chip our of peer pressure and convenience. It turns out you don't need this mysterious oppressor or 1st conspiracy theories. You just need consumerism and laziness to end up with a chip in your hand. One of the neat things of capitalism is that it gives you enough rope to hang yourself, the trick is not to hang yourself with it.

Re:Mark of the beast! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34281558)

Some eschatology commentaries suggest that the mark is a metaphor for conformity of deeds (right hand) or thought (forehead) to behavior or ideology of the Beast.

With that in mind, I agree with you, and would object to an RFID implant for numerous reasons. More importantly, I (already, daily) strive to reject the Himlerian barrage of beastly ideology, and instead conform my mind to the thoughts and deeds of Jesus Christ.

Yeah, right (4, Insightful)

balaband (1286038) | more than 3 years ago | (#34279316)

Like losing your cellphone wasn't bad enough so far?

Re:Yeah, right (1)

Mr_Silver (213637) | more than 3 years ago | (#34279866)

Like losing your cellphone wasn't bad enough so far?

Worst case, you'll lose between £10 and £15. This is because transactions have two limits, a maximum cumulative amount and a maximum purchase amount.

If someone steals your phone, then they'll be able to make a couple of low value payments. However as soon as they make a payment which is over the purchase amount or they make a number of low value payments and the next one will take them over the cumulative account, then they will need to validate using your PIN. Which they won't have.

Think of it in the same way as losing cash. If you lose £15 then it's gone. The upside to mobile NFC is that as soon as you lose your phone, you can contact your issuer and get the account frozen - potentially before the thief has managed to start spending anything.

Mobile banking (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34279318)

How many transactions will I be doing from my pocket on a crowded subway?

Re:Mobile banking (2, Funny)

Chrisq (894406) | more than 3 years ago | (#34279514)

How many transactions will I be doing from my pocket on a crowded subway?

I don't know but with any luck you will be paying for my porn site subscription and enough credit to download the videos on my anonymous PAYG phone. I might have enough credit left to call uncle Osama too. I don't know which will be worse, explaining to your wife about the porn or to the police about the calls to suspicious people in Afghanistan.

Re:Mobile banking (1)

sjames (1099) | more than 3 years ago | (#34279688)

That depends on how many crooks are out skimming credit card numbers that day.

Eventually, it'll be so easy that when you get scammed your best bet is to go skim some numbers and pay off the bill. It can be the next big bubble! The transactions can just swirl round and round.

Re:Mobile banking (1)

delinear (991444) | more than 3 years ago | (#34280220)

Community cash, everyone just throws £10 into the pot every day and then things that would usually be micro-transactions are just free instead :)

Re:Mobile banking (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34279702)

Obviously there will be a PIN or password you have to enter to authorise transactions.

Re:Mobile banking (1)

delinear (991444) | more than 3 years ago | (#34280230)

I think that's only for transactions over a certain value, otherwise it would be no more convenient than just digging out your credit/debit card.

Re:Mobile banking (2, Interesting)

tophermeyer (1573841) | more than 3 years ago | (#34280858)

I would hope that the user can control that. Personally I think I would prefer to have to explicitly authorize every single transaction.

I think it could be done conveniently though. Either by having the user up an app real quick to enable the RFID chip, or by prompting for a PIN whenever a transaction is attempted.

Re:Mobile banking (1)

balaband (1286038) | more than 3 years ago | (#34280938)

How many transactions my phone will be making from my pocket on a crowded subway?

There, fixed that for you.

and... (4, Insightful)

polle404 (727386) | more than 3 years ago | (#34279324)

And the blackhat standing by the exit door with a 50$ RFID-reader gets my account as well.
They're gonna need some very hefty security measures to get me on that bandwagon, thankyouverymuch!

"but a major driver of the technology is the opportunity for retailers to gain access to their customers' cellphones and social networks for marketing purposes."
Is NOT helping in convincing me.

I don't want a facebook/twitter update of what I bought and where, every time I shop.

Re:and... (4, Insightful)

CharmElCheikh (1140197) | more than 3 years ago | (#34279462)

And the blackhat standing by the exit door with a 50$ RFID-reader gets my account as well.

I work at a company who works on the cellphone side of the thing. It's been part of the specs since the first drafts that transfers require a manual validation (press a button) to occur. Did you really think you were the first to think of that.

Re:and... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34279506)

And we all live in a perfect world where people never accidentally press buttons, or press "OK" without reading the message, or lose their phones, or implement software with vulnerabilities, or...

Re:and... (1)

sjames (1099) | more than 3 years ago | (#34279708)

Of course not, but that hasn't exactly stopped visa cards and U.S. passports from plowing ahead. We're all too painfully aware that cell providers just love to turn good phones into crap.

Re:and... (1)

DarwinSurvivor (1752106) | more than 3 years ago | (#34279772)

Ok, and how do you KNOW that "ok" button is for the store and not the person at the door? I don't see the point of using RFID tags that have been shown over and over to be insecure when the could simply us the GSM network with a dedicated security layer (SSL?) overtop. And in case anyone suggests having the phone ask which information you would like to share, I'd just like to point out how well THAT worked for facebook when every thing demands everything.

Re:and... (1)

polle404 (727386) | more than 3 years ago | (#34280468)

Oh, I'm certain I'm not the first to think of that, but if the Windows security model has taught me anything, it's that people will blindly click anything to get to the goodies (in this case phonecall/Angry Birds/txtservice) underneath, and I believe that this will extend to smart-phones as well.

Putting a PIN on there might help a little, but the whole RFID still strikes me as just a bit too immature to trust it with financial transactions just yet.

Re:and... (1)

tophermeyer (1573841) | more than 3 years ago | (#34280876)

if the Windows security model has taught me anything, it's that people will blindly click anything to get to the goodies

Yeah, I think that is the single greatest weakness at this point.

The phones might be smart, but there is no guarantee that the user is.

Re:and... (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34279476)

Or you just put in an activation button, or put a password on each transaction, or put a password on certain transactions (to short time between, or too large amount, or in the wrong GPS area or whatever you can think off).

Personally I agree though that if you make it too convenient to use it will be easy to attack. So you have to make it less convenient to use (need to hold button on phone while swiping and need to type password if amount is over 20 USD etc.) and then suddenly you have a system that is only marginally better than a chip+pin solution.

Good thin about electronic money is that they are traceable, so if a badguy steals your electronic money at least he will be caught (not that that helps you if he's a destitute yunkie). The bad thing is that the goverment (and probably private companies) will have a perfect paper trail of your life.

Re:and... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34279534)

And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

Re:and... (1)

delinear (991444) | more than 3 years ago | (#34280282)

Am I just mad that I tend to think, if I have to enter a password to be able to use this, I'd rather not have it and just carry on using my traditional cards (since they already work on a "password" basis), and in turn the phones will be cheaper to produce and I won't have to go through nonsense setting this up every time I buy a new phone?

Re:and... (1)

panaceaa (205396) | more than 3 years ago | (#34280020)

The security problem is easy: How about your phone just asks you whether you accept the charges, and you click "Yes". Of course there will always be fraud wherever there's money, but such a confirmation system seems much more secure than existing US-style credit cards.

And you should have more faith in humanity that FB updates won't automatically go out whenever you buy something. We've learned that's a bad idea. But maybe people can choose specific purchases to publicize... like if you buy concert tickets, that'd be fun to have friends know. But the mass market would never install something that broadcasts every purchase; they'd just stick to credit cards instead.

Re:and... (1)

Trollificus (253741) | more than 3 years ago | (#34280126)

"I don't want a facebook/twitter update of what I bought and where, every time I shop."

Strangely enough, I know enough people who do this by themselves. A Cousin of mine can't even stop for gas without posting about it on his facebook page along with a few cell phone pictures of his car, the station and surrounding area. It's ridiculous what kind of information people will willingly give up for the sake of social networking novelty.

Re:and... (3, Insightful)

drsmithy (35869) | more than 3 years ago | (#34280280)

It's ridiculous what kind of information people will willingly give up for the sake of social networking novelty.

Personally I find the narcissism of social networking *far* more ridiculous than the "giving up information part".

Though I imagine the two are linked - "I know I'm not important enough for anyone to give a shit about me, but maybe if I tell the whole world everything I do, I can pretend they all want to know, and the conclude that I'm actually giving something up by broadcasting everything from what's on TV to the consistency of my stool".

Re:and... (1)

Syberz (1170343) | more than 3 years ago | (#34280606)

Japan has had this payment method for almost everything for years, I wonder how they handle security?

Über encryption of your transaction info in all smartphones and used women's underwear vending machines (I'm not kidding, they really do have those in Japan)?

Re:and... (1)

andrea.sartori (1603543) | more than 3 years ago | (#34281402)

You don't even need a blackhat to ruin your own day. You are in front of a used car retailer. You are sending a SMS to somebody. You see a friend of yours on the other side of the street. You wave at him...

Why a cellphone? (3, Insightful)

srussia (884021) | more than 3 years ago | (#34279384)

My bank already issued me an RFID-fitted credit card... which I don't use.

Re:Why a cellphone? (1)

teh kurisu (701097) | more than 3 years ago | (#34279886)

Mine too (a debit card in my case), although you'll probably find that it's a contactless smart card [wikipedia.org] , not RFID.

I would get rid of it entirely, but it's my ATM card as well so I kinda need it.

I'm thinking about moving to another bank. Bank of Scotland have done nothing but piss me off recently.

Dreaming. (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34279390)

We can't even get chip-based cards fully deployed universally let alone this.

Re:Dreaming. (1)

Andy Dodd (701) | more than 3 years ago | (#34281266)

Part of it being they seem pointless.

The range is so short and the delay so long with contactless that it's faster to just swipe the card than to tap it for me.

BitCoin (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34279416)

Automatically converting Bitcoins to USD, when making a purchase in store.

We have been able to do this in Japan for a while (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34279438)

http://www.edy.jp/howto/index.html

Even on iPhone with a special case:

http://www.edy.jp/recommend/iphone/index.html

It already exists (1)

rrey (1886420) | more than 3 years ago | (#34279496)

It already exists, in France in Nice. Project was launched last summer in production. It requires both SIM card and mobile compliant with NFC technology (Near Field Communication). But it's the very beginning, mobile constructors don't provide any list of devices compliant yet. You need to be very close to the terminal to have the transaction initiate, no way you can have it done from your pocket. And everything can be locked by your operator in no time OTA (over the air) if you loose your phone. For the moment, this service is provided by your bank, it's not available in the services of your mobile operator ... yet.

Re:It already exists (4, Insightful)

lingon (559576) | more than 3 years ago | (#34279560)

The "no way you can have it done from your pocket" only applies for zero gain antennas. The black hat standing at the exit point, or better yet, in the van some meters away with a high gain parabolic antenna would tend to disagree.

Re:It already exists (1)

rrey (1886420) | more than 3 years ago | (#34279594)

I don't have much knowledge on antenna stuff .. but there is as well a notion of validation on handset side. And the black hat would have to hack the server side of the whole solution, there is a list of allowed resellers you are allowed to use the service with.

Store loyalty cards... (2, Funny)

VShael (62735) | more than 3 years ago | (#34279554)

are also "a benefit" to the customer, in terms of discounts. But again, your giving your data to the shop and anyone else they pass it to.

I don't use loyalty cards, I won't use this. If they want my data, let them break the law to get it, just like the government does.

Stick money to your phone? (1)

Issity (1625919) | more than 3 years ago | (#34279572)

If RFID chip is on sticker why put it on mobile phone? You could just have small card in your wallet.

> "People typically have their phone much closer to hand, so I think they are more ready to pay,"
> he explains. "For example, many women put their cards at the bottom of their purse for security,
> but keep their phone at the very top for easy access."

Won't they start to put phone at the bottom of the bag for security?

And what if someone device looking like anti-theft gate, which in fact deducts money from all RFID cards passing by?
Some banks in Poland are issuing RFID debit cards, which require no authorization for payments lower than 50PLN ($17 or 12).

Wave of cellphone and... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34279642)

These are not the Visas you're looking for.

Why RFID? (1)

CobaltBlueDW (899284) | more than 3 years ago | (#34279800)

Cellphones already support wifi, bluetooth etc., why not simply combined WiFi and paypal, into a smartphone-app to pay for things? (assuming you don't hate paypal)

If a store wants to support cellphone purchasing, they don't need new RFID scanners and service fees, they just need a wireless router, and a corresponding app to handle the smartphone-app's transnational messages. ( patent pending ;P )

Re:Why RFID? (1)

zebslash (1107957) | more than 3 years ago | (#34279936)

I guess that you would not want to be able to "wave" a payment over 100 meters, but only on close proximity scanners. Anyway, they need to implement this really well to prevent fraud. Waht could possibly go wrong? :)

Look on the plus side (1)

goldaryn (834427) | more than 3 years ago | (#34279914)

I for one will be saving money though this scheme

"This isn't the Android you are looking for"

You can do it now. (1)

windcask (1795642) | more than 3 years ago | (#34280182)

Just duck tape your fastpay credit card to the back of your phone. Presto!

Re:You can do it now. (1, Insightful)

zmollusc (763634) | more than 3 years ago | (#34280406)

Don't be ridiculous. I will wait until the apple store offers to duct tape it on for me for $50. They will use special apple duct tape that is SO much better than ordinary plebeian duct tape.

Can I hack the store display? (1)

Uzik2 (679490) | more than 3 years ago | (#34280352)

So it charges everyone who walks by and sends the money to me instead of the store?

Not to mention (1)

Ryanrule (1657199) | more than 3 years ago | (#34280546)

A cut of every single transaction for the phone company. The question is, do the phone companies buy out the credit card companies, or vice versa?

A bit sensationalist, from someone who HAS an RFID (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34280630)

Hmm I have an RFID enabled phone, they are the norm here in Japan. I let one app access it (The Mobile Suica train pass app), and can charge it like that. I can then ride the train, or use it at 7-11, etc. To buy stuff. It's a payment method, and that's all I want it to be. The stores don't get my phone number, email, or anything else.

If people want their purchases broadcasted on facebook, fine, but I don't think most people will. Wen if the texhnology that wins out in the US allows it, it would hardly require it, if they want it to be taken seriously.

what (2, Interesting)

fishingmachine (1363025) | more than 3 years ago | (#34280892)

so let me get this straight, you can only do it at certain retailers, with certain phones, there is a very small spending limit, it either a. charges with no notification posing obvious security risks or b. requires confirmation on the phone. while sharing your personal information with the retailer and marketers. can someone remind me how exactly this is more convenient than cash or credit card in any way at all?

Passport or Bank Account (1)

SumterLiving (994634) | more than 3 years ago | (#34281152)

Seems like a few years ago the RFID in US passports was considered a big-brother invasion of privacy. And now that there is an "i" product that can access all your info in your iPhone, this is totally cool, bitchin and acceptable? Yes I need to get a real life. How much do I have to pay to have every store and my government to have access to some/most of my life while I walk down a street? I'd gladly pay $1,200 a year for that privilege....wouldn't you?
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