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The Pirate Bay Co-Founder Starting P2P-DNS

CmdrTaco posted more than 3 years ago | from the whacamole-is-fun dept.

The Internet 309

An anonymous reader writes "The Pirate Bay Co-Founder, Peter Sunde, has started a new project which will provide a decentralized p2p based DNS system. This is a direct result of the increasing control which the US government has over ICANN. The project is called P2P-DNS and according to the project's wiki, this is how the project is described: 'P2P-DNS is a community project that will free internet users from imperial control of DNS by ICANN. In order to prevent unjust prosecution or denial of service, P2P-DNS will operate as a distributed and less centralized service hosted by the users of DNS. Temporary substitutes, (as Alpha and Beta developments), are being made ready for deployment. A network with no centralized points of failure, (per the original design of the internet), remains our goal. P2P-DNS is developing rapidly.'"

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309 comments

I love the idea, (5, Insightful)

pecosdave (536896) | more than 3 years ago | (#34403318)

But there is so, so much potential for spammers to kill it before it gets out of the gate good. Spammers so far have killed quite a large number of things that used to be cool on the internet and they're not going to stop until they're reigned in or nobody uses anything electronic anymore because of them.

Re:I love the idea, (5, Insightful)

fuzzyfuzzyfungus (1223518) | more than 3 years ago | (#34403502)

I'd be more concerned by advertisers/audience tracker types than spammers(though, it is true, the botnet herders probably have enough hosts that, barring clever design, all domain names will point to h3rbal v15gra...)

There was a story a while back, I think it hit slashdot, about a university research group that set up a bugged tor node in order to explore that network. Because, unlike most of the idealists and tinfoil hats running tor nodes, they had a 100Mb symmetric line or something equally punchy, they had become the exit node of choice for some alarming percentage of the system by the end of their study.

Similarly, in the classic P2P scenarios, there are usually a few super seeders on University or colo connections, who end up moving a surprising percentage of the total traffic; because their connections are markedly better(and have basically 100% uptime compared to all the casual kids. Even when the casual kids actually introduce the material to the swarm, much of it ends up moving through the big guys.

I would imagine, again barring careful design(which would be tricky; because speed is of the essence with DNS lookups, unless you want your experience to suck), that it would be fairly trivial for google, Phorm, Neilson(if they aren't still living in the 19th century), or the like to set up a few P2P DNS servers that, for a few hundred bucks a month per geographic region, are by far the most responsive and fastest in the area(basic dual-socket 1u colo box on a gigabit line, we aren't talking crazy money here) which would give them near-ISP level of insight into where users of the P2P DNS are going...

Re:I love the idea, (1)

pecosdave (536896) | more than 3 years ago | (#34403572)

You know, that MySpace bunch over there has tons of server power and bandwidth they're not using for anything anymore. It scares me to think of what would happen if they seized the opportunity to put it to use.

Re:I love the idea, (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34403700)

Spammers are why we can't have nice things.

Re:I love the idea, (2)

colordev (1764040) | more than 3 years ago | (#34403886)

Count me in. I loved the internet when it was the new 'wild west'. With good PLANNING this project can become a great success that will _host_ great sites like Wikileaks! I would prefer...

(BEGIN of prior art to patent buster) a filesharing system and a device arrangement which is K N O W N for being a scalable anonymous encrypted distributer filesharing- network with properties of distributed webserver environment, where each user might be allowed to upload an amount of new file-data, that may be related to the amount of file-data which that particular user has mediated before to one or more of the other users of that p2p-cloud server computer system, of which that users computer may be part of. (END of prior art to patent buster)

when can I have one?

Re:I love the idea, (2, Interesting)

colordev (1764040) | more than 3 years ago | (#34404096)

Sorry, forgot the word "onion-routed" *blush*

(BEGIN of prior art to patent buster) a filesharing system and a device arrangement which is K N O W N for being a scalable anonymous onion-routed encrypted distributed filesharing- network with properties of distributed webserver environment, where each user might be allowed to upload an amount of new file-data, that may be related to the amount of file-data which that particular user has mediated before to one or more of the other users of that p2p-cloud server computer system, of which that users computer may be part of. (END of prior art to patent buster)

Violence is the answer. (4, Funny)

Lilith's Heart-shape (1224784) | more than 3 years ago | (#34403978)

If spammers are such a problem, then we just need a distributed final solution to the spammer question. I recommend the new German microwave ovens; they seat five thousand.

Re:Violence is the answer. (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34404364)

I thought they seat over nine thousand!

Re:I love the idea, (1)

mcgrew (92797) | more than 3 years ago | (#34404022)

I've never seen spam on BitTorrent. Why would a P2P DNS be any different? If this is engineered and implimented intelligently, spam will not be a problem with it.

Re:I love the idea, (1)

pecosdave (536896) | more than 3 years ago | (#34404098)

You obviously haven't used BitTorrent, at least not years ago when I did. There were lots of results that would turn up claiming to be the exact whatever file name you were looking for. Usually they ended in .exe - my systems are compatible with that file type. Occasionally it would be an HTML file with redirects to the site they were "advertising" for.

Re:I love the idea, (1)

pecosdave (536896) | more than 3 years ago | (#34404110)

Doh! My systems ARE NOT compatible with that file type.

Re:I love the idea, (2)

DarkOx (621550) | more than 3 years ago | (#34404240)

Sorry we caught you, you are using Windows. Its okay really you don't have to be ashamed; there are lots of people out there just like you.

Re:I love the idea, (1)

xtracto (837672) | more than 3 years ago | (#34404222)

That could be challenged by including some kind of "peer reputation" system within the protocol

Re:I love the idea, (1)

Eraesr (1629799) | more than 3 years ago | (#34404358)

I'm surprised that e-mail spam is still considered to be a profitable marketing option. The amount of spam that's not filtered out my ISP or e-mail provider's spam guard is extremely small and are there really still people who are dumb to click v14gr4 links?

Re:I love the idea, (1)

mark72005 (1233572) | more than 3 years ago | (#34404454)

I wonder about this too.

I believe there are plenty of old people who are too dumb to realize they are being taken in on the Nigerian scams. I believe there are plenty of people dumb enough to open email attachments.

I still can't believe there are people dumb enough to fall for those spam emails. Especially pharmaceuticals... who would put medicine they bought from a spam email into their body?

Good luck with that. (4, Insightful)

Skarecrow77 (1714214) | more than 3 years ago | (#34403322)

When you violate US copyright law, the feds really just kinda laugh and say "ok, sure, whatever."
When you try and prevent the US government from taking over something they've set their sights on dominating, they're a whole other kind of aggressive beast.

watch your back dude...

Re:Good luck with that. (1)

Haedrian (1676506) | more than 3 years ago | (#34403334)

Up Next - "The Pirate Bay Co-Founded killed in mysterious accident"

Re:Good luck with that. (5, Insightful)

vlm (69642) | more than 3 years ago | (#34403400)

Up Next - "The Pirate Bay Co-Founded killed in mysterious accident"

Accused of rape in a friendly foreign country, more likely.

Re:Good luck with that. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34403772)

don't they have hate speech laws in that country?

He's Swedish (1)

mangu (126918) | more than 3 years ago | (#34403972)

Accused of rape in a friendly foreign country, more likely.

He's Swedish. He doesn't need to travel anywhere to be accused of rape.

Re:Good luck with that. (1)

sakdoctor (1087155) | more than 3 years ago | (#34403416)

"The Pirate Bay Co-Founder ... and alleged rapist ... has started a new project which will provide a decentralized p2p based ..."

Re:Good luck with that. (1)

Issarlk (1429361) | more than 3 years ago | (#34403570)

Better make it "child rapist" to offset the sympathy the Pirate Bay Co-Founder must enjoy with public opinion.

Re:Good luck with that. (3, Interesting)

Barefoot Monkey (1657313) | more than 3 years ago | (#34403958)

"The Pirate Bay Co-Founder ... and alleged rapist ... has started a new project which will provide a decentralized p2p based ..."

That should be a new meme. Simply put "an alleged rapist" after every reference to anyone at all, until that particular vector of character assassination becomes meaningless.

It's important to ensure that your subject actually is an alleged rapist though - otherwise you're just being inaccurate and libellous. The trick is to tell someone (a friend sitting next to you at the time will do) that the subject is a rapist, thus permanently transforming the subject into an alleged rapist even if the person you told is fully aware of the meme. It's safe to then clarify that the subject is not actually a rapist, since there is no such thing as "a formerly-alleged rapist".

This idea is inspired by Godwin (an alleged rapist) and his well-known counter-meme, Godwin's Law.

Re:Good luck with that. (1, Insightful)

Arancaytar (966377) | more than 3 years ago | (#34403748)

As long as they haven't tried to kill Assange, Sunde is probably safe. There are people the US government hates far more than the Pirate Bay.

(Unless, of course, the RIAA decides to start hiring... private contractors.)

Re:Good luck with that. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34403962)

"As long as they haven't tried to kill Assange..."

What makes you think they haven't tried (or aren't in the process of)?

Re:Good luck with that. (1)

guruevi (827432) | more than 3 years ago | (#34404268)

Blackwater (now Xe "Services") wouldn't even blink while doing it. They didn't blink at doing the dirty work in Somalia in their "take no prisoners" pirate hunting for rich multinational companies and the US Gov.

Re:Good luck with that. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34403472)

Great idea but as the parent said:
Watch your back...

Re:Good luck with that. (1)

fuzzyfuzzyfungus (1223518) | more than 3 years ago | (#34403648)

I suspect that all but the most techno-clueless-my-gun-is-a-penile-prosthesis fed types are yawning right now. Alternate DNS schemes(albeit typically based on exactly the same tech as conventional DNS, just with different root servers) have been around for years, often as part of an attempt to squat on TLDs that ICANN hasn't approved yet, and all have foundered for lack of adoption. Less dramatically, it is totally unsurprising, and quite common, to encounter all sorts of odd setups inside corporate and institutional networks. The local institutional DNS servers are commonly both lying about certain registered domains(why yes, facebook.com is located at 127.0.0.1, their servers must be down...) and providing valid responses to totally unregistered stuff(printers, network scanners, etc.) that isn't reachable from the outside and thus has no need to be consistent with the global DNS hierarchy.

The feds have been tolerating FreeNet for years, despite the empirical fact that it is so slow and irritating to use that it is largely kiddie porn, a dash of copyright infringement, and a few idealists. It just isn't a threat. Similarly, any Fed who hasn't been hitting the CIA LSD stash while watching old James Bond films and channeling the spirit of ol' Joe McCarthy, american hero, will realize that a project of this sort is A) unlikely to succeed. B) going to get streisanded all to hell if its founder dies in a mysterious falling down three flights of stairs and hitting his head on three rounds to center mass and one to the head accident and C) likely to have some network signature that will actually making locating the paranoids, pirates, and general naer'do'wells easier than it would otherwise be...

Re:Good luck with that. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34404296)

...a mysterious falling down three flights of stairs and hitting his head on three rounds to center mass and one to the head accident...

Center mass is basically the torso; unless the three rounds you're referring to were made by the same company that manufactured the magic bullet that killed Kennedy, it's either 3 to the body and 1 to the head, or 4 to the head, no center mass.

Re:Good luck with that. (1)

fuzzyfuzzyfungus (1223518) | more than 3 years ago | (#34404396)

It was an intended(perhaps botched) joke. There is a phrase "He tripped and hit is head on a bullet", used colloquially to describe an absurdly suspicious death that is officially accidental. Similarly "three rounds to center mass, one to the head" is obviously impossible to hit your head on; but is intended to suggest an "accident" carried out by well drilled individuals who want to be very sure, not just some junkie doing it for $50 and a dimebag.

Re:Good luck with that. (1)

funkyloki (648436) | more than 3 years ago | (#34404442)

When you violate US copyright law, the feds really just kinda laugh and say "ok, sure, whatever."

The Feds seized 82 domains related to trafficking in counterfeit goods, one of those being a torrent site. They are trying to pass ACTA, a copyright treaty that would circumvent a nation's own laws. They are trying to pass COICA which is in the Congress right now. The DMCA, ever hear of it? The RIAA and the MPAA are trying to make the DoJ their own legal enforcement department. Yeah, the Feds just don't care about copyright law.

Been Tried... (4, Interesting)

nweaver (113078) | more than 3 years ago | (#34403330)

This has been tried, several times. With the same problems popping up again and again.

Such as "The DNS is a hierarchical namespace, P2P type controls work only for flat namespaces. Yet generally people like hierarchical namespaces."

and "Without a good notion of cryptographic trust, you're doomed in a P2P setting. And if you think a PKI is hard to get right...".

Re:Been Tried... (-1)

contra_mundi (1362297) | more than 3 years ago | (#34403412)

Flying was also tried time and a time again, but eventually humans flew.

Re:Been Tried... (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34403724)

Flying was also tried time and a time again, but eventually humans flew.

While seemingly insightful at first blush, that comment is useless. Of course some difficult problems can eventually be solved. That's a big duh-four, good buddy.

Re:Been Tried... (1)

Dachannien (617929) | more than 3 years ago | (#34403852)

Flying was also tried time and a time again, but eventually humans flew.

And eventually, some people realized the implications of commercialized flight and started blowing up planes or crashing them into buildings. But I'm sure we'll solve that problem eventually, too, won't we?

(Hint for the analogically dense.... flying : P2P DNS :: blowing up planes : exploiting gaping security holes fundamental to the P2P philosophy in order to reroute traffic to a desired destination for nefarious purposes)

Re:Been Tried... (1)

nschubach (922175) | more than 3 years ago | (#34404106)

If we decided to kill all plans because someone further down the line might use such technology for nefarious purposes... we'd still be living in caves and eating whatever is lying around. I mean, why use sharpened rocks or sticks that could possibly be used to hurt someone?

So let's keep trying (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34403430)

A completely decentralized internet would be nothing less than the holy grail of communications. So let's try to support those who strive for this noble goal. A centralized network, no matter how "democratic", is ultimately founded on political power, and I certainly don't have to explain why political power can't be trusted.

Re:Been Tried... (3, Interesting)

vlm (69642) | more than 3 years ago | (#34403454)

>Such as "The DNS is a hierarchical namespace, P2P type controls work only for flat namespaces. Yet generally people like hierarchical namespaces."

Its the other way around, people generally hate hierarchical namespaces.

Outside the US, the whole "co.uk" type thing is tolerated, not enjoyed. Inside the US, the unwashed masses are completely mystified by *.state.us addresses to the point that they are mostly unused, with domains like "cityname.com" or "schoolname.org" as the modern preferred choice. Also "AOL keywords" have been replaced by "www.facebook.com/whatever". You see, each step in the edu/gov/us hierarchy contains a nearly impenetrable bureaucracy, but registering a ".com" at godaddy just takes 5 minutes and a credit card...

Re:Been Tried... (5, Interesting)

werfu (1487909) | more than 3 years ago | (#34403482)

Then go flat namespace. Why do we really need hierarchical namespace? I mean, people don't bother if its .com, .net or .org. Its a convention. Anyway, most people now protect their domain name by buying other domain suffix. Or like my mom that has google as her start page, and enter the url she wants to go directly into the google search textbox then press search. IMO domain suffix are overrated and provide more bloat to the net than it does good. Just look at the mess the .co domain is doing. A lot of domain scammers have already taken well known domains to make moneys from people entering things like hotmail.co. If there was no domain suffix, you would simply enter gmail and then get to gmail. Who cares about country anyway on the net.

Re:Been Tried... (1)

Captain Hook (923766) | more than 3 years ago | (#34403952)

You've just wiped out a vast amount of the namespace available because it's no longer possible to have the same domainname in different domains.

Re:Been Tried... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34404186)

Your comment is so idiotic it deserves a reply. Far from "wiping out" anything, a flat DNS would permit lots of domain names that are not allowed at this time. But of course, you're thinking like the stupid little internet "merchant" you are, who got a hold of, say, wettshirts.info and is scared that a flat DNS system would no longer permit him to mooch off the abundant google-juice of wettshirts.com.

Re:Been Tried... (0)

xtracto (837672) | more than 3 years ago | (#34404274)

Blah... as sibling said, your comment does not make sense.

With a flat namespace you could have among others
my-shitty-spamsite.a
my-shitty-spamsite.b
my-shitty-spamsite.aaaa
my-shitty-spamsite.a
my-shitty-spamsite.com
my-shitty-spamsite|com

The idea is that the dot would not have any semantic meaning within the name.

The TLDs are a baggage from the prehistoric internet era when the internet was just starting and researchers thought the World Wide Web would be an ordered place (put all commercial under a .com, all NGOs and similar under org, all education under edu, etc). Nowadays you have all kind of sites under all type of subdomains... the conventions do not makes sense.

Re:Been Tried... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34404494)

Not necessarily; just eliminate ownership of names all together. As an added benefit, you no longer have to worry about squatters, prospecting, disputes, theft, and so forth. Trust needs to be verified anyways, and it is an orthogonal problem. Just as long as you know you are connected to the site you want, it doesn't matter if there are a thousand more.

Re:Been Tried... (1)

Steeltoe (98226) | more than 3 years ago | (#34404390)

A distributed system can of course support a hierarchical namespace. If you need .com or .org, just tie it with the name-string, if required.

The issue with P2P-DNS is that it is inherently insecure, since any peer can be a potential hijacker. So you never know if the IP receieved is the real IP, or a hijacked IP with spoofed websites and services and all.

This can be mitigated by generating false DNS requests indistingushable from the real ones (no Tor's method is not there yet), and generating a web-of-trust of trustworthy peers.

However, for people requiring true anonymity, this can be less of a threat than being tortured and brought to final silence, which is why Tor already supports P2P DNS. I believe they route the requests to the exitnodes, for extra "safety", although if the exitnode is compromised or hostile, that can bring problems.

Another issue is who will have authority to allocate new names, and there hierarchy can bring problems as well.

I believe I2P has already solved the issue with its eepsites and tunnels. It does require a competely dark net like I2P though, since exitnodes are inherently untrustworthy and hierarchical in nature.

Re:Been Tried... (1)

Cyberax (705495) | more than 3 years ago | (#34403592)

"Such as "The DNS is a hierarchical namespace, P2P type controls work only for flat namespaces. Yet generally people like hierarchical namespaces"

You just need to keep one level (second-level domains' glue) in DNS. Then the usual recursive nature of DNS can take over.

Reliable PKI is a problem. But it can be fixed, somewhat, using distributed key registries and reputation systems.

Re:Been Tried... (2, Insightful)

bluefoxlucid (723572) | more than 3 years ago | (#34403942)

Right, a P2P decentralized DNS would need to rely on date-stamped, signed DNS entries with hierarchy control. Who owns slashdot.org? Does it DNS? No? Okay, find entries. Oh, here's several, but this one's outdated, and these three are newer than this still valid one signed by someone else. Well then that one should be valid. Okay, so the same entity should be signing *.slashdot.org entries... see?

It already works (2, Interesting)

Steeltoe (98226) | more than 3 years ago | (#34404246)

Yet Tor supports DNS out of the box with just a quick option in torrc:
DNSPort 51

Set your DNS-host on all interfaces to localhost, removing everything else, and off you go.. Anonymous DNS.

Yes, it's slow, it often fails and the system can be tricked to produce false IPs, although there are some simple measurements against it. However, if you want anonymity from dedicated adversaries, it's crucial to know how to properly hide DNS lookups. If anonymity is important to you, the suckiness will matter less to you.

For most of us, it's too insecure and overkill, but for some, it's a viable option since the alternatives can mean torture and death.

I'm sure it is possible to improve on this considerably. You will never reach 100% security, but it can become tolerable for private usage.

The greatest accomplishments were never easy.

Re:Been Tried... (1)

nhaehnle (1844580) | more than 3 years ago | (#34404488)

I don't think people - as in, non-Slashdot visiting users - care one bit for hierarchical namespaces. The only thing that the system has to offer them is

1. The ability to click on links on websites and have them work.

2. The ability to type in an URL that they saw in an advertisment, magazine, or other off-line source.

Note that neither of these tasks requires a hierarchical namespace, and only the second task requires a centrally controlled namespace. On top of that, that second ability may be becoming increasingly irrelevant, giving search engines, 2D barcodes, etc.

There is, in fact, a useful way forward that would be any crypto-nerd's dream by reducing the importance of DNS and ridding the world of the mess that is SSL chains of trust at the same time. Forget about a decentrally controlled name space (that is totally unrealistic), but encourage people to use public-key based links. The idea is that - except for task 2 above - we would use hyperlinks that contain public key hashes (or even entire public keys). A decentralized lookup system would map public key hashes to IPs, and upon connection to the given IP, your browser/mail-client/whatever could directly verify whether the server was trusted, because you could verify whether it owns the correct private key.

Such a system cannot solve task 2 above, but a world with the outlined public key based server lookup, combined with a mostly vestigial centrally controlled namespace system that maps names to public keys could work, and it could even work pretty well.

The only problem is that I can see no natural path that takes us from where we are today towards that ideal world. Oh well.

Cool (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34403332)

Though they didn't even shut down wikileaks yet..

The ultimate in decentralization: (2)

John Hasler (414242) | more than 3 years ago | (#34403354)

hosts files.

Re:The ultimate in decentralization: (4, Funny)

maxume (22995) | more than 3 years ago | (#34403684)

All you have to do now is automate the process of updating it.

You could have some sort of program that acted both as a client and a server...

Re:The ultimate in decentralization: (2)

John Hasler (414242) | more than 3 years ago | (#34403810)

And we could use recursion to distribute the files. We could call the levels of recursion "domains" and we'd anchor the whole thing to some sort of a "root"...

I've written such a program, as have others (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34404114)

"All you have to do now is automate the process of updating it. You could have some sort of program that acted both as a client and a server..." - by maxume (22995) on Wednesday December 01, @09:23AM (#34403684)

Examples of what you're asking for have been done (I've done one myself even), but here are some "examples thereof":

HOSTSMAN:

http://www.abelhadigital.com/hostsman [abelhadigital.com]

HOSTESS:

http://www.raymarron.com/hostess/ [raymarron.com]

I am FAIRLY sure those do "remote updates", but check to be sure...

(and, there ARE others too, but that's what I came up with on "short-notice" - I *think* mvps.org possibly even has one with the HOSTS file they distribute)

OR

You can just go to these sites & get current copies:

https://zeustracker.abuse.ch/blocklist.php?download=hostfile [abuse.ch]
http://www.mvps.org/winhelp2002/hosts.htm [mvps.org]
http://someonewhocares.org/hosts/ [someonewhocares.org]
http://hostsfile.org/hosts.html [hostsfile.org]
http://hostsfile.mine.nu/downloads/ [hostsfile.mine.nu]
http://hosts-file.net/?s=Download [hosts-file.net]

To name a few reputable & reliable + regularly updated models of HOSTS files (the program I wrote consolidates them all, removes duplicates, alphabetizes the entries, + changes the "blocking IP Address" format from 127.0.0.1 (slowest & largest), to 0.0.0.0 (next slowest & largest) to 0 (not compatible w/ all OS' anymore, but was until Windows VISTA & still is on 2000/XP/Server 2003) & lastly "Trims" them so that no trailing bloating blanks remain (which is what happens in DB engines like Access since no VARCHAR type is present in Access, as it is in mySQL, SQLServer, Oracle, DB2 etc./et al where you can use SELECT * DISTINCT / ORDER BY type queries to do the same as far as removing duplicates, sorts, etc.)

APK

P.S.=> Mine's for personal use (I didn't build in the HTTPGET functionality into it, because I simply email my HOSTS file (a composite of all others + 30,000 or so adbanner blocks I put into it myself) to others that request it, & other programs like that already exist (but they don't do quite as much as mine does otherwise per the list of its functions I put into it above))... apk

HOSTS files benefits (over AdBlock &/or DNS ev (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34403866)

1.) Adblock blocks ads in only 1 browser family (Disclaimer: Opera now has an AdBlock addon (now that Opera has addons above widgets), but I am not certain the same people make it as they do for FF...).

2.) HOSTS files are useable for all these purposes because they are present on all Operating Systems that have a BSD based IP stack (even ANDROID) and do adblocking for ANY webbrowser, email program, etc. (any webbound program).

3.) Adblock doesn't protect email programs external to FF, Hosts files do.

4.) Adblock won't get you to your favorite sites if a DNS server goes down or is DNS-poisoned, hosts will (this leads to points 4-7 next below).

4.) Adblock doesn't allow you to hardcode in your favorite websites into it so you don't make DNS server calls and so you can avoid tracking by DNS request logs, hosts do (DNS servers are also being abused by the Chinese lately and by the Kaminsky flaw -> http://www.networkworld.com/news/2008/082908-kaminsky-flaw-prompts-dns-server.html [networkworld.com] for years now). Hosts protect against those problems via hardcodes of your fav sites (you should verify against the TLD that does nothing but cache IPAddress-to-domainname/hostname resolutions via PINGS &/or WHOIS though, regularly, so you have the correct IP & it's current)).

5.) HOSTS files protect you vs. DNS-poisoning &/or the Kaminsky flaw in DNS servers, and allow you to get to sites reliably vs. things like the Chinese are doing to DNS -> http://yro.slashdot.org/story/10/11/29/1755230/Chinese-DNS-Tampering-a-Real-Threat-To-Outsiders [slashdot.org]

6.) AdBlock doesn't let you block out known bad sites or servers that are known to be maliciously scripted, hosts can and many reputable lists for this exist:

http://ddanchev.blogspot.com/ [blogspot.com]
https://zeustracker.abuse.ch/monitor.php?filter=online [abuse.ch]
http://www.malware.com.br/lists.shtml [malware.com.br]
http://www.stopbadware.org/ [stopbadware.org]
http://blog.fireeye.com/ [fireeye.com]
http://mtc.sri.com/ [sri.com]
http://news.netcraft.com/ [netcraft.com]
http://www.shadowserver.org/ [shadowserver.org]
http://www.mvps.org/ [mvps.org]
http://someonewhocares.org/ [someonewhocares.org]
http://hostsfile.mine.nu/hosts0 [hostsfile.mine.nu]
http://hosts-file.net/?s=Download [hosts-file.net]
http://www.stopbadware.org/home [stopbadware.org]

7.) HOSTS files will allow you to get to sites you like, via hardcoding your favs into a HOSTS file, FAR faster than DNS servers can by FAR (by saving the roundtrip inquiry time to a DNS server & back to you).

8.) AdBlock is a program, and subject to bugs programs can get. Hosts files are merely a filter and not a program, thus not subject to bugs of the nature just discussed.

9.) Hosts files don't eat up CPU cycles like AdBlock does while it parses a webpages' content.

10.) HOSTS files are EASILY user controlled, obtained (for reliable ones -> http://www.mvps.org/winhelp2002/hosts.htm [mvps.org] ) & edited too, via texteditors like Windows notepad.exe or Linux nano (etc.)

11.) You don't have the sourcecode to Adblock. With hosts you don't even need source to control it (edit, update, delete, insert of new entries via a text editor).

12.) Hosts files are easily secured via using MAC/ACL &/or Read-Only attributes applied.

13.) AND, LASTLY? SINCE MALWARE GENERALLY HAS TO OPERATE ON WHAT YOU YOURSELF CAN DO (running as limited class/least privlege user, hopefully, OR even as ADMIN/ROOT/SUPERUSER)? HOSTS "LOCK IN" malware too, vs. communicating "back to mama" for orders (provided they have name servers + C&C botnet servers listed in them, blocked off in your HOSTS that is) - you might think they use a hardcoded IP, which IS possible, but generally they do not & RECYCLE domain/host names they own (such as has been seen with the RBN (Russian Business Network) lately though it was considered "dead", other malwares are using its domains/hostnames now, & this? This stops that cold, too! Bonus...

APK

P.S.=> Still - It's a GOOD idea to layer in the usage of BOTH browser addons for security like adblock, &/or NoScript (especially this one, as it covers what HOSTS files can't in javascript which is the main deliverer of MOST attacks online & SECUNIA.COM can verify this for anyone really by looking @ the past few years of attacks nowadays), for the concept of "layered security"... apk

Lack of Adoption ... Again (3, Informative)

eldavojohn (898314) | more than 3 years ago | (#34403358)

From the article:

This is not the first time that an alternative Domain Name System has been proposed. Starting with AlterNIC in 1997, alternative DNS has had a controversial history. Many have ceased to function now because of the lack of adoption from users. However, coming right after the controversial seizure of 80 domains by the US government, P2P-DNS might just get enough support to make it a success.

My personal problem with the seizure of 80 domains really isn't that big of a deal. It sucks and it's probably a sign of the abuse of power from the DHS's Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE). But in the end, it was widely announced and advertised. It wasn't done under the cover of secrecy and they at least gave reasons as to why they were seized. For me, this isn't a reason to change the DNS root server that I use. Especially facing slower resolve times and security issues like DNS poisoning.

I can tell you I'm not interested in that trade off ... yet. If we see the US government doing what China's doing and not announcing who's being seized and why, then you will see me jump on board this.

My close friend used borntrade.net which was a knockoff jersey site from a factory in China. Their crime? Avoiding tariffs and not paying tribute to the NHL/MLB/NFL/NBA gods. He might want to use your DNS but I would assume it would only be to conduct business through borntrade.net and not to actually use it on a daily basis. Disclaimer: I think I've seen borntrade bots spamming the Slashdot forums before but now that it's just a DHS/DoJ logo splash screen, you can rest assured I'm not some guy trying to send you there by way of a fake comment.

I would guess that despite the domains being seized, you're going to see the general public not care that much and again the project will fail from lack of adoption. Clandestine government working against the people? Yeah, a few more people are going to hop on board and put up with the speed and security issues. But could someone outline how the whole public would get on board with this? I mean, assuming it's as simple as a browser plugin you can't even get people to install those when the benefits are obvious.

Re:Lack of Adoption ... Again (2, Insightful)

Ltap (1572175) | more than 3 years ago | (#34403462)

Exactly. If people aren't installing Adblock Plus, despite all of the enormous benefits, they are going to mess with alternate DNS -- assuming they even know what DNS is and what it does. On the other hand, it doesn't necessarily need to have perfect adoption. Like torrents, it is fine if it starts with a few technically proficient people, then spreads outwards.

Also, you've probably underestimated the use against, say, schools or workplaces that use alternate DNS servers with "questionable" domains removed. Using this with encryption will pretty much kill any attempt at monitoring.

Re:Lack of Adoption ... Again (1)

stonewallred (1465497) | more than 3 years ago | (#34403694)

I disagree. When it gets to a point where it can be installed as easily as ABP, then it will get used. I am not a tech geek. But I use ABP/NoScript and it is installed in my mom's computer, my sister's computers, my brother's computer and my uncle's computer, simply because I am the one who sets them up and maintains them for them. If there is a way to install a p2p DNS thingee as easily and securely as ABP, they will all be hosting it.

HOSTS files are superior to AdBlock & how/why (0, Redundant)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34403798)

1.) Adblock blocks ads in only 1 browser family (Disclaimer: Opera now has an AdBlock addon (now that Opera has addons above widgets), but I am not certain the same people make it as they do for FF...).

2.) HOSTS files are useable for all these purposes because they are present on all Operating Systems that have a BSD based IP stack (even ANDROID) and do adblocking for ANY webbrowser, email program, etc. (any webbound program).

3.) Adblock doesn't protect email programs external to FF, Hosts files do.

4.) Adblock won't get you to your favorite sites if a DNS server goes down or is DNS-poisoned, hosts will (this leads to points 4-7 next below).

4.) Adblock doesn't allow you to hardcode in your favorite websites into it so you don't make DNS server calls and so you can avoid tracking by DNS request logs, hosts do (DNS servers are also being abused by the Chinese lately and by the Kaminsky flaw for years now - hosts protect against that via hardcodes of your fav sites (you should verify against the TLD that does nothing but cache IPAddress-to-domainname/hostname resolutions via PINGS &/or WHOIS though, regularly, so you have the correct IP & it's current)).

5.) HOSTS files protect you vs. DNS-poisoning &/or the Kaminsky flaw in DNS servers, and allow you to get to sites reliably vs. things like the Chinese are doing to DNS -> http://yro.slashdot.org/story/10/11/29/1755230/Chinese-DNS-Tampering-a-Real-Threat-To-Outsiders [slashdot.org]

6.) AdBlock doesn't let you block out known bad sites or servers that are known to be maliciously scripted, hosts can and many reputable lists for this exist:

http://ddanchev.blogspot.com/ [blogspot.com]
https://zeustracker.abuse.ch/monitor.php?filter=online [abuse.ch]
http://www.malware.com.br/lists.shtml [malware.com.br]
http://www.stopbadware.org/ [stopbadware.org]
http://blog.fireeye.com/ [fireeye.com]
http://mtc.sri.com/ [sri.com]
http://news.netcraft.com/ [netcraft.com]
http://www.shadowserver.org/ [shadowserver.org]
http://www.mvps.org/ [mvps.org]
http://someonewhocares.org/ [someonewhocares.org]
http://hostsfile.mine.nu/hosts0 [hostsfile.mine.nu]
http://hosts-file.net/?s=Download [hosts-file.net]
http://www.stopbadware.org/home [stopbadware.org]

7.) HOSTS files will allow you to get to sites you like, via hardcoding your favs into a HOSTS file, FAR faster than DNS servers can by FAR (by saving the roundtrip inquiry time to a DNS server & back to you).

8.) AdBlock is a program, and subject to bugs programs can get. Hosts files are merely a filter and not a program, thus not subject to bugs of the nature just discussed.

9.) Hosts files don't eat up CPU cycles like AdBlock does while it parses a webpages' content.

10.) HOSTS files are EASILY user controlled, obtained (for reliable ones -> http://www.mvps.org/winhelp2002/hosts.htm [mvps.org] ) & edited too, via texteditors like Windows notepad.exe or Linux nano (etc.)

11.) You don't have the sourcecode to Adblock. With hosts you don't even need source to control it (edit, update, delete, insert of new entries via a text editor).

12.) Hosts files are easily secured via using MAC/ACL &/or Read-Only attributes applied.

13.) AND, LASTLY? SINCE MALWARE GENERALLY HAS TO OPERATE ON WHAT YOU YOURSELF CAN DO (running as limited class/least privlege user, hopefully, OR even as ADMIN/ROOT/SUPERUSER)? HOSTS "LOCK IN" malware too, vs. communicating "back to mama" for orders (provided they have name servers + C&C botnet servers listed in them, blocked off in your HOSTS that is) - you might think they use a hardcoded IP, which IS possible, but generally they do not & RECYCLE domain/host names they own (such as has been seen with the RBN (Russian Business Network) lately though it was considered "dead", other malwares are using its domains/hostnames now, & this? This stops that cold, too! Bonus...

APK

P.S.=> Still - It's a GOOD idea to layer in the usage of BOTH browser addons for security like adblock, &/or NoScript (especially this one, as it covers what HOSTS files can't in javascript which is the main deliverer of MOST attacks online & SECUNIA.COM can verify this for anyone really by looking @ the past few years of attacks nowadays), for the concept of "layered security"... apk

Re:HOSTS files are superior to AdBlock & how/w (1)

nschubach (922175) | more than 3 years ago | (#34404172)

Hosts files are ignored if you are on a proxy.

PROXIES slow you down, badly, usually (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34404234)

That I'll have to add as a "caveat", & you're correct afaik (but, why use proxies from home? To post anonymously & to pull bogus stuff?? I can't see valid reasons for it, because PROXIES SLOW YOU DOWN BADLY MOST OF THE TIME, especially "highly anonymous" ones)...

Nice point though - I take it AdBlock isn't subject to that (is it)? Well, IF that's the case, then it makes sense WHY I listed using BOTH AdBlock &/or HOSTS in combination... "layered security" to protect you on ALL fronts & possible scenarios! Even the one you post now...

Still, I actually LIKE when you folks "take pot shots" @ that list of mine above where I extoll the virtues of HOSTS files usage.

(It only makes me make that list, all the more stronger vs. nitpicking!)

APK

P.S.=> Any problems with that which I wrote above, point-by-point? Thanks... apk

Re:Lack of Adoption ... Again (1)

xtracto (837672) | more than 3 years ago | (#34404340)

I had a quick read in the distributed notepad that the guys behind the dns-p2p are using. One of the clarifications they made there is that this dns-p2p would be mainly aimed at ISPs. The idea is that ISPs use dns-p2p to update the records of their own DNS and their users do not have to change anything.

If they can make say google 4.4.4.4 or 8.8.8.8 DNS adopt dns-p2p or a bunch of other mainstream dns providers, then we have won.

Re:Lack of Adoption ... Again (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34403614)

Yeah, a few more people are going to hop on board and put up with the speed and security issues. But could someone outline how the whole public would get on board with this?

That's like saying the general public isn't going to download a separate application just to download music files (Napster) or that they're going to learn something "complicated" like how to find BitTorrent trackers and stuff just to download movies and television shows, and yet ... What's really great about this is that end users will not have to do anything. It will be built into P2P applications.

Re:Lack of Adoption ... Again (2)

airfoobar (1853132) | more than 3 years ago | (#34403702)

I thought the only reason they announced what websites were seized was public outcry... Besides, with COICA coming up, I expect online censorship will become just another part of everyday life. Adoption will be driven by need, and if we want to be optimistic, let's hope the need doesn't arise.

From what I read, the new DNS service will basically redirect to the usual ICANN system, except for .p2p domains for which lookup will be distributed. Even if governments censor Wikileaks and TPB .com domains, the .p2p domains will remain. The whole idea is to reassert that the internet routes around the bad parts, and to show to the imbeciles we have for politicians that we won't let them censor our internets.

Re:Lack of Adoption ... Again (2)

Abcd1234 (188840) | more than 3 years ago | (#34404130)

My personal problem with the seizure of 80 domains really isn't that big of a deal. It sucks and it's probably a sign of the abuse of power from the DHS's Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE). But in the end, it was widely announced and advertised. It wasn't done under the cover of secrecy and they at least gave reasons as to why they were seized.

Yeah! It's kinda like how the cops can just walk into your house and take your computer without any kind of due process, so long as they announce it ahead of time, and give a few good excuses!

Right? I'm sure that's how it's supposed to work...

Re:Lack of Adoption ... Again (1)

Hatta (162192) | more than 3 years ago | (#34404430)

But in the end, it was widely announced and advertised. It wasn't done under the cover of secrecy and they at least gave reasons as to why they were seized.

So in your eyes, theft is ok if it's brazen?

ICANN... (2)

digitaldc (879047) | more than 3 years ago | (#34403370)

...see this being mysteriously stopped by unknown forces.

Re:ICANN... (1)

whiteboy86 (1930018) | more than 3 years ago | (#34403954)

You can always sue the entity back, if it is government backed then even better, lawyers loves government defendant lawsuits, you can easily ask for millions in damages and they will pay, however, in this scenario of a blackhat plaintiff, this is probably not workable :)

2 questions (1)

abigsmurf (919188) | more than 3 years ago | (#34403398)

1: how could you stop malware developers flooding the network and pointing every request to an exploit filled page?
2: would this be a router's worst nightmare?

Re:2 questions (1)

nedlohs (1335013) | more than 3 years ago | (#34403474)

1. Hopefully something fundamental in teh unexplained design.

2. router's don't know or care about DNS.

Re:2 questions (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34403480)

1: how could you stop malware developers flooding the network and pointing every request to an exploit filled page? 2: would this be a router's worst nightmare?

I suggest you read up a bit on the workings of DNS servers. This will not be a problem.

Re:2 questions (5, Insightful)

werfu (1487909) | more than 3 years ago | (#34403616)

2: would this be a router's worst nightmare? In tree structure that ISPs has put us in, yes. But if this structure ever fails and we get back to the original net design, which is a mesh network, than it would not be such a problem. DNS change would be propagated to next nodes, wave like. IMO the problems come from the centralization and tree structure the net has become. We've seen fiber optic cable cutting net access to a whole part of the world. What would happen in a global war? Or a megalomaniac terrorist decided to cut net links all around the world? Worst economical crash ever? We're too dependent on big telcos and governments infrastructures. The net should be open, free for anyone. Simply by airwaves, like a big shout going unstopped around the world. Alright, enough dreaming here, I'm out :)

Re:2 questions (1)

VGPowerlord (621254) | more than 3 years ago | (#34404084)

2: would this be a router's worst nightmare? In tree structure that ISPs has put us in, yes. But if this structure ever fails and we get back to the original net design, which is a mesh network, than it would not be such a problem. DNS change would be propagated to next nodes, wave like. IMO the problems come from the centralization and tree structure the net has become.

Actually DNS has always been a tree structure. For example, to resolve www.microsoft.com, a recursive DNS client needs to:

  1. Ask a root server for the address of the .com registry.
  2. Ask the .com registry for the DNS servers responsible for the microsoft.com domain
  3. Ask (for example) ns1.msft.net for the address of www.microsoft.com

This is ignoring stub clients, which are found in most OSes which ask a recursive DNS server to do this process for them.

Re:2 questions (1)

guruevi (827432) | more than 3 years ago | (#34404336)

There are solutions for that similar to how decentralized logins work (OpenID). DNSSEC would probably help a lot.

All they have to do is replicate the current roots and then just replicate a separate list with the illegally seized domain names.

Doesn't Matter If It's Small or Fragmented (1)

Greyfox (87712) | more than 3 years ago | (#34403468)

Anyone can set up a DNS server and serve names, and anyone else pointing at that DNS server can resolve them. There has always been some competition to the mainstream DNS and I think this move will bring more.

It doesn't really seem like you even really need a domain name these days. I don't even notice the name of a lot of sites I find through google. These days they're really just a symptom of the corporate takeover of the Internet, but the standards they rely on are just a bunch of documents from people suggesting that something might be a good idea. Now that the lines have been drawn and ICANN is showing its colors (again) it's time for people to start having some other good ideas. If most people are happy with corporations turning the Internet into a giant cable TV station with tolls for everything, that's fine, but if you don't like that situation you can do something else. People "in the know" can be as much or as little a part of the mainstream Internet as they want to.

He better stay away from women for a while... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34403508)

...or he'll soon be on interpol's list.

Who's the target audience..? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34403542)

When I see stuff like this, I have to wonder - who's going to use it?

The answer, of course, is a simple one: people who care about shit like this. However, they make up such a small percentage of the internet using population that most others won't bother. Are everyday users going to start hacking their iPhones, Blackberries and Android devices so that they can get around the "imperial" 3g regimes that the telecoms provide?

Indeed, perhaps these are also the same people that are sponsoring Diaspora...

One does have to sometimes wonder if Peter is running from a force that exists only in his own head. There's no monster under your bed, mate. Now, go to sleep. Tomorrow is a new day.

What im wondering is, (1)

unity100 (970058) | more than 3 years ago | (#34403582)

why such a thing didnt come into being MUCH earlier. i mean, up till this time, almost entire control of internet in regard to this, has been in the hands of a single country .... isnt it ridiculous ?

Re:What im wondering is, (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34404014)

It isn't ridiculous (except for your rabid anti-US sentiment). The country that controls it invented the Internet. Think China or Russia would have been as open if they allowed people to connect and send civilian traffic on a network originally designed as a military one?

Re:What im wondering is, (1)

unity100 (970058) | more than 3 years ago | (#34404204)

The country that controls it invented the Internet.

u.s. didnt invent internet. it embodied numerous concepts already existing, and put them out as a meshed concept. just like how the first ironclad ever, warrior embodying all the inventions up to date, but appearing as a new class of ship back in 19th century.

and it is ridiculous. if internet was arranged for decentralization, there shouldnt be any country controlling it in the first place.

WINS - Yes, WINS - Windows Internet Naming System (3, Interesting)

Joe U (443617) | more than 3 years ago | (#34403690)

Most major systems have a WINS client, I doubt nearly anyone is using it at home.

Write a resolver that mimics WINS to the client and then behind the scenes use a modern P2P encrypted network.

No client work is needed, no DNS passthru is needed and no DNS baggage is needed.

Now you have a foothold until you spend the time to write a native client.

Re:WINS - Yes, WINS - Windows Internet Naming Syst (0)

ocularsinister (774024) | more than 3 years ago | (#34403970)

Most desktop systems may have WINS installed, but those oh so important servers probably don't (why on earth would google install samba on all its linux boxen, for example?). Besides, you've somewhat glossed over the issue with "Write a resolver that mimics WINS to the client and then behind the scenes use a modern P2P encrypted network." That's the hard bit - whether its DNS or WINS resolution is a mere technical detail. Building a system that can provide reliable, quick and above all *trustworthy* resolution over p2p is difficult. I hope he/they can find a way, but I doubt that they will.

Re:WINS - Yes, WINS - Windows Internet Naming Syst (1)

Joe U (443617) | more than 3 years ago | (#34404468)

Obviously, writing a new resolver isn't easy, and using DNS is easy, but also easily intercepted by the ISP.

I was just reminded that WINS may be limited to 15 characters, which pretty much rules it out anyway.

Oh well, that's what brainstorming is for. The answer to this is going to be outside of DNS as we know it today.

Re:WINS - Yes, WINS - Windows Internet Naming Syst (2)

alphatel (1450715) | more than 3 years ago | (#34404036)

Even as a hybrid node, WINS is limited to 15 characters (last bit for browser announce) so we'd run out of address space quick. Plus if memory serves (it's been a while), routers will not pass NBT traffic without implicit configuration.

Re:WINS - Yes, WINS - Windows Internet Naming Syst (1)

defaria (741527) | more than 3 years ago | (#34404202)

Two things. First - WINS is, as it's name implies - Windows Only. Many servers in the back room are not Windows. Secondly most "major systems" whatever that means don't even run WINS anymore.

You will never win... try a new tactic (0, Offtopic)

CodePwned (1630439) | more than 3 years ago | (#34403760)

You cannot beat those who wish to share. You cannot win against the vast numbers. Take one down and 10 sprout to replace the fallen one. The harder you hunt them the more difficult it will be to find them. Stop fighting a battle you cannot win concerning control.

Instead, change your pricing structure, change your delivery methods, stop wasting money on DRM people like me bypass in mere seconds.

This is the future and you are merely in denial. Learn, adapt, and you'll be amazed at the success you will have.

Re:You will never win... try a new tactic (1)

Malenx (1453851) | more than 3 years ago | (#34403930)

Lol... give us what we want for free and you'll be amazed at what cash you won't make.

Do you really blame them for trying to keep a hold on their old business models?

The real problem here is the government spoon feeding them hope by allowing the government to be these companies enforcers. If the government didn't intervene, we'd all be off in a much better / customer friendly world right now.

Re:You will never win... try a new tactic (1)

GooberToo (74388) | more than 3 years ago | (#34403976)

Instead, change your pricing structure

You mean, away from the pricing structure which pirates previously said was required? You mean, away from extremely reasonable prices (typically less than $1.00 per song)? There is absolutely nothing wrong with the pricing structure now.

Such statements are red herrings, making imaginary excuses to justify an illegal act.

Now if you want to complain about contractual obligations in the music world, you might have a point, but piracy isn't really related to that in the least. Attempting to make such a connection, is again, that same red herring. Besides, there are lots of existing ways to fix the system without taking from those who have worked hard on their copyrighted product.

Only in a pirate's mind is depriving someone of their income equivalent to helping them.

Re:You will never win... try a new tactic (1)

mikechant (729173) | more than 3 years ago | (#34404370)

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the pricing structure now.

A pricing structure that typically (in the UK anyhow) charges about 10-20% more** for lossy digital album downloads than it does for lossless physical CDs (with free delivery) has certainly got something seriously wrong with it.

**My experience, comparing various back catalogue albums, Amazon CD vs. iTunes prices.

They will attack it with Viruses (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34403862)

Just like they attacked Iran.... I think we're going to see more governments and corportations using Viruses to try and slow down the competition.

History lesson (2, Interesting)

GPLDAN (732269) | more than 3 years ago | (#34404030)

Karl Denninger, Chicago's most despised internet citizen, now Tea Party wacko dispensing Capital Market advice/doom in Florida, once tried to take ICANN on in 1997 and create eDNS, an alternate DNS with new root servers. Mostly under his direction. He failed. Funny, he doesn't mention that in his bio when he appears as the resident doomsayer on one of the financial networks on tv these days.

Nevertheless, it's a good history lesson in taking ICANN head on. Peter Sunde has something truly subversive, the people taking back the name server space. Let's see if Karl can get on board with this, he's usually preaching that the people need to take pitchforks and torches and march in the street.
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