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Goodbye, VGA

CmdrTaco posted more than 3 years ago | from the we-definitely-knew-thee dept.

Intel 356

jones_supa writes "Leading PC companies have expressed their will to finally start kicking out legacy display interfaces. Intel plans to end support of LVDS in 2013 and VGA in 2015 in its PC client processors and chipsets. While the large installed base of existing VGA monitors and projectors will likely keep VGA on PC back panels beyond 2015, PC and display panel makers are in strong support of this transition. The DisplayPort connector interface provides backwards and forwards compatibility by supporting VGA and DVI output via certified adapters, while also providing new capabilities such as single connector multi-monitor support."

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That's one heck of a "long goodbye" (4, Informative)

Corporate Troll (537873) | more than 3 years ago | (#34499718)

Oh, I wouldn't say goodbye just yet.... 2015 is still a long way to go. Recently, the monitor at my parents failed (a 2 or 3 year old 1280x1024 LCD panel... All CRTs before that lasted way longer. This LCD craze does have its downsides). Their computer has an old GeForce 4 MX 4400 or so with only a VGA port. I went to a local electronics shop and found a 23" Full HD LCD panel for an incredible 149€. I bought it, but then I got worried. Wait, the box doesn't mention VGA at all only DVI. I was a bit scared I'd have to upgrade to DVI, not that it matters, I have tons of older video cards with DVI so it would just have been a bit extra work.

Turned out that when I opened the box, only a VGA cable was included. DVI connector was there, and I'm pretty sure that it would work. For me it was ideal, for someone planning to connect to a DVI-only machine would probably have needed to go back to buy a cable.

Also keep in mind that a lot of laptops only have VGA. As far as I know there are no VGA-DVI adapters (DVI-VGA does exist). Since these days 5 year old computers and older fullfil the need of most computer users, don't expect VGA monitors to disappear soon. Companies will cater the needs of those "left behind".

DisplayPort? Haven't even seen a computer having that by default... Macs perhaps? I don't know, we only have a iMac and since the monitor is built-in, I didn't bother looking for display connectors.

No, wait... I think my fathers new Alienware laptop has a displayport. Totally forgot about that. It's less than a year old though.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye" (4, Interesting)

jimicus (737525) | more than 3 years ago | (#34499772)

Macs have DisplayPort connectors, and have done for some time.

Though I wouldn't be too surprised to see this continue for some time - hell, you can still buy a PC with PS/2 connectors, FFS.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye" (5, Insightful)

jawtheshark (198669) | more than 3 years ago | (#34499824)

What's wrong with PS/2 connectors? I prefer them, unlike USB they don't require polling as they are interrupt driven. When I can choose, I take PS/2 over USB for keyboards and mice. Saves USB ports too for other duties.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye" (1)

Pojut (1027544) | more than 3 years ago | (#34499902)

Agreed! I just wish I didn't have fifty billion PS/2 adapters in my desk drawers -_-;;

Note: I'm totally kidding. It's more like sixty billion.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye" (4, Insightful)

corbettw (214229) | more than 3 years ago | (#34499912)

Or you could, I dunno, get a USB keyboard that has two or four USB ports on it, itself. Try doing that with PS2.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye" (2)

jawtheshark (198669) | more than 3 years ago | (#34499952)

Oddly enough I have one of those at work... I never think of using them... I always connect stuff directly to the laptop or the docking station. In my mind a keyboard is still something standalone... Heck, even my external monitor has USB connectors. I never use those either. I simply don't think of them as USB hubs.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye" (1)

imakemusic (1164993) | more than 3 years ago | (#34499988)

Great plan. As long as you're not using too much power on your USB devices, that is...

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye" (4, Informative)

Lumpy (12016) | more than 3 years ago | (#34500068)

And slow your stuff down to usb1.1 spec. Oh and zero power there. I have a USB flash stick that will not work off of a Keyboard USB port. Not enough power there.

extra usb ports on your keyboard are like stick on air vents for a car... There for show only.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye" (0)

commodore64_love (1445365) | more than 3 years ago | (#34500294)

>>>get a USB keyboard that has two or four USB ports on it, itself.

Just what I need: More cables to get my legs and other appendages tangled in. I tend to avoid the USB connectors on my keyboard, and prefer to use the ones on the floor (on the computer case). It would be nice if they made more keyboards/mice that used the traditional PS/2 connector.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye" (1)

peragrin (659227) | more than 3 years ago | (#34500386)

I plug my mouse into the keyboard that way I only have one cable going under the desk. How is that not simpler? It also means I can move the keyboard and mouse together as opposed to haveing one of the cables to short.

Simplify your stuff. The smaller number of cable runs you have the neater and more organized they will be.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye" (1)

Sockatume (732728) | more than 3 years ago | (#34499920)

What are you doing with your mouse and keyboard that the protocol makes a practical difference? I'm legitimately curious, not sniping. I use a PS/2 keyboard to save ports myself.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye" (1)

jawtheshark (198669) | more than 3 years ago | (#34499980)

It might make a difference when your computer is under heavy load and you try to kill the runaway process.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye" (2)

zach_the_lizard (1317619) | more than 3 years ago | (#34500072)

If your computer is under such heavy load that a USB mouse/keyboard is being dropped, I think it's time to upgrade from that 286!

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye" (1)

disi (1465053) | more than 3 years ago | (#34500126)

I think is was 127 USB ports you can make out of one.
So if you use more than 127 USB ports, that's bad...

On the other hand, I usually charge all my stuff on a USB port and it is sometimes annoying to wait until the cable is free to charge the next device.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye" (1)

dreamchaser (49529) | more than 3 years ago | (#34500232)

If your computer is under such heavy load that a USB mouse/keyboard is being dropped, I think it's time to upgrade from that 286!

That is about the lamest and most artificial response to a question I've seen in a long time. As another poster put it, if your computer is under that much load you have far bigger problems than what type of interface you are using for your keyboard. There is absolutely no technical reason to prefer USB keyboards over PS2 unless you have a machine that lacks a PS2 port. Personally I don't care either way. I use what I have on the given machine. Some of my boxen have PS2 keyboards and mice, some have USB. It makes zero difference in the real world.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye" (1)

dreamchaser (49529) | more than 3 years ago | (#34500244)

Hmmm I hit reply to the GP post yet it posted it as a reply to yours. I wasn't criticizing you, I was going after the GP :)

I hate the new /. interface. It's utter crap.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye" (1)

NJRoadfan (1254248) | more than 3 years ago | (#34500130)

Only one thing I can thing of... IBM Model M It tends to have issues with PS/2 to USB adapters. I use PS/2 mice and keyboards too (and ADB on all my Macs since they are old). PS/2 keyboards always seem to work correctly on boot-up for BIOS setup use, I've had problems with USB keyboards on some machines. PS/2 mice don't have the polling problems that another poster mentioned.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye" (1)

Bigbutt (65939) | more than 3 years ago | (#34500412)

What sort of issues? I have two and one is connected to my laptop via a DIN to PS/2 to USB connectors, the other is a DIN to PS/2 connected to my main computer.

[John]

When PS2 is better - one example (1)

BenEnglishAtHome (449670) | more than 3 years ago | (#34500308)

In my organization, all computers run full disk encryption with a pre-boot screen that pops up to enter a password. We use both Guardian Edge and WinMagic products for this purpose. We've found that in one fairly common failure mode seen while Guardian Edge Hard Disk disk encryption is used, when we need to type in an admin account name and password to unlock machines, the machines simply don't recognize USB devices. Plug in a PS2 keyboard, reboot, and then we can log on and fix 'em.

I'm pretty clueless about why this is the case but I also know I'll be keeping a couple of PS2 keyboards around until I retire in 5 years.

I'd guess that if this is the case with us, there are probably other "pre-boot" situations where PS2 is usable but USB is not.

Anyone who actually understands this mechanism and is willing to explain it - please chime in.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye" (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34500434)

I swore to never buy a USB keyboard again when I found out that my expensive Microsoft "anti-ghosting" USB keyboard wouldn't reliably register more than three key depressions at the same time. The keyboard was advertised as supporting 6-key rollover - and apparently the hardware had that capability - but USB requires a special driver to recognize more than three key presses at once. So it worked fine in Windows, but didn't work with the linux 2.4 kernel.

Even with the proper USB HID driver, USB is still limited to 6 keypresses at once, while PS/2 will handle as many keys as you can press.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye" (2)

AdamHaun (43173) | more than 3 years ago | (#34500624)

The USB keyboard protocol polls the keyboard for changes at regular intervals. If two keys change state very close together (i.e., if you're a fast typist), the changes will be sent in the same data packet. The problem is that the protocol doesn't care about the order of the keypresses and just handles the changes in QWERTY order, so I get typos in my text whenever I type in the "wrong" order. The $100 Das Keyboard is particularly bad about this due to its N-key repeat feature, but others do it too.

Modern consumer electronics seems to have given up high-speed response in favor of convenience and ease of signal processing. A noteworthy (and on-topic!) example is LCD input lag, the real reason I'll be sad to see VGA go. Analog signal paths are horrible from an electrical point of view, but they're also lag-free.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye" (1)

Danieljury3 (1809634) | more than 3 years ago | (#34499842)

Macs have DisplayPort connectors? I thought those were only on mid-high range video cards for people who want to connect 3 or more monitors.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye" (1)

zach_the_lizard (1317619) | more than 3 years ago | (#34500082)

Even my old, underpowered MacBook has a displayport connector.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye" (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34500222)

hell, you can still buy a PC with PS/2 connectors, FFS.

They're actually very useful on some systems. For example, Dell's Optiplex 980 can't boot from a USB flash drive unless it's the only USB device. Time to fish out the PS/2 mouse and keyboards...

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye" (2)

xded (1046894) | more than 3 years ago | (#34500316)

USB is actually inferior to PS/2 for keyboards (see n-key rollover [geekhack.org] ).

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye" (1)

somersault (912633) | more than 3 years ago | (#34499840)

New Dell Precision workstation we got recently only has either DisplayPort or mini-HDMI connectors on the graphics card. There was an adapter included to convert to DVI output so I just used that.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye" (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34499852)

> As far as I know there are no VGA-DVI adapters

I don't know what made you think that. I've owned and used several myself.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye" (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34499896)

Technically that's a converter, not an adapter. An adapter would just change the physical interface, but you obviously can't send an analog signal into a digital interface.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye" (1)

WaroDaBeast (1211048) | more than 3 years ago | (#34500268)

(...) but you obviously can't send an analog signal into a digital interface.

This is why DVI-D to VGA (and conversely, VGA to DVI-D) adapters don't exist.That said, DVI-I (and DVI-A too, but I have yet to see one of those) can send both digital and analog signals, so I would call it an adapter.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye" (1)

Corporate Troll (537873) | more than 3 years ago | (#34499910)

Interesting. I stand corrected. I never had seen any, but a search on newegg gave me this [newegg.com] . Thanks...

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye" (1)

srothroc (733160) | more than 3 years ago | (#34499858)

VGA, HDMI, and DVI on mine.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye" (5, Informative)

Moryath (553296) | more than 3 years ago | (#34499928)

The phrase "certified adapter" means "video quality degraded to crap and DRM added."

Just FYI.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye" (1)

compro01 (777531) | more than 3 years ago | (#34499936)

VGA-DVI adapters (actually converters, as you need to do analog-to-digital) exist, they're just rather expensive.

http://www.networktechinc.com/vga-dvi.html [networktechinc.com]

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye" (2)

TheThiefMaster (992038) | more than 3 years ago | (#34500150)

You don't need to convert to digital, DVI has an analogue variant.

The problem is that I don't know of any displays with a DVI-analogue socket.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye" (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34500488)

You don't need to convert to digital, DVI has an analogue variant.

The problem is that I don't know of any displays with a DVI-analogue socket.

An LCD display with a DVI-A input would indeed be silly. DVI-D (accepting either analog or digital signals) on the other hand ... well, those only recently started disappearing from displays.

Heck, the 20", 23" and 30" Apple Cinema Displays had DVI-D ports and were quite happy being driven by an analog signal over a VGA->DVI-D cable.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye" (3, Insightful)

petermgreen (876956) | more than 3 years ago | (#34499948)

As far as I know there are no VGA-DVI adapters (DVI-VGA does exist)
The adaptors you speak of are just wiring adaptors. They (along with DVI-I sockets) let a computer or monitor manufacturer offer both analog and digital on the same port but the analog output hardware still has to be present in the computer. Afaict if the monitor supports it you can use them at the monitor end as well.

There are adaptors that actually convert between digital and analog but they don't come cheap.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye" (1)

Rockoon (1252108) | more than 3 years ago | (#34500342)

..and just to be clear, there are several different types of DVI sockets you will typically find on consumer parts.br>
DVI-I is mainly found on video cards.
DVI-A (analog) and DVI-D (digital) are both common to LCD panels.

DVI-I is a superset of both of them, so that either an analog or digital input monitor can be plugged into them.

The DVI-A standard was designed to be trivially converted to VGA.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye" (1)

commodore64_love (1445365) | more than 3 years ago | (#34500372)

There goes my 3 VGA CRT and 1 LCD monitor. Next I suppose they'll phase-out Svideo on DVRs and make TVs obsolete too. (shrug). I did try one of those DVI-to-VGA adapters one time but the picture was "faded" for some reason, and I went back to VGA.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye" (1)

red_dragon (1761) | more than 3 years ago | (#34499960)

Dell has been including DisplayPort in some (all?) of their newer models, both desktop and laptops. My Dell Precision M4400 has a DisplayPort on the back, but I end up using the VGA port on the side instead to watch Hulu on my TV. Their OptiPlex desktops and Latitude laptops are now also equipped with it.

There are VGA-to-DVI cables and adapters out there. It's what the video conference system at my work uses to connect VGA devices to its DVI secondary input. They have to be available by design, since DVI supports both analog (VGA) and digital signals on the same connector.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye" (1)

arivanov (12034) | more than 3 years ago | (#34499968)

You forgot to mention - does it work properly after that over the VGA cable?

Most VGA cables cannot take the frequencies required to transmit a HD signal cleanly so you get pretty nasty ghosting. The same is valid for a lot of recent video cards which have VGA as an afterthought on a cable hanging of a header on the side.

On the negative side, this is likely to reinstate the whole debacle about resolutions, DRM and the other "digital may allow people to steal stuff" that kind'a went away from the PC and got confined in "consumerdevice land" with the introduction of the HDMI.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye" (2)

petermgreen (876956) | more than 3 years ago | (#34500110)

Ghosting isn't really about frequency response. Lack of high frequency response would cause bluring.

If you really have ghosting it is likely a result of impedence mismatches either because you are attempting to use a passive splitter, because the characteristic impedance of the cable is wrong or because the termination in the devices sucks.

Personally I've had pretty good luck with VGA EXCEPT when trying to drive HDTVs. My conclusion is that the VGA inputs on those things just suck.

"FULL HD" isn't really that much higher than 1280x1024, especially when you condsider that LCDs usually run at 60Hz while late CRT monitors were often run much higher than that.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye" (1)

jedidiah (1196) | more than 3 years ago | (#34500520)

You must be joking...

Some of have been happly using VGA cables for "HD" signals since long before any HD standard was defined.

This has to be the dumbest thing yet that anyone has come up with on this thread.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye" (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34499994)

I once had to buy cables to fit a VGA port on our new workstations to DVI-only monitors. They're out there.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye" (4, Insightful)

dasunt (249686) | more than 3 years ago | (#34500038)

Recently, the monitor at my parents failed (a 2 or 3 year old 1280x1024 LCD panel... All CRTs before that lasted way longer. This LCD craze does have its downsides).

Often, if an LCD goes after just a few years, it's due to a bad capacitor or two on the motherboard.

If you do a bit of research and find out what the requirements for the capacitors are (usually low-ESR, etc), the cost for each capacitor is under $1, and anyone with basic desoldering skills can replace them.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye" (1)

DrSkwid (118965) | more than 3 years ago | (#34500044)

http://www.ramblers.org.uk/ [ramblers.org.uk]

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye" (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34500046)

Oh, I wouldn't say goodbye just yet.... 2015 is still a long way to go. Recently, the monitor at my parents failed (a 2 or 3 year old 1280x1024 LCD panel... All CRTs before that lasted way longer. This LCD craze does have its downsides).

Most likely your parents monitor just had a bad capacitor on the power board. If you are handy with a soldering iron and can afford about $4 in parts from an electronics supply store you can replace them all in about an hour or less. This goes for any LCD desktop monitor and probably most (if not all) expensive large televisions of LCD type. When you think about it, even in "off" (really standby mode) the power unit is still on and is subject to line power quality.

It is really a cheap wager of a small amount of cash and a slight bit of time vs. having to throw out a sometimes rather expensive piece of equipment for the failure of a 25 cent part.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye" (2)

agressiv (145582) | more than 3 years ago | (#34500070)

Almost all new corporate laptops now have display port (Lenovo, HP, Dell). All AMD-based corporate desktops now have DisplayPort as the "2nd monitor" on the onboard motherboard. (e.g. HP Compaq 6005)

However - it is ironic that "display panel" makers are "anxious", because if you look at most display makers' LCD offerings - maybe 1-2 models out of 15 or so will actually have a DisplayPort port - and you'll be paying a hefty premium for that. We have to buy adapters with every computer we buy for users who want dual monitor, because we're not going to pay an extra $150-$200 to get a monitor which has native DisplayPort.

You want a bargain basement monitor? They probably won't even have DVI. Many still are VGA-only to save on costs.

agressiv

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye" (3, Interesting)

TheRaven64 (641858) | more than 3 years ago | (#34500210)

Many still are VGA-only to save on costs

That doesn't make sense. Driving a TFT from VGA requires a lot more circuitry than driving it from DVI-D. That's why the Apple monitors only had DVI-D input; it was cheaper to produce. In reality, the cheap TFT monitors are VGA only for differentiation: they're convinced people that it's worth paying a premium to be able to drive your digital display from a digital signal, and so people do.

DisplayPort should be even cheaper. It's designed to be easy to use to drive a typical TFT and, unlike DVI and HDMI, doesn't require you to pay a royalty to use. Monitors that are DisplayPort-only are going to be cheaper to produce than any of the other options. Of course, that doesn't mean that they'll cost less to consumers...

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye" (2)

berwiki (989827) | more than 3 years ago | (#34500218)

This LCD craze does have its downsides

See, this is where my conspiracy theories kick in. It's actually a good business model if you make a monitor that only lasts 2-3 years opposed to one that lasts decades. TV/Monitor manufactures may very well skimp on several areas, knowing full well you will be replacing your device much sooner than before.

I don't think the entire world is evil, I just think all corporations are.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye" (1)

russotto (537200) | more than 3 years ago | (#34500600)

See, this is where my conspiracy theories kick in. It's actually a good business model if you make a monitor that only lasts 2-3 years opposed to one that lasts decades.

I have a decade-old LCD and recently got rid of my last decade-old CRT monitor (still have a CRT TV that old). Neither one remains a quality display after a decade of use; the CRT gets dimmer and turning it up to compensate makes the image lousier, and the CCF-backlit LCD backlight gets dimmer as well. I'd expect an LED-backlit LCD to last longer than either one.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye" (1)

Poorcku (831174) | more than 3 years ago | (#34500256)

The new Lenovo Thinkpads have them by default. I have a W510 and connect it through a DisplayPort. They also have vga connectivity. Macs i think have the mini-displayports (could be wrong).

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye" (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34500568)

Dell Latitudes (E6400/6410 at least) have DisplayPort as standard and it works very nicely. They also have VGA.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye" (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34500576)

Also keep in mind that a lot of laptops only have VGA. As far as I know there are no VGA-DVI adapters (DVI-VGA does exist). Since these days 5 year old computers and older fullfil the need of most computer users, don't expect VGA monitors to disappear soon. Companies will cater the needs of those "left behind".

DVI has the support for VGA monitors as part of its spec. It won't work the other way(I think it is a digital, analog thing). What they do need is to phase out HDMI for display port. I have had display ports on all the new Lenovos I get at work.

Conference rooms (4, Interesting)

dimer0 (461593) | more than 3 years ago | (#34499724)

Only place I use VGA anymore (and have used in the past 4-5 years) is for overhead projectors in conference rooms.

Re:Conference rooms (4, Interesting)

snookerhog (1835110) | more than 3 years ago | (#34499764)

i am assuming that shitty old VGA projectors will continue to cause problems for my presentations well beyond 2015, but I will be happy to be proven wrong.

Re:Conference rooms (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34499898)

Have never had any problems with VGA projectors although I've seen people who don't use a Mac running into trouble with them. I don't know why it seems to be so hard to get a Windows or GNU/Linux system running on a decent notebook to talt to a VGA beamer. Some work, but there are quirks, that's why I would never want to use anything but a Mac for a presentation although I have to fiddle with adapters from Mini-DisplayPort to VGA or DVI.

Re:Conference rooms (1)

marcosdumay (620877) | more than 3 years ago | (#34500128)

"I don't know why it seems to be so hard to get a Windows or GNU/Linux system running on a decent notebook to talt to a VGA beamer."

That is because of bad device drivers. Most free drivers for Linux work ok, but the closed ones aren't in any way reliable.

Re:Conference rooms (1)

WaroDaBeast (1211048) | more than 3 years ago | (#34500344)

Do you have any examples of closed drivers not working well? (I'm not trying to challenge you, I just want to know. ;))

I know it's not the same scenario, but hooking up my old laptop (it sports a Geforce Go 6200) with a CRT TV wasn't that hard to do. So... what about them beamers?

Re:Conference rooms (1)

WaroDaBeast (1211048) | more than 3 years ago | (#34500354)

EDIT: Forgot to mention that it's running Ubuntu 10.10.

Re:Conference rooms (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34500380)

"I don't know why it seems to be so hard to get a Windows or GNU/Linux system running on a decent notebook to talt to a VGA beamer."

That is because of bad device drivers. Most free drivers for Linux work ok, but the closed ones aren't in any way reliable.

Maybe, maybe not. I have experienced some counterexamples to the rule that free display drivers work the way they ought to. It ultimately boils down to a lucky combination of the hardware you're using and it's BIOS settings, the operating system and drivers it's running, and the beamer (and it's configuration or lack thereof). The most spectacular failures I've seen were with Windows (XP) laptops. And then there was a time when X11 was not as "userfriendly" as it is today and PC hardware seemed to be generally a lot quirkier. Times have sure changed in the last 10 years or so, but I'm not sure that free display drivers are the important part of the delicate equation of presenting with a laptop. There's always something that goes wrong or does not work the first time, to the point where people even expect the first attempt to get a clear picture of the right screen to fail. After all it is also about the person who is in charge of the system, but really, should we still be forced to mess with display drivers and configuration scripts when all we want to do is give a talk?

Re:Conference rooms (1)

TheRaven64 (641858) | more than 3 years ago | (#34500276)

I've had problems with projectors from my Mac. The problem is that Apple doesn't provide a way of overriding the 'detect displays' feature. In a lot of places, people run really long VGA cables (often chained together) from the projector (all around the edge of the room), so the cable is way out of spec and can't carry the DCC signal back from the projector. This means that the laptop can't detect the display. With Windows and *NIX, you can just provide it with a resolution and refresh. With the Mac, you need to keep trying and hope that eventually a signal manages to get through.

The really depressing thing about all of this is that it's been years since I've seen a projector that doesn't have a DVI port mounted in such a situation, but most of the time the DVI port is not wired up to the presenter desk.

Re:Conference rooms (1)

guruevi (827432) | more than 3 years ago | (#34500496)

Sometimes it's bad drivers and software, most manufacturers think that Windows' controls are not good enough, so provide their own, unique for each card apparently trying to explain how to mirror displays over the phone is hard enough as it is without manufacturers including their own crapware.

Sometimes it's just bad design. If for example you get a brand new Dell with only a VGA port on it for some reason it doesn't detect any external display, so you have to manually enable it after which the main display goes into 320x200. The only way to get it to work is to only enable the internal or the external display (although the drivers say mirror and extend as an availability, it simply doesn't work).

On Mac it's easy to do, just plug it in and it works. Display Preferences can "Detect Displays" in case you have a system that doesn't provide the correct EDID.

Re:Conference rooms (1)

Toe, The (545098) | more than 3 years ago | (#34499800)

Yeah, and AV companies have tons of 50' VGA cables. I am pretty sure I have seen a projector's DVI port run to a computer's DVI port with VGA adapters on both ends to accommodate the VGA cable.

Re:Conference rooms (3, Insightful)

ledow (319597) | more than 3 years ago | (#34500100)

Every school I've ever worked in has VGA equipment as default. PC's, laptop connectors, projectors, monitors, video distribution system and digital signage all have/had VGA connectors. They might have HDMI / DVI *as well* but they all operate on a VGA basis primarily. I can see why - it's simple, it's compatible back to their oldest available machines without having to spend extra money on adapters and convertors (that half the time break or just plain don't work because they bought the wrong pins on their DVI adaptor and expect it to work). The rest of the advantages don't have any bearing - they can get whatever resolution they like going through meters of inexpensive 15-core cable that's been in the walls for years to their projectors over VGA and *not* notice any performance degradation. The only places that I would argue NEED better connectors are those places that are specialist anyway - CAD, Video and huge display signs.

In general use, what advantages does anyone with significant investment in VGA really see from a DVI / HDMI conversion? Hell, I ran a 1024x768 VGA signal over a 75m CAT5e cable with an adaptor (the Cat5e was actually already there, by luck, so wasn't installed with that usage in mind) and that's STILL running a school's main entrance signage on a HUGE TV and nobody cries about the signal quality (the TV also has HDMI, SCART, S-Video, Component, Composite, RF, etc. in and works fine for them all but why bother when the lowest common denominator just works for everyone?).

If something works, that's good enough. Especially if it works on ALL machines you can get (up until now, obviously). If you chose DVI-only then it wouldn't work on older machines without adapters. If you chose HDMI-only, it would work on even less. The transition has taken place so now the other way is beginning to start but it'll be another 3-4 years before schools and large businesses have to go to special efforts (e.g. special order, pick up particular models, or use adaptors) to get VGA inputs/outputs on their devices.

This isn't a shock, like getting rid of PS/2 ports isn't a shock, because there are several alternatives already existing. The problem is that it's an enforced obsolescence of something for not-very-convincing reasons. Give it three years and there'll still be places with VGA convertors everywhere until hardware replacement time is due. VGA isn't a chore to use, or a problem to configure (hell, teachers can manage it - it's just a matter of Fn-Whatever and plugging a cable in). I have *just* been given my first work laptop that had something more than a VGA or S-Video port, and that's because it's really a gaming laptop in order to meet my minimum spec.

Computers will come with VGA. People will buy adaptors for a few years until they buy a non-VGA device on both ends. Then the world will carry on as normal. It wasn't a "disaster" that actually needed to be fixed in the first place - I still have no use for DVI or HDMI devices myself - and thus there are probably millions of people that will have to do something in the future, but they would have to eventually anyway, and it'll be absorbed into their ordinary replacement costs anyway. All it means is that I don't budget quite so much for VGA cables next year and I have to convince my employers that all those perfectly-working interactive whiteboards and projectors really do need, at minimum, a new cable run, a new socket or a new adaptor unless they want me to overhaul the entire place. Big deal, I have to have that conversation about once every six months about *something*.

The sky isn't falling. It wasn't even cracked to start with. We just have this new, brighter, hi-def sky that apparently needs a pair of sunglasses to view properly.

Re:Conference rooms (0)

Lumpy (12016) | more than 3 years ago | (#34500142)

and only for really old conference rooms or ones designed by idiots. Every one I have seen installed over the past 4 years have been HDMI and ethernet. with a vga port available for legacy laptops that converts the VGA to digital for the switcher.

Honestly, if any company is installing VGA only conference rooms, they need to be run out of business.

Re:Conference rooms (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34500530)

We just moved into a huge building built by a university that is synonymous with computing in this country. It has several conference rooms, all served by VGA.

Yes, it could have been built by idiots. Or it could be that all of the employee's laptops have VGA (and many of them, even those ordered last year, like mine, don't have any other display output).

Re:Conference rooms (1)

js_sebastian (946118) | more than 3 years ago | (#34500500)

Only place I use VGA anymore (and have used in the past 4-5 years) is for overhead projectors in conference rooms.

And only people who can fail at projecting their slides worse than a laptop with a 1999 linux distro, are those with a mac and no vga adapter... i've seen this happen plenty of times...

Paving the way for HDCP 2.0 (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34499728)

No VGA unless an adapter is used. That is fine, but I'm sure another side effect will be that VGA monitors will go dark if you want to play HD video. I fear that even DisplayPort monitors likely wouldn't work unless they have the latest (HDCP 2012 or whatever they will call it) standard.

Great cash cow for hardware makers, sucks for consumers -- it likely will end up that if users want to watch new movies, they have to upgrade the computer, video card, and monitor to support the copy protection.

Re:Paving the way for HDCP 2.0 (4, Insightful)

Opportunist (166417) | more than 3 years ago | (#34499776)

it likely will end up that if users want to watch new movies, they have to upgrade the computer, video card, and monitor to support the copy protection.

Proabably some will. Most will just figure out that it's way cheaper to head for TPB or the likes, get movies in a format their hardware supports and that's also more flexible when it comes to the storage medium it can reside on.

Sometimes I wonder what's the advantage of those "copy protected" devices I hear about. I can't see a single good thing in them.

Re:Paving the way for HDCP 2.0 (1, Insightful)

Talderas (1212466) | more than 3 years ago | (#34499862)

You're highly optimistic regarding the average consumer.

What drugs are you consuming?

Re:Paving the way for HDCP 2.0 (1)

gman003 (1693318) | more than 3 years ago | (#34500318)

I'd say that you're highly pessimistic of the average "consumer". Given the choice between a) spend significant amounts of money upgrading everything, b) piracy, or c) just not watching the movie, most would pick B or C. You'll note that most people still use DVDs and lack an HDCP 1.0-compliant set up. Hell, there's still people using VHS, because there's really not much incentive to spend non-trivial amounts of money on upgrading, just to watch recent Hollywood movies.

Re:Paving the way for HDCP 2.0 (1)

Kjella (173770) | more than 3 years ago | (#34499938)

I fear that even DisplayPort monitors likely wouldn't work unless they have the latest (HDCP 2012 or whatever they will call it) standard.

DPCP [wikipedia.org] actually. I'm sure'll they'll want to push everyone there now that HDMI is utterly broken.

Re:Paving the way for HDCP 2.0 (1)

Lumpy (12016) | more than 3 years ago | (#34500188)

That is easily fixed with a hdmi to VGA adapter that also scrubs the useless HDCP out. I have 2 myself and they work great to hook a hdmi bluray player to an analog only plasma display.

Search for HDFury3 to get your own.

Not to mention windfall patent wins (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34500364)

Not to mention windfall patent wins for the owners of the View Denial Units patents.

PS how will they work with Linux or BSD? How about Open Solaris? AIX? HPUX? And so on...?

there are way to many HDMI only cable and sat boxe (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34500446)

there are way to many HDMI only cable and sat boxes out there that will need to be swapped out for that to work.

YOU CAN'T SPELL VAGINA WITHOUT VGA !! (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34499736)

I know, believe me, I've tried !!

VGA = 640x480 or HD15? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34499742)

It sounds like they're talking about the connector?

Re:VGA = 640x480 or HD15? (1)

clone52431 (1805862) | more than 3 years ago | (#34500414)

Correct. They should’ve been more specific.

Damn... (3, Funny)

splerdu (187709) | more than 3 years ago | (#34499820)

I thought we would finally be rid of Spike's Video Game Awards.

Tell me they won't get rid of RF TV jack out too?? (1)

Viol8 (599362) | more than 3 years ago | (#34499864)

Oh , wait...

I'm sticking with VGA (1)

Dynedain (141758) | more than 3 years ago | (#34499950)

On both of my HDTVs (different brands, a cheap-o from 3-4 years ago, and a high-quality one this year) I'm using a VGA cable from the DVI out on my computers. Why? Because whenever I use an DVI to HDMI cable, it results in horrendous overscan instead of displaying at the native screen resolution. This means everything is scaled up, even though the monitor resolution is reported correctly to Windows and OSX, leading to horrible image quality. You can somewhat correct this with system display settings, but this still results in scaling up, to scale down, and you can't fully eliminate the blurriness unless you run at native resolution.

On the other hand, if I use VGA, I get native resolution on both TVs and both computers, with no adjusting required. 1920x1080 is well within the specs that VGA cables can support. I guess display port to VGA is not a problem, but I'll be pissed if HDTV manufacturers force HDMI.

Re:I'm sticking with VGA (1)

Pojut (1027544) | more than 3 years ago | (#34499982)

I'm still trying to figure out why more TV manufacturers don't include an actual DVI port on their products...

Re:I'm sticking with VGA (4, Informative)

NJRoadfan (1254248) | more than 3 years ago | (#34500180)

Because HDMI is electronically the same. What they should be doing is going a menu option to turn off rescaling/overscanning of signals at the display's native resolutions.

Re:I'm sticking with VGA (1)

Lumpy (12016) | more than 3 years ago | (#34500206)

they do it's called HDMI. I hook DVI into a HDMI port all the time.

Re:I'm sticking with VGA (1)

horatio (127595) | more than 3 years ago | (#34500314)

I'm not 100% sure, but the HDTV set I bought just a few months ago came w/ a VGA port, but no DVI ports. I think this is because HDMI and DVI are somehow compatible without conversion?

From wikipedia

Because HDMI is electrically compatible with the signals used by Digital Visual Interface (DVI), no signal conversion is necessary, nor is there a loss of video quality when a DVI-to-HDMI adapter is used.[3]

Re:I'm sticking with VGA (1)

Neil Boekend (1854906) | more than 3 years ago | (#34500408)

On my TV(Samsung) the overscan problem appeared too. It sucked so I chose to mess in the menus of the TV and disable the feature that caused it. I seem to remember setting it to Game Mode. It fixed it. Haven't had a problem since.

Video Cards Will Continue It On (5, Insightful)

Ngarrang (1023425) | more than 3 years ago | (#34500036)

Intel will drop VGA from their chipsets and this will be a boon for video card makers. Video card makers already cater to the those who need better video, or different ports, or more ports, or whatever. As long as monitors include a VGA port, card makers will, too. Intel has the luxury of being able to drop it. It will save them money. They also know that no one is being left behind thanks to card makers. It is a win for both sides.

Re:Video Cards Will Continue It On (1)

Sockatume (732728) | more than 3 years ago | (#34500586)

DVI can carry a VGA signal via an adaptor. You don't need an seperate VGA port on there. I've got a card from as long ago as 2005 that has two DVI ports and came with a matching pair of adaptors.

What next, floppy drives? (3, Insightful)

retech (1228598) | more than 3 years ago | (#34500052)

Seriously, all this fast paced change and incredibly quick adoption of new technology makes my head spin. I just got through building the recommended case out of plywood for my Apple motherboard. Now I find out that I will have to use some fancy new type of video doohickey. Gees Louise!

Standardization of Laptop LCD Interfaces (1)

2themax (681779) | more than 3 years ago | (#34500076)

Hopefully this will mean that it will one day be possible to swap a laptop LCD with another one from a completely different manufacturer.

Right now every laptop manufacturer seems to use different electrical configurations, connectors and EDID.

I'm still using CGA you insensitive clod (1)

Chrisq (894406) | more than 3 years ago | (#34500168)

I'm still using CGA [wikipedia.org] you insensitive clod

Re:I'm still using CGA you insensitive clod (1)

Yvan256 (722131) | more than 3 years ago | (#34500292)

I don't need your low resolution and puke-inducing color palettes, I'd rather use Hercules [wikipedia.org] !

Re:I'm still using CGA you insensitive clod (1)

clone52431 (1805862) | more than 3 years ago | (#34500490)

I actually had a computer with a Hercules graphics adapter and an amber monochrome monitor. I had the manual to my dot-matrix printer and wrote a program in BASIC to put it in graphics mode and print monochrome graphics on it. IIRC it could BLOAD video memory dumps to print, and I included BSAVE hotkey functions in a few of my other programs to save screenshots that I could print out.

Good times...

Bye VGA (1)

SphericalCrusher (739397) | more than 3 years ago | (#34500284)

Even though that's a few years off, it's still an announced end to the VGA video interface. VGA has been dead to me for a few years now, but it's crazy how fast time has flown.

Re:Bye VGA (1)

TheGratefulNet (143330) | more than 3 years ago | (#34500512)

I never know if my system will be a desktop or end up as a server (spare system). in my 'server room' (ha!) I have a bunch of systems that I run mostly headless, but occasionally I have to see some console message or control the boot process or something. maybe the network is not up (stupid persistent.rules.linux, doh!). but I'll need console access and for pc, console != rs232. console = vga and keyboard.

for that reason, I've been buying mostly boards that have at least an onboard vga connector. this lets me use a fancy card for desktop use but later I can remove that card and run the system headless and not even block airflow with a video card at all or use up extra power. onboard video console is almost a MUST HAVE and I don't like it being taken away. its just too useful.

Not gonna happen (1)

enterix (5252) | more than 3 years ago | (#34500356)

I have clearly seen Mother computer on Nostromo using CRT honey text display... none of CRT monitors have DVI... and that is way in the future...

Display port to 5 connector coax adapter? (1)

GaryOlson (737642) | more than 3 years ago | (#34500376)

I still have in storage a backup Sun monitor and cables with 5 coax connectors. Seems the scanning electron microscope controller output only provides that type of connectivity. Anyone have a Display Port adapter for that type of equipment?

its about DRM and control (5, Insightful)

TheGratefulNet (143330) | more than 3 years ago | (#34500452)

analog video is video you can't 'control'. no DRM (or none that is hard).

its not at all surprising people of interest want to kill it.

they are convincing people to abandon spdif, for audio, too. the new kids who are brought up with hdmi think there's nothing wrong with it. in fact, the way they mixed audio and video made the whole combo stream all DRMed. we once had mostly free and clear spdif (scms ignored since it was defeatable easily) and then they upped the bitrate so that spdif toslink and copper paths would not easily (or at all) carry the new digital audio formats (blu ray audio and so on). the new codecs are using bitstream audio for all channels which is HUGE overkill for sound tracks on movies, but its a middle finger from the entertainment industry saying 'at least we get to fill up your disks with more bits than we needed'. effectively a DOS attack from them to you, stealing your disk space when you do direct BD rips or keep BD copies around.

hdmi audio is now in the so-called 'protected path' and that's never a good thing for consumers. spdif audio was never in any protected path and that's why they are trying to kill it.

vga video is also not in a protected path and so they also want to kill it.

it really is all about 'migrating the user away' from the open formats and onto closed, controlled ones.

UGH (1)

canajin56 (660655) | more than 3 years ago | (#34500544)

Great. A VGA Cable costs $5. A DVI cable costs $25, and that's if you order from a really cheap vendor, and you have to pay shipping on that shit. If you go to Best Buy, they have their $50 gold plated one. If that's in stock at all. Usually it's just the $100+ Monster DVI cable...Fucking wonderful.
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