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Ex-Goldman Sachs Programmer Found Guilty

kdawson posted more than 3 years ago | from the something-about-crime-and-time dept.

The Almighty Buck 244

Readers twoallbeefpatties and ngrier wrote in essentially simultaneously about the guilty verdict in the trial of former Goldman Sachs computer programmer Sergey Aleynikov. We've discussed the case several times before. The trial itself was sealed from the public to prevent discussion of GS's high-frequency trading system. Reader ngrier summarizes: "After just three hours of deliberation, the jury found Sergey Aleynikov guilty of intentionally stealing proprietary Goldman Sachs code. As he had admitted copying the code as he was preparing to join a startup competitor in 2009, the case hinged on the intent. He faces up to 10 years in prison."

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244 comments

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mailto: obfuscated e-mail address? (1)

clone52431 (1805862) | more than 3 years ago | (#34518574)

Why not just link to his profile? I’m sure he really wanted all the e-mail anyway...

ngrier? (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34518632)

seriously, it's 2010. The President of the United States is a jigaboo oreo. Can we cut it with the racism already?

Re:ngrier? (0, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34518658)

Maybe it's his name? Nick Grier?

Re:ngrier? (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34518792)

You won't like me when i'm ngry.

Re:ngrier? (1)

StikyPad (445176) | more than 3 years ago | (#34518878)

I'm Ann Grier!

Free : +1, Helpful (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34518640)

Julian Assange [wikileaks.info] !

Yours In Moscow,
Kilgore Trout

Where is wikileaks when you need them (5, Insightful)

entotre (1929174) | more than 3 years ago | (#34518670)

High frequency trading has no social benefit. If wikileaks could leak all source code of that type I would applaud it.

Re:Where is wikileaks when you need them (0, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34518698)

wrong high frequency trading insures liquidity which actually makes stocks more accurately priced.

Re:Where is wikileaks when you need them (5, Insightful)

entotre (1929174) | more than 3 years ago | (#34518758)

It assures that the market maker receives more money for a share than they would otherwise. The buyer then pays more money to a bank that cannot control its risk. I see no benefit in that.

Re:Where is wikileaks when you need them (0)

MichaelKristopeit236 (1956794) | more than 3 years ago | (#34518898)

you obviously don't provide services to bankers or market makers...

Re:Where is wikileaks when you need them (1)

entotre (1929174) | more than 3 years ago | (#34518938)

...because such a person would say what?

Re:Where is wikileaks when you need them (-1, Flamebait)

MichaelKristopeit227 (1956776) | more than 3 years ago | (#34518956)

"here is the money i owe you for your services".

you're an idiot.

Re:Where is wikileaks when you need them (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34519262)

So are you always a cunt or do you sometimes play the role of pond scum when you're feeling like taking the moral high road?

Re:Where is wikileaks when you need them (-1, Flamebait)

MichaelKristopeit231 (1956784) | more than 3 years ago | (#34519338)

ur mum's face are always a cunt.

why do you cower? what are you afraid of?

you're completely pathetic.

Re:Where is wikileaks when you need them (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34519342)

In sympathy, Mr. Kristopeit, I'd like to say we're all sorry you're losing your wife. Or your job. Or whatever it is that has you constantly running out here in the middle of the street and calling us all idiots. We see you on all these threads, and we're collectively becoming very tired of you.

Re:Where is wikileaks when you need them (-1, Troll)

MichaelKristopeit234 (1956790) | more than 3 years ago | (#34519402)

wrong wrong wrong. i work from home, earn in 95th percentile... so does my faithful and beautiful wife, my children are healthy, my dogs are loyal, and all of my guns are properly maintained and fully loaded in the 2 story, 4 bedroom house i paid cash for.

who is "we"?

you are NOTHING.

why do you cower? what are you afraid of?

you're completely pathetic.

Re:Where is wikileaks when you need them (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34519516)

I'll be sure to take pics of your whore of a wife when she's sucking my cock in the bathroom at McDonald's for lunch money like she does every other day. I'm guessing you fell for the "it's just a fever blister" story we concocted. Do you like tasting my cum when she kisses you? I told her that she needed to brush her damn teeth but she said that the cardboard box you live in isn't big enough for that, funny she said close to the same thing about your penis. She also said you like to lie about your "children" and that they're really just some turds you keep in a box and sing to when you're panhandling hoping that others will feel sorry for your mental illness. How pathetic are you to be lying to us like that?

Re:Where is wikileaks when you need them (0)

MichaelKristopeit236 (1956794) | more than 3 years ago | (#34519554)

present yourself to me; admit what you've done, then i will bring upon you the ultimate punishment for your transgressions.

cower some more, feeb.

you're completely pathetic.

Re:Where is wikileaks when you need them (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34519530)

Many people -do- fear others with borderline personality disorder. I don't blame him.

Re:Where is wikileaks when you need them (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34518964)

Right, you mean the people who fucked a bunch of people out of their retirement savings playing these bullshit games so they could buy another yacht or squirrel away a few more billions?

I'm sorry, what's the social benefit there?

Re:Where is wikileaks when you need them (-1, Troll)

MichaelKristopeit228 (1956778) | more than 3 years ago | (#34519040)

you obviously don't build yachts for a living... or likely provide any other product or service that a person who just squirreled away a few more billion dollars might be interested in.

you're more than sorry... you're an idiot.

why do you cower? what are you afraid of?

you're completely pathetic.

Re:Where is wikileaks when you need them (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34519104)

Go easy on the poor fellow. His critical thinking abilities have been destroyed by the American public education system, and further dulled by years of dumbed-down television programming. The best he can manage is to parrot HuffPo talking points...

Re:Where is wikileaks when you need them (0)

MichaelKristopeit228 (1956778) | more than 3 years ago | (#34519234)

why do you cower? what are you afraid of?

you're completely pathetic.

Re:Where is wikileaks when you need them (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34519542)

The 9000 faces of MichaelKristopeit are jackasses to everybody no matter what their opinions are. He'll go easy on nobody, right or wrong, agree or disagree, in driving forth his insane troll agenda.

Re:Where is wikileaks when you need them (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34519374)

Oh, I see, you really are a sniveling cunt. Tell me, do you have to rinse with sewage to get the taste of billionaire cum out of your mouth, or do you use your buddies' assholes from which to drink the cum?

Re:Where is wikileaks when you need them (0)

MichaelKristopeit236 (1956794) | more than 3 years ago | (#34519416)

ur mum's face really are a sniveling cunt.

you choose to fantasize about me engaged in homosexual sex acts? what drives you to have such fantasies?

why do you cower? what are you afraid of?

you're completely pathetic.

Re:Where is wikileaks when you need them (4, Insightful)

geekoid (135745) | more than 3 years ago | (#34518962)

which is why ever trade, buy sell, no exceptions should be taxed .01% we could remove the payroll tax, no taxes at all fro anyone under 200K, and get back on top with out education programs.

Wall street impacts our lives a lot. Everyone ones like,. High Freq trading can cause market crashes by mistake.

Re:Where is wikileaks when you need them (5, Insightful)

Yvanhoe (564877) | more than 3 years ago | (#34519140)

And I may add that his kind of claims is made by people who "know nothing about the market", like Warren Buffet...
As a reminder, he asked for higher taxes for high incomes and to take measures against short-time speculation, which he apparently don't really like :
"We believe that according the name 'investors' to institutions that trade actively is like calling someone who repeatedly engages in one-night stands a 'romantic.' "

Actually, if you guys want to see crazy (1)

Cryacin (657549) | more than 3 years ago | (#34519598)

Try spread betting on for size. It's like gambling the farm at the casino, only for higher stakes!

see:
http://www.igindex.co.uk/ [igindex.co.uk]

Re:Where is wikileaks when you need them (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34518978)

I think we can agree that it provides a benefit of liquidity at the cost of buyers paying more.
This is exactly the same principle that scalpers use for concert and sports tickets.

Re:Where is wikileaks when you need them (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34519092)

I think we can agree that it provides a benefit of liquidity at the cost of buyers paying more.
This is exactly the same principle that scalpers use for concert and sports tickets.

but could you then argue that it provides a better price for the seller ?????

Re:Where is wikileaks when you need them (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34519408)

I have very little background, but I have always wondered why market makers are allowed to arbitrage. Seems like a definite conflict of interest.

Re:Where is wikileaks when you need them (1)

Yvanhoe (564877) | more than 3 years ago | (#34519088)

True. The price the market set is more precisely set to the price the market sets.

The ability of the market to set its price to something meaningful is questionned not only by leftists but also by Nobel prizes of economy.

Re:Where is wikileaks when you need them (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34519448)

Bullshit, HFT doesn't magically make stocks appear where none are being traded. All it does is exploit fuckups who punch the wrong number in their computer and sell too low or bid too high. That's why it's a race to see who can get the fastest connection to the exchange: whoever spots the error first wins big.

Re:Where is wikileaks when you need them (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34518702)

High frequency trading has no social benefit.

Please don't speak like an authority in matters that you clearly know jack shit about. Thanks.

Re:Where is wikileaks when you need them (5, Insightful)

hedwards (940851) | more than 3 years ago | (#34518952)

No, he's correct about that. High frequency trading and technical analysis are trading strategies that don't depend upon the underlying company to make money. High frequency trading is worse because of the way that it works.

Unlike technical analysis which relies extensively on group think, high freqency trading, relies upon the knowledge of what the future price for a share is going to be and then slams in a trade that will, assuming it gets there in time, result in guaranteed profit.

It's basically a continuation of a practice which used to be pretty common. Stock brokers would have access to the price of company shares the next day and would be able to act upon that information in a way that the general public wouldn't.

The TL;DR version, high frequency trading is parasitic and needs to be stopped for the good of the market.

Re:Where is wikileaks when you need them (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34519306)

That sounds like an open and shut case of hacking the system. How is this not illegal?

Re:Where is wikileaks when you need them (3, Insightful)

igreaterthanu (1942456) | more than 3 years ago | (#34519348)

high freqency trading, relies upon the knowledge of what the future price for a share is going to be and then slams in a trade that will, assuming it gets there in time, result in guaranteed profit.

(emphasis mine.)

The guaranteed profit part is only a very small subset of HFT.

Most of the time it only takes part in transactions which has some expected gain, but by no means always makes said gain. By doing this millions of times per day, in theory, it averages out.

Just like a bank will borrow people's money and loan it other people, at a profit, thus making the market more liquid by matching borrowers and sellers and taking the risk on themselves; these HFT traders buy and sell stock, providing liquidity and taking on risk themselves for a small profit (which gets multiplied by a large factor when done million times)

Sure it's not ideal, but can you come up with a better system?

Re:Where is wikileaks when you need them (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34518764)

High frequency trading has no social benefit. If wikileaks could leak all source code of that type I would applaud it.

Is the market a vehicle for "social benefit"? If it is, why doesn't the market take a "rake" from all the profits to use towards "social benefit"?

(hint: because it isn't a vehicle for "social benefit)

Re:Where is wikileaks when you need them (4, Interesting)

immakiku (777365) | more than 3 years ago | (#34518784)

High frequency trading actually facilitates more accurate pricing of securities because of the liquidity it introduces to the market. The benefit of accurate pricing is hard to explain fully without getting deeper into the economics of markets, but it's definitely there. The animosity you raised is probably due to a perceived lack of contribution (no tangible products produced). But actually, facilitating better pricing will route investment into areas that deserve it (e.g. to the guy who produces 2 potatoes per unit resource instead of 1.5 potatoes). The sum effect of these actions is a raised social utility.

Re:Where is wikileaks when you need them (1)

immakiku (777365) | more than 3 years ago | (#34518806)

By the way, whether there's a better way of accomplishing the same thing is questionable, but it's not completely a useless idea.

In a normal market (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34518910)

High frequency trading actually facilitates more accurate pricing of securities because of the liquidity it introduces to the market.

That is only true in a normal market. BUT, when the markets crash, all those computers jump on board and sell thereby eliminating liquidity and that's why the markets have "circuit breakers".

Free markets only work when within narrow bands. The last couple of years has proven that to be true.

Re:Where is wikileaks when you need them (5, Insightful)

hedwards (940851) | more than 3 years ago | (#34519006)

You've been lied to. It's a bit like saying that the guy with the X-ray specs who wants to play poker is good for the game because it means that you don't have to wait for somebody else to fill out the quartet.

The problem is that while he does indeed have money, he also has X-ray specs which allow for him to have an unfair advantage over the other players.

High frequency trading is ultimately a scourge, the mechanic they use is a bit of sleight of hand to take advantage of momentary price fluctuations which leave them in the position where they're able to slam in an order for a guaranteed future profit, where other investors are locked out. It's something that I could do as well, if I were told what the price would be in the future and had the means of slamming in a bid in time to capitalize on it. There's little value to that sort of high finance piracy.

Even without that behavior, there's plenty of liquidity, the high frequency trading tends to target portions of the market, not the market as a whole, and even smaller trading stocks, there's typically plenty of liquidity for reasonable players.

Re:Where is wikileaks when you need them (5, Insightful)

timeOday (582209) | more than 3 years ago | (#34519624)

The problem is that while he does indeed have money, he also has X-ray specs which allow for him to have an unfair advantage over the other players.

To emphasize this point, here are quotes from an article last year [nytimes.com] on this same story:

Loopholes in market rules give high-speed investors an early glance at how others are trading... some of those orders were most likely routed to a collection of high-frequency traders for just 30 milliseconds -- 0.03 seconds -- in what are known as flash orders. While markets are supposed to ensure transparency by showing orders to everyone simultaneously, a loophole in regulations allows marketplaces like Nasdaq to show traders some orders ahead of everyone else in exchange for a fee.

Sounds like plain old insider trading to me. Maybe worse, since it's the market-maker who's taking kickbacks.

Re:Where is wikileaks when you need them (1)

drsmithy (35869) | more than 3 years ago | (#34519192)

High frequency trading actually facilitates more accurate pricing of securities because of the liquidity it introduces to the market. The benefit of accurate pricing is hard to explain fully without getting deeper into the economics of markets, but it's definitely there. The animosity you raised is probably due to a perceived lack of contribution (no tangible products produced). But actually, facilitating better pricing will route investment into areas that deserve it (e.g. to the guy who produces 2 potatoes per unit resource instead of 1.5 potatoes). The sum effect of these actions is a raised social utility.

I want to know what can change about a company in a second that can meaningfully adjust its value, that wouldn't also have the same result on a timescale of hours (or even days).

Re:Where is wikileaks when you need them (4, Insightful)

Yvanhoe (564877) | more than 3 years ago | (#34519226)

The value of a company doesn't change in a few milliseconds instantly. Making investment decisions on so short scales is not really investments. There has been many voices to call for a change in the way transactions are processed. Instead of a first-arrived-first-served approach, using a bigger time step, like a second or a minute (personally I don't see why a whole day would be bad) and randomizing the orders would smoothen the values and iron out the speculation.

It really looks like high-frequency trading doesn't improve the accuracy of prices. It increases its precisions but we don't really have a way to measure if it is meaningful. Converging to a precise number doesn't guarantee that this number isn't arbitrary. To be fair, it is hard to imagine that these small scale variations at very high frequency is anything more than noise.

Re:Where is wikileaks when you need them (5, Insightful)

vux984 (928602) | more than 3 years ago | (#34519238)

High frequency trading actually facilitates more accurate pricing of securities because of the liquidity it introduces to the market.

Liquidity has value. But HFT algorithms front running trades that would already complete without them aren't providing liquidity.

The benefit of accurate pricing is hard to explain fully without getting deeper into the economics of markets,

If market pricing were to consistently deviate from actual pricing by measurable amounts this would be relevant. But HFT algorithms front running trades to arbitrage fractional cents aren't providing any benefit whosoever.

The animosity you raised is probably due to a perceived lack of contribution (no tangible products produced).

We perceive a lack of contribution because there is a lack of contribution.

But actually, facilitating better pricing will route investment into areas that deserve it (e.g. to the guy who produces 2 potatoes per unit resource instead of 1.5 potatoes).

Sure. If pricing was that far out of whack. But we don't really need to "facilitate routing investment" to the guy that produces 1.50042 potatoes instead of the resource that produces 1.50041. The only person who cares about that difference is trying to profit on that 0.00001 delta.

The sum effect of these actions is a raised social utility.

The sum effect of these actions is parasitic to actual investors leading to a diminished "social utility". (whatever that is supposed to mean.)

Re:Where is wikileaks when you need them (1)

Cryacin (657549) | more than 3 years ago | (#34519614)

I believe "social utility" is another way to say public restroom. Where his argument would wind up with a more thoughtful person.

Re:Where is wikileaks when you need them (1)

mark72005 (1233572) | more than 3 years ago | (#34518976)

(puzzled look)

So here is the value – they provide liquidit (1)

alexander_686 (957440) | more than 3 years ago | (#34519130)

Go back 20 years when we had market makers. They would make 12.5 cents on every trade. It was a de facto monopoly.

HFT have replaced the formal market makers. They, on average, make a small fraction of a penny on every trade. They make money on huge volumes. The spreads have dropped and liquidity has increased.

So
Increased Liquidity - Fact
Decreased Spreads – Fact
Increased daily volatility? - Probably

Re:Where is wikileaks when you need them (1)

yuhong (1378501) | more than 3 years ago | (#34519350)

High frequency trading has no social benefit. If wikileaks could leak all source code of that type I would applaud it.

I would not consider that an excuse to leak.

Good grief. (1)

Frosty Piss (770223) | more than 3 years ago | (#34518686)

Again, like the lady in a previous "story" today, this guy clearly committed a crime, was busted, got convicted.

News? Not really.

Neither of these are nearly as "tasty" as the ass-hat who worked for SF...

Re:Good grief. (0, Troll)

Jeremiah Cornelius (137) | more than 3 years ago | (#34518720)

We're no strangers to love. You know the rules and so do I.
A full commitment's what I'm thinking of. You wouldn't get this from any other guy.
I just wanna tell you how I'm feeling. Gotta make you understand.

Never gonna give you up, never gonna let you down, never gonna run around and desert you.
Never gonna make you cry, never gonna say goodbye, never gonna tell a lie and hurt you.

We've known each other for so long Your heart's been aching but You're too shy to say it
Inside we both know what's been going on We know the game and we're gonna play it
And if you ask me how I'm feeling Don't tell me you're too blind to see

Never gonna give you up, never gonna let you down, never gonna run around and desert you.
Never gonna make you cry, never gonna say goodbye, never gonna tell a lie and hurt you.

Never gonna give you up, never gonna let you down, never gonna run around and desert you.
Never gonna make you cry, never gonna say goodbye, never gonna tell a lie and hurt you.

(Ooh, give you up) (Ooh, give you up) (Ooh) Never gonna give, never gonna give
(Give you up) (Ooh) Never gonna give, never gonna give (Give you up)

We've know each other for so long Your heart's been aching but You're too shy to say it
Inside we both know what's been going on We know the game and we're gonna play it
I just wanna tell you how I'm feeling Gotta make you understand

Never gonna give you up, never gonna let you down, never gonna run around and desert you.
Never gonna make you cry, never gonna say goodbye, never gonna tell a lie and hurt you.

Never gonna give you up, never gonna let you down, never gonna run around and desert you.
Never gonna make you cry, never gonna say goodbye, never gonna tell a lie and hurt you.

Never gonna give you up, never gonna let you down, never gonna run around and desert you.
Never gonna make you cry, never gonna say goodbye, never gonna tell a lie and hurt you.

Never gonna give you up, never gonna let you down, never gonna run around and desert you.
Never gonna make you cry, never gonna say goodbye, never gonna tell a lie and hurt you.

Never gonna give you up, never gonna let you down, never gonna run around and desert you.
Never gonna make you cry, never gonna say goodbye, never gonna tell a lie and hurt you.

Never gonna give you up, never gonna let you down, never gonna run around and desert you.
Never gonna make you cry, never gonna say goodbye, never gonna tell a lie and hurt you.

Never gonna give you up, never gonna let you down, never gonna run around and desert you.
Never gonna make you cry, never gonna say goodbye, never gonna tell a lie and hurt you.

Never gonna give you up, never gonna let you down, never gonna run around and desert you.
Never gonna make you cry, never gonna say goodbye, never gonna tell a lie and hurt you.

Never gonna give you up, never gonna let you down, never gonna run around and desert you.
Never gonna make you cry, never gonna say goodbye, never gonna tell a lie and hurt you.

Never gonna give you up, never gonna let you down, never gonna run around and desert you.
Never gonna make you cry, never gonna say goodbye, never gonna tell a lie and hurt you.

Never gonna give you up, never gonna let you down, never gonna run around and desert you.
Never gonna make you cry, never gonna say goodbye, never gonna tell a lie and hurt you.

Never gonna give you up, never gonna let you down, never gonna run around and desert you.
Never gonna make you cry, never gonna say goodbye, never gonna tell a lie and hurt you.

Never gonna give you up, never gonna let you down, never gonna run around and desert you.
Never gonna make you cry, never gonna say goodbye, never gonna tell a lie and hurt you.

Never gonna give you up, never gonna let you down, never gonna run around and desert you.
Never gonna make you cry, never gonna say goodbye, never gonna tell a lie and hurt you.

Never gonna give you up, never gonna let you down, never gonna run around and desert you.
Never gonna make you cry, never gonna say goodbye, never gonna tell a lie and hurt you.

Never gonna give you up, never gonna let you down, never gonna run around and desert you.
Never gonna make you cry, never gonna say goodbye, never gonna tell a lie and hurt you.

Never gonna give you up, never gonna let you down, never gonna run around and desert you.
Never gonna make you cry, never gonna say goodbye, never gonna tell a lie and hurt you.

Never gonna give you up, never gonna let you down, never gonna run around and desert you.
Never gonna make you cry, never gonna say goodbye, never gonna tell a lie and hurt you.

Never gonna give you up, never gonna let you down, never gonna run around and desert you.
Never gonna make you cry, never gonna say goodbye, never gonna tell a lie and hurt you.

Never gonna give you up, never gonna let you down, never gonna run around and desert you.
Never gonna make you cry, never gonna say goodbye, never gonna tell a lie and hurt you.

Never gonna give you up, never gonna let you down, never gonna run around and desert you.
Never gonna make you cry, never gonna say goodbye, never gonna tell a lie and hurt you.

Never gonna give you up, never gonna let you down, never gonna run around and desert you.
Never gonna make you cry, never gonna say goodbye, never gonna tell a lie and hurt you.

Never gonna give you up, never gonna let you down, never gonna run around and desert you.
Never gonna make you cry, never gonna say goodbye, never gonna tell a lie and hurt you.

Never gonna give you up, never gonna let you down, never gonna run around and desert you.
Never gonna make you cry, never gonna say goodbye, never gonna tell a lie and hurt you.

Never gonna give you up, never gonna let you down, never gonna run around and desert you.
Never gonna make you cry, never gonna say goodbye, never gonna tell a lie and hurt you.

Never gonna give you up, never gonna let you down, never gonna run around and desert you.
Never gonna make you cry, never gonna say goodbye, never gonna tell a lie and hurt you.

Never gonna give you up, never gonna let you down, never gonna run around and desert you.
Never gonna make you cry, never gonna say goodbye, never gonna tell a lie and hurt you.

Never gonna give you up, never gonna let you down, never gonna run around and desert you.
Never gonna make you cry, never gonna say goodbye, never gonna tell a lie and hurt you.

Never gonna give you up, never gonna let you down, never gonna run around and desert you.
Never gonna make you cry, never gonna say goodbye, never gonna tell a lie and hurt you.

Never gonna give you up, never gonna let you down, never gonna run around and desert you.
Never gonna make you cry, never gonna say goodbye, never gonna tell a lie and hurt you.

Re:Good grief. (5, Insightful)

timeOday (582209) | more than 3 years ago | (#34518754)

But it proves once again, wealth is not about creating value, but owning it.

Re:Good grief. (-1, Troll)

MichaelKristopeit235 (1956792) | more than 3 years ago | (#34518794)

would it be a crime to murder someone that distributed multiple false claims that someone was raped by a religious figure, beat their wife and molested children?

would that be tasty?

what if the murdered forced the gun into the defamatory liar's mouth first and asked them to repent... what would that taste like?

would you look forward to such a sensation?

you're an ignorant hypocrite.

cower some more, feeb.

you're completely pathetic.

Re:Good grief. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34518924)

I don't know what all this is about, but you come across as a mentally unstable person making threats. And you used your own ID? Are you incompetent or ignorant, or both? Making threats can get you into real trouble. Go cool off and think twice before you post.

Re:Good grief. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34518984)

Not only does he use his own id, he has hundreds of them! Check the history for funny.

Re:Good grief. (-1, Troll)

MichaelKristopeit229 (1956780) | more than 3 years ago | (#34519010)

making false claims that an individual haa been raped by a religious figure, beats their wife, and molests children can get you murdered.

JUSTICE WILL FIND YOU.

ur mum's face come across as a mentally unstable person making threats.

why do you cower? what are you afraid of?

you're completely pathetic.

Re:Good grief. (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34519230)

You're completely insane.

Even if you're doing all this for lolz, the amount of time you spend arguing with yourself shows you've had a psychotic break and need serious, professional help.

Re:Good grief. (-1, Flamebait)

MichaelKristopeit231 (1956784) | more than 3 years ago | (#34519260)

ur mum's face're completely insane.

why don't you charge for you diagnosis? did anyone ask it? is this how you spend your time? randomly spewing ignorant lies that were never asked of you?

why do you cower? what are you afraid of?

you're completely pathetic.

Re:Good grief. (0)

Frosty Piss (770223) | more than 3 years ago | (#34519318)

You do understand that you come across as about age 14? Your comments are juvenile - you do know what "juvenile" means, right?

Most boys your age are out looking for girls, so either you either you are not "interested" in girls, or you're a fat 40 year old guy sitting in your momma's basement trolling Slashdot and masturbating to porn. Which is it?

Re:Good grief. (0)

MichaelKristopeit233 (1956788) | more than 3 years ago | (#34519364)

ur mum's facer comments are juvenile.

you know what PARANOID RECLUSE DEFAMATORY LIAR means... no?

you spend your days fantasizing about religious figures raping me and violence towards women and children.

you falsely accuse others of such acts.

JUSTICE WILL FIND YOU.

why do you cower? what are you afraid of?

you're completely pathetic.

i live at 4513 brittany ct, eau claire, wi. 54701.

present yourself to me; admit what you've done, then i will bring upon you the ultimate punishment for your transgressions.

Re:Good grief. (-1)

MichaelKristopeit236 (1956794) | more than 3 years ago | (#34518820)

tick tock tick tock tick tock tick tock tick tock tick tock tick tock tick tock tick tock tick tock tick tock tick tock tick tock tick tock tick tock tick tock tick tock tick tock tick tock tick tock tick tock tick tock

JUSTICE WILL FIND YOU.

cower some more, feeb.

you're completely pathetic.

Re:Good grief. (1, Insightful)

anton_kg (1079811) | more than 3 years ago | (#34518916)

the only missing portion is "sealed from public". The HFT is illegal by itself. The GS business (bonuses, etc) is legal rape. But they are f#$ing powerful and want to show everyone: "don't mess with us or end up in jail for long".

Re:Good grief. (1)

MichaelKristopeit131 (1934226) | more than 3 years ago | (#34518988)

cower some more, feeb.

you're completely pathetic.

Steal from a company, go to jail... (5, Insightful)

spagthorpe (111133) | more than 3 years ago | (#34518696)

Steal from a few hundred million, get fat bonuses....

Re:Steal from a company, go to jail... (1)

MacGyver2210 (1053110) | more than 3 years ago | (#34518940)

Somebody get this man a baby!

Smooth Criminals (5, Insightful)

MoldySpore (1280634) | more than 3 years ago | (#34518728)

Goldman Sachs are the criminals. Why aren't they all on trial too? All this guy did was steal a little code. They've been robbing their customers for years.

Re:Smooth Criminals (4, Insightful)

pyite (140350) | more than 3 years ago | (#34519038)

They've been robbing their customers for years.

Their customers, who are by and large not idiots, would obviously leave them if this were the case. Yet, they do not leave. They realize the simple truth that Goldman is extremely good at what they do and that includes helping customers make money.

Just because you don't understand something doesn't make it bad.

Re:Smooth Criminals (2)

hedwards (940851) | more than 3 years ago | (#34519046)

That's my thought. There's an awful lot of insider trading and trading on future prices that goes on at hedge funds. There may or may not be any that do it via legitimate smarts, but there's a lot of them that do things which intentionally distort the market.

I'd personally feel very differently if Wall Street was anything other than a bunch of speculators that are fine losing all of your money even as they give themselves bonuses for handling the money.

It's going to get a lot worse before it gets better. There's still a huge shift of pension plans from defined benefits to defined contribution plans, and that almost certainly will mean more individual investors to get taken to the cleaners by Wall Street firms.

proprietary != non-obvious (0)

MichaelKristopeit230 (1956782) | more than 3 years ago | (#34518730)

if action is buy, buy and increase price.
else if action is sell, sell and decrease price.

the only thing proprietary was goldman sach's ability to inject such a trading system with the lowest possible latency at the lowest levels of most trading markets creating the highest frequency potential.

Good God (5, Insightful)

genfail (777943) | more than 3 years ago | (#34518816)

Ten years for just stealing a little code. Damn you would think he gambled with investor funds on risky phantom products that sent the whole economy into a tail spin. But I guess that's what they call their business model.

Illegal - yes. Stealing - no. (1)

zero_out (1705074) | more than 3 years ago | (#34518830)

To steal, one must take something from another's possession, and deprive them of its use. What he did was illegal, as the jury found. However, if all he did was copy the code, as opposed to destroying the originals and all versioned/archived/backed-up copies, then he didn't steal anything. The MAFIAA (Music and Film Industry Associations of America) would like you to think that what this man did was steal, because it's a short hop to apply the same logic from code to music and film. They'd be wrong.

Re:Illegal - yes. Stealing - no. (1)

sumdumass (711423) | more than 3 years ago | (#34518920)

Look up conversion. More specifically, theft by conversion.

Once you think you understand it, read about it again, then come back and talk to us.

Re:Illegal - yes. Stealing - no. (1)

geekoid (135745) | more than 3 years ago | (#34518998)

Which part of this is theft by conversion? Just for kicks I walked across the hall and cracked a legal book to refresh my memory. I don't see how this applies.

Re:Illegal - yes. Stealing - no. (1)

sumdumass (711423) | more than 3 years ago | (#34519060)

No you didn't. Theft by Conversion is the unlawful use of another's property for personal gain whether it deprives someone of property or decreases any value or not.

Re:Illegal - yes. Stealing - no. (1)

bmo (77928) | more than 3 years ago | (#34519356)

Theft by conversion *does* deprive the owner of his own property.

Because for the conversion to take place *someone else* must have possession of that property.

For example:

SCO sells licenses for SCO Unix. They do this on behalf of Novell.
They are to remit 100 percent of the fee to Novell, and Novell is to give them 5 percent as the seller's fee.
SCO proceeds to hold on to every fucking license fee, including the ridiculous ones they sold to Microsoft and Sun.
SCO holds on to these through bankruptcy. Using the money to fund its lawsuits and operating expenses.

Ergo, theft by conversion. Novell is out the money it rightly deserves. It has been *deprived of ownership* by SCO.

http://dictionary.law.com/Default.aspx?selected=346 [law.com]

conversion
n. a civil wrong (tort) in which one converts another's property to his/her own use, which is a fancy way of saying "steals." Conversion includes treating another's goods as one's own, holding onto such property which accidentally comes into the convertor's (taker's) hands, or purposely giving the impression the assets belong to him/her. This gives the true owner the right to sue for his/her own property or the value and loss of use of it, as well as going to law enforcement authorities since conversion usually includes the crime of theft.
See also: theft

--
BMO

Re:Illegal - yes. Stealing - no. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34519044)

I suggest you do the same as Theft by Conversion does not exist. Specifically you mean 'Criminal Conversion' which is not theft.

Re:Illegal - yes. Stealing - no. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34519164)

I suggest you learn a little more about the law for you are wrong. Not only is it a law, it's specifically encoded as a law titled Theft by conversion in many states.

Re:Illegal - yes. Stealing - no. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34519370)

Oops, I suggest you learn a LOT more about law because if you look at the USC you will see there is no such thing as 'Theft by Conversion' nor was he indicted or convicted on such nonsense.

This isn't a state case where their made up backwater bullshit would apply, this is a federal case where the big kids get to play, now go home.

Re:Illegal - yes. Stealing - no. (1)

BradleyUffner (103496) | more than 3 years ago | (#34518950)

To steal, one must take something from another's possession, and deprive them of its use. What he did was illegal, as the jury found. However, if all he did was copy the code, as opposed to destroying the originals and all versioned/archived/backed-up copies, then he didn't steal anything. The MAFIAA (Music and Film Industry Associations of America) would like you to think that what this man did was steal, because it's a short hop to apply the same logic from code to music and film. They'd be wrong.

Yes, he DID deprive them of something. He deprived them of their ability to control the source code that they owned.

Re:Illegal - yes. Stealing - no. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34519048)

you are right, he "borrowed" it.

Wall street sucks (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34518994)

As if 10 year potential for stealing code was not rediculous enough what it's for is really depressing. This is code not for a secret missle system or sub prop design. It is code to enable high frequency trading.

An activity which serves no useful purpose of any kind except to suck money out of the system with nothing to show for it in return. The industry can take their liquidity argument and shove it.

How many automated stock disasters must occur before before the lobbying dollars necessary to maintain this shit loose their effectiveness?

high frequency trading needs to be outlawed anyway (5, Insightful)

circletimessquare (444983) | more than 3 years ago | (#34518996)

high frequency trading demands you have the screamiest servers the shortest fibre optic hop away from wall street. meaning it turns what should be an egalitarian marketplace of equals into one where those with the most power and resources are able to extract a tax of sorts on regular traders by engaging in high speed tricks

just put a "heartbeat" into the market: all trades operate on a FIFO queue that is released on a regular interval: every 3 seconds, every second, every 10 seconds, every 500 milliseconds, whatever: the point simply being that no trades can operate faster than this "heartbeat", thereby putting all trades on an equal footing

otherwise, the stock market will be abused by its richest players. when that happens, small time and mom and pop stock market traders will feel abused, and opt out, and the market will ossify into corruption

the point of a well-regulated marketplace is to keep the marketplace fair and healthy and a place of equals. so deny the powerful this unfair leverage and unfair ability to siphon off a tax on all other traders just by doing little fast tricky trades that have no real value whatsoever other than to take money from the slower smaller players

Re:high frequency trading needs to be outlawed any (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34519196)

the point of hft is to scalp the market all day every day, in effect ripping off mom and pop investors of a few pennies every time they execute a transaction. I realize the big boys pay a lot to keep the lie alive but please post your b.s elsewhere.

Re:high frequency trading needs to be outlawed any (1)

circletimessquare (444983) | more than 3 years ago | (#34519242)

i don't understand your post. you agree with my description of the problem, but call my solution bullshit. why? because you shouldn't fight corruption, you should just accept it? is that your ignorant attitude?

Re:high frequency trading needs to be outlawed any (2, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34519244)

so basically you're saying trading should be more like a turn-based RPG and less like a twitchy FPS?

Re:high frequency trading needs to be outlawed any (2, Interesting)

circletimessquare (444983) | more than 3 years ago | (#34519340)

LOL

i'm showing my age, but there was a mod some maniac made over ten years ago of id's original doom fps. you were let loose in a level full of monsters, and each monster correlated with a process running on your computer. when you shot a monster (with a shotgun, preferably), the process associated with that sprite was terminated as well. brilliant, and insane

now i want to see someone write a mod where you execute trades instead of processes. that would brilliant and insane x10

i think on the original mod there was a label floating above each sprite's head, so you knew what process you were terminating. although, it would be more fun if there was no label, so you wouldn't know if you were going to freeze your os, crash the system, or just end some minor helper service. likewise, with a trader fps mod, you should just go into the level with a shotgun and a bunch of sprites, not knowing if you blowing a couple of thousand on a major amount of a tanking stock, or making $10 off a useless tiny put option trade, or whatever

Re:high frequency trading needs to be outlawed any (2)

xquark (649804) | more than 3 years ago | (#34519266)

The Taiwan and Korea markets are like that, the only thing such delays achieve is to decrease the total amount of shares traded in a day, hence reduces the overall market value and shifts wealth to other markets that do allow continuous unfettered trading.

What you don't realise is that a great deal of shares/commodities these days are being traded in dark pools and mini electronic markets, those traditional NYSE or NASDAQ style exchanges are looking to be a thing of the past and only being used as a reporting medium for the exchange of shares from external/independent markets.

I say let the markets be as efficient as they can be.

Re:high frequency trading needs to be outlawed any (3, Interesting)

circletimessquare (444983) | more than 3 years ago | (#34519398)

efficient?

you are basically advocating for shady marketplaces that are rigged by their most entrenched players. if the markets are not egalitarian, the markets are abusive, and you are cursing the entire concept of trading to the realm of corruption, which will decrease the overall market value a heck of a lot more than what taiwan and korea are suffering, i assure you

for a market to be truly free, that is, a meeting place of equals, it must be in the full light of day and be highly regulated. truly "free" marketplaces, that is, without any regulation at all, are, as a rule, dominated, abused, and taxed by their largest most powerful players

a marketplace that is regulated and transparent and well-policed and well-understood, is a marketplace that attracts investors with confidence and trust in what they are getting into. your dark marketplaces meanwhile are more a deal of who you know. the definition of nepotism and all manner of ills that befall fools that get involved in such financial chicanery

your way is the way of financial doom. you are ignorant of financial history. the fate of such dark marketplaces is well understood and oft repeated throughout history

Re:high frequency trading needs to be outlawed any (3, Informative)

cosm (1072588) | more than 3 years ago | (#34519308)

Very true. The concept of value investing has been long lost to the market. If any of you are traders, or if you are looking at getting into trading, I recommend checking out the book Margin of Safety: Risk-Averse Value Investing Strategies for the Thoughtful Investor [amazon.com] by Seth A. Klarman.

I read this book, and after was astounded with how true it rings, not because of the money I earned (I don't even invest), but because of the insights it provides into the greediness and irrational nature of the market.

To summarize the book, buys stocks based on what you think their value is, which actually requires doing a value analysis on the stock and buying when it is undervalued, and selling when it is overvalued, as to just getting sucked into the latest get rich quick stock or bond at the height of its balloon, only to have it pop.

Good luck finding a copy under $500 dollars. This is a rarity. It was once deemed the most stolen book from libraries in the world by the NYT. [yahoo.com]

But I may have seen it available on torrents before :)

Re:high frequency trading needs to be outlawed any (2)

MoonBuggy (611105) | more than 3 years ago | (#34519526)

Good luck finding a copy under $500 dollars.

Surely an investor, of all people, should see the value in doing another print run!

Re:high frequency trading needs to be outlawed any (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34519312)

'small time and mom and pop stock market traders will feel abused, ...

But they read Rupert's Financial times, with the stocks from before yesterday and it also has financial psychics predicting the future, you can't beat that?

What is disturbing about this case (2)

Scareduck (177470) | more than 3 years ago | (#34519036)

is the fact that we have apparent non-experts deciding whether what he took was in fact proprietary, and the case is sealed so we cannot judge for ourselves. On the other hand, if what he took was legitimately open source, how comes it he couldn't have downloaded that elsewhere and saved himself a trial?

Re:What is disturbing about this case (1, Interesting)

cdrguru (88047) | more than 3 years ago | (#34519232)

Perhaps because the guy is an arrogant criminal?

I've met lots (well, maybe not lots but enough) of people who have stolen code from past and present employers for their own gain or for use at their new job. Sometimes the new employer welcomes them in with this gift hoping that if anyone gets caught they can deny they knew what was going on.

All of these people have been incredibly arrogant to the point of knowing that they were never going to get caught because they were just smarter than anyone else. And, even if they did get caught that nothing would happen to THEM because again, they were smarter than everyone else.

This goes along with the idea that women should just fall at their feet because they were the embodiment of Adonis and could satisfy any number of women each night giving each the most pleasure they had ever experienced. Needless to say, reality often interfered and sometimes they had a rude awakening. Sometimes they were very surprised when a woman didn't feel quite that way about things and thought they should be charged with rape or something similar.

It all comes down to being an arrogant asswhole.

More than just disturbing (1)

Beryllium Sphere(tm) (193358) | more than 3 years ago | (#34519288)

The Constitution requires a speedy *and public* trial.

Even government classified information is not exempt.

This happend to me ! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34519202)

Actually, the second company I joined needed QA for a project that was in trouble. Meanwhile, one of the engineers left the company, taking the source code with him. He started another company, completed the project and began selling it before we did. I never had contact with engineers nor with source code: since the horse already escaped they slammed every door shut, not just the barn door. I could never get an engineer to fix a bug because they would just claim it worked on their workstation, so it couldn't possibly be a bug.

The other company leveraged their market potential to buy two other start-ups. When they were convicted of theft of trade secrets, they were forced to divest of their ill-gotten assets, but they kept going with the products of the other two companies that they "merged" with. So they continued to compete against us; that is, until we bought them. A classic case of steal-from-your-boss-and-get-rewarded-for-it.

Damned if you do. Damned if you do not. (1)

Kim0 (106623) | more than 3 years ago | (#34519276)

If data are lost, and you do not have a backup copy, you can be prosecuted for negligence.
If data are not lost, and you do have a backup copy, you can be prosecuted for stealing.

I have actually personally experienced both scenarios, but fortunately in a country that is less sue happy than USA.

The worst one, was when all the workstations were stolen, including backups.
I and my colleague restored everything from personal backups, and thus the company was saved, and still exists.

Conclusion: Lawyers hate us and want to hurt us. The law is just an excuse.
Time to make them obsolete.

A bank VP once told me... (3, Insightful)

gestalt_n_pepper (991155) | more than 3 years ago | (#34519328)

"If you're going to commit crimes, son, start with the legal ones."

This was at Crocker Bank in the 80s, which was subsequently bought by Wells Fargo, who laid off thousands, including me. When that happened, I suddenly saw his point.

What's the theory of the case? (2)

tp_xyzzy (1575867) | more than 3 years ago | (#34519504)

From the information in the article, I'm not sure I understand what the case is based on? If the code was open-source, doesn't he have license to use it?

Are they claiming that the "open source" code is actually proprietary and cannot be used by anyone? Or that just their employees cannot use it? Or that the contract between him and the employer somehow prevents licensing the open source code? The article claimed there was no question that he violated the confidentiality agreement. Or did he disclose some proprietary information while copying the "open source" code? Or is the case not based on their ownership of the code that was copied, but something else? Or did he copy it directly from their servers and not use the "open source" versions of the code from external sources?

Guess there are many unanswered questions in this article. But guess it's difficult to understand how big organisation's rules work. Maybe there are some rules that are difficult to understand by normal open source developers. (but if the rules are difficult to understand, how they expect people to follow them?) Banks might have different rules compared to normal companies? More strict maybe...

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