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EPA Knowingly Allowed Pesticide That Kills Bees

Soulskill posted more than 3 years ago | from the how-could-that-bee dept.

Earth 410

hether writes "The mystery of the disappearing bees has been baffling scientists for years and now we get another big piece in the puzzle. From Fast Company: 'A number of theories have popped up as to why the North American honey bee population has declined — electromagnetic radiation, malnutrition, and climate change have all been pinpointed. Now a leaked EPA document reveals that the agency allowed the widespread use of a bee-toxic pesticide, despite warnings from EPA scientists.' Now environmentalists and bee keepers are calling for an immediate ban of the pesticide clothianidin, sold by Bayer Crop Science under the brand name Poncho."

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410 comments

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Good job (-1, Troll)

kyrio (1091003) | more than 3 years ago | (#34543092)

What a bunch of stupid niggers.

Re:Good job (-1, Offtopic)

rekenner (849871) | more than 3 years ago | (#34543114)

What a bunch of stupid

Yeah! Totally agreeing with you, there!

niggers.

... Oh. Oh, well. Uh. Hm. You almost had it, there!

Re:Good job (-1, Troll)

Jeremiah Cornelius (137) | more than 3 years ago | (#34543258)

Almost?

You're crediting him with "almost" because he got hey were stupid, but missed the fact it was AshkeNAZI Jews?

Re:Good job (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34543272)

Meh. Banning this word is like banning the swastika, and we know how well that went. Racists would like nothing more than to see nigger preserved in its original meaning. Racists even sometimes feel slighted by it. Diluting the term is our only salvation.

Why not start by introducing it in our school districts. We could hurry things along by replacing a few words.

Johhny: Teacher, how do niggers survive?
Teacher: You see Johhny, the Sun is vital to niggers; the nigger is at its peak during the day; and it goes through a process we named photosynthesis...

Re:Good job (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34543124)

And your racism is a show of intelligence? Oh please...

Re:Good job (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34543616)

not it just shows his P-E-N-I-S E-N-V-Y

Re:Good job (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34543134)

What a bunch of stupid niggers.

I was going to say that and see you already have. So I will say this instead: wow, you mean the people in government are a bunch of stupid niggers who sold themselves to the highest bidder/campaign contributor/and are totally oblivious to the gigantic damage they do with their enormous stupidity? Say it isn't so!

I saw a bumper sticker once that said "WHEN THE ALIENS COME, I HOPE THEY EAT THE FAT ONES FIRST!" While I am all for culling the human herd starting with the fat and stupid, I think the most expendable members of our population are those who love positions of authority. So if the aliens ate the fat, the stupid, and then the politicians and marketers in that order, the rest of us would owe them a FUCKING HUGE amount of gratitude.

Re:Good job (-1, Offtopic)

vuke69 (450194) | more than 3 years ago | (#34543228)

I'm intrigued by your ideas, and would like to subscribe to your newsletter... No seriously, I would.

Re:Good job (0)

Boomerang Fish (205215) | more than 3 years ago | (#34543232)

what about the lawyers? I think I'd put them ahead of marketers... but just.

--
I drank what?

Re:Good job (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34543514)

But it's only those who love positions of authority who have a real problem with the fat and stupid. People who are not the judgmental control freak a-hole types just say live and let live. So all you'd really have to do is just make sure to feed all the fascists to our hypothetical hungry alien overlords, and then fat and stupid would no longer be considered a "problem". And as an added extra bonus that means there'd be no Marxists left.

From TFA:
Clothianidin has already been banned by Germany, France, Italy, and Slovenia for its toxic effects. So why won't the EPA follow?

Oh noes, another way in which the U.S. is not "keeping up" with some arbitrary goalposts!!!

Re:Good job (-1, Flamebait)

l0ungeb0y (442022) | more than 3 years ago | (#34543140)

go back to 4chan faggot

Re:Good job (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34543286)

shut up nigger

Re:Good job (0)

Tolkien (664315) | more than 3 years ago | (#34543438)

And you didn't post AC. Smooth. I guess you're including yourself in the coverage of your statement then?

poncho? (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34543104)

sounds like a wetback to me!

Yes (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34543108)

This will certainly cause quite a buzz!

Some Questions (-1)

eldavojohn (898314) | more than 3 years ago | (#34543122)

The pesticide is a seed coating? How frequently do bees come into contact with seeds that are planted? Is this one of those studies where they drench a bee in a thousand times its normal exposure and the bee dies? Or does this residue actually stay on the plant through its entire life and affect the bee?

Also, it's apparently used in the UK. Are only North American bees susceptible to this? The article says:

Clothianidin has already been banned by Germany, France, Italy, and Slovenia for its toxic effects.

What about the UK, Russia, China or anyone else? Wouldn't you be able to do surveys on bees inside the UK versus say Germany to get some empirical data to back this up?

I'm not a fan of pesticides but I won't deny that they increase food and crop yield. I'm not a chemist or environmental expert so if anyone can explain a little more why this can be considered a key part of CCD, I'd be grateful.

Re:Some Questions (2)

camperdave (969942) | more than 3 years ago | (#34543156)

It could be that North American bees are also in contact with other chemicals or plants that Eurobees aren't. It may be the interaction with these and the clothianidin that are causing a different reaction on different continents... if there is a different reaction.

Re:Some Questions (5, Informative)

Daniel Dvorkin (106857) | more than 3 years ago | (#34543164)

Most of your questions are answered in TFA, and those that aren't, are thoroughly covered in the linked PDF (except for the political ones.) The short version is that the stuff propagates very easily through the environment and is toxic to bees even in very low doses.

Re:Some Questions (5, Funny)

jhoegl (638955) | more than 3 years ago | (#34543224)

Curses.... foiled again by people who read.

Re:Some Questions (1)

Daniel Dvorkin (106857) | more than 3 years ago | (#34543238)

The villains fall for that trick every time.

Re:Some Questions (1)

davester666 (731373) | more than 3 years ago | (#34543388)

So, villian's are everybody that don't post to /. ?

Re:Some Questions (1)

davester666 (731373) | more than 3 years ago | (#34543416)

er

So, villains' are everybody that doesn't post to /. ?

Re:Some Questions (2)

fucket (1256188) | more than 3 years ago | (#34543506)

Try again.

Re:Some Questions (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34543568)

I'm not much of a grammar nazi and make my fair share of grammatical mistakes, but you went through the trouble of correcting yourself so here goes:

villian's
villains'

villains - Grocers' apostrophe [wikipedia.org]
You don't need an apostrophe to pluralize.

don't
doesn't

You were right the first time. [eslcafe.com]
I don't
you don't
he doesn't
she doesn't
it doesn't
we don't
->they don't

Apologies if you were being facetious.

Re:Some Questions (4, Funny)

Cylix (55374) | more than 3 years ago | (#34543208)

I don't know about this "science" stuff, but I thought I would get straight to the root of the issue. To this end, I found a nearby hibernating honey bee and I asked the little fellow what his thoughts were on the matter. At first I couldn't quite make out what he was saying (bee sized and all) so I held him close to my face. Do you know what the little guy told me? Kill everyone, make the rivers flow with their blood and fill the skies with their screams.

Surprisingly, this is exactly what the article said too.

Re:Some Questions (4, Informative)

kamelkev (114875) | more than 3 years ago | (#34543220)

> I'm not a fan of pesticides but I won't deny that they increase food and crop yield.

Prove it. I don't believe this whatsoever.

There has been a growing of evidence showing that the overuse of pesticides has led to a *decline* in crop yields, not an increase.

See:
http://www.organicconsumers.org/articles/article_5995.cfm
http://www.rsc.org/chemistryworld/News/2007/June/04060701.asp

Unless you are familiar with changes in farming techniques over time it's very very hard to have a substantive position on this. Since about 1960-1970 there has been a *huuuge* increase in the use of nitrogen fertilizers that essentially parallels the use of pesticides. Sadly there was a limit to how much nitrogen fixation can actually take place in the presence of pesticides. Keep in mind that nitrogen is required for plants to grow, nitrogen fixation is required for plants to use nitrogen and... research has now shown that pesticides interferes with nitrogen fixation.

I'm not making a broad claim one way or another, but the government clearly isn't researching the things they should be.

Re:Some Questions (2, Interesting)

Jeremiah Cornelius (137) | more than 3 years ago | (#34543344)

The Green Revolution, heralded by former USAID director William Gaud, is a Malthusian population control mechanism. Oh. USAID? An operational front for the CIA [ipresscenter.com]

It was designed to create maximum crop yield for a 20-50 year period, with a maximum of industrialization and a minimization of farm labour.

The result of which was to create a vacuum of occupational opportunity in the rural communities, which in the 1960's were still the hubs of livelihood for much of the population in the US, Canada and Western Europe.

A migrational trend to urban population centers - abetted by making college/university education cheap and widely available - resulted in a generation transferring from rural existence to urban dwelling. With the former were left behind strong community ties, and the possibility for reasonable self-sufficiency. These were exchanged for "upwardly mobile' creature comforts, that also isolated the individual from his peers, and rendered him an entirely dependent creature - entirely divorced from the skills and capability to feed, clothe and shelter himself and his family. Instead, this ability was replaced through complex commercial abstractions - herded into urban and suburban enclaves.

There never needed to be FEMA camps. The urban existance of late-20th century "modern" life was a honeypot, into which a society hurled itself, with little regard to the consequences for its prized independence and the foundation of its liberty.

Now, what are you going to do, when the collection of rainwater is enforced as a felony? Did you know that Detroit just suspended garbage collection and police patrolling in 20% of the city?

The bad Science Fiction dystopia is real.

The bees? Just a late stage of this sad, intentional collapse...

Re:Some Questions (4, Insightful)

Martin Blank (154261) | more than 3 years ago | (#34543440)

Before you go all tinfoil-hat on us, maybe you should get some points straight. Among them is that the Detroit idea is a proposal, is contingent on approvals at multiple levels and securing funding to move people from neighborhoods that would no longer receive full services, and is simply reflective of the reality that Detroit, once a bustling city of 1.85 million people in 1950, is now under half of that, with nearly 35,000 empty homes.

Besides, urbanization has been happening for centuries. It's picked up the pace in recent decades, but I bet most of the people around in even the 1950s would have been hard pressed to provide entirely for themselves had the need arisen.

Re:Some Questions (1)

Ihmhi (1206036) | more than 3 years ago | (#34543690)

Detroit, once a bustling city of 1.85 million people in 1950, is now under half of that, with nearly 35,000 empty homes.

Well, at least Detroit is exporting something again...

Re:Some Questions (3, Informative)

Entropius (188861) | more than 3 years ago | (#34543484)

Which pesticides?

There is a /huge/ spectrum of different chemicals to kill different sorts of pests, used in different ways, and with different mechanisms of action. Saying that "pesticides" affect nitrogen fixation is an overbroad statement.

Re:Some Questions (2)

Duradin (1261418) | more than 3 years ago | (#34543684)

Use != overuse

Re:Some Questions (3, Informative)

mrmeval (662166) | more than 3 years ago | (#34543240)

There was an article posted on /. a while back that showed a two pronged attack on the bees by I think a mite and a pathogen that caused the death of whole hives.

This sounds like some anti-pesticide religious fanatic trying to whip up hysteria while trying to make the FDA and the pesticide industry look bad.

The FDA screens pesticides for how they will be used, how mobile the pesticide is and how long the residue lasts. If this was not done then cry foul.

This is what I could find in a few minutes searching http://www.thefederalregister.com/d.p/2006-12-13-E6-20898 [thefederalregister.com] I have not found the application for use as a seed coating but Bayer would have needed to go through a process to get that approved by the EPA.

Ah, here is the fact sheet http://www.epa.gov/opprd001/factsheets/clothianidin.pdf [epa.gov]

Endangered Species
Clothianidin is expected to present acute and/or chronic toxicity risk to endangered/threatened birds
and mammals via possible ingestion of treated corn and canola seeds. Endangered/threatened non-
target insects may be impacted via residue laden pollen and nectar. The potential use sites cover the
entire U.S. because corn is grown in almost all U.S. states. The registrant must provide information
on the proximity of Federally listed birds, mammals, and non-target insects to the proposed use sites.
This information may best be provided via the FIFRA Endangered Species Task Force, but may be
produced independently, providing the information is of sufficient quality to meet FIFRA and
Endangered Species Act requirements. The information will be used by the EPA to develop specific
recommendations to avoid adverse effects to listed species.

To address ecological concerns, labeling will be required that mandates treated seed bags be printed
with advisory language regarding hazards to wildlife and will include specific instructions to cover
or collect clothianidin treated seeds that are spilled during loading. In order to fully evaluate the
possibility of chronic exposure to honey bees, a complete worker bee life cycle study will be
required, as well as an evaluation of exposure and effects to the queen. Sediment toxicity testing
will be required to address the uncertainty of possible risk to communities of invertebrates and fish
that inhabit or come into contact with sediment from fields planted with treated seed.

Re:Some Questions (5, Informative)

TubeSteak (669689) | more than 3 years ago | (#34543468)

The FDA screens pesticides for how they will be used, how mobile the pesticide is and how long the residue lasts. If this was not done then cry foul.
...
I have not found the application for use as a seed coating but Bayer would have needed to go through a process to get that approved by the EPA.

Did you RTFA?
"...Bayer was granted a 'conditional registration' while the Environmental Protection Agency waited for them to conduct further field studies on the pesticides impact on bee colonies."

Long story short: The original study was crap, the EPA allowed it, and Bayer knew that the pesticide was a bee killer.

Re:Some Questions (5, Informative)

sqldr (838964) | more than 3 years ago | (#34543248)

What about the UK

There was a horizon program on the BBC here called "what's killing our bees?", which suggested that the only country not really affected (yet) was Australia, who have a roaring trade selling bees now.

That was 2 years ago. Yes, the UK is affected.

Re:Some Questions (2, Informative)

benjamindees (441808) | more than 3 years ago | (#34543316)

The pesticide is a seed coating?

Some are sprays. There are actually dozens of different types, mostly due to the pharmaceutical companies' vast experience in slightly modifying known drugs in order to maintain patent coverage. This also means that, every time they create a new one, they get several years to sell it and pretend that it has no ill-effects before studies are done and it is either banned or the lawsuits start rolling in.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neonicotinoid [wikipedia.org]

And, yes, that name means these drugs are similar to nicotine. They are literally spraying our food with drugs that are known to be harmful and addictive to humans, and calling it "pesticide". George W. Bush hamstrung the EPA and tried to cover the whole thing up because he was a blatant whore for the pharma-chemi-troleum industry along with being the single most completely worthless president in US history.

Re:Some Questions (3, Insightful)

Entropius (188861) | more than 3 years ago | (#34543476)

While I agree with the sentiment of your post, you misrepresent the neonicotinoids. Nicotine evolved as a natural insecticide; it's only logical that we use it too if we want to kill insects. (When insects should be killed, of course, is not the question here.)

There are pretty stringent controls on how recently food can be sprayed before it's harvested; I'd worry far more about environmental degradation from the stuff than harm to food consumers.

malicious skepticism (5, Insightful)

SuperBanana (662181) | more than 3 years ago | (#34543370)

You've insinuated gross incompetence on the part of the researchers. Have you actually gone out and tried to find the answers to these questions? Are you qualified in the field to question the research? Or are you just going off the article, which is a summary of research that was almost undoubtedly much more in-depth than a journalists' summary?

I consider myself a strong skeptic, but one of the duties of a skeptic is to realize their limits. I don't attend a graduate-level lecture and start asking questions - I'd be asked to leave, or at least laughed at. So when I'm confronted with something that doesn't seem right, I seek more information. You're not. You're just throwing out questions. Rather slanted ones.

I see this often, and I suspect it is an actual class of logical fallacy...

1)A slashdotter posts a series of slanted questions and wondering-alouds that are very FUD-ish.

2)The questions aren't (properly) answered, because the audience (jokes about parent's basements aside) doesn't have much knowledge on the subject. Or, the answers that are qualified aren't noticed by moderators.

3)The questions, which are more a challenge to refute a contrary viewpoint to the article than anything else, appear to be valid because there's no response visible. And thus what was probably perfectly legitimate research gets shot down by someone with no background in the subject. Probably not even a mild background in research.

Lastly: the burden of proof no longer rests on the shoulders of the public. After decades of the chemical industry producing toxins and marketing them for uses which were harmful, then doing everything to cover it all up...they are no longer entitled to public trust. If you want to manufacture a chemical and spray it on thousands of square miles of farmland, you better prove first that it doesn't cause problems.

This is especially so, given that research shows that old farming techniques and organic practices are equally or more effective, and cause no permanent damage to people or the environment. Virtually none of the artificial stuff spread on the farmlands of the world are *necessary*, even if one's sole criteria is increased yield.

If anyone wants to see another scary example of this "what, me worry?" attitude, check out methyl iodide, a known toxin, which was just approved for use by California:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=%2Fn%2Fa%2F2010%2F12%2F01%2Fnational%2Fa143424S98.DTL&tsp=1 [sfgate.com]

"Hey, it's okay to spread this toxic crap all over the ground, because we'll only use what we think is just enough, and people want pretty strawberries."

Re:malicious skepticism (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34543454)

Shh. You'll ruin his karma scheme. It's subtle you see.

Re:Some Questions (1)

Senes (928228) | more than 3 years ago | (#34543486)

A few years ago there was a bee scare in which there were a lot of places where you could find piles of dead bees wherever you went. It caused a lot of fear for the agricultural industry because bees pollinate a lot of the crops and a pesticide which gets rid of the bees is highly counter-productive in that regard.

Insects' nervous system works a lot differently from mammals, which is how pesticides can be made to be so devastating to bugs yet effectively harmless to humans. This means it's also a challenge to avoid killing non-pests, which is one thing the EPA is supposed to be on the lookout for.

Re:Some Questions (2)

shawb (16347) | more than 3 years ago | (#34543632)

Technically, they weren't finding piles of dead bees. The initial presentation was often that the bees were simply missing.

But yeah, pedanticism aside, your main point still stands. Colony Collapse Disorder (CCD) [wikipedia.org] is a pretty serious problem facing beekeeping and any agriculture that relies heavily on bees for fertilization, such as almonds. There are many many possibilities on what causes CCD. I personally have a feeling that it's going to end up being something like cancer where there isn't one type of CCD, but there are many different disorders with a similarly presenting outcome. I wouldn't be surprised if many of the collapses are multivariate, such as bee colony transport and exposure to crop pesticides reducing the bees immune system, which leads to infestation of mites, which is treated with more pesticides further stressing the bees to the point where they get a viral infection which then opens the door for secondary fungal or bacterial infections which actually kill the bees. It is thought that the hives are often found empty because if a bee "realizes" that it's sick, it will try to get away from the hive to prevent spread, but the widespread immune system impairment causes a full blown epidemic out of what would have been a couple of sick bees. Basically any of the individual stresses wouldn't be enough for the entire colony to collapse, but added up the bees don't stand a chance. Large problems like this never seem to have one magic pill that just fixes everything.

Re:Some Questions (4, Informative)

sjames (1099) | more than 3 years ago | (#34543580)

Also, it's apparently used in the UK. Are only North American bees susceptible to this? The article says:

Of course not. The better question would be has the UK had a problem with colony collapse as well? The answer to that would be yes, it has.

Re:Some Questions (2)

hairyfeet (841228) | more than 3 years ago | (#34543582)

Read TFA and your questions are answered, but long story short this stuff spreads through the environment quite easily and even tiny doses kills bees dead. I don't know how often (if ever) you get to step onto a farm but I live in the south and I can tell you the megafarms run by the megacorps are VERY irresponsible with regards to chemicals.

The smaller family farms I've been on generally try to limit the use of chemicals whenever possible simply because the stuff is not only toxic but expensive so when they spray they tend to use any chemicals sparingly and as a last resort. Like instead of using fertilizers which end up polluting the drinking water they will simply buy manure or trade for it from the local ranchers and use that instead. Contrast this to the megafarms which frankly drown the ground in chemicals so thick you can't even breathe driving by one of the things. I don't know if it is corporate policy, or if since the guys working the farm don't own the land they just don't care or what, but they really go overboard with it.

And frankly it isn't just the bees affected either, as those of us allergic to bee and wasp stings can tell you the reaction you get thanks to the pesticides getting into the sting is SERIOUSLY nasty, and according to my doc the last time I saw him over being stung he says more and more are developing severe allergic reactions to stings thanks to the "toxic wasps and bees" as he calls them. and considering how much we need bees to pollinate the crops the chemical in TFA is giving a small short term gain for REALLY big long term losses.

Re:Some Questions (3, Informative)

wizardforce (1005805) | more than 3 years ago | (#34543658)

I have mod points but I'm also a biochemist so I thought I'd answer a few of your questions.

The pesticide is a seed coating? How frequently do bees come into contact with seeds that are planted?

The pesticide in question is also found in pollen. Since Bees come into frequent contact with said pollen, it's not too much of a surprise that at certain levels, it can be harmful to them.

Also, it's apparently used in the UK. Are only North American bees susceptible to this? The article says:

In short, no, they are not the only ones susceptible. The LD50 for bees is in the ppm range but there is concern that bees show abnormal behavior at ~20 ppb. Different plant components contain different concentrations of the insecticide. Mostly in the leaves which can have up to 20x the amount of insecticide shown to change bee behavior.

The pesticide its self is designed to mimic Nicotine in that it works against the neurological systems of many species of insects.

This is... (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34543130)

Treason. Execute everyone involved.

EP(what?) (4, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34543132)

Hmmm and i thought the "P" stood for Protection, but clearly its something to do with Profits and or Pressure.... what a freakin sellout i bet they were pressured to allow more profits by the big agribusiness lobbyists... i guess agribusiness will be the first to cry foul when their crops no longer get fertilised....

Re:EP(what?) (-1, Offtopic)

monkyyy (1901940) | more than 3 years ago | (#34543260)

would have mod`d if u wernt anon

Re:EP(what?) (-1, Offtopic)

trentblase (717954) | more than 3 years ago | (#34543306)

The purpose of mod isn't to reward commenters. It's to raise visibility for worthy comments. So next time, mod anon up so that people reading on +2, etc. can see the good comments.

Re:EP(what?) (3, Insightful)

SirGeek (120712) | more than 3 years ago | (#34543376)

If you really want to hurt them, Buy locally produced organic (from a REAL Organic farm). Join a CSA and get good local produce almost year round (one here in Mass goes from June through December, then they have a winter one that goes from Jan through the end of Mar).

I'm safe (0, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34543136)

I'm safe because I'm always wearing my tinfoil hat.

We need to make tinfoil hats for all of the bees now so that they will be safe too.

I'm a hacker so I know about this kind of stuff.

nt (0)

shentino (1139071) | more than 3 years ago | (#34543148)

Dear feds:

Buzz off.

Not like Slashdot (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34543152)

What? A Slasdot article that says government=good, private industry=bad. This is so out of character. /sarcasm-off

Re:Not like Slashdot (4, Insightful)

Daniel Dvorkin (106857) | more than 3 years ago | (#34543190)

Well, see, you can live in your little Randroid free-market fantasyland all you want. But when you start poisoning the land, air, and water we all have to share, the rest of us will organize to stop you. We will call this organization "the government." We will give this organization the power to fine you, imprison you, or even kill you if you refuse to mend your ways, and you can't stop us. There are more of us than there are of you, we're smarter, and we're better than you in every conceivable way.

Don't like it? Move to Somalia. There are a bunch of people there who have taken your ideology to its logical extreme. Let's see how long you last.

Re:Not like Slashdot (3, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34543386)

Your argument for limited government controls to prevent a tragedy of the commons is not also an argument for strong government controls like massive redistribution of wealth and the destruction of the dollar as a valuable entity. Furthermore, your suggestion that Somalia is a form of free market is ludicrous.

You should actually try to understand what you're arguing against. Capitalism is a philosophy of private ownership, pacifism, and protection of property rights. Somalia, by contrast, is what happens when you make a point of not respecting private property. It is no more the logical extreme of Capitalism than Soviet Russia was the logical extreme of communism. They're both good examples of what happens when you believe that might and the majority are all it takes to make right.

You can pretend to be smarter than us, but your asinine suggestion that government shouldn't represent us because we don't adhere to your philosophy is abhorrent and anti-democratic. Furthermore, any intelligent person should be able to see the damage being caused by this particular pesticide. Why do you assume that we wouldn't acknowledge that there is a problem and move to stop it? Are you arguing that we should have predicted this in advance? Are there not errors in your life that you wish you could have prevented?

A good capitalist would admit that he or she fucked up and do something about it. What would you do in the same situation, other than point fingers or beg the Government to come save you?

Re:Not like Slashdot (1)

Entropius (188861) | more than 3 years ago | (#34543462)

The issue is that there are three points of view: strong government controls (a la Europe), weak government controls (what you're calling "capitalism"), and fascism. We have the latter right now.

Cause? (1)

Black Parrot (19622) | more than 3 years ago | (#34543194)

Didn't they recently announce discovery of the primary cause for the bee-deaths?

Re:Cause? (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34543360)

Yes. It was loss of life.

Seed Enhancement (5, Interesting)

Nonillion (266505) | more than 3 years ago | (#34543212)

I work in seed enhancement, fortunately, I don't order clothianidin (Poncho) from Bayer Crop Science. However I do order Thiram, Captan and Allegiance (aka Apron FL) from Bayer. Most of these chemicals are used to control pythium, however I've always wondered if these were responsible for the bee hive die offs.

Re:Seed Enhancement (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34543262)

so if i need to get my seed enhanced i just talk to you then, well thats a load of my mind

Re:Seed Enhancement (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34543346)

Your views are interesting - can you explain more about what types of crops these seeds are, environment the seeds are planted in (wet/dry) And why the variety of products? Are they specific to certain crops? Now wondering what effects these other products could have. Just learned clothianidin residual in the soil is almost 2 decades. Last question: what would other methods to deal with pythium be?

Re:Seed Enhancement (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34543418)

However I do order Thiram, Captan and Allegiance

Those are my favorite superheroes, too!

One More Bush Era Screw Up (5, Insightful)

Required Snark (1702878) | more than 3 years ago | (#34543244)

One more example of how Bush and his greedy incompetent Republican asshats have screwed everybody. This stuff is used because of a conditional waiver that was issued in 2003, against the scientific advices of the experts.

It's just like the BP Gulf oil spill and the coal mine explosion in West Virginia. There are systems in place to protect people and the environment, but when the Republicans gain control they stop all oversight. It takes five to fifteen years to see all the failures, and by then everyone forgets who turned over control to the crooks and lairs.

They just wave the flag, blame everything on the government bureaucrats and illegal aliens, scream about the war on terror, and then lie and deny when the shit hits the fan. I guess as long as these morons continue to lie and cheat their way into power we deserve to have poisoned gulf seafood and the end of flowering crops.

Don't worry, you can just consume more high fructose processed food and get diabetes. The corn/agribusiness lobby will continue to do just fine with their massive tax breaks and government subsidies, and they're so rich that they can afford imported fruits and vegetables. If you get sick and loose your health care you can crawl off and die, and that will solve them problem.

and (0)

unity100 (970058) | more than 3 years ago | (#34543322)

why is the above post modded down ? because its too disturbing to see uncomfortable truth ?

Re:and (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34543450)

Because he is an illiterate commie?

Re:and (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34543502)

why is the above post modded down ?

Probably it says "loose your healthcare".

Re:and (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34543532)

I modded it off-topic because it has nothing to add to the dicussion of pesticides and their effect on bees. Nor does it offer any real discussion about the EPA approval prrocess. In fact, the entire pesticide/bee story is merely cited as an example of something else entirely that the poster is just itching to tell us about.

And if it wasn't off-topic, calling your political opponents asshats, morons and cheaters is just flaming. It's barely on-topic as a mindless political screed, which is a pretty low standard. But "uncomfortable truth"? Partisan ranting is certainly one of those two things.

Re:and (1)

unity100 (970058) | more than 3 years ago | (#34543604)

you need to develop your correlation skills.

this issue is about a govt. agency enabling a corporation to cause phenomenal ecological damage by letting go of rules. the cause-effect relationship, is as thus.

the GP post you modded down, practically lays out not only HOW this happened, but also WHY this happened.

But "uncomfortable truth"? Partisan ranting is certainly one of those two things.

so is conveniently missing the major causation leading to the event being discussed and then modding a post down. maybe too convenient indeed ...

Re:One More Bush Era Screw Up (2, Informative)

Keebler71 (520908) | more than 3 years ago | (#34543340)

One more example of how Bush and his greedy incompetent Republican asshats have screwed everybody. This stuff is used because of a conditional waiver that was issued in 2003, against the scientific advices of the experts.

It's just like the BP Gulf oil spill and the coal mine explosion in West Virginia. There are systems in place to protect people and the environment, but when the Republicans gain control they stop all oversight. It takes five to fifteen years to see all the failures, and by then everyone forgets who turned over control to the crooks and lairs.

They just wave the flag, blame everything on the government bureaucrats and illegal aliens, scream about the war on terror, and then lie and deny when the shit hits the fan. I guess as long as these morons continue to lie and cheat their way into power we deserve to have poisoned gulf seafood and the end of flowering crops.

Don't worry, you can just consume more high fructose processed food and get diabetes. The corn/agribusiness lobby will continue to do just fine with their massive tax breaks and government subsidies, and they're so rich that they can afford imported fruits and vegetables. If you get sick and loose your health care you can crawl off and die, and that will solve them problem.

Pssstttttt.... 15 years before the events you cited... Clinton was president.

Re:One More Bush Era Screw Up (5, Informative)

je ne sais quoi (987177) | more than 3 years ago | (#34543414)

I'd just like to add that, while strongly worded, the parent post isn't actually a troll. The Bush adminstration closed a research lab [texasbeekeepers.org] for honeybees and canceled funding for projects that were focused on determining the cause of the mysterious honey bee deaths. It's tempting to say that the Bush administration canceled those projects because it already knew the truth about what was killing the honeybees, but I don't really see how they could have known that precisely was the cause, more than likely they just didn't care.

As further evidence, the number of lawsuits issued by the EPA dropped by 75% [ens-newswire.com] under the Bush administration. (!) It's no coincidence that during the last decade we had increasing food safety alerts about E. Coli, etc. in our food, increased mercury in bodies of water, etc., etc. etc. This was done intentionally in the belief that applying the following rules always works: "regulation = bad" "business interests = good". Stupid and short-sighted.... (And yet somehow the American people felt it was a good idea to let these guys back into control of congress? WTF? They're going to get what they deserve, the only problem is I'm going to get what they deserve it too since environmental problems affect everyone.)

Re:One More Bush Era Screw Up (4, Informative)

Moridineas (213502) | more than 3 years ago | (#34543510)

I'd just like to add that, while strongly worded, the parent post isn't actually a troll

Let's see, in reality clothianidin was granted full approval this year -- April 2010! That's 4 years of a completely Democratically controlled congress and 2 years of a Democratic House+Senate+President. Most politically appointees from the Bush years are LONG gone by now. Turnover in agencies is incredible around election time. I'm very, very glad to see more stuff of this type appear on Wikileaks (though I wish some other government's dirty laundry would start showing up too). The troll part is being so blindly partisan. IMHO, it's that kind of super-polarized partisanship that helps lead to so many of our political problems.

Additionally, CCD is occurring around the globe--even in countries that don't use clothiandin.

As further evidence, the number of lawsuits issued by the EPA dropped by 75% [enO's-newswire.com] under the Bush administration. (!) It's no coincidence that during the last decade we had increasing food safety alerts about E. Coli, etc. in our food, increased mercury in bodies of water, etc., etc. etc

What on does the EPA have to do with E. coli outbreaks? Does the EPA really control wild boards running through spinach fields? Or indeed have ANYTHING to do with that situation?

Re:One More Bush Era Screw Up (0)

mgabrys (14614) | more than 3 years ago | (#34543470)

and if you post the data on the internet - you'll be accused of treason - even if you don't LIVE IN THE FUCKING UNITED STATES OF AMERICAN FAGGOTS.

Re:One More Bush Era Screw Up (0)

Nyder (754090) | more than 3 years ago | (#34543512)

One more example of how Bush and his greedy incompetent Republican asshats have screwed everybody. This stuff is used because of a conditional waiver that was issued in 2003, against the scientific advices of the experts.

It's just like the BP Gulf oil spill and the coal mine explosion in West Virginia. There are systems in place to protect people and the environment, but when the Republicans gain control they stop all oversight. It takes five to fifteen years to see all the failures, and by then everyone forgets who turned over control to the crooks and lairs.

They just wave the flag, blame everything on the government bureaucrats and illegal aliens, scream about the war on terror, and then lie and deny when the
  shit hits the fan. I guess as long as these morons continue to lie and cheat their way into power we deserve to have poisoned gulf seafood and the end of flowering crops.

  Don't worry, you can just consume more high fructose processed food and get diabetes.
    The corn/agribusiness lobby will continue to do just fine with their massive tax breaks and government subsidies, and they're so rich that they can afford imported fruits and vegetables. If you get sick and loose your health care you can crawl off and die, and that will solve them problem.

Republican, Democrat, it don't matter. They both serve the Corporation Overlord.

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Your spam here is wasted effort. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34543294)

Focus on forums that do not use rel=nofollow on their links, or better yet, find yourself a real job.

and wikileaks are terrorists (2, Interesting)

monkyyy (1901940) | more than 3 years ago | (#34543250)

how did this stay hidden so long

Re:and wikileaks are terrorists (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34543552)

Well, less people had access to this information. And secondly, this information was semi-public already, but no one gave a shit.

english bees (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34543254)

also have suffered a dramatic drop in numbers.
I think the issue with the treating of seeds is the insecticide becomes part of the plant (the systemic feature)
so when the bees do their thing they are getting residual contact.
At least that is how the systemics I used work but that was for drenching the leafy matter or watering the plant with it.
No experience with systemics drenching seed product..

Where are those who dubbed wikileaks 'terrorists' (5, Insightful)

unity100 (970058) | more than 3 years ago | (#34543270)

Come again ?

North american bee population has been declining, scientists estimated that in a few decades this would affect everything in agriculture (pollination), and trying to solve it. it was even dubbed end of mankind. it was that serious.

Now it turns out that, your government has allowed bee-killing pesticides. noone heard about it. no journalist made news of it. no ngo was warned of it. NOONE KNEW. if wikileaks didnt leak it, you would not know about it, still.

tell me now, who are the real terrorists ? the ones letting you know that your entire ecosystem and agriculture is being killed by corporations which have been allowed by your government, or, those corporations and the government themselves ?

wise up. support wikileaks. it is giving you the control over your government that was taken away from you.

Re:Where are those who dubbed wikileaks 'terrorist (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34543466)

It was never that serious. It is a sad thing to see the Bees go, but others will take their place. Birds, bumble bees, and many other insects / animals carry out pollination already. Bees were the main pollinators but if they go something else will rise up and take its place in the food chain.

Re:Where are those who dubbed wikileaks 'terrorist (4, Funny)

GodfatherofSoul (174979) | more than 3 years ago | (#34543490)

You need to relax. It's quite simple if you understand Friedmannite economics. Cutting corporate taxes and deregulation will resolve all of our problems. The Free Market will come up with a cheaper, better solution to bee pollination.

Re:Where are those who dubbed wikileaks 'terrorist (-1)

istartedi (132515) | more than 3 years ago | (#34543644)

Here we are. When they released the locations of targets, they became terrorists.

When they realease information like this, they are public servants.

There is no contradiction. Gangsters often serve their communities in some capacity. That way, when the cops come through, nobody wants to rat them out because they bought some nice old lady a Cadillac, or they cleaned the streets, or they did some swift justice on a rapist. They're still gangsters.

Doing some good doesn't absolve you of your evil. That's just not how it works.

It's a pity really, because responsible release of information that really is a leak, such as this EPA business, is a great thing. Releasing information that is not a leak, and that might cause headaches for the legitimate defense of the nation, is terrorism.

To recap. You can be a terrorist, and still do some good. You still have to pay for your terrorist acts.

Snippy "Free Market" Comments (4, Insightful)

geoffrobinson (109879) | more than 3 years ago | (#34543278)

So when anything bad happens involving some private enterprise, someone on here usually has some stupid comment like "I thought the free market would make life perfect."

Well, let me be the one to offer a hypothesis: people are no good and there is no perfect system because of people. Or if we want to be sarcastic too "I thought government regulators were going to make life perfect."

Free market beekeepers could sue for losses (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34543444)

couldn't they?

Re:Snippy "Free Market" Comments (4, Insightful)

copponex (13876) | more than 3 years ago | (#34543686)

It's because there are idiots out there known as "libertarians" who believe that emasculating the government will solve everything. They are just as fucking wrong as utopian communists.

A transparent market is an amazing thing, but unfortunately, a market desires to be opaque in order to increase profits. Unless you have a strong and largely uncorrupted government to continue providing transparency, you don't have a market. You have a conspiratorial oligopoly that will risk destroying entire ecosystems to push up quarterly profits.

Anonymous Coward (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34543312)

I guess they wouldn't go to ilovebees.com...

I think it's time to consider banning EPA itself (1)

melted (227442) | more than 3 years ago | (#34543398)

I think it's time to consider banning EPA itself. Seriously, those fuckers are a joke. Kill it with fire and replace with something that has more teeth. Do the same to FDA as well.

Re:I think it's time to consider banning EPA itsel (1)

GodfatherofSoul (174979) | more than 3 years ago | (#34543516)

The EPA as a whole isn't the problem. It's that thin, but corrupt as hell, veneer between the scientists and the policy makers that is the problem. There are so many stories of corruption (like the administrator who edited a climate change report then went to work for Big Oil) like this. But, no substantial changes will ever occur since our country has gone over the Fascism cliff. We are totally at the beck and call of corporate interests now. Yes, I'm saying our country is on its death bed.

Hold on now... (4, Interesting)

uvajed_ekil (914487) | more than 3 years ago | (#34543420)

This sounds bad, and I admit that this is the first I've heard about this particular pesticide being especially toxic to bees, but let's not get carried away. The longstanding mystery of Colony Collapse Disorder in bees has pretty much been solved. A few months ago, it was published that a double whammy of a fungus and a virus acting at the same time are almost certainly what have decimated bee populations around the world. A bee colony can usually survive either of the two pathogens, and it will recover, but being hit by both at the same time is deadly. The science behind this conclusion looked sound, and most experts have agreed. Sure, this pesticide has clearly not helped bees, and perhaps a ban is in order, but it is not the main factor behind all the recent hubbub about honeybees.

I don't want to hear anything about evil electromagnetic radiation, cell phones, wifi, government conspiracies, aliens, a grassy knoll, or malnutrition induced by an exploding pooh bear population. The answer is simple and makes sense. Bee populations have suffered around the world, including where there is neither ubiquitous wifi nor this pesticide, and the virus/fungus combo has been found everywhere anyone has looked. Now, maybe aliens brought the virus and communists spread the fungus, but...

Re:Hold on now... (1)

gmhowell (26755) | more than 3 years ago | (#34543748)

I don't want to hear anything about evil electromagnetic radiation, cell phones, wifi, government conspiracies, aliens, a grassy knoll, or malnutrition induced by an exploding pooh bear population.

Good, because those aren't the issue. The issues are that 9/11 was an inside job, and Obama is a foreign born Muslim.

This industry is SO CORRUPT. (5, Insightful)

Entropius (188861) | more than 3 years ago | (#34543442)

My father is an entomologist for a university Extension Service. For those who don't know (non-Americans), the Extension Services are outreach arms of the universities set up to provide advice to the public. His main job is to advise farmers on pest control measures for crops, mostly cotton; the advice is often "if you spray to kill pest A, you'll also kill predator B, which eats pest C which is resistant to insecticide, and C will eat your cotton. So don't do anything and put up with A, they won't eat that much."

Many of the meetings are sponsored by chemical companies. There are responsible uses of insecticides; used wisely, some insecticides can provide a cost-effective way to increase yields with very minimal long-term environmental harm. But the chemical companies are corrupt as hell. They try to bribe the scientists with lavish gifts to publish studies that favor their products, and encourage farmers (and scientists) to use too much insecticide, or use it when it's not really appropriate. It's sham science done for the sake of greed, and it is disgusting.

On the flip side, there are "studies" that show environmental harm where there really isn't any -- either by misguided "everything must be grown organically" types, or by people pushing back against the chemical company propaganda.

It's hard to tell a damn thing from "studies" on this sort of thing, because everyone is so busy grinding axes that who's right and who's wrong gets completely lost. This makes me, as a scientist in another field where there is far less of that, rather angry.

Those crazy germans. (3, Interesting)

QuantumG (50515) | more than 3 years ago | (#34543482)

Bayer: the people who gave us Heroin.

really [a1b2c3.com]

Re:Those crazy germans. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34543606)

So I guess that means they're not all bad.

Re:Those crazy germans. (3, Insightful)

QuantumG (50515) | more than 3 years ago | (#34543636)

Well, their advertising for Heroin was for "non-addictive opium".. could they have gotten that any more wrong?

Mother Nature 1, Mankind 0 (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34543492)

Honey bees aren't indigenous to North America, they were brought over by Europeans in the 17th century. So in killing all honey bees the pesticide company is just setting things right. Way to be Mother Natures sword Bayer!

Why the fuss over this particular bee killer? (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34543494)

I'm trying to understand why the fuss over this particular bee killing insecticide. The article reads as if it's the only EPA approved, bee-toxic pesticide. It's not. Carbaryl (trade name Sevin) is a VERY widely used insecticide that's toxic to honey bees. Worse, the bees tend not to die before they carry the stuff back to their hives, so it tends to build up there and kill large numbers of them.

There's a good chance you have some Carbaryl in your house. It's very popular as a lawn and garden insecticide. It's also commonly used in flea powders and collars.

It's also relatively toxic to cats.

My first thought (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34543528)

My first thought is that some EPA boss got paid off by Bayer Crop Science to rubber stamp this. It sounds too much like the guy who showed all of the high accuracy computer models showing exactly what would happen if the dikes around New Orleans were not strengthened. GW Bush suggested that the war in Iraq with all of the weapons of mass destruction was too important to slow up on. The storm came, thousands died. Now all we need is some right wing nut jobs questioning the science, questioning whether the bees really died or whether they are only sleeping, questioning whether the toxin is really at fault or maybe, maybe something else that is just some kind of coincidence, and that those silly scientists can't possibly be right because there is just too darn much money to be made, and besides, who needs all those bees anyway. All we need is one right wing nut job with a trust fund to come along and say that he saw bees not pollenating plants, but eating them, and that the lack of bees means more food for all of us! And since we can't make money on bees, then its better that they are gone. Besides, bees can't vote for any right wing tax cut bills, so bees aren't really good for anything. Go ahead, I await the nut jobs.

IF THEY LET 'DOCTORS' ABORT CHILDREN ... (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34543530)

... then what are few lousy bees? Think about it !!

Government agencies (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34543534)

Always looking out for corporate interests.

I am sure the EPA will act swiftly (5, Insightful)

mysidia (191772) | more than 3 years ago | (#34543542)

These leaks MUST be stopped immediately, and those responsible must go to jail for life, and execution may even be warranted. I am sure the EPA will be acting quickly to ensure those responsible for the leaks are rapidly brought to justice.

This is a clear and dire threat to national security, and the leakers are traitors; think of what will happen when the Bees find out the nature of the pesticide, and the informants who formulated it!

This will only serve to cause more incidents of bee attacks against us, costing precious human lives.

Lives are at stake; and the leakers are enemy combatants performing an act of terrorism

<sarcasm>

Interesting page on this started already Nov 2003 (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34543626)

Sepp Hasslberger, Millions of bees dead - Bayer's Gaucho blamed, started November 26, 2003:

http://www.newmediaexplorer.org/sepp/2003/11/26/millions_of_bees_dead_bayers_gaucho_blamed.htm

right... (1)

Kane3162 (1886504) | more than 3 years ago | (#34543744)

let me get this straight... a branch (no matter how lousily connected) of our (speaking as an American) government... approved something that has a negative impact? wake up and smell the beans, our government has been doing this for about 30~ years (as much history i care to read at 24, i already know humanity is fucked).. gotta love this: """That whenever any form of government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.""" --- go ahead, try it, so i can laugh at you being labeled a terrorist or defamed, or "blackballed"... our government has grown so big that its impossible to stop, we will pass up china soon and when that point comes... well fill in the blank... the US WILL become worse then China, I guarantee it (totally influenced by a mens warehouse commercial)
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