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Spanish Congress Rejects Internet Censorship Law

samzenpus posted more than 3 years ago | from the no-one-expects-the-spanish-opposition dept.

Censorship 229

TuringTest writes "A commission of the Spanish Congress has rejected a law that allowed the closure of web sites that provide unauthorized downloads. The government couldn't reach enough support from its allies, not because they opposed the law in principle, but because of the way it was redacted and the lack of negotiation. Recently the Spanish Senate rejected a law on net neutrality. Also the Wikileaks cables disclosed pressure from the USA on the Spanish government to pass a law to reduce Internet sharing of music and media, which is legal in Spain."

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packing my bags ... (3, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34649912)

and moving to spain

Re:packing my bags ... (3, Insightful)

spxZA (996757) | more than 3 years ago | (#34650106)

How will that prevent the great US and A from censoring what you want? Just because you're in a country that doesn't do any censoring, doesn't mean that other countries' policies won't affect you. Too many double negatives?

Re:packing my bags ... (1)

Vernes (720223) | more than 3 years ago | (#34650550)

welcome to: www.ereccionsensata.es

Re:packing my bags ... (1)

Xamataca (921539) | more than 3 years ago | (#34650716)

and with "sensible erection" you mean...?

Re:packing my bags ... (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34650126)

Hope you don't carry, 'cause in Spain you can only do it to and from a range. Freedoms can be funny things like that - you get one, you lose one.

Re:packing my bags ... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34650238)

And believe me, most Spaniards would rather have it this way. Freedoms can be funny things like that - not everyone thinks you should have some of them, and I'm talking about citizens, not governments.

Some people prefer other freedoms (5, Insightful)

fantomas (94850) | more than 3 years ago | (#34650464)

Sometimes two different 'freedoms' may clash. It looks like Spanish people feel that it is better to be free of the fear of huge amounts of guns on their streets than the freedom for the majority of citizens to carry guns on their streets.

I've lived in Europe for 40 years and never once have I thought "I'd feel safer walking to the shops if I had a gun on me or knowing that lots of these other people walking around on the streets had guns on them".

Re:Some people prefer other freedoms (4, Insightful)

characterZer0 (138196) | more than 3 years ago | (#34650828)

The right to bear arms is to protect yourself from the government, not from the riffraff.

Regardless of whether it works or not in this day and age, that is the reason for the right.

Re:Some people prefer other freedoms (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34650866)

You are wrong.

The American Right (i.e. the NRA) undoubtedly proclaim that guns are also for personal defense and hunting.

Re:Some people prefer other freedoms (1)

bberens (965711) | more than 3 years ago | (#34651288)

Meh, it has its benefits. The state of Wisconsin alone has 600k hunters. That constitutes the 8th largest army in the world. The United States will never be successfully invaded/occupied by an unwanted force.

Re:Some people prefer other freedoms (1)

SuricouRaven (1897204) | more than 3 years ago | (#34650926)

You: Pistol, maybe a rifle, a few hundred hours on the range.
The Law: SWAT team, flashbangs, CS grenades, door-breaching revolving shotgun, high-powered sniper rifles, professional police with training in simulated urban combat.

Maybe guns were a good way to resist the government when the second amendment was written, but not now.

Re:Some people prefer other freedoms (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34651118)

Seems to work pretty damn great in the US if you ask me! The guns are being put into use solely for the purpose they were intended and the government is terrified of doing anything that would upset the people.

Re:Some people prefer other freedoms (4, Interesting)

99BottlesOfBeerInMyF (813746) | more than 3 years ago | (#34651018)

Sometimes two different 'freedoms' may clash.

Absolutely.

. It looks like Spanish people feel that it is better to be free of the fear of huge amounts of guns on their streets than the freedom for the majority of citizens to carry guns on their streets.

See, and this is where you, and perhaps they, lose me. Freedom from fear. People may give up personal freedom (and responsibility) in the hope that they will be safer and less afraid, but I seem to recall a rather famous quote about just that. In truth, there is little scientific support for the theory that strict gun control laws result in greater safety. They might result in less fear, but that's only a function of the public's ignorance.

I've lived in Europe for 40 years and never once have I thought "I'd feel safer walking to the shops if I had a gun on me or knowing that lots of these other people walking around on the streets had guns on them".

And for the most part, when it comes to personal protection, there is little scientific support for the theory that having access to more common firearms makes people safer either. Sadly, for being such a major issue, there's really very few well conducted studies on the issue since no one keeps track of how often firearms are used to deter or prevent crime, and very sporadic records on how often violent crimes occur (hint they are constantly reclassified by politicians that control record keeping and who want to seem effective ala, we have 50% fewer homeless and a huge increase in outdoorsmen in our city). The scientific consensus to date is there is no real correlation between gun control laws and violent crime when normalized for other factors, or perhaps a slight increase in violent crime.

But mostly I just wanted to point out what I see as your misperception. The individual right to carry firearms is a freedom. The right to stop everyone else from carrying them is not a freedom, it's a restriction. No matter how you try to redefine it as a "freedom to not feel fear". You can claim it is a conflict of the freedom to carry firearms and the freedom to continue living, but that is only in perception. One might as well argue free speech is not a freedom, because it conflicts with my fear that word viruses might infect my brain and transform me into a starfish. Rational people have to rely upon actual evidence and there is no evidence to date, that is an actual conflict, only a perceived one in the minds of those who have not actually formed their opinion using a rational methodology. When you wrote that the spanish people "feel" it is better, you were much more precise than perhaps you intended.

Re:Some people prefer other freedoms (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34651086)

I still feel much safer (here in Europe) knowing that most of the population are not armed. Human beings being non-rational and emotional creatures, I think it's probably safer to keep the sharp things locked away from most. I've never felt the need for a gun myself to defend me from the government, and I don't think it would be very useful to have one if the government really threatened me, I think a legal system and a free press are better weapons to potentially protect the individual. (not the OP BTW, just adding my 2p).

Re:Some people prefer other freedoms (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34651192)

Hi, i am from Spain.

Guns:
- I am NOT free when someone near me has a gun because he may kill me so easily, that i must obey him to survey.
Its soooo simple...

Music:
- Personal freedom is clearly over multimillionaires business.
- Musicians can gain enough money making concerts and, as a plus, selling their music at the price their fans (that loves them) wanna pay.
- Laws and Copyright must be done by the people, for the people.

3rd World War will begin because of lack of freedom...

Re:packing my bags ... (3, Insightful)

BenoitRen (998927) | more than 3 years ago | (#34650216)

Good luck getting a job there.

Don't give them an inch, or all you have to do... (3, Interesting)

mykos (1627575) | more than 3 years ago | (#34649926)

...Is lower the bar for "copyright infringement" or the enforcement thereof.

It's already happening in the US. [google.com] Homeland Security to fourth amendment: "Fuck you."

Re:Don't give them an inch, or all you have to do. (1)

jianan4115 (1925758) | more than 3 years ago | (#34650120)

This makes me very bah buy wow gold [buy-worldo...t-gold.com]

Re:Don't give them an inch, or all you have to do. (4, Informative)

FriendlyLurker (50431) | more than 3 years ago | (#34650340)

What has particularly pissed off [eff.org] Spanish internet community is that the copyright laws the US is blackmailing through in Spain (via 301/trade sanctions) go way beyond what has ever been proposed here in the US - i.e. 3 strikes.

In a move that has only thrown more fuel on the fire, the US ambassador to Spain took an active role in discouraging democratic debate [google.com] about the new laws - agreeing by Spanish request to "influence" elected representatives so that they did not to meet or discuss the new laws with their constituents:

"[Sebastian] I was particularly concerned that the regional government of Madrid had been organizing meetings with Internet users. (...) He said that would be helpful if the ambassador could encourage regional president [Esperanza Aguirre] to stop.'s Ambassador agreed to raise the issue when meeting with the regional president."

"Spreading Democracy" in action, anyone.

Re:Don't give them an inch, or all you have to do. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34650410)

Homeland Security to fourth amendment: "Fuck you."

Sorry, that is a copy infringement. See Cheney vs US People for prior art.

sad (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34649944)

its sad that this is not normal but abnormal for the government to work

pressure from the USA on the Spanish government (4, Insightful)

unity100 (970058) | more than 3 years ago | (#34649950)

to pass a law to reduce Internet sharing of music and media, which is legal in Spain

see how that filth works ? this is precisely why they are trying to take down wikileaks. because it exposes what filth they are doing.

Re:pressure from the USA on the Spanish government (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34649968)

Just be happy no one is exposing the filth you do with your mother and sister.

Re:pressure from the USA on the Spanish government (1)

dargaud (518470) | more than 3 years ago | (#34650078)

Just be happy no one is exposing the filth you do with your mother and sister.

Even if true it concerns only those 3. The filth that my gov does concerns me.

I smiled for a moment... (4, Interesting)

Sparx139 (1460489) | more than 3 years ago | (#34649954)

... then I realized that the reason they rejected it had nothing to do with the fact that this sort of thing is bad =(

Re:I smiled for a moment... (4, Informative)

Beriaru (954082) | more than 3 years ago | (#34650052)

The citizen awareness was high because the sharing webpages closed showing the notice of the intent of the government of passing the law as a 'petty topic' so it could approve it without public discussion.

That raised protest, a DDoS attack to the web pages of ALL politic groups, a flood of emails and calls to the politics, and so on. That incidents produced some notices in national media that raised more the awareness of the public opinion.

At last, the politic groups was intimidated. The situation in Spain is critical, with a 20% of unemployment and a brutal credit crunch. So a high unpopular law as that could 'spark' some unrest.

Re:I smiled for a moment... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34650188)

Yes, of course. Approving this law would have sent people to the streets. Not the law cutting the aid to people who has no work, not the law cutting a 5% of the income of public workers...

Please, come to your senses. Most of the people do not worry about downloads when there is a 20% unemployement

Re:I smiled for a moment... (4, Informative)

Beriaru (954082) | more than 3 years ago | (#34650742)

Yep, they worry about soccer.

You're not spanish, or if you are, you're in denial. Spain had our laws and constitution stomped a week ago and nobody gave a damn. Had our worker rights ripped apart and nobody gave a damn. Our politics are a wealthy elite and the crisis don't touch them, but nobody-give-a-damn!

BUT, if you touch a local soccer team or closes music or video downloads, hell breaks loose.

This is Spain, and that's the reality in Spain.

Re:I smiled for a moment... (1)

TheGratefulNet (143330) | more than 3 years ago | (#34650826)

here, that concept is known as 'bread and circus'.
as long as the local distraction (soccer, in this case) continues, people will not rise up.

if a politician touches a 'third rail' (sensitive issue) then all hell can break loose. it would take a LOT, over here, though, to cause any kind of uprising. in the US, we're stuck in the 'fat, happy and slow' gear (as citizens) and we can't fix ourselves. I hope you can fix your self.

Re:... & slow (1)

TaoPhoenix (980487) | more than 3 years ago | (#34651108)

I'd say we're dejected and despairing rather than happy about all this.

Re:I smiled for a moment... (1)

Inconexo (1401585) | more than 3 years ago | (#34650720)

Quite true. The social pressure has been strong. And I think that it is the main cause behind the rejection, although some political moves could have changed the result.

But unemployment has nothing to do here. The only party that is having popularity problems with unemployment, and with debt, and with social cuts, is, obviously, the one who governs. Which happens to be the law proposer, and the only one that has voted 'yes' to the law (being a minority government, that means the rejection of the rule).

Transparancy (1)

MM-tng (585125) | more than 3 years ago | (#34649992)

This makes it very obvious why all government communication should be accessible to all it's citizens. People behave very different when they know what they are doing is secret.

redacted law (1)

seifried (12921) | more than 3 years ago | (#34650018)

How can you pass something in to law if it has been redacted and is thus not fully disclosed. You could have something in there like "we'll also need everyone to wear pink on Fridays or face the death penalty". How can we follow a law, let alone pass it if it has been redacted?

Re:redacted law (4, Informative)

marcansoft (727665) | more than 3 years ago | (#34650038)

I believe that's a mistranslation or a mistake by a Spanish speaker. In Spanish, "redactar" means "to write" (as in a book, an essay, a law, ...).

Re:redacted law (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34650144)

Redact [google.es] . Note in particular the definitions from Wordnet.

Spain beats with a fascist heart (5, Interesting)

FuckingNickName (1362625) | more than 3 years ago | (#34650028)

To give you an idea of the authoritarianism of Spain's government, around three weeks ago it issued a State of Alert [bbc.co.uk] because of striking ATCers which came down to, "If you refuse to work, you will be sent to jail." (Conversely, work sets you free.) Note that Spanish ATC was civilian, but an argument was formed that by striking you are denying people freedom of movement. This is probably one of the most Orwellian interpretations of "freedom" Western Europe has seen in recent years, and is the first time quasi-martial law has been enforced in Spain since the fall of Franco.

This is not the sort of government that is about to sympathise with filesharing arguments. It is, like all authoritarian governments, a stickler for procedure, and that's the only real reason this law didn't pass.

Re:Spain beats with a fascist heart (1)

bmcraec (1957382) | more than 3 years ago | (#34650050)

THAT is chilling. Perhaps WikiLeaks could not have waited any longer, as this small building block of ACTA may have been rushed a little, causing it to fail. There should be an echo effect against Canada's Bil C-32, which holds TPMs as the trump card over top of every other "gimme" spun by the PR machine pushing for it's passing. Enough of these documents come out and get examined by lot of smart people with access to pattern recognition techniques and some simple cause & effect logic, and the Illuminati may be revealed!

Re:Spain beats with a fascist heart (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34650076)

Also worthy of note is the fact that Air Traffic Controllers simply walked out on their jobs at 1700 hours, while planes were STILL in the air, which is a grave offense worthy of jail in itself for criminal negligence. They could have done things a lot differently to gain Joe Citizen's sympathy for their cause, instead they chose to act the way they did. And to further compound mathers a few days later some air controller lady came on national media whinging that she was being treated as a slave and had worked a huge number of hours the preceding month -- I really can't recall the number, but something in the region of 160, I think -- but failled to mention her paycheck for that very same month was almost 17.000 euro. Which is, frankly, a lot, even more so considering the average wage most spanish workers make, and the fact there's like 20% unemployment in Spain right now.

I'm not spanish, but I do live in Spain, and I think most ATC's are douchebags -- yes, they work lots of hours but so do I and everyone I know in the IT field, or even my wife, who is an university teacher. The difference is none of us get payed 17.000 euro every month. If they don't like what they're doing, go do something else, no one's forcing you to be an air traffic controller. You can't have your cake (less stressful, less demanding, less hours type of job) and eat it too (huge salary).

Not to mention the impact their strike had on the already fragile spanish economy, which is even more irresponsible. If they keep pulling stuff like that, soon they'll be affecting other people's jobs as well.

Re:Spain beats with a fascist heart (3, Insightful)

FuckingNickName (1362625) | more than 3 years ago | (#34650104)

No, they didn't simply all walk out at 1700, but nice toeing of the government line. There was a gradual cessation of operations and not one flight was put in danger. This doesn't mean that what they did was the best way to go about things, and it might have been against their terms of employment and open them up to civil action, but none of this justifies forcing them to work.

. The difference is none of us get payed 17.000 euro every month.

Ah, so your argument comes down to, "You're paid more than me so I get to impose slavery on you when I like without warning!" If you want to campaign for fairer salaries, that's absolutely reasonable, but your method is probably the worst way imaginable. Sigh, Spain's in for a dark few years.

If they don't like what they're doing, go do something else, no one's forcing you to be an air traffic controller.

So they should stop "being an ATC" if they don't like it, but it's okay when they actually stop for them to be forced back to work?

I fear that any censorship/Copyright law is going to be defeated not because it's immoral but because of the twisted envy displayed above, which means any defeat is temporary and depends on either bribing the electorate or waiting a few years.

Re:Spain beats with a fascist heart (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34650208)

There are a number of issues mixed together here.

  1. There are some professions or trades where it would be unreasonable not to prohibit or restrict strikes. One example is medicine, where even in strikes a minimal level of service must be maintained. I don't know what Spanish law says about electricity generation engineers striking, but it would surprise me if there aren't limits on that too. So one question is this: given that the impact of a strike goes far beyond affecting their employer's profits, to what extent is it reasonable for ATCs to strike, and contrariwise to what extent is it reasonable for the law to limit them striking?
  2. Who is responsible for the conditions the ATCs are complaining about? This is one point where there is no agreement, and I don't know whom to believe.
  3. Are the conditions worth complaining about? That's one issue the other AC raised and you seem to have taken the worst possible interpretation of what (s)he said. Given the amount they earn, if they have genuine complaints they should have enough saved up to be able to quit, spend a year or two training for another job, and not worry about paying the mortgage. Although in that case they might discover that the grass isn't as green on the other side as they think.
  4. Should the military and Guardia Civil have been involved in the way they were? I was rather surprised by this, actually - I'm sure I read in the summer that Moratinos was talking about putting military ATCs in the civilian towers, not about pointing pistols at civilian ATCs.

Re:Spain beats with a fascist heart (4, Insightful)

FuckingNickName (1362625) | more than 3 years ago | (#34650256)

1. I disagree that doctors and electricity generation staff shouldn't be allowed (through criminal law) to strike. If you get to the point where the only reason they're doing the job is because of the gun pointed at their head, you've already lost the point entirely. Regardless, you don't apply martial law to stop strikes: if you want to militarise some profession, which is effectively what you're doing when you make striking illegal, you do it in advance and make sure every worker has provided informed consent.

2. Are you asking who the controllers are working for? AENA is government-owned but the straw which broke the camel's back was the proposal to privatise.

3. Well, getting paid more doesn't make you immune to tiredness and the harm to conentration caused by working excessive hours. Nor does getting paid a lot mean you should lose the right to negotiate or to strike. You as voter are welcome to petition the government as employer to reduce air traffic controller wages, because the solution to hearing that a worker gets paid too much (as opposed to all the useless bureaucrats and bankers who gain ten times as much and are of no social benefit) is to make sure he suffers as much as you. Regardless, you're not welcome to enslave the air traffic controllers because you're bitter that they get paid more than you.

4. Quite.

Re:Spain beats with a fascist heart (1)

Dr. Evil (3501) | more than 3 years ago | (#34650640)

"...if you want to militarise some profession, which is effectively what you're doing when you make striking illegal, you do it in advance and make sure every worker has provided informed consent."

A large counter-balancing force to the strike is the risk that the company you're working for will not be competitive. You may lose your job if the organization dissolves.

In any job where there's a government granted monopoly, there is no such counter-force. Your company will never go bankrupt, you will never lose marketshare. There's no danger to striking.

Combining government-granted immunity to job loss with a right to strike, is a power imbalance. Allow open competition or take away the right to strike.

Re:Spain beats with a fascist heart (1)

FuckingNickName (1362625) | more than 3 years ago | (#34650668)

OK, there are two different "rights to strike" here. One is the right to strike, under certain conditions and usually via a well-known procedure involving your union, without being immediately dismissed. This right varies across Western countries and often involves specific regulation in the public sector.

The other is the right to strike without having a gun held to your head and being forced to work. This is what Spain is denying (for ATC today and for you or me tomorrow).

Spot the hole (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34651276)

The ATCs weren't striking using a well-known procedure. I suspect there would be a bit more sympathy from the public if they'd been dragged off the picket line rather than examined by doctors when they falsely claimed to be sick.

Re:Spain beats with a fascist heart (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34650718)

2. Are you asking who the controllers are working for?

No. I know they were working for AENA. The controllers say that AENA was limiting recruitment, but other sources (whether informed by AENA or not, I don't know) say that it was a closed shop and the controllers were the ones limiting recruitment because they wanted the overtime.

3. Well, getting paid more doesn't make you immune to tiredness and the harm to conentration caused by working excessive hours. Nor does getting paid a lot mean you should lose the right to negotiate or to strike.

My point wasn't that money makes everything better, or that ATCs are overpaid. Their basic wage is high, but reasonable. IMO the thing AENA needs to do isn't cut wages but recruit 40% more ATCs. That would tackle the overtime and result in more alert controllers and less overall wage bill. But my point 3 was that the ATCs had an option which strikers tend not to have: to quit and keeping paying the mortgage while they train and look for another job. How many took that option? What does that tell us about the working conditions?

Re:Spain beats with a fascist heart (2)

ccguy (1116865) | more than 3 years ago | (#34650916)

3. Well, getting paid more doesn't make you immune to tiredness and the harm to conentration caused by working excessive hours.

Well, it seems to be that way, because ATC are happy to work as many hours as needed as long as they are paid 3x the regular rate. So it seems that money helps with tiredness.

The thing is, the administration says "You have to WORK 1600 hours a year". And the ATCs says, "OK, but that's not real work hours, we'll take our vacations from there, our union hours from there, if we meet with a representation we'll take it from there too...". So instead of 1600, some wanted to work 1200 or so. And then, because more hours are needed, they say "sure, we'll do it, but this is overtime".

Well, fuck you. The administration did the right thing by saying, "It's 1600 hours of actual controlling, not fooling around".

Re:Spain beats with a fascist heart (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34650218)

which is a grave offense worthy of jail in itself for criminal negligence.

WTF has that got to do with legalized slavery?

yes, they work lots of hours but so do I

If you misconfigure a router someone doesn't get porn for half an hour. If an air traffic controller falls asleep...

...fuck it, you're a moron.

Re:Spain beats with a fascist heart (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34651274)

Air Traffic controllers do have a difficult job though. Because for some strange reason, the rain in Spain falls mainly on the planes. Strange but true!!!!

Re:Spain beats with a fascist heart (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34650222)

What they did was not go on a strike, but social security fraud. I'll explain: if you go on a strike you won't get paid for that period of time (sure, they can't fire you but they don't have to pay you until you get back to work). What these assholes did (other than fucking up vacations and job interviews) was call in sick. All of them, the same day. They feigned illness so that they wouldn't lose wages (in Spain and AFAIK most of Europe sick days are paid all the same).

And now, for something completely different: the "Internet Censorship Law", which was a part of a broader pack of laws called "Sustainable Economy Law" (LOL), was rejected because the Catalonians (whose vote would have granted majority and therefore approval for this law) weren't getting enough economic advantages and voted against it. Fortunately, their greed did a good thing for the Spanish people this time.

Re:Spain beats with a fascist heart (1)

FuckingNickName (1362625) | more than 3 years ago | (#34650302)

What these assholes did (other than fucking up vacations and job interviews)

Oh boo hoo aeroplane travel is a fundamental right and people owe you.

was call in sick.

That's cheeky, and perhaps wrong, but it's not exactly an unknown method of staging a strike and there's enough evidence to treat it as a strike. Calling in sick when you're not sick is not justification for enslaving you. How many different government apologists will come forward today?

Re:Spain beats with a fascist heart (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34650470)

Either you go on a real strike and don't get paid, or you don't go on a strike. Faking an illness so that you don't have to work while getting paid (a percentage of it on the taxpayer's dime, since in Spain your employer doesn't pay 100% of you salary when you're ill: a part of it is paid by the Social Security System). If you want to screw with the holiday plans and daily business of thousands of people, at least do it properly and legally. There is such a thing as minimum services, you know.

I don't care about your country's government considering fraud "cheeky" (I suppose they consider rape "kinky"). In Spain both are felonies, and criminals should be prosecuted.

Re:Spain beats with a fascist heart (1)

FuckingNickName (1362625) | more than 3 years ago | (#34650510)

In Spain both are felonies, and criminals should be prosecuted.

But that's not what happened, is it? One simple principle of a country subject to the rule of law is that you charge a man with a crime you reasonably suspect he has committed. You don't highlight people who are unpopular then impose martial law to force them to work.

If you think they've committed "social security fraud", even when any reasonable man knows that they were staging a strike and bitter scrutiny of worker protections will be to every worker's detriment, petition the government to have them dealt with for that.

Re:Spain beats with a fascist heart (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34650582)

What happened is exactly that: they pretended to be sick and got a doctor to sign them off. Many illnesses are easily faked, but a very specific segment of the population getting ill on the same day, on separate locations, without an epidemic going on? Extremely unlikely.

If I, or any Joe Schmoe, were caught doing that we'd at least lose our jobs and be prosecuted by the State. Since the the Spanish government can't realistically do that with these folks (retraining military ATCers or getting new civilian ones would take too long) they only charged the visible heads of the conspiracy with secession. Personally I wasn't affected by this so-called "strike", but that doesn't mean that I'm not angry about the underhanded and illegal way in which they carried out the whole thing; it's not just "somebody else's problem".

Re:Spain beats with a fascist heart (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34650598)

You're misinterpreting the GP. They weren't charged with SS fraud (or under any civilian law) but instead put under military rule, which is not reasonable in a democracy.

Re:Spain beats with a fascist heart (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34650660)

It may not be reasonable in some democracies, but in Spain it is because it is allowed by the Spanish law. At least in Spain you don't get groped and x-rayed at every damn airport, although you can be held with no apparent reason for an extended period of time (can't remember how many days, it was one of those good-for-nothing anti-terrorist laws they passed a few years ago). The thing is, laws and rights (as well as fiat money) are good only as far as the government is willing to back or enforce them, and that's true everywhere.

In this case, the state of emergency was more than called for. No collective should be able to hold a country hostage, especially a country with an already damaged economy (no matter what the government says, I can't see the light at the end of the tunnel; R&D has decreased and money is still being wasted on the construction business, when obscene amounts of flats are still empty because their price has hardly dropped). There was more than vacation plans at stake, unless you can think of a way to get an organ for a transplant across the country by train or car in about 2 hours.

Re:Spain beats with a fascist heart (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34651034)

The irony is that ATC have told that they are better treated under the military rule that under AENA, I heard directly from an ATC that their superior of AENA without ATC preparation where giving order of what planes prioritize without any reasonable justification and that was provoking problems.

Another think is that the military intervention was prepared at the end of summer for if that situation raised, and the detonate of all was a little think as the new law force then to work to recover the time of their legal leaves without retribution like sickness, fatherhood, maternity... and AENA didn't contracted the new ATC that was agreed in their last collective agreement, even if the ATC where opposed if AENA had comply that the ATC can't oppose the new places without legal problems.

Re:Spain beats with a fascist heart (1)

ccguy (1116865) | more than 3 years ago | (#34650938)

. Calling in sick when you're not sick is not justification for enslaving you

Yes. Paying you 300 euros per hour and not letting you calling sick when you are not sick is slavery, no doubt.

Well, calling in sick if you are not sick is grounds for layoff. Yes, they can't lay off all ATCs yet, because there are no replacement for now, but hopefully they made a list of all these people that wanted to get a paid free day in the middle of the longest weekend of the year and leave 600,000 people without vacations.

I guess going from a salary of 900,000 euros a year to something like 1000-1500 if you are lucky and find a job doing something else will put things in perspective.

Re:Spain beats with a fascist heart (1)

Damnshock (1293558) | more than 3 years ago | (#34651076)

Yes. Paying you 300 euros per hour and not letting you calling sick when you are not sick is slavery, no doubt.

First: sources?

Second: Your company doesn't let you call sick when you are not and they can't *force* you to work. They can (and probably should) fire you. That's all.

Well, calling in sick if you are not sick is grounds for layoff. Yes, they can't lay off all ATCs yet, because there are no replacement for now, but hopefully they made a list of all these people that wanted to get a paid free day in the middle of the longest weekend of the year and leave 600,000 people without vacations.

The real number was 300.000, not 600.000.

I guess going from a salary of 900,000 euros a year to something like 1000-1500 if you are lucky and find a job doing something else will put things in perspective.

Again... sources?

Re:Spain beats with a fascist heart (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34650234)

To allow non spanish slashdotters to understand the whole affair, it's better to give full data instead the trash you're talking.

ATCers, after decades of pressing the governments with not-so-legal strikes, had got a whole series of employment benefits that made spanish air traffic management costs unaffordable: Out of western european market salaries, ATCers controlling the access to ATCers school and ATCers jobs (i.e., they didn't allow the access to foreign ATCers to spanish jobs, because foreign workers were expected to work with lower salaries, as in the rest of Europe, so they shouldn't be competitive) ... When the government passed a law to limit all this non-sense, they simply stop working. Without notice. All the ATCers left their works unattended, closing the full spanish air space with the airports full of people starting a holiday period... and disrupting most european air traffic.
Spanish government reacted applying a non-usual but effective action, included in the Spanish Constitution to fight against the situations which esential services or main rights are been disrupted by others, as then. After the government tried to negotiate with this "workers" (they went to the meeting asking even higher privileges that before), it applied that exceptional action that, among other things, put all the ATCers under millitary command (their work doesn't change, but any intentional disruption of it becomes a millitary crime, that is quite serious in Spain). Most spanish people had been happier if the government had fired all this people instantly, but due to the control the ATCers had on the official ATCers school, there's no people capable to replace them now ... So finally they'll be working after Christmas holidays, and then I suppose they'll be progressively replaced, affording the trials derived of the crimes they commited.

Excuse me for the mistakes in my writing, but I can't stand that somebody calls fascist to spanish people (I say people, not government, because all spanish people supports the government in this case, except ATCers, of course :D ). Fascism is when privileged people try to keep their unacceptable privileges even when they damage their country and the people who lives in it.

Re:Spain beats with a fascist heart (1)

jmerelo (216716) | more than 3 years ago | (#34650456)

but I can't stand that somebody calls fascist to spanish people (I say people, not government, because all spanish people supports the government in this case, except ATCers, of course :D ). Fascism is when privileged people try to keep their unacceptable privileges even when they damage their country and the people who lives in it.

The only ones that are being called fascists are those who compose the government and have taken the decision of militarizing the air controllers, after pushing them to a wild strike by approving a law taking rights away from then precisely the day before the longest long weekend in Spain, not the people. There's still a difference.

Re:Spain beats with a fascist heart (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34650692)

Yes, never mind that the ATC staff are holding the country hostage by demanding ridiculous compensation and conditions far in excess of most others in the country.

Re:Spain beats with a fascist heart (1)

ccguy (1116865) | more than 3 years ago | (#34650954)

The only ones that are being called fascists are those who compose the government and have taken the decision of militarizing the air controllers, after pushing them to a wild strike by approving a law taking rights away from then precisely the day before the longest long weekend in Spain, not the people.

They published that law (which was just a clarification of terms) that day precisely because the ATCs said they were going home for the rest of the year since they had already "worked" all the hours. The administration just told them how to do the math.

Re:Spain beats with a fascist heart (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34650310)

I guess you where not one of the hundreds of thousands of stranded passengers because of an illegal strike (because it was not even a strike, it was just "let's everyone pretend it's seek and go home and the same time") leaving the country airspace paralyzed the Friday before a long weekend. The Spanish government sucks at many things, including this IP protection law, but you are adding bananas with apples.

Re:Spain beats with a fascist heart (1)

Alioth (221270) | more than 3 years ago | (#34650322)

Authoritarian != fascist. Soviet Russia was authoratarian, but not fascist. Iran has an authoratarian but not fascist government. Spain's current government is not fascist nor beats with a fascist heart, but it is one of the more authoratarian European governments, right up there with the British government.

Re:Spain beats with a fascist heart (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34650346)

it isn't a fascist goverment, but many of the laws of the Kingdom of Spain are based on past fascists regulations, which lead us to funny squizofrenic situations like the ones at the airports.

Re:Spain beats with a fascist heart (1)

mcvos (645701) | more than 3 years ago | (#34650578)

Authoritarian != fascist. Soviet Russia was authoratarian, but not fascist.

Not every aspect of Soviet Russia, perhaps, but Stalinism was an excellent example of fascism. Possibly more fascist than nazism, even.

Re:Spain beats with a fascist heart (1)

Inconexo (1401585) | more than 3 years ago | (#34650776)

I think it depends of what you understand with 'fascism'. But I think that, in strict definition, Stalinism was not fascism.

I mean, it was a criminal system, which killed a lot of people, authoritarian, and perharps the more harmful in History.

But it is was not derived from italian national syndicalism.

Re:Spain beats with a fascist heart (1)

mcvos (645701) | more than 3 years ago | (#34650798)

It's not merely about killing people and being authoritarian. It's about how society is structured. You're right that Stalinism had completely different roots than German or Italian fascism, and they were ideologically at odds with each other, but in the end, Stalinism wasn't so different. Through a completely different route, it got to pretty much the same location. It wasn't structured bottom-up, like communism should be, but very hierarchically top-down, with an almost divine leader, the politbureau as his inner circle, and around that the party and the regular people are expected to sacrifice their lives for the Party, the leader or for Mother Russia.

Re:Spain beats with a fascist heart (3, Informative)

Gorshkov (932507) | more than 3 years ago | (#34651042)

Some Political Science 101 for the people in this thread, who have been throwing around terms loosely with no real understanding of their meanings.

Communism: A political/economic theory with the proletariat (the people) at the centre, who wield power. In a communist society, there *is* no state - it has "withered away", to quote some old dead guy named Marx, who was also the only Marx in history without a sense of humour.

Fascism: A political/economic theory with corporations at the centre, with the government wielding power on their behalf.

Spain under Franco was Fascist, no argument.

Soviet Union under Stalin was *not* communist, in any way shape or form. It espoused communism, but there is a difference between using communism as a rationalization for your actions, and actually *being* communist.

The Soviet Union was, depending on the time, either a dictatorship, or an oligarchy (think dictatorship, but instead of having a single ruler, it is run by a group of individuals. That would be the Politburo). It could accurately be described as an oligarchy, a dictatorship, or a police state.

Spain under Franco could also be described as a dictatorship, a police state, *or* a fascist state. All are accurate.

But there is no possible way to describe the Soviet Union as fascist. It's just plain wrong.

Re:Spain beats with a fascist heart (1)

mcvos (645701) | more than 3 years ago | (#34651310)

Fascism: A political/economic theory with corporations at the centre, with the government wielding power on their behalf.

This is one of two definitions that I encounter a lot. The other one is about society structured along concentric circles around the great leader and his inner circle. They're different, but they both get used.

Note that according to your definition, the US is also arguably fascist. (Not so much according to the second definition, though.)

But there is no possible way to describe the Soviet Union as fascist. It's just plain wrong.

Well, some experts disagree with you on that.

Re:Spain beats with a fascist heart (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34650428)

To give you an idea of the authoritarianism of Spain's government, around three weeks ago it issued a State of Alert [bbc.co.uk] because of striking ATCers which came down to, "If you refuse to work, you will be sent to jail." (Conversely, work sets you free.) Note that Spanish ATC was civilian, but an argument was formed that by striking you are denying people freedom of movement. This is probably one of the most Orwellian interpretations of "freedom" Western Europe has seen in recent years, and is the first time quasi-martial law has been enforced in Spain since the fall of Franco.

This is not the sort of government that is about to sympathise with filesharing arguments. It is, like all authoritarian governments, a stickler for procedure, and that's the only real reason this law didn't pass.

Well I don't know if you live in this world or you're looking to Spain in another dimension.

The truth is that ATCers went on strike (and they had reason, some of their privileges were revoked) but they went on strike so many times in the recent years (only for a higher salary) that the public opinion can't hear now their cries.

It's theirs fault, they shouldn't have f*cked up the whole air space only for their salaries so many times.

Re:Spain beats with a fascist heart (1)

Inconexo (1401585) | more than 3 years ago | (#34650780)

No. They didn't go on strike. They did not come to work, which is different.

Re:Spain beats with a fascist heart (1)

Damnshock (1293558) | more than 3 years ago | (#34650554)

To give you an idea of the authoritarianism of Spain's government, around three weeks ago it issued a State of Alert [bbc.co.uk] because of striking ATCers which came down to, "If you refuse to work, you will be sent to jail." (Conversely, work sets you free.) Note that Spanish ATC was civilian, but an argument was formed that by striking you are denying people freedom of movement. This is probably one of the most Orwellian interpretations of "freedom" Western Europe has seen in recent years, and is the first time quasi-martial law has been enforced in Spain since the fall of Franco.

This is not the sort of government that is about to sympathise with filesharing arguments. It is, like all authoritarian governments, a stickler for procedure, and that's the only real reason this law didn't pass.

These is just bu*****t

They did not go on strike. No they did not. They just stopped working and paralyzed the whole country.

Don't get me wrong, I understand most of what they are asking for but... theirs was not the right way of doing things!

The government did the only thing they could have to keep the country working. I do not like what happened but feels right to me that "desperate situations require desperate measures".

I'm not saying I agree with what the government did to this group of people but, again, how they reacted was totally unreasonable and they relied on the fact that they control the whole Spanish air traffic and could block the country. That's not going on strike, that's not negotiating: that's blackmailing!

Have a look at the whole picture please and not only to what you wanna see

Regards

Re:Spain beats with a fascist heart (1)

FuckingNickName (1362625) | more than 3 years ago | (#34650632)

They just stopped working and paralyzed the whole country.

That's weird, because I'm in the UK right now and bad weather has meant airports intermittently opening and closing on several days over the past fortnight. Oddly enough, and despite our awful lack of preparedness for snow+ice, it didn't "paralyze the whole country". Stuff still happens when people can't take a plane for a few days.

"desperate situations require desperate measures".

There's nothing desperate about not being able to fly. Even if there was, enslaving people is not an acceptable solution.

they relied on the fact that they control the whole Spanish air traffic and could block the country. That's not going on strike, that's not negotiating: that's blackmailing!

All business negotiations are based on assuming that you're needed to do a job and will not work unless terms are agreed upon. The alternative is to enslave people (by law or by otherwise making them sufficiently desperate) so they have no choice but to work. It appears the Spanish government has just set precedent for this and the Spanish people are worryingly naive in assuming that it'll not happen again when it comes time to cut benefits in their line of work.

(I just recall TVE mentioning the incident with Charles/Camilla's car, i.e. rowdy student protests in another country, as part of the reason why it ws necessary to maintain the State of Alert. So the excuse has already had its scope widened.)

Re:Spain beats with a fascist heart (1)

Damnshock (1293558) | more than 3 years ago | (#34650676)

FYI this is not the first time we've gone into "Estado de Alerta".

It is obvious you can still live without flying for a day or two, nobody says that. The thing is they did what they did at the time they did it! At the opening of what is called a "puente" in spanish slang: some non-working days kept close enough so you can get one holiday day at your work and have 5 days in a raw of no work. What does that represent? Probably the most active 5 days in plane movement of the whole year. Imagine there is an enormous accident and doctors/surgeons decide to go "on strike" at that moment: what would you think then? are they negotiating or are they blackmailing you(the government, that is)?

I see your point though. However I'm afraid that you , as I said before, don't see the whole picture in this.

Regards

PS: TVE can mention whatever they want. The reason to keep the "Estado de Alerta" is because Christmas' eve is tomorrow ;)

Re:Spain beats with a fascist heart (1)

Inconexo (1401585) | more than 3 years ago | (#34650762)

I think it is right to praise things well done as well to condemn bad things.

Anyway, your clarifications aren't needed, as the government that issued the State of Alert, is the same that tried to approve the rule. It is the rest of the parliament that has rejected it.

Re:Spain beats with a fascist heart (1)

TheGratefulNet (143330) | more than 3 years ago | (#34650834)

wait - franco is stil dead??

Re:Spain beats with a fascist heart (1)

ccguy (1116865) | more than 3 years ago | (#34650890)

Excuse me? The government did exactly what they had to do. They refused to allow a bunch of over paid people, making as much as 900,000 euros *per year* to take the population hostage (again) by closing all airport operations. Had previous administrations addresses this issue properly we wouldn't have reached this critical situation in the first place. I'm very very satisfied that they did what they had to. Airports are a public service that must run at all times, and strikes must be properly notified, services must be working to a minimum rate, and so on.

Re:Spain beats with a fascist heart (1)

icebraining (1313345) | more than 3 years ago | (#34651072)

making as much as 900,000 euros *per year*

Just FYI, that doesn't really say much. I could say that Portuguese business owners make as much as millions per year, yet 99.6% of the businesses are actually very small and their owners don't make 1/100 of that.

Re:Spain beats with a fascist heart (1)

FuckingNickName (1362625) | more than 3 years ago | (#34651202)

They refused to allow a bunch of over paid people, making as much as 900,000 euros *per year*

Irrelevant appeal to emotion.

to take the population hostage (again)

Awful redefinition of "hostage". I want an Xbox within half an hour and you're holding me hostage by not flying a helicopter to my garden with it.

by closing all airport operations.

No, AENA closed all airport operations because a set of air traffic controllers chose not to work...

Had previous administrations addresses this issue properly

...and other air traffic controllers were not available because you the Spanish voter didn't consider it important enough to negotiate either more reasonable terms for all parties or pre-arrange a fallback.

I'm very very satisfied that they did what they had to. Airports are a public service that must run at all times, and strikes must be properly notified, services must be working to a minimum rate, and so on.

Had must must must: all this obligation on the worker to satisfy corporation (this being about AENA's privatisation)! Thank goodness for all those Franco legacies in Spanish law or there'd be no teeth behind the populist propaganda the government uses to justify slavery.

No one expects... (0)

theNAM666 (179776) | more than 3 years ago | (#34650128)

the Spanish to reject inquisition.

(But now they've gone and done it).

Amuzant (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34650170)

They can try and stop a few, but they will not succeed in stopping all of them. Bancuri poze filmulete [amuzant.eu]

Spain is always a pain ... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34650264)

Spanish people's concept of intellectual copyright laws, is almost non-existent, due to the cannibalistic sharky behaivour of those agencies. And last wikileaks proved the commissioning of american companies. The EU did not accept many of the Spanish government laws related to extra taxes on any kind of device which may be recordable, a tax on benefit of intellectual copyright agencies, around 10 € per Hard disk, even if you were an IT company. Spain is always a pain.

Re:Spain is always a pain ... (1)

SuricouRaven (1897204) | more than 3 years ago | (#34650396)

Thus the US's demands that new copyright-tightening laws be passed as discretely as possible. People can't object to a law they don't even know about until after it passes.

http://www.asrulvictory.com (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34650342)

thenks mr...

For some reason i feel like listening flamenco (1)

unity100 (970058) | more than 3 years ago | (#34650518)

today. there has to be a reason, out of the blue.

Opposite to France (1)

horza (87255) | more than 3 years ago | (#34650570)

France has passed a law "Loppsi 2" which allows the Interior Minister to ban any web site without any legal process. The Ministry for the Interior sends a blacklist to ISPs which they have to enforce. Though ostensibly to cut down "child porn" and malware sites, there aren't any actual restrictions on what kind of site can be blacklisted and could be used to black out a site such as Wikileaks.

Phillip.

Legal is not the right word (3, Informative)

Damnshock (1293558) | more than 3 years ago | (#34650572)

I'll copy+paste myself from Osnews:

File sharing is not "legal" in Spain. It is something called, in the law world, "alegal" which means something is not regulated nor prohibited. To give a weird example: it is legal to say something because you have the right of free speech but... would it be legal to kill an e.t.? Right now, with the law in hands, that would be "alegal".

Re:Legal is not the right word (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34650662)

Exactly. Only people profiting from copyright infringement are punishable in Spain (the websites they want to close are the typical torrent/emule sites with tons of movies, tons of ads making a lot of money from the ads). If you share for free, you're good, even with the new law. The problem is the new law gives the government power to piss on your constitutional rights with little judicial supervision.

Re:Legal is not the right word (2)

Zangief (461457) | more than 3 years ago | (#34650824)

If something is not ilegal, then it's legal. This "alegal" thing is a dangerous concept.

We can't expect the laws to define absolutely every aspect of the human (or alien!) experience.

Re:Legal is not the right word (1)

Damnshock (1293558) | more than 3 years ago | (#34650872)

If something is not ilegal, then it's legal.

That's not right. At least in Spanish. Definition of the word legal: "Prescrito por ley y conforme a ella." Which is "prescribed by law and according to it". Therefore, something not illegal doesn't automatically make it legal. That's when "alegal" kicks in.

You might be using the word "legal" in a biased way ;)

We can't expect the laws to define absolutely every aspect of the human (or alien!) experience.

I totally agree :)

Re:Legal is not the right word (1)

ccguy (1116865) | more than 3 years ago | (#34650962)

File sharing IS legal. Let's not invent things.

Re:Legal is not the right word (1)

Damnshock (1293558) | more than 3 years ago | (#34651026)

Well, yes, file sharing is legal. File sharing of copyrighted material is not. It is (in Spain) "alegal".

File sharing is legal (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34651030)

I can share all my files, and it is legal.

I guess you mean copyrighted file sharing. It is legal too as long as it is made between individuals and there is no money swap. It is even a right (derecho de copia privada, something like private copy right), and we pay a canon to the SGAE (the Spanish RIAA) to compensate for it. Yes, we pay to compensate for a right, and we pay to the SGAE even if the copyrightholder isn't member of the SGAE but these are another stories.

Wrong summary? (1)

aiwarrior (1030802) | more than 3 years ago | (#34650784)

IANAL but i think the summary, like lately on /. stories, says things that are not enterely true. I quote from Ars what really happens "Spanish prosecutors have also suggested that, while P2P remains illegal, it is essentially decriminalized" Ars article [arstechnica.com] PS: I don't agree with the analisys made in Ars article.

Fp 7aco (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34650840)

AT LEAST.' NOBODY BSD machines I know it sux0rs, The project so on, FreeB8SD went numbers. The loss The official GAY the project

A victory for Anonymous? (1)

jfiling (844278) | more than 3 years ago | (#34650856)

I know the 4channers launched a DDoS against congreso.es over this issue. I wonder if that swayed the debate at all.

Google translations needs more work (1)

Drakkenmensch (1255800) | more than 3 years ago | (#34650922)

Clicking on the link in the summary brought me to the google translated version. Here's a fragment of the headache inducing result:

The arguments put forward by all parliamentary groups except the PSOE, passed from the doubts about the constitutionality of the text, in the case of CC, PP and ERC-IU-ICV, to consider the provision "a Pepe own fudge and Otilio Leak "as said ERC spokesman Joan Ridao, or" the law of the kick to the modem ", as stated by the deputy of ICV Nuria Buenaventura.

Yeah... most of my email spam makes more sense these days.

a Pepe own fudge and Otilio Leak (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34651124)

"un chapuza propia de Pepe Gotera y Otilio" -> "a botch made by Pepe Gotera and Otilio"
Pepe Gotera and Otilio are two comic characters.

http://usuarios.multimania.es/personajesdetebeo/hpbimg/pepego.jpg [multimania.es]

http://www.motorspain.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/pepe-gotera-comic-4-480x362.jpg [motorspain.com]

Re:Google translations needs more work (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34651216)

"a Pepe own fudge and Otilio Leak" , is a google "translation" of an old spanish comic called "Pepe Gotera and Otilio" (Joe "leak" and Otilius), two plumbist who screw anything they touched.

google images for "Pepe Gotera y Otilio", and ya'll see them, hope this helps

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