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One Tip Enough To Put Name On Terrorist Watch List

Soulskill posted more than 2 years ago | from the brb-gotta-make-a-phone-call-or-two dept.

Government 446

Frosty P writes "As a result of the US Government's complete failure to investigate credible warnings about 'Underwear Bomber' Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab from none other than Abdulmutallab's father, senior American counterterrorism officials say they have altered their criteria so that a single-source tip can lead to a name being placed on the watch list. Civil liberties groups warn that it is now even more likely that individuals who pose no threat will be swept up in America's security apparatus, leading to potential violations of their privacy and making it difficult for them to travel. 'They are secret lists with no way for people to petition to get off or even to know if they're on,' said Chris Calabrese, legislative counsel for the American Civil Liberties Union."

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TSA Agents (5, Funny)

onefiddle (997080) | more than 2 years ago | (#34721164)

Just waiting to batch upload all the names of TSA agents. What will the Feds do then?

Re:TSA Agents (5, Insightful)

TubeSteak (669689) | more than 2 years ago | (#34721438)

Just waiting to batch upload all the names of TSA agents. What will the Feds do then?

Hire another batch of police academy dropouts?

Re:TSA Agents (5, Insightful)

dhasenan (758719) | more than 2 years ago | (#34721440)

More efficiently, upload the names of as many congressional lobbyists as you can find. I suspect US senators and representatives are immune (or at least have a Secret Service escort who can wave them through), but if a thousand lobbyists found themselves unable to fly, the change will happen in a matter of months.

It might work better to flag close relatives of congresspeople. Outside the immediate family so they won't reasonably have access to that Secret Service escort, but close enough to be in close contact.

Re:TSA Agents (2, Interesting)

mwvdlee (775178) | more than 2 years ago | (#34721572)

Or even better, no change will happen and lobbyists can't fly anymore. Making them unable to do their jobs, thereby making the government "of the people, by the people, for the people" again.

Re:TSA Agents (1)

commodore64_love (1445365) | more than 2 years ago | (#34721574)

I LOVE this idea. Now how do I get ahold of a list for Microsoft, Amazon, and RIAA's lobbyists? Hmmm.

The only problem is that these companies have so many resources that if their lobbyists get blacklisted by the TSA, they'll just hire new ones from their pool of ~1 million employees.

Re:TSA Agents (1)

91degrees (207121) | more than 2 years ago | (#34721596)

I was thinking aides of congresspeople. Presumably they'll want to travel with a PA or someone.

Re:TSA Agents (4, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#34721610)

I hate to burst your bubble, but I seem to remember that sen. Edward Kennedy, wasn't able to board an airplane for some months when his name turned up on the no-fly list for alleged IRA connections. As it turned out, that was another Edward Kennedy. So being in congress or having the best know face in American politics will not get you on the plane. The list is always right, reality is often mistaken.

Re:TSA Agents (1)

Stargoat (658863) | more than 2 years ago | (#34721654)

According to Ron Paul, he undergoes a Freedom Fondle every time he flies due to a replacement knee.

Re:TSA Agents (1)

mangu (126918) | more than 2 years ago | (#34721450)

Just waiting to batch upload all the names of TSA agents. What will the Feds do then?

They will put your name on the top of the list.

Re:TSA Agents (1)

MoldySpore (1280634) | more than 2 years ago | (#34721560)

I'm waiting for one of the TSA agents to batch upload all the naked images stored on those new scanners to the web. Although it will suck for anyone whose photo is released, perhaps that is what needs to happen to force some of the latest ridiculous security circus practices that have been put into play, which only hinder people's traveling. If any regular douche can become a TSA agent, I put no faith in their ability to screen out would be perverts and sexual deviants.

sign everyone you know up (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#34721172)

hmm I'm gonna foreward them a list of everyone I went to highschool with. I have a feeling that they were all terrorists.

Re:sign everyone you know up (1)

memnock (466995) | more than 2 years ago | (#34721254)

that thought crossed my mind also. what if half the country were on the watch list? would the feds really suspect so many people? especially if the bulk of those tips came from a concentrated, frenzied effort of several hundred "tipsters"? (i don't know if they'd be able to tell apart sources.) or would they come to their senses and realize what an asinine system they have in place?

Re:sign everyone you know up (1)

JustOK (667959) | more than 2 years ago | (#34721380)

half the country???? The WHOLE country is under suspicion!

Re:sign everyone you know up (1)

puterg33k (1920022) | more than 2 years ago | (#34721468)

It's ultimately those who know nothing about the system that have the Freedom to comment about it.

Re:sign everyone you know up (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#34721522)

Welcome to DDR (East Germany).

Terrorists succeed (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#34721176)

Freedom faltered

Perhaps. (-1, Troll)

puterg33k (1920022) | more than 2 years ago | (#34721180)

I would think it would take a great amount of effort and persons to keep track of someone. I really doubt our civil liberties are at stake. The GREAT majority of people just aren't that important. Don't be ego-centric, realize this likely doesn't apply to you, and you will in no way shape or form be effected by this. As far as the difficulty for travel, come on; how much worse could they possibly make it...? It's horrid even for the military.

Re:Perhaps. (5, Insightful)

noidentity (188756) | more than 2 years ago | (#34721212)

It's not ego-centrism to be wary of reducing the barrier between having your rights respected and having them violated, without any ability of recourse. That you read this as being ego-centric suggests that you're an ego-centric person who imagines that others are as well.

Re:Perhaps. (-1, Troll)

puterg33k (1920022) | more than 2 years ago | (#34721312)

You're trying to evoke a reaction; I should have been smart, not fell into the trap. Oh well... In any event...You have an option, take a car or a boat. Their is always a solution, you must look for it. Personally, I'd rather have my airports be .0001 more secure. I'm sure their will be speculation, their are bad seeds in every business. Yes, some people will violate your right and giggle about it with thier friends. It's human nature, there's no finite system. It takes your convience more than anything, something that people hold so dear. I have absolutely NOTHING to hide, so I don't mind one bit.

Then again, maybe I am just ego-centric. You know what, you're right!

Re:Perhaps. (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#34721330)

>I have absolutely NOTHING to hide, so I don't mind one bit. Useful idiot.

Re:Perhaps. (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#34721342)

Personally, I'd rather have my airports be .0001 more secure.

We've lost the "war on terror".

Re:Perhaps. (4, Insightful)

Toe, The (545098) | more than 2 years ago | (#34721390)

In IT security, there is always a trade-off between usability and security. The key is the efficiency of the security. Really inefficient security will greatly decrease usability without enhancing security much (ala Microsoft's idea of perpetual dialog boxes in Vista). Really efficient security will have relatively much less impact on security (e.g., having the primary user of a computer not be its admin).

There is no reason we shouldn't take the same attitude with airport (etc.) security trading off with liberty. Turning all citizens into suspects is simply bad efficiency (and a serious betrayal of the "innocent until proven guilty" principle that is crucial to American democracy).

If you want 100% computer security, you unplug and wipe the computer (or better, disintegrate it). If we want 100% security from terrorists, we should incarcerate everyone in the world including ourselves (or better, disintegrate the planet).

Re:Perhaps. (1)

arkane1234 (457605) | more than 2 years ago | (#34721496)

What we've done in America is akin to installing Norton Antivirus to fight our terrorist viruses.
Sure, it helps fight it.. but it bogs the damned system down so much that it's now a giant antivirus scanning machine, and that's about it....

Re:Perhaps. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#34721602)

You mean installing Norton Antivirus AND McAfee Antivirus at the same time......

Re:Perhaps. (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#34721566)

Or, if the ACLU's accepted fetish about "profiling" was reasonably moderated, we could be much more efficient in focusing the security resources on travelers between the US and countries with significant Jihadist infestations (or passengers from those countries traveling within the US). Just being effiicient...

Re:Perhaps. (1)

zippthorne (748122) | more than 2 years ago | (#34721376)

But what will you spend for that extra .0001?

And will you support a campaign to reduce road deaths by a factor of 99% by setting the national speed limit to 3mph? We could 30,000 lives per year!

Re:Perhaps. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#34721412)

I have absolutely NOTHING to hide, so I don't mind one bit.

So what are ally your passwords, real name, address of residence, bank account number(s), Social Security number, and all other personal details? Oh wait you were talking about the TSA, then prove you are not in any way related to a terrorist (including six degrees of separation)

Re:Perhaps. (1)

CrimsonAvenger (580665) | more than 2 years ago | (#34721460)

I have absolutely NOTHING to hide, so I don't mind one bit.

Then I'm sure you won't mind posting your credit card numbers and banking details...

Re:Perhaps. (5, Informative)

protektor (63514) | more than 2 years ago | (#34721618)

Actually shortly you won't have an option to avoid the TSA. No going by car won't help because they have bought vans with the full body scanners in them so they can scan cars & people without anyone knowing. You can't take a train, the TSA is already there. You won't be able to take a bus, because the TSA is already expanding to bus stations. The TSA has said they are going to be moving in to ports and such. So soon, you won't be able to even take a boat without running into the TSA. The TSA has starting putting a few people at the boarders as well, they have reported. The TSA just recently announced they want to have a presence at sporting events, and possibly even malls along with monitoring churches. The TSA has also said they will be moving in to the subway systems in cities to make sure they are protected.

So how exactly was it you suggest we avoid the TSA? It is or soon will be impossible to avoid them if you travel anywhere in the US. If they get their wish you won't even be able to avoid them even in your home town. It is probably more an issue of time, rather than if this stuff happens. Soon you can get the experience TSA experience everyday depending on where you go and how you get to work.

The TSA has not stopped one terrorist since they were created. You know who has stopped every terrorist? The passengers on the airplanes. So it it passengers - 2, TSA - 0. Seem to me like the passengers are doing far more to protect the public than the TSA. Maybe we need to do something to make it easier for passengers to deal with terrorists when they find them since they are doing a better job than the TSA. Spend money where it works, not on failed systems and failed government departments. Some have suggested letting every passenger carry a fire arm. While this is a funny suggestion, it might actually work better than the TSA. It does make a sort of perverse sort of sense, after all how many people could a terrorist shoot before everyone else on the plane shoots him dead. I don't think that is the best idea out there though. It is kind of funny to think about though.

There aren't just bad seeds in the TSA. The problem is systemic with the TSA. They have had serious problems listed in their last 3 yearly GAO reports. That is just the 3 I looked at and I didn't go further back. Problems of poor training still, problems of not following the advice of the "red teams" to help improve their security still. They are still failing "red team" test by huge percentages with some airports still having 100% failures still. They aren't following DHS policies like they are suppose to do. They have irregularities in their accounting and can't explain where some money went, and can't explain how much money they spent on other things. There is also the most recent report that questions their spending on new technology and issues of so much technology abandoned sitting in warehouses. The issue is the TSA isn't investigating and properly testing new technologies before they are purchased to see if they even work, let alone help security.

Every few days there is a report of how TSA staff didn't even follow their own rules and harassed a member of the public, or how they assaulted someone. The reports just keep piling up. This indicates a basic fundamental problem with the TSA. Normally you would suggest retraining to correct these type of problems, but we can't even do that since their training programs are a failure and not being done right according to the GAO.

Clearly the TSA is a failure and needs to disbanded. It was a nice idea that we tried but it is a utter and complete failure, and we shouldn't throw good money after bad with the TSA.

Re:Perhaps. (2)

dhasenan (758719) | more than 2 years ago | (#34721724)

What is the principle by which you made this decision? Is it a desire to see as few deaths as possible? Then you should be focusing your efforts on heart disease. That accounts for a third of all deaths in the US! (831,000 or 34.3% in 2006, according to the American Heart Association.) It's about as bad as a WTC event every second day (and every Sunday).

Perhaps it's only "unnatural" deaths? Then you should be campaigning to forbid automobiles, since automobile accidents account for some 30,000 deaths in the US annually ( http://www-fars.nhtsa.dot.gov/Main/index.html [dot.gov] ). Instead, you suggest using an automobile.

Perhaps it's only deaths with a culpable party? Then let's restrict ourselves to automobile accidents involving drunk driving. That accounts for about 10,000 deaths in the US annually ( http://www-fars.nhtms.dot.gov/Crashes/CrashesAlcohol.aspx [dot.gov] ). That's a WTC event every five months.

Perhaps you're upset by intentional murder alone? The going rate in the US is 17,000 per year ( http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2010/tables/10s0295.pdf [census.gov] ). Terrorism rates for the past ten years have been less than ten annually except in 2001.

If you're restricting yourself any further than this, I doubt the utility of your principle.

You're not necessarily inconsistent here, just inefficient.

Re:Perhaps. (1)

memnock (466995) | more than 2 years ago | (#34721230)

is it that difficult? most people seem to not care about their privacy or spreading details about themselves all over the web or in shopping (when cashiers ask for phone numbers or when they sign up to be contests). given the amount of data mining that exists by retailers already, the feds accumulating that info would probably be trivial.

Tech helps a lot (1)

Toe, The (545098) | more than 2 years ago | (#34721270)

There is also vast help from our friend technology.

As just a singular example of a technology, look at this article [comners.com] from four years ago, which is about a commercial facial recognition application which can scan 100,000 faces per second. I haven't been following this tech, but... damn.

Again, that's commercial, 4-year-old technology. Extrapolating that sort of capability outward, it is easy to imagine that a small team of humans can oversee the processing of absolutely tremendous amounts of information about individuals.

(My head is bare, but gee... a little tin foil might feel nice up there. ;)

Re:Perhaps. (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#34721274)

At least Paris Hilton will never be on a list of possible underwear bombers.

Re:Perhaps. (1)

Jah-Wren Ryel (80510) | more than 2 years ago | (#34721278)

Don't be ego-centric, realize this likely doesn't apply to you, and you will in no way shape or form be effected by this.

Pastor Martin Niemöller would disagree.

Re:Perhaps. (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#34721292)

Don't be ego-centric, realize this likely doesn't apply to you, and you will in no way shape or form be effected by this.

So you're saying that we shouldn't care unless something affects us directly? That's ridiculous. It's like saying that only the people inside Guantanamo should have been concerned about what went on there. I'm not a US citizen but if you are then this is your government: it represents you to the world, its actions are a reflection on the population which elected it/let this pass and like it or not it controls a lot of things in your life. You're putting an enormous amount of faith in fallible human beings if you say "this doesn't affect me directly, so I'll let the government officials do what they like". Sooner or later something that does affect you will come around and by your reasoning nobody else should care.

The phrase "Then they came for me and by that time no one was left to speak up" springs to mind.

Re:Perhaps. (4, Insightful)

AliasMarlowe (1042386) | more than 2 years ago | (#34721302)

I really doubt our civil liberties are at stake.

Really? One tip-off (potentially anonymous or vindictive or malevolent) gets you on a watch list, and you're unconcerned. The management of the no-fly list does not inspire much confidence in how this watch list will be maintained.

Just have a name which is sort-of similar to a suspected baddie, and you can be stuck on the no-fly list. The late Senator Edward Kennedy and Congressman John Lewis were stuck on it for years: the bureaucracy could not remove even them in a timely way. News reporters have been placed on the list suspiciously soon after publicizing shortcomings at TSA. http://articles.cnn.com/2008-07-17/us/watchlist.chertoff_1_air-marshals-chertoff-federal-no-fly-list?_s=PM:US [cnn.com]

Re:Perhaps. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#34721700)

Really? One tip-off (potentially anonymous or vindictive or malevolent) gets you on a watch list, and you're unconcerned. The management of the no-fly list does not inspire much confidence in how this watch list will be maintained.

That is nothing new. One tip-off from a lady and you'll be on the sex offenders list. With no investigation, and no conviction. If a woman says you are a rapist, you ARE a rapist. At least that is what the police here think.

If this sounds insane, look here, it is run by two laywers: falserapesociety.blogspot.com

Re:Perhaps. (5, Insightful)

commodore64_love (1445365) | more than 2 years ago | (#34721386)

It does effect me if my name pops-up on a watch list, and I have to undergo an hour long interrogation or penis-fondling by the airport SSA.... ooops I mean TSA.

>>>you will in no way shape or form be effected by this

Riiiiight. Here's what a German pastor said after he was released from a Nazi jail cell: "It was the year 1933, and the people who were put in the camps then were Communists. Who cared about them? ..... Then they got rid of the sick, the so-called incurables. - I remember a conversation I had with a person who claimed to be a Christian. He said: 'Perhaps it's right, these incurably sick people just cost the state money, they are just a burden to themselves and to others.' ..... The persecution of the Jews, the way we treated the occupied countries, or the things in Greece, in Poland, in Czechoslovakia or in Holland, that were written about in the newspapers.

"I ask myself again and again, what would have happened if, in the year 1933 or 1934 - all Protestant communities in Germany had defended the truth until their deaths? If we had said back then, it is not right when Hermann Göring simply puts 100,000 Communists in the concentration camps, in order to let them die. I can imagine that perhaps Protestant Christians would have had their heads cut off, but I can also imagine that we would have rescued 10 million people, because that is what it is costing us now."

Or if you prefer Star Trek:
"With the first speech censured, the first freedom denied, the first link in the chain is Forged that will bind us all irrevocably."

Re:Perhaps. (4, Insightful)

PopeRatzo (965947) | more than 2 years ago | (#34721416)

So I assume you've sent your contribution to the ACLU, right?

Right??

Re:Perhaps. (1, Insightful)

commodore64_love (1445365) | more than 2 years ago | (#34721422)

Perhaps. (Score:-1, Troll)
by puterg33k (1920022)

Ahhh com'on guys. Even though I completely disagree with his post, that doesn't make him a "troll" or "ass". He's just sharing his opinion. He didn't deserve the negative karma hit nor the insult. Can't we all just..... get along?

Re:Perhaps. (1)

mangu (126918) | more than 2 years ago | (#34721492)

I would think it would take a great amount of effort and persons to keep track of someone.

To keep track of someone at all times, yes. But they don't need to keep track of him at all times to completely fuck up his life.

For me, being included in the "no fly" list would be much worse than having someone following me everywhere. My life is an open book, I have no secrets to hide, but I do need to take a plane from time to time.

Re:Perhaps. (2)

Nevo (690791) | more than 2 years ago | (#34721612)

So I report you to DHS as a terrorist. No evidence to support my claim, just an anonymous tip. For the rest of your life, you're subjected to additional screening and harassment every time you fly. You have no recourse to clear your name. You have no idea how your name got on the watch list. For the rest of your life you learn to show up at the airport an hour earlier than everyone else does and see everyone in the security line looking at you, getting your extra pat-down, wondering, "I wonder that that guy did." And your civil liberties are not at stake?

Bill Gates! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#34721182)

Bill Gates must be added to the list for his involvement in the entire history of Windows!

..making it difficult for them to travel... (1)

mob)barley (1377683) | more than 2 years ago | (#34721188)

'They are secret lists with no way for people to petition to get off or even to know if they're on,' So difficult to travel...no idea why! The flight vendors don't return my phone calls and it's like it takes me 10x the normal time when I'm driving in the airport's general direction...

I think there was a line in a Burt Lancaster film (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#34721226)

Something about once you get on a secret list, that's it for your career...

What fun one could have... (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#34721228)

Yes, there is a suspicious fellow hanging around Pennsylvania avenue, claims he is the president...he's met with some 535 co-conspirators in an effort to overthrow the government. Let me give you all their names....

Excelent (5, Insightful)

MartinSchou (1360093) | more than 2 years ago | (#34721234)

Seriously - this is an excellent thing.

The ridiculousness of the watch list will never be fixed, as long as it's only a small fraction of people who are inconvenienced.

I'm waiting for the day someone gets a hold of every airline's list of frequent fliers with more than 300 miles/month and gets them added to the list. When that happens, the airlines are going to go apeshit, the entire industry collapse and the economy take a massive hit. And then we'll know if it's there as actual security or just a show to make people feel safer.

Re:Excelent (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#34721256)

And the FBI will find this "someone" and ship him to Guantanamo.

Re:Excellent (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#34721340)

Yes, I like this very much.

We need the following stuff:

  • A guide on how ways on how to 'warn' the authorities/FBI about someone
  • A (long) list of victims (frequent fliers, friends and family of political representatives)
  • Publish both on WikiLeaks for volunteers to provide a 'warning' about a 'victim'

If a single volunteer provides a single hint/warning, then he is quite safe from prosecution. We just need a bug bunch of volunteers.

Re:Excellent (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#34721400)

Sound like a plan. Put all this on a picture, add some Guy Fawkes mask and spam it on 4chan.

Re:Excelent (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#34721586)

I'm confused, what does this have to do with airlines? The guy's an underwater bomber.

Fuck Obama's USA (-1)

blind biker (1066130) | more than 2 years ago | (#34721236)

Dubya's was bad enough, but I got through airport security without TOO much hassle (no pat-downs). What is this, now, this bullshit security theater, scanners, pat-downs, wiretaps, withed govt. documents, Wikileaks witch-hunt, indiscriminate no-fly lists...

I'm not going to conferences to the US while your smiling dictator is in office. Sod it.

Re:Fuck Obama's USA (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#34721374)

Right. 'Cause Obama instituted all of that, not the DHS - which was created by...

It must be great to have such a short memory.

Re:Fuck Obama's USA (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#34721508)

Just goes to show that the US Federal bureaucracy is an un-tameable beast that no administration can manage. Shame on Bush for starting it, shame on Obama for letting it grow.

Re:Fuck Obama's USA (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#34721548)

Right. 'Cause Obama instituted all of that, not the DHS - which was created by...

It must be great to have such a short memory.

That may be, but the head of DHS is an Obama appointee. Changes instituted at DHS since that time fall to Obama. Honestly, the 'Blame Bush' thing is getting tired now that we're two years in. I'm no Bush fan, but this particular thing isn't his fault.

Re:Fuck Obama's USA (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#34721488)

Stop trying to blame it on Obama you troll. Once a agency is created it can only gain more powers. Laws are easy to make but not easy to remove. You should have join the so called "bush basher" when it was time to protest instead of supporting your republican puppet. You should be mad that you was worng, but you prefere to continue living in denial; blaming the other party again. It no wonder things never change. It because of peoples like you, that the USA is going down the toilet.

Re:Fuck Obama's USA (1)

PopeRatzo (965947) | more than 2 years ago | (#34721644)

I'm not going to conferences to the US while your smiling dictator is in office.

As an American, I hereby invite you not to come here, ever again, until you get a better grasp of U.S. civics, history and politics.

Maybe you should be a little more concerned about the personal liberties in your own home country, son. When it comes to Big Brother, you're way ahead of us.

Cmdr Tack is a Terrorista GO GET HIM GIRLSSSSS (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#34721266)

Girls love bad guys.

Glenn Beck (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#34721272)

I've heard rumours that he was involved in funding for Al Quaeda back in the 90's. Not saying that he did of course, but it's interesting that he hasn't denied it so far.

Re:Glenn Beck (1)

JustOK (667959) | more than 2 years ago | (#34721406)

I heard it was for fondling baby terrorists

Re:Glenn Beck (1)

commodore64_love (1445365) | more than 2 years ago | (#34721476)

>>>I heard it was for fondling baby terrorists

I heard Glenn was fondling Rachel Maddow, trying to convince her to become his Second Mormon wife. Now THERE'S a crime against humanity. (And neither of them have denied it to be true.) Okay this is becoming ridiculous.

Re:Glenn Beck (1)

oldspewey (1303305) | more than 2 years ago | (#34721554)

Mr. Beck, when did you stop fondling baby terrorists?

Re:Glenn Beck (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#34721458)

You don't need to make things up about Beck to get him on the list. There are plenty of clips of hip advocating revolution against the government on YouTube.

Barack Obama (1)

master_kaos (1027308) | more than 2 years ago | (#34721282)

I think I saw some electronic device in his coat pocket!!!! Let's see how long that would last

Liberty and safety (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#34721288)

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."

Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790)

Re:Liberty and safety (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#34721418)

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."

Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790)

Yep.

My fellow Americans take their Liberty for granted - actually, I don't think they even know wtf Liberty really is. They think sending some poor kid overseas and invading some Arab country for reasons pulled out of our leaders' asses is protecting their "Freedom".

As long as my fellow Americans have their cheap gasoline, big screen TVs, cable, low taxes and plenty of food for their obese bellies, they're free enough. My fellow countrymen disgust me: they're ignorant and like it that way.

America is dead. Our decline is just the corpse rotting.

Re:Liberty and safety (1)

JustOK (667959) | more than 2 years ago | (#34721428)

those that give up essential liberty to obtain a little ball rubbing activity deserve neither.

Re:Liberty and safety (4, Interesting)

commodore64_love (1445365) | more than 2 years ago | (#34721526)

I had a facebook "friend" and former classmate tell me I am overreacting and the TSA breat/penis-fondling is no big deal. So I copied that Ben Franklin quote *from the friends page* as my response.

His reply: "Flying is not an essential liberty." Then he unfriended me. (sigh) The 9th and 10th amendments, plus more court cases than I can list here, assert that these ARE essential liberties. How can people be so dumb that they think the right to travel (including by plane) should not be protected? Or that getting felt-up by police at the port is okay?

I could understand such things if you are crossing an international border, but not if you're flying from St. Louis to New York or some other local flight. About a year ago a Ron Paul employee was stopped by the TSA and interrogated for an hour. His crime: He had 3000 dollars in cash in a lockbox. They were donations from Paul's supporters, but the TSA wanted to drag him off to the Drug Enforcement Agency to be charged for suspected smuggling.

It's complete and utter bullshit.

Re:Liberty and safety (1)

PopeRatzo (965947) | more than 2 years ago | (#34721652)

"Ben Franklin's a fat old douchebag."

Thomas Jefferson (1743-1826)

Did this happen in the USSR and nazi germany? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#34721310)

Did this happen in the USSR and nazi Germany?

Re:Did this happen in the USSR and nazi germany? (1)

arkane1234 (457605) | more than 2 years ago | (#34721550)

Probably... then again, so did freeway construction.

Re:Did this happen in the USSR and nazi germany? (1)

AHuxley (892839) | more than 2 years ago | (#34721634)

USSR was very random. If they needed a few thousand to make up a death quota for an area, it was done.
Germany had the help of IBM tech to sort the population. Germany also had a very good system of letter writing from people who disliked/wanted your job ect.
What the USA is rolling out is fusion centres with the NSA as part of your telco network.
http://cryptome.org/eyeball/nsa-grsoc/nsa-grsoc.htm [cryptome.org]
If you fly and phone home, your fair game. Use a set of words ...
The US is also rolling out ""If You See Something, Say Something"" to suburbia, so really its back to random again
http://www.dhs.gov/ynews/releases/pr_1291648380371.shtm [dhs.gov]
So you have the Germany tech feel with Soviet like employees to keep an eye on you. Where the fed van will stop next ..

The Republic (4, Insightful)

hackus (159037) | more than 2 years ago | (#34721354)

Is doomed.

The USA is now a police state. In the next 10 years history is going to repeat itself and it will ultimately lead to WWIII.

Life is going to get increasingly harsher here, it is already _very_ harsh for many children more than a quarter of which do not have enough food to eat on a daily basis.

The TSA is now the "Brown Shirts" equivalent legally of the NAZI police. They have ultimate authority over the law of the land and can and do on a daily basis exercise that authority in our Airports.

From there it will eventually lead to a knock on your door and a pleasant man entering your residence asking why you are on his "list"....

at 3AM in the morning.

Meanwhile nobody here is doing jack squat about anything.

We already see that the Bank of America and other banks are simply extended branches of the US government along with other large businesses such as Amazon, which should not have any involvement _AT ALL_ as commercial institutions with Wikileaks. (i.e. shutting down accounts).

This cooperation on such a large scale in the US right now between government and large mega businesses compose a fascist state which is being constructed by a few power brokers at the Federal Reserve for complete control of government.

With the TSA, they now have an enforcement arm to build off of that is above the law.

Compare that with the "brown shirts" use by Hitler during the early 1930's to enlist primarily unemployed people who couldn't find a job to do his "dirty work" in eliminating the communist threat or any dissident obstacles to his power.

The horrific implications here though, is to use the TSA to create a list of anyone who points out that the TSA is clearly a criminal run operation and is not constitutional .

Right now names just go on lists...

Eventually that list _will_ lead to your front door in the middle of the night and I hope to god you are either out of the country by then like a lot of the intelligent Jewish people who could see the whole thing coming in the early thirties when Hitler was organizing his power structures...

and left Germany before it was too late.

I fully expect this will continue, with no resistance just like it did in Germany.

God help us all.

-Hack

Re:The Republic (2, Insightful)

the linux geek (799780) | more than 2 years ago | (#34721404)

Get a grip. I think that the post-9/11 security measures are bad and unconstitutional, and having had to travel a few days ago the irritation is fresh in my head, but comparing the TSA to the Sturmabteilung in an apparently serious post is just ridiculous.

Re:The Republic (1)

commodore64_love (1445365) | more than 2 years ago | (#34721638)

Is it? "We've got to have a civilian national security force that's just as powerful, just as strong, just as well-funded as the military." - our current president (Dem or Rep/it makes no difference).

As for the tone of the post, it does seem Alex Jones like. There's a kernal of truth wrapped with overzealousness.

Re:The Republic (0)

DigiTechGuy (1747636) | more than 2 years ago | (#34721632)

Agreed, this is exactly what it is. This country has become a fascist police state. I don't think it'll lead to "genocide" of those on the lists, but it does get worse every year and it wouldn't surprise me if people start disappearing. You have no rights anymore, I wish our communist government would just openly disregard the Constitution, perhaps our president could burn it at the next "beer summit". That'll never happen though, as then all the fools who are too blind to see what is happening might wake up and smell the coffee.

Re:The Republic (1)

PopeRatzo (965947) | more than 2 years ago | (#34721708)

You know, you're right. I flew the week before Christmas, and was thinking, "Having to go through this security is exactly like Jews getting exterminated in concentration camps. Exactly. Gee, if you just put shiny boots on these TSA monsters, it would be precisely similar to the Warsaw Ghetto." Yes, that's what I thought. Also, I thought, "Sitting next to this fat lady in these cramped seats and having to eat these dry Oreo Bits is just like having medical experiments performed on me by Dr Mengele at Auschwitz."

Happy New Year to you, too.

Re:The Republic (3, Interesting)

suv4x4 (956391) | more than 2 years ago | (#34721712)

Things are grim in terms of economy and human rights in USA, I'd agree thus far, but I wouldn't worry about WWIII. USA even had to stop dead in its plans to attack Iran due to waning economy and internal political issues.

The word is out: getting rid of the US dollar as the backup currency has become a priority for every bigger nation/union in the world.

The process has started, with the Middle East working on moving towards the Euro, and China/Russia recently opening a new exchange market in their own currencies (to replace the USD they use now) and the rest are to follow soon.

Without this backup, the dollar will quickly devalue, USA will not have the ability anymore to loan resources for its empire ambitions, even if Hitler himself was revived and elected for the next president.

Re:The Republic (1)

operagost (62405) | more than 2 years ago | (#34721722)

Well, he said that in the interest of national security he wanted to build a civilian force as large and well-funded as the military. He didn't actually say it would be brownshirts, but since he never elaborated I don't know what to think.

Witches (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#34721358)

I smell another "witch trials", minus all the attention...and the trials.

DDOS it (1)

roman_mir (125474) | more than 2 years ago | (#34721368)

Well, this just makes it possible to DDOS the entire thing. What, there are over 300 million people in USA, right? So how hard is it to build a script to just iterate over all those people and submit tips on all of them?

Do it in a distributed way and once everybody is on the list only the people who are not on it will look suspicious.

Re:DDOS it (1)

Bobakitoo (1814374) | more than 2 years ago | (#34721552)

Subtract from that all the "americain" sounding names. To be on that list you need a weird foreign name that is hard to pronounce. You know.. something that sound like a terrorist name should. To determine who is on, this is as sophisticated as it get. After a while they will filter name right at the form and add you on the questioning list.

Enemies of the State (3, Interesting)

tekrat (242117) | more than 2 years ago | (#34721370)

So now all citizens are enemies of the state? And with a "tip list" that is so easily game-able, why don't we all just submit the names of everyone who works for FOX NEWS?

I'd love to hear about Glenn Beck not being able to fly, or Sarah Palin strip-searched and groped at the airport. Now that might make FOX reverse some of their propaganda. If anything, when it comes to security theater, that's actually one of the very few things Glenn Beck and I agree on.

But since FOX yells louder than any other "news" agency (nobody watches msnbc, CNN is useless), they are a great target for this. I say make FOX an enemy of the state, and let them see how their "post 9-11 world" that they yap about so much has become an insane police-state.

They after all, are the only group to create their own grass-root support, as FOX essentially created the "Tea Party", so, only they can create enough backlash to have any effect in American politics.

Re:Enemies of the State (4, Informative)

suv4x4 (956391) | more than 2 years ago | (#34721628)

I'd love to hear about Glenn Beck not being able to fly, or Sarah Palin strip-searched and groped at the airport. Now that might make FOX reverse some of their propaganda. If anything, when it comes to security theater, that's actually one of the very few things Glenn Beck and I agree on.

Don't get your hopes up.

The X-ray scans and groping procedures are applicable for the "small people" only.

I wish I was kidding, but if you are a government official or rich enough to have your own security people travel with you, you get an officially sanctioned bypass. It's literally in the rules.

At most what would happen if you try to troll the TSA by adding popular people on the lists is to get unwanted attention to your own persona.

The reason you can't play the system against itself is that, after all, the people on top work hard every day on changing the system to play you. They have the capability, head start and experience to make sure you follow the rules and don't yap or object too much, like all small people should.

Re:Enemies of the State (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#34721728)

literally? Honest question.

Re:Enemies of the State (3, Informative)

commodore64_love (1445365) | more than 2 years ago | (#34721678)

>>>I'd love to hear about Glenn Beck not being able to fly, or Sarah Palin strip-searched and groped at the airport. Now that might make FOX reverse some of their propaganda.

You don't watch FOX at all, do you?
Almost all the hosts are against TSA gropings.

>>>as FOX essentially created the "Tea Party"

And more misinformation. The Ron Paul for President campaign created the tea party in late 2007. They had multiple rallies and then it just keep growing, even after Ron Paul stepped back from it. I had joined Ron's tea party loooong before FOX ever talked about it.

Re:Enemies of the State (1)

operagost (62405) | more than 2 years ago | (#34721738)

Why are we targeting Fox News again? For the lulz? Because I don't think any of the talking heads at Fox News supports this kind of security theater-- and you even admitted that in the case of Beck. Also, everyone claims here that Fox is full of conservative ideologues who hate Obama because he's (half) black, so why would they support any of the administration's policies? Your post simply makes no sense.

SURE FIX !! VOTE PALIN IN '12 !! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#34721382)

Then pass legislation making it legal to smoke, possess, grow, and sell pot (subject to taxation), and that will FOR SURE fix things right up !!

I want more Dick !! Cheney way of doing things around here !!

Incompetence is never good for the people (4, Interesting)

dachshund (300733) | more than 2 years ago | (#34721420)

Let's make government incompetent --- then it will inevitably shrink down and we'll be free of it. Oh wait, hmm, doesn't work.

Not necessarily a comment on what happened in this story, just a warning to anyone who believes in the above proposition. If you hate big government, then you're definitely not going to like incompetent, underpaid, under-resourced big government. The solution is to make government work better, never the opposite.

Re:Incompetence is never good for the people (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#34721494)

There are two "good end" options and one "bad end" option.

Destroy the Government.
Remove lifetime politicians and replace with younger.
Breed idiots and make them politicians. -- Currently selected

Re:Incompetence is never good for the people (2, Interesting)

commodore64_love (1445365) | more than 2 years ago | (#34721726)

>>>The solution is to make government work better

No the solution is to have massive layoffs. I worked for the FAA and 75% of the staff just sat surfing the net all day. Plus closures of departments that don't really need to exist like the Dept of Education - not only is this an unconstitutional creation (Congress was never granted power to educate) but it is also better handled locally by the State Governments, since they are closer to the voice of the people. (My state rep lives right in my neighborhood; it doesn't get any more directly democratic than that.)

The solution is to downsize government the same way corporations downsize - in order to create a better more efficient organization. Layoffs of non-working workers and closures of departments that are (a) redundant or (b) not necessary.

The Inquisition Lives! (2)

SiaFhir (686401) | more than 2 years ago | (#34721528)

'as long as it is deemed credible'
"Are you sure?"
"Yep."
"Okay, then. We'll put " . $name . " on the list."

In the Inquisition, one can be arrested and brought to trial on a single accusation. History is now repeating itself.

Re:The Inquisition Lives! (1)

KibibyteBrain (1455987) | more than 2 years ago | (#34721660)

No, what made the witch trials unique was one could be CONVICTED on a single accusation. We aren't quite there yet...you can however be detained indefinitely on a single accusation...

Changing Places (1)

harvey the nerd (582806) | more than 2 years ago | (#34721562)

Changing Places, the movie in real life. It's amazing, the things we used to gasp or laugh about in USSR and third world sh-- holes, are expected to be taken for granted by our new Oberfuhrers. Even in the worst countries, with actual Maoist or Marxist wars going, no stooge ever made a grab for my privates.

Today, many of the former "third world" cities are choked with new, expensive Toyotas bigger than a Suburban, while the US has a bunch of econo boxes. The US is going to hell under a fascist-commie government. Time to leave, if you can. We're 80% out.

Witchhunt (1)

happyfeet2000 (1208074) | more than 2 years ago | (#34721642)

Congratulations, youre back at the medioeval witchhunt/inquisition paranoid lifestyle when a single anonymous tip was enough to ruin your enemies and claim their property.

My brother is on the list... (5, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#34721672)

I did the anonymous coward as it's probably better for this post than others, but needless to say my family is of Pakistani origin, and about two years ago my brother was accused of being a terrorist.

Of course, the guy that pointed the finger at him was about to go to jail himself because he beat his girlfriend over the head with a baseball bat, so he said he knew the whereabouts of a terrorist. My brother was Muslim, he knew that, and that's all it took. The charges were bunk of course, and the guy was stupid enough to email my brother saying "Yea well I'll tell everybody you're a terrorist!", which he showed to the FBI agents that showed up at our house. They were satisfied with that, thanked us for our time, and said that we don't have to worry about it again.

Fast forward to the next year when my brother goes overseas (not the Middle East) to get some research done for his thesis -- he comes back and I went to pick him up from the airport, and was waiting there for FOUR HOURS. The TSA and whomever else inside were questioning him for hours. He's on their watch list because some douchebag that beat up his girlfriend thought he'd get a lesser sentence by ratting out some Muslim guy.

Either way, it's a sad state of affairs nowadays, even a trip over the border he is detained for hours at a time. He has gotten used to it since he can't do anything about it, and showing resistance basically implies you're guilty of something. So he takes it. But the unfortunate thing is that he's far from the only one, and I imagine that lots of people are affected by this, and it's sad. What more, even if you share a name with a would-be terrorist (do you know how many Omars there are out there?) then you get screwed too. Our intelligence services are atrocious, our airport security worse, and our lack of civil liberties eroding quickly. And while right now it's only Muslims that are getting screwed, it's not too far to think it won't be gun owners, or political opponents, or anything else. It's just sick to me, and upsetting since I was born and raised in the US, just like my brother.

Red Scare III, Revenge of the Towelheads (0)

Jayemji (1054886) | more than 2 years ago | (#34721692)

The commies are back, but now they follow Islam and use small group tactics!

Nominate your elected officials (3, Interesting)

kenh (9056) | more than 2 years ago | (#34721694)

I propose that people nominate their elected officials for inclusion on the terrorist watch list. Once a few politicians have to deal with this list they will see their way clear to impose more reasonable standards for inclusion...

I can think of 535 members of congress I'd like to add to the list, but what might be even more meaningful would be if their chiefs of staff were put on the list (they might be under the TSA radar and actually get added to the list, whereas a Senator or Congressman's name might be identified and flagged before making the list).

I tend to not support such acts, but in this case I'll make an exception... The issue here is the near-impossibility of ever getting off the list once on it.

Gun Sales (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#34721710)

Is this the very same list that anti-gun folks were SHOCKED to learn we weren't using to deny people the right to own guns?

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