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French Minister Sells Surveillance Legislation With Fake Benefits

samzenpus posted more than 3 years ago | from the it-slices-it-dices dept.

Government 51

Dangerous_Minds writes "The debate over LOPPSI 2, the legislation that would allow police to upload malware including Trojan Horses and key loggers to unwitting users without a court order, is heating up in France. Interior minister Brice Hortefeux told the media that LOPPSI 2 would stop the theft of smart phones because vendors would then be able to discontinue use of on-board SIM cards. Critics are pointing out that the theft of stolen portable phones is not covered under LOPPSI 2 in its current form. Others also point out that the discontinued use of SIM cards on stolen phones is already possible in France without the legislation. It's unclear if this is just a case of the minister not knowing what is actually in the legislation he is trying to pass."

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51 comments

Rudakrus (0)

oldhack (1037484) | more than 3 years ago | (#34773932)

That's inconceivable.

I have no idea what the fuck this is about.

duh (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34779928)

That's inconceivable.

I don't think that word mean what you think it mean.

Re:Rudakrus (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34788684)

For having met those guys face to face a couple of years ago, I can tell you that this law (allowing police to upload malware including Trojan Horses and key loggers on any user's machine without a court order) is here merely to make existing practices become official rather than clandestine.

When the volume of clandestine (unlawful) visits reaches some levels, it is statistically unlikley that it will stay clandestine. Therefore, they need a way to make it legal.

Do politicians ever understand (2)

Ismellpoop (1949100) | more than 3 years ago | (#34773934)

legislation they push?
Or are the police possibly some other special interest groups pushing it?
Politicians are yes men plain and simple.

Re:Do politicians ever understand (2)

bersl2 (689221) | more than 3 years ago | (#34773966)

They're mostly authoritarians too, just like political executives. I'm sure he knows exactly what he's doing.

Re:Do politicians ever understand (3, Insightful)

Kilrah_il (1692978) | more than 3 years ago | (#34773988)

Actually, it's quite sad that the option that the politician does not know what he is trying to pass is concievable. You would think that a professional would be well versed in the material he is working on. In the case of politicians (which are supposed to be our professional law-makers), we assume he does not have more than a passing aquaintance with the laws he is proposing. And the alternative is that he is blanatly lying. Amazing!
Well, I must be new here... :)

Re:Do politicians ever understand (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34779486)

Yeah, it's obviously both.

Re:Do politicians ever understand (2)

arivanov (12034) | more than 3 years ago | (#34774522)

The problem is not so much with politicians. It is not the job of the politicos to be technically literate in every area of the human knowledge.

The problem is mostly with people who advise them. These are the actual technically illiterate "yes men" in this and many other cases.

French minister Brice Hortefeux just lies (5, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34773996)

Brice Hortefeux is well known for not knowing what he is talking about and lying about facts on a daily basis.
Note that he has been judged and condemned twice in the recent months (racism and presumption of innocence) so his lack of moral is not only notorious, it is also official.

I miss the old country... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34774048)

Brice Hortefeux is well known for not knowing what he is talking about and lying about facts on a daily basis.

This guy is retarded, but on top of that he lies. One or the other I can stand, but being both retarded a lying is a feat that the USA wasn't been able to accomplish until George W Bush and his successors.

Note that he has been judged and condemned twice in the recent months (racism and presumption of innocence) so his lack of moral is not only notorious, it is also official.

This lying retard has also been condemned twice for racism and slandar.

Bravo, lying idiot - you the only person in the world who is retarded and still somehow capable of slander. I guess racism just comes naturally to the guy too. I'm sure the Tea Party is recruiting this lying idiot as we speak.

Re:I miss the old country... (1)

bat21 (1467681) | more than 3 years ago | (#34778498)

You're right, now instead of retarded and lying we have a president that's brilliant and lies.... Personally, I'll take the retard.

Re:I miss the old country... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34779498)

You're right, now instead of retarded and lying we have a president that's brilliant and lies.... Personally, I'll take the retard.

Umm, where's the actual evidence of Obama's purported brilliance?

Re:French minister Brice Hortefeux just lies (1)

PatPending (953482) | more than 3 years ago | (#34774122)

Brice Hortefeux is well known for not knowing what he is talking about and lying about facts on a daily basis.

Applies to others as well. Here is the link to The Dissident Frogman's take on French news agency AFP.com [thedissidentfrogman.com] . Or go directly to the hysterically funny, good-natured videotaped farce [youtube.com] he performed for the occasion.

In summary:

We can live with a dishonest press -- as long as we know it -- but ignorance from those who pretend to inform us?

Re:French minister Brice Hortefeux just lies (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34774656)

Another part of this law allows the goverment to block any website without any court decision. This law is advertised to be aimed at pedopornographical websites but there are no appeal procedure or plea. (This law will certainly not pass the constitutional court)
Another blocking procedure apply to gambling site which aren't paying taxes in France (but with a trial)
The same government also thougt about DPI to "prevent piracy".
I think their goal is to control much more the Internet.

Re:French minister Brice Hortefeux just lies (2)

daem0n1x (748565) | more than 3 years ago | (#34775364)

Don't you French impeach politicians when they're convicted? Or, at the very least, pressure them to resign?

Re:French minister Brice Hortefeux just lies (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34776070)

No, we just reelect them when their sentence is served.

Re:French minister Brice Hortefeux just lies (2)

horza (87255) | more than 3 years ago | (#34777560)

Hardly. The current Minister for Defence Alain Juppé [wikipedia.org] has been convicted for fraud whilst holding public office 2004. The fact that the French elite is riddled with corruption (Sarkozy, Chirac, Mitterand were all mired in fraud scandals) is why corruption is seen as ok.

Phillip.

Copycats (1)

vuke69 (450194) | more than 3 years ago | (#34774002)

"It's unclear if this is just a case of the minister not knowing what is actually in the legislation he is trying to pass."

Is he trying to copy American legislators?

Allow me to be very clear here... (4, Informative)

Noryungi (70322) | more than 3 years ago | (#34774056)

The current French government has proposed, in the recent past, to track down migrants, both legal and illegal, through genetic testing.

This is a government which was one of the very first to propose a "three strikes and you are out" regulation to "fight" so-called Internet piracy. Even though it was repeatedly told this was an unpopular measure and one that was pretty much unfeasible technically.

This is a governement whose minister in charge of the "three strikes" law actually mentioned that Linux was not concerned by music or movie piracy because it had "high performance firewalls" [sic] such as "Open Office" [!!].

Coming from that government, nothing surprises me anymore. Like many politicians, all you need to know is that they are lying every time they open their mouths and that whatever they say they will do, they probably won't.

french &politics (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34774190)

The truth is French Politics were on the side of Hitler in WWII, not so much much against the jews as much as just admiration for fascism and totalitarian state power structure napoleon( the short)....
as usual lesson givers they want to be the first fascist state on the internet , and as usual they missed the first place taken by china.

Re:french &politics (4, Insightful)

Attila Dimedici (1036002) | more than 3 years ago | (#34775522)

Most politicians around the world admired the fascists before WWII. The majority never really got over it, they just knew that they couldn't admit it after war broke out.

Re:french &politics (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34775754)

yeah! and how 'bout how they always surrender! hahahahahahahaha! and their hairy women! hahahahahaha!

Re:Allow me to be very clear here... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34774330)

mentioned that Linux was not concerned by music or movie piracy because it had "high performance firewalls" [sic] such as "Open Office" [!!].

Got a source for that?

Re:Allow me to be very clear here... (2)

Noryungi (70322) | more than 3 years ago | (#34774450)

Yes, my dear A.C.: just google "morano linux hadopi open office" and enjoy the links.

Of course, it requires a minimum of knowledge of the french language. Once again, Google (Translate) is your friend.

Re:Allow me to be very clear here... (1)

mouf (1849592) | more than 3 years ago | (#34774492)

Well, here in France, the "open-office firewall" is becoming a real meme. And here is the source: http://www.numerama.com/magazine/12508-albanel-le-ministere-de-la-culture-a-comme-pare-feu-open-office-maj.html [numerama.com] You can even see the video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ph6ZeEDnFmc [youtube.com] Both links are in French, but Google Translate will help you :) To be fair, it's been 1 year since this ministry has been replaced, but it is unsure the one in place knows any better about IT.

Re:Allow me to be very clear here... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34774782)

https://www.wzdftpd.net/blog/index.php?post/2010/06/16/46-le-pare-feu-openoffice

The current Culture ministrer (Albanel's replacement; former President's nephew if you wonder why the name seems vaguely familiar) bragged about raping Thai boys in the arse, in a published book. Yeah, he later said it was just fantasies, but he made damn sure it looked like a legit autobiography before the scandal erupted

The OO firewall has actually seen an implementation after Albanel's stupid speech: https://www.wzdftpd.net/blog/index.php?post/2010/06/16/46-le-pare-feu-openoffice -- just laugh at the architecture diagram :)

Meanwhile we get drowned under omnibus rider legislation. I want to see an implementation of Linux kernel's Coccinelle for French legalese! This might help clean up the mess.

Or not; we're a fascist state with no expectation of privacy anymore. Let's all get over it and hand the keys to Zuck's police buddies.

Re:Allow me to be very clear here... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34778682)

Well, you there in France, the next time you have general elections, remember HADOPI and LOPSSI and vote accordingly. People complain and complain but they still vote for same-old, same-old. If you want change, you're going to have to take a chance with something-new (whatever that may be).

Re:Allow me to be very clear here... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34774344)

Heil Frankrike!

Re:hgh performace fire wall (0)

ceCA (675081) | more than 3 years ago | (#34774996)

Yes I agree Linux has high performance firewalls called open office. But it is now called libre Office firewall (cough .... cough) which is even better (cough ... cough ... cough).

Re:Allow me to be very clear here... (1)

jez9999 (618189) | more than 3 years ago | (#34775266)

Why did Nick Clegg cross the road?

Because he said he wouldn't.

Incompetence FTW! (1)

serutan (259622) | more than 3 years ago | (#34774064)

It's unclear if this is just a case of the minister not knowing what is actually in the legislation he is trying to pass.

Silly rabbit! If France is anything like the USA, having to actually read what his corporate sponsors email him before he cuts and pastes it into law would waste valuable schmoozing time.

Re:Incompetence FTW! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34774096)

No, hortefeux is actually a convicted racist and the law he pushes are aimed at the control of Internet, not for corporate power, but mostly to try to ensure a reelection for his boss, sarkozy.

France is turning into a fascist state -- but that is the case for quite a lot of countries, these days...

Re:Incompetence FTW! (1)

OneAhead (1495535) | more than 3 years ago | (#34776220)

I fear you might be on to something. Friends in different places in the world are complaining that politics (and more importantly, public opinion) in the countries they're living in is creeping steadily to the right. Same in my home country and in the country I'm currently living in. Wonder where this will end...

not uncommon (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34774118)

Well, it's not like the current government is known for its bullet-proofs arguments when it comes to defend their texts...
Especially those whose goal is to reinforce the police's powers.

Not that it really matters, the right wing have absolute majority and can pass every last dumb idea they have.

"uploading malware" (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34774178)

This is why I maintain a 100% strict policy that I, and only I, decide what runs on my computer.

It's also a reason why I will never own a computer that I do not own. That means no iPads, no iPhones, no Kindles, and a ton of others.

I take whatever technical steps are necessary for my computer to obey me and only me. Of course, someone with physical access could compromise it, but that means they have to have broken into my house, which isn't feasible on a wide scale. And someone could, in theory, compromise the OSS operating system I use, but it seems unlikely France has done that.

Unfortunately, my policy means more and more cool modern consumer devices are off limits to purchase, because I don't get to own them after purchase.

Re:"uploading malware" (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34774378)

but that means they have to have broken into my house

That's easy to counter:
- full system encryption
- anti-temper seals/stickers to detect installation of hardware keyloggers and the likes
- if you're really concerned, add video surveillance of your computer

Re:"uploading malware" (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34775032)

- anti-temper seals/stickers

anti-tamper ? Or is it that you get a temper when i install key-loggers in your system ? :)

Sometimes... (1)

Rhaban (987410) | more than 3 years ago | (#34774526)

I hate my country.

No incompetence there. (3, Informative)

Mauvaisours (660152) | more than 3 years ago | (#34774566)

This is the same law that creates a blacklist of sites that must be blocked by ISPs, the list being secret, created by the interior minister, no appeal, no review.... And they claim it will stop pedo-pornography. They DO know what they're doing, they're just lying as usual.

Re:No incompetence there. (2)

jimicus (737525) | more than 3 years ago | (#34774718)

They DO know what they're doing, they're just lying as usual

AFAICT, this is SOP for most western governments in the world today.

It wouldn't surprise me if it had been SOP for most of the last couple of centuries, only now with things like the Internet it's becoming rather easier to spot.

Re:No incompetence there. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34775458)

And just how long do you think that list will *remain* secret, given as every mom'n'pop ISP has to have access to the list?

AC

Bad summary (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34774638)

The summary is incorrect: installing a key logger and/or a piece of software to access the contents of the screen of the user REQUIRES A COURT ORDER in the LOPPSI 2 and can only be done for a limited amount of time set in the law.

Please don't exaggerate things for the purpose of sensationalism. There are other points about this law that deserve constructive criticism not FUD.

Re:Bad summary (2)

uncle slacky (1125953) | more than 3 years ago | (#34774748)

What's the betting that the keylogger and screengrabber only work in Windows anyway?

Of course, if you run Linux you'll be automatically assumed to be a terrorist...

Re:Bad summary (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34775086)

What's the betting that the keylogger and screengrabber only work in Windows anyway?

Of course, if you run Linux you'll be automatically assumed to be a terrorist...

I think you underestimate the amount of resources that a national governement has at it's disposal. Especially one that manages the 5th largest economy of the world.

Frist psoTy? (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34774816)

though I h4ve never everyDay...Redefine

Or maybe like a shady used car salesman... (1)

Drakkenmensch (1255800) | more than 3 years ago | (#34775162)

... the minister knowing exactly what he's trying to sell and hoping nobody will notice?

He has a Nigerian Cousin... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34775462)

...that keeps emailing me about the money bla bla bla bla bla and oh yeah sir, mighty fine looking bird sir, nice plumage, sir!
They can be seen in action here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=juLHmMRgjzM

i feel safe (1)

nopainogain (1091795) | more than 3 years ago | (#34775580)

the cops around here, noble guys as they may be. cannot differentiate their mouse and keyboard. They paid for half my beer money when I was in college by downloading every type of crap imaginable and hiring me to repair/remove it.

How likely is this to become law, exactly? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34780788)

That some people are totally insane does not surprise me. That a large percentage of the people in the various western governments seem to fit that bill has occured to me more than once.

howeer, regarding this proposal for a law, the interesting question must be: How significant is it? Is it likely to get accepted in parliament or what kind of process is required in France?

IOW: Have the lunatics overtaken the asylum already?

Re:How likely is this to become law, exactly? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34781614)

s/howeer/however ... sorry.

Another interesting issue is that laws tend to be made "after the fact", so the authorities have most likely already aquired necessary skills/tools, practised the use of them, attempted to use some of these techniques, or actually used them irl.

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