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New York Times Reports US and Israel Behind Stuxnet

timothy posted more than 3 years ago | from the alleged-shooter dept.

The Military 406

Oxford_Comma_Lover writes "Confirming heavy speculation in the Slashdot community, the New York Times reports that joint US-Israeli efforts were almost certainly behind the recent Stuxnet attack on Iran's nuclear program." The article stops just short of saying in so many words that Israeli is the doer, but leaves little doubt of its conclusion.

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From the No-**** Department... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34894234)

Did anyone believe otherwise?

Re:From the No-**** Department... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34894248)

For all we know it could be a false-flag attempt at starting something from Iran.

Re:From the No-**** Department... (5, Informative)

jmauro (32523) | more than 3 years ago | (#34894306)

There was some decent evidence that it was actually a Chinese-Finnish operation [forbes.com]

My guess is when it's all declassified in 100 years or so we'll find out it was actually created out of different virus cross breeding and the Internet has been alive this entire time. Yea, I'll be shocked too.

Re:From the No-**** Department... (2)

93 Escort Wagon (326346) | more than 3 years ago | (#34894440)

My guess is when it's all declassified in 100 years or so we'll find out it was actually created out of different virus cross breeding and the Internet has been alive this entire time. Yea, I'll be shocked too.

Yes, it might be pretty shocking to find yourself still alive 100 years from now - but I imagine you'll have had plenty of time to adjust in the meantime.

Still Speculative. (4, Insightful)

Quick Reply (688867) | more than 3 years ago | (#34894246)

They probably "almost certainly" did, but the NYT article is still just speculation. The haven't confirmed anything.

Re:Still Speculative. (1)

mother_reincarnated (1099781) | more than 3 years ago | (#34894284)

Indeed- all they have confirmed is that people think the US and Israel did it...

The only new bit in the article (to me) was that they think Israel successfully managed to set up a bunch of P1 style centrifuges and test the worm...

Re:Still Speculative. (4, Informative)

timeOday (582209) | more than 3 years ago | (#34894612)

Did you actually finish the article?

And the American expert in nuclear intelligence, who spoke on the condition of anonymity, said the Israelis used machines of the P-1 style to test the effectiveness of Stuxnet.

The expert added that Israel worked in collaboration with the United States in targeting Iran, but that Washington was eager for "plausible deniability."

How much more direct could a confirmation be? The only question is the veracity of the anonymous source.

Re:Still Speculative. (1, Insightful)

mother_reincarnated (1099781) | more than 3 years ago | (#34894668)

How much more direct could a confirmation be? The only question is the veracity of the anonymous source.

They haven't gotten anyone who knows to confirm it... only people who are also speculating.

Note that "an American expert in nuclear intelligence" would specifically not be someone who works in the gov't- If they could claim an anonymous official source they would.

Re:Still Speculative. (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34894326)

Exactly this.

The new york times editors "almost certainly" rape little children on weekends.

I guess this only goes to show, as long as it is a slow news day, they have no issues with me reporting that "fact" online for all to see.

Re:Still Speculative. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34894656)

The new york times editors "almost certainly" rape little children on weekends.

I am sure that you are trying to make up a silly example, but how do you know that this is not true.

Re:Still Speculative. (5, Interesting)

epine (68316) | more than 3 years ago | (#34894744)

The haven't confirmed anything.

I think your typing speed and your reading speed are linked together.

The article does a great job of laying out means and motive and avenues of military conspiracy, and furthermore, documents that the means are exceptionally esoteric and that the motives precisely align with recent policy statements on the parts of the alleged conspirators, who I might add have a brazen rap sheet, but who now seem to increasingly fear "three strikes and you're a lout".

Where the article fails hopelessly is explaining what a three year delay actually buys us. What's the leverage point? Is this just a bunch of politicians playing "not on my watch" or will the Risk board change in some interesting way over the short hiatus?

Will the Ahmadinejad faction wane as a result? Will it cause the Iranians a crisis of confidence in foreign technology procurement? This bit the Russians hard after the Siberian pipeline thing. Will the Americans sew things up in Iraq over that time period to enable them to better address the Iran situation when the pot finally boils?

These are the real questions the article fails to address.

Concerning the slow news day knee jerk, I don't understand why the jury convicted Hans Reiser. It was nothing but informed conjecture about an arrogant prick until he cracked post sentencing.

Re:Still Speculative. (3, Insightful)

AHuxley (892839) | more than 3 years ago | (#34894814)

Where the article fails hopelessly is explaining what a three year delay actually buys us.
It buys 3 years of defectors, active targeting of people and locations, export deal mindgames, hardware tracking, 3 more years of US aid, 3 years of stocking up on next generation US weapons. Politically it keeps the vision of 'evil' alive - Iran is building, only a strong unified political structure can do what it needed.
Iran cannot trust MS or the basic EU hardware and will have to spend up big trying to buy parts and build at home.
Iran is now playing the import game and is again wide open to more software issues.

Re:Still Speculative. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34894832)

Exactly! Also remain skeptical of anything David Sanger writes. His journalistic record is sketchy at best.

When this happens to the US or its allies (5, Insightful)

countertrolling (1585477) | more than 3 years ago | (#34894250)

It will considered an act of war resulting in the real thing, of course.

Re:When this happens to the US or its allies (1)

gman003 (1693318) | more than 3 years ago | (#34894276)

It still just might cause a war. Sure, Iran can't fight a war with the US, but it can (and probably will) fight Israel. THAT would be nasty.

Re:When this happens to the US or its allies (1, Troll)

Titan1080 (1328519) | more than 3 years ago | (#34894360)

Uh. The US barely 'won' against a FAR inferior Iraq, and is losing badly against a stone age country. I'm pretty sure Iran would do just fine, especially seeing as how they have control of 100% of the straits of Hormuz.

Re:When this happens to the US or its allies (1)

vbraga (228124) | more than 3 years ago | (#34894416)

The 5fth Fleet is stationed on Bahrain. Why do you believe that Iran controls all of the Strait of Hormuz?

I'm pretty sure the United States would have a lot of trouble fighting another stone age country, because that is what Iran would become if it engages Israel, the US or one if it's allies.

Re:When this happens to the US or its allies (1)

Opportunist (166417) | more than 3 years ago | (#34894604)

Ok, "control" is the wrong word here. "Denial of service" is maybe more fitting.

Re:When this happens to the US or its allies (1)

mikelieman (35628) | more than 3 years ago | (#34894620)

Why do you believe that Iran controls all of the Strait of Hormuz?

What would it take? A couple of containers full of Chinese missiles?

Re:When this happens to the US or its allies (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34894660)

I'll give you twenty containers of anything you want, and I get the 5th fleet.

I like my chances.

Re:When this happens to the US or its allies (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34894714)

All depends who gets the first move.

Re:When this happens to the US or its allies (1)

AHuxley (892839) | more than 3 years ago | (#34894844)

The hope is that the US computers and defensive hardware will become less than perfect when confronted with way too many cheap missile targets.
Add in needed reload and short resetting delays, something might get past.

Re:When this happens to the US or its allies (4, Insightful)

gman003 (1693318) | more than 3 years ago | (#34894438)

The US is not fighting a war in Iraq. The US is fighting an occupation. This is a significantly different task, one that the American Army is not designed for. The US Army is designed to crush, to destroy, to annihilate the enemy - and the US Army is possibly the best army in the world at this. Fighting an insurgency is a much different task - it requires completely different training, logistics, organization, even equipment. The two are as different as HTML and assembly language.

The "war" part of Gulf War II was over in weeks. Very few conventional military forces can stand against the US, and none of those are in the Middle East. If the US launched a proper war (go in, kill every soldier, leave the country), the battle would last a few weeks. Think Poland in 1939 - I give Iran about a month of real Total War, before it collapses. And that's assuming the US doesn't use nukes - if it did, I give it about an hour before it becomes the Islamic Cinder Pile of Iran.

Re:When this happens to the US or its allies (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34894522)

Too bad 'Real War' != Nineteen Thirty Whatever. If the U.S. attacked Iran, Iran and Hezbollah would go nuts attacking Israel w/missiles, rockets, etc. Plus Iran is currently chairing OPEC.....even in 'Real War,' our strategic position is not good.

But...the broader point is that war is terrible and fantasizing about the 'Islamic Cinder Pile of Iran' is bad!

Re:When this happens to the US or its allies (0)

biryokumaru (822262) | more than 3 years ago | (#34894624)

Right, OPEC... I'm absolutely certain that our biggest petroleum source in OPEC, Canada, would side with Iran should we go to war. That makes perfect sense.

Re:When this happens to the US or its allies (2)

vertinox (846076) | more than 3 years ago | (#34894842)

Right, OPEC... I'm absolutely certain that our biggest petroleum source in OPEC, Canada, would side with Iran should we go to war. That makes perfect sense.

China might be unhappy as Iran is its leading oil import nation and such a move would cause their energy prices to skyrocket.

Of course, they could make up the difference by selling the Iranians weapons.

Re:When this happens to the US or its allies (1)

Nemyst (1383049) | more than 3 years ago | (#34894646)

I think you're not getting what the OP is saying... Were the US not to care about public opinion or were they to have the support of the international community in a total war against Iraq, they would utterly annihilate any opposition, be it from Iraq, Iran, Pakistan, whatever. Israel would react swiftly to any attack from Iran (I think their performance is not up to question, with what the Six-Day War showed).

The thing is that this is not the kind of war the US is trying to lead.

Re:When this happens to the US or its allies (1)

sjames (1099) | more than 3 years ago | (#34894712)

Chairing OPEC wouldn't help them much.

However, I agree fully that war is to be avoided rather than glorified.

Re:When this happens to the US or its allies (0)

brainboyz (114458) | more than 3 years ago | (#34894804)

And give Israel 100% justification to out-right flatten Palestine? I don't think even Hezbollah is that stupid. Israel cares very little about public opinion when it comes to protecting the state. Iran/Hezbollah starts throwing more than annoyance-level bombs over the border and Israel fires up the bulldozers, gives 2-hour notice to evacuate, and starts evicting every last Palestinian in sight. It would be chaos, and guaranteed that the Israelis wouldn't give a damn. They might nuke Tehran just for giggles at that point.

Re:When this happens to the US or its allies (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34894642)

And that's assuming the US doesn't use nukes - if it did, I give it about an hour before it becomes the Islamic Cinder Pile of Iran.

And if Iran (or supporters) use nukes?

Re:When this happens to the US or its allies (1)

Entropy98 (1340659) | more than 3 years ago | (#34894704)

And that's assuming the US doesn't use nukes - if it did, I give it about an hour before it becomes the Islamic Cinder Pile of Iran.

And if Iran (or supporters) use nukes?

How many do they have? How big are they? What kind of delivery systems do they have? Can they launch them before their country is destroyed?

I dont think they or they're supporters have any significant capability.

Of course engaging in nuclear war with Iran would be completely unnecessary and morally reprehensible.

Re:When this happens to the US or its allies (5, Insightful)

guyminuslife (1349809) | more than 3 years ago | (#34894782)

They don't have nukes. But lets say, for argument's sake, that they develop them.

First of all, any nuclear weapons that Iran develops are likely to be much smaller-scale than the weapons that have been rusting away in the US stockpiles since the 1950s. Fat Man and Little Boy were big bombs, but they aren't even close to the scale of the arms developed during the Cold War.

Second, a nuclear Iran does not mean the difference between zero nuclear weapons and the stockpile that, say, Russia/Britain/India has. There's a recurring cost and a recurring development time.

Third, and probably most importantly, Iran doesn't have the capacity to send long-range missiles. (This is also the case with North Korea.) They could nuke Israel, but not much further than that. The United States would not see any damage due to conventional deployment; the only way that Iran would be able to attack would be to supply terrorist groups.

But then their country's ash. I don't have particularly high esteem for the Iranian leadership, but they're not stupid, they're not suicidal, and they understand MAD. So it's a moot point. The rationale for wanting nukes is pretty obvious: Iran is in a position where two of its neighbors got invaded in the past 10 years by the Americans, who they don't stand a chance against in a conventional war, and who have been rattling their sabers since 1979. I don't think Iran particularly cares about starting a war, the nuclear program is more of a deterrent against turning into Iraq or Afghanistan.

Re:When this happens to the US or its allies (1)

Cwix (1671282) | more than 3 years ago | (#34894806)

Iran doesn't have anything that can reach us, they would have to beg Russia of China to do it, which I doubt either would take such a drastic step.

Re:When this happens to the US or its allies (1)

Mana Mana (16072) | more than 3 years ago | (#34894786)

If Truman didn't use atomics against China's forces crossing the Korean border and involving itself during that war, they wont be used against Iran. I can foresee North Korea being nuked in retaliation for nuclear warfare against the USA. Their math is bad enough to think they can profit from doing so.

After a decade of contemplation of the issues I can not understand the reticence the ROK, and the USA have calling the DPRK's bluff. The shit gets worse decade after decade. Videlicet, if Clinton would have attacked the North, as it is claimed he nearly did, in the 1990s we would have resolution without the nuclear issue being a concern.

Ultimately this continuing mess is the South's creation. They habitually coddle their lunatic northern _Korean_ brothers!{1] It's no secret. As a result, the USA not too long ago moved their majority of DMZ forces miles _behind_ the South's. It signaled to the South that when the lead flies eventually, because of your negligence, the brunt of the immediate losses will be yours. Till then the South felt secure in being last (second) to the fight and slaughter behind the USA's lines. FYI, when the North restarts the war it will rain tens of thousands of artillery rounds on Seoul within minutes of major hostilities.

Guy walks into a bar, kicks your date, spits on you, blackmails you for drinks, and then says `fuck you! do as I say or I'll shoot myself in the head.' Go ahead, it's better than this.

[1] The present fury with North Korea is the exception ( Yeonpyeong Island attack, Cheonan sinking ). Will it last? Maybe.

Re:When this happens to the US or its allies (3, Interesting)

theNAM666 (179776) | more than 3 years ago | (#34894850)

You, are unfortunately, incorrect.

Iraq feel because it was neither prepared nor ready for war. Iran has been preparing for war for close to a decade, apace. War with Iran will be no walk in the cake, it will be real war, with real consequences, including the likelihood of casualty numbers that the United States has not seen since the Second World War. Don't kid yourself.

P.S. My friends from the 101st assure me that your characterization of the narrow nature of US forces and their training and preparation is also largely a pile of poop; US Armed Forces are also one of the largest and most prepared humanitarian response forces, as well.

Re:When this happens to the US or its allies (1)

shop S Mart (755311) | more than 3 years ago | (#34894454)

Not really, the US military wiped the Iraq military off the map easily, it was the occupation and insurgency that caused problems. I bet Egypt, Syria and Jordan thought they'd do just fine too when they attacked Israel.

Re:When this happens to the US or its allies (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34894470)

So, the Iraqi minister of information got a slashdot account...

The us didn't barely win the military campaign against Iraq. They rolled over them in short order with obscenely lopsided casualties. Iran would be little different.

Re:When this happens to the US or its allies (1)

odd42 (1370641) | more than 3 years ago | (#34894476)

Uh. The US barely 'won' against a FAR inferior Iraq, and is losing badly against a stone age country. I'm pretty sure Iran would do just fine, especially seeing as how they have control of 100% of the straits of Hormuz.

Long-term Iraq and Afghanistan "wars" were failures as police-actions (after any major military conflict) in attempts to eliminate civilian casualties, having this goal to maintain legitimacy in initiating the conflicts. Iranian war on the US (the feasibility of which if judged according to the above US difficulties in Iraq/Afghanistan) is not advisable by any sane person.

Re:When this happens to the US or its allies (1)

filthpickle (1199927) | more than 3 years ago | (#34894520)

Uh. Wow.

Re:When this happens to the US or its allies (1)

morgan_greywolf (835522) | more than 3 years ago | (#34894536)

Not so. The U.S. crushed the Iraqi Army and toppled the government of Saddam Hussein very quickly. Occupying Iraq is another matter, one that the U.S. military has never really been good at doing because they've never been equipped or trained for it.

As for the "stone age country," I assume you're talking about Afghanistan. The U.S. is not losing badly in Afghanistan; the U.S. military has not achieved its objectives, sure, but our nation's objectives in Afghanistan primarily revolve around the capture of Osama bin Laden, who may nor may not even be alive. Finding international terrorists as smart as bin Laden is simply not an easy task; other countries seeking Osama bin Laden also haven't captured him either.

Re:When this happens to the US or its allies (1)

countertrolling (1585477) | more than 3 years ago | (#34894570)

We can end these wars, just as soon as General Grievous is killed.

Re:When this happens to the US or its allies (1)

Lord Kano (13027) | more than 3 years ago | (#34894640)

Uh. The US barely 'won' against a FAR inferior Iraq, and is losing badly against a stone age country. I'm pretty sure Iran would do just fine, especially seeing as how they have control of 100% of the straits of Hormuz.

Hardly. The actual "war" part was over in less than two weeks, for some reason the shot-callers assumed that all Iraqis would be so overjoyed at Saddam's ouster that they would be undyingly grateful to whomever was responsible.

LK

Nothing 'counter' about that post (3, Insightful)

mother_reincarnated (1099781) | more than 3 years ago | (#34894296)

In this case whoever did it seems to have averted war at least for a few years.

Re:Nothing 'counter' about that post (0)

benjamindees (441808) | more than 3 years ago | (#34894352)

In this case whoever did it seems to have averted war at least for a few years.

At times, it has frustrated me that the majority of people really think this way... with such a limited, uncritical, and reactionary world-view.

Lately I just feel sorry for you.

Re:Nothing 'counter' about that post (1)

mother_reincarnated (1099781) | more than 3 years ago | (#34894398)

Lately I just feel sorry for you.

Thanks! It's nice to know someone cares.

Re:Nothing 'counter' about that post (1)

biryokumaru (822262) | more than 3 years ago | (#34894630)

I'm confused... being thankful that war is averted is limited and reactionary? What's the proper response?

Re:Nothing 'counter' about that post (1)

twidarkling (1537077) | more than 3 years ago | (#34894796)

It's not averted. It's delayed. Simply pushing back a war is not a solution. You are sticking your finger in the dike and telling me that you're fine, you just had a good night's sleep. Your finger isn't going to save the dike, and a good night's sleep has nothing to do with it.

The *proper* response is work towards resolving the issues between two parties, and eliminating the chance of war. Pissing off one side further to simply buy a few years peace is not going to help anything.

like if say, someone blew up a ship of our ally? (0)

hildi (868839) | more than 3 years ago | (#34894474)

and killed dozens of sailors? or, say, shelled their islands killing 4 people? like that kind of act of war that brought on armageddon? you mean we would go and bomb them into the stone age? oh .. ok. coz im pretty sure we would 'write them a very stern letter', or in Obama's days, "work closely with our partners to blah blah blah blah" i love the 'work closely with our partners' thing. where the hell did that come from?

Re:like if say, someone blew up a ship of our ally (1)

Ethanol-fueled (1125189) | more than 3 years ago | (#34894524)

Iran has oil. North Korea are just a joke.

Re:like if say, someone blew up a ship of our ally (2)

arth1 (260657) | more than 3 years ago | (#34894856)

North Korea are just a joke.

That's what MacArthur thought.

The funny thing about modern war is that everybody loses. The victor loses too. That the enemy lost more doesn't negate your own losses.
And right now, I don't think the US could afford "winning" another war.

Re:When this happens to the US or its allies (1)

LBArrettAnderson (655246) | more than 3 years ago | (#34894540)

You do realize that things like this are attempted against the US *all the time,* right? And sponsored by various governments, no less. You have the whole thing backwards. If Iran is led to believe that it was the US (NYT is not a good source for this kind of information information), *they* will consider it an act of war.

Who... (1)

avtchillsboro (986655) | more than 3 years ago | (#34894252)

WhooRah!!

Huge disappointment to some (0, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34894280)

Because the NYT was unable to definitively blame the US & Israel, this is a huge disappointment to them and their fellow "blame the US" & Israel crowd.

Re:Huge disappointment to some (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34894340)

Shouldn't you be proud that US and Israel pulled off what is obviously a very ingenious act of sabotage? Or do you feel that whoever did it (and it couldn't possibly be US and/or Israel) deserves shame?

Re:Huge disappointment to some (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34894372)

Some people speak as though they actually believe that there is a large chunk of the US that wants to blame the US for all sorts of problems. I have a hard time understanding how this could be believed, so I like to tell myself that it's just trolling... but I've seen the accusation enough that I fear there are those who truly think that those who criticize the US/Israel (whoever) are doing it solely because they like to criticize.

Do such people truly exist?

Re:Huge disappointment to some (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34894598)

Some people speak as though they actually believe that there is a large chunk of the US that wants to blame the US for all sorts of problems. I have a hard time understanding how this could be believed, so I like to tell myself that it's just trolling... but I've seen the accusation enough that I fear there are those who truly think that those who criticize the US/Israel (whoever) are doing it solely because they like to criticize.

Do such people truly exist?

It depends on your point of view. Assume that the US is always right, and every sane person knows it. If anyone says America is not right, they must be at least one of the following:

* A lier.
* Insane.
* Out to destroy America by using propaganda to take the will to do the right thing away from Americans.

If you believe this, "blame america first" is exactly how you would describe a person who lacks your "perspective".

I have lived in five states in the past decade, and the three in the southeast have many people who think this way. "think" might not be the right word. It is more of a matter of faith.

Palin's talk about "American Exceptionalism", or Reagan's speeches about "America as a city on a hill" are ways of expressing the idea that America is guided by god, and incapable of error.

Color me impressed (4, Interesting)

moogied (1175879) | more than 3 years ago | (#34894290)

You really have to hand it to Israel, they continue to be the very best at cloak and dagger style work. Yes, I consider this C&D due to its ingenious nature. Spread a massive virus across as many systems as you can, and nestle a chunk a code in it to only activate on the correct system. This not only requires the method to spread it, but far more impressive is the fact that it required the correct code for there machines. This means they do 100% have spys inside of Iran's nuclear systems and gives a butt load more credit to the statements made by Israel and America about Iran's nuclear goals. Well done

Re:Color me impressed (-1, Flamebait)

treecat (932664) | more than 3 years ago | (#34894338)

You really have to hand it to Israel, they continue to be the very best at cloak and dagger style work.

Yes; they don't have a damned-near-traitorous coward as their chief executive.

Re:Color me impressed (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34894792)

You do realize that GWB is no longer the chief executive?

Re:Color me impressed (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34894800)

Look at what a piece of shit you are.

Re:Color me impressed (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34894354)

Erhm, The US's own intelligence reports indicate there is no credible evidence of a nuclear weapons program. Nobody denies that Iran has a nuclear program of some sort, the dispute is whether or not they doing it for the purpose of building weapons. The thought that they might be building one is why we're so determined to stop them from enriching uranium that could be used for weapons.

Re:Color me impressed (1)

morgan_greywolf (835522) | more than 3 years ago | (#34894560)

The thought that they might be building one is why we're so determined to stop them from enriching uranium that could be used for weapons.

Well, if you knew just how crazy the Ayotollah is, you'd probably want to prevent any possibility of him having nuclear weapons under his control, too.

Re:Color me impressed (1)

Opportunist (166417) | more than 3 years ago | (#34894628)

Well, how crazy is he?

Re:Color me impressed (1)

morgan_greywolf (835522) | more than 3 years ago | (#34894658)

Well, he forbids Iranians from staying in hotels used by Buddhists, prohibits the wearing of neckties, and banned the teaching of music to children. Sounds pretty nuts to me.

Re:Color me impressed (2)

ae1294 (1547521) | more than 3 years ago | (#34894686)

Well, how crazy is he?

He's selling all Wacky Inflatable Tube Men for 80% off! That's right Wacky Inflatable Tube Men NOW 80% off!! Get yours today!

Re:Color me impressed (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34894380)

unless iran makes their own centrifuges and control systems (hint motherfucker - they don't) - then all you need to know is what systems would be involved. But you're an unemployed faggot so what the fuck do I give a shit. Why am I even typing this? FOR STYLE MOTHERFUCKER!

--

Suck my throbbing pink cock Slashdot

Re:Color me impressed (1)

meerling (1487879) | more than 3 years ago | (#34894428)

They don't. Even the pseudo-journalists were able to easily identify the company that made the systems Iran is using, and even which models Iran bought. Somehow I don't think anybody with a major wild hair for screwing them over had any more difficulty in finding that out.

Re:Color me impressed (5, Insightful)

drolli (522659) | more than 3 years ago | (#34894394)

Or you have to have spys in the Companies providing the parts. Siemens does not have a strong culture of being paranoid, especially not against western/pro-western secret services, with which they probably collaborate anyway when it comes to identifying industrial espionage from other services. I am pretty sure that the BND (German secret service) can ask them for plans and details quite openly (i guess you don't produce parts relevant for nuclear technology or military infrastructure without having liaison officer assigned to you), and probably also for the source code of the embedded SPS modules. For sure the same holds true for the manufacturer of the turbines. Since the Western secret services collaborate on an less prominent, informal level (see e.g. the BND agents in Baghdad during the war which reported back to the NATO headquarters, where obviously - no records exist - they helped clearing military targets in Iraq, despite Germany no being officially involved in the war).

I would guess that actually several secret services collaborated in this, but the "Cui Bono?" points to Israel.

Re:Color me impressed (1)

SheeEttin (899897) | more than 3 years ago | (#34894406)

This means they do 100% have spys inside of Iran's nuclear systems

Uh, no. This means they do 100% have people who studied the systems Iran is using. (Which I doubt would be too hard to figure out, if you just do a little asking around and/or research into some purchases or shipping.)
Spying in the sense of "having someone on the inside" is overrated these days. You're either using informants or telecommunications (Internet or otherwise).

Insertion (4, Interesting)

lseltzer (311306) | more than 3 years ago | (#34894486)

There are a few important aspects of the story that didn't get covered by the NYT. One is that there was no mention of the origin of the 4 zero-day Windows vulnerabilities and another is the insertion method. Obviously Stuxnet wasn't just blasted out on botnets. Someone got it very close, probably into a facility or more than one facility, or perhaps into a government office or contractor. That's one of the aspects of this that always told me it was a state actor with quality human intelligence capabilities. Actually, my wild guess before is that a contractor from Siemens or someone like that spread it. Which brings up another aspect of this: This story can't be good news for Siemens's customer relations, especially with their government customers.

it means they have spies in Russia (2)

hildi (868839) | more than 3 years ago | (#34894498)

considering that 1. Massive numbers of Jews left Russia to go to Israel in the past 20 years 2. Massive numbers of those Russians know a shitload about computers and 3. Massive numbers of them keep contact with their buds in Russia and 4. Russia has been helping Iran with its 'civilian' nuclear program for a long time. Now, 4 is probably at the behest of the CIA, who pays the Russians big bucks to go "help" Iran. Thank god, is all I have to say, because of the Russians weren't inside Iran's program watching it, then the Chinese would be, and that's the last thing we need, a China-Iran alliance.

One thing for sure (2)

countertrolling (1585477) | more than 3 years ago | (#34894320)

You'll never be able to trust anything more complex than a simple light switch ever again. Wait till all this crap gets into your "smart grid". It'll be comedic to say the least.

Re:One thing for sure (1)

brusk (135896) | more than 3 years ago | (#34894400)

Why would you trust a light switch? It could, for example, be made of a memory alloy designed to deform under certain conditions and change the state of the circuit--or perhaps to zap you the next time you touch it.

Re:One thing for sure (1)

KingFrog (1888802) | more than 3 years ago | (#34894626)

OR it could be a memetic alloy terminator *disguised* as a light switch...

Israeli is the doer? (0)

dangitman (862676) | more than 3 years ago | (#34894362)

.... Israeli is the doer...

Do this implode the horrible consequence that human are the thingifier? Slashdot are the grammarmaker!

Re:Israeli is the doer? (1)

brusk (135896) | more than 3 years ago | (#34894410)

What's wrong with doer? It's a perfectly good English word--it was quite old already when Shakespeare used it.

Re:Israeli is the doer? (1)

dangitman (862676) | more than 3 years ago | (#34894464)

What's wrong with doer? It's a perfectly good English word--it was quite old already when Shakespeare used it.

Regardless of the appropriateness of "doer" the most obvious fault is with "Israeli." Presumably we are are talking about the actions of the government of Israel. In which case "Israel is the doer" would be appropriate. If your were talking about the people of Israel committing the act, then "Israelis are the doers" would be an acceptable phrase.

Much better would be "The alleged culprit is the government of Israel."

Re:Israeli is the doer? (1)

morgan_greywolf (835522) | more than 3 years ago | (#34894580)

There's nothing wrong with the word 'doer', however saying "Israeli is the doer" doesn't quite make sense. That would be like saying "American is the doer."

Perhaps they meant to say that "the Israelis are the doer" or "the Israeli government is the doer" or simply "Israel is the doer".

Re:Israeli is the doer? (1)

tolstoise (1286676) | more than 3 years ago | (#34894768)

Doer is a perfectly cromulent word

NO (1)

monkyyy (1901940) | more than 3 years ago | (#34894408)

im sticking to the theory of one lone hacker, either not connected to a government, or paying off jail time did it; till the almost is out of the picture

as no one in government know computers, otherwise their nonsence laws would be enforceable or abusable

OpenBSD IPsec (5, Interesting)

Mysteray (713473) | more than 3 years ago | (#34894418)

Jason Wright, the OpenBSD developer funded by NETSEC to work on IPsec (and allegedly put in backdoors for the FBI) went to work at the DHS cyber security lab that the NYT is saying helped do Stuxnet http://nyti.ms/grd51X [nyti.ms] http://bit.ly/feB9ZV [bit.ly]

SecTor 2008 gives his speaker bio http://www.sector.ca/speakers2008.htm [sector.ca]

Jason Wright is a cyber security researcher at the Idaho National Laboratory working with SCADA and Process Control system vendors to secure critical infrastructure assets. He is also a semi-retired OpenBSD developer (also known as a "slacker") responsible for many device drivers and layer 2 pieces of kernel code.

I am not making this up.

I'll have to put it in a blog post this evening. See homepage link.

Re:OpenBSD IPsec (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34894554)

So basically anyone who has worked with SCADA must must have had a role in creating Stuxnet?

Re:OpenBSD IPsec (2)

Mysteray (713473) | more than 3 years ago | (#34894682)

No.

If you read TFNYTA, it says specifically this lab helped to do it. If you followed the links, you'd see a slide presentation of the lab doing a security assessment of Siemens SCADA system like those used in Iran for enrichment and slides describing attacks on SCADA systems.

Jason Wright transitioned away from OpenBSD IPsec development to work on SCADA security at this lab.

Re:OpenBSD IPsec (0)

slimjim8094 (941042) | more than 3 years ago | (#34894614)

Yeah, except Stuxnet attacks Windows hosts: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stuxnet [wikipedia.org]

Re:OpenBSD IPsec (1)

Mysteray (713473) | more than 3 years ago | (#34894688)

What are you saying? That no one could be smart enough to work on multiple operating systems?

Confirming? (3, Insightful)

MikeV (7307) | more than 3 years ago | (#34894460)

Since when is the media considered factual confirmation? "Hey, let's all go out and look at the Inquirer to get proof that aliens exist!" While it is almost certain that the attack did originate from the suspected nations, a better wording would be, "supporting /* speculation" rather than "confirming" seeing as NYT is certainly not the fount of truth and honesty in reporting and fact-finding. Now excuse me while I go study on Wikipedia...

Manifesto included (2)

meerling (1487879) | more than 3 years ago | (#34894496)

I have to agree with those that think this article was a bunch of innuendo and unsubstantiated statements.

"...when it began circulating around the world, unexplained, in mid-2009. .."

I found it extremely funny when they mentioned that the worm had no explanation of it's purpose, as if that were somehow indicative of a covert and malicious nature.
So, does anybody out there know of any worm, virus, trojan, or other malware that actually comes with a manifesto to explain it's existence/purpose?

By the way, all the pundits saying it would take the resources of a government to create that worm know very little about what it actually takes to make one. It did however take very intimate knowledge of the code running on those systems, so the creator probably has a copy of the source code on those machines, or the equivalent. (I'm pretty sure it's too large to be memorized by a single person.)

Lawyers (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34894558)

Does this mean that companies in the US can obtain compensation from the government for the damage done to their computer systems and their efforts to remove the worm? Can Siemens sue the US government for trashing its customers worldwide?

Re:Lawyers (1)

Cwix (1671282) | more than 3 years ago | (#34894836)

Prove the government did it.

The government would claim state secrets and walk away.

How long will it be? (3, Insightful)

Johnny Fusion (658094) | more than 3 years ago | (#34894566)

Now albeit through anonymous sources that government powers are developing malware, how will it be either through legislation, treaty or "gentleman's agreement" that anti-virus software manufacturers will have to look the other way for certain payloads? Is this already happening? Certainly the Third Amendment tells us we don't have to use our homes to quarter soldiers, but will the government use its citizenry's hard drives and bandwidth to host a weapon?

Re:How long will it be? (1)

Opportunist (166417) | more than 3 years ago | (#34894638)

Government taking my hard drive?

From my cold, dead hands!

How long will it be?-IBM (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34894706)

I have an IBM "Deathstar". They'll never get anything out of that.

I have to say I'm impressed (0)

Sarusa (104047) | more than 3 years ago | (#34894636)

1) I didn't think the US was sophisticated enough to help with something like this, much less keep its Facebook privacy settings. Maybe the US contribution was just 'click on google.ir?'

2) This is much, much preferable to Israel bombing (or even nuking) bits of Iran. Shutting down their nuclear bomb program this way is far better - of course it also lets the cat out of the bag.

Re:I have to say I'm impressed (1)

Entropy98 (1340659) | more than 3 years ago | (#34894664)

2) This is much, much preferable to Israel bombing (or even nuking) bits of Iran. Shutting down their nuclear bomb program this way is far better - of course it also lets the cat out of the bag.

Much preferable, but much less effective.

Not Just Israel and USA (1)

geoffrobinson (109879) | more than 3 years ago | (#34894752)

I'm currently working my way through the article, but I'm sure a collection of sane countries helped out on this. I would guess the Saudis, the Brits, and the Germans helped out in some form or another.

Again, the question of blowback (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34894762)

Are worms like this engineered to stay within a targeted ecosystem (i.e. networks involved in Iran's nuclear infrastructure) or can we expect 'blowback'? And if the weaknesses it exploits have been patched or fixed, does this mean there was corporate involvement, or notification after the fact?

So - if you want to be a "real" nuclear power... (2)

NotQuiteReal (608241) | more than 3 years ago | (#34894772)

...you need to build all your own shit, from the ground up.

For now, anyhow. Maybe, in the future, it will be OK to buy your infrastructure off of Craig's List and eBay... (or various Euro conglomerates) but for now, if you want the job done right, do it yourself.

In this case, I think a Simpson's quote, from Nelson would be appropriate - "Ha Ha".

Better than the alternative (1)

Myria (562655) | more than 3 years ago | (#34894820)

What would you rather have, Israel and the US bombing Tehran, or the CIA and Mossad making a computer virus to disable centrifuges? I think I'll open door #2, thank you very much.

Either way, you have collateral damage; I just think the world is better off with fried OS installations than fried humans.

Counterproductive? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34894822)

Stuxnet looks like it's bought Israel and The West time to try alternatives to military action before Iran develops the bomb. But the main alternative is regime change, and encouraging home-grown counter-revolution is hard, as the US found with Castro and Saddam. Here you've got the tougher nut of a authoritarian theocracy.

Now you've got a humiliated Iran, who will be even more determined to develop nuclear missiles and to export terrorism as a way of balancing their feeling of powerlessness.

So I see two endgames: regime change via military action, or a treaty driven by concessions from Israel and the West. The latter will have to involve resolving any perceived Western hypocrisy over Israel. This would include Israel also giving up her nuclear capability, even though form suggests that Iran can't be trusted as much as Israel not to use nukes provocatively.

Blame all this on the Italians. They started the ball rolling in 135.

Isn't it interesting... (1)

Loopy (41728) | more than 3 years ago | (#34894824)

...that NYT does all this work on StuxNet and so little on the current US administration and its allies?

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