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Crunch Time For WebOS, BlackBerry

Soulskill posted more than 3 years ago | from the drowning-in-a-sea-of-trendiness dept.

HP 178

GMGruman writes "Hewlett-Packard is planning to unveil its Palm WebOS strategy in a few weeks, while RIM is allegedly working up a new version of its popular Curve that uses the new BlackBerry OS 6 and its touch interface. WebOS has largely faded from view since HP bought it nine months ago, and RIM's been largely silent since its summer release of the BlackBerry Torch, its first successful modern BlackBerry, and the fall announcement of its PlayBook tablet. Meanwhile, it's been an Apple iOS and Google Android show at CES 2011, in the popular press, and in customers' hands. (Microsoft and Nokia essentially ceased to matter by Christmas 2010.) Is it too late for WebOS and BlackBerry? They're running out of time, and the public signs of their plans are not so positive. Still, the two 'also-ran' mobile OSes have a couple opportunities to resurrect themselves."

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Not too late! (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34910228)

Ha! "Microsoft and Nokia essentially ceased to matter by Christmas 2010" --- dream on my friend

On a serious note - I dont think its too late to come back for WebOS and RIM. WebOS is a robust and smooth OS that was sabotaged by Palm's mishandling. And as far as crackberry they have a strong enough market presense to take their time

Re:Not too late! (5, Funny)

the linux geek (799780) | more than 3 years ago | (#34910300)

Yeah, saying that the #1 manufacturer of smartphones "ceased to matter" is pretty epic.

Re:Not too late! (1)

sarysa (1089739) | more than 3 years ago | (#34910460)

Nokia has ceased to matter in the states, but I agree with your sentiment. TFA has an extremely American bent.

Re:Not too late! (3, Informative)

PCM2 (4486) | more than 3 years ago | (#34910634)

Yeah, except for the part about BlackBerry being an "also-ran OS," when in fact BlackBerry is still the leading smartphone platform in the U.S.

Re:Not too late! (1)

Chaos Incarnate (772793) | more than 3 years ago | (#34912370)

Blackberry has a huge install base. But how are they doing on new handset sales? I thought that those were pretty much in the gutter...

Re:Not too late! (1)

narcc (412956) | more than 3 years ago | (#34912880)

RIMs 'consumer' offerings have been pretty weak. Their 'business' products, however, are as solid as ever.

That's really why I can't discount them. While the trend toward shiny touchscreen toy phones has pushed them to the margins, they still offer the best productivity tools in the market.

It's easy to get sucked into the flashy interface on products like the iPhone or Droid X, it's novel, it's new, and let's them do more than any 'feature phone' they've had in the past. It's no wonder they're not attracted to the 'boring' models RIM and Palm are offering.

But as users start to do more with their phones, they're going to start to expect usability to improve -- and that's when no amount of additional 'shiny' is going to make the sale.

Making users more productive is where RIM really excels -- it's why they were the untouchable leader in smartphones for so many years.

In it's day, Palm built it's reputation on improving the productivity of it's users. With few exceptions, it's products out-shined competitors with technically superior systems. If HP managed to retain some of that expertise, you can expect users will find Palms future offerings quite attractive.

Re:Not too late! (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34912650)

Blackberries are the only smart phone currently made in significant numbers with camera-less variants. That alone (government contracts, some private sector ones) keeps RIM in the game.

Re:Not too late! (0)

RyuuzakiTetsuya (195424) | more than 3 years ago | (#34910518)

Nokia's the phone equivalent to GM. #1 in sales globally, sure, but, who's making waves in the industry? Who's dictating where things go? It's certainly NOT GM. And it's certainly not Nokia.

Re:Not too late! (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34910576)

Well, that's like saying the British Empire dominates the world ...in 1945. That may have been true at that time but anyone intelligent could see where things were heading.

Re:Not too late! (2)

BlueStraggler (765543) | more than 3 years ago | (#34910738)

Yeah, saying that the #1 manufacturer of smartphones "ceased to matter" is pretty epic.

They "matter" if they are charting the course of the industry, which they clearly are not. Not in the USA, not in Japan, not even in Finland. The fact that they continue to sell lots of phones and make money does not "matter" to anyone except to their shareholders. And I'm pretty sure that Nokia shareholders are not too happy right now--their stock is trading around $10 from a high of $40 a couple years ago. Their executives publicly admit that they have been clobbered by the iPhone revolution, and they still have no real plan for dealing with it.

Re:Not too late! (2)

sarhjinian (94086) | more than 3 years ago | (#34911472)

The problem isn't that they don't have a plan, it's that they have about five or six different plans, all half-baked, self-competing and receiving of little attention. The above comparison to General Motors is very apt.

Re:Not too late! (1)

drunken-yeti (1874620) | more than 3 years ago | (#34910960)

I think Blackberries being replaced in the enterprise enviroment is about as liklly as Gmail replacing Outlook. Blackberries have their niche and they are very secure in that niche.

Re:Not too late! (1)

jonbryce (703250) | more than 3 years ago | (#34911028)

I'd say it is about as likely as Outlook 2010 replacing Outlook 2003. Exchange's remote management features are getting better all the time, and Android's support for them is getting better all the time.

Re:Not too late! (1)

dangitman (862676) | more than 3 years ago | (#34911046)

I think Blackberries being replaced in the enterprise enviroment is about as liklly as Gmail replacing Outlook.

Which is what our medium-large company has just done. Don't you know Google has been offering corporate/institutional services for quite a while?

Re:Not too late! (1)

h4rr4r (612664) | more than 3 years ago | (#34911126)

We have replaced all but the last few, Android and iPhones are what are replacing them. The Verizon iPhone means we are going to replace about half of what we had left. RIM is living on borrowed time.

Re:Not too late! (4, Funny)

narcc (412956) | more than 3 years ago | (#34912522)

They'll be back -- assuming they use their phone for doing actual work. If they're only using the extra functionality for playing 'angry birds', you may want to review your policy.

My brief flirtation with an iPhone left me begging for my BB within hours. It was fun, but I didn't need a toy phone.

While I'll agree that RIM's efforts to enter the 'individual' market have been a bit ham-fisted (Pearl, Storm, Style) their 'business' products have always been ahead of the curve when it comes to productivity.

The BB Torch is the exception, as it's remarkable as an "in between" product. It's like a higher-resolution iPhone 3GS that you can do actual work on. It's my current phone.

Having seen some of the new iPhone and Android products, I was disappointed at first that the Torch was technically underpowered and had a lower-resolution display. That feeling didn't last long as the touch pad and physical keyboard made tasks difficult to perform with a touch-screen only interface effortless. While my non-BB using colleagues struggle, I get things done.

Toss in Documents To Go and RIMs unparalleled email and messaging software and it's an easy sell.

That said, I'll likely trade in my Torch for the next phone in the Bold line. The touchscreen doesn't improve usability, the keyboard isn't as good as the Bold's, and the phone doesn't quite 'balance' right when the keyboard is out.

(I gave it a chance, but playtime is over. It's time to get back to work.)

I expect that once the novelty wears off you'll see people more away from the flashy toys and back to serious tools. This is where RIM and Palm really shine.

Don't count them out so quickly.

Re:Not too late! (1)

jonbryce (703250) | more than 3 years ago | (#34911010)

I don't think Nokia are the no 1 manufacturer of smart phones. They are certainly the No 1 manufacturer of £10 pay as you go budget phones, but that leaves them competing with Chinese manufacturers such as ZTE and INQ.

Re:Not too late! (1)

valdyn (445073) | more than 3 years ago | (#34912808)

Nokia are Number 1 in smartphones, by far, above 30% market share for 2010. Contrary to popular believe their market share in smartphones is *bigger* than their market share in dumb phones. http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-11-10/nokia-s-market-share-slips-below-30-as-smaller-vendors-grow-gartner-says.html [bloomberg.com]

Re:Not too late! (1)

node 3 (115640) | more than 3 years ago | (#34911096)

Blackberry is fading. Android's rise has been largely at the expense of Blackberry. Their current offerings are not compelling, and their only reliable user base are those stuck in the past. Basing the success of your product on such a market segment isn't wise (which is why they are working so hard to come up with a good touch/tablet system).

Blackberry is heading the way of PalmOS and/or Amiga. A system stuck in the past, with some vocal people that will stick around a bit longer than is otherwise reasonable.

The same goes for Nokia, except they don't even really have a cogent game plan. Maybe worldwide there is some compelling reason to buy a Nokia smartphone, but in the US, anyone considering Nokia would be far better served by Android (iPhone users wouldn't really be looking into Nokia in the first place).

MS has been lapped, two+ years ago. They have a long way to get back into the race, and it doesn't seem likely. MS can't out-geek Google or out-design Apple, so it's extremely difficult to see who their target audience is supposed to be.

Everything interesting going on in the handheld market right now is going on in Android and iOS. The rest are just footnotes.

Re:Not too late! (1)

sarhjinian (94086) | more than 3 years ago | (#34911458)

Nokia's smartphones don't matter. They sell a lot of handsets, but those handsets see little or no app development and contribute, per unit, very little margin. They're number one, but in an irrelevant way.

And I say this as a past owner of several handsets and an erstwhile fan. Nokia has no PC-side leverage like Microsoft, lacks the enterprise management tools that BlackBerry does, and has nothing like the developer momentum of Android or iOS. The phones and the core functionality are solid, but the UI is still clunky (as of Symbian^3), the applications often buggy or sub-par, the developer direction highly unclear (so is it Symbian this week? Maemo/Meego/Waytogo? Are we still pushing Ovi?) and so forth.

They've taken too long and frittered away too much opportunity, much like Motorola did before them. Mark my words, they're going to end up a maker of cheap, commodity phones, competing with LG and Samsung's low-ball offerings for the free-with-your-plan subscription. Or rather, they will until they start spinning off business units left, right and centre.

Re:Not too late! (3, Interesting)

postbigbang (761081) | more than 3 years ago | (#34910362)

Let's see.

Big WebOS and Blackberry web stores with 100s of thousands of apps. Nope.

Cult status of the phone itself. Nope.

People across the world waiting up at stores for the next release, or waiting to upgrade their operating systems with glee. Nope.

Vast ecosystem of accessorizers, weird add-ons, and wicked strange looking cases. Nope.

I'll admit that WebOS is kind of kewl, and you can't deny the crack nature of Blackberries, but you can get that crack in droid and iOS. So, I don't think the poster is dreaming.

Re:Not too late! (5, Insightful)

colmore (56499) | more than 3 years ago | (#34910448)

A whoooole lot of the market is conservative, old, never reads tech news, and has very limited interest in apps. The people who line up at 4:00 AM are good press, but they don't actually count any more than any other consumer.

Blackberry has a market that is wary of switching. If they're smart they should be able to survive and grow.

Re:Not too late! (1)

postbigbang (761081) | more than 3 years ago | (#34910588)

RIM might relinquish their market share more slowly, it's true. Palm has a fanclub, too. And they've been mightily eclipsed by wickedly powerful phones that are getting more talented seemingly every month. If you look at the actual counts of new smartphone purchasers, and there are plentiful numbers, Android and Apple are getting the lion's share of market growth and conversions. This is growth, not retention.

Rotary phones were cool, too. Then those touch-tone thingies arrived and the market moved. Palm, Nokia, RIM, and even Microsoft are getting dusted. Each of these four had their smartphone offerings, and each of these four is getting pounded, and mightily because they haven't evolved their communities and brand loyalty.

Re:Not too late! (5, Interesting)

PCM2 (4486) | more than 3 years ago | (#34910676)

RIM has always enjoyed customer loyalty comparable only to Apple's. They don't call them "CrackBerrys" for nothing. But it's precisely because of this that they face a tough challenge: They need to evolve their product fast enough to keep up with the other smartphone platforms, but they can't change it so much that they alienate their hardcore base. RIM may have leaned too far toward conservatism, though, because their current figures show most of their new subscribers are coming from the lower-end handsets in their product range. That suggests the more savvy consumers with more money to spend are wandering off to iPhone and Android, which is bad, because "business types" represented RIM's hardcore demographic.

Re:Not too late! (4, Interesting)

postbigbang (761081) | more than 3 years ago | (#34910776)

Even the hardcore are taking a hard look at what you can do with other phones. Three months after the iPhone came out, it was forbidden in the board room, but everyone was curious anyway. Six months later, it was the counter-culture thing to have there, along with your CrackBerry. Then the Crackberry was pulled out less and less. The carrier-captive stupidity stopped a few more.

When you look at Droid 2 from Moto, or any one of a hundred other models, it does a lot of work, with a fat community of apps and support. iOS made itself the one to beat, or at least look kewl up against. RIM has tried to remarket the BB in this direction, but so far, it hasn't captured the imagination necessary to reignite sales and get growth. Failing something truly amazing and a community re-think/re-do, the business types aren't going to look at RIM first, but they'll still look.

Re:Not too late! (1)

Dynedain (141758) | more than 3 years ago | (#34911592)

Exactly. At this point, BB's user base is primarily repeat customers, mostly those with corporate contracts and systems already in place. They aren't getting new users switching from other devices. Rather, it's the opposite. Much Android and iOS growth has come at the expense of BB and WinCE market share.

Re:Not too late! (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34912008)

If there's any truth to this leak, it looks like BlackBerry may be turning a corner. Especially since RIM will start putting QNX on their new lineup. QNX is Posix, which means it's not too hard to port a JVM or other environments to it. Maybe even Mono? What does Apple have up its sleeve? Anything? Based on what Apple has released over the last few years, they seem like the ones standing still... just riding on their brand.

http://www.bgr.com/2011/01/14/exclusive-blackberry-storm-3-shows-up-tells-all/

Re:Not too late! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34911226)

Big WebOS and Blackberry web stores with 100s of thousands of apps. Nope.

I want my shovelware and iFart clones!

Re:Not too late! (1)

DavidinAla (639952) | more than 3 years ago | (#34912298)

That reply -- which is a popular one from fans of platforms without many apps -- is ignorant. It's true that there are some stupid apps, but there is an amazing diversity of very high quality apps for iOS -- and Android is way, way ahead of webOS and Blackberry in that regard, too.

Re:Not too late! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34910694)

Research in Motion (RIM) is supposedly developing a new operating system for the BlackBerry devices based on QNX. If only RIM would design BlackBerrys with upgradable system RAM thereby avoiding premature outdating of functional devices. The constant grind to design and produce new devices is a disservice to the consumer.

Re:Not too late! (1)

kurt555gs (309278) | more than 3 years ago | (#34911318)

Except the guy behind Nokia's Maemo, left Nokia and is now in charge of WebOS for HP. Nokia is the one that is screwed stuck between a good but aging Symbian that they just took back to proprietary, the useless Chinese made MeeGo that may work on Intel hardware but is internally sabotaged on ARM, and the new Nokia overlord from Microsoft about to ditch everything and make all Nokia's Windows fone 7 handsets that no one will want.

Sux to be Nokia right now.

Article (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34910258)

Print version of the article is much easier to read: http://www.infoworld.com/print/148576

JUNK SHIT IS STILL JUNK- SHIT !! (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34910276)

And that's a fact Jack !! Ye iPhone by Turtleneck Steve beats the rest !! You know !! I know !! We all know !! Anything is is just JUNK SHIT !!

What's up, Steve ?? Call me !!

Premature to write off Microsoft (4, Funny)

SuperKendall (25149) | more than 3 years ago | (#34910296)

I think it's early days to say Microsoft can get back in the game or not (though I agree Nokia is probably going to end up running Android someday).

Microsoft still has a lot of money to throw at vendors and then there's the aspect of them suing vendors who use Android for patents that Microsoft holds - I believe Balmer has said publically that "Android is not free" for that reason. That is a strategy that may even out Android/WP7 marketshare, plus WP7 is a very polished endeavor.

I'm rooting for WebOS to find a foothold somehow...

Re:Premature to write off Microsoft (2)

jmorris42 (1458) | more than 3 years ago | (#34910336)

> I'm rooting for WebOS to find a foothold somehow...

Why? What does it offer? PalmOS had a lot to offer in its day, small, sleek, resource efficient in a way no Linux could hope to be, as open as possible without going whole hog FS/OS, etc. But now that it is mutated into WebOS? Does anyone think HP has the mojo to make it a player even if it is a technical winner?

I'll root a little for Meego but realize there are almost certainly doomed. The hope of the world to remain free from the RDF is on a half assed Java clone. Shudder.

Re:Premature to write off Microsoft (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34910472)

The hope of the world to remain free from the RDF is on a half assed Java clone.

*rolls eyes* Oh please.

Re:Premature to write off Microsoft (5, Interesting)

Junta (36770) | more than 3 years ago | (#34910516)

So I have a WebOS phone. I find the multi-tasking interface and frankly the menu for quick changes to the radio highly enjoyable. I took it for granted until I tried to navigate around on an Android phone. WebOS (and Blackberry is imitating it on Playbook) has a great way to interact with concurrently running apps and switching between them in full screen mode. The radio menu I didn't think was special, then I found myself working on an Android phone and having to jump out of the menu to go to system settings to do something with bluetooth that was much more immediately accessible on my Pre. Also, surprisingly, my phone had LEAP wireless support out of the gate and my peers were having to try to hand hack wpa_supplicant.conf to get the function out of their Android handsets, that didn't work out of the box. WebOS 2 has Cisco Anyconnect support baked in, but Android is not there yet either. The messaging app does a good job of putting everything (SMS, AIM, jabber, whatever) in one coherent interface.

From an API perspective, they completely screwed up by *not* having the 'PDK' from the get go. They foolishly thought Javascript+HTML5 was 'good enough', with no camera api, no microphone api, no 3D api. Their hardware features crappy, fixed-focus cameras. They rectified mostly the software side, with a nice OpenGL+SDK that makes it trivial to port linux apps (and evidentally iOS), but desperately need decent hardware. One thing they did *almost* just right was the integration of inductiive charging into the experience. They should never have had a non-capable back part, they should have had third-party access (added in WebOS 2), and they should have officially blessed a car-oriented usage of the technology.

So the big thing is they nailed the UI. On the surface, however, the 'big names' that created that have been poached. It's hard to say what will happen now. Microsoft and Google do have the disadvantage that they can't dictate every nth detail to the handset makers, which gives Blackberry, HP, and, of course, Apple, an interesting advantage for the most seamless experience. Apple's vision is clear and I'm not a fan of it myself, so I like an alternative. Palm came closest, but I don't know how Honeycomb, WebOS 2, and the next wave of Blackberry devices will pan out.

Re:Premature to write off Microsoft (1)

h4rr4r (612664) | more than 3 years ago | (#34911164)

I have all that crap on my top menu bar on my droid. Slide it down and turn on or off whatever radio stuff I want. I do think that the typical user never touches that stuff.

Re:Premature to write off Microsoft (2)

rboatright (629657) | more than 3 years ago | (#34912278)

No, actually, you don't.

That's the thing that people who haven't actually used webOS devices don't "get." You do not have what webOS gives you.

In attempting to use android devices over the last few months, I become more and more frustrated at the UI. I'm in a news app, it links out to a web page and I'm in a browser and there's -no way- to get back to the news app without closing the browser. It's running on a computer platform more powerful than my desktop was just a few years ago, and it can't have multiple windows open at the same time? Bah. Humbug.

WebOS provides a seamless user interface. Android and IOS both are cut up into little pieces. It's very frustrating to be in a twitter app, and have a message come in, and a phone call, and no way to select which app I want to go back to, even if the OS didn't put the apps not on screen on hold instead of letting them continue to run in the background.

On webos, I can have a video running in a minimized card while I have a phone call going on, while I have a twiiter app updating, and flip between them easily. Now, I know that the average user isn't going to have the 10 or 12 windows I leave open on my Palm Pre + all the time, but the people I know who own them who are NOT geeks love the UI and mutter and mumble angrily when they're confined to android and Ios phones.

HP has a lot of work to do to get that fact into the publics mind, but webOS is by far the most USABLE portable operating system in the world. Is it somewhat short of apps as of today? Yep. Is it worth the effort? Yep.

Re:Premature to write off Microsoft (1)

mobets (101759) | more than 3 years ago | (#34912496)

Press and hold the home key to see the last 8 apps accessed. There is probably an app that add radio switches to the status bar.

Re:Premature to write off Microsoft (4, Interesting)

Yoshamano (1424781) | more than 3 years ago | (#34911254)

As a happy Palm Pre owner I wanted to echo the parent's view on webOS. A friend of mine who just recently switched from a Pre to an EVO comments on how tight the core OS is on the Pre compared to his EVO. He'd still be using his Pre if the hardware wasn't sub-par and the app selection wasn't lacking.

All of this reminds me a lot of BeOS. Superior from a technical standpoint. Lacking a development base and userbase coupled with market forces working strongly against it.

Hopefully webOS 2.0 (or in my case, 2.1) and the Palm Pre 2 are where webOS's and BeOS's stories part ways. If not, I imagine these things will resemble BeOS R5, an amazing piece of software far ahead of its time that quickly morphed into Be Inc.'s swan song.

Re:Premature to write off Microsoft (3, Insightful)

node 3 (115640) | more than 3 years ago | (#34911274)

It's hardly encouraging when the top thing one can come up with in praise of WebOS is that it has a great task switcher.

Re:Premature to write off Microsoft (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34911566)

The fact that it needed a task manager (to switch among multiple running tasks) already makes it better than iOS at the time (and by that I mean the time when some people were mentioning WebOS a bit)

Re:Premature to write off Microsoft (1)

node 3 (115640) | more than 3 years ago | (#34911804)

Only in one particular way, almost a year ago. Are you trying to find a way to heap even weaker praise on WebOS than Junta did?

Re:Premature to write off Microsoft (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34912250)

Nope, I'm not really a fan of it myself. And thanks for pointing out that it was almost a year ago. I couldn't remember exactly how long it's been, so I just said "at the time," but now I know it was almost a year ago.

Re:Premature to write off Microsoft (1)

node 3 (115640) | more than 3 years ago | (#34912674)

The point being it's not now. Ergo, not relevant to WebOS's current value, as opposed to its historical value.

Might as well laud PalmOS over WP7, given how much better it was than WinCE at the time...

Re:Premature to write off Microsoft (1)

LurkerXXX (667952) | more than 3 years ago | (#34910542)

Why? What does it offer?

An excellent user experience.

Re:Premature to write off Microsoft (2)

SuperKendall (25149) | more than 3 years ago | (#34911040)

Honestly Junta gave a much better explanation that I could. But I wanted to add one thing...

I always thought there was room for a number of different mobile OS experiences. But to me Android and iOS are, from a user standpoint, rather similar... what I liked about WebOS was that in did in fact seem to have some very different ideas. So my support of WebOS is based on wanting to see variety in a mobile ecosystem, instead of convergence to a single GUI standard.

Re:Premature to write off Microsoft (3, Insightful)

jcr (53032) | more than 3 years ago | (#34910862)

>Microsoft still has a lot of money to throw at vendors

Frankly, I think MS really shot themselves in the foot with that "Zune" business, because it showed all the vendors who were participating in the "plays for sure" program that MS would drop them like a rock if they found it convenient to do so. If you're a handset maker today, and your options are Windows phone 7 or Android, what is there that MS brings to the table? You get to pay MS for the software, and get what? The halo effect of jumping on a bandwagon that stalled out years ago?

-jcr

Re:Premature to write off Microsoft (2)

SuperKendall (25149) | more than 3 years ago | (#34911026)

You get to pay MS for the software, and get what?

A billion dollar check?

Just sayin'.

Microsoft already has relationships with a lot of these hardware makers and can probably lean on them to achieve parity with Android. I agree it seems like they might not have much to offer technically over Android, but they have some many tentacles in everything they can use to get in the right places...

Re:Premature to write off Microsoft (2)

alvinrod (889928) | more than 3 years ago | (#34912082)

If you're HTC and had to come to some form of arrangement [linuxfordevices.com] with Microsoft over the patens Microsoft alleged HTC was infringing upon, it might not actually be any cheaper to put Android on your handsets. Now that HTC is taken care of, they've started going after other big Android manufacturers [wsj.com] .

Re:Premature to write off Microsoft (1)

h4rr4r (612664) | more than 3 years ago | (#34911142)

Even out?

No Fucking way. This is MS doing the only thing they can anymore rent-seek. WP7 is stillborn.

Re:Premature to write off Microsoft (2)

NicknamesAreStupid (1040118) | more than 3 years ago | (#34911738)

I've been saying this for a year -- Microsoft buys RIM in Q4 2011 for $30B. Remember, you heard it here first.

He's off in some strange place (5, Insightful)

chriso11 (254041) | more than 3 years ago | (#34910310)

Here's an idea: HP can buy Windows Phone 7 from Microsoft for its nice UI and graft that onto WebOS's core -- after modernizing the core, of course.

First off, bad idea, and second, WebOS already has a modern core.

Re:He's off in some strange place (1)

bhartman34 (886109) | more than 3 years ago | (#34910468)

Here's an idea: HP can buy Windows Phone 7 from Microsoft for its nice UI and graft that onto WebOS's core -- after modernizing the core, of course.

First off, bad idea, and second, WebOS already has a modern core.

Absolutely! Not only does WebOS have a modern core, but it's also got a beautiful UI, in my opinion. What possible benefit could there be of creating some FrankenOS? (Palm users already suffered through that with Garnet.)

Re:He's off in some strange place (4, Interesting)

Junta (36770) | more than 3 years ago | (#34910566)

It gets worse as it goes. So first we say they need WP7 UI (which is the last UI I'd envy) on webOS core, but modernized (basically claiming the core is good, but not good at all... internally inconsistent), then goes on to say how HP needs to get away from Microsoft (the recommendation to 'buy' Windows Phone 7 UI seems to fly directly in the face of that.

What HP has to do is simple, and it might be too late. They need to release hardware that actually is on par with the industry (still no autofocus notably, and somewhat underpowerd CPU/GPU) and they need to basically continue the vision that was getting better on software (the HTML+Javascript *only* api was a disaster). With the brain-drain that obviously followed in the months after the acquisition, the webOS platform may be unsalvagable (*particularly* with a new CEO at HP pretty much explicitly saying the consumer space is less interesting).

Gems from the article (2)

the linux geek (799780) | more than 3 years ago | (#34910314)

"Throw in the lack of apps (the PlayBook uses a new OS acquired from QNX, so developers must start over again) and the too-small seven-inch screen (which limits the kind of apps and data you can work with effectively), and you can see why the PlayBook doesn't appear all that compelling."

Sorry, but no. PlayBook is compatible with BBOS 6 software. And interestingly, the article doesn't complain about all the 7" Android tablets.

"If HP's hope is to leverage WebOS for its post-PC transition, it needs to stake that ground soon, while there is still ground to be claimed."

Post-PC? Please.

"Let's hope so because the smartphone and tablet market doesn't need another OS. WebOS would have to undergo major transformation to get any attention; WebOS 2.0 as demonstrated certainly won't do the trick. (Here's an idea: HP can buy Windows Phone 7 from Microsoft for its nice UI and graft that onto WebOS's core -- after modernizing the core, of course.)"

Doesn't need another OS? That market was crowded when Android arrived. I also have to question why porting the WP7 UI to a Linux kernel makes it inherently better.

Re:Gems from the article (1)

Junta (36770) | more than 3 years ago | (#34910590)

Post-PC? Please.

From a business perspective, that may not be too crazy. Not because PCs/Laptops are dropping in popularity, but because new purchases are starting to decline (i.e. more and more people replace when broken instead of replace just to be faster). I do not believe people are throwing out their laptops and desktops and switching all over to TVs, Phones, Tablets, and so forth, but the business world becomes quickly disinterested in a market of markedly lower new sales.

Re:Gems from the article (1)

lushdog (900805) | more than 3 years ago | (#34912640)

Sorry, but no. PlayBook is compatible with BBOS 6 software.

Source please?

huh? (0)

Charliemopps (1157495) | more than 3 years ago | (#34910318)

I agree that Microsoft is dead in the mobile arena... but Palm is doing better? Palms basically been dead since 2000, before they even entered the mobile phone market. The fact that anyone paid money for their garbage OS is amazing. Then, to say that they are somehow ahead of Windows phones? At least Microsoft can trick people into thinking their phone will work better with their home PC or something. Palm just has absolutely nothing going for them.

Re:huh? (1)

bhartman34 (886109) | more than 3 years ago | (#34910500)

That's not true. Palm had a good UI going for them, and a lot of the early press for the hardware design of the Pre was positive. Where they screwed the pooch was their ad campaign, some quality control issues early on in the release, and in being slow to release the SDK.

Re:huh? (2)

Junta (36770) | more than 3 years ago | (#34910626)

The fact that anyone paid money for their garbage OS is amazing

If you are referring to WebOS, the technical merits are tremendous. The only phone on the market with a sane interaction for managing running applications. Blackberry seems to be looking to change that, but most others either still avoid real multitasking or make no intuitively obvious representation that makes clear the difference between running, suspended, or closed applications.

I'm still a webOS fan, and will give it a chance to keep me in their February announcement, though I am afraid that HP completely missed the point and caused a whole lot of brain drain that could very well sink whatever slim chance webOS has.

Re:huh? (1)

LurkerXXX (667952) | more than 3 years ago | (#34910796)

Blackberry seems to be looking to copy that,

There, fixed that for ya.

His analysis is off (1)

Wamoc (1263324) | more than 3 years ago | (#34910366)

His analysis of what is going on is a bit off. Microsoft and Nokia are still mattering. WebOS was a pretty good phone OS, but with one small brand using it, things never took off. Blackberry OS was always a piece of garbage, but it still is widely used because of the quantity of devices that run it. There is also the fact that many users are just used to it and swear by Blackberries. I wouldn't say it is crunch time for RIM, but they do need to do something to be seen by the masses as a viable phone OS again.

Re:His analysis is off (1)

nxtw (866177) | more than 3 years ago | (#34910550)

Blackberry OS was always a piece of garbage, but it still is widely used because of the quantity of devices that run it. There is also the fact that many users are just used to it and swear by Blackberries.

Don't you think BlackBerry got so popular for a reason?

The amount of enterprise features available is simply not surpassed by any other device. Windows Mobile was getting closer and closer to BlackBerry with WM 6.1 and 6.5, but even Microsoft's own Windows Phone 7 is missing a lot of the enterprise features from WM 6.5.

Re:His analysis is off (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34910764)

Name them.

The real fact of thew matter is that the "Enterprise features" are not driven by the handset itself, but the backend management. And in this, Blackberry are going to have a world of pain as the backend is where ActiveSync phones are making IT staff lives much MUCH easier. You look at the average BES and then at now what Exchange 2010 can do and the featureset is very similar - Exchange wins because it's much easier to work with.

IT staff hate Blackberrys with a passion for how fucked up they are to work with, ActiveSync devices on the other hand..... RIM have got to look at the ease of ActiveSync and realise their shit BES is going to be the death of them

Re:His analysis is off (1)

nxtw (866177) | more than 3 years ago | (#34910818)

The real fact of thew matter is that the "Enterprise features" are not driven by the handset itself, but the backend management. And in this, Blackberry are going to have a world of pain as the backend is where ActiveSync phones are making IT staff lives much MUCH easier. You look at the average BES and then at now what Exchange 2010 can do and the featureset is very similar - Exchange wins because it's much easier to work with.

Lots of those nice ActiveSync features go away when using Windows Phone 7 [microsoft.com] . You have to use an old device (Windows Mobile 6.5) to get all of them. At this point, I think even the iPhone supports more features than WP7...

Re:His analysis is off (1)

h4rr4r (612664) | more than 3 years ago | (#34911186)

No one said WP7 was the way to go. iPhone and Android support most of these features and are adding more with each Rev of their OSes.

Re:His analysis is off (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34912738)

That, and, not everyone uses Exchange, honest!

I am a consultant, and so travel around to a lot of large companies. The number that use Lotus Notes is staggering. Notes has applications besides mail/calendar, (and you can develop more) and handles synchronization, redundancy, and *especially* encryption and malware resistance much better.

The fact that you can develop databases/applications using notes means that a lot of things that don't fit well to a web interface can be done easily, offline. Also, since the mail database is just a template, it can be customized more than MS Exchange can. Also, it's cross platform, running on Windows, AIX, Lunix, etc., and of course different types of hardware. (The client is also available for Windows, Mac, and other).

If I have noticed a trend, it's that the larger a company is, the more likely it is to be using Lotus Notes instead of MS Exchange. This is why it cracked me up when Apple added half-assed MS Exchange support to the iPhone and called it "Enterprise ready". (Note that some companies still use Novell Groupwise).

Since BES has their own server, they don't need to care too much whether you are running Exchange, Notes, or something else.

Maemo and MeeGo (3, Interesting)

TAiNiUM (66843) | more than 3 years ago | (#34910382)

As if Maemo and MeeGo have already died? Maemo has a very active open source community and, even though MeeGo will supplant it, will live on for a long time.

Re:Maemo and MeeGo (1)

TAiNiUM (66843) | more than 3 years ago | (#34910420)

Quick summary on that since few people are mentioning these.

Maemo has been around for a few years and is sometimes called Debian on a phone. Most people run it on a Nokia n900.

MeeGo is the newer version of the OS that Nokia is partnering with Intel to create. The Nokia n9 should be out in a few months with other handsets to follow.

Re:Maemo and MeeGo (2)

the linux geek (799780) | more than 3 years ago | (#34911140)

I use Maemo (Internet Tablet OS 2008, technically) on an N810, and it is good. It uses a touch-optimized GNOME variant (Hildon) as its UI, and it works really well. The really cool part of it is that, unlike Android, it can run any ARM Linux application, including the entire Debian repository. Also, performance is very good - in a couple unscientific tests at work, Flash and general web performance were pretty similar between the N810 (128MB RAM, 400MHz ARM11) and a Samsung Galaxy S running Android 2.2 (1GHz Cortex A8, 512MB RAM).

Re:Maemo and MeeGo (1)

RyuuzakiTetsuya (195424) | more than 3 years ago | (#34910630)

When the Motorola RAZR dropped in '03, the OS mimicked Symbian. In fact, until the iPhone, most everyone was playing a game of copy that UI and everyone targeted Symbian. Except RIM(who got mimicked by Google with Android(look up the original reference designs), and Microsoft.

The fact that the N8 and the N97 and other Nokia phones(and Android phones) have aped the iPhone form factor means that yes, Nokia doesn't matter.

Will they be the biggest? Maybe. But will they be the most profitable(no, and they aren't by a long shot)? What innovations will they bring to the mobile world that Android or Apple won't?

The Ovi Store says it all. Gruber's take [daringfireball.net] says it all. Nokia might not be done selling smart phones, but they're not the market leader anymore and probably will never be again.

Re:Maemo and MeeGo (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34910934)

Apple didn't invent the iPhone form factor.

You don't seem to know the Symbian platform pretty well. From an application point of view, yes, it might be behind (less useless apps, true), but from HW and features/protocols/etc., Symbian has always lead innovation. Ok, the UI revolution has been brought by Apple in the smartphone market. What's new since then ? Nice phone design. Ok. Some features. Ok. No more revolutions.

Years ago, many people thought that Apple could hardly be a leader again...

Re:Maemo and MeeGo (1)

RyuuzakiTetsuya (195424) | more than 3 years ago | (#34912450)

Symbian MAY have lead innovation, but not anymore.

What has Symbian done that's been beneficial to the mobile ecosystem SINCE iOS dropped?

Maybe there's nothing new for mobile for now.

Re:Maemo and MeeGo (1)

exomondo (1725132) | more than 3 years ago | (#34911246)

The fact that the N8 and the N97 and other Nokia phones(and Android phones) have aped the iPhone form factor

The iPhone form factor?

Re:Maemo and MeeGo (1)

RyuuzakiTetsuya (195424) | more than 3 years ago | (#34912486)

Seriously. [engadget.com]

"If there is something good in the world then we copy with pride."

Re:Maemo and MeeGo (1)

exomondo (1725132) | more than 3 years ago | (#34912786)

Seriously. [engadget.com]

"If there is something good in the world then we copy with pride."

No, i mean what is the 'iPhone form factor'? As far as i can see the iPhone didn't bring anything new in terms of form factor.

Re:Maemo and MeeGo (1)

RyuuzakiTetsuya (195424) | more than 3 years ago | (#34913026)

Candy bar, all screen, no physical keyboard, as few buttons as possible, *touch* not stylus

Yes, there were phones that did some of this, but, before the iPhone, the Android reference design looked like a Black Berry. Nokia wasn't doing a similar looking phone.

Coke wasn't the first cola drink. Not by a long shot. But since Coke? They owned the Cola drink.

Re:Maemo and MeeGo (1)

node 3 (115640) | more than 3 years ago | (#34911412)

As if Maemo and MeeGo have already died? Maemo has a very active open source community and, even though MeeGo will supplant it, will live on for a long time.

It doesn't matter if it has an active open source community. What matters is whether it has an active user community, in the context of how it's doing compared with Android and iOS.

Small Window of Opportunity For WebOS (5, Insightful)

bhartman34 (886109) | more than 3 years ago | (#34910432)

Frankly, I think RIM has ceded the market to Android and iOS. The Torch should've been a remarkable device to keep up with the pack, but it wasn't even as technically impressive as the Palm Pre and WebOS (which is getting a bit stale since we've been waiting for the 2.0 update).

\

WebOS has a chance, but it's a small one. I've been a big Palm fan since the Palm Pilot II, and was ecstatic when they released the Pre, as it was technically and hardware-wise right up there with the best of 'em (albeit a bit skimpy on the display size). But my high hopes were predicated on the idea that they'd get lots of developers to pump out apps, and they'd follow up the Pre with an even better device. Well, the first half of the Pre ad campaign was a joke -- and not a very good one. Subsequently, Palm saw a lot of initial sales, followed with...silence. The campaign failed to bring the masses, and because the masses stayed away, the developers stayed away. (It also didn't help that they took so long to release the SDK, and still don't have all the relevant APIs out, as far as I'm aware).

HP needs to hit this one out of the park for WebOS to stay alive. I think that's going to mean:

  • A hardware refresh, including a Droid-sized device or devices
  • That tablet they're working on had better have top-notch specs, or they shouldn't even bother with it.
  • Immediate release of all relevant APIs, so that developers have no problem working with the hardware

Killing off Classic, IMO, isn't a great sign. They seem to be betting the farm that they'll pull new developers in, but Classic was a way to lure the Palm faithful over (or at least keep the ones you had.) I'm going to be watching the announcement carefully, but I have a sneaking suspicion that when my contract on this phone is up, I'm going to be getting an Android phone.

Re:Small Window of Opportunity For WebOS (2)

mlingojones (919531) | more than 3 years ago | (#34910580)

Mod the parent up, it's a great assessment of everything that Palm and HP did wrong with webOS.

As an early Pre adopter, I was ecstatic when HP bought Palm, because they have deep enough pockets to splurge on the desperately-needed R&D that Palm couldn't afford. Instead one of their executives said that their goal "wasn't to enter the smartphone game" and that they bought Palm for the IP and to put webOS on printers. True enough, since then there have been zero compelling developments in the webOS world.

HP and Palm need to come up with something crazy if they want to keep me (and the parent, and probably many others) from switching to other platforms.

Re:Small Window of Opportunity For WebOS (2)

GilliamOS (1313019) | more than 3 years ago | (#34910622)

When I got my Pre in July 2009, I thought it was light years ahead of Apple and Android on the intuitiveness and on many levels, it still is. The card system is bliss, the notification system is easy to use, understand, and operate, and the OS never crashed. The Touchstone will always be my favorite perph as I could assign any number of macros to my phone when I placed it on to disable data and notifications for nighttime when I didn't need to be bothered with emails. Where they failed is in hardware. The original Pre should've been the Pre Plus, with the next step being something even bigger and better than what the Pre 2 is. It's too little, too late, and they will be irrelevant by 2012. We were promised Flash support by February *last* year, the app catalog is a failure in many fronts, and the overall build quality of the device left a lot to be desired. Oh, and if you plan on using your device after you transfer the service to a new phone, you have to cripple the device beyond use to use it. No more OTA updates, even over WiFi, no app catalog at all, and no calls ever again. Stupid.

Re:Small Window of Opportunity For WebOS (1)

bhartman34 (886109) | more than 3 years ago | (#34912762)

Other than the build quality (and that was only in the original batches), I don't think the hardware on the original Pre was inadequate. About the only real deficit the original Pre had was a lack of an expansion slot. That I know of, no one was pooh-poohing the actual hardware specs at the time. The problem was the follow-up. If they'd released the Pre Plus around the time they released the Pixi, that would've been something to see. Instead, they released the Pixi, which many people just saw as the "Pre Minus". The other way to handle it would've been to release the Pixi first, and then the Pre. But what ended up happening was you had the Pre, then a step down with the Pixi, and then a long wait for the Pre Plus. And it was the Pre Plus that really fell flat, because it didn't sufficiently improve the Pre. And then, as if to add insult to injury, the Pre 2 doesn't have the kick-ass hardware that even should've been on the Pre Plus.

Upgrading to WebOS 2.0 is nice and all, but adding Flash and some UI enhancements is no substitute for a real hardware refresh (rather than just throwing more memory at the problem) and well-documented APIs.

Re:Small Window of Opportunity For WebOS (1)

sunfly (1248694) | more than 3 years ago | (#34911892)

Frankly, I think RIM has ceded the market to Android and iOS.

I think they were just so far ahead in market share, their management was overconfident. They did purchase QNX, so perhaps the giant has finally awoke?

Re:Small Window of Opportunity For WebOS (1)

bhartman34 (886109) | more than 3 years ago | (#34912660)

Maybe. I just don't see it as a good sign that they'd release something like the Torch. It sounds like the PlayBook is a good conender, if it ever gets out the door, but they need to step up their smartphone game.

The reporter 'GMGruman' is myopic! It's sad indeed (5, Insightful)

bogaboga (793279) | more than 3 years ago | (#34910504)

The submitter is myopic in my opinion and here's why:

When he writes statements like...

Meanwhile, it's been an Apple iOS and Google Android show at CES 2011, in the popular press, and in customers' hands. (Microsoft and Nokia essentially ceased to matter by Christmas 2010.)

...one wonders whether he's just ignorant or just tired. Let me educate him. The USA is not the world and neither does it represent it. Nokia is still the largest smartphone manufacturer in the world, and it's this manufacturer that he labels `cease to matter!`

Any tech person knows that it's not wise to underestimate Microsoft. They are still at the party though no one notices. Sincerely, I feel his conclusions are premature.

Re:The reporter 'GMGruman' is myopic! It's sad ind (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34911178)

Even better ... what did iOS do at the show ?

Everything (1)

SuperKendall (25149) | more than 3 years ago | (#34912360)

Even better ... what did iOS do at the show ?

Launched on Verizon and became universal.

A juicy rumor.. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34910564)

I hear that RIM is preparing "Blackberry for iPhone".

webOS has a chance (1)

El Royo (907295) | more than 3 years ago | (#34910612)

I'll be attending HP's Feb. 9th announcement as well as their developer shindig that follows that night. I expect that HP will have something surprising to show us. We're all expecting the tablet we've been promised. And, we're expecting the next generation of smartphones. Also, a formal launch of their Enyo cross-platform development platform. All those things will, of course, be well received by the Palm faithful. It's the surprise that's in store which I think will make or break webOS.

I could be off-base here but I think those rooting for webOS will be pleased on the 9th. I don't think it's too late to relaunch this ship. If you'd like to see some live coverage of the events, tune in to webOSroundup [webosroundup.com] .

What is he smoking? (3, Insightful)

walshy007 (906710) | more than 3 years ago | (#34910618)

Nokia ceases to matter? Bullshit, they sell more phones than everyone else there combined. To write them off as a phone manufacturer is a big call.

Nokia may not be doing well in smart phones, but comparatively feature phones make smart phones look like a drop in the bucket.

Re:What is he smoking? (2)

dangitman (862676) | more than 3 years ago | (#34911206)

Nokia may not be doing well in smart phones, but comparatively feature phones make smart phones look like a drop in the bucket.

In raw sales numbers, perhaps. But they don't make very much profit at all. Smartphones are where the money is to be made, both by manufacturers and service providers.

Take a break! (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34910740)

This has been analyzed more thoroughly than you have, just stop. You are wasting everyones time, it will all be resolved within a year or two.

Nokia totally ceased to matter... (5, Interesting)

drolli (522659) | more than 3 years ago | (#34910786)

I saw that when i was in China and Indonesia.

What kind of stupid article is that?

Nokia's market share for smartphones may be dropping but that is happening since they started to sell the Nokia 9000 communicator (Yes that thing could send email at a time when most people may just have heard of the net). Nokia is always having a few trial phones (e.g. the Nokia 9000 was one) to figure out if it works well, and then may decide for a radical switch in the second model (e,g, the 9210 switch to symbian), or trash the series. They have done that now with the N800/N900, so i think they will now pack the experiences frome these devices into a new one. The fact that some often sold symbian phones do not qualify as smart phones is no reason to write the platform off prematurely. I also have an Android device and i like it; however some things, e.g. the "everthing need to be linked to your gmail accocunt" idea to work correctly (e.g. sync/backup) is a little exaggerated. I already discovered some annoying things which my Nokia E61 from End of 2006 does, but my Android 2.2 device doesnt (connecting to an ad-hoc wireless network, using the PC via USB to conenct to the net - and yes there are situations when i dont need additional complications, namely when travelling. The E61 i still use connetc to everything to which it can connect).

I believe that meego paired with the philosophy of Nokia not to try to fuck the customer by forcing him into specific solutions but to just give the device all capabilities for connections which can be imagined will serve well. After seeing the many ways in which apple fucks the customers and google believe that they are not evil, i prefer companies selling me hardware (opposed to thinking of the Software they can put on the Hardware to "advertise" their services to me (or, in the case of Apple: force-feed me).

QNX (3, Informative)

frank249 (100528) | more than 3 years ago | (#34911086)

Blackberry OS6 is only a placeholder until they port QNX [wikipedia.org] to their smartphones. Blackberry bought QNX last April and there are rumours that the new storm 3 will run on QNX [itproportal.com] . Blackberry already has QNX running on the Playbook. Full multitasking with flash support on a dual core processor. It will be an interesting year but RIM is not preparing to fade away.

Yep- too late (1)

markdavis (642305) | more than 3 years ago | (#34911266)

>Is it too late for WebOS and BlackBerry?

Yep. It is too late. BlackBerry will do OK for a while. Once perfected, WebOS Linux was fantastic. Great design, a pleasure to use, root for everyone, good UI, *great* "card" multitasking interface, lots of hackability. But it took too long to get to market, too long to debug, too long to spread to other carriers, was coupled with weak hardware, and not enough consumer choices. Had a few of those been addressed, it could have been a major player. But now it is too late. There are things I greatly miss from it when I moved to Android Linux.

BlackBerry is doing the right things (4, Interesting)

Deviant (1501) | more than 3 years ago | (#34911562)

I think that it is premature to rule out BlackBerry. I work in IT consulting and I saw many executives try an iPhone and end up going back to BlackBerry because they were just so fast/fluent with the devices. They had a button on the one side set to the calendar and another set to the email and knew all the keyboard shortcuts and it was truly amazing to see how quickly they could get things done. Not to mention that with BES (which they are now giving away for free to organisations under 2000 devices - which I imagine is the vast majority) you can do things like invite attendees to appointments in particular meeting rooms, see their availability and the rooms when scheduling the appointment, etc which are not possible with ActiveSync and particularly not with the iPhone. The enterprise features like being able to force policies which can configure pretty much every setting on the device, wirelessly deploy apps and updates, etc are pretty unrivalled as well.

I personally had a Moto Q9H WM6.1 device until I got my iPhone 3G and I was happy with the iPhone until I was given a company issued Torch at my new job. I am impressed - it is a great really solid and well constructed device compared with my iPhone 3G with nearly as good webkit browser, a better screen, better battery life, more RAM, great multitasking, a great 5 megapixel camera with flash, just as good Facebook and LinkedIn apps and with the above described better Exchange interaction via the company BES server it is a great product for me. I like the fact that it has both the touchscreen and a trackpad as moving the cursor around an email or a mouse cursor around a web page are sometimes better than tapping/holding on the touch-screen (though it can do that too). I like the fact it shows up like a USB disk when attached to a PC and I can just drop music and video files onto that drive and it just works for indexing/playing - even things like OGG/Divx which never worked with the iPhone unless you re-encoded them. I am sure future versions when they get their QNX OS and a higher-res screen and faster processor etc will be even better.

I am waited with great anticipation for the next generation of BlackBerry. The current generation will work just fine for me until then and I don't really miss the iPhone. The Torch is doing what it needed to do - keep their existing customers happy with a solid device better than a iPhone 3G/3GS this generation while they pull a rabbit out of the hat next one which should really be a contender...

Strategy vs. Product (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#34912782)

Releasing a strategy vs. releasing a product (Apple, Google, etc)... hmmm should hire Yoda "do or do not"

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