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Ruby Dropped In Netbeans 7

timothy posted more than 3 years ago | from the other-shoe-dropping dept.

Programming 140

An anonymous reader writes "Ruby/RoR in NetBeans made headlines three years ago, but after Sun was acquired by Oracle there where fears that support for dynamic languages would suffer, as this IDE would be downsized. This has become a reality, since as of version 7, NetBeans will no longer support Ruby."

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140 comments

Ruby (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35040804)

It's a dead language I'd always say.

Re:Ruby (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35040880)

From the "fine" summary:

but after Sun was acquired by Oracle there where fears that support for dynamic languages would suffer

(emphasis added)

Congratulations, Timothy! You have all the editorial and proofreading skills of the average ghetto welfare recipient. Way to double-check something before you submit it to an audience of millions, you professional!

If I see just one month without egregious spelling and grammatical errors on the main page, I'll seriously consider a paid subscription. Until then, it's free account + Adblock Plus. Respect is earned.

Who cares? (1)

Dishwasha (125561) | more than 3 years ago | (#35040808)

Anybody who programs in Ruby/RoR uses either vi or Rubymine.

Re:Who cares? (1)

lsdi (1585395) | more than 3 years ago | (#35040828)

Textmate, aptana, viM. I've seen some heroes using emacs also. Rubymine is just a piece of bloated junk, created by java-minded people.

Re:Who cares? (1)

hedwards (940851) | more than 3 years ago | (#35040888)

Anybody who can get emacs running on a contemporary machine is clearly a hero.

Re:Who cares? (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35040920)

Anybody who can get emacs running on a contemporary machine is clearly a hero.

user@host$ sudo $PKG_TOOL $INSTALL_OPTS emacs && emacs
?

Re:Who cares? (2)

Lanteran (1883836) | more than 3 years ago | (#35041156)

I use slackware you insensitive clod! I'm guessing its a poke at the *ubermassive* memory requirements of *16* MB RAM. To GP, It's OK, you can crawl out from under the rock. The war is over and we all use cat now, as men once did.

Re:Who cares? (1)

Saija (1114681) | more than 3 years ago | (#35040830)

yeah, i was thinking the same, using netbeans to edit ruby is a little overkill

Re:Who cares? (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35041080)

if your idea of programming is "editing" a couple of "scripts", then you're not a programmer.

Re:Who cares? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35041110)

If your idea of programming is using a complex IDE, then you're not a Ruby programmer.

Re:Who cares? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35041142)

Ok... the world is currently made up of:

Ruby programmers... 0.0000000000000000000000001%
non-Ruby programmes... 99.999999999999999999999%

I'm in good company to be honest.

Re:Who cares? (3, Insightful)

tsm_sf (545316) | more than 3 years ago | (#35041290)

if your idea of programming is "editing" a couple of "scripts", then you're not a programmer.

This little religious war gets trotted out every few months, and it always devolves into one final comment to the effect that if you're not using a sewing needle and a lodestone to flip the ones and zeroes manually then you're an effete momma's boy.

Wanting something to be harder than it needs to be doesn't make you a professional or a "true" anything, it makes you a masochist.

Re:Who cares? (2)

EsbenMoseHansen (731150) | more than 3 years ago | (#35042126)

Wanting something to be harder than it needs to be doesn't make you a professional or a "true" anything, it makes you a masochist.

Indeed, but people usually don't want things to be harder than it needs to be, they just don't want change.

Re:Who cares? (0)

SanityInAnarchy (655584) | more than 3 years ago | (#35040834)

Seems like most people use TextMate. This sucks, but I have to agree. There are plenty of tools that work well enough with Ruby.

It does, however, fuel my hatred for Oracle.

Re:Who cares? (1)

EsbenMoseHansen (731150) | more than 3 years ago | (#35042134)

It does, however, fuel my hatred for Oracle.

My hatred was already maxed out for the null/empty-string screwup. I fail to see how it could get worse ;)

Re:Who cares? (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35040860)

Depends on your deployment environment. If your environment is Glassfish with JRuby as your runtime, Netbeans is a wonderful, logical choice as it has one-click deployment to Glassfish instances.

Re:Who cares? (4, Insightful)

julioody (867484) | more than 3 years ago | (#35040884)

Once again showing that using the demographic you're in as sample leads to bad conclusions more often than not.

Re:Who cares? (1)

mysidia (191772) | more than 3 years ago | (#35040898)

Anybody who programs in Ruby/RoR uses either vi or Rubymine.

I use Notepad++ and TextMate for RoR coding.

Re:Who cares? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35041266)

If you like TextMate more than Notepad++ you should check out e text editor. It's a TextMate clone for Windows. Functions almost identically and uses the same bundles.

Re:Who cares? (0, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35040968)

Who cares? Anyone who programs in Ruby/RoR is a moron.

Sorry it's a still-born language. It has constantly suffered from performance issues. I was a Ruby developer back in the beginning when nobody had heard of it (well before RoR) and that mantra was "we can fix the performance later"... Well it's later and the performance still sucks.

You can't completely ignore performance when writing software. It's very difficult to shoehorn in later.

Re:Who cares? (1)

lsdi (1585395) | more than 3 years ago | (#35041586)

I have an application handling 32 transactions/second without any problems in RoR. (financial industry). Thing is, newbies don't have a clue about handling high demanding applications. This application was migrated from Java/Struts + JSF, we had no problems at all. 90%+ of our hardware is used by Oracle 11g, not RoR.
Processing a .html.erb is way faster than a Spring MVC view, full of XML crap that takes forever to parse. Add EJB3 to that, full of RTTI and reflection...

Re:Who cares? (2, Insightful)

Nadaka (224565) | more than 3 years ago | (#35041672)

32 transactions a second... wow. Impressive.

I am only required to be able to support 60 thousand simultaneous transactions in the software I develop.

Re:Who cares? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35041810)

So you are comparing

"32 transactions a second"

to

"60 thousand simulataneous transactions"

Your units are mismatched. I think you are a bad programmer.

Re:Who cares? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35042042)

He was talking per second as well.

Re:Who cares? (2)

wzzzzrd (886091) | more than 3 years ago | (#35041734)

Pretty clueless you are. 32 TX/s ? That's nothing. I think I can guess what your "financial industry" is. And throwing JSP/ Spring/ WhateverFrontEndStuff in the same pot with EJB makes you even more clueless. Ever heard of separation of concerns? Frontend - Middleware - Backend? An EJB3 middleware app connected to a cobol backend (that's the setup most banks and insurance companies use) can easily handle thousands of asynchronous TX per second on common server hardware.

RoR has it's place, even in the financial world, but that place is the front end, delivering HTML or whatever. But it never touches a backend system without going through middleware, you would be crazy to do that.

Re:Who cares? (2)

pmontra (738736) | more than 3 years ago | (#35041538)

Exactly. I'm fine as long as emacs doesn't drop support for Ruby :-) I tried to use Netbeans and other IDEs but I never liked all the clutter around the code window. I use them only for Java when the customer forces me to.

Oracle Software (4, Insightful)

Nerdfest (867930) | more than 3 years ago | (#35040822)

I used to like NetBeans at least as much as Eclipse, but with Oracle in charge, I'm not sure I can trust the future of anything from them that's free.

Re:Oracle Software (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35040876)

Meh, Eclipse is just...meh.. it'll take awhile for even Oracle's black-thumb to wilt NetBeans until it's worse than Eclipse. Though it's probably a matter of when and not if.

Re:Oracle Software (1)

johanmynhardt (1011859) | more than 3 years ago | (#35041024)

No Eclipse, no Netbeans? Ya well, there's IntelliJ Idea which I prefer to both Eclipse and Netbeans. I don't get why people insist on having "one-click" deployment, I thought that's what build tools are for? Maven fits the profile just right :D

Re:Oracle Software (1)

akeeneye (1788292) | more than 3 years ago | (#35041178)

I'm equally comfortable with Eclipse and Netbeans. I just discovered that IntelliJ has a free "community edition" now. I've played around with it some and it appears to be pretty decent. It NB starts to suck ass, there are plenty of options. With the Play! web framework (Java, Scala) an IDE is a convenience but far from necessary, as there are no (visible) compilation steps, no builds to be done, just edit, save, reload.

Re:Oracle Software (1)

equex (747231) | more than 3 years ago | (#35041928)

I don't see what's wrong with Eclipse, although its best used for Java development. There's other plugins for lots of languages but they seem not to have as many features compared to the 'native Java mode'.

Re:Oracle Software (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35041172)

s/ that's free//

Re:Oracle Software (1)

Daniel Phillips (238627) | more than 3 years ago | (#35041474)

I used to like NetBeans at least as much as Eclipse, but with Oracle in charge, I'm not sure I can trust the future of anything from them that's free.

Oracle's pay-for stuff is also teh suck. Have you ever used Oracle enterprise apps? Cruel and unusual punishment. The only half decent product Oracle makes is a database which has a good reputation for reliability, but PostgreSQL is catching up fast in performance and features, and doesn't cost the extortionate price Oracle asks. With luck, Oracle will soon be in shrink zone just like its evil twin in Redmond, which seems to be trying to emulate.

Re:Oracle Software (2)

1s44c (552956) | more than 3 years ago | (#35041662)

I used to like NetBeans at least as much as Eclipse, but with Oracle in charge, I'm not sure I can trust the future of anything from them that's free.

I would not trust them with the non-free stuff either. I have a bunch of Sun servers running Solaris 10. They work great but I'm not counting on ever buying new ones or using Solaris 11 should it ever turn up. Oracle are gutting sun, wrecking everything it was good at. By the time they finish they will realize they have nothing of value left because they destroyed it all. Sun customers now have the choice between expensive pain with oracle or cheap freedom with open source.

Re:Oracle Software (2)

squiggleslash (241428) | more than 3 years ago | (#35042038)

I've always preferred NetBeans to Eclipse (in the same way that I'd prefer to be beaten with a baseball bat around the knees rather than the head), but those of us who prefer the environment have always been in a minority - the mindshare is with Eclipse and generally if you start to develop in any technology, there's normally an official Eclipse plug-in for it but only some blog posts and half finished third party plug-in projects to support Netbeans development - the exception being most Sun/Oracle Java technologies.

The problem with that is that unlike, say, OpenOffice.org, there's very little chance that there'll be a successful fork to pull NetBeans away from Oracle. There aren't enough non-Oracle people who depend on the environment and can't switch away if they have to.

What one has to hope for is that there'll be a reaction to Eclipse in the longer term strong enough to encourage the development of a sane, simpler, alternative.

Re:Oracle Software (1)

javacowboy (222023) | more than 3 years ago | (#35042234)

I don't know what Oracle's going to do with Netbeans but it's too early to say based on dropping Ruby on Rails support (not, AFAIK, the Ruby language). If Oracle doesn't want to keep every feature under the sun (no pun intended) in Netbeans, then I can't say that's a bad decision on their part. If they start charging for Netbeans and/or intentionally crippling the free version, that will be when it's time to cry foul. I don't count dropping a discretionary feature as RoR support as "crippling".

continue the support yourself (1)

teknopurge (199509) | more than 3 years ago | (#35040940)

'However, we strongly encourage our community of NetBeans Ruby users and developers to volunteer to take on development of Ruby on Rails support for the NetBeans IDE. " Remember Netbeans is just Forte - the whole thing is just a collection of modules. Fork the ruby module.

Re:continue the support yourself (1)

M. Baranczak (726671) | more than 3 years ago | (#35041064)

In other words, Larry wants a new gold-plated toilet for his yacht, so he eliminated a few developer positions to save money. Now he expects people to work on the project for free.

Who knows? It might work.

Re:continue the support yourself (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35041476)

Well, considering he's not going to be making any money for the product that he's giving away for free, pardon him for not wanting to spend money to pay people to work on it. Sorry, but it's a business decision and Ruby support doesn't actually make them any money, especially if they're more interested in trying to sell Java-based solutions now that they own that.

Part of the reason Sun was bought out was because they spent money on utterly pointless crap like adding Ruby support to Netbeans in the first place. A lot of developer effort that in no way helped them to stay in business. Whoever pulled the trigger on this did so because it was a waste of money for the company. The only possible thing it could do is get them a little good will from people who are unlikely to buy Oracle products anyways.

Well that and most of the industry is past the Ruby phase anyhow. It really didn't pan out and even the diehards will have moved on in another decade. It's not like the language is going places.

Re:continue the support yourself (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35041918)

The /. crowd has a difficult time understanding the dynamics of running a profitable company. For them, open source is the that bullet silver that let others do the work while they don't contribute anything back and show their friends how cool they are by running Ubuntu. Meanwhile, the real world moves on.

LOL... time wasted huh? :3 (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35040958)

and again time of java and ruby enthusiasts had been wasted in retrospective...

the game

Re:LOL... time wasted huh? :3 (1)

Timewasted (1731254) | more than 3 years ago | (#35041056)

I almost fell out of my chair laughing so hard at this garbage:

and again time of java and ruby enthusiasts had been wasted in retrospective...

the game

When will people learn that you are supposed to have multiple tools? A hammer alone can't build a house!

Lousy headline (0)

noidentity (188756) | more than 3 years ago | (#35040992)

What a lousy headline. First, I read it and thought it was a cute way of saying that Netbeans 7 supports Ruby (Ruby dropped into soup, thus there is now a ruby in the soup). The following both communicates that Ruby was in earlier versions and is now gone:

Ruby Dropped from Netbeans 7

Could even throw in the word support, making it even clearer.

Hurry up Oracle (0, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35041068)

and drop netbeans all together

The sooner there isn't an ide that allows someone to hack something together without writing code and clicking the next buttons on wizards the sooner people in my profession will stop asking me to "please do the needful for the same"

Well, it's... not a bad idea (2)

rubypossum (693765) | more than 3 years ago | (#35041070)

I support Eclipse dropping Ruby. It's a waste of time for them to support my favorite language. Eclipse is the peak of the Java wave. Nay, it is the very pinnacle of Gosling's genius. Anyone who looks at the incredible elegance of the system will quickly realize how unsuited it is to Ruby development. Ruby is just not ready for the brilliance of the Eclipse Development System. It was too shoddy, too tainted with the foul fumes of scripting languages. Practically reeks of Perl.

Until Ruby is worthy we'll just have to settle for Textmate and Vim [akitaonrails.com] .

Re:Well, it's... not a bad idea (2)

Kagetsuki (1620613) | more than 3 years ago | (#35041370)

I'm not sure if you are being sarcastic and I'm just not getting it, but first off as far as scripting languages go Ruby is possibly the cleanest I've ever seen - not to mention the functionality of the language is fantastic without having any of the weird quirks of say ECMA based languages. Eclipse on the other hand is a train wreck. I don't think I've ever gotten eclipse set up "properly" and every time I've used it it has managed to break itself or screw up packages or libraries or something. Honestly I've never had a good experience with eclipse. For Java development NetBeans was pretty clean and nice when I used it back in... the late 90's I think. It was slow as mud and used those awful Java display widgets but it was simple.

Now I just said all that in response to what was probably not a serious comment to begin with. I say this because anyone using VIM is unlikely to be dealing with a bulky and messy free IDE designed around a language nobody really knows why they are using. While we're at it let me just drop another one: ANT is an awful build system and I hate it.

Re:Well, it's... not a bad idea (1)

SplashMyBandit (1543257) | more than 3 years ago | (#35041404)

Netbeans uses Swing which is on Java2D which has been fully hardware accelerated since Java 1.6.0_u10. Netbeans can be a little sluggish when working hard on stuff sometimes but it is certainly a lot faster than it used to be. As you point out Netbeans pretty much works out of the box compared to the morass that is the World of Eclipse plugins. If you haven't tries Netbeans lately it might be worth you checking it out as your opinion might change (and NetBeans 7.0, currently in Beta, has some nifty changes too).

Re:Well, it's... not a bad idea (1)

Kagetsuki (1620613) | more than 3 years ago | (#35041490)

I have no intention of writing any Java code in the near future (and use VIM for everything else), but some of the features built in do look appealing and well done. The integrated versioning for example, I use GIT with Meld and it looks almost exactly like that but all built in. Still, to this day I hate dealing with anything web based in VIM (JavaScript, etc.) and it looks like Eclipse handles all that so I'll give it a try there. Thanks for the heads up.

Re:Well, it's... not a bad idea (1)

SplashMyBandit (1543257) | more than 3 years ago | (#35041612)

If you haven't given it a go yet then I would suggest researching the Google Web Toolkit (GWT) if you are doing any web stuff. Beats doing JavaScript by hand or most JavaScript libraries. Eclipse (and NetBeans) has a plugin for GWT that is quite nice. If you are doing anything complex it can be quite good to use a full-featured debugger to sort out a web GUI.

Re:Well, it's... not a bad idea (1)

mario_grgic (515333) | more than 3 years ago | (#35042032)

And I have to seriously question the intelligence of anyone who could not "set up" an IDE that basically works out of the box. You point it to your source, import library dependencies (or better yet have make/ant/BASH script generate the Eclipse project files, they are just XML you know) and off you go. For Java development, it's really good IDE.

Install VI plugin if you are so inclined and you are doubly better off :D. Netbeans on the other hand has jVi (which is complete VIM port to java and works amazingly well). This is the only compelling reason to use Netbeans over Eclipse.

Re:Well, it's... not a bad idea (1)

WWWWolf (2428) | more than 3 years ago | (#35041770)

Ruby is just not ready for the brilliance of the Eclipse Development System. It was too shoddy, too tainted with the foul fumes of scripting languages. Practically reeks of Perl.

But none of this applies to PHP, which NetBeans continues to support?

Clearly, you have a very curious view of what constitutes elegance. =)

Other options (1)

snookiex (1814614) | more than 3 years ago | (#35041074)

Oracle has nearly nothing to do with Ruby, so in that sense it's not surprising. However it's surprising that only a couple developers complaint about that in the Netbeans testers mailing list [netbeans.org] given the community that had been growing lately around this extension. In other news, Aptana [aptana.org] seems to be a good alternative too.

Re:Other options (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35041166)

Eclipse/Aptana is like Mozilla/Firefox: friendly and powerful, but also huge and slow. I'm looking forward to Aptana/RadRails 3.0, announced for 2011-Q1. From the beta it seems they have been reworking the UI and eliminating a lot of cruft and semi-abandoned modules that never worked in the first place. Also the recent acquisition [appcelerator.com] of Aptana by Appcelerator looks promising, it could mean fresh money and better Ruby and Javascript features.

Re:Other options (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35041936)

You mean the community that has not grown around that extension? Ruby programmers are all hip & cool, why use NetBeans or Eclipse in the first place? Create something on top of RoR and keep the hype going.

Bah (0)

Richard Dick Head (803293) | more than 3 years ago | (#35041076)

Netbeans became popular because Eclipse used to suck. This situation would bother me if we still were stuck in 2004. :)

Re:Bah (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35041152)

Used to suck? On the contrary, Eclipse USED to be better than NetBeans, use NetBeans today and then go back to Eclipse. Eclipse is a real clunker man.

Re:Bah (1)

Kagetsuki (1620613) | more than 3 years ago | (#35041406)

Are you saying NetBeans doesn't suck or are you just saying it is better than Eclipse? If they both suck then why bother with either in the first place?

Re:Bah (1)

MemoryDragon (544441) | more than 3 years ago | (#35041442)

Eclipse sucks compared to netbeans and Intellij. Eclipse is a mess of half working plugins. Especially the jee part of eclipse is really lousy with lack of features slow editors and bugs.

Weblogic in Eclipse (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35041272)

Got a link on how to hotdeploy a webapp to Oracle's WebLogic inside Eclipse? In my experience, edits to source code require a restart of WebLogic.

end (0)

codepunk (167897) | more than 3 years ago | (#35041176)

I still cannot fathom why anyone would like to spend the day typing the following.

                    end
          end
end

It gives me pascal flashbacks.

Re:end (1)

BitHive (578094) | more than 3 years ago | (#35041194)

So do you only write Python or what? Why is '}' easier for your brain to chunk than 'end'?

Re:end (1)

akeeneye (1788292) | more than 3 years ago | (#35041228)

} Python? Py doesn't use curlies for begin/end. I adore Python and its whitespace goodness, but Scala is really growing on me too. It seems to just intuit the "ends". The dreaded curlies get used about 50% less often than with Java.

Re:end (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35041204)

I suppose you prefer Python, a language using whitespace for block structures. It's so much fun when someone accidentally uses both tabs and spaces, or decides to move blocks of code around.

Re:end (1)

lattyware (934246) | more than 3 years ago | (#35041348)

If you are not indenting your code correctly you are still making it hard to read the code. The reality is that whitespace is a good way to show code blocks to humans, and it's good practice to indent properly anyway - so why not just use that rather than indenting and using braces? Braces are just extra stuff that isn't needed.

Re:end (1)

MichaelSmith (789609) | more than 3 years ago | (#35041464)

Just try doing it on a 20 year old code base where non-functional changes are prohibited by company policy and lazy programmers have been pasting thousands of lines of functionality from elsewhere into the middle of loops and if statements because they were afraid of impacting old code and where the comments which might have helped you work out what the hell was going on are all written in French and Arabic and most of them are the programmers ragging on each other anyway and everybody uses whatever editor is available, usually vee eye with tabs sometimes enabled and sometimes not and...

I suppose the big advantage of python in that environment is that it wouldn't work at all, while C soldiers on.

Re:end (1)

lattyware (934246) | more than 3 years ago | (#35041486)

Exactly. The code simply can't get to that point with Python. Some people hate having it forced on them, but it simply is a better solution. It's more natural and more sensible. Python tries to encourage a good, or at the very least, consistant, coding style wherever possible.

Re:end (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35041988)

> Python tries to encourage a good, or at the very least, consistant, coding style wherever possible.

Rubbish!

Try to edit some python code in plone CMS (which is based on python) using the built-in, browser-based UI. You never know if and how your browser changes the tabs to spaces.

Python is as bad as Miranda. But unlike miranda it is still popular. Unfortunally.

Python (1)

Compaqt (1758360) | more than 3 years ago | (#35042180)

OK, I suppose.

But the thing with brackets is programmers have a huge set of tools created which are based on brackets. For example, pass over a bracket, and the matching bracket gets highlighted. Jedit even shows you the text of the matching line. Highly useful.

You can collapse and expand blocks, as well.

Second gripe: For a language that prides itself of removing superfluous dreck (brackets, semicolons), it's amazing that you have to manually pass along the current object ("self"). Bothersome both for high-school newbs and professional programmers.

Please don't say you can create a macro to automatically insert "self" for all of your functions. Because most editors also have macros for semicolons and brackets as well.

Re:end (1)

maxwell demon (590494) | more than 3 years ago | (#35041660)

If you are not indenting your code correctly you are still making it hard to read the code.

With {} (or begin end or ...) my computer can indent it for me. And re-indent it with few key presses if I move it to a place where another indentation is needed. If the indentation is the scoping, the computer cannot do that for me.

Re:end (1)

Kagetsuki (1620613) | more than 3 years ago | (#35041446)

Precisely one of the reasons I hate Python. Not every single piece of code on the planet is going to look good with the same white space structure, sometimes you need to add or subtract whitespace to make your code more understandable. Add that to the fact some editors handle white space completely differently (tab is a character damn you!). But that's not the show stopper for me; for me what really makes me not like Python is things like terrible stability caused by things like poor dynamic variable management, system inconsistencies, general interpreter bugs, random memory leaks, global warming, ghosts, and who knows what. I just can't trust Python, end of story.

It's the features (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35041876)

"sometimes you need to add or subtract whitespace to make your code more understandable. Add that to the fact some editors handle white space completely differently (tab is a character damn you!)."

This, and the other whitespace issues like tab vs. space and moving codeblocks around is not a problem with a decent editor. All good editors support visible tab characters, space->tab conversion and vice versa, and indentation of selections, and columnar editing. Some of the the best (such as Kate) also support decent dynamic wrapping that makes your code readable on any screensize, without breaking the visible layout of indents. I suspect anyone complaining about whitespace in python is basically just being willfully intransigent -- refusing to learn a new trick.

"But that's not the show stopper for me; for me what really makes me not like Python is things like terrible stability caused by things like poor dynamic variable management, system inconsistencies, general interpreter bugs, random memory leaks, global warming, ghosts, and who knows what. I just can't trust Python, end of story."

Now THAT is a better complaint. Same for me. I like coding in python; it's face, and just... nice. BUT, without proper type checking and at least proper threading (no GIL), it's just too lame for serious apps. At least it's better than Java / Scala / Ruby in terms of overhead, and better than Ruby in terms of performance and Unicode. That's good, but it's not enough.

At this point, I'm seriously considering going back to C++ or C. Go would have had a chance, if it was sane about supporting exceptions etc. Scala would have been perfect with a (much) lower overhead.

Re:end (1)

Kagetsuki (1620613) | more than 3 years ago | (#35041424)

As much as I love Ruby this is one syntax issue that kind of bothers me (along with elsif). The thing is I hate Python using white space/indent levels more than that. As for why Ruby doesn't use braces, it's for dynamic objects and hashes and the like: {:name => "bob", :age => 26} . The thing is you can that in ActionScript3 AND it still uses C like bracing.

Re:end (1)

Dahamma (304068) | more than 3 years ago | (#35041654)

Sorry, but if you are more worried about using a 3 letter keyword, a bracket, or a bit of whitespace in your coding syntax than actually making it readable and testable - I can't imagine any decent engineers that would want to collaborate with you.

Now, on the other hand, if you had complained that Ruby has evolved to pretty much accommodate any syntax you can think of (resulting in complete chaos in coding style in many larger-scale Ruby projects) without actually putting much if any time into actual performance, I might respect the complaint. But block closing syntax.. is that REALLY the best Ruby complaint you can come up with?

Re:end (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35041964)

This is also one of the reasons why I don't like Ruby. The syntax of a language should never get in the way of programming.

The "end", imo, has the following disadvantages:

1) Takes more effort to type. To those who say "learn to type" I answer, i type very well, it's just that I can create more code with the same typing if the syntax is shorter

2) end what? You have to follow the code line by line to find out, it's too easy to inadvertently add or drop a loose "end" in the code. With braces a decent editor takes care to highlight the matching brace, in Python you can see indentation at a glance.

I was interested in Ruby and tried learning it for a while, but the Perl-like syntax turned me off. Python has more or less equivalent features and a much cleaner syntax. Whatever feature Ruby has that Python doesn't I use so rarely that it isn't worth the clumsy syntax.

Re:end (1)

Peeteriz (821290) | more than 3 years ago | (#35042096)

Well, as the discussion is about decent IDE's, then you can safely assume that none of these users actually type 'end' by themselves, as the syntax structures are autocompleted anyway.

As long as machine is doing the typing, slightly easier reading is much more important than length of writing.

end is harder to read (1)

mangu (126918) | more than 3 years ago | (#35042240)

As long as machine is doing the typing, slightly easier reading is much more important than length of writing.

First, I don't use autocompletion. I've tried it and found that I can type faster than stopping every time to pick one of a set of options. Autocompletion is for people who can't type, If you can't type very fast you'll never be a very productive programmer.

Also, "end" isn't easier to read than "}". The closing brace has a distinctive shape, the only place it could be confusing is if it's mixed with parentheses, as often happens in Python, I don't program in Ruby so I don't know if it's the same problem there.

If they are in a line by themselves, braces are easier to see at a glance than "end", that was one of the details that got me to switch to C from Pascal. When you have to program or maintain millions of lines of code, every little detail matters, it may not be that much difference seeing one symbol or the other, but in the end the simpler one wins.

Ok, no biggy, jetbrains support for ruby is solid. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35041198)

Ok, no biggy, move on over to jetbrains.com and pick up a copy of ruby mine. Netbeans was always a poor IDEA knockoff anyway. And I have it from a solid reference, that Netbeans was struggling until it explicitly copied IDEA.

Timothy can't/won't bother to read. (0)

tqk (413719) | more than 3 years ago | (#35041268)

... there where ...

Some of us care about fine details, damnit!

Hey, open source means... (1)

iamacat (583406) | more than 3 years ago | (#35041332)

That you don't have to wait for an 'evil' big company to provide you with features. So stop whining and start coding a community modulebalready. Or is it 'free as in leech'?

Re:Hey, open source means... (1)

bw-sf (937673) | more than 3 years ago | (#35041642)

It's not that I'm a leech, it's just that desktop apps aren't my bag, man. What I hated the least about NetBeans is it allowed me to concentrate on coding my code without telling me I had to write plugins or whatever. I don't want a platform or an SDK or anything; I just want a usable text editor that works nicely with a few different types of code. I don't need something that tries to run all my tests and run my dev servers or anything, I want a lightweight editor. Some syntax highlighting options (pluginable, if you must), RegEx search/replace, that's about all I need. I want to use it, I don't want to learn its fucking macro language. Right now I'm using jEdit. I hate it. But I hate it less than I hate vi or emacs.

Re:Hey, open source means... (1)

maxwell demon (590494) | more than 3 years ago | (#35041688)

You can use Emacs or vi without learning its macro language. Especially if all you need is syntax highlighting and regex search/replace.
However I cannot think of a reason why it should be bad if you can start make from the editor.

Re:Hey, open source means... (1)

NickFortune (613926) | more than 3 years ago | (#35041896)

However I cannot think of a reason why it should be bad if you can start make from the editor.

Me neither.

:!make

generally does the job for me. Also handy is

!!make

Generally from a blank line at the bottom of the file - runs make and drops the output into the vi buffer. You can put /* */ around the line before hand so you don't forget about it and get syntax errors from the compiler output.

That said, I'm a bit lazy. Usually I just type

control-z
make
fg

and I don't get the overhead of having some cumbersome great IDE using up memory and pixels on my machine.

Re:Hey, open source means... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35041842)

Could try gedit with the gmate plugin pack. That's working quite nicely for me.

kate (1)

mangu (126918) | more than 3 years ago | (#35041940)

Kate is exactly what you describe, has been working fine for me for the last ten years or so.

RTFA (1)

gilxa1226 (464588) | more than 3 years ago | (#35041922)

It's dropping paid dev support. Instead it will become a community run project like Python.

From TFA:

After this development, the NetBeans/Ruby support will become a community project, much like Python support

Netbeans is easily extendable through plugins. It's one of the features I like so much about it. The netbeans.org website even has tutorials for how to go about adding new language support through the use of plugins.

Title is loaded with FUD (1)

Mazzie (672533) | more than 3 years ago | (#35042018)

The title is so misleading. There is still a Ruby bundle for Netbeans 7.0. In fact you can download the beta now. What happened is they decided to stop paying employees to work on it and are handing it over to the community.
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