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EFL 1.0 Is Finally Released

timothy posted more than 3 years ago | from the just-when-you-least-expect-it dept.

Enlightenment 115

Lisandro writes "The Enlightenment crew has finally released the first version of the Enlightenment Foundation Libraries, which the E17 desktop is built on." Adds reader mu22le: "Among the Enlightenment libraries hitting version 1.0 are Eina (core data structure), Eet (data encode/decode and storage), Evas (canvas and scenegraph rendering ), Ecore (core mainloop, display abstraction and utility), Embryo (small virtual machine and compiler), Edie (GUI layout and animation), E_Dbus, Efreet (handling of freedesktop.org standards), and Eeze (udev wrapping)." Getting it right can take a while -- a preview of the EFL libraries first appeared in 2004. Enlightenment has never stopped looking cool.

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It might be getting some serious use, MAYBE (2)

sznupi (719324) | more than 3 years ago | (#35043610)

Some time ago there were hints & speculations that Samsung bada mobile OS might use some Enlightenment libraries. Considering how future Samsung Star-like handsets might shift to bada from "feature phone" flavor of Touchwiz UI (it's already quite close), how primarily such handsets represent recent touchscreen boom (except for very few atypical but highly visible and vocal places) - millions of people might perhaps carry at all times part of Enlightenment with them quite soon...

Re:It might be getting some serious use, MAYBE (4, Informative)

malloc (30902) | more than 3 years ago | (#35044206)

Some time ago there were hints & speculations that Samsung bada mobile OS might use some Enlightenment libraries.

Considering that Samsung hired [rasterman.com] Carsten Haitzler, the main figure behind E17, that wouldn't be too far fetched.

Re:It might be getting some serious use, MAYBE (2)

raster (13531) | more than 3 years ago | (#35048654)

I'm still here (@ Samsung). What comes out and when is not something I can say, but Enlightenment and EFL are in heavy use here at Samsung R&D. Samsung Mobile platform R&D isn't a small place either. EFL actually does what very little else can do and generally faster or much faster, with more flexibility and smaller footprint. And it improves day by day. Expect a stream of releases and new libraries, and so on over time. Priority is in getting things right for long-term longevity, not short-term publicity. So wait and see what appears.

Oh rly? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35049372)

Have you got any public comparisons to GTK or Qt regarding speed, flexibility and footprint? If not, what you say look pure advertisement. Not that surprising as EFL is your child and there's (still!) nearly no EFL community among application developers these days (please provide examples of non-trivial applications with at least average usability and consistency). Just please do not paste jokes like edite (http://trac.enlightenment.org/e/wiki/Editje) which is hard to compare even with GTK or Qt solutions from 2005, consistency/usability/feature -wise.

Regarding flexibility please paste some links on how C from 80's with void* used everywhere (evas objects, even without structural paradigm) is better flexibility than object-oriented solutions.

Review? Screenshots? (0)

Jane Q. Public (1010737) | more than 3 years ago | (#35043616)

I would like to see a thorough review of EFL, with good descriptions and screenshots, before I download and install them on anything.

Re:Review? Screenshots? (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35043658)

and how exactly do you take screen shots of libraries? this isn't a Desktop Environment, this is the back end. and a review would only be useful to developers who have to work with this stuff, as most user's wont directly interact with the libraries, they'll interact with Enlightenment DE (Desktop Environment) itself. And finally, if you are unsure of what this is, or why you should/shouldn't install it, i would recommend not posting on slashdot (and looking dumb) about it, and not downloading and installing them either. In fact, pick up a book on programming geared toward the GUI and maybe you'll understand what this is, and why its needed.

Re:Review? Screenshots? (4, Insightful)

Cylix (55374) | more than 3 years ago | (#35043788)

Since they are graphical libraries a series of screen shots detailing what they are capable of wouldn't be too bad.

I think it's a fair question to ask if you want to dedicate some time into using them.

Re:Review? Screenshots? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35044266)

wouldnt they be capable of pretty much the exact same thing that v0.9 was? i dont see the relevance in asking for screenshots. If you have not been following the project, it shouldnt be hard to catch up by doing some research, if you have then you wont need screen caps of v1.0?

Re:Review? Screenshots? (1)

Cylix (55374) | more than 3 years ago | (#35044570)

Given the relative length of time for Enlightenment updates and releases it's fair to say there are more then a handful of new coders that have come unto the market. I know, I know, we keep reproducing vermin upon vermin, but alas there is nothing I can do to stop such things.

It does entirely no harm and absolutely some good to entice new developers into your product.

The worst that could happen is you ruffle someones feathers who doesn't appear to understand the basic concepts of marketing a product. All in all, not a great loss because feathers will eventually fall into place.

Re:Review? Screenshots? (1)

raster (13531) | more than 3 years ago | (#35048666)

We're improving the website and documentation. There is stuff there. The problem is all those demos and screenshots and tutorials take a lot of time. take a dig through the website - about page, wiki and so on. you can look on youtube for videos of what EFL can and has done.

Re:Review? Screenshots? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35043818)

WELL! I NEVER.... Snoot, snoot, snoot...

Re:Review? Screenshots? (1)

larry bagina (561269) | more than 3 years ago | (#35043848)

how about the API documentation and some sample code?

Re:Review? Screenshots? (1)

icebike (68054) | more than 3 years ago | (#35043916)

Follow the links in the article. Its all there.

Re:Review? Screenshots? (1)

Jane Q. Public (1010737) | more than 3 years ago | (#35045362)

No, it isn't. There isn't a single actual "review" at those links, nor did I see one linked to from those pages, either. And couple of small graphics does not a set of screenshots make. I even searched via Google, and did not find either a real review or a set of screenshots showing its default installation state, or anything else of that nature, on the leading page of any of my searches.

Re:Review? Screenshots? (1)

icebike (68054) | more than 3 years ago | (#35045572)

The message I replied to was looking for API documentation.

Its all there. Follow the link to the Foundation Libraries, ( http://www.enlightenment.org/?p=news/show&l=en&news_id=28 [enlightenment.org] ) and drill down for documentation.

Asking for screen shots of APIs Is kind of like asking for screen shots of a dictionary. But the GP did not ask for screen shots.

Re:Review? Screenshots? (1)

Jane Q. Public (1010737) | more than 3 years ago | (#35045820)

Excuse me. With this "new" Slashdot layout, it's harder to tell what is a reply to what.

The APIs are there, but not what I was looking for.

It's a desktop library, or set of libraries. As such, I would expect it to have a default. Or at least examples of how it looks and works, given its most basic (default) settings and behavior. Every other desktop setup I have seen has had such, from the beginning.

Further, I am not inclined to try such a thing without seeing a review first.

Re:Review? Screenshots? (1)

Jane Q. Public (1010737) | more than 3 years ago | (#35045830)

To clarify: I wasn't asking for "screen shots of APIs". That would indeed be stupid. What I was looking for were screenshots of the results of using these APIs. Some sort of examples, at any rate.

Re:Review? Screenshots? (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35043828)

Well, you could go to PC Linux OS [pclinuxos.com] and download the e17 iso. Load it up on a VM and test it out.

Re:Review? Screenshots? (1)

X0563511 (793323) | more than 3 years ago | (#35044316)

On that note, does anyone have any recommendations for a distro to flop down to test this? I feel a bit lazy to go about doing the hard work at the moment. I did use it, YEARS ago - and I just cannot remember what distro I saw it on!

I'd rather not use PC Linux OS myself - in such case I'd rather use Debian or Ubuntu directly.

Re:Review? Screenshots? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35044502)

Use Elive. It's a live CD based on Debian, and the E setup is absolutely gorgeous. I've been seriously tempted to drop Fedora for it in the past.

Re:Review? Screenshots? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35045204)

Damn new layout...

I'm running it on Gentoo. It isn't in the official portage, so one has to get it from an overlay, though there are three to chose from. The official enlightenment one, and two others (Vapier's is recognised as 'enlightenment' by layman) with instructions on the wiki.

http://trac.enlightenment.org/e/wiki/Gentoo [enlightenment.org]
http://en.gentoo-wiki.com/wiki/E17 [gentoo-wiki.com]

It seems like the enlightenment one tries to keep ebuilds at stable builds, though Vapier's seems to get the latest from SVN, though I've never had problems getting from it.

Re:Review? Screenshots? (0)

bonch (38532) | more than 3 years ago | (#35045540)

"Anyone have screenshots or other information so I don't have to spend time installing it to find out more about it?"

"Well, you could go to this link and download the ISO to install it."

What could i do with this? (2)

Saija (1114681) | more than 3 years ago | (#35043620)

As a linux enthusiast, user and eye-candy lover what could i do with this? honest question, is this the core to build enlightment?

Re:What could i do with this? (3, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35045244)

Enlightenment is a window manager. The EFL are the libraries that the E team wrote in order to write E17 (Enlightenment 0.17), which was a complete rewrite from E16. If you are a developer you can use the libraries to write your own programs. The summary contains an overview of what does what (Except that it is Edje, not edie). If you are just an end user, then it is just libraries that are in E17's core, and thus it depends on them. For you the release would mean that E17 has less problems than before, and is closer itself to release.

Re:What could i do with this? (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35045252)

It's the basis of e17, yes. And e17 is a wicked-slick desktop environment; works quite well on netbooks, tablets, etc. Fully DPI-independent, tons of eye-candy, and it's still snappy on a dual-core 800MHz Turion (my old HP TX2000, locked on the lowest clock speed for maximum battery life, was where I first met it.)

However, it's a general-purpose set of libraries usable for any app. For example, on my N900 (running more-or-less stock Maemo, with not a trace of Enlightenment involved) I use BlueMaemo (a bluetooth HID implementation allowing my phone to serve as a bluetooth keyboard & mouse to any machine) which is built on EFL, and there's also the highly-regarded (though not to my taste, so I've no experience) media player/library/etc. Canola for Maemo (and I think some other platforms as well. There's another app or two out there, but at present it's main use is Enlightenment.

Re:What could i do with this? (1)

Saija (1114681) | more than 3 years ago | (#35046816)

The 2 Ac's response just cleared me the topic of this thread, +1 informative for you guys.

v1.0 is not "the first version" (3, Informative)

Xtifr (1323) | more than 3 years ago | (#35043636)

E17, which depends on these libraries, has been out for...how many years now? It's in wide use, and even has a specialized distro or two based on it. These may be v1.0 libraries, but that by no means indicates that they're "the first version". That's as silly a claim as the notion that v1.9 should be followed by v2.0 rather than by v1.10. The v1.0 appellation suggests that this is the first feature complete release, not the first version!

I agree, but... (2)

novar21 (1694492) | more than 3 years ago | (#35043692)

It's these version numbers that are confusing people. And everyone does these version numbers differently. So should we replace version numbers with dates? That would bring up other problems like should it be yyyy-mm-dd or mm-dd-yyyy or dd-mm-yyyy? Another way of doing this would be to have a feature complete indicator followed by a patch number. So you could have FC1.675. But others may want to use different structures or designators. We should all find a standard we can agree on mostly, and use that. But that can be like hurding cats.

Dates should always be stored yyyymmdd (1)

Nick Ives (317) | more than 3 years ago | (#35043820)

It makes them easier to sort, otherwise you have to reverse the order and then sort.

For something like versioning it should certainly be yyyymmdd as that way if you have a directory full of enlightenment-yyyy-mm-dd.tar.bz2 name order == version order.

Re:I agree, but... (1)

Xtifr (1323) | more than 3 years ago | (#35043844)

And everyone does these version numbers differently.

Do they? "Everyone?" Really? I have thousands of packages available for my distro that all use more-or-less the same schema: major.minor.patch. I have to hunt long and hard to find exceptions. The fact that it's nearly mandatory for libraries to use this schema in order for so-versioning to work no doubt helps.

We should all find a standard we can agree on mostly

We've got that. Yes, "mostly" is an important word there, but it's enough that I think it can meaningfully be described as a de-facto standard. The GNU version of ls(1) even has a "-v" flag to sort files based on the standard versioning schema, i.e. foo1.3.2 sorts before foo1.12.1. (I just wish Apache would add that option.)

Anyone who goes for dates, though, should certainly use ISO 8601 [iso.org], which is a formally accepted international standard.

"for your distro" (1)

novar21 (1694492) | more than 3 years ago | (#35045114)

Distro's set rules. But not all distros use the the same numbering scheme for versions. Then move outside a distro and role your own using source code and things can get very interesting. So, yes you are right within your distro, but many distros renumber and apply patches to the source before distribution as a package. So consistency within a distro is maintained, but as you noted there are exceptions. Stating "schema: major.minor.patch" is nice, but lacks definition. Define major, minor, and patch. "Patch" could be the distro patch or a patch from the project. Is 0 in major mean the software is alpha, beta, production? Does an even number in minor mean stable or unstable? How high are numbers allowed before you must increment your major version? Is version 3.898437658675.22 realistic? A better question is does it really convey any useful information, or cause confusion?

Re:I agree, but... (1)

raster (13531) | more than 3 years ago | (#35048714)

i think he was implying that version 1.0 MEANS something different to different development teams. same with 2.0, 3.0 etc. etc. - where one group will rapidly move up from 1.0 to 2.0 then 3.0, 4.0 and jump to 7.0 or whatever another will lurk in 0.1, 0.2, 0.3 and maybe take many years to hit 1.0. it mostly centers around "what meaning do you attach to 1.0, 2.0 etc." is 1.0 just "its ok and seems to work" vs "this is golden and well polished. very solid and you have mountain of features and are very unlikely to hit problems".

it always varies. wine took a LONG time to get to 1.0 - so did EFL. Linux kernel still hasn't gone beyond 2.x. KDE and Qt have hit 4.x by now. Windows is throwing 7.x around. MacOS is talking version 10.x... very big difference in numbers and vast difference in meanings.

Re:I agree, but... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35044594)

It's these version numbers that let us check if we got a compatible library version. If people would honor what major minor and micro numbers stand for there shouldn't be any problem at all.

Major differs: Interfaces have changed
Minor is higher: new features, but old featues are intact.
Micro differs: performance or bug patch

It is nice to have with programs, but it is really nice to be able to say: My library needs library x version y.z and the installing party can look if a sufficient version is installed or fetch a new one with same major and minor and micro as high as possible. (first looking for the highest minor than the highest micro)

Re:I agree, but... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35046116)

Well it definitely wouldn't be 'mm-dd-yyyy' because you know, no one else on the fucking planet uses that ridiculous abomination...

Re:v1.0 is not "the first version" (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35044234)

Links? I've been looking to try E17 for the last few years. The download link on their site points to e16 only. I don't believe I've ever run across any distros that mention E.
  Captcha is antique.

Re:v1.0 is not "the first version" (2)

Lisandro (799651) | more than 3 years ago | (#35044294)

In fact, this would be the first stable release of the EFL libraries. I've been following the development of Enna [geexbox.org], and the main branch would regularly break due to changes on the EFL API.

Re:v1.0 is not "the first version" (1)

raster (13531) | more than 3 years ago | (#35048718)

That shall no longer happen with 1.x EFL libs. :) thought elementary that it relies on is still not 1.0 yet... just wait. :)

Re:v1.0 is not "the first version" (1)

bonch (38532) | more than 3 years ago | (#35045558)

Talk about being pedantic as hell. Obviously, the phrase "first version" is in reference to the idea of the first public, stable version as denoted by the version number 1.0.

Obscure Reference - see if you can pick it (1, Troll)

Dexter Herbivore (1322345) | more than 3 years ago | (#35043656)

It may be enlightened, but can it immanentize the eschaton?

Re:Obscure Reference - see if you can pick it (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35043808)

Nope, can't

Two ways parent can be moderated.. offtopic or insightful, but I don't know which!

Just thumbing... (2)

iluvcapra (782887) | more than 3 years ago | (#35043676)

Just thumbing through these, this framework looks a lot like GObject... Why are there literally 5 or 6 different frameworks in Linux, each with their own container classes, marshaling, runloop, event handling, and string libraries again? It'd make sense if they were all for different languages, used vastly different semantics, etc. and then only barely, but these all have bindings for dozens of languages and all gab with the client in essentially the same way. It's weird.

Re:Just thumbing... (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35043722)

There are 5 or 6 different frameworks on every platform, and hundreds of people rolling their own (less common on Linux and mac). Not unusual at all.

Re:Just thumbing... (2)

iluvcapra (782887) | more than 3 years ago | (#35043786)

Really? I mean, on a Mac you use Cocoa, all vendors use Cocoa -- they don't have to, some people rope STL into the fray, but that's because of language issues with legacy code. Why would you write a new one of these libraries, when half a dozen people have already written the same add-functions-to-C-to-bring-it-up-to-parity-with-Python libraries?

Re:Just thumbing... (2)

Xtifr (1323) | more than 3 years ago | (#35044020)

I mean, on a Mac you use Cocoa

Well, except for the people who use, e.g., E17 and/or the EFL on Mac. This is a cross-platform library and desktop, not something specific to Linux, so the original question ("why does Linux have...") makes no sense.

Ignoring that huge quibble, though, the answer is: because Linux is not trying to be a one-size-fits-all solution, but rather an available-in-many-sizes-to-fit-your-needs solution, which is something that a lot of us greatly prefer.

Re:Just thumbing... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35044610)

surely you can provide an example OS X EFL application that people actually use?

Re:Just thumbing... (1)

smash (1351) | more than 3 years ago | (#35044896)

"people" do that on the mac, or just a single person? seriously, the whole point of the mac is to get apps that fit in with the rest of the system, and they are cocoa. given how much stuff cocoa can do for you, it boggles the mind as to why you'd bother NOT using it on the mac, unless you're doing some shitty half arsed port of something and in that case very few mac users are going to go for it because compared to the rest of the apps on the system it will likely look and run like shit.

just sayin.... if you want cross platform like that you want something like java.

Re:Just thumbing... (1)

tibman (623933) | more than 3 years ago | (#35046472)

You are silly. If someone makes a cross-platform game or program.. they will have to use cross-platform libs.

Re:Just thumbing... (1)

spauldo (118058) | more than 3 years ago | (#35047108)

I dunno, I wanted to buy a mac back in the day so that I would have the best of both worlds - availability of various bits of commercial software unavailable on Unix and the ability to run Unix apps without dealing with hacks like cygwin (don't get my wrong, I like cygwin, and I have nothing but respect for its developers, but it's a hack) or wine (same disclaimer). You can run quite a bit of Unix software on OS X, and most of the commercial software programs I wanted are also available.

I decided not to after a spur of the moment decision to buy an iPhone changed my opinion of apple. I'll never give them a dime of my money again.

Anyway, were I to own a mac, most of my time would be spent running applications that don't use Cocoa. I know I'm in the minority, but hey, so are the guys who develop things like this.

Re:Just thumbing... (1)

RocketRabbit (830691) | more than 3 years ago | (#35045454)

While it is technically possible to use Enlightenment on the Mac or even on Windows, nobody actually does this except as a larf, so this "huge quibble" can indeed be safely ignored.

Re:Just thumbing... (3, Insightful)

Hatta (162192) | more than 3 years ago | (#35043960)

Why are there literally 5 or 6 different frameworks in Linux, each with their own container classes, marshaling, runloop, event handling, and string libraries again?

Because 5 or 6 different groups of people thought it would be fun to write their own desktop frameworks.

Re:Just thumbing... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35044500)

Completely offtopic: update your signature. Does Slashdot 3.0 suck as well?

Re:Just thumbing... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35044064)


It's really not a bad thing, you know.

Amazing how people rant about all the choices you get in the GNU/Linux world (and others) yet there are dozens and dozens of choices in, say, the automotive world and they all basically get you from point a to point b in essentially the same way.

Not weird at all.

Re:Just thumbing... (1)

Svartalf (2997) | more than 3 years ago | (#35044284)

Because they've been around, developing this since before KDE and GNOME were little more than an idea on someone's drawing board (not to mention some of the initial bits and bobs for GNOME came from Enlightenment.

Re:Just thumbing... (1)

CRCulver (715279) | more than 3 years ago | (#35044346)

E17 and EFL are complete rewrites and date from long after the writing of GNOME. There is no code left from the versions of Enlightenment that predate GNOME.

Re:Just thumbing... (1)

spauldo (118058) | more than 3 years ago | (#35047152)

There may be no code left from that era, but the ideas and community have remained. The Enlightenment community and the GNOME community have very different ideas on a lot of things.

That being said, I haven't use E since DR14, which I couldn't stand (DR13 was twelve kinds of awesome, though). A lot of the ideas we think of as standard first gained headway in E - imlib and esd were both originally part of Enlightenment, and eterm was the first popular terminal to support background images and pseudotransparency. E was also the first real working window manager that was designed for eye candy. If they've still got creative ideas to bring to the table, I'm all for it.

Re:Just thumbing... (1)

phantomfive (622387) | more than 3 years ago | (#35045072)

Because container classes, marshaling, runloop, event handling, and string libraries are all small compared to the rest of the framework.

Re:Just thumbing... (1)

raster (13531) | more than 3 years ago | (#35048742)

You can just have a ford model-t like everyone else. as long as you like black. if you don't... too bad. :)

Seriously, it's choice. it's competition. If you didn't have choice or competition everything would stagnate. You are free to say that EFL, or GTK+ or Qt or whatever just isn't your choice. It may not provide more than what you currently use, but other people may find it a benefit. There is a big cost in working with an existing framework. You have to carry its history along with you and baggage. When you disagree you can't just change it - you have to fight politics. Some people don't like to fight politics and want to just get on with proving their ideas right and writing the code. Reasons are many. It's mostly the reality of competition. No one entity funds all the efforts and forces everyone into 1 way of doing it. Reality is that people compete. Same with libraries and API's. Toolkits. Frameworks. They can compete, so they do. Hopefully it means choice for developers to use a toolkit more in-tune with their goals.

Enlightenment's utility (5, Insightful)

CAIMLAS (41445) | more than 3 years ago | (#35043680)

In retrospect, I've got to admire the dedication and self-control demonstrated by the E developers.

Back when E17 was started, it was a bloated (if awesome) project. I got sick and tired of waiting for it to finish, and pretty much soured on it when they started changing things drastically, making components (like efm - the file manager component of E17 at the time) discontinued. Granted, that's partially to be expected, but it was in development for years at that time - and reasonably stable despite.

Flash forward to now: it's a very, very lightweight window manager (compared to many others, at least) with a fairly rich featureset. It's been used recently on the "ePC" (2 years ago?) and IIRC it's been used on phones. The libraries are featureful and there is quite a lot of functionality exposed in the interfaces for the size of everything. The windowing toolkits are fast, and the result on my screen is likewise fast (and smooth) - even without acceleration. The libraries themselves are basically like the fltk2 toolkit, in many ways - but significantly more 'polished'.

It may have taken 10 years to 'get right' (or close to it) but the end result is, frankly, quite impressive.

Re:Enlightenment's utility (2)

GuruBuckaroo (833982) | more than 3 years ago | (#35043862)

The real question is: Did they slim it down, or did everything else exceed E17's bloat?

Re:Enlightenment's utility (1)

icebike (68054) | more than 3 years ago | (#35043958)

An, given their history, is there any reason to expect better support and continuity tomorrow than has been apparent for the last 10 years?

I've been in and out of Enlightenment several times over the years an I always end up scrapping it for something else due to the chaos. Its fine if you install it and leave it alone, then nuke it and install it again upon the next release. But migrating from release to release has been frustrating.

Now that we have exhausted all the K words and the X words, it will be interesting to see how long the E words last.

Re:Enlightenment's utility (5, Interesting)

Xtifr (1323) | more than 3 years ago | (#35043888)

It may have taken 10 years to 'get right' (or close to it) but the end result is, frankly, quite impressive.

Did it take 10 years to "get it right", or did it merely take 10 years for the competition to blast by in terms of bloat and overhead, making E17 look better simply because it hasn't gotten worse anywhere nearly as quickly? :)

This is an honest question, as I haven't followed E development at all. I do basically agree with the conclusion--E17 once seemed huge, bloated and slow, and now it seems small, effective and fast. Clearly the devs were doing something right along the way, even if it was simply not adding new kitchen sinks every year or two.

Re:Enlightenment's utility (2)

Svartalf (2997) | more than 3 years ago | (#35044296)

I think it's a bit of both, in truth. They've refined things as best as I can tell, so there's at least slightly less apparent overhead than before- and the others blew past them ages ago and didn't stop adding stuff. Some things we needed...many we didn't.

Re:Enlightenment's utility (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35045290)

You mean they were too busy thinking about what they could add to worry about whether they should? Man, developers should watch Jurassic Park!

Re:Enlightenment's utility (2)

cp.tar (871488) | more than 3 years ago | (#35044318)

The way I remember it... no, it wasn’t like that.
E16 was a feature-rich, but pretty bloated window manager. E17, when I first tried it some seven years ago, was very lean: I’d put it on a computer too underpowered for either Windows XP or the then-current version of either KDE or Gnome. All of them positively dragged.
E17 was not very stable, but it was small and fast, and its image viewer (AFAICT also discontinued) ran circles around GQview. Zooming huge photos in or out was instantaneous in E; GQview would take up to 10 seconds.

E17 has been a project where the developers insisted on doing things right, which I find very commendable. Everything that had proved to be sub-par, they’ve scrapped, replaced, redesigned. Being in a fairly small niche at least allows you to ignore dealing with deadlines and ship it when it’s done.

Today I have E17 running on my father’s ancient laptop. My stepmother can even play Zynga crap, the most resource-wasting Flash games I’ve ever seen, on a 1 GHz processor with 256 MB RAM. They are slow, but they actually load. Which they did not do under either Win XP or Kubuntu on the very same machine. E17 itself uses up around 30 MB RAM, no matter what kind of effects you load it up with. And it’s fast. Oh, it’s fast.

Re:Enlightenment's utility (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35044702)

It may have taken 10 years to 'get right' (or close to it) but the end result is, frankly, quite impressive.

Did it take 10 years to "get it right", or did it merely take 10 years for the competition to blast by in terms of bloat and overhead, making E17 look better simply because it hasn't gotten worse anywhere nearly as quickly? :)

They just need to be old enough to know how to work with X. If it is anything like they worked in the last millenia their code will show some deep understanding of the workings of the x protocol. Like amiga demo writers they work with the present stuff instead of calling for new protocols. Let's see how forwardings perform, because gnome/kde seem to be too localhost centric.

Re:Enlightenment's utility (1)

Short Circuit (52384) | more than 3 years ago | (#35045486)

I also haven't followed E development, but if 1.0 means "feature complete", then perhaps they simply reached their target? Or maybe they simply hit a baseline flexible enough that they can tack on whatever they like afterward, akin to how future "versions" of OpenGL use extension/capabilities listings.

Re:Enlightenment's utility (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35043954)

E17 was a buggy slow piece of crap. That's why no one wanted to use it! Let's not be revisionist about what the state of the project regardless of failed attempts of bling-bling. Leave that nonsense to apple zealots. What is impressive is the effort of people wanting to bring it out of the dark ages and run with it. Dedication like that is rare, and good luck to them.

Remove comments from RSS feed? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35044098)

Is there a way to remove the comments from the Slashdot RSS feed? Takes up a lot of time scrolling past all of them to get to the next news item in Reader. The ads are fine just the comments are annoying!

Re:Enlightenment's utility (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35044178)

Precisely how I feel about it! When I started to use E16 back in 1998(or something) it was a quite demanding window manager, but it had cool effects that I showed off to my windows and mac-buddies, they where all in awe. When the enlightenment-team start working on E17 I was fast downloading the source, compiling it, and was impressed by the slick look and feel of the GUI. I thought the new version would be ready within a year or two, but alas they kept changing the libraries and never seemed to get any closer to a release, so a left for KDE thining that the developers would give up eventually and the once so great Enlightenment would fade away. I was wrong! I don't know how, but somehow they kept the spark up and now we have a 1.0 release of the libraries.

My hat of to Rasterman and c:o!!!

Re:Enlightenment's utility (1)

raster (13531) | more than 3 years ago | (#35048764)

I have to thank you for the comment. Mostly because it is actually thoughtful and realistic. You actually followed history and development and though many people - even you, lost patience, you've come to see that the stubbornness of EFL development actually has paid off. It's achieved what it was meant to. :) Now we get to improve it even more while people can build things on top of a stable API.

Quick question: (5, Insightful)

lennier1 (264730) | more than 3 years ago | (#35043792)

If they want to promote a product that's essential to the UI of a desktop/handheld OS then why is their official site pretty much devoid of full-size images to give visitors a first impression?

Re:Quick question: (1)

Late Adopter (1492849) | more than 3 years ago | (#35044282)

Because as far as I can tell, E17 isn't actually out yet. This article is about a set of libraries E17 will depend on, none of which contain widgets or other graphical components.

Re:Quick question: (1)

X0563511 (793323) | more than 3 years ago | (#35044380)

Huh, that's odd:

Available Packages
Name : enlightenment
Arch : x86_64
Version : 0.16.999.050
Release : 6.fc13
Size : 5.9 M
Repo : fedora
Summary : Highly optimized and extensible desktop shell
URL : http://enlightenment.org/p.php?p=about/e17&l=en [enlightenment.org]
License : MIT
Description : Enlightenment 0.17 is desktop shell based on Enlightenment
                        : Foundation Libraries. It's highly optimized and provides extensive
                        : theming capabilities. A Desktop shell means it's a window manager
                        : plus a file manager, plus configuration utilitys all in one. It
                        : works reasonably fast even on old and low range computers,
                        : providing eye-candy environment.

Re:Quick question: (1)

Svartalf (2997) | more than 3 years ago | (#35044302)

Heh... Define "full size". If you're talking about the bunch that typically do Enlightenment as their main desktop environment, you're going to find 1920x1280 as a common resolution. Something that big's going to be hard to do "full size" not to mention the bandwidth overheads of this.

Re:Quick question: (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35044342)

Our application looks so good, we can't store its likeness in a screenshot, you'll have to install it and see for yourself! :)

Re:Quick question: (1)

omni123 (1622083) | more than 3 years ago | (#35046602)


I think he is referring to some easy to find links to screenshots which is obviously of little concern no matter the resolution of those using it. The definition of "full size" he is referring to is more like "doesn't feel like I forgot my telescope in my other pants".

There are a couple here [enlightenment.org] but they look nothing like the marketing material on the main page (and are almost 2 years old).

E fever (1)

Aizenmyou (1609627) | more than 3 years ago | (#35044338)

Been using E since the late 90s ever since I saw it in Mastering Linux. Although getting E17 to work used to be a chore, I found it's much easier to install no a days. Got it running flawlessly on an i7, a Core2 Duo, and an ancient P2120 (Transmeta Crusoe @ 933MHz). The only thing I miss is Entrance (Login Manager) :( Cheers to Raster and the E-Team!

Enlightenment (1)

93 Escort Wagon (326346) | more than 3 years ago | (#35044472)

Even way back before I'd defected to OS X, Enlightenment (0.16) was a visually amazing graphical environment - IMHO better in many ways than anything else out there, OS X included. From an end-user point of view, though, it was sometimes maddening the way they (well, probably mainly Raster) would plug along on 0.17 and these libraries, then decide to scrap everything and start pretty much from scratch on a different approach - that happened at least twice while I was a user, and I'd bet it's happened since I stopped really paying attention to the project. But it's great to see that they finally stuck to it and have brought the libraries to 1.0 - Enlightenment still has much to offer, and is still in some ways is still ahead of everything else. If I could drop it into place on my Mac and use it for everything - not just X11 apps - I'd probably still be running Enlightenment.

Duke Nuke 'Em Forever, this...what's next? (3, Funny)

Tumbleweed (3706) | more than 3 years ago | (#35044526)

Will the HURD finally be completed? Mass hysteria!

Well okay (3, Interesting)

MichaelSmith (789609) | more than 3 years ago | (#35044694)

I am a former openmoko user. I developed openmoko apps using EFL as well. There is a lot of stuff missing from EFL. A lot of stuff which is not documented. There are many situations where you just have to try something and if it doesn't work, try something else. A good component set will have documentation telling you what components can be embedded in other components. In many cased with EFL you have to go to the code or write a test to find out. Interoperability between components seems to have been developed on an "as needed" basis. A lot of the error messages written to stdout are unprofessionally written and uninformative. Its easy to generate a crash. I just can't see this going anywhere.

I'm ok with a new toolkit, but C is a mistake. (1)

master_p (608214) | more than 3 years ago | (#35047772)

These libraries are wrong on so many levels. It seems the E developers have not learned anything from the last 10 years of software development.

The programming language used is old and good for serious applications. Let's face the truth: C is good for kernels and device drivers, but it stinks as a general-purpose programming language. Macros, the void* type, manual memory management, C strings, init functions, OOP in C, etc are all things that hinter serious application development.

Re:I'm ok with a new toolkit, but C is a mistake. (1)

digitalsushi (137809) | more than 3 years ago | (#35048288)

Maybe the folks writing the software have gotten over their newbie gripes about the language.

Re:I'm ok with a new toolkit, but C is a mistake. (1)

rackeer (1607869) | more than 3 years ago | (#35048502)

I agree that C should not be the way to go for application programming. Developers should value their own time more than they value the computer's time, even more so that computers get so fast and interpreter implementations so good that the difference is hardly noticeable. When I am looking for applications to use and have the choice of one programmed in C/C++/C#/Java and one programmed in python, I'll choose python, because I assume that the code quality is better.

Re:I'm ok with a new toolkit, but C is a mistake. (1)

dvlhrns (1681218) | more than 3 years ago | (#35049528)

LMAO...Yea, let's make a window manager in python (because that's seems to be all people know these days) ... good luck with that.

Yeah, right. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35048112)

Next you're going to tell me Duke Nukem Forever is coming out.

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