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124 comments

Oh, I Get It (3, Funny)

DWMorse (1816016) | more than 3 years ago | (#35168094)

More power to the people, eh?

Re:Oh, I Get It (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35168566)

"Night Dragon" eh... what's with the damn chinks and ching-chang-chongs and their obsession with dragons? Yeah yeah, big lizard, flies, breathes fire ok I got it, so what now EVERYTHING has to be named after one?

Re:Oh, I Get It (1)

retchdog (1319261) | more than 3 years ago | (#35168610)

their dragons don't generally breathe fire.

Re:Oh, I Get It (0)

Dishevel (1105119) | more than 3 years ago | (#35168724)

The Chinese dragons are pretty much the laughing stock of the dragon world. More like snakes with itty-bitty wings.
They would have their ass handed to them by a proper dragon. Like Tiamat!
 

Re:Oh, I Get It (3, Informative)

spun (1352) | more than 3 years ago | (#35168844)

Tiamat was a Babylonian chaos monster and ocean goddess. No ancient texts described her as dragon-like, that is a D&D invention.

Though Tiamat is often described by modern authors as a sea serpent or dragon, no ancient texts exist in which there is a clear association with those kinds of creatures, and the identification is debated.[8] The Enûma Elish specifically states that Tiamat did give birth to dragons and serpents, but they are included among a larger and more general list of monsters including scorpion men and merpeople, none of which imply that any of the children resemble the mother or are even limited to aquatic creatures.

In the Enûma Elish her physical description includes a tail, a thigh, "lower parts" (which shake together), a belly, an udder, ribs, a neck, a head, a skull, eyes, nostrils, a mouth, and lips. She has insides (possibly "entrails"), a heart, arteries, and blood.

The strictly modern depiction of Tiamat as a multi-headed dragon was popularized in the 1970s as a fixture of the Dungeons & Dragons roleplaying game inspired by earlier sources associating Tiamat with later mythological characters, such as Lotan.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiamat [wikipedia.org]

Re:Oh, I Get It (1)

Culture20 (968837) | more than 3 years ago | (#35169382)

No wings. They walk on air and clouds. Regular dragons can't hover. Chinese dragons can stand in mid air.

They can hack 'em... (1)

Jeremiah Cornelius (137) | more than 3 years ago | (#35168666)

They already own 'em.

Obligatory: ( +1, Inflammatory) (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35168140)

All your BTU are belong to US.

Yours In Odessa,
K. Trout

Re: Obligatory: ( +1, Inflammatory) (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35168284)

Could you make up your own sign off?

You're not Kurt Vonnegut. Even if you were Kurt Vonnegut, Jr. or the third, it's just not cool, dude. Besides, don't you want to have your own voice? Your own mark? Piggy backing on someone great is just so .... common.

Re: Obligatory: ( +1, Inflammatory) (2)

Jeremiah Cornelius (137) | more than 3 years ago | (#35168632)

Lighten up. He's just makin' an in-joke.

Yours,
Laszlo Toth

Command And Conquer (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35168238)

China will grow larger!

Invent it. Steal it. Whos going to call them on it?
Sure won't be us. We like our cheap made in china crap.
Since it's all we can afford now anyway.

Unsophisticated intrusion methods (4, Insightful)

cappp (1822388) | more than 3 years ago | (#35168246)

So the article detailing unsophisticated intrusion methods itself requires you to allow cookies before it's readable? Firefox, Opera, and IE all open a blank page if you refuse to accept their little offerings. So English majors...it is ironic?

Oh and bonus points for throwing a pdf in there too.

Re:Unsophisticated intrusion methods (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35169110)

cappp = awesome! ;)

Re:Unsophisticated intrusion methods (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35169312)

Anyone that cares about cookies for "security" or whatever is a moron that has been duped by FUD.

Disabling Javascript, sure, but cookies? Lolidiot

Pylons (5, Funny)

xMrFishx (1956084) | more than 3 years ago | (#35168256)

...and all that was found were the words: "You must construct additional pylons".

Re:Pylons (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35168484)

NIIIIICCCCEEEE!!!!

Re:Pylons (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35168574)

Nice? They were Chinese hackers, not Korean.

Re:Pylons (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35168730)

Maybe quote from C&C Generals?

Hacker:
"Laptop in hand"
"I can cripple their facilities'
'Batteries charged'
'Uplink cables ready'
'There's always a way in'
'No system is safe"

Re:Pylons (1)

bradblog2 (1385609) | more than 3 years ago | (#35168846)

What does that have to do with anything the person just said? Chambliss Preibus!!

Re:Pylons (1)

xMrFishx (1956084) | more than 3 years ago | (#35168972)

It was the note left behind by the Koreans who got there first.

translation (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35168260)

"Chinese hackels wolking legural business houls shifts store sensitive interrectual propelty from enelgy companies fol as rong as foul yeals using lerativery unsophisticated intlusion methods in an opelation dubbed 'Night Dlagon,' accolding to a new leport from seculity vendol McAfee."

Why is China even on the Internet? (-1, Flamebait)

snowraver1 (1052510) | more than 3 years ago | (#35168280)

Seriously... Let's just remove China from the Internet. Let's take back the millions of IPv4 addresses and solve several problems with one action.

Re:Why is China even on the Internet? (0)

rainmouse (1784278) | more than 3 years ago | (#35168402)

Seriously... Let's just remove China from the Internet. Let's take back the millions of IPv4 addresses and solve several problems with one action.

When the west 'share' IP its exercising freedom of information. When the East steal IP, its piracy! [youtube.com]

Excellent if... (1)

jeffliott (1558799) | more than 3 years ago | (#35168304)

the secrets stolen improved Chinese efficiency (sorry IP holders!). Terrible (for everyone else) if it allows China to consume more fuel. TFA doesn't provide much detail on the nature of the secrets.

Re:Excellent if... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35170150)

what possible sensitive IP would a energy company have? Most energy suppliers/producers in the US are decades out of date technology-wise, and they dont directly compete, so whats the point?

Operation Dumbledore (-1, Flamebait)

LilGuy (150110) | more than 3 years ago | (#35168362)

The Chinese name their operations just as moronic as the Americans do huh? Or was the operation named by Americans?

Re:Operation Dumbledore (1)

retchdog (1319261) | more than 3 years ago | (#35168494)

except for them it's typical. for example, a turkey is (literally translated as) a "fiery chicken".

Re:Operation Dumbledore (1)

Sulphur (1548251) | more than 3 years ago | (#35170388)

except for them it's typical. for example, a turkey is (literally translated as) a "fiery chicken".

Automatic translation from engineering Chinese kept showing " water goat." Turned out to be hydraulic ram.

Operation Night Dragon (4, Insightful)

The O Rly Factor (1977536) | more than 3 years ago | (#35168388)

Sounds more like the name of a McAfee marketing campaign.

Re:Operation Night Dragon (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35170860)

It would have to be an Intel marketing campaign [intel.com] .

Just how sensitive is it? (2)

jfengel (409917) | more than 3 years ago | (#35168454)

The "sensitive intellectual property" turns out to be 18,384 files that employees had ripped from CD and DVD. The MPAA and RIAA estimate it's collectively worth $835,682,912, but I think they're exaggerating.

Example of Sensitive Info (1)

raftpeople (844215) | more than 3 years ago | (#35169588)

Critical information has been stolen, for example:
"Jones Residence,
Your power consumption January 2011 was 3.2% higher than January 2010.
The Power Company"

Now wait a second... (3, Insightful)

Lloyd_Bryant (73136) | more than 3 years ago | (#35168456)

From TFA:

Further, the attacks appeared to originate from computers on IP (Internet protocol) addresses in Beijing, between 9 a.m. to 5 p.m. local time there, suggesting that the culprits were regular company employees rather than freelance or unprofessional hackers, McAfee said in its report.

Or maybe those responsible has pwned some computers at a business, which were only turned on between 9 and 5. While McAfee's conclusion is possible, I wouldn't consider it likely without some other evidence supporting it.

Re:Now wait a second... (1)

KhabaLox (1906148) | more than 3 years ago | (#35169350)

Or maybe those responsible has pwned some computers at a business, which were only turned on between 9 and 5. While McAfee's conclusion is possible, I wouldn't consider it likely without some other evidence supporting it.

You deserve your mod points for insightful. However, I would point out Occam's Razor. Who would desire to steal sensitive information from energy companies? If you controlled a botnet made up of business/government PCs in Beijing, would you point it at energy companies, or something else? And if these attacks were coming from compromised computers, wouldn't they be more geographically and chronologically widespread? Most businesses leave PCs on overnight (I think), though perhaps China is more energy conscious. And I would expect to see IPs from all over China and/or East Asia at least, if it were a botnet of sorts.

I'm going to hypothesize that the attackers are connected to the Chinese government.

Re:Now wait a second... (3, Interesting)

Nethemas the Great (909900) | more than 3 years ago | (#35169366)

Since when did the Chinese have such lax work hours...?

Stay classy, China (3, Interesting)

benjfowler (239527) | more than 3 years ago | (#35168474)

The mainland Chinese really will do anything to win. I've seen it repeatedly with my own eyes. I think it's got something to do with having to deal with the cognitive dissonace of thinking you're the master race, while nursing a massive inferiority complex viz-a-viz the West.

What I find amusing, is their apparently thin skins -- although when it comes to doing all these totally immoral things and losing tons of face, they don't show any shame at all.

Maybe the only way to deal with this kind of moral squalor we see so often from the mainlanders, is to trumpet their misdeeads from the hilltops as loudly as possible; red Chinee have no morals, but they DO have a honour/shame culture, and will avoid doing the wrong thing if they will be called out on it.

Re:Stay classy, China (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35168556)

a nation of hypocrites

Re:Stay classy, China (0)

jfengel (409917) | more than 3 years ago | (#35168640)

Us? Or them?

Re:Stay classy, China (1)

rtfa-troll (1340807) | more than 3 years ago | (#35169448)

yes.

Re:Stay classy, China (0)

JonySuede (1908576) | more than 3 years ago | (#35169814)

both

Re: Stay ignorant, OP (0, Troll)

XiaoMing (1574363) | more than 3 years ago | (#35168606)

In Eastern Civilization, incongruence is not as excruciating as in Western Civilization. Our civilization wants things in order.

http://www.examiner.com/relationship-psychology-in-mobile/cognitive-dissonance-decision-making [examiner.com]

Actually, it's been quite thoroughly studied and shown that the inability to deal with cognitive dissonance is much more of an issue in western cultures than eastern cultures. The Chinese vocabulary even has more words to describe grey areas and situations, and it's been shown those thinking with within that logical framework are better equipped to deal with the grey area than oh say, yourself.

But don't take my word for it! Just reread your own excellent solution you ironically drew right after taking a grandstand on a culture and topic you barely seem to understand, much less see within yourself.

Maybe the only way to deal with this kind of moral squalor we see so often from the mainlanders, is to trumpet their misdeeads from the hilltops as loudly as possible; red Chinee have no morals, but they DO have a honour/shame culture, and will avoid doing the wrong thing if they will be called out on it.

The only way (your understanding of political nuance right there shows you'd do very well in politics! Probably in the Palin 2012 campaign), is to trumpet from hilltops. As loudly as possible, mind you! They [the Chinese] have no morals, (no doubt about that), but they DO have a weakness. That way, we can do this one thing and get this one result.

Yup, airtight and flawless. Not one Chink (see what I did there?) in your armor.

Re: Stay ignorant, OP (2)

chrisG23 (812077) | more than 3 years ago | (#35168850)

Aside from the errors in the OPs post that you rightfully pointed out, and the flaw in his reasoning, you are saying that he/she is incorrect in his thesis, and that China (government and people's mentality) does not implicitly condone spying on other countries to conduct industrial espionage? Because it looks to me like they do.

Re: Stay ignorant, OP (0)

XiaoMing (1574363) | more than 3 years ago | (#35168898)

I'm sorry.. but I think you literally just said something along the lines of:

"Aside from everything you wrote in your post being true, I'm disagreeing with something that was completely not mentioned nor touched upon in your post"

Re: Stay ignorant, OP (1)

chrisG23 (812077) | more than 3 years ago | (#35169624)

I apologize, I assumed that you were both disagreeing with the thesis of the parent post (China conducts industrial espionage on a regular basis, and does very little to stop it) as well as the arguments/analysis/reasoning the parent poster was using. In light of your presented information, I find myself not agreeing with the parent poster's arguments/analysis/reasoning, and applaud you for bringing forward information.

And I now notice you did not say one thing about the thesis, just the parent post's arguments, so my reply was a little hasty. So then the question remains, why does China (as a government, and as an assumed general consensus of the Chinese population) seem to condone conducting industrial espionage on the rest of the world? My own argument is pretty simple: they want to win.

Re: Stay ignorant, OP (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35170972)

Blaming China as a whole is as illogical as blaming Australia for Wikileaks. It's not just wrong, but hypocritical. The NSA does more industrial espionage than any 2-bit Chinese firm.

Re: Stay ignorant, OP (1)

XiaoMing (1574363) | more than 3 years ago | (#35171088)

Haha no problem. From the looks of the moderation, it's apparently bash the Chinaman day regardless.

Re:Stay classy, China (5, Insightful)

DigiShaman (671371) | more than 3 years ago | (#35168634)

It's called the Cultural Revolution and it officially started in 1966. While it was mainly toward purging capitalism, it was in fact much much more damaging. Essentially, 3000+ years of Chinese culture was WIPED OUT. In effect, all modern Chinese are suffering from cultural amnesia. An entire civilization "rebooted" back to the very beginning except for language and minor customs. From a Western POV, China post-revolution is a new nation formed in the year 1966. Quite young.

If you're like me, you get the feeling that you're walking among a nation ran like the Lord of the Flies mentality when walking the streets of any major city. No manners, no trust, no honor, and lots of back stabbing politics from friends and co-workers. At best, family is all you can rely on in that nation. Quite sad!

Re:Stay classy, China (1)

Intrepid imaginaut (1970940) | more than 3 years ago | (#35168864)

Is there a will to find their roots again? Can they relearn their customs from Taiwan? Should they?

Re:Stay classy, China (2)

DigiShaman (671371) | more than 3 years ago | (#35168988)

It's all up to the Chinese people. But first Beijing needs to stop being so imperialistic over the other provinces. The vanity and news propaganda that comes from the CCP is so obvious, it's insulting to most Chinese that can afford to watch TV. My guess is that they'll either find their roots again, or create a more enlightened culture that mimics other neighboring nations...including Japan if you can believe it.

Re:Stay classy, China (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35170338)

I have heard, not infrequently, from both Chinese and Taiwanese friends that the "true" Chinese culture lies in Taiwan, and if it exists at all on a large scale in the mainland then it is in the south(east). I guess the south, like in so many other countries (USA included), is a little bit more traditional and respect so much the government as the North(east -- where Beijing is).

Re:Stay classy, China (3, Interesting)

sdguero (1112795) | more than 3 years ago | (#35169302)

It can definitely make it difficult to do business. 75% of my engineering team is in Beijing. Lucky for us engineers, your reputation, salary, and job rely on the ability to produce accurate, repeatable, results. It has nothing to do with politics, cultural stammering, or hurt feelings. If they tried to move technical support or anything other than engineering over there, we'd be in deep shit. Similarly, if it wasn't for the US team working closely with them, we'd be in deep shit.

It has gotten to the point where China has first crack at everything, then provides their results and notes to US engineers, then we find holes that get fixed, and give it back to China to do again. usually after 2 or 3 rounds of this we have a solid product. It probably takes 3 times longer than doing it with an all US team and we have to deal with weird cultural things (like everyone over there having inflated titles and egos), but total labor costs are way cheaper and Chinese engineers are smart people. IMO, it's pretty much a wash vs doing it all in the USA.

Re:Stay classy, China (2)

shawb (16347) | more than 3 years ago | (#35169638)

The best description I've heard is: China is what you get when government is run by engineers. The United States is what you get when government is run by lawyers.

But seriously, the Chinese government tends to have scientists and engineers overrepresented in their officials, while the United States has virtually none save for a handfull of MDs.

Re:Stay classy, China (1)

MasaMuneCyrus (779918) | more than 3 years ago | (#35170358)

While what you say is true now, that is changing rapidly. The People's Republic of China is a relatively new country, and almost all of the people that made up the government were military officers, economists, engineers, geologists, etc. The next generation of leaders that are both up-and-coming and already in office, however, are not only simply career politicians, but they have nothing at all to do with the military.

Re:Stay classy, China (3, Interesting)

hey! (33014) | more than 3 years ago | (#35169960)

I think you overestimate the effectiveness of the Cultural Revolution. True, many priceless artifacts were lost, and worse many irreplaceable intellectuals.. But you simply can't wipe out a nation's cultural memory in ten years.

Look at it this way: Deng Xiao Peng was 62 when the Cultural Revolution started, and during it he was purged not once, but twice. After Mao died, the party turned to Deng because of his experience in dealing with the economic chaos from the Great Leap Forward. They turned to 72 year old Deng because of his experience *before* the Cultural Revolution. Deng was *hated* by the supporters of the Cultural Revolution.The Red Guards even threw his son off the roof of a four story building.

So that should be enough to show that the Cultural Revolution did not succeed in destroying everything that came before. It would be true to say that it transformed China, and not necessarily for the better, but it would be a mistake to depict it as successful on its own terms. One of its ironic effects it had was to inculcate a strong distaste for "Mao Zedong Thought".

Re:Stay classy, China (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35170064)

They got it worse than that. Not only do they have no history, but they had the Great Leap Forward which ended up being nothing more than a government mandated decade-long famine. Anyone who survived and had kids did so by simply not caring about anyone but themselves and their immediate family. THOSE are the people who raised the current generation.

Re:Stay classy, China (1)

Wolfling1 (1808594) | more than 3 years ago | (#35170960)

Sounds kinda feudal to me...

Re:Stay classy, China (2)

wan9xu (1829310) | more than 3 years ago | (#35168684)

i'm a chinese mainlander, and i endorse this message.

Re:Stay classy, China (4, Insightful)

Local ID10T (790134) | more than 3 years ago | (#35168778)

It is not immoral to the Chinese. The only shame is in getting caught red-handed. If it can't be conclusively proven, then it is not relevant. Winning is winning.

shame vs. guilt (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35169028)

The mainland Chinese really will do anything to win. I've seen it repeatedly with my own eyes. I think it's got something to do with having to deal with the cognitive dissonace of thinking you're the master race, while nursing a massive inferiority complex viz-a-viz the West.

What I find amusing, is their apparently thin skins -- although when it comes to doing all these totally immoral things and losing tons of face, they don't show any shame at all.

As a general stereotype:

The West generally works on the concept of guilt: you feel bad internally via your own conscience. Other societies on this planet work on the concept of shame: it doesn't matter if you feel internally that the action was okay, but rather you feel bad from external voices.

Of course the West has the concept of social/peer pressure, and the East (?) does have the concept of a conscience, but it's a matter of degree. In the West the rebel is often accepted, but in the East not so much.

(At least that's always been my Reader's Digest version of the concepts.)

Re:Stay classy, China (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35169150)

Anyone who says "viz-a-viz" is a smarmy pseudointellectual bastard who loves the smell of his own farts. No exceptions.

Re:Stay classy, China (1)

GooberToo (74388) | more than 3 years ago | (#35171138)

Anyone who says "viz-a-viz" is a smarmy pseudointellectual bastard who loves the smell of his own farts. No exceptions.

Ummm....did you just say it? Perhaps you're right after all!

Re:Stay classy, China (1)

quenda (644621) | more than 3 years ago | (#35169214)

the cognitive dissonace of thinking you're the master race, while nursing a massive inferiority complex viz-a-viz the West.

Not a classy post. Remember the Chinese have fresh unpleasant memories of a neighboring nation that really did consider themselves the master race, at least in the region, killing millions of "inferior" Chinese civilians. That other nation has since learned both pride and humility, and taken its place in the developed world community.

Re:Stay classy, China (3, Interesting)

sdguero (1112795) | more than 3 years ago | (#35169564)

The truth isn't always classy. Have you ever been to China? Here is some reading:
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,187654,00.html [time.com]
http://edition.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/asiapcf/east/05/13/asia.whitening/ [cnn.com]
http://www.newsweek.com/2008/07/25/china-s-agony-of-defeat.html [newsweek.com]

Don't get me wrong. I like China. I like the food, the women, the Chinese sense of humor. It's more my style than the USA nowadays. But the parent poster is dead on. Modern Chinese have all kinds of complexes about their role in the world.

Re:Stay classy, China (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35169682)

That doesn't change the fact that the Han Chinese are extremely racist. The existence of a term for the "perspective that regards China to be the center of civilization and superior to all other nations" [wikipedia.org] should be quite telling. Note, I am not claiming that they are more racist than any other group. I'd guess that, in fact, they carry similar levels of prejudice as most other nations, ethnic groups, sports fans, academic elites, etc etc etc.

Re:Stay classy, China (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35170416)

Not a classy post. Remember the Chinese have fresh unpleasant memories of a neighboring nation that really did consider themselves the master race, at least in the region, killing millions of "inferior" Chinese civilians. That other nation has since learned both pride and humility, and taken its place in the developed world community.

Yes, there have been many cases like this throughout history. The one thing that so many countries that behave like China have in common is that they learn humility and respect only after legitimately expending their entire national and losing everything in an unimaginably painful war.

China, on the other hand, is going to have to learn the humility, respect, and leadership of the world leader it so aggressively wants to be without a gigantic war, because world wars aren't how we like to do things in the modern era. How it's going to do that, short of actually attaining the early 1990s USA-like world hegemony that it seeks, is a good question.

Re:Stay classy, China (2)

sdguero (1112795) | more than 3 years ago | (#35169444)

Just wanted to share a personal story that totally goes with your statements.

5 years ago I worked for a small company with around 20 engineers that hired a married couple that moved to the USA from mainland China. They both had PhDs from Beijing's premier university (it's name escapes me) and were very smart. They were hired to perform the job that 2 lab techs (one was me) and 1 intern had been doing for the previous 2-3 years. Namely to collect electrical and thermal efficiency data on computer systems. At the time, we had implemented somewhat advanced automation tools and had a pretty neat setup going to collect data.

When the couple started, I immediately took the lead trying to train them on our current methodologies. It was a NIGHTMARE. They refused to listen to me, as I was a "technician" and consistently interrupted when I provided explanations with forceful statements like "No! That is not right! You are not doing it right! This data is inaccurate!!!!" and would then start lecturing on really simple stuff like EMI shielding etc. that really had nothing to do with what I was showing them. Long story short, I attempted, unsuccessfully to train them for 2 months, then handed over all thermal and electrical testing. The "massive inferiority complex" was so intense that they wouldn't even use the test instruments we tried to train them on. Instead, they tried to purchase new stuff (with some success) that was orders of magnitude more expensive and that they simply didn't need. Their manager (not my manager) was a dolt so he did nothing to rectify, and in fact fueled the flames. For a year we essentially had zero data on our products in those respects, unless I snuck into the lab and ran covert tests for my manager under their noses. When downsizing hit, they were the first let go and I assumed their responsibilities.

Looking back today, I still don't think there is anything I could have done differently. In fact if I went through the same thing again, I would probably just give up and walk away after a couple weeks, knowing that there is no way I could overcome the egos.

Re:Stay classy, China (1)

Renraku (518261) | more than 3 years ago | (#35169760)

That's what doesn't make sense with all the overseas contracting of things. These companies, if they took a little time to read up on it, would find that EVERYTHING that gets sent to Chinese factories ends up competing against their own products. Same or very similar designs for half the price. But wait, there's more. They'll often end up paying like $5 for a component that costs $4.98 and is vastly inferior to the $5 one the paid for, leading to horrible product quality. And if that wasn't enough, they'll end up having their designs improved upon and either sold back to them or sold to other consumers for a lower price than the original design they sent over.

My trumpet (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35169790)

Yesterday, and three times every week, I go in for Dialysis. Part of the process is getting injected with Heparin. All of the world's Heparin is derived from pig intestines processed in China. In 2008, at least one Chinese supplier intentionality adulterated their Heparin rich extract with a sulphated Chondroitin, a chemical whose main claim to fame seems to be that is mimics Heparin in FDA tests. This killed 19, as reported in the New York Times. This resulted in an ongoing law suite against the importer/refiner, Baxter Pharmaceutical. The other US supplier, APP Pharmaceutical told me, "Raw materials are from China, which is where all Heparin manufactures receive their materials." After a little help from MIT and Wash U, the FDA now has better tests. Somehow, I am not satisfied with the quality of the drugs that I get 3 times a week. But between Big Pharma and China, I don't have any immediate options.

Stay classy, US (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35169850)

The US or A really will do anything to win. I've seen it repeatedly with my own eyes. I think it's got something to do with having to deal with the [...] thinking they're the master race and nursing a massive superiority complex viz-a-viz the entire world.

FTFY

Re:Stay classy, China (2)

Solandri (704621) | more than 3 years ago | (#35170082)

The mainland Chinese really will do anything to win. I've seen it repeatedly with my own eyes. I think it's got something to do with having to deal with the cognitive dissonace of thinking you're the master race, while nursing a massive inferiority complex viz-a-viz the West.

What I find amusing, is their apparently thin skins -- although when it comes to doing all these totally immoral things and losing tons of face, they don't show any shame at all.

It's cultural, and it has nothing to do with thinking they're the master race. It actually applies to nearly all of Asia, not just China, which makes me suspect it's rooted in Confucianism.

In Western culture, business is seen as something outside of regular social circles. It's something necessary to put food on the table, something that has to be done but shouldn't be a high priority in your life. Someone who prioritizes their job over (say) their girlfriend/wife is seen as an insensitive dolt with his priorities screwed up. As such, industrial espionage, while it happens, is generally frowned upon and considered immoral - you're sacrificing a social moral to accomplish a business objective. That just strikes many Westerners as something like running into your burning house to save your computer, while leaving your pet rabbit to die.

In Eastern culture, business is seen as an extension of your regular social circles (others being family and country). Just as you are expected to do whatever it takes to feed your family, and whatever it takes to defend your country, you are also expected to do whatever it takes to help your company. Industrial espionage is not only accepted, it's expected. If your boss asks you to steal another company's or country's secrets and you refuse, expect to get fired, and expect zero sympathy from others. It's part of the reason corruption and bribery are still so rampant in Asian countries. Those people are simply maximizing the potential of their position and social circle, the welfare of others be damned.

You assume that they know that they're doing something immoral and should be ashamed about it, but in that culture it's not considered immoral and the shame would be in refusing to do it. Any Western company doing business with/in China would be well-advised to understand this. The Chinese probably can't believe their luck that Western companies are so stupid to think that they can freely share technology with Chinese companies and expect their ideas not to be stolen/copied because of some Western moral or IP law.

Re:Stay classy, China (3, Interesting)

victorhooi (830021) | more than 3 years ago | (#35170302)

heya,

Hmm, as a Chinese person (admittedly overseas born), I'm a bit uncomfortable with the idea that culturally we're somehow immoral.

However, while a bit of a generalisation, I do see your logic. *sigh*. And from experience with dealing with other Chinese, particularly mainlanders, you do see the effects at least, that anything seems to go, as long as you win.

Another thing you might want to bear in mind is the idea in Confucianism of there being a hierachy of loyalties. One thing that I was taught before was that if you had to lie to the police to protect say, your father, or your boss, that was allowed under our culture, and in fact actively encouraged. It was never suggested that it was a moral quandary, or that it was anything but black and white.

I don't know what the Slashdot groupthink on this is, but in my mind, the rule of law, and what's "right" should usually take precedence over some weird network of loyalties.

However, the above might give a little more context to your idea that eschewing morals to get ahead, or help your company get ahead is considered acceptable under Chinese culture.

Cheers,
Victor

Re:Stay classy, China (1)

MasaMuneCyrus (779918) | more than 3 years ago | (#35170678)

I appreciate any bit of opinion from a Chinese person that helps me better understand China; it's very hard, from my experience, to learn what anyone from the People's Republic actually thinks about any given sensitive subject unless you're really, really good friends with them. I imagine that's probably because they spend their whole lives in an environment where you're not supposed to ever say out loud that the authority is wrong, nor are you ever supposed to step out of line.

But again, I think that the more people like you that can comment on these stories the better. What with the astroturfing army [boingboing.net] and the "angry youth" being seemingly the only kind of Chinese people on the internet, about the only insight into China and Chinese cultural that most of us ignorant Westerners can get is filtered through Taiwanese or Chinese ex-pat opinions of the PRC and its people.

From what I, personally, have experienced, though, Chinese people seem to consistently be extremely hospital, caring people that welcome you as a friend and will help you when you're in need. At the same time, however, they also seem to be ruthless, uncaring and unforgiving monsters that will stop at nothing to get ahead in business.

To most Westerners, I think that those two kinds of behaviors -- caring on a personal level, evil on a business level -- are contradictory. From what you say, though, there's nothing contradictory about that kind of behavior at all to a Chinese person, and it's just business?

Re:Stay classy, China (1)

ElectricTurtle (1171201) | more than 3 years ago | (#35170602)

It's cultural, and it has nothing to do with thinking they're the master race. It actually applies to nearly all of Asia, not just China, which makes me suspect it's rooted in Confucianism.

Chinese xenophobia and attitude of cultural/racial superiority predates Master Kong. Even during the Hundred Schools of Thought era that held sway with the scholarly class in pre-Qin Dynasty China there was not one movement historically (that I know of) that challenged any of the superiority of the Chinese self-identity compared to other races/cultures. The very fact that, as you say yourself, the attitude is not unique to China among Asian cultures indicates that it likely not a result of Confucianism given that Confucianism's influence never spread much further than Korea and Vietnam (though a reasonable case can be made that it directly influenced Shintoism in Japan).

US "stealing" from China? (1)

skywatcher2501 (1608209) | more than 3 years ago | (#35168646)

So the news is always, China "steals" from the US. Is this really the rule, and the US never "steals" from China? Is it really that black-and-white?

Re:US "stealing" from China? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35168708)

Yes. Have you heard of US Treasury bills?

Re:US "stealing" from China? (1)

LowG1974 (1021485) | more than 3 years ago | (#35168952)

So the news is always, China "steals" from the US. Is this really the rule, and the US never "steals" from China?

The US can't steal from China, Chinese hax0rs are too 1337!

Re:US "stealing" from China? (1)

sdguero (1112795) | more than 3 years ago | (#35169314)

Just their women. And cheap labor. Oh, and their food. I love me some dim sum. :)

Re:US "stealing" from China? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35170524)

More or less, yes. Of course everyone spies on everyone, but the US is not likely to need to steal much technological know-how from China at the present time.

All of the big Asian countries have gone through their stages of Japanese-like development. Japan started with their cheap clone export economy, and everybody hated them. After some time, it finally moved from cheap clones to high quality clones. Then it went to improving on the original design that it took. After that, it started inventing its own highly advanced things.

South Korea, for instance, has also passed the cheap clones era, and is now either at the end of the high quality clones area or recently entered the era of inventing its own things. Notice the past generation of Hyundais and Kias -- they no longer look like they're made up entirely of a random assortment of Japanese or German rival designs. Nowadays, their initial quality is at Japanese levels. Whether or not their longevity can beat the Japanese makers remains to be seen, but it probably will match Japan in the not-too-distant-future.

From what I can tell, China is still in the cheap cloning stage, but it's rapidly getting to the high quality clone stage (and a couple of its companies do make great products, already). It'll eventually begin to take small steps to innovate, and start producing some awesome and unique stuff and we'll all benefit. And given their population and long tradition of entrepreneurship, I bet there will be lots of innovation.

When that time comes, there might be some stealing by the US side. However, one thing that differs is that the CIA and US government will not be stealing technology and giving it to its own companies, as well as the funding those companies' R&D on the stolen technology. The US government does not hack into Toyota's systems and give all of their financial and engineering data to Ford. That is exactly what China does, however; and not only do they not see anything wrong with that, but they think that it's a superior model to the one that all highly advanced nations operate under. "Morals" be damned -- I guess they're relative, after all -- all the Chinese government sees is their state-sponsored company model's tremendous successes.

Style points (4, Funny)

PopeRatzo (965947) | more than 3 years ago | (#35168668)

"Operation Night Dragon"?

Wait a minute, you mean the Chinese hackers are now naming their operations? These guys were probably harvesting gold in WoW a few months ago, and now they're rock stars.

The Internet is amazing.

Re:Style points (1)

Pontiac (135778) | more than 3 years ago | (#35169664)

I find it funny that "Operation Night Dragon" was conducted during daytime business house..

Re:Style points (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35170058)

timezones are tricky

WTF is CIA doing? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35168832)

Has it come to the point now that we also have to outsource our spy services to the Chinese as well?
Why isn't the CIA stealing anything?

Re:WTF is CIA doing? (1)

c0lo (1497653) | more than 3 years ago | (#35169890)

Why isn't the CIA stealing anything?

Oh but they do. Just that, in times of economic trouble, cheaper to steal some info about their own citizens... you know? doing them a favor in not putting a pressure on the budget.

This can't be coincidence. (1)

olsmeister (1488789) | more than 3 years ago | (#35168858)

CERT [wikipedia.org] is putting this out there at the same time the government is trying to get permission to institute an internet kill switch [slashdot.org] ? Sounds like they're trying to scare everyone so that there is less resistance to this...

McAfee (2)

SnarfQuest (469614) | more than 3 years ago | (#35168884)

Ok, it tool McAfee 4 years to discover this was happening. Does that really make you feel good about using them for your internet security?

The Chinese (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35169016)

Don't trust them.

Re:The Chinese (1)

MasaMuneCyrus (779918) | more than 3 years ago | (#35170546)

Most of the nicest, most caring people I've ever met are Chinese. All the Chinese from the mainland that I know are extremely hospitable, and will always help you out if you need something.

However, you probably shouldn't trust any Chinese companies backed by the PRC government with any valuable information. Or if you do trust them, know that the state companies have no loyalty to your company and they are always looking for a way to get ahead.

Green Info, prolly (1)

catmistake (814204) | more than 3 years ago | (#35169100)

"Chinese hackers working regular business hours shifts stole sensitive intellectual property from energy companies for as long as four years...

Bbbuuuut as it turns out, most of the information energy companies have been working with o'er the past decade is about how to avoid expensive pollution fines, dealing with inhereted lawsuits, and technology geared toward making energy production cleaner and greener... so chances are the information is completely worthless to the Chinese for another hundred years or so.

Of what value? (1)

currently_awake (1248758) | more than 3 years ago | (#35169192)

I don't see how the gov of china (we always blame the gov for anything happening in/from china) could benefit from this. This isn't banking data or military or trade secrets, it's power use/distribution stuff. Has anyone any idea on what you could use this for?

Re:Of what value? (1)

KhabaLox (1906148) | more than 3 years ago | (#35169452)

If you knew how to damage, disrupt, or otherwise cause havoc with the American energy grid (say, by using something like Stuxnet), and you were an enemy of America, don't you think that would be valuable?

Counter-argument: Attacking the US power grid is an economic attack, and the trade relationship between the US and China is such that we mostly sink or swim together.

Counter to the counter: Is that true? China's GDP kept growing [tradingeconomics.com] through the Great Recession, albeit at a slower pace.

Disclaimer: I did not read TFA. Which companies were targeted? Were they energy companies involved in trading energy or creating energy, or something else?

Re:Of what value? (1)

plopez (54068) | more than 3 years ago | (#35169854)

Suppose you have a rapidly growing economy and know you will need to rapidly expand your power grid. How do you engineer a robust modern power grid? How do you finance it? What support industries are required? How do you train personnel who will design and maintain it? How do you bring together management teams who can manage not only the expansion of the grid but the day-to-day operations? What new technologies are available to help you create a more efficient grid? What sort of automation is there to help manage the grid?

It makes sense to me. Power is a strategic resource.

will the Chinese code have the same bug (1)

Joe The Dragon (967727) | more than 3 years ago | (#35169940)

will the Chinese code have the same bug that triggered the 2003 blackout?

Re:Of what value? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35170130)

Did you read any of the other coverage???

They were downloading bid packages and oil field operations financial info.

The bid documents (and internal analysis) would be especially damaging for western firms to have leak out to Chinese competitors.

Re:Green Info, prolly (1)

plopez (54068) | more than 3 years ago | (#35169882)

see my reply to currently_awake. It may have more uses than that.

lol (4, Funny)

Charliemopps (1157495) | more than 3 years ago | (#35169136)

If McAfee discovers your companies being hacked, you know your own security must be absolutely horrible. It's like Snooki uncovering a major terrorist plot.

How useful is this data? (1)

cyberzade (1862830) | more than 3 years ago | (#35169586)

Lets presume that article tells the facts. How useful would this information be to the Chinese? Are they capable of digesting this? Are they gathering this data for the sake of gathering this data? There is no deliberation about the possible or actual damages done.

I R STEAL (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35169844)

ya look the oil is over there
quick get that data , like um ya this be real tight lipped shite DONT tel no one you haxored it

breaking news from the IT world (2)

nimbius (983462) | more than 3 years ago | (#35170238)

security company McAfee has just discovered evil [insert nation here] hackers are attempting to [steal |destroy | shut down] valuable [information | infrastructure | systems ] in [insert high profile industry segment here] with [simple | sophisticated] hacking methods this [today | week | year]. to protect yourselves you must act immediately and purchase our products and services in a timely, recurring, and unending fashion.

Well that explains it (1)

kelemvor4 (1980226) | more than 3 years ago | (#35170390)

No wonder wow gold prices have been so high for the past few years. All the farmers have been preoccupied with less profitable information farming.
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