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Subtle Cyber Attacks Could Tilt Global Economies

Soulskill posted more than 3 years ago | from the rounding-fractions-of-cents dept.

Crime 51

wiredmikey writes "A subtle, yet powerfully destructive force of electronic attacks may be working slowly and silently to disrupt elements of the world's market-based economies. Recent cyber-attacks on the European Emissions Trading Scheme shut down that exchange's carbon market just a few weeks ago. Along with the fear of lights-out DDoS attacks that has traditionally stalked electronic markets, and logically still does, new types of attacks by subtle manipulation could slowly turn electronic markets on their heads by corrupting their very legitimacy. What's worse? Attacking someone's borders, or slowly disrupting and degrading confidence in their entire national economic well-being?"

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And what part of stock market is 'market' again ? (3, Interesting)

unity100 (970058) | more than 3 years ago | (#35181214)

stock market has gone way ahead itself, and now has a life on its own, loosely tied to real economy thats going on. money is made there without making any real impact on anything on the economy, money lost. appallingly, when money lost, it affects the economy through morale. when big gains are made, everything goes as it is. not to mention the horrible scam of 2008 and its effects.

Re:And what part of stock market is 'market' again (2)

ColdWetDog (752185) | more than 3 years ago | (#35181282)

Doesn't really matter for the purposes of this argument (that nefarious persons are subtly manipulating the market to sow fear, uncertainty and doubt). If the various markets move enough money, then manipulating the markets can cause problems.

My problem with the supposition that 'hackers' are trying to destabilize western economies by mucking with electronic markets is that it's too uncontrollable - unless you plan on doing something organized like take down the NYSE and the Nippon index (??) simultaneously, simply screwing around ala knocking out the European Carbon Market trading doesn't do a whole lot. Especially in light of the fact that the organizers of said markets seem to be hell bent on destroying everything by themselves.

If you live in a pen with a herd of psychotic rhinoceroses, does the fact that there are angry Jack Russel terriers wandering about make a difference?

Re:And what part of stock market is 'market' again (1)

unity100 (970058) | more than 3 years ago | (#35181450)

markets are already being exploited at all costs by the people in those western economies themselves. to the point of wall street not refraining from a global scam, peddling fake bonds. taking down a stock market for a day to ward off cyber attack is one thing, poisoning the world finance supply with 600 times overvalued, 599 units of fake assets, is another. the latter is not fixable.

Re:And what part of stock market is 'market' again (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35186572)

"If you live in a pen with a herd of psychotic rhinoceroses, does the fact that there are angry Jack Russel terriers wandering about make a difference?"

You can use the dogs to distract the rhinos!

Re:And what part of stock market is 'market' again (2)

nedlohs (1335013) | more than 3 years ago | (#35181448)

I'd argue the opposite. When money is made it gives a false impression of the well being of the economy and hence that morale you talk about is too high and we get huge bubbles that self sustain for a little while. Then some trigger causes people to notice it's all fantasy and it comes tumbling down - which resets morale back to being in line with the actual state of the economy.

So that "making money" part has a huge impact on the economy, it screws it up completely. The "losing money" part also has an impact but for the good - it restores some sanity (though of course it hurts). Well unless the government socialises the losses then it also screws over the economy on the way down - double the fun!

Re:And what part of stock market is 'market' again (1)

complete loony (663508) | more than 3 years ago | (#35185774)

Stability is de-stabilising

Hyman Minsky

That's the "normal" business cycle. Coming out of a crisis, conservative projects are put forward, are funded, and succeed. This raises confidence and encourages more leverage. Over time less conservative projects are put forward, leveraged to the hilt. Eventually proposed projects get too shonky and fail, triggering another crisis. And the cycle repeats.

However with each of these smaller cycles, the overall level of debt in the system increased. And over time the economy looked more and more like a massive ponzi scheme. The economy can no longer recover by simply encouraging more leverage since there aren't enough people left who are willing to take on more debt.

Re:And what part of stock market is 'market' again (1)

nedlohs (1335013) | more than 3 years ago | (#35187760)

It would be the normal business cycle, except that the government has stepped in and "stopped" the downside part, with the pretty obvious result that the bubble based booms get larger at each step and the next downside is even bigger and hence requires more to "stop" it. And it's getting pretty close to being big enough that it won't be able to "stopped" at which point we get the cumulative downside of all those busts we avoided (well avoided the bulk of) all at once. On the bright side it's going to be interesting to watch...

Re:And what part of stock market is 'market' again (2)

khallow (566160) | more than 3 years ago | (#35181764)

Doesn't look to me like you get what a market is. It's just a place to buy and sell stuff. Stock market is that, hence, stock market is a market. Doesn't matter if it's loosely tied to reality or is a place where scams occur. Being a market doesn't imply only good things happen there.

Umm... (4, Insightful)

fuzzyfuzzyfungus (1223518) | more than 3 years ago | (#35181230)

It seems as though, given a little time, the markets do an excellent job of corrupting their own legitimacy, and taking the entire national economic well-being with it. Just ask Iceland, or Ireland, or the US...

Re:Umm... (1)

cayenne8 (626475) | more than 3 years ago | (#35181246)

Yeah..but this was about the "European Emissions Trading Scheme"....I mean, this carbon trading shit is a scam to begin with.

I say...more power to someone or a group fucking that up.

Re:Umm... (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35181598)

It seems as though, given a little time, the markets do an excellent job of corrupting their own legitimacy, and taking the entire national economic well-being with it. Just ask Iceland, or Ireland, or the US...

fuzzyfuzzyfungs, the problem with the "lack of regulation" narrative is that government power is what helped politically connected market actors to screw others. With the pre-crisis regulations in place, connected special interest groups from Wall Street were more easily served. See the government central bank policies, guarantees of certain kinds of debt, government enforced accounting standards regarding risk, various tax incentive programs and government sponsored programs, as well as the massive moral hazard of the bailouts. The solution is a *real* deregulation, not a deregulation in name only. If the government is being used to give certain groups power, it's best to get rid of the power, not concentrate it so it can happen again.

Regulations work (5, Insightful)

spun (1352) | more than 3 years ago | (#35181736)

Anonymous coward, the problem is not regulations, it is misuse of regulations. If regulations were a sure-fire way for the rich and powerful to gain and retain control over an economy, they would not be fighting them tooth and nail. But they are. Without regulations, they will do as they please, using market and extra-market forces to corrupt and control the market. With regulations, they may attempt regulatory capture, but they are always at the mercy of an informed and engaged electorate.

They already have power. Regulations do not concentrate power, they distribute it among the electorate rather than concentrating it in the hands of the rich and the ruthless. These ultra-rich would love nothing more than for you to do away with the one thing keeping them in check: government regulation.

If the government is giving power to certain groups, it is up to We, The People to correct that and take back control over our government.

Re:Regulations work (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35184742)

How utterly ignorant. "An informed and engaged electorate?" What planet do you live on? The rich and powerful all oppose regulation? Is that why the rich and powerful people in government always bring us more regulation regardless of party? Put down the communist manifesto and log off the daily kos, propaganda is warping your view of reality as it exists.

Re:Regulations work (1)

spun (1352) | more than 3 years ago | (#35201930)

What rich and powerful people are in government? What regulations have they passed? Rich and powerful people don't go into government, they buy poor people in government. The real rich and powerful want you to ignore them and focus on their hired henchmen, who are infinitely replaceable. And you, like a good little corporate tool, are fighting their battles for them. Go AC!

Re:Umm... (1)

fuzzyfuzzyfungus (1223518) | more than 3 years ago | (#35182654)

Wow. I didn't even mention regulation or deregulation...

corrupting their very legitimacy (1)

countertrolling (1585477) | more than 3 years ago | (#35181310)

*cough*

Very funny

Consult zerohedge for cyber/market spam nexus (4, Interesting)

HongPong (226840) | more than 3 years ago | (#35181314)

The majority of stock activity is exactly this electronic noise, it's the rule, not the exception. The whole equities market (and other ones) is a turbo-hyperactive instant messaging system of bid/ask channels and they are all basically crapflooded now at about 60-70% of daily trading volume. The "Carbon Market" is another huge scam handy for passthru moneylaundering & fraud operations. Unknown binaries have been lodged in key NASDAQ systems. The messaging "order flow" is arbitrarily frontrun (i.e. man in the middle message intercept).

The real question is what miserable slice of the activity actually represents rationally allocated capital, rather than this message crapflooding. My fave site for this topic http://zerohedge.com/ [zerohedge.com] consistently nails so many anomalies, flash crashes, order stacking rule loopholes (which bids are bumped off to 'dark pools' under less than optimal logic) etc.

It would be better if there was a 5ms 'quanta' for market prices, at least that would set a minimum time-to-live for price quotes. It becomes less 'rational' as the time horizon asymptotically approaches zero.

Re:Consult zerohedge for cyber/market spam nexus (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35183262)

You have obviously never traded equities on an open market. Your view is conjecture, based on someone else's flawed opinion of reality. It only seems like there is no 'rationally allocated captial' to you because you don't have any.

Re:Consult zerohedge for cyber/market spam nexus (1)

RewriteQuran (1943392) | more than 3 years ago | (#35183782)

There are only 2 ways we can 'consistently' make profits in stock markets.
        1. Front running
        2. Insider trading

what's worse? (1)

isotope23 (210590) | more than 3 years ago | (#35181326)

slowly disrupting and degrading confidence in their entire national economic well-being...

Ask Ben Bernanke. He seems to be gifted at the latter.

Re:what's worse? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35184596)

Ohhh, snap!

The money printing machine of the Federal Reserve? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35181412)

With cyber attack, you mean the money printing machine of the Federal Reserve?

Flipping a few bits of the banks has tilted the economy of the US a lot.

electronic rape? (1)

dltaylor (7510) | more than 3 years ago | (#35181434)

Not even close.

While there are similarities (helplessness, humiliation, ...) between an electronic attack like identity theft and assault by an invading army, most of us are already assaulted in that way by the sanctioned Ponzi schemes called the stock/commodities markets.

No woman has ever had her body literally ripped into by an electronic "invader".

Re:electronic rape? (1)

jbezorg (1263978) | more than 3 years ago | (#35181568)

Are you talking about electronic rape rape or just electronic rape?

Re:electronic rape? (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35183298)

Stocks and commodities markets are not Ponzi schemes, you just don't get it. Here is an example to help you understand: You sell your time to your employer for a given amount. Your goal is to prove to your employer that your time is worth more than he offers, He counters your offer assuming that he can get the same thing for a better price. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, and vice-versa. Meanwhile, "rape" means more than forcing someone to have sex against their will, and even in that context it isn't exclusive to women.

We need a backup plan for a slow exchange (2)

Animats (122034) | more than 3 years ago | (#35181474)

We need a backup plan for a "slow exchange". Something where the price of each stock changes every hour, after an hourly auction. The classic London Gold Fixing and the PJM electricity market work something like that. Such a market wouldn't need that much of an infrastructure, and it would be just enough to maintain liquidity.

This would be hard on exchange-traded funds, so we'd need a rule that, in emergencies, ETFs would be priced daily, like regular funds, and you can redeem them only on a daily basis.

The rules and infrastructure for this should be put in place, with dedicated, hardened computers in several locations idling on standby.

Re:We need a backup plan for a slow exchange (1)

khallow (566160) | more than 3 years ago | (#35181526)

We need a backup plan for a "slow exchange".

We already have the much better example of the old pre-electronic stock exchanges. You can do a lot better than one round of trading an hour.

Re:We need a backup plan for a slow exchange (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35183326)

You already have to wait three days to 'redeem' your funds. At least in the US. Forcing markets to trade at given intervals wouldn't make anything any better, rather open them to predictability, which in turn would make them more susceptible to attacks.

I suspect the latter (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35181496)

What's worse? Attacking someone's borders, or slowly disrupting and degrading confidence in their entire national economic well-being?

Given that we already have the latter (it's called "conservatism"), I'd say it's way worse. At least the people attacking the borders wouldn't insist on being smug pricks the whole time.

Our Changing World (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35181504)

The true subtle force here is the Internet and all of its ramifications. Concepts like "European Emissions Trading Scheme" and "Egyptian Government" have yet to come to terms with it. It gives the ability to groups of people to create ad-hoc organizations that may or may not have more power than the established organizations. Welcome to the new global consciousness.

Economic well-being is more important than borders (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35181508)

People's economic well-being is much more important than government borders. Government borders are just lines on a map, created by territorial monopolies of law enforcement and defense. This is in contrast to voluntary markets, which while they aren't perfect, provide pretty much all of people's prosperity.

A message from Mr. Helpmann (1)

abbynormal brain (1637419) | more than 3 years ago | (#35181670)

about the Cyber Attackers: "Bad sportsmanship. A ruthless minority of people seem to have forgotten good old-fashioned virtues. They just can't stand seeing the other fellow win. If these people would just play the game... " - Brazil (Somewhere in the 20th century)

Translation: Don't worry! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35181848)

Translation:

"Don't worry, our economy is fine, it's really the nasty underwear gnomes screwing everything up with their secret tricks.. seriously, nothing to see here.."

YES, IT"S GOLDMAN SACHS !!! (1)

Latinhypercube (935707) | more than 3 years ago | (#35181902)

Yes "nefarious persons are subtly manipulating the market "

IT"S GOLDMAN SACHS !!!
and yes, they are trying to bring down or own the whole western world

A very prescient article from *ten* years ago... (4, Informative)

Dogtanian (588974) | more than 3 years ago | (#35182120)

"We're All Missing the Point on Computer Security" [everything2.com]

Yep- that article was written ten years back, but it couldn't be more insightful and ahead-of-its-time in the context of this discussion.

Re:A very prescient article from *ten* years ago.. (1)

RooftopActivity (1991792) | more than 3 years ago | (#35182468)

+1, Very good read.

Newsflash (2)

eepok (545733) | more than 3 years ago | (#35182210)

Subtle attacks of any type organized on a large scale can hurt anything.

Dont stop them (1)

gmuslera (3436) | more than 3 years ago | (#35182394)

Probaly they will avoid the next market crash with their interference.

Yay (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35182422)

The "Carbon Market" is a scam. The DDoSers have good will.

what's worse.. (1)

Odinlake (1057938) | more than 3 years ago | (#35182800)

What's worse? Attacking someone's borders, or slowly disrupting and degrading confidence in their entire national economic well-being?

Attacking someone's borders.

What's there to be confident about? (1)

dontmakemethink (1186169) | more than 3 years ago | (#35182964)

We've got banks operating with completely ineffective oversight, leveraging themselves completely irresponsibly, and when things get ugly everyone gets bailed out for the sake of "The System". What system? No accountability = no system. Did even one bank executive get fired specifically for tanking the market? No, instead most got big bonuses from the bailout money. Think we're better off now, or worse?

Re:What's there to be confident about? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35184788)

The accountability would have been restored if they were allowed to fail. You assume the bailout was designed to fix the system. This is not actually the case. In reality it was designed to set us up for an even bigger disaster. Those in power will use this bigger disaster to seize more power and manipulate the situation further.

Re:What's there to be confident about? (1)

ScrewMaster (602015) | more than 3 years ago | (#35189478)

The accountability would have been restored if they were allowed to fail. You assume the bailout was designed to fix the system. This is not actually the case. In reality it was designed to set us up for an even bigger disaster. Those in power will use this bigger disaster to seize more power and manipulate the situation further.

Sure ... they've given up their traditional policy of incrementalism because it takes too damn long. They want more power now, and terrified, uneducated people are far more likely to give it to them. Is there a master plan here (America as a totalitarian state) or is this just power for the sake of power?

OK but how can we help? (1)

Nabbler (1683858) | more than 3 years ago | (#35183696)

I'm all for such attacks myself, those 'elements of the market economy' do plenty of harm and are in dire need of some counter-force.

Carbon market? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35183902)

That's a joke, right? Well, if it was a real market, there'd be a reason to care about it.

thank god for the kill switch (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35184184)

This is just what we need to get that internet kill switch thing passed!

Euro-Mafia market (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35184978)

Recent cyber-attacks on the European Emissions Trading Scheme shut down that exchange's carbon market just a few weeks ago. ...slowly disrupting and degrading confidence in their entire national economic well-being?"

Isn't that the whole purpose of the Carbon credits market?

who is disrupting the world's economies (1)

doperative (1958782) | more than 3 years ago | (#35185574)

The only people to disrupting the world's economies are the traders in such places as Solomon Brothers [wikipedia.org] .

Subtlety (1)

ScrewMaster (602015) | more than 3 years ago | (#35189452)

ecent cyber-attacks on the European Emissions Trading Scheme shut down that exchange's carbon market just a few weeks ago.

That's "subtle"?

The source of the attacks should be obvious. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35189896)

Aliens from outer space. They’ve been here since before the New Sun. You and I saw them in the Dark. The lights in the sky, remember?

--Sherkaner

Carbon or Tulip Credits; what's the difference? (1)

Jerome from Layton (1930180) | more than 3 years ago | (#35190362)

When you have a market based on an imaginary construct (Al Gore's book and the the folks at East Anglia U.), it is ripe for any form of fraud. Or, as the English sailor in Holland put it, "That's a funny tasting onion."
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