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On Retirement, Israeli General Takes Credit for Stuxnet Attacks

timothy posted more than 3 years ago | from the all-in-all-it's-been-a-good-run dept.

The Military 334

dinscott writes "Last month, The New York Times ran a story about Stuxnet having been developed by the Americans and the Israelis as a part of a joint project, but it was based on claims by confidential sources. It now seems that the information from these sources was correct. The Haaretz — Israel's oldest daily newspaper — reports on a surprising video that was played at a party organized for General Gabi Ashkenazi's last day on the job."

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the video claims Israeli involvement (2)

YesIAmAScript (886271) | more than 3 years ago | (#35217856)

Did I miss something in the article, where does it confirm US involvement?

Re:the video claims Israeli involvement (-1, Troll)

Dunbal (464142) | more than 3 years ago | (#35217880)

The Haaretz — Israel's oldest daily newspaper — reports

However the Bible, the world's first and oldest printed book, fails to mention any aspect of this story, including the General's involvement.

Who are we to believe? The oldest newspaper, or the Bible?

Slashdot officially sucks.

Re:the video claims Israeli involvement (4, Funny)

93 Escort Wagon (326346) | more than 3 years ago | (#35218126)

The Haaretz — Israel's oldest daily newspaper — reports

However the Bible, the world's first and oldest printed book, fails to mention any aspect of this story, including the General's involvement.

You obviously forgot to check the Apocrypha.

Re:the video claims Israeli involvement (1)

bug1 (96678) | more than 3 years ago | (#35218366)

The first rule of slashvertizing is you DONT talk about slashvertising.

Re:the video claims Israeli involvement (0, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35218418)

The recently found Dead Sea stone slabs, however, describe these events in quite amazing detail:

"..and behold! The Worm of God will hacketh the infidels' things and stop the things from spinning and on the last day [at the job] god's general will rejoice with Styx."

Re:the video claims Israeli involvement (4, Insightful)

Rakshasa Taisab (244699) | more than 3 years ago | (#35218672)

The Haaretz — Israel's oldest daily newspaper — reports

However the Bible, the world's first and oldest printed book, fails to mention any aspect of this story, including the General's involvement.

I didn't know they had translated the bible to Chinese thousand years ago...

Re:the video claims Israeli involvement (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35218082)

It doesn't. Another non story posting.

Re:the video claims Israeli involvement (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35218172)

It never said it confirmed, it says clearly that the new york times had a story where they mentioned the US may be involved, based on some loose evidence.

___

Use "SlashView" on WP7 to view Slashdot on the go.

Re:the video claims Israeli involvement (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35218196)

The US taxpayer's money has paid for it all. What else is there really to say about US involvement?

Re:the video claims Israeli involvement (1)

icebike (68054) | more than 3 years ago | (#35218238)

Says who.
Israel has a lot more to lose with a nuclear Iran than does the US, and they have been doing deep projects like this since dirt.

Re:the video claims Israeli involvement (1)

Wyatt Earp (1029) | more than 3 years ago | (#35218294)

Modern Israel loves their spies and doing stuff like this.

They get their tradition for spying from Bible to the founding of Israel.

"Send men that they may spy out the land of Canaan, which I give to the children of Israel; of every tribe of their fathers shall you send a man, everyone one a prince among them."(Numbers 13:1-2)

Re:the video claims Israeli involvement (1)

Dracos (107777) | more than 3 years ago | (#35218604)

Iran, even if they ever did manage to create a nuclear bomb, would never drop it on Israel, because the entire Arab world would turn against them. Why? Wind. The prevailing winds in the region would blow the fallout from Israel to the northeast, over Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, and maybe even Iran to the Caspian Sea. Otherwise, it would get blown over Saudi Arabia or Egypt.

As backward or simple as some may perceive Iran to be, I'm sure they know that fallout doesn't stay in the immediate blast zone.

Re:the video claims Israeli involvement (2)

icebike (68054) | more than 3 years ago | (#35218662)

The entire Arab World would be too busy dancing in the streets to blame anyone.

Re:the video claims Israeli involvement (1)

timeOday (582209) | more than 3 years ago | (#35218678)

One bad (and almost certain) outcome of Iran obtaining nukes - especially homegrown - would be an increase in nationalistic pride and therefore support for the current government (which appears to have significant internal opposition, although probably not majority opposition, at the moment). People love leaders who make them feel strong and secure.

Re:the video claims Israeli involvement (1)

Wyatt Earp (1029) | more than 3 years ago | (#35218288)

US military aid to Israel is almost entirely spent on arms from the United States and joint research programs into weapons.

Israel already has an established software industry without aid from the US.

Re:the video claims Israeli involvement (2)

pegdhcp (1158827) | more than 3 years ago | (#35218354)

Israel already has an established software industry without aid from the US.

Most people (in SW industry) I know from Israel have their background in Silicon Valley and most companies have their background on people who met while working in States. Again most (if not all) do not have USA governmental support, but US private sector had lost lots of brilliant people to Israel software industry. While this is true for some other countries as well, I guess Israel has a bigger percentage when normalized in population etc.

Beautiful (-1, Flamebait)

sageres (561626) | more than 3 years ago | (#35217872)

Love you Israel! Keeping Middle-East nuclear free! From the time we bombed Saddam's reactor in 1981, then Syrian in 2007 and now we tackling Iran! The effort was very sofisticated and once again we have proven -- we -- the Jews -- have the best minds in the world. ! ,

Re:Beautiful (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35217882)

or are just the biggest jerks.

Re:Beautiful (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35217892)

Its spelled sophisticated.... There is no f, unlike the word fail, which is what you did with your attempt to spell

Re:Beautiful (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35217898)

Israel - Meddling in others' affairs in the name of rampant, segregationist nationalistic fervor since 1948.

Re:Beautiful (1)

arcite (661011) | more than 3 years ago | (#35217932)

There are half a dozen middle east countries currently working on building nuclear reactors, the situation will be quite different in ten years. The USA isn't going to protect you guys forever, why not make peace?

Re:Beautiful (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35217950)

Mars Attacks. Great movie. Highly recommended.

Re:Beautiful (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35218180)

kinda racist there, so all Arabs are bent on war? What about the two largest Arab countries that have peace treaties with Israel, Egypt and Jordan?

Re:Beautiful (2, Insightful)

sageres (561626) | more than 3 years ago | (#35218010)

The problem is that there are no partners for peace at the moment. If you were to actually ask a real Gazan or Palestinian it is possible to make peace with Israel -- they will tell you that the best Qu'ran will allow them to do is "hudna" -- i.e. long term cease-fire. As for the nuclear technology becoming a common occurrence in the Middle East -- trust me Israel is keeping tabs on them. If you were to look at the history, in 1948 and 1967, the US did not always have Israel's back. Even in 1973 US has stopped Israel from marching onto Damascus and Cairo, just because Brezhnev threatened to send the Red Army into Sinai. And finally -- we just do not want a madman with the Supreme Council of Madmen who is openly hosting the Holocaust denial conferences while promising Jews another one by wiping Israel off the map to have a nuclear weapon.

Re:Beautiful (4, Informative)

mr100percent (57156) | more than 3 years ago | (#35218232)

You're operating on outdated ideas there.

First, the Quran does not say that, I think you're getting such a ridiculous notion from a neocon/zionist/Islamophobe. No "real Palestinian" (who?) would tell you that.

Second, look at The Palestine Papers [aljazeera.net] . The Palestinian government just fell because the PA was scandalously offering to give away Jerusalem and most of Palestine with nothing in return, and yet Netanyahu's government rejected the offers.

Thirdly, the president of Iran is such a red herring. Does he control the military? No. Did he say "wipe Israel off the map?" No. To quote his exact words in Farsi: "Imam ghoft een rezhim-e ishghalgar-e qods bayad az safheh-ye ruzgar mahv shavad." No such idiom exists in Persian, and Ahmadinejad actually just quoted an old speech of Khomeini in which he said “The occupation regime (over Jerusalem) must vanish from the page of time.” It's not about tanks going into Israel, but more like how Regan said the USSR would one day only exist in a history book. Of course Ahmadinejad does wish Israel would disappear, but he is not the Supreme Leader so he cannot make such an order. It's like the US Secretary of the Interior saying Iran should be invaded, he has no authority to do so. Believe it or not, Ahmadinejad denies he is anti-Semitic, he supports Jewish leaders in Iran and groups like Naturei Karta, and insists he is anti-Zionist, not anti-Judaism.

Re:Beautiful (4, Interesting)

robinvanleeuwen (1009809) | more than 3 years ago | (#35218394)

[quote] No. Did he say "wipe Israel off the map?" No. To quote his exact words in Farsi: "Imam ghoft een rezhim-e ishghalgar-e qods bayad az safheh-ye ruzgar mahv shavad." No such idiom exists in Persian, and Ahmadinejad actually just quoted an old speech of Khomeini in which he said “The occupation regime (over Jerusalem) must vanish from the page of time.” [/quote]

Maybe people who say things like: "The occupation regime (over Jerusalem) must vanish from the page of time.” Should stop being suck fucking morons and stop saying shit like that because things like that will be interpreted by a lot of people fanatic muslims, anti-muslims, the whole western world , and a lot of people i forget to mention here, as: "We should wipe Israel of the map"

It can either be that he is to dumb to realize that quotes like that will just flame the hatred because people interpret it as calls for agression, but my guess is that if he's got the brain to get to be leader of a country, he fully realizes that...

You can be all 'he didn't say that, and he meant it in a good way' but that's bullshit... He knows he says thing that can be interpreted in a wrong way.... even if he doesn't comprehend that he shouldn't lead a country anyway....

Re:Beautiful (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35218518)

Nobody is saying "he meant it in a good way," but there's quite a difference in what he actually said and people interpreting it as a sign of genocidal intent

Re:Beautiful (4, Informative)

TheLink (130905) | more than 3 years ago | (#35218224)

Hamas doesn't want peace with Israel in the long term:
http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp [yale.edu]

The only peace they want is one where Israel is wiped out.

Fatah's old charter also stated similar stuff: http://www.alzaytouna.net/arabic/?c=1598&a=97061 [alzaytouna.net]

Article (8) The Israeli existence in Palestine is a Zionist invasion with a colonial expansive base, and it is a natural ally to colonialism and international imperialism.
Article (12) Complete liberation of Palestine, and eradication of Zionist economic, political, military and cultural existence.
Article (19) Armed struggle is a strategy and not a tactic, and the Palestinian Arab People's armed revolution is a decisive factor in the liberation fight and in uprooting the Zionist existence, and this struggle will not cease unless the Zionist state is demolished and Palestine is completely liberated.

Apparently their new one no longer calls for Israel's destruction. http://jta.org/news/article/2010/01/27/1010372/new-fatah-charter-omits-negationist-language [jta.org]

But there will be problems as long as most of them continue to hold on to the popular "radical/extremist Islam" concepts listed here: http://www.tawfikhamid.com/abcs-test-for-radical-islam/ [tawfikhamid.com]

Re:Beautiful (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35218430)

You're way off-topic here. How does this relate to Stuxnet?

Besides, most experts say that Hamas has de-facto recognized Israel for years and supports a two-state solution. One senior official was quoted [huffingtonpost.com] to have said "We want a divorce from the Jews, not to live closer to them... Israel has won, why can't they just leave us alone."

Re:Beautiful (5, Insightful)

mr100percent (57156) | more than 3 years ago | (#35217952)

How is Israel "keeping the Middle East nuclear-free" when it is widely regarded to have at least 100 nuclear weapons of its own? The Dimona Nuclear Complex [everything2.com] is not exactly a secret.

Re:Beautiful (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35217984)

Say that same thing, but change the "jews" with "aryans".

Yes, it sounds exactly like that.

Shock! (1)

BadAnalogyGuy (945258) | more than 3 years ago | (#35217884)

and Awe!

Cyber terrorisim (4, Insightful)

grapeape (137008) | more than 3 years ago | (#35217888)

So did he get added to the "no fly" and terrorist watch lists?

Re:Cyber terrorisim (1)

bsDaemon (87307) | more than 3 years ago | (#35217900)

Yeah, but then he just hacked the no-fly list and its like it never even happened.

Re:Cyber terrorisim (1)

monkyyy (1901940) | more than 3 years ago | (#35217904)

he probably was all ready on it as i dont think we want higher ups in other governments freely moving in and out of here

Re:Cyber terrorisim (5, Insightful)

Draek (916851) | more than 3 years ago | (#35218040)

Of course not, he's a Freedom Fighter (tm).

Remember, it's not terrorism if the US or its allies does it.

Re:Cyber terrorisim (-1, Troll)

WindBourne (631190) | more than 3 years ago | (#35218138)

If you like, we can allow Iran to test out their new toy on your house.

Re:Cyber terrorisim (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35218174)

If you like, we can allow Iran to test out their new toy on your house.

. So I assume you wouldn't mind Israel treating your house like it were on the Gaza strip, your family like Palestinians, and in the end using their toys on your neighbourhood, just because Iran might be developing a similar toy to those Israel already has for years?

Re:Cyber terrorisim (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35218208)

You're an idiot, Israel doing bad things to does not what Iran is doing/going to do any better.

They are both (Iran and Israel) are equally bad.

Re:Cyber terrorisim (0)

Kokuyo (549451) | more than 3 years ago | (#35218600)

Wooosh!

Re:Cyber terrorisim (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35218264)

What I would like, is for the US to tell Israel to get serious on the negotiations with the Palestinian authorities, so that this whole mess get's fixed and that countries like Iran get more isolated in their views and jihadists in general loose their main raison d'etre. Why is such a thing so difficult to do ?

Re:Cyber terrorisim (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35218398)

Thank God you didn't allow Iraq to test out their toys on my house. God bless you!

Re:Cyber terrorisim (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35218160)

Hopefully this will open the door to massive litigation that will economically cripple Israel - in other words the US will pick up another tab.
This was a criminal action in ANY jurisdiction, though no doubt the US and Israel will just ignore it all as per usual and claim some sort of "godly" immunity.

Re:Cyber terrorisim (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35218218)

Remember, it's not terrorism if the US or its allies does it.

Actually, it's not terrorism if software targets the machines of a state's nuclear weapons program.
My definition of terrorism has something to do with actual violence against civilians.

Re:Cyber terrorisim (1)

Gordonjcp (186804) | more than 3 years ago | (#35218674)

My definition of terrorism has something to do with actual violence against civilians.

What, like bulldozing people's homes, often without giving them the chance to retrieve any posessions? Attacking schools with helicopter gunships when the children are outside playing? Herding people into ghettos and forcing them into makeshift camps?

Make the Israelis play nice first.

Re:Cyber terrorisim (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35218202)

A uniformed soldier attacking a rival country's state owned weapons development program? That's not terrorism ( a non-state actor against civilian targets ) it's an act of war.

Re:Cyber terrorisim (1)

Riceballsan (816702) | more than 3 years ago | (#35218690)

Assuming he's not just some lunatic taking credit for it and whether the government funded/provided assistance in the project. For all we know it was one group of 15 people with no government oversight (not likely considering the value estimated of the exploits used but technically not impossible). Also in this case while no lives were lost or harmed, the worm certainly hit a ton of civilians. I personally agree with you 100% that in no way shape or form should a virus/attack be referred to as terrorism, I hate the term terrorism. I just disagree that someone in uniform who's main target is a military organization is automatically excluded from the possibility of being a rogue terrorist on those grounds. If a US general strapped a bomb to his chest and say went after say a top secrete military craft, target was the plane but 5 civilians died in the process, and there was no evidence that the guy wasn't working alone (or say was working with a non-military group), then that would be terrorism, the intended target and the persons rank are irrelevant, where the orders/funding comes from is what matters, and I still say the nature of the crime as I don't think non-violent crimes of any sort can be fairly called terrorism.

Everything you need to know (5, Insightful)

slashqwerty (1099091) | more than 3 years ago | (#35217908)

From the article:

There is always the possibility that this was just a way of magnifying the General's achievements, but it is also possible it is true.

In other words, it confirms nothing.

Re:Everything you need to know (5, Insightful)

JoshuaZ (1134087) | more than 3 years ago | (#35217938)

Yes, when I read the headline my first thought was "The Israelis can't possibly be so stupid as to do that. That's almost tantamount to admitting to an act of war. And doing it now will just make the faltering Iranian government look more like a valid object of sympathy." And then I read TFA. Yeah.

Re:Everything you need to know (3, Funny)

ColdWetDog (752185) | more than 3 years ago | (#35217962)

OK, everybody can calm down.

According to Google translate it was the "Stoxnat" virus. Completely different critter entirely.

Nothing to see here, move along.

Redundant (3, Informative)

masterz (143854) | more than 3 years ago | (#35217924)

"The Haaretz" is redundant since the Hebrew prefix 'ha' means 'the'.

Re:Redundant (1)

Spy Handler (822350) | more than 3 years ago | (#35217942)

you mean every time I eat lunch at the El Pollo Loco across the street, I'm being redundant?

Re:Redundant (1)

Big Hairy Goofy Guy (866523) | more than 3 years ago | (#35217990)

you mean every time I eat lunch at the El Pollo Loco across the street, I'm being redundant?

Only because you are one Crazy Chicken. :-)

Re:Redundant (1)

colinrichardday (768814) | more than 3 years ago | (#35218092)

No, he is the crazy chicken!

Re:Redundant (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35218290)

My wife used to attend The El Libro Book Club.

Re:Redundant (1)

Archangel Michael (180766) | more than 3 years ago | (#35218376)

Not nearly as " The LaBrea Tar Pits" ... which when rendered in 100% English ends up being "the the tar tar pits".

For those who don't know, LaBrea Tar Pits (redundant I know) is a archeological dig site of oil tar pools where prehistoric mammals like SaberTooth Tigers and Giant Sloths (not to be confused with Cowboy Neal), fell trapped to their deaths. You can see parts of it in the movie Volcano, which takes part near the site.

Re:Redundant (1)

game0ver (554915) | more than 3 years ago | (#35218536)

or The Los Angeles Angels baseball team.

Re:Redundant (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35218548)

And Last Action Hero, don't forget. What else could possibly contain all that nerve gas from The Fart?

Re:Redundant (1)

sageres (561626) | more than 3 years ago | (#35217976)

err... learn Hebrew please. Haaretz means "Land".

Re:Redundant (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35218024)

No, It means "the land". As an Israeli, "the Haaretz" sounds very redundant to me.

Re:Redundant (2)

VortexCortex (1117377) | more than 3 years ago | (#35218080)

err... learn Hebrew please.

Meh, I tried... According to Google translate the Hebrew Haaretz translated into English is Haaretz, and Haaretz in English translated into Hebrew is something that looks like: Y7Xi7.

This is clearly 1337 for "Why Transmit It" (Y TX iT), or possibly "Why, Transmit It!"; Both of which are, IMO, good names for a newspaper.

Re:Redundant (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35218446)

That looks like a bunch of vi commands

Re:Redundant (1)

stumblingblock (409645) | more than 3 years ago | (#35218432)

You mean when I visit the La Brea Tar Pits, I am saying "the the tar tar pits" ? Damn foreign languages. So confusing.

Re:Redundant (1)

syousef (465911) | more than 3 years ago | (#35218546)

"The Haaretz" is redundant since the Hebrew prefix 'ha' means 'the'.

Just like pedantic slashdotter is redundant? ;-)

Or is that Ha!slashdotter!

Now there's a surprise (1)

hyades1 (1149581) | more than 3 years ago | (#35217946)

So this general takes credit for a virus that could still be working silently away, screwing the Iranians at every turn, if it had been competently written.

Quelle surprise!

Re:Now there's a surprise (2)

amicusNYCL (1538833) | more than 3 years ago | (#35217996)

So this general takes credit for a virus that could still be working silently away, screwing the Iranians at every turn, if it had been competently written.

In the current issue of Internet Tough Guy Monthly:

Stuxnet: why you can write better code than the Israeli/American military-industrial complex.

serious for a moment (1, Interesting)

sageres (561626) | more than 3 years ago | (#35217948)

Desperate times call for desperate measures. And Israel is indeed in a tough neighborhood where every single day, hour, second... Every single moment is a desperate time. Ever since her inception the neighbors tried to annihilate her. That is why there is a policy of ambiguity when it comes to the nuclear weapons. And assassinations of the nuclear scientists working for Israelis enemies. And bombings of the Iraqi and Syrian reactors and finally yes -- the virus. And for any of you who would point a finger at the "neighborhood bully" -- remember, that you do not live in that neighborhood.

Re:serious for a moment (4, Interesting)

Fluffeh (1273756) | more than 3 years ago | (#35218156)

I would argue that all the points you make do in fact point to "Bully" and that is never a good thing.

Not to pick bones, but "Her inception" to all the other countries there, basically meant that someone came and took the land away from them! Of course they are annoyed and angry about it!

Does Israel get a pretty short straw? Absolutely, but I do have to say that I don't believe that they are making it easier for themselves. For the most part, that can be said about most nations in that region. The biggest player on a field should earn the respect of the other players and get them to follow suit rather than simply intimidating, running clandestine operations and in your words "assassinating nuclear scientists in other countries".

There aren't many fundamentalists compared to moderates, but every time one of them is killed, all the moderates close to that person will feel just that little more tired, angry or plain out infuriated - giving a net result of more fundamentalists. On the other hand, each act of compassion, each charitable hand extended will keep the moderates calm and you might even find a few of the fundamentalists starting to question violence.*

Stop the cycle of violence. BE the bigger man you claim you are.

* This idea really works anywhere in the world, not just the middle east. When will people figure out that the carrot will always win over the stick.

Re:serious for a moment (2, Insightful)

BZ (40346) | more than 3 years ago | (#35218212)

> There aren't many fundamentalists compared to
> moderates

Is this gut feeling, or do you have data? If the latter, can you cite?

Also, do note that "moderate" might mean different things in different places if you're simply defining it in terms of the population median. If that's the case, you may be interested in http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/02/egypt-vs-indonesia-in-attitudes/ [discovermagazine.com] and can of course not provide data to support the initial claim, since it becomes true by definition.

> Stop the cycle of violence. BE the bigger man you
> claim you are.

This is a lot easier to do if you have strategic depth, for what it's worth. Or even tactical depth. Both commodities are unfortunately in short supply in the Middle East....

Re:serious for a moment (5, Insightful)

Compaqt (1758360) | more than 3 years ago | (#35218460)

This is a tangent, but it's funny to me how what are called the "moderate Arab states" have been the most repressive, either socio-religiously (Saudi Arabia), or politically (Jordan and the Persian Gulf states).

Sadly, a lot of different factors combined to destroy the only multi-cultural democracy in the Middle East: Lebanon.

Re:serious for a moment (1)

giorgist (1208992) | more than 3 years ago | (#35218594)

Unfortunately one match kind of does more damadge than a glass of water does good

Re:serious for a moment (2, Insightful)

tick-tock-atona (1145909) | more than 3 years ago | (#35218158)

Desperate times call for desperate measures. And Iran is indeed in a tough neighborhood where every single day, hour, second... Every single moment is a desperate time. Ever since her inception the US and Israel tried to annihilate her. That is why there is a policy of development when it comes to the nuclear weapons. And assassinations of the nuclear scientists by Iran's enemies shows that they are doing something right. And bombings of their reactors and finally yes -- the virus.

FTFY. Remember, the major reason for Iran's military buildup is exterior threats (and the fact that it's working only reinforces that [ynet.co.il] ).

And for any of you who would point a finger at the "neighborhood bully" -- remember, that you do not live in that neighborhood.

Yeah, but if I did live in, say, the Gaza strip, and the neighbour used Collective Punishment [wikipedia.org] (a war crime) on my society for democratically choosing, in an election [wikipedia.org] described as "free, transparent and without violence", someone they didn't like, then I'd probably work damn hard to fight for my freedom and escape from beneath their boot heel too.

Re:serious for a moment (3, Interesting)

BZ (40346) | more than 3 years ago | (#35218246)

Punishing people as a group for the actions of their freely elected government does not in fact strike me as collective punishment. Israel has certainly engaged in collective punishment in the past, but the Gaza/Hamas example seems poorly chosen.

If you allow that as an example of collective punishment, then would you consider economic sanctions collective punishment? What about imposing tariffs that lead to unemployment and hardship in the target country?

What about a declaration of war against an a country that has a draft?

Heck, is there any way you can think of to prosecute a war at all without effectively engaging on collective punishment?

I agree that it would be really nice if wars weren't fought, of course. But I don't see how one can be fought with modern weapons between modern states or any semblance thereof without ending up in collective punishment territory, with the exception of blitzkrieg campaigns with limited objectives like the 1967 Arab-Israeli war (and even that arguably had collective punishment as part of the consequences)...

Re:serious for a moment (2)

Ice Tiger (10883) | more than 3 years ago | (#35218492)

Every wonder what conditions have to be in place before extremists get elected to power like Hamas?

Have a look at the history behind the Nazi parties rise to power for a good example.

Re:serious for a moment (1)

Clandestine_Blaze (1019274) | more than 3 years ago | (#35218200)

And apparently, all for nothing [washingtonpost.com] .

In an underground chamber near the Iranian city of Natanz, a network of surveillance cameras offers the outside world a rare glimpse into Iran's largest nuclear facility. The cameras were installed by U.N. inspectors to keep tabs on Iran's nuclear progress, but last year they recorded something unexpected: workers hauling away crate after crate of broken equipment.

In a six-month period between late 2009 and last spring, U.N. officials watched in amazement as Iran dismantled more than 10 percent of the Natanz plant's 9,000 centrifuge machines used to enrich uranium. Then, just as remarkably, hundreds of new machines arrived at the plant to replace the ones that were lost.

Despite the disgusting assassination of scientists and cyberwarfare, Iran's still in business. If nothing else, it taught Iran how to cope with losing intelligence and resources.

Re:serious for a moment (4, Interesting)

mr100percent (57156) | more than 3 years ago | (#35218272)

That may have been the case for decades, but look, it's 2011. The facts have changed since the 1960s.

Egypt today has a peace treaty with Egypt and a separate one with Jordan. Israel and Turkey have a mutual defense treaty, and Turkey is a NATO member so attacking Israel will bring about massive retaliation from North American and European allies. Iraq, supposedly "Israel's greatest threat today" according to Ariel Sharon, is no longer a threat. I'd say that the neighborhood is far safer than it was 50 years ago; do you still see Israeli planes being hijacked?

Israel is one of the richest countries, with a GDP per capita bigger than Spain or South Korea. The US gives it billions of dollars in military aid and Most Favored Nation free trade status. Does anyone seriously think Israel is under threat of no longer existing?

Israel is generally safe from most of its neighbors. Maybe it would be even safer if it stops its policy of bashing all Arabs (as Israeli FM Avigdor Liberman does) or provoking its neighbors to anger by Israeli MKs referring to Arabs as "worms."

Re:serious for a moment (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35218362)

You're an idiot. First of all, USA does not provide Israel with any help, Israel has a flourishing technological and cultural backbone, they are creating and innovating at a faster rate than anyone around them, that is why such a tiny nation is flourishing (Once again, look up the data, Jews compose no more than 0.3% of the worlds population, and get over 30% of Nobel Prizes, Field Medals, Chess Master champions, Best Writer awards... this is why they flourish). And second, their nation might no longer be in the same level of danger, but that does not mean that terrorist attacks are not happening every day, which they do... and there needs to be a way to deal with that. There was a single attack on the USA, and it went to war with another country,. There is a terrorist attack on Israel every day, you should be glad they have not glassed the nations that are harboring those attackers.

You are pathetic.

Re:serious for a moment (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35218426)

Israel is one of the richest countries, with a GDP per capita bigger than Spain

According to IMF 2009 GDP per capita:
Based on PPP:
Spain $29625
Israel $28581

Nominal:
Spain $32030
Israel $26874

Re:serious for a moment (2, Informative)

Ice Tiger (10883) | more than 3 years ago | (#35218434)

Gaza Strip, illegal occupation of land, assassination of foreign nationals who are nuclear scientists, bombings of Iraqi and Syrian reactors, cyber warfare against Iran.

Seriously, where does Israel think this aggression doctrine will end? Maybe the government needs to swap out of 'King David hotel' mode and build some bridges?

Re:serious for a moment (1)

tokul (682258) | more than 3 years ago | (#35218554)

bombings of Iraqi and Syrian reactors

Last time I've checked Syrians themselves said that it was not a nuclear reactor.

Re:serious for a moment (1)

rtb61 (674572) | more than 3 years ago | (#35218556)

You couldn't possibly be referring to this terrorist group http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irgun [wikipedia.org] . You know those huys that were murdering and blowing up British soldiers in Palestine, hmm, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Irgun_attacks [wikipedia.org] , bloody long list of terrorist attacks.

It would seem a terrorist territory, born of violence has simply continued down that path. Yes I know, it's all their fault for complaining and seeking assistance from neighbouring territories when they were being herded into reservation and camps, those Muslim Palestinians should have just gone quietly off to the camps like, hmm, it would seem that the abused became the abusers.

Someone's taking the piss.. (1)

Sporkinum (655143) | more than 3 years ago | (#35217954)

General Ashke-NAZI?
Urban Dictionary:"1. Ashke
Word meaning "beloved" in the language of the Tayledra people. The Tayledras are a silver haired race of people from Mercedes Lackey's fiction novels."

How was it delivered? (1)

NetNinja (469346) | more than 3 years ago | (#35218000)

Why do I have this sneaky suspicion that someone dropped a USB stick near the toilet and some worker picked it up and inserted it into a computer.

So.. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35218012)

Is this like a confirmation of an actual attack from one nation to another? Isn't that considered an act of war?

Now Microsoft closes the hole (1)

whoever57 (658626) | more than 3 years ago | (#35218022)

Does anyone think it is a coincidence that, just a few months after all the information about Stuxnet has come out and presumably Iran has secured its critical computers against drive-by install from flash drives, Microsoft closes the autorun hole with an update?

Re:Now Microsoft closes the hole (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35218118)

Now you're thinking with Paranoia![tm]

A few more weeks thinking like that, and you'll be ready to know that 9-11 was an inside job, the Holocaust was faked and that deregulation along with tax cuts for major corporations will cause a massive monetary trickle-down effect and end unemployment.

You're in the right place to find out where they sell the deeply discounted tin foil haberdashery, too. Welcome to the club!

The paranoia trick is useless today - sorry (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35218284)

That paranoia trick is useless today - sorry

Microsoft is an accomplished cooperator here. They are doing its governments wishes, big deal.

What other tool reaches out globally with such power? None.

It may well become Android, which is also known to leak like hell. If the Nokia - Microsoft deal, the US government will have an even stronger tool available.

So, stuff your 9-11 Holocaust tax cuts were it belongs.

This is for real.

Ahmadinejad's Hypocrisy (2)

MarkvW (1037596) | more than 3 years ago | (#35218094)

Ahmadinejad craves Western technology while rejecting the social structure necessary to create that technology. They are the biggest bunch of hypocrites.

Re:Ahmadinejad's Hypocrisy (-1, Troll)

Required Snark (1702878) | more than 3 years ago | (#35218228)

Yes, just like US right wing zealots.

Bill O'Reilly thinks that Jesus makes the tides work http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2011/02/11/you-cant-explain-bill-oreilly/ [discovermagazine.com] .

Or the on-going attack on teaching evolution in US public schools http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creation_and_evolution_in_public_education [wikipedia.org] .

Globally, evolution is taught in science courses with limited controversy, with the exception of a few areas of the United States and several Islamic fundamentalist countries.

So it's not just radical Islamic regimes, it's Christians in the US.

Or the Conservapedia saying that Einstein's Relativity theories are a "liberal plot". http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/08/conservapedia_founder_takes_on_the_notorious_liber.php [talkingpointsmemo.com]

The theory of relativity is a mathematical system that allows no exceptions. It is heavily promoted by liberals who like its encouragement of relativism and its tendency to mislead people in how they view the world.

Don't forget the wanna-be Christians despots here in the USA.

Re:Ahmadinejad's Hypocrisy (2)

Zancarius (414244) | more than 3 years ago | (#35218568)

Bill O'Reilly thinks that Jesus makes the tides work http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2011/02/11/you-cant-explain-bill-oreilly/ [discovermagazine.com] [discovermagazine.com].

As much as O'Reilly annoys me, I really, sincerely hope that you are able to recognize satire when you see it and are just hoping for some karma by being sarcastic or trolling. For the benefit of the doubt and for my sanity, I'll presume the latter.

Re:Ahmadinejad's Hypocrisy (2)

mr100percent (57156) | more than 3 years ago | (#35218286)

Really, how does "social structure" translate into creating technology? I'm sure places like India would love to know how they're making microchips while lacking this vital piece of civilization.

Re:Ahmadinejad's Hypocrisy (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35218384)

Simple. We got the information/designs from foreign companies.

I would say Social lifestyles/interactions rather than structure but I completely agree with the statement. If you want to consider India and China as similar - here's one: China has fast long-distance trains, possibly one of the fastest in the world. India - not even close.

Oh, I understand slashdot logic now (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35218128)

Sabotaging the nuclear program of a madman who - if he manages to go nuclear - WILL try and nuke your entire country... this is apparently a really bad thing.

    Nuking Israel or suicide bombing an innocent populace... totally justified.

    Good Old Slashdot. Making excuses for Arab aggression since 1997.

The mandatory anti-Sionist comment (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35218234)

The mandatory anti-Sionists comment: The Jews were behind it.

For once they were correct! :)

Why not me? (1)

Alex Belits (437) | more than 3 years ago | (#35218382)

Why no one claims that I wrote it?

It would be just as plausible.

Misattribution (5, Funny)

Ukab the Great (87152) | more than 3 years ago | (#35218468)

Technically speaking, Microsoft really deserves more of the credit than Gabi Ashkenazi.

So, in less sensationalist terms. (1)

EnsilZah (575600) | more than 3 years ago | (#35218676)

During the farewell ceremony for the Israeli army's chief of staff a video was shown that summarized the events of his term, that video included news reports about stuxnet and the attack on the nuclear reactor in Syria.

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