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GNOME To Lose Minimize, Maximize Buttons

timothy posted more than 3 years ago | from the aren't-you-taking-this-a-bit-far? dept.

GNOME 797

An anonymous reader writes "When GNOME 3 arrives in a month, users might be surprised to see old UI staples 'minimize' and 'maximize' buttons gone and replaced by... nothing, in the case of minimizing, and either drag-up or double-click-titlebar for maximizing. Says Allan Day, GNOME Marketing Contractor: 'Without minimize, the GNOME 3 desktop is a more focused UI, and it is a UI that has a consistent high level of quality. Yes, moving to a minimiseless world might take a little getting used to for some, but the change makes sense and has clear benefits.' Some users already welcome the change, while others are in an uproar, swearing to wait for GNOME 3.2, switch to KDE or even Windows. What do you think? A better, simpler interface for new times, or a case of making something simpler than it should be?" I like minimize and maximize buttons, but I'll admit to liking the look of GNOME 3 .

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797 comments

Is that really well tested in the real world? (1)

Jugalator (259273) | more than 3 years ago | (#35389426)

Maximizing a window is such an uncommon thing to do, that few will be annoyed by the much smaller target surface that a window border makes up?

With that out of the way -- why are they removing them?

Re:Is that really well tested in the real world? (4, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35389478)

Tested in the real world? No, not at all. But the developers have done a lot of reading of theoretical papers, so how could this go wrong?

Re:Is that really well tested in the real world? (1, Insightful)

devxo (1963088) | more than 3 years ago | (#35389480)

Eh, maximing window sure isn't an uncommon thing to do. I run my browser and pretty much every other window maximized, it just works better. Only windows I keep small are something like instant messenger and setting panels. Granted I've learnt to double-click the title bar instead, but many people use the maximize window button.

Re:Is that really well tested in the real world? (1)

Blakey Rat (99501) | more than 3 years ago | (#35389760)

Do you have a tiny monitor? I could see maximizing on a laptop with a smallish resolution, but on a 1920x1280 desktop screen the concept is ridiculous.

Re:Is that really well tested in the real world? (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35389496)

We're too dumb to be faced with so many options. They know what's good for you better than you know yourself :p

Re:Is that really well tested in the real world? (2)

TitusC3v5 (608284) | more than 3 years ago | (#35389498)

On a day to day basis I rarely use any of the titlebar buttons. I double-click the titlebar to maximize/restore, click the taskbar or dock to minimize, usually just punch Alt+F4 or Alt+Q to close.

Re:Is that really well tested in the real world? (0, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35389686)

Ooh, falling back to the keyboard? You're a real anachronism.

Somehow the code is there to minimize and maximize the windows anyway. I just don't understand the reason for taking away part of the flexibility that is supposed to make the Linux Desktop so much better than Windows. Oh, wait, Windows will still have the Maximize and Minimize buttons, so the reason must be to differentiate the Linux Desktop experience from the Windows Desktop experience.

For heavens sake, just leave them in as an option that people can turn off or on as they wish. Damn developers are getting as bad as our city council. They know what's good for us so they make changes with no consultation except among themselves.

Re:Is that really well tested in the real world? (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35389566)

> Maximizing a window is such an uncommon thing to do

Not on a netbook it's not! If an app lacks a full-screen mode I'll maximise it.

Netbook screens are so small that I tend to have one application per workspace.

Re:Is that really well tested in the real world? (1)

Nerdfest (867930) | more than 3 years ago | (#35389586)

People on low-end laptops (I have a couple) with limited screen resolution use it a lot more than those with a nice big monitor with lots of real estate. I frequently run my browser and email clients in maximized mode. Granted, in these cases I don't tend to leave maximized mode either.

In general, I'm willing to give it a try, especially since there will still likely be keyboard shortcuts for the operations and a way to restore the functionality if you don't like it.

Re:Is that really well tested in the real world? (5, Interesting)

dejanc (1528235) | more than 3 years ago | (#35389594)

With that out of the way -- why are they removing them?

Minimize is removed because the concept doesn't make much sense in GNOME Shell. Minimize only has an intuitive function when used with a panel, while in GNOME Shell all it does is make the window disappear. The last time I tried GNOME Shell, minimizing did prove to be a frustrating habit acquired by years of having a panel.

Maximize on the other hand is removed because... well, because this is GNOME we are talking about...?

Re:Is that really well tested in the real world? (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35389772)

I agree there is a problem there, but I would argue that it is not the presence of a minimise button.

Re:Is that really well tested in the real world? (1)

SydShamino (547793) | more than 3 years ago | (#35389618)

I regularly unmaximize a window, drag it to the other monitor, and maximize it again. My two monitors have different resolutions, and I move things back and forth so I'm always reading from windows on my left and typing in windows on my right.

And I minimize all the time so I can find things.

Re:Is that really well tested in the real world? (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35389730)

Funny that you do that.
Personally with an old flavor of gnome 2 (shipped with SLED 11), and two screens with different resolutions,
I have a maximized window on my left screen, simply drags it to the right screen : it automatically gets there maximized, switching to the correct resolution.

Re:Is that really well tested in the real world? (4, Interesting)

moonbender (547943) | more than 3 years ago | (#35389626)

They're arguing that minimizing is an uncommon thing to do and also one that doesn't work well within the general interface ideas behind Gnome Shell. So minimizing is, basically, deprecated. OTOH, they're not at all saying that maximizing is infrequent. What they are saying is that you should maximize in other ways: primarily by dragging the window to the top edge (that'd be the same as in Win7; the mouse gesture might be different, I haven't really tried Gnome 3); double clicking the title bar will also still work, I assume. Mouse gestures are supposedly more "gratifying" or some similar thing that will undoubtedly get a lot of hate on Slashdot.

FWIW, it's true that I only really use the close button on the title bar. I rarely minimize windows, and I invariably maximize by double clicking the title bar.

Has slashdot been taken over by The Onion? (5, Insightful)

Colin Smith (2679) | more than 3 years ago | (#35389430)

The world becomes more and more like satire every day.

 

Re:Has slashdot been taken over by The Onion? (5, Funny)

mickwd (196449) | more than 3 years ago | (#35389534)

Odd that they have a GNOME Marketing Contractor, when the GNOME Devs themselves seem to be doing such a good job of contracting their market (share).

Vin (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35389444)

That's idiotic, I suppose I'll be switching to KDE (barring GNOME coming to its senses in future versions, of course).

executive summary of approaches (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35389448)

Windows: focus groups, study users, never get it quite brilliant but basically give people what they want.

Apple: try to think about what will appeal to the user, deliver to maximise experience.

Gnome: WE DID COMP SCI IN COLLAGE AND HURD OF DON NORMAN THIS MAEKS US EXPURTS ON UI DESIGN. WE HAVE NO EVIDENCE OR TRACK RECORD BUT U WANT WAT WE WANT. WE WANT TO MAKE A NAME 4 OURSELVES PLS ACCEPT ONE OF OUR IDEAS PLS!!!

Windows? (-1, Troll)

girlintraining (1395911) | more than 3 years ago | (#35389452)

I believe I speak for many when I say -- If you give up Linux for Windows on the basis of a minor UI change, you deserve what you're signing up for.

Re:Windows? (1)

crank-a-doodle (1973286) | more than 3 years ago | (#35389612)

I soo agree with you! and frankly it's not that big a change! i mean i never use those buttons, in fact i removed them a long time ago from metacity!

Re:Windows? (1)

icepick72 (834363) | more than 3 years ago | (#35389628)

Indeed you deserve what you're signing up for: a familiar and usable UI. The Desktop has always been a contentious point between Windows and *unix. Windows likely wouldn't survive if it made flagrant UI changes because desktop users would be confused. At least there are alternatives. In this case alternatives to Gnome for those who do not wish to use it any longer. On a side note it reminds me of the damned ribbon bar introduced my Microsoft into Office products and no way to change back - people still have a hard time finding what they need, but then again they still use it, so that works against my previous point.

Even more reason.... (4, Insightful)

fishlet (93611) | more than 3 years ago | (#35389454)

For ubuntu to drop Gnome for Unity.

Re:Even more reason.... (1)

andreev (1998552) | more than 3 years ago | (#35389488)

Indeed. When the news for Ubuntu dumping GNOME came out I was actually disappointed, but it's starting to make some sense now.

Obsession with defaults (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35389456)

Really?

This is about as newsworthy as Ubuntu changing their color scheme. It's just a default, right?

Re:Obsession with defaults (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35389638)

RTFA. It's not a default, the buttons are removed for good and you can't put them back.

Though to be fair, they are not removing the functionality... they are just making it harder for the users to actually use it. As in, you can minimize with a keyboard shortcut, but not with a button anymore. Harder to use functionality = better design?

Re:Obsession with defaults (1, Insightful)

$RANDOMLUSER (804576) | more than 3 years ago | (#35389762)

...they are not removing the functionality... they are just making it harder for the users to actually use it

So, more like Windows then.

Already Running that Version on Ubuntu (3, Informative)

Laebshade (643478) | more than 3 years ago | (#35389462)

Running Ubuntu 10.10 with a gnome-shell build from the git repository, and I have to say, I love the change. The minimize and maximize functions themselves are not gone; as the summary says, you can still double click the title bar to maximize. If you want to minimize, you can right-click the titlebar, then click minimize, or using ALT+F9.

I think this is a great design change. In Gnome 2.0 and less, like windows, you would minimize windows to make room/less clutter for windows you're actually using at that top. Now, instead of minimizing, a better method is to move it down a screen (right-click, move to workspace down), or zoom out to activity view, drag the screen from one screen to another. I find when I have a lot going on -- multiple browser windows, terminals, ftp client -- I use this a lot. It comes in handy being able to separate each website you're working on, each server, into it's own workspace, free from intrusions and other unrelated stuff.

Good job Gnome devs!

Re:Already Running that Version on Ubuntu (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35389502)

>In Gnome 2.0 and less, like windows, you would minimize windows to make room/less clutter for windows you're actually using at that top. Now, instead of minimizing, a better method is to move it down a screen (right-click, move to workspace down), or zoom out to activity view, drag the screen from one screen to another.

And if I don't know how to do any of those things, and wouldn't think to ask about 'activity views' or 'workspace downs', then i'm just entirely lost and feel that your UI is opaque and obtuse.

Looks suspiciously Mac-like (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35389464)

Perhaps the GNOME developers will come up with some ideas of their own with version 4?

Re:Looks suspiciously Mac-like (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35389574)

Tell the Gnomes to Get Off My Lawn! Damn Gnomes!

So have they fixed the Window List (1)

Colin Smith (2679) | more than 3 years ago | (#35389474)

Such that it can be used vertically?

 

Re:So have they fixed the Window List (1)

gehrehmee (16338) | more than 3 years ago | (#35389696)

They have, in the sense that the window list doesn't exist anymore :) Instead, you zoom-out to a expose-style view of what's going on. For windows that need your attention (they used to blink in the window list), you should get notifications by another means.... but I'm not up on what that looks like these days.

IceWM FTW (5, Informative)

dabadab (126782) | more than 3 years ago | (#35389476)

It seems like both the KDE and the GNOME folks have decided that they need to reinvent this whole desktop thing. KDE decided that icons are unnecessary, now GNOME deems maximize/minimize buttons unneeded.
Guess I'm lucky to use IceWM which still works the way it worked ten years ago - and I find that a good thing.

Re:IceWM FTW (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35389528)

Well, you can have your icons on your desktop if you like. It is an option away.

Re:IceWM FTW (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35389600)

I agree. I haven't tried GNOME yet but having used KDE 4.x I have the feeling that these new UIs seem to be designed for people who want everything to be taken care of. For example: When I put in a CD/DVD on KDE 4.x I don't get a simple CD/DVD icon, instead I get a menu which just gives me a couple of choices. I'm really annoyed by that. It seems like these new UIs are designed for users who don't want to think too much. I think there's a certain trend away from the folder-paradigm to a pure UI- or maybe application-paradigm without folders. Your Photos are stored somewhere but you don't really know where, you just click your photo application and there they are. For inexperienced computer users this might be useful but for experienced users i think it's annoying.

Thus, I love the quick and simple UI of Haiku which gives me all the freedoms I want, is stripped down, without any bloat. Is there anything quick and slick available for Linux?

Re:IceWM FTW (1)

Baseclass (785652) | more than 3 years ago | (#35389672)

KDE has gotten way to bloated for my taste.
I haven't used Gnome for over 10 years so I have no comment in that regard.
For me, XFCE strikes the perfect balance between form and function. YMMV

I'll try it when it comes out... (1)

T-Mckenney (2008418) | more than 3 years ago | (#35389484)

I'll try it when it comes out, (No i havent tried the beta, nor do I want to), but if they completely screw the pooch on this one, ill stick with Gnome 2.x or if Unity is any better, ill try that. If KDE gets any better, ill use that, but until then, im sticking to my Gnome 2.x

nothing like progress to fsck things up (1)

FudRucker (866063) | more than 3 years ago | (#35389486)

when kde-4 came out i hated it, i still dont like it and i keep trying it hoping it will improve, it took me a long time to tolerate gnome-2.x after switching from gnome-1.4 (which i loved) anymore i prefer using xfce, icewm or openbox, with rox-filer drawing desktop icons & wallpaper, and i like keeping an eye on the lightweight window mangers anymore, the Gnome/KDE environments are just too busy and try to be too much for me to like anymore.

I dont want to drag anything. (5, Insightful)

unity100 (970058) | more than 3 years ago | (#35389492)

Dragging is more stress-inducing to the hand than simply clicking mouse. we do countless minimize-maximize actions over the course of a normal workday.

I cant risk more potential for RSI, just because a few people think that is better to do so.

Excuse me gnome, but you are losing me.

Re:I dont want to drag anything. (0)

tabrnaker (741668) | more than 3 years ago | (#35389610)

we do countless minimize-maximize actions over the course of a normal workday.

It seems like you do not know how to work your window-manager. I can't even remember the last time i had to use maximise or minimize.

Re:I dont want to drag anything. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35389784)

Spoken like a true gnome-brain; when users dislike your stinking brainfarts, blame the user.

Re:I dont want to drag anything. (1)

Nerdfest (867930) | more than 3 years ago | (#35389642)

The keyboard is still the least stress inducing ... and I think it will still be there as well.

Re:I dont want to drag anything. (1)

peragrin (659227) | more than 3 years ago | (#35389650)

countless minimize maximize actions?

Damn what are you doing wrong and why doesn't your GUI open windows properly?

I spend more time dragging things between monitors and rarely touch hose dumb buttons.

it sounds like you need a better task switcher too.

Re:I dont want to drag anything. (1)

unity100 (970058) | more than 3 years ago | (#35389724)

im not doing anything wrong. i have to open many windows with different apps. and not everyone has to fork out cash to buy multiple monitors. its the job of a window manager to manage windows. not hardware.

Re:I dont want to drag anything. (1)

dingen (958134) | more than 3 years ago | (#35389766)

i have to open many windows with different apps

So... what's wrong with your tab button?

What do you think? (0)

countertrolling (1585477) | more than 3 years ago | (#35389494)

Translation: I'm bored. Let's start a flame war

Re:What do you think? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35389582)

The left wing in Europe: what happened over the last 15 years?

Why is the response to banker misbehaviour even more pro-banker government?

How can capitalism, a philosophy which relies on working only for yourself, be regarded as the tough-but-rewarding option, but socialism is regarded as for the lazy. Socialism requires you to both work for yourself and for the good of others.

And how can anyone argue that an approach which assumes that humans are inherently selfish cunts and which relies on greed is going to be more successful than one which takes the positive aspects of humanity and assumes that humans are able to take responsibility of their own means of production in order to benefit the whole group?

Should we be glad that society is destroying itself? Must it fully receive what it deserves before the critical third group together to do what's overdue?

Proceed.

What does this improve? (5, Insightful)

occamsarmyknife (673159) | more than 3 years ago | (#35389500)

I like clean interfaces, but seriously, what does this help? It doesn't save space, the title bar is still there. Ignoring those buttons costs nothing, and replacing a button with a non-graphical multiple-action like double clicking isn't making an interface simpler, it's making it more complex. I understand the confusion about a minimize button with no taskbar, but this doesn't seem like a particularly well thought out design change. We got rid of feature X, so action Y isn't the same anymore. Okay, just get rid of it.

Re:What does this improve? (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35389636)

It improves job prospects for so-called "usability" geeks who can sell themselves by writing pseudo-intellectual crap about how they improved things. See also the removal of the status bar, protocol string and other such stuff from web browsers.

Most people can't be bothered to learn how to use software applications so everybody should dumb-down to their level! Of course Gnome was a real innovator here with v2 when everybody stopped using it. And hey; I hear mobile devices are the new coolz so no matter how limited you find mobile apps, desktop software is now going to copy the UI.

You just know these usability bastards are going to show equal contempt when, having fucked-up desktops, they set their sights on the command line.

Re:What does this improve? (3, Interesting)

equex (747231) | more than 3 years ago | (#35389690)

Seems to me Gnome 3 screenshots had their titlebars eating like 20% of the vertical space. Plenty of room for _more_ buttons in the title bar, actually. This is bull.

Win7 already marginalized them (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35389504)

I often switch between WinXP and Win7 computers at work. The #1 feature that I like about Win7 is NOT using the minimize/maximize buttons. Dragging the titlebar for a 'restore' is practically built into my psyche now, even though it's a relatively new action.

That means I don't really think I'll miss those little buttons. I always thought there were too many up there anyway. I cringed at additions that added MORE buttons to the corners.

Re:Win7 already marginalized them (2)

Totenglocke (1291680) | more than 3 years ago | (#35389548)

I use Windows 7 and never, ever use that. In fact, it pisses me off that a good 10% of the time when you're just re-arranging windows, it wants to maximize something instead. I'd be interested in knowing why you like the click and drag over clicking a min/max button, which means taking a good 300% more time to maximize a window.

Re:Win7 already marginalized them (1)

IceCreamGuy (904648) | more than 3 years ago | (#35389734)

...which means taking a good 300% more time to maximize a window

I disagree, I feel that the time it takes me to center my mouse over a tiny little button and click it is about the same amount of time as it takes me to quickly swipe the pointer up the screen dragging the titlebar to the top. In addition, if you use multiple monitors, this feature rocks - you can drag a maximized window from one monitor to another and keep it maximized. This may sound trivial, however if you used multiple monitors in XP you would know how annoying it is to have to minimize or restore a window, then drag, then maximize. In addition, I rarely actually use the mouse for these functions (indeed I rarely use these functions), I use meta+up for maximize, meta+left/right for side-snap, and meta+down for minimize. I guarantee that's quicker than doing anything with a mouse.

I also never, ever minimize, I just keep everything maximized and alt-tab. I can't stand using an application that's not taking up the whole screen. If I really need to look at two things at once I use the Win7 side-snap. That's what the Gnome designers are saying, as well: just don't minimize, ever, because what's the real point? And with maximize - are you really claiming that double-clicking anywhere in the titlebar is 3x slower than getting your pointer into the maximize button? In the end It still does just come down to personal preference, though; if you have two programmers watch each other use a computer for 30 minutes, I guarantee each of them will walk away thinking that the other wastes time in navigation.

"Drag-to-snap is more enjoyable" (2)

VGPowerlord (621254) | more than 3 years ago | (#35389506)

Drag-to-snap is more enjoyable than pressing a button to resize.

UI tasks enjoyable? What drug is this blogger on?

A UI's purpose isn't to be enjoyable, it's to let the user do what he wants/needs to do and otherwise stay out of the way.

Case in point: Clicking a button is going to be a lot quicker and require me to do less thinking than dragging a window around.

Having said that, I like snap and would like to see several of its features included, but not as the primary replacement for the maximize button.

Need to get windows out of the way (1)

Todd Knarr (15451) | more than 3 years ago | (#35389508)

I don't care so much about minimize or maximize buttons. I just need two things: a way to get the window as big as physically possible for when I'm working in one app and need the screen real estate, and a way to get windows that I need open but don't need to pay attention to at the moment out of the way. Example the first: I'm working in a graphics app, don't expect to be doing anything but drawing and working in it while I've got it open, and want as much of the screen for the image as I can get. Example the second: the documentation web site I'm referring to occasionally while I'm coding that I don't want cluttering things up when I'm not actively reading it, but I don't want to close it and lose my location or page history on it.

Re:Need to get windows out of the way (1)

dingen (958134) | more than 3 years ago | (#35389542)

Exactly. I never ever use the minimize function. What I do use are the functions to hide windows and I don't need a button in the top of the window for that.

I was reluctant when... (1)

emanem (1356033) | more than 3 years ago | (#35389514)

...Ubuntu moved the minimize/maximize on the other side, but I have to say it hasn't been too much trouble. Looking forward to this one! Cheers!

Just how do minimize and maximize complicate? (1)

MikeV (7307) | more than 3 years ago | (#35389522)

I like being able to expand my windows for more acreage - and put them aside when I need to focus on other things. Just how does that complicate the UI? Two little buttons - is that too much to ask for?

Make it configurable (5, Insightful)

mfnickster (182520) | more than 3 years ago | (#35389530)

When are we going to get an interface that is totally configurable to user preferences?

Someday, I'd love to sit down at a computer, point it to the URL where my interface preferences live, and presto - it instantly becomes the desktop I'm most familiar with.

Think of it as the GUI equivalent of setting your shell in .profile.

Re:Make it configurable (2)

pretzel87 (2009488) | more than 3 years ago | (#35389562)

That would be way too logical... give us a ..... choice? what would we complain about then? this happens every time developers try to be progressive. It's like why don't they just make it an option? or a simple UI plugin to change it back.

Re:Make it configurable (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35389682)

That would be way too logical... give us a ..... choice? what would we complain about then?

We'd complain about the default options on the choices. Duh. ... or the lack of a default option, if the devs are sneaky enough to try to nip that in the butt.

Off to KDE (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35389536)

That tears it. I guess I'm switching to KDE. Lots of interesting changes there too but mostly in a positive direction.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Was that minimize button really hurting anything?

A new hope (2)

VincenzoRomano (881055) | more than 3 years ago | (#35389544)

The hope is that the developers will put more attention to the meat by fixing the numerous bugs that are lurking into the GNOME suite.
Otherwise they'll end up with a new KDE 4.0 fiasco.
Anyway, hiding buttons is not a real great advance in my humble opinion.

Is that really the most noteworthy change? (1)

penguinchris (1020961) | more than 3 years ago | (#35389552)

I didn't read the article, but clicked on the link to the Gnome 3 page. Seems like an incredibly massive overhaul with loads of changes. Is this really the best article that could be come up with to start a discussion on slashdot about Gnome 3?

Personally, I like the sound of it, but the website is extremely ambiguous. I can't tell what's going on in any of the screenshots. Some screencast videos or something would be helpful. The text descriptions don't really help, either. I might have to try it out - kudos to them for providing a live CD just to test Gnome 3.

It seems heavily inspired by OS X, including some stuff we won't see until OS X 10.7. Not a bad thing at all, as I primarily use OS X these days and really like the interface and am looking forward to the improvements in 10.7. I don't see the need to rip on UI designers for copying good ideas from elsewhere, everyone does it, and it eventually makes every OS UI better (KDE 4 is still pretty shocking, though).

Xfce 4.8 is already out (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35389556)

>swearing to wait for GNOME 3.2, switch to KDE or even Windows

Pfff. Xfce 4.8 is already out. Let's switch to that and leave GNOME 3 to it's fate.

Re:Xfce 4.8 is already out (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35389674)

Xfce or KDE for me, haven't quite decided yet. I didn't like older versions of Xfce, has it improved much lately?

I'll wait and hope it's a good system (1)

Tigger's Pet (130655) | more than 3 years ago | (#35389560)

The screenshots of GNOME 3 make me glad that I went with Mint GNOME, rather than going for the KDE desktop purely for its looks. I like the look of the new GNOME and can't wait to test it out. The loss of minimize/maximize doesn't worry me in the least as I almost always run windows at full-screen and I have no doubt that I can continue to use a keyboard shortcut to 'wipe' the screen and hide all open applications whenever I want to. That, linked with 'ALT'+'TAB' to switch back to the application I want will do me just fine.

How about Zoom? (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35389564)

The old Mac "Zoom" button was actually the best. It would resize the window to fit the content, then toggle between that and the size of the window before zooming. It is probably difficult to understand how useful it is unless you have used it for a while. Some developers also incorporated an option-click to maximize.

Not even Apple does it right with any consistency anymore, as they drift more and more toward Windows conventions or try to jam a touch interface onto their desktop OS.

Don't force UI changes on users (2)

rmcd (53236) | more than 3 years ago | (#35389572)

I haven't used Gnome 3 so I don't know if I like this change. But I have one request for the devs: ***PLEASE*** make it *easily* possible to retain the Gnome 2 look and feel if a user prefers that. TFA wasn't clear about whether this would be possible.

You become comfortable working in a particular way. Then you upgrade ---all your reflexes are wrong and you have to waste time relearning the interface. If I'm productive, let me stick with what I know. For a developer to alter the UI without a downgrade path (as MS did with the Office ribbon) is the height of solipsistic arrogance.

Re:Don't force UI changes on users (1, Insightful)

dingen (958134) | more than 3 years ago | (#35389664)

If a minor UI change like this really is that much of an impact on your productivity, then maybe working with computers is just not for you. Things change all the time. You're not working the same way you were 5 years ago, which is different from 10 years ago, which is different from 20 years ago. People adjust to that an carry on, or try to stick with what they're used to in vain and get left behind.

I'm not saying every time something changes, there is progress. I'm not saying every change is really an improvement. But people should be able to adjust to almost any change in computing without too much of a fuss, because things just change. That's just how it is, how it has been and how it will be.

Screw it, I'm getting a Mac (5, Insightful)

Just Some Guy (3352) | more than 3 years ago | (#35389590)

I love Linux, but it's like everyone mutually agreed to abandon desktop sanity. KDE never met an option they didn't like, and Gnome never met one they did. I've used both extensively and recently but both make me spend more time cussing at the screen than I want to. I've held on to Linux (and FreeBSD) desktops for over a decade but I give up. It's not going to happen. I'm still going to work on a Unix all day, but I'm switching to the pretty one.

Re:Screw it, I'm getting a Mac (2)

pizzach (1011925) | more than 3 years ago | (#35389752)

You would also be switching to the OS that traded the zoom to fit button for maximize, added a minimize button on version 10, put back icons on the desktop after users revolted, and now just like MS Windows you can resize the windows from any side of the border.

It might not be a bad change for most people.

The only thing that scares me is the drag to top to maximize. I flick my windows around my desktop, so having them do that when I brink them to the top on a small screen drives me nuts.

Usability testing by actual users? (4, Insightful)

Vellmont (569020) | more than 3 years ago | (#35389592)

This is such a drastic step of changing a UI paradign that's existed for the past 25+ years, and the only justifications I see for it are completely theoretical ones. Where's the usability testing by actual users to see if the theories hold any water?

Both sides can argue about what THEY think the user will prefer. The arguments can sound extrodinarily convincing, but what actually matters is how it performs in the real world with actual users. The solution to this problem seems to be "just put it in the next release and see if people revolt enough" rather than conducting actual controlled tests. IMO this is an extrodinarily flawed approach. A controlled test gives you non-biased opinions rather than political ones. This approach only seems to create a rift between the two opposing sides rather than finding out what's the best UI experience for the user.

Re:Usability testing by actual users? (0)

dingen (958134) | more than 3 years ago | (#35389688)

25 years of minimize/maximize buttons in the title bar of a window? What GUI from 1986 are you talking about?

We have found... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35389604)

.. The perfect candidates to the title "The most stupidest people in the world" (Peraphs the universe): The GNOME usability team and maybe the GNOME UI Coders.

Really.

How many windows do you have minimized rignt now? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35389606)

If your answer is zero then you may like the new Gnome plan. But I currently have five windows minimized.

I probably won't be using the new Gnome interface on my Linux box...

Crap, I went to Gnome from KDE because KDE broke their interface... Now I will have to move to one of the lesser known user interfaces.

Nothing like change for the sake of change...

Good idea / Cleanup (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35389620)

I seldom use them anyway. Either I double-click on the title bar to maximize/unmaximize a window or use the task bar or the window hider. Do really all of you move the pointer to these small, almost rudimentary icons to do these things?
Hopefully this won't be the reason many people drop gnome and switch to KDE for, but IMO it would be worse to remove the close button.

And Bruce Byfield accuses Ubuntu of tyranny (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35389632)

maximize and minimize buttons are an integral part of the existing UI in most desktops shells (except those on mobile phone OSs).

But for some apparent reason GNOME always want to saddle UI with "interesting designs" (remember spatial view in nautilus, it only took GNOME 8 years to figure out it was a step in the wrong direction).

But in the recent Article - "Where did to the Love Go",
http://itmanagement.earthweb.com/osrc/article.php/12068_3925641_2/Ubuntu-Where-Did-the-Love-Go.htm

Bruce says:
"When changes proposed by Ubuntu were slow to be accepted in GNOME -- some say out of hostility -- Shuttleworth began making interface changes to GNOME within Ubuntu. They were accompanied by the announcement of an elaborate new look for Ubuntu that included complicated color codes and a new font.

Then, faced with the choice of supporting these changes in an old version of GNOME or transferring them to GNOME 3.0, Ubuntu announced Unity, a shell for GNOME that was originally designed for netbook computers, would be its new desktop.

This growing tendency to develop in-house has been accompanied by other signs of insularity."

Who is insular now and forcing things on people?

Hold up if your running to Windows. (1)

CFBMoo1 (157453) | more than 3 years ago | (#35389634)

Apparently they might lose the buttons as well for Windows 8 if the rumor mill about a bubble interface is true.

http://www.ispyce.com/2011/02/microsoft-shows-off-radical-new-ui.html

Double clicking titlebar... (2)

xded (1046894) | more than 3 years ago | (#35389640)

... always worked as an alternative for maximize/restore on MS Windows. Just like double clicking the top-left corner closes a windows since Windows 3 at least.

No problem (1)

Black Parrot (19622) | more than 3 years ago | (#35389644)

Just use Sawfish. I can maximize/unmaximize horizontally and vertically either independently or together, roll up windowshade style, and of course minimize or close, each with a single click. More options in a menu, which I could move to buttons if I used them often enough.

The first thing I do when I upgrade Ubuntu is start seeing what it's going to take to make Sawfish work.

Sawfish was GNOME's original WM. They've spent years replacing good functional WMs for less functional ones. Sounds like they've just about finished the race to the bottom.

Re:No problem (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35389782)

I just use fluxbox. I finally have a snappy interface. And yes, I have HW accelerated video cards (nvidia).

I use them all the time (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35389652)

Who's stupid idea was this? They should be fired!

So many people complaining every time GUI's change (2)

Isaac Remuant (1891806) | more than 3 years ago | (#35389654)

I'm thinking, for example, about Firefox 4. It's bar is very customizable and you can set it up to fit whatever needs you might have (ultimately resembling FF3 look, if you so please) but people still keep complaining before, during and after.

I'm not sure if GNOME is customizable or to what degree and think that this should probably be the case, BUT, what's wrong with us as users/commenters of this software/websites that we manage to make 90 % of all the feedback sound like cynical blabbering?

Disclaimer: Statistics in this post are made up to represent the poster's view.

Addendum (1)

Isaac Remuant (1891806) | more than 3 years ago | (#35389694)

I'm not discouraging discussion and critique. I'm just expressing my wish that said critic focused more on the necessary changes and an attempt to be constructive instead of insulting, demeaning or outright trolling the creators of the GUI or other people who wish to incur in a sane debate.

Re:So many people complaining every time GUI's cha (2)

dingen (958134) | more than 3 years ago | (#35389748)

Well, I guess there are 2 types of GUI's: ones everyone complain about and ones nobody uses.

Mobile Applications? (1)

NateOsit (1990192) | more than 3 years ago | (#35389660)

Might this be a move to adapt GNOME to mobile devices? Or to give users an experience similar to mobile platforms? Not having a Min/Max button on my phone has certainly simplified things for me.

Oh, Gnome... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35389692)

Yet another example of the Gnome devs having their heads up their collective asses. No idea why any distro would willingly use Gnome as their design philosophy seems to be "let's try randomly doing things that make no sense in the real world and giving users fewer options".

There is no need for them anyway (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35389704)

ALT+F5
ALT+F10

Double-click in title bar to maximize?? (2)

Jaxoreth (208176) | more than 3 years ago | (#35389726)

This can't possibly be the least bit confusing to Mac users who've been double-clicking in the title bar to minimize for fifteen years. /sarcasm

I can go with this, but for fixing one bug (2)

LiquidCoooled (634315) | more than 3 years ago | (#35389728)

There is a bug in GNOME which screws up the window manager if you double click the title bar.
Noted here:
https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=436537 [gnome.org]
"clicking in upper right corner closes window in background - very unexpected"

Very frustrating and GNOME is doing the wrong thing.

I suppose it will be good to remove the other buttons so that more people experience this, and hence a fix can be found.

Wasted space (1)

The Infamous Grimace (525297) | more than 3 years ago | (#35389742)

Seems to be a lot of it on the top portion of the window. I've noticed this same thing in Ubuntu - i.e. Rhythmbox. Seems like better use could be made of the title and menu bar space. IMHO.

-Peter

None of the reasoning makes any sense (5, Insightful)

Posting=!Working (197779) | more than 3 years ago | (#35389764)

So they took a button on the screen you could click and turned into a keyboard shortcut, and one of the benefits listed in the article is that it is more touch-friendly.

It is nice that they took them out and used that space for nothing. I'm not sure how replacing useful buttons with more pixels that do nothing and convey no information helps.

Another argument given is that there's no dock or windows list to minimize to, but if you want to switch to a different window, you go to the overview, which is exactly like a windows list or dock, but less convenient.

Reading Owens explanation was painful. He starts with revealing that he never minimizes anything and then speculates randomly on why people would use it (missing nearly all of the reasons I use it), then bases everything on 2 peoples opinions who he had work without minimize buttons for a while.

The reasons for getting rid of the maximize button is they though it emphasized the title bar as a way to resize the window (WTF?) and that the new way is more enjoyable (WTFFF?)

I haven't found a single reason that wasn't based on incredibly minor aesthetics or really screwed up views of "emphasis" or "mental models."

Can anyone give an actual reason for doing this?

Gnome always had this problem of bad decisions.... (5, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35389768)

... from the very beginning.

I lost track of all the "cool" but horrible ideas which made it into gnome.

- CORBA after it had long died
- XML
- GConf (the horrors of the windows registry re-implemented by monkeys)
- C# and Mono - embracing Microsoft technology!
- Umpteen window manager changes, none good enough

The sad part is that the other DE's are not in a good shape either. KDE 4 has come out of the woods recently. Enlightenment is still not out. XFCE does not have that traction. GNUstep is like HURD, barely alive.

May be writing a good GUI is beyond something that can be accomplished by a mainly volunteer community...

Touch prepare (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35389778)

Something must be done to be able to use multi touch with standard Gnome and KDE. We should not wait for Apple or MS to solve this problem and then just copy them, like OSS uses to.

Apple is working on merging iOS and Mac OSX if you don't realize it. When they are done you will have the power of a traditional OS onto a tablet format. MS knows if they loose this battle they will loose the war, they NEED to make possible standard win32 work fine with touch screens or they will loose Windows and Office monopoly.

If Apple is the first to secure big touch screen mass production, MS will lose so much that MS will do EVERYTHING to not let this happen, like they did with netbooks(where are the linux netbooks anymore?, MS bought every single netbook manufacturer to comply(Asus only recommends...) like they did with DirectX market over OpenGL ).

MS got their monopoly on the Windows paradigm sift with the control of the graphic environment witch gave them at least 2-3 years ahead competition, they let them use outdated libs while they used the new ones. Wordperfect(once THE word processor) or Borland could not compete with word or Visual Studio as they did not have the libraries MS used until it was too late.

GNOME3 = KDE4 (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35389788)

Looks like the GNOME3 team is following in the footsteps of KDE4. Basically, a bunch of idiots who don't use their computers for real work are designing the UI.

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