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'Son of ACTA' Worse Than Original

Soulskill posted more than 3 years ago | from the sequels-are-never-as-good dept.

Patents 288

An anonymous reader writes "TechDirt has the latest on the leaked US proposals for the 'Son of ACTA' treaty and it looks worse than the original. It's practically a checklist for how to kill innovation while making lawyers rich. In particular, they call for expanding what's patentable, blocking people from buying copyrighted goods in other countries and taking them home, expanding liability for ISPs whose users commit acts of infringement, forcing ISPs to identify their users to anyone on demand, and getting rid of third-party patent review while expanding the presumption that they're valid. The only way it could get any worse would be if it were enacted in law."

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Big surprise (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35457872)

I already ignore all MPAA/RIAA bought laws. How will this be any different?

Re:Big surprise (2)

FriendlyLurker (50431) | more than 3 years ago | (#35458388)

Good old Overton Window [wikipedia.org] , good for treaties too. People will be so shocked at how far this new proposal goes, that they will be happy to bend over and take the original "moderate" version of ACTA.

Implying (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35457902)

hurr durr derp derp

good (3, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35457914)

This is where capitalism takes you. By definition, a philosophy based on the rule of the most supremely selfishly rational is going to end up with these people trying to change the law to increase their wealth.

Re:good (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35458060)

Shut the fuck up you ignorant little shit, you know nothing about anything. If you don't like all the great things that Capitalism has done, then move to China and jack off to Marx you stupid idiot.

Re:good (-1, Troll)

extraordinaire (2010224) | more than 3 years ago | (#35458312)

If I had mod points, I'd mod you up. This is the absolute fucking truth. I'm so fucking tired of the anti-capitalists on slashdot. It's the most annoying aspect about the site.

Re:good (2, Funny)

thomasdz (178114) | more than 3 years ago | (#35458490)

If I had mod points, I'd mod you up. This is the absolute fucking truth. I'm so fucking tired of the anti-capitalists on slashdot. It's the most annoying aspect about the site.

I think you need to sit down with your neighbors in your building's common room, next to the "trouble bush" (fed by the spring) and have a discussion about this... remember the talking stick that we pass around. the more we share, the better our lives are. the more we rid our lives of the scramble for possessions and monetary wealth, the higher we become.

Peace & Love,

Thomas

Kettle meet Pot (2)

TheP4st (1164315) | more than 3 years ago | (#35458618)

RTFA then read this [wikipedia.org]

This is *NOT* capitalism (5, Insightful)

mangu (126918) | more than 3 years ago | (#35458088)

Having the government make laws to give privileges to a selected few is absolutely not what capitalism is about.

This is FEUDALISM.

Re:This is *NOT* capitalism (0, Flamebait)

Lehk228 (705449) | more than 3 years ago | (#35458228)

every single major supporter of "capitalism" on the right is actually supporting crony capitalism / feudalism

except for one

ron paul

and his supporters do wonderful things like shoot congresswomen and little girls.

Re:This is *NOT* capitalism (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35458262)

and his supporters do wonderful things like shoot congresswomen and little girls.

What? I thought that shooter was a Palin herp derper.

Re:This is *NOT* capitalism (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35458322)

More likely off-the-deep-end crazy, based on the writings and videos he made public. I doubt politics had anything to do with his actions.

Re:This is *NOT* capitalism (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35458330)

Those are Sarah Palin's.

Re:This is *NOT* capitalism (2)

extraordinaire (2010224) | more than 3 years ago | (#35458332)

Interesting how the students who went to school with that character described him as an "extreme leftist." The notion that the fellow was a Ron Paul supporter was completely debunked mere minutes after Keith Olbermann and crew tried to tie him to it.

Re:This is *NOT* capitalism (1)

The Grim Reefer2 (1195989) | more than 3 years ago | (#35458494)

Interesting how the students who went to school with that character described him as an "extreme leftist."

The notion that the fellow was a Ron Paul supporter was completely debunked mere minutes after Keith Olbermann and crew tried to tie him to it.

This is Slashdot. Stop trying to interject facts into the discussion.

Re:This is *NOT* capitalism (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35458702)

In the classical sense, Paul is quite the leftist: recall the French revolutionary "liberty, equality, fraternity" which provided philosophical basis for the American revolution.

Of course, a political diagnosis from a mob of US college students is as reliable as a chocolate teapot.

Regardless, judging an idea by the craziest individuals who claim to practice it is a trivial fallacy. (And the habit of doing this makes it quite easy to discredit an idea by doing something horrible in its name.)

Re:This is *NOT* capitalism (3, Insightful)

istartedi (132515) | more than 3 years ago | (#35458436)

Ron Paul has no new ideas. He just wants to take us on a trip down memory lane, back to the preconditions that got us here in the first place.

We need a Theodore Roosevelt (trust buster) not a Ron Paul. And as I put my hand to my face, shield it from the blinding Sun and scan the horizon of the Fruited Plain, I see no Rough Rider coming to save us.

We will have to do it ourselves, somehow.

"Ad Hominem" (1)

mangu (126918) | more than 3 years ago | (#35458460)

Look, if you want to fight capitalism, you need to focus on the idea of capitalism, not on the people who you define as "capitalists".

Otherwise, you will fall into the "No True Scotsman" [wikipedia.org] logical fallacy.

Re:This is *NOT* capitalism (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35458486)

I find it absolutely hilarious that there are people foolish enough to believe that line of pure crap. What else will you believe? That Santa Jesus loves you too?

Sheesh.

Re:This is *NOT* capitalism (1)

navyjeff (900138) | more than 3 years ago | (#35459092)

Santa Jesus loves you. Everyone else thinks you're on the naughty list.

Re:This is *NOT* capitalism (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35458344)

(1) Make your philosophy less idealist and more materialist: what matters is what is done, and "ideal" capitalism inevitably leads to crony capitalism;

(2) These laws apply to everyone anyway. You might as well say that property law only exists to give privileges to those who own property. (And you'd have a point, but I'm fairly sure it's not the point you're trying to make.)

Re:This is *NOT* capitalism (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35458888)

Things like ACTA are what will bring the "Day of Rage" protests into the western world. In the 1960s, similar protests in the USA were marginalized but this time around, western governments will look far more like the bad guys in the global context.

Re:This is *NOT* capitalism (5, Insightful)

hairyfeet (841228) | more than 3 years ago | (#35459006)

Actually capitalism is nearing its end, whether the 1%ers like it or not, simply because technology kills capitalism dead in the long run, there is simply no escaping that fact. I'm sure some will say "capitalism and tech go great together!" but this ignores a simple truth: The entire premise of capitalism is trading labor for capital but what happens when that labor is no longer valuable?

I'd say probably half the USA population isn't qualified and will never be for anything that can't be done better by a machine, and each year the musical chairs that is "jobs not able to be done better by machine" will shrink smaller and smaller. So we either come up with "make work" to give an excuse to cut these people a check, have massive unemployment and underemployment which will eventually lead to a tipping point and massive civil unrest, or we find a new way (perhaps resource based) to do things.

After all who thinks it would be hard to automate a McDonald's? The service industry will be the next to go and for many that is all that is left. So the 1%ers better enjoy their time in the sun, because those peasants won't just go quietly starve to death. Technology makes the worker pointless, and by sticking with capitalism you just make sure that now unemployed worker won't have any way to take care of themselves. Like delivering mail on horseback the capitalist way of trading labor for money is simply a dead end.

As for TFA it is a perfect example, an attempt for the old money buggy whip manufacturers to hang onto their business model in the face of technology. Whatever idiot thought the USA could survive as an "IP based economy" really should be shot, as you are trying to force scarcity into a medium where none exists. They spend ever more money on ever more draconian laws to prop up a dying business model. Countries like China aren't gonna give a shit about your "IP based economy" when they can keep their money and just make copies, so you get a "giant sucking sound" where all the money goes out and never comes back.

So until they wake up and smell the fail and start working on new business strategies that take the abundance and ease of propagation into effect they are just wasting their money. More and more of the population simply doesn't play your reindeer games anymore, so what are you gonna do? unplug the planet?

Ok (3, Insightful)

Sycraft-fu (314770) | more than 3 years ago | (#35458708)

Then let's hear your better system. I don't think anyone except for maybe crazy libertarians claim capitalism is perfect, or the be-all, end-all of economic systems. However so far nobody has come up with anything better. Communism sounds nice on paper but doesn't work in the real world.

You'll notice that capitalism underlies the economy of all successful, well off, countries in the world. Now that doesn't mean it can or should be implemented without any checks, clearly all capitalist nations have counterbalances to it but the fundamentals of capitalism are what underlie their systems because it works.

So, let's hear it then. You clearly think capitalism ought to go away right now which implies you have something better. Let's hear what that as, as we'd all be interested in a genuinely better economic system. Do your homework first though, because a lot of them have been tried and failed.

However I'm going to guess you do not in fact have a good answer since you clearly don't know what you are talking about. The reason is that these things being proposed are actually ANTI-capitalist. In a true free market, there are no artificial restrictions of any kinds. So buying goods over seas and selling them for a profit at home is 100% kosher (it's called arbitrage and is common). As such if you think these are bad, then really you are being pro-capitalist as it stands.

Re:good (3, Interesting)

suomynonAyletamitlU (1618513) | more than 3 years ago | (#35458944)

"This is where it takes you" is an apt way to put it. I don't think capitalism was ever meant to be a final solution; it was meant to be a steppingstone, and it was far in advance of pre-capitalist systems in terms of the social change it's allowed.

Capitalist means the capital--means of production--are privately held and can be used for private profit. The alternative is capital being held by the state, which is amazingly good at keeping the status quo or responding to clear challenges (invasions, keeping up with the Jones, space race, energy race, etc) but is not nearly nimble enough to drive innovation by random, untested entrepreneurs. There's frankly no way that such people could have driven innovation unless they could could convince The Authority Figure with The Money to give it to them. Now, at worst, they have to convince An Authority figure with Money, but it could be one of hundreds (or maybe thousands or millions, depending on the startup costs).

But it ain't right, because in the end, what do you do when you've beaten the game (to put it in such terms)? If you've ever played a game like Civilization or even one more directly about Just Making Money, you know that eventually you've achieved every achievement and the game just ends. But if that game were your life, what do you do when you no longer have profit to make? Game over don't happen 'til you die.

If you ask me, the people who are doing this shit are (to extend the metaphor unduly) people who've completed the game and are going after every last achievement, even the ones the designers put in there just to be dicks. "Become the leading producers of entertainment worldwide--check. Pass legislation worldwide so that every poor sod worldwide is under your thumb--working on it. Wait... become a tyrant that's destroying the happiness of billions... why do I have this achievement?"

Seriously, they've lost their focus and their minds, and they ought to either be shot or stripped of all money and forbidden from ever engaging in capitalist endeavors again.

Kill'em all (2)

The Grim Reefer2 (1195989) | more than 3 years ago | (#35457918)

Can we just kill all of the IP lawyers now and be done with it?

Just say'in.

Re:Kill'em all (3, Insightful)

Roger Wilcox (776904) | more than 3 years ago | (#35457946)

I say we take it one step further and kill all humans. Cleaner and simpler.

Re:Kill'em all (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35458014)

I say we take it one step further and kill all humans. Cleaner and simpler.

ha, nice try skynet...

Re:Kill'em all (2, Funny)

Mordok-DestroyerOfWo (1000167) | more than 3 years ago | (#35458268)

I say we take it one step further and kill all humans. Cleaner and simpler.

ha, nice try skynet...

Really? In my head that was Bender's voice.

Re:Kill'em all (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35457962)

Kill them with fire!!!

Re:Kill'em all (1)

Voyager529 (1363959) | more than 3 years ago | (#35458138)

Kill them with fire!!!

You lack creativity and have too much compassion. The correct way to deal with the situation is to subject all RIAA/MPAA lawyers to a continual stream of the very movies and music they're responsible for 'protecting' via legislation.

Re:Kill'em all (2)

Archangel Michael (180766) | more than 3 years ago | (#35458194)

The Trial Lawyers are a major funding source for Democrats.

Big Corporations are a major funding source for Republicans

Both get what they want, and the Public gets screwed. No surprise there.

Soap boxes aren't working
Ballot boxes aren't working
Ammo boxes are illegal

Now what?

Re:Kill'em all (1)

Anthony Mouse (1927662) | more than 3 years ago | (#35458386)

Soap boxes aren't working
Ballot boxes aren't working
Ammo boxes are illegal

Now what?

You skipped one.

Change (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35457936)

You can believe in. Right up the ass.

Re:Change (0)

extraordinaire (2010224) | more than 3 years ago | (#35458364)

Don't worry AC. You'll be moderated down to -1 just as soon as the slashdot crew here figures out you're not an "if only I could toss Obama's salad I would be such a happier" leftist, anti-capitalist, statist zombie.

Beware the simplified summary (5, Informative)

jcrb (187104) | more than 3 years ago | (#35457942)

While I hate all this ACTA and related types of laws (DMCA, etc) the summary for this article is not accurate, for example it says it would forbid third party opposition to patents, which it doesn't say, what it actually says is that it prohibits them prior to the grant of a patent. And as someone with a bunch of patents from little startups, thats a good thing actually, as it would be way to easy for big corporations to make small inventors and startups waste money by filling all sorts of third party opposition during the patent prosecution.

In any case, don't believe the summary article, if you care about a particular point follow the links to the full text and read it in the original.

Re:Beware the simplified summary (1)

h4rr4r (612664) | more than 3 years ago | (#35458026)

No, it will mean that when a big company gets a patent on basically the same damn thing as you, you after to fight it after the fact in court.

Re:Beware the simplified summary (3, Informative)

h4rr4r (612664) | more than 3 years ago | (#35458114)

Holy shit! That was a fucking mess. English translation follows;

No, it will mean that when a big company gets a patent on basically the same damn thing as you, you will be forced to fight about it after the fact in court. This is something most small businesses cannot afford.

Re:Beware the simplified summary (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35458368)

True. When you have billions in the bank you can basically do what you want. Even if you lose and it costs you tens/hundreds of millions you've still delayed the competition for almost a decade and made sure they'll never be in a position to use their inventions.

Re:Beware the simplified summary (2)

tony1343 (910042) | more than 3 years ago | (#35458990)

The America Invents Act which has been passed by the Senate and being considered by the House of Representatives actually introduces a new post-grant opposition procedure to invalidate patents.

Definitely beware of the summary; it's wholly inaccurate. Unfortunately, that's usually the case when reporters report on legal statutes, bills, treaties, etc. Although, there are some good ones out there.

Everything can be copyrighted! (3, Insightful)

vrmlguy (120854) | more than 3 years ago | (#35457948)

blocking people from buying copyrighted goods in other countries and taking them home

Things that can be copyrighted: Books, nicknacks, travel brochures, the pattern on my boxers... Not only will you have to strip naked for the TSA, you'll have to remain naked while crossing national borders.

Re:Everything can be copyrighted! (4, Funny)

Culture20 (968837) | more than 3 years ago | (#35458074)

Things that can be copyrighted: Books, nicknacks, travel brochures, the pattern on my boxers...

"Sir, this skidmark is clearly derivative."
"Um, Parody?"

Re:Everything can be copyrighted! (4, Insightful)

MoonBuggy (611105) | more than 3 years ago | (#35458140)

I'm expecting to see selective enforcement - those running the show won't piss off too many members of the public because it risks backlash (and they're not on such firm 'scare tactic' footing as the TSA are, so they have more to fear from public disapproval), but they'll pull out the clause any time arbitrageurs look to take advantage of an absurd regional price difference in copyrighted goods. End result, of course, is that while the employers take advantage of cheap global labour, any disparity in goods prices can't be taken advantage of by the consumer because the identical, but lower priced foreign goods can't be imported without the permission of the copyright holder. Even without this law, we're seeing exactly that behaviour in Omega v. Costco.

they don't check to see if you have laptop us-can (1)

Joe The Dragon (967727) | more than 3 years ago | (#35458198)

they don't check to see if you have a laptop at the us can border. Much less have time to do any kind of scan.

Re:Everything can be copyrighted! (4, Insightful)

Anthony Mouse (1927662) | more than 3 years ago | (#35458310)

Things that can be copyrighted: Books, nicknacks, travel brochures, the pattern on my boxers... Not only will you have to strip naked for the TSA, you'll have to remain naked while crossing national borders.

Forget about the logistics. That's just the collateral damage. The real issue is that it enables price discrimination. Which makes the US and other countries with a high standard of living even more uncompetitive by compounding the cost advantage of foreign countries: Foreign students will get our textbooks for 5% of the US price, which means they have even lower costs and can more easily undercut our wages. Corporations license software in foreign countries for 5% of the US price, making it more cost effective to set up shop Anywhere But Here. On and on.

I know I'll get marked troll again... (-1, Flamebait)

rsilvergun (571051) | more than 3 years ago | (#35457960)

but for the Americans, I can't stress this enough: Stop Voting Republican! Come on people, it's called the lesser of two evils!

P.S. Yes, if they flip flop, like they did in the 1800s, switch sides. But RIGHT NOW Republican == BAD.

Re:I know I'll get marked troll again... (3, Insightful)

0123456 (636235) | more than 3 years ago | (#35457998)

Yes, if they flip flop, like they did in the 1800s, switch sides. But RIGHT NOW Republican == BAD.

And there I was thinking that Democrats had run the US government for the last two years.

Re:I know I'll get marked troll again... (1)

unity100 (970058) | more than 3 years ago | (#35458062)

and you apparently keep forgetting that acta was cooked up until 2006 in republican term, and when democrats took over, it was already in negotiations stage with canada.

its rep production.

Re:I know I'll get marked troll again... (1)

cobrausn (1915176) | more than 3 years ago | (#35458106)

And now they are powerless to stop it right?

Re:I know I'll get marked troll again... (2)

unity100 (970058) | more than 3 years ago | (#35458178)

to quote user 'samanta wright', just under this post :

Perhaps you haven't seen the breakdown of seats in the US Congress lately?

Re:I know I'll get marked troll again... (4, Insightful)

Archangel Michael (180766) | more than 3 years ago | (#35458206)

No, they forget that the Trial Lawyers (wing of the D party) are also involved. This is not a (D) or (R) issue, this is a DC corrupt issue. Both (D) and (R) have the proverbial blood on their hands.

Re:I know I'll get marked troll again... (2)

Svartalf (2997) | more than 3 years ago | (#35458260)

For want of mod points... You beat me to that- and it's the truth of things.

Re:I know I'll get marked troll again... (2)

Archangel Michael (180766) | more than 3 years ago | (#35458274)

So, what you're saying is that in the last 5 years, the (D) party was completely helpless in drafting Legislation. How do you expect me to believe that when the rammed a turd of Health Care Reform through in just a few months?

Gaaahhhhhh

The sad thing is, you're so stupid that you think you're smart for saying it. Don't get me wrong, the (R) will screw things up when they get their chance. It just swings from (D) to (R) and few people see that both are ruining our country.

Re:I know I'll get marked troll again... (2)

rsilvergun (571051) | more than 3 years ago | (#35458736)

The Health Care Reform bill isn't a Democrat bill. It's a Republican bill the Democrats surrendered to because they wussed out when they lost Congress. The Republicans proposed the same lousy bill when Clinton tried to socialize medicine. It's a Red Herring. A bad bill the Republicans can blame on the democrats while secretly loving every minute of it (it's free money for the insurance lobby).

The Democrats want to socialize health care in America. Just like every other first world nation on the planet. They've given up on it because the were out spent, out maneuvered and just plain scared.

The world is a complicated place. It's too complicated to waste time bandying about words like 'stupid'. Do some reading on Mother Jones and the Daily Kos. Just about everything is verifiable and true (I admit, Daily Kos sometimes embellishes, but Mother Jones is solid Journalism). Read rotten.com and fark.com. Read the independent press. And remember, the corporations are coming for you're livelihood and your middle class lifestyle. Good luck, you're going to need it.

Re:I know I'll get marked troll again... (0)

Samantha Wright (1324923) | more than 3 years ago | (#35458078)

Perhaps you haven't seen the breakdown of seats in the US Congress lately?

Re:I know I'll get marked troll again... (1)

0123456 (636235) | more than 3 years ago | (#35458174)

Perhaps you haven't seen the breakdown of seats in the US Congress lately?

Hint: how long do you think this ACTA process has been going on for?

Re:I know I'll get marked troll again... (1)

Anthony Mouse (1927662) | more than 3 years ago | (#35458770)

The executive branch turns the crank on the treaty sausage grinder.

Incidentally, I blame Joe Biden.

Re:I know I'll get marked troll again... (1)

robot256 (1635039) | more than 3 years ago | (#35458090)

Ah, but you see, this is the beauty of the U.S. Senate. Power is held not by the majority, but by the 51st person to declare whose side he is on. Everything can be sacrificed to the whim of the swing votes. And recently, that 51st has been Republican, or at least more Republican than we would have liked.

And secondly, the democrats are in bed with the IP lobby just as much if not more than republicans. It's hard to tell which is the lesser of two evils if they're both falling down a bottomless pit of evilness. I guess we just have to pick whichever one is falling more slowly...

Re:I know I'll get marked troll again... (1)

TheGratefulNet (143330) | more than 3 years ago | (#35458134)

find which one is all about religion.

then pick the other one.

sigh.

Re:I know I'll get marked troll again... (1)

cobrausn (1915176) | more than 3 years ago | (#35458164)

Grow up. I suppose you think that logic is acceptable because religion is something you hate. What happens when everyone else starts applying the same, substituting 'religion' with anything they hate?

Probably the current system, actually.

Re:I know I'll get marked troll again... (1)

extraordinaire (2010224) | more than 3 years ago | (#35458438)

They pretend as if leftist, statist, anti-capitalist views aren't equally as blinding to their own ability to think as religion is to their adverse party.

Re:I know I'll get marked troll again... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35458818)

You need to pick neither and get everyone else including all the whiners here with you to pick something completely new, because its not the majority of this country picking the presidents, it's always the minority, no matter what side of the aisle they sit on. Less whining and more reformation action!

Re:I know I'll get marked troll again... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35458234)

Have you guys been hiding under a rock for the last couple of decades?

Democrate = sides with "creatives", "artists", etc. so: long and all-encompassing copyrights == good [it doesn't matter if the "artist" is long dead and gone, that the copyright expires when the grandkids of their contemporaries a raising kids of their own]
Republican = sides with business, so for RIAA/MPAA/**AA members' bottom-line long and all-encompassing copyrights == good [there's no Property Tax on Intellectual Property, so you can own billions of property and not pay a penny].

As long as there's no proportional representation, giving other parties a real chance, you can't win.

They haven't (1)

rsilvergun (571051) | more than 3 years ago | (#35458382)

They're completely ham-strung by a corrupt Supreme Court that has, LITERALLY, be bought. Google for Clarence Thomas and bribery. The Supreme court opened the door for unlimited corporate money, and that was that....

Even if that hadn't happened, the Republicans ran the country into the ground for 8 years using TERRIFYING TERRORISTS to get away with anything. It's a bit much to ask for 2 years of weakly supported Democratic rule to fix that. Maybe if you people would stop voting for Republicans. Obama had a lot of great stuff on the table until he lost Congress.

Re:They haven't (2)

cayenne8 (626475) | more than 3 years ago | (#35458592)

Obama had a lot of great stuff on the table until he lost Congress.

You know..I was laughing at all of this...till it dawned on me...you are really and truly serious and believe this, don't you?

:(

I can't honestly think of a single thing that guy has done positive for the country...even when he had majority in BOTH houses...I'm just hoping that he's a one termer...before he can do more damage.

Re:I know I'll get marked troll again... (5, Informative)

trollertron3000 (1940942) | more than 3 years ago | (#35458030)

Do you know much about how DC works? Seriously I lived there my whole life and I'm tied to the US Federal government closely. I think it's hilarious that people like yourself think there's a huge difference between the two parties. Guess the bullshit machines are working.

Re:I know I'll get marked troll again... (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35458478)

Oh wow, someone on Slashdot is saying that the two major parties in the US are the same. How courageous! Here's your guaranteed +5 mod, good sir/madam. Thanks to you, we can now all be miserable together because the world we live in sucks so much, and we're the only ones intelligent enough to recognize it, and even though we have all the answers, nobody listens to us. Ah, if only! But at least we get to feel smugly superior to the average bloke, and that's what it's all about, right?

Re:I know I'll get marked troll again... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35458682)

IIRC it was Faraday, who, when demonstrating electricity to the then British PM, was queried by the PM as to what possible use the invention might have. Mr. Faraday replied, "One day you might tax it." (quote from memory)

As you have stated, you're tied in tight with the U.S. Fed Govt. I presume you've some understanding of basic economics and accounting. Based on my presumption do you see the moves into a 'information' based economy plugged into the service sector as a valid core economy, and, if you do, or, even if you don't, do you see the ACTA stuff under consideration as a bipartisian tax grab. Just a way to create taxable value to float a, in my eyes, fictional economy?

Re:I know I'll get marked troll again... (1)

brucek2 (208676) | more than 3 years ago | (#35458040)

Are you under the belief that ACTA is supported by republicans and opposed by democrats? Can you provide any information to support this?

Unfortunately as far as I can tell the underlying sentiments seem to have mostly bi-partisan support and little if any focused opposition.

Re:I know I'll get marked troll again... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35458042)

Probably because this is a troll post. Just sayin.

Re:I know I'll get marked troll again... (1)

cheekyjohnson (1873388) | more than 3 years ago | (#35458184)

How about not voting for either and instead voting for a third party?

Re:I know I'll get marked troll again... (1)

Marcika (1003625) | more than 3 years ago | (#35458890)

Yup, that worked out real well in 2000, didn't it?

Face it, the political game in the US is rigged to only allow two parties to share power (primaries, fppt voting, yada yada), and the only ones who could change it are the two parties. On the outside chance that one of the major parties should commit electoral suicide, the "third party" seamlessly slips into the place of one of the big ones, and you're no better off.

Re:I know I'll get marked troll again... (1)

cheekyjohnson (1873388) | more than 3 years ago | (#35459120)

It hasn't worked yet. The solution isn't to give up and say "this will never work," however. The solution is to keep trying and to keep pressing the issue and telling others about it.

Because the system is broken (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35459096)

3rd party is not viable for many reasons; largely because the system is rigged by the big two. You can vote 3rd party while some moron votes anti-gay or whatever the current trick is votes for the other side (3rd party is likely against republicans more than democrats; even a right wing one should want the GOP dead because they stand for nothing conservative its purely political tricks while they serve their corporate masters 110% At least the DFL is only 90% corporate sellouts... )

I'd love to vote 3rd party; I'm outside the 1 dimensional false dilemma so neither party is close to me.

I think the best thing to happen to fascism is the conflation with the Nazis so it emotionally loads the term down so no intelligent discussion is allowed - the Nazi link pretty much made the political ideology untouchable to argue about and it continues to grow to the point we now have states trying to appoint corps to take over towns and fire elected officials, privatize water, etc -- we can't call them the Fascists they are because the word is dead for use. Corporatist is about all we can muster.

wake up! politicalcompass.org

What me worry... (1)

thestudio_bob (894258) | more than 3 years ago | (#35457964)

Well, as long as they try to pass this in secret, have no public input, force poor country to participate and kill anyone that gets in their way, then this treaty really shouldn't affect me.

Moral of this story (1)

trollertron3000 (1940942) | more than 3 years ago | (#35457966)

It's important to remember the moral of this story - never try. Good job guys.

Where else will the money come from? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35457980)

The US doesn't make anything anymore. We depend on the export of agricultural goods and licensing intellection property to get any money into the country.

Plus we live in a plutocracy now, and the rich demand this.

Re:Where else will the money come from? (1)

0123456 (636235) | more than 3 years ago | (#35458502)

The US doesn't make anything anymore. We depend on the export of agricultural goods and licensing intellection property to get any money into the country.

But if this should actually pass as a global treaty, no-one would be able to import copyrighted goods from America, so there goes that idea.

I can only imagine they're following the usual tactic of trying to come up with the most insane ideas they could so that when they relax it back to what they originally wanted people will say 'we'd better let them have this because look how bad it could be otherwise'.

Any ideas on how to finally stop this mess? (1)

yuhong (1378501) | more than 3 years ago | (#35457994)

Any ideas on how to finally stop this mess completely? I bet the MBAs who were trained to control didn't help. Nor does "shareholder value". Any idea on how to finally fix all this?

What world do you live in? (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35458200)

There is no "final" fix, and there can never be one. The wealthy and powerful *always* have incentives to exploit the majority for their personal gain, and *always* respond to those incentives with measures like this.

The right response is to forever fight.

DDoSing the system (1)

Pecisk (688001) | more than 3 years ago | (#35458020)

Well, it can be called ar DDoS or carpet bombing...Whatever. It is the same strategy pro-softpatents lobbyists tried several years ago with software patent "harmonization" in ES. They are still trying to push it, but with much less success than before.

What can I say - journalists just should do their work, bring these things to the front and then we can hope that they will back off.

Thanks to everyone - FSF and EFF especially - who tries to stop these efforts.

Enforcing is suicide (1)

ThunderBird89 (1293256) | more than 3 years ago | (#35458044)

[quote]blocking people from buying copyrighted goods in other countries and taking them home[\quote]

And just how are they planning to enforce this? I have a goddamn right to buy anything where I want it. If this is enacted, international commerce will fall apart, thanks to the US. A nation, I might add, that already imports more than it exports (1.280 trillion in exports VS 1.948 trillion in imports), and 30.4% of it is in capital goods, such as computers and telecomm equipment, from which areas we get most of our patent infringement suits. One can look at imports as buying abroad, taking home, and selling it again, so this bill would effectively block at the very least 30% of all imports.

Re:Enforcing is suicide (2)

White Flame (1074973) | more than 3 years ago | (#35458190)

It doesn't have to be enforced to be "valuable" to the government or media companies. All this means is that everybody, everywhere, even more so if this passes, is always committing a crime, and therefore the .gov and private business have the right to all your info and can smash down on any individual they please, even/especially for unrelated "crimes".

Re:Enforcing is suicide (1)

cdrguru (88047) | more than 3 years ago | (#35458774)

Well, most other countries have very strict laws about importation of goods. If you travel from France to New York City and buy a fake Louis Vutton purse there it may be confiscated when you re-enter France. Certainly if you were a merchant in France and tried to import 1000 fake Louis Vutton purses to sell in France you would be blocked from doing so.

Let's say you want to import some cheap, unlicensed DVD players into Holland (home of Philips, licensor of DVD players). Good luck with that - Holland has port controls and does block unlicensed merchandise.

The US has no such importation policy. If you want to import poisonous cat food you can do it. Fake purses? Fine. Lead painted toys for children? Sure. Sometimes they stop pirated movies and software but considering there is something like 1 person to monitor 100 ships with thousands of container loads each it is not exactly a given that anything will be blocked.

By the way, in most countries you do not have the right to buy anything and bring it home. Try, just try bringing an apple into Australia. In the US if you buy a bucket of rancid, rotting chicken in Mexico you will have no problems bringing it into the US complete with the flies. Small difference there. Could you sell that bucket of rotting chicken to some homeless dude in Texas? Absolutely. There are no controls in the US.

Unlicensed DVD players? In the US anything selling for under $50 is certainly going to be unlicensed because the manufacturer pays $5 per player in license fees. So you don't really believe that the $30 DVD player that WalMart is making $15 on only cost the manufacturer $10 to make and is paying $5 in license fees? Hardly. Unlike the rest of the planet, the US has no controls whatsoever over its ports.

In most countries they at least protect their home-grown industries, like Louis Vutton in France and Philips in Holland. Not so in the US. If you build a business out of making computer peripherials you better make sure the firmware never gets out and it is a critical piece of it - because the US will smile happily while your business is defeated by cloners that will reproduce your hardware and sell it as yours right out from under you. Why do you think there are no US peripherial companies anymore? How hard do you think it is to buy a motherboard branded as "Intal" with a sticker on it that says "Intal Inside"? Really not that hard. Bet it would be pretty hard to buy an ASVS motherboard in Taiwan where the brand looked a lot like ASUS.

Why do you think people periodically get concerned about what could be brought into the US through its "open ports"? Right now, nobody is really worried and really wants cheap stuff no matter where and how it comes in. Did you notice all the controls that were put in place after the poison cat food came in? No, nothing changed. China was encouraged to not ship bad stuff to the US anymore but nothing, absolutely nothing was done to prevent more of the same from coming in.
Just remember, there is virtually no industry that is safe in this environment except maybe nursing. Anything that involves making something can be defeated because it can be made cheaper and with less quality overseas - and then marked as the original item to fool people and put the "original" manufacturer out of business.

I can't agree more with closing down US ports to cloned merchandise of one form or another. If they get a law through that also at the same time makes it tougher to walk across the border with Mexico with cloned stuff, well, that's too bad. It isn't like that is where the problem is.

Protectionism (3, Informative)

HermMunster (972336) | more than 3 years ago | (#35458054)

No true free economy allows laws that protect certain markets and business models. Obama is up to his ears in jobs loss. As a consequence these MPAA/RIAA lobbyists go to him claiming that they are loosing billions and millions of jobs in an industry that "can't" be off-shored--nothing like American movies and music.

What's wrong is that he thinks that these efforts will result in recovery of lost jobs and income. In reality, when the economy recovers, if it ever does, these industries (with their protected and outdated business models) will be in control beyond what was intended, and it will have set a precedent for other industries to try the same thing, thus leaving America, and the world, with massive abusive businesses controlling ever more of Congress.

Re:Protectionism (1)

cdrguru (88047) | more than 3 years ago | (#35458922)

No economy on the planet is as open as the US is to cheap cloned merchandise marketed as the original expensive stuff. And if you buy the fakes and have a problem you will likely as not complain to the original manufacturer - who, in their desire to have happy customers in the future just might fix things for you.

This isn't about protecting a market but protecting companies that are based in the US from extremely unfair competition from China and other East Asian countries with very low wages. Sure it is cheaper to make just about everything there and if you ship enough of it to the US it is will undercut anything made in the US. So the answer is to put all US manufacturers out of business and only buy from China? I'm not sure that leads to anything useful.

Protecting music and movies from pirates and the mass production factories outside the US is probably a losing game because it is all available to the Internet-savvy today for free. I don't know anyone that actually pays for music anymore - why would they? Movies are a little tougher, but the market is pretty much on its way to destruction no matter what and border controls aren't going to make a difference.

Pretty much every Western country protects their own industries - except the US. Try importing 1000 unlicensed DVD players into Holland - they will be stopped at the port and turned away. In the US they will be on store shelves the next week. Try importing a fake Louis Vutton purse into France or some fake Italian shoes into Italy - you will be blocked at the port. Bringing one in for personal use probably isn't going to cause much of a stir but in the US today it doesn't matter if it is one or 1000, and it doesn't matter what company is being shredded because of the cloners.

I guess the point is to remove the last vestiges of manufacturing from the US. Want to start a company? Maybe you should first move to Thailand because with enough bribes anything is possible there.

while making lawyers rich (2)

nurb432 (527695) | more than 3 years ago | (#35458142)

When you run the world, you craft everything to support your wealth.

Re:while making lawyers rich (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35458244)

And you wonder why health-care in this nation is bankrupt. It's not the skill of the doctors or lack of technology. It's our fucking corrupt and bloated legal system. We can be wrapped in layers of foam to protect us. But what good does it do if we can't even walk in freedom because of it? We're suffocating here. ARE YOU LISTING TO US?!!! CAN YOU HEAR US!!! You soon shall.

Brasil, Russia, China doesnt give two shits (2)

unity100 (970058) | more than 3 years ago | (#35458166)

While india doesnt join the talks. europe is against 75% of the core of the proposed crap. this kinda takes away approx ~5 billion population of the planet.

this entire piece of shit, is something the rich in usa is trying to push over entire world for their own benefit.

yet noone cares. yet, they still come yelping louder, after they have been openly refused.

Re:Brasil, Russia, China doesnt give two shits (1)

spyfrog (552673) | more than 3 years ago | (#35458434)

The people in Europe is against it but I can promise you that the so called "leaders" in EU will be in favor off this new ACTA.

worse? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35458208)

The only way it could get any worse would be if it were enacted in law

If only it were that simple.

From this Free Library article [thefreelibrary.com] :

[The WTO appellate court] is probably the most powerful juridical system that exists at the international level today for any subject matter as broad and as encompassing as that under the control of the WTO. That is because it is mandatory under international law. First, it is mandatory to use the dispute settlement process, and second, it is virtually automatic that the report of the dispute settlement process becomes binding international law

(apt captcha: iceberg)

Stop trying to spread your s*t (5, Insightful)

spyfrog (552673) | more than 3 years ago | (#35458258)

Could you Americans please stop trying to force us other in the world to accept your fascist corporations wishes?
Please continue to live in your corporate govern country that you believe is the worlds greatest democracy but STOP trying to force us other to obey your corporate overlords.

Thanks.

Re:Stop trying to spread your s*t (5, Funny)

misexistentialist (1537887) | more than 3 years ago | (#35458804)

Haven't you bought most of our corporations by now?

Re:Stop trying to spread your s*t (1)

dcollins (135727) | more than 3 years ago | (#35458860)

Effective resistance never comes from within the empire.

Re:Stop trying to spread your s*t (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35458956)

I believe we have stronger fair use rights over here against copyright infringement. Also, we aren't the crazy ones who take money from the purchase of CD-ROMs and give it to the music industry. Why the hell do I need to pay the music industry money to keep a back up or burn shit that has nothing to do with music? Also, we have strong First Amendment rights.

Finally, we don't force anything on you. If you don't like it, then don't agree. It isn't our fault that your politicians and governments are a bunch of sniveling cowards.

Can we get someone else other than Mike Masnick? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35458536)

As soon as I saw the link was "Techdirt", I rolled my eyes because I knew it was going to be Mike Masnick. I don't trust Mike Masnick to give anybody the real story. Could we please get someone competent to summarize these documents? (And, no, Torrent Freak isn't competent either.) I don't trust these guys anymore than I'd trust Glenn Beck to give me the news.

This Post Is Overblown FUD (1, Troll)

tony1343 (910042) | more than 3 years ago | (#35458882)

Sorry for the slightly rude subject, but hopefully that got your attention.

How this agreement is worded, it would not be self-executing. If I'm correct, that would mean this would not be binding federal law even after passed. For that to happen, Congress would have to then enact implementing legislation. This is merely an agreement between nations on what they are going to or should do.

Further, I don't understand all the FUD about the patent provisions. This wouldn't change anything. As far as I can tell, the U.S. already does all of this.

Also, take a look at the America Invents Act which just passed the Senate. That would put U.S. patent law more in line (but not completely) with the rest of the world. It will open up more prior art to invalidate patents. It also has a procedure to re-review crappy business method patents. Lots of stuff that you guys should like. Sure, I'd like to see it go further to stop the patent trolls and make litigation cheaper, but at least it's something.

So Calm Down. You guys don't like patents. We get it; that doesn't mean you have to misrepresent the facts. I also note that for all the companies out there trying to get crappy software patents, there are a whole bunch trying to invalidate them. (Disclosure - part of my job is trying to invalidate crappy software patents. I'm no big fan of them, but that doesn't mean I need to lose grasp of reality.)

I think the politicians have just run out of ideas (1)

TheNarrator (200498) | more than 3 years ago | (#35458996)

Ever notice how a politician will hardly ever take a specific stand on any issue and if they do they'll never follow through (e.g Obama)? It's like politicians don't want to lead anymore and they just let their handlers and lobbyists put laws in front of them to sign and they do it because they don't really give a crap and they've completely run out of ideas. If you get a guy like Ron Paul who actually has ideas and doesn't just talk in meaningless genralities, all you see is non-stop ridicule.

Re:I think the politicians have just run out of id (2)

triffid_98 (899609) | more than 3 years ago | (#35459088)

Any politician not vetted by the party majority faces at best non-stop ridicule, and generally just gets no mention whatsoever in the news media.

Ross Perot had some good ideas too. He was kind of a nutjob, but at least he recognized we couldn't keep borrowing money from China forever...
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