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No Contactless Payment System In Next iPhone

timothy posted more than 3 years ago | from the we-want-you-to-touch dept.

Cellphones 239

RedEaredSlider writes "Citing fears over a lack of an industry standard, Apple has ditched plans to include near field communication technology in its next iPhone, The Independent reports. The technology, which allows users to make payments simply by waving their devices over special readers, is widely believed to be the next major step in both cell phone and payment technologies. Apple's decision to avoid it is a significant blow to its adoption."

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239 comments

it would make it too wide! (4, Funny)

master_kaos (1027308) | more than 3 years ago | (#35498902)

Can't have something in the device that would add 1 mm to the thickness!

Re:it would make it too wide! (4, Insightful)

cayenne8 (626475) | more than 3 years ago | (#35499614)

I say thank God for this!!

I seriously don't want something in my phone that hooks in any way into a payment system whether it digs directly into my checking account..or even a special one. Just a great way to get charged for money by a thief. I prefer to just carry cash most of the time.....I don't even like the ATM cards that are also debit cards, and have had to tell the bank I don't want one....only an ATM card, and they sent them to me...

Aside from the privacy and security problems I have with it..do I REALLY need a new, overly convenient way to spend more fucking money?

Hell...I'm trying to save for a house and retirement some day....I don't need more temptations to spend easy cash.

Re:it would make it too wide! (2, Insightful)

dudpixel (1429789) | more than 3 years ago | (#35499736)

yeah i agree, features are BAD.

we shouldn't have features, they just make the phone slower, and hurt my privacy and blah blah blah.

We should only have the features we need, you know, the ones Apple invented. They know what we need...

If it wasn't invented by Apple then its bad.

Give the anti-anti auto-reflex a rest. (0, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35499820)

You apparently don't understand the security problems.

They've been doing contactless train passes in Japan for a couple of years now, and, even with that, the security is ridiculous. In Japan, no less.

The train companies had to abandon one kind of contactless card because they are so easy to crack. They're going to have to abandon another, which is going to cost them a huge amount of money re-tooling gates.

Re:Give the anti-anti auto-reflex a rest. (3, Insightful)

dudpixel (1429789) | more than 3 years ago | (#35499990)

but surely we can, you know, turn it off when not in use. or have it manually activated at time of purchase.

and Apple aren't avoiding it on those grounds, they are avoiding it because they want to do their own incompatible system that they can profit from.

time for you to give the if-its-not-apple-i-dont-like-it reflex a rest sir.

Re:it would make it too wide! (4, Insightful)

currently_awake (1248758) | more than 3 years ago | (#35500094)

If you lose your wallet the cash is gone. If you lose your phone the thief can run up thousands of dollars in PHONE charges. If you lose your contactless payment device: the thief can spend till your daily limit, or until the police track him down by the built in gps, or until you remotely disable the device. Also there is no reason your phone couldn't have a passcode required to spend money or to spend over a transaction/daily limit. Given the choice the lost contactless payment device might very well be the cheaper theft.

Extra Extra! (4, Funny)

WrongSizeGlass (838941) | more than 3 years ago | (#35498906)

Extra Extra! Apple may or may not be including something that has been previously rumored in their next iPhone! Won't somebody think of the children??

Re:Extra Extra! (1)

syousef (465911) | more than 3 years ago | (#35499590)

Extra Extra! Apple may or may not be including something that has been previously rumored in their next iPhone! Won't somebody think of the children??

I was so looking forward to the jet fighter that was rumoured to be part of the next release. But it seems the global financial crisis has left Apple unable to include a $200 million jet plane with a $600 phone. As a result I'm looking at purchasing Android.

Re:Extra Extra! (1)

MobileTatsu-NJG (946591) | more than 3 years ago | (#35499758)

Extra Extra! Apple may or may not be including something that has been previously rumored in their next iPhone! Won't somebody think of the children??

EXTRA! EXTRA! Whiners bitch about lucrative Apple stories on Slashdot, still clueless about cause and effect!

Eat It, Patent Holders (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35498908)

We patented centuries old technology *on a really small computer* so we deserve billions!

I don't buy it (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35498940)

Anyone who call recall the past 15 years knows that logic does not make any sense

Most Likely Reason (4, Insightful)

Freaky Spook (811861) | more than 3 years ago | (#35498960)

Apple hasn't figured a away to get fee's from sellers and customers yet.

Re:Most Likely Reason (0)

neoform (551705) | more than 3 years ago | (#35499224)

or maybe it's exactly as the article says and they don't feel like being in the middle of a format war...?

Re:Most Likely Reason (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35499374)

or maybe it's exactly as the article says and they don't feel like being in the middle of a format war...?

Right now, Apple can dictate any format they want. They changed the music business. Do you think something as pathetic as a payment system would stop them?

Re:Most Likely Reason (2)

GNUALMAFUERTE (697061) | more than 3 years ago | (#35499388)

Apple is the main patent holder in the MPEGLA group, and has been trolling webm and theora directly. I believe they love standards wars.

Re:Most Likely Reason (5, Informative)

Goaway (82658) | more than 3 years ago | (#35499528)

Apple is the main patent holder in the MPEGLA group

Wow, that's the most hilarious thing I've read all day.

They hold ONE patent in the h.264 pool. Out of several hundred.

Yup, that's a "main patent holder" all right.

Re:Most Likely Reason (1)

mkiwi (585287) | more than 3 years ago | (#35499852)

I'm surprised by just how much certain people can be jaded these days. It's like back in the 90's and early 00's when Mac users were spouting all sorts of negative disinformation about MS.
Now, certain demographics see an Apple story and they want blood. I'm convinced the Twilight Saga is to blame.

Re:Most Likely Reason (0)

Daniel Phillips (238627) | more than 3 years ago | (#35499584)

or maybe it's exactly as the article says and they don't feel like being in the middle of a format war...?

That is rather hard to believe. Apple has traditionally participated in format wars with wild abandon. HTML 5 video anyone?

This much is true: Apple's credibility is falling through the basement, it is getting hard to take anything they say at face value.

Re:Most Likely Reason (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35499646)

Yeah right. The more likely scenario is that Apple has its own designs on financial transactions, is probably trying to entrench itself in the economy. How many Applebux you wanna bet?

Re:Most Likely Reason (3, Insightful)

dudpixel (1429789) | more than 3 years ago | (#35499816)

From the article: "Citing fears over a lack of an industry standard, "

From wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near_field_communication#Standards [wikipedia.org]

so these claims turn out to be bogus...who knew? could it be that Apple doesn't like it because Apple doesn't control it?
Also, its an open standard...oh noes.

But Apple didn't leave us guessing as to their real motive:
From the article: "But Apple isn't completely abandoning the idea of mobile payments. Instead, the company plans to implement its own contactless payment technology"

and to finish off (and prove the GP correct):
From the article: "the company's answer to mobile payments will run through its iTunes store. This would likely allow the company to reap a portion of transactions, as is the case for many products purchases through iTunes."

The "leopard" never changes its spots.

Re:Most Likely Reason (1)

Firehed (942385) | more than 3 years ago | (#35499338)

That's the easiest piece. Apple becomes a merchant processor (actually, something closer to the issuing bank at their scale) and takes a cut out of the payment. Hell, they'd practically be a new payment network. They're already effectively giving you a tiny line of credit with the way iTunes works, simply for the sake of aggregating payments to minimize their own fees. Why not go all the way with it?

Of course, they'd then have to deal with a truly absurd number of payments-related regulations, which I'll tell you from firsthand experience is something best avoided if you can help it. That's a whole lot of not fun.

Re:Most Likely Reason (1)

cayenne8 (626475) | more than 3 years ago | (#35499722)

Of course, they'd then have to deal with a truly absurd number of payments-related regulations, which I'll tell you from firsthand experience is something best avoided if you can help it. That's a whole lot of not fun.

I'd guess they could set themselves up in a manner similar to how PayPal operates...and not have to mess with 'bank' regulations....?

Seems to work well for PP so far...

Re:Most Likely Reason (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35500040)

      Yes, but true to form... they are trying to figure out a way to get 30%.

Yes, this will harm iPhone adoption (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35498994)

I look forward to paying for my beer and condoms with my phone while iPhone users take it up the ass from their credit card companies.

What's in your asshole? Steve Jobs' throbbing cock.

Re:Yes, this will harm iPhone adoption (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35499424)

What's in my asshole you ask?

Your mothers throbbing cock. and her balls are slapping my balls! Oh shit!! Balls are touching!

Has slashdot degenerated (further) (5, Insightful)

line-bundle (235965) | more than 3 years ago | (#35499000)

Has this become the official iPhone gossip site?

Every too often an article like this comes which has no substance. It's not news for nerds, it doesn't matter.

Re:Has slashdot degenerated (further) (2, Informative)

MBCook (132727) | more than 3 years ago | (#35499144)

I think that's a version of the problem. I don't see much in it for Apple. In the US contactless payments are not very common. There are a few systems (SpeedPay?) but I've never seen anyone use them. Carrying around a credit card is not exactly a hardship. The place where I think it would make the most sense is vending machines.

I know contactless stuff is much more common in Japan and Europe. Do they use the same system, or would Apple have to build multiple versions? I do think that if they wanted to Apple could probably pick the winning standard in the US (if there are multiple contenders, I honestly don't know).

I think it would be smarter to make a full near field communication system so that not only could you pay, but it could read tags embedded in things (ads, products, etc). Wouldn't it be nice to be able to "swipe" your phone with something (say your printer) to be able to easily pull up ink/toner options, the manual, support, etc? Why limit yourself to just paying for things?

Either way, I'm not terribly surprised by this. No one else has it (in the US), so it's not like it's costing them anything (here).

Re:Has slashdot degenerated (further) (1)

HairyNevus (992803) | more than 3 years ago | (#35499240)

Yeah, my coffee shop has one of these. We're located in a building owned by Oracle (the hardware/software dev company) so there's no shortage of nerds who like new technology stuff. No one uses our SpeedPay. I mean a few people have, but every time their payment has gone through I've scratched my head and wondered what went wrong, (seeing that their payment suddenly went through without me swiping a card) it's that rare.

With that said, we have customers that have upgraded through multiple iPhones, and their (Apple) adoption of this would surely lead to a lot more usage of this technology. Why don't they take the Google approach and buy out SpeedPay, then use implementations on all their products. That way, by virtue of Apple products being universally acceptable for SpeedPay, SpeedPay becomes highly implemented and then other hardware needs to pay Apple to implement SpeedPay on their device (step 3: ????) leading to profit for Apple in the long run?

Re:Has slashdot degenerated (further) (1)

AK Marc (707885) | more than 3 years ago | (#35499436)

Why should they? They get 30% margins on apps. For processing, they'd get 1% or so. 1% margin probably doesn't excite them, even though the absolute numbers associated with 1% of every transaction is huge.

In Canada.. (1)

iONiUM (530420) | more than 3 years ago | (#35499714)

I don't know about the states, but Canada has wide adoption of contact-less credit cards*. In almost all the gas stations in my area, and many stores, I can simply hold up my wallet with my credit card in it to pay for things. No swiping necessary. This is a huge convenience IMO. I realize you may say "but how much work is it really to take the card out of your wallet, and swipe it?" Physically it's not a lot of extra effort, but the card readers often don't work the first time, and when you're freezing your ass off trying to put gas in the car, those extra seconds saved really help. And, not having to remove the card is also a plus.

Anyways, I think all of these future conveniences are just that anyways - small upgrades that we don't "need", but I guess we really have run out of things to innovate, so there it is.

*note - visa and mastercard mailed out cards with a chip and contact-less support about a year and a half ago, while this shift was occurring. At first I was upset, because having to remember another PIN for a credit card was annoying, but the lack of swipe made me happy.

Re:In Canada.. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35499902)

I realize you may say "but how much work is it really to take the card out of your wallet, and swipe it?" Physically it's not a lot of extra effort, but the card readers often don't work the first time, and when you're freezing your ass off trying to put gas in the car, those extra seconds saved really help.

It's funny you say that. I find that swiping a magnetic strip is really reliable and contactless cards really unreliable. I mean, the contactless cards work, after I wiggle my wallet for a minute.

And, not having to remove the card is also a plus.

I'd rather have a card in my hand than a wallet while doing the "accept my card you damn machine" gestures. Because, well, I don't want someone seeing my wallet and wanting to steal it... but the worst case of someone stealing my credit card is pretty minor. Also, don't you have an RFID shield wallet? Why would you want to allow anyone to scan your card?

It seems to me... (1)

orphiuchus (1146483) | more than 3 years ago | (#35499218)

That the biggest indicator of slashdot's downfall is that every single article posted is immediately met by a claim that the inclusion of said article indicates the site's downfall.

Re:It seems to me... (1)

Guy Harris (3803) | more than 3 years ago | (#35499364)

That the biggest indicator of slashdot's downfall is that every single article posted is immediately met by a claim that the inclusion of said article indicates the site's downfall.

Unfortunately, the old Slashdot drinking game at http://people.cs.uchicago.edu/~neilk/drinking.txt [uchicago.edu] appears to be gone, but perhaps it needs to be updated anyway. "Somebody posts a comment complaining about how Slashdot is going downhill and this story is an example" is probably a good one for the game; perhaps "I know I'm going to be modded down, but..." also belongs on the list, with an additional one for "Somebody says 'I know I'm going to be modded down, but...' and gets modded up".

Re:It seems to me... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35500244)

Drinking games are for teenagers. Probably most slashdotters are teenagers, but that's beside the point.

Re:Has slashdot degenerated (further) (3, Insightful)

ModernGeek (601932) | more than 3 years ago | (#35499272)

Slashdot has been the official Apple gossip site ever since they announced Mac OS X.

hardly (3, Insightful)

Tumbleweed (3706) | more than 3 years ago | (#35499030)

Apple's decision to avoid it is a significant opportunity for Android phones. Apple is learning the wrong lessons from Microsoft.

Re:hardly (1)

Nerdfest (867930) | more than 3 years ago | (#35499266)

Lack of an industry standard? Look at the iDevice connector ... they seem to care little about standards when it's inconvenient. If Apple and Google both implemented the same NFC implementation it becomes the defacto standard. The way standards bodies are going (slow or corrupt) it's really the only way to get anything done these days anyway.

Re:hardly (1)

Daniel Phillips (238627) | more than 3 years ago | (#35499616)

If Apple and Google both implemented the same NFC implementation it becomes the defacto standard.

Or if Google just does it alone. Apple would appear to be making a serious blunder if the report is true.

Re:hardly (1)

Charliemopps (1157495) | more than 3 years ago | (#35499520)

You are young my friend... all these lessons were learned BY Microsoft FROM Apple. Apple already screwed the pooch doing this same sort of stuff in the 80s. The iPod/iPhone have given them a second chance and they're doing it all over again.

Re:hardly (1)

Daniel Phillips (238627) | more than 3 years ago | (#35499606)

Apple's decision to avoid it is a significant opportunity for Android phones. Apple is learning the wrong lessons from Microsoft.

From my point of view they are the right lessons because it is about time for Apple to decline in prominence before they manage to do some serious damage.

Re:hardly (0)

dudpixel (1429789) | more than 3 years ago | (#35499870)

the damage they are doing is all to their own brand name. If you behave like a niche, then pretty soon you will become one. Apple have remained a niche in the PC market, after being initially popular. We're just seeing the repeat now, because they haven't changed their tactics, and the world is now catching on to their tricks.

Re:hardly (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35499802)

Why would I want my cellphone to be able to be used as a method of payment? A credit card is already accepted practically everywhere, is waterproof, thinner and flexible. I've never had my cellphone but not had a credit card. I can replace a credit card at no cost to me. I mean, I really cannot see an advantage.

Also, why would I want a form of payment that didn't require contact? I like knowing who is collecting my payment information. With wireless payment... well, I mean, anyone can evesdrop.

Disappointment (1)

Kensai7 (1005287) | more than 3 years ago | (#35499032)

Great disappointment. I was really hoping Apple would jump start the NFC revolution with the iPhone 5. What's the problem in not having an industry standard?! They would have CREATED one!

if true, bad move (1)

hax4bux (209237) | more than 3 years ago | (#35499034)

Many mobile payment vendors were (are) holding their breath for NFC on Apple devices.

There is already the Galaxy, RIM has promised NFC. Apple would really push this over the top.

I am really tired of carrying various cards for mass transit, etc. and I would love to consolidate these w/my phone.

Re:if true, bad move (1)

DJRumpy (1345787) | more than 3 years ago | (#35499118)

Without a standard in place, I can't say I blame them. If Apple backs a technology that may change entirely over the course of a year, which in turn is based on hardware in the phones themselves, I can see why they are hesitant. It seems backwards that they wouldn't establish a standard first, and then go about putting the specs into their handsets.

Why does it seem like they are going about this a bit backward? Not Apple in general, but the industry in general. Typically if there is a need for a standard, a board is established and they draft out a spec. Why hasn't this happened yet?

Re:if true, bad move (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35499182)

Not Apple in general, but the industry in general. Typically if there is a need for a standard, a board is established and they draft out a spec. Why hasn't this happened yet?

Exactly. It's not Apple's job to drive this particular bus. It needs to be a standard that's driven by consensus of all major stakeholders, not one company like Apple or Microsoft or Google who will inevitably drag in issues that nobody else likes.

if true, goodmove (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35499916)

because all the standards leak like your old crock pot.

Contactless contact is a serious security problem when it's used for money or anything else important, although I suppose a cell phone processor would have enough oomph to get closer to secure than the contactless credit cards.

Which is another piece of the problem, all the current non-standards are hobbled by the power/speed requirements of a battery-less SOC you can squeeze into a credit card. (Which is why the current lack of standards is actually a good thing.)

The tech just isn't there yet, no matter what google and others may be doing. I'm personally wishing that the members of the industry would recognize that the tech will never be adequate and just give it up, but there is a possibility, if they do it right and use the higher power available in a cell phone, that the result could be significantly better than a credit card. (Still too leaky, but an improvement, as it were.

Folks love it (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35499038)

My son works for a bank. They gave him a test phone that he could swipe over appropriate card readers just like some credit cards. When people saw it they said "Where can I get a phone like that?" Definiately a market out there.

Who cares? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35499044)

Really. Who cares?

iTunes (1)

ashvagan (885082) | more than 3 years ago | (#35499062)

You may need to connect to App Store or iTunes for NFC to work, as that is the only way Apple can become the middle man and milk money from both sides. Does anyone know how secure NFC is over the air against third person snooping around?

Re:iTunes (1)

Daniel Phillips (238627) | more than 3 years ago | (#35499634)

Does anyone know how secure NFC is over the air against third person snooping around?

Easy enough. Don't get a phone from a company you don't trust.

Apple may not be as relevant as you think... (2)

bogaboga (793279) | more than 3 years ago | (#35499068)

Whereas I applaud Apple's continued success in the mobile arena, I doubt that its 'refusal' to implement NFC is that major a blow. You see, the tech world has learned to move on with or without Apple.

But do not be surprised is Apple is continuously testing and improving this 'rejected' tech to later 'implement'.

Do you think folks at Samsung, HTC and the rest are that sleepless over Apple's decision? I doubt.

Prediction (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35499086)

Prediction: if there's no accepted standard within a year, Apple will create one. Further prediction: Slashdotters will universally hate it. The remaining 99.999% of the world will love it.

Re:Prediction (4, Informative)

c0lo (1497653) | more than 3 years ago | (#35499396)

Prediction: if there's no accepted standard within a year, Apple will create one. Further prediction: Slashdotters will universally hate it. The remaining 99.999% of the world will love it.

Ah, what an relief for ATM-skimmers: no contact required, ISO standard doesn't yet specify [wikipedia.org] any protection against man-in-the-middle. Even if it would be so, the communication is small in size and one can easily jam the receiver and force the attempt of the same transaction enough numbers of time to have a good base for a cryptographic attack... especially since part of the encrypted information is known (the total of the docket).

Are you nuts (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35499120)

I don't want it in the phones......its bad enough being on the credit cards!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kCd3YLAn8Kw

Re:Are you nuts (1)

russotto (537200) | more than 3 years ago | (#35499742)

I don't want it in the phones......its bad enough being on the credit cards!

It's more secure in the phone, where you can turn it off.

Not invented here? (2)

markdavis (642305) | more than 3 years ago | (#35499130)

Google doesn't seem to be having problems with the concept and is pushing it (with manufacturers' buy-in) into current Android phones now. Perhaps Apple is having the "not invented here" syndrome??

From the article: "But Apple isn't completely abandoning the idea of mobile payments. Instead, the company plans to implement its own contactless payment technology,"

Oh! So Apple just wants to find another revenue stream from their own proprietary "solution"..... got it! It has nothing to do with "industry standards", it has to do with trying to create and force a "standard".

Re:Not invented here? (1)

clang_jangle (975789) | more than 3 years ago | (#35499222)

Oh! So Apple just wants to find another revenue stream from their own proprietary "solution"..... got it! It has nothing to do with "industry standards", it has to do with trying to create and force a "standard".

Another one wakes up (this has only been going on since the the dawn of computers). So now for your next step think about the fact that what you've just described is pretty much the whole point of most proprietary systems...

Re:Not invented here? (1)

markdavis (642305) | more than 3 years ago | (#35499294)

Oh, I have been awake for a long time. I was pointing out the "irony" in the summary/article wording- as if Apple rejected it because of lack of "standards", which is ludicrous.

I just still can't believe it is 2011 and we STILL can't get PIN codes attached to credit cards! I hope this "contactless" type concept requires their use (and can't be stored on the device, obviously)...

Re:Not invented here? (1)

Cimexus (1355033) | more than 3 years ago | (#35499906)

Wait what? My credit card has had a PIN since the dawn of time (well, at least since I turned 18 and got my first credit card, around a decade ago...)

Re:Not invented here? (1)

markdavis (642305) | more than 3 years ago | (#35500020)

Maybe a PIN number for cash withdrawals at an ATM machine, but not a PIN number that is required for purchase payments....

Without a purchasing PIN, anyone can take your card (or often just the number) and buy things without hardly any challenge at all.

Re:Not invented here? (1)

Cimexus (1355033) | more than 3 years ago | (#35500060)

OK so maybe not a decade, but I've had a PIN for use at the point of sale for purchases (i.e. swipe and type PIN, rather than swipe and sign) since at least 2005 (I know this for a fact as I was definitely using a chip-and-PIN card while living in London, and 2005 was my last year there). I've since moved elsewhere but all credit cards I've had since then have had one of those little chips in it and are capable of doing PIN-authenticated purchases.

Admittedly though, in many countries, it's not mandatory to use it (you can ~choose~ whether to PIN or sign), which sorta defeats the point ;) As you say, if you can get the physical card, you can use it fraudulently (even if it has a PIN) if signing is still an option and you can convincingly forge the signature. I tend to use the PIN myself, simply because it's quicker than signing.

Re:Not invented here? (1)

markdavis (642305) | more than 3 years ago | (#35500108)

In the USA, I have never seen a PIN used with a credit card (and I have been using them quite a bit longer than you ;) ). Check/Debit card yes, credit card no. The most I have seen used was to require you to key in your zip code; which is not much security.

And yes, if you can choose not to use it, of course nobody will- because it is not their money that is at risk... it becomes a "society" problem and we all end up paying for theft with higher prices and fees.

Re:Not invented here? (1)

Lumpy (12016) | more than 3 years ago | (#35499274)

the new credit card terminals will have a 30 pin connector, you dock your phone and make your transaction. worries about vandalism of the 30 pin connector on vending machines are dismissed by Steve jobs, "that connector is indestructible! we have never had a failure of one!"

Re:Not invented here? (1)

c0lo (1497653) | more than 3 years ago | (#35499308)

worries about vandalism of the 30 pin connector on vending machines are dismissed by Steve jobs, "that connector is indestructible! we have never had a failure of one!"

And if it doesn't function, it is the users fault: they are griping the phone the wrong way.

Re:Not invented here? (1)

markdavis (642305) | more than 3 years ago | (#35499348)

>"the new credit card terminals will have a 30 pin connector"

OMG!!! Too funny! I nearly fell out of my chair :)

+100 funny

Re:Not invented here? (1)

Daniel Phillips (238627) | more than 3 years ago | (#35499656)

Perhaps Apple is having the "not invented here" syndrome??

More probably the "can't be the troll under the bridge owning the means of passage" syndrome.

No way (3, Insightful)

93 Escort Wagon (326346) | more than 3 years ago | (#35499150)

Right now I'm very resistant to any sort of NFC device - too many "security" decisions seem to be driven by vendors who keep their heads intentionally planted in the sand. These folks seem to think we live in a world where the bad guys would never overpower a remote reader, where gathered data is then only transmitted over secure wireless networks, and where design decisions never trump best security practices.

And no - I don't have any RFID-enabled credit cards.

Easily Done Yourself (1)

PrimaryConsult (1546585) | more than 3 years ago | (#35499160)

1. Get card with PayPass (or equivalent)
2. Duct tape to iPhone
3. Profit

Actually, I just tried it out and mine fits inside the outer shell of my (non-apple) smartphone, looking at it you'd never know it was there...

Re:Easily Done Yourself (1)

Lumpy (12016) | more than 3 years ago | (#35499256)

No it's not the same. I had a nokia in 2004 that did this and you could see the balance, the transaction amount, and control if it was on or not.

Re:Easily Done Yourself (1)

c0lo (1497653) | more than 3 years ago | (#35499290)

No it's not the same. I had a nokia in 2004 that did this and you could see the balance, the transaction amount, and control if it was on or not.

;) Hey, I can't believe there isn't an app for that! ;)

Don't want to work with Google (2, Insightful)

hawguy (1600213) | more than 3 years ago | (#35499178)

And by "Citing fears over a lack of an industry standard", they mean that they don't want to follow Google's lead with their NFC enabled phone, so instead they are working secretely with Nokia to come out with a competing standard, screwing over consumers who just want something that works -- much like the DVD-RAM/Blu-Ray debacle where no one could decide on a standard so early adopters had to pick one and hope they picked the industry leader.

But isn't this a good thing? (2)

Bloopie (991306) | more than 3 years ago | (#35499180)

All I see is people complaining about this. But isn't this a good thing? Didn't anyone read the first few words in the summary, "Citing fears over a lack of an industry standard"?

One of the biggest things people complain about with Microsoft (and other companies as well, including even Apple sometimes) is that they invent their own "standards" (or implement standards in ways that aren't in fact standard) and ruin the possibility of interoperability with products from other companies. That generates no end of woe. Isn't it the geek's dream to have IT companies adhere to industry standards?

And here a company is actually paying attention to industry standards! But this is Apple. Slashdotters are going to complain. If they did the exact opposite and invented their own thing, Slashdotters would complain as well.

Re:But isn't this a good thing? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35499450)

Thanks for making my point. Excellent point. Everyone is so quick to attack Apple they don't stop to consider what they are attacking them for. What if they rolled out a half assed system that was found to be insecure or worse for the Android fans a system that was dramatically different than Android only to find vendors embracing Apple's system? Isn't it better for them to wait until there are real standards which would give everyone a shot at the market? I'm not saying they are being generous they are being cautious and everyone will likely benefit from their caution.

Re:But isn't this a good thing? (1)

Daniel Phillips (238627) | more than 3 years ago | (#35499680)

Everyone is so quick to attack Apple they don't stop to consider what they are attacking them for.

Not at all. In this case I am attacking Apple for stupidity, hubris and perhaps a touch of malice, ambiguity is nowhere to be seen.

Re:But isn't this a good thing? (2)

dudpixel (1429789) | more than 3 years ago | (#35499934)

um, NFC IS an approved standard, and with Google behind it it pretty much IS an industry standard. With both Google and Apple behind it, then it would DEFINITELY be an industry standard.

Its got ISO approval and everything.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near_field_communication#Standards [wikipedia.org]

What has Apple's one got? Do you really think Apple will create something that works with anything/anyone except Apple?

People aren't ignoring what Apple said, they just dont believe it. Its bogus.

Apple's solution to this is to create their own? Well here's the thing, Apple's version wont be an industry standard either!! And it wont be open, like NFC is, so it'll be restricted to Apple only.

Think about what you (and the GP) have said. Then read the article again. Google have provided industry support for NFC, so there will now be many manufacturers supporting it. Apple are the ones creating their own, incompatible standard (as always), so actually, you ought to criticize Apple for not supporting what will shortly be a worldwide industry standard.

Re:But isn't this a good thing? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35500220)

Did you read the section under GMSA.
This is what counts as iPhone is a mobile phone.

Unscrewing molds (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35499540)

Unscrewing molds [intertech.net.tw]
is the core business of Intertech (Taiwan). With world level technology,
Intertech enjoys a very good reputation for making Injection Mold [taiwanmoldmaker.com] and
Plastic Molds [taiwanmoldmaker.com]for their worldwide customers.

Re:But isn't this a good thing? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35500212)

All I see is people complaining about this. But isn't this a good thing? Didn't anyone read the first few words in the summary, "Citing fears over a lack of an industry standard"?

One of the biggest things people complain about with Microsoft (and other companies as well, including even Apple sometimes) is that they invent their own "standards" (or implement standards in ways that aren't in fact standard) and ruin the possibility of interoperability with products from other companies. That generates no end of woe. Isn't it the geek's dream to have IT companies adhere to industry standards?

And here a company is actually paying attention to industry standards! But this is Apple. Slashdotters are going to complain. If they did the exact opposite and invented their own thing, Slashdotters would complain as well.

Didn't anyone read the few paragraphs that made up the "article"? (I know, I know... I must be new here...) Apparently you skipped TFA, but I didn't. FTFA:

But Apple isn't completely abandoning the idea of mobile payments. Instead, the company plans to implement its own contactless payment technology, according to The Independent. Like many of Apple's other products and services, the company's answer to mobile payments will run through its iTunes store. This would likely allow the company to reap a portion of transactions, as is the case for many products purchases through iTunes.

I'm sure Apple's top priority here is interoperability, right? Look, I'm not going to lie. I really like Android and I own a few Android devices (as well as a 2nd gen iPod Touch which I also really like, but for different reasons). I don't doubt that Google's primary motivation for pursuing widespread NFC adoption is financial. (Even if Google doesn't make a dime off of contactless payments directly, I'm sure they know more than anyone that, if nothing else, there's plenty of opportunity to make a pretty penny off of mobile advertising and coupons/rebate sites via in-store NFC tags and signs. They already tried to buy up GroupOn not too long ago.) However, I don't buy your argument for a second that Apple's motivation for declining to include an NFC chip in the iPhone5 is at all driven by the desire to use an "industry standard" contactless payment system. We both know that, "even Apple sometimes [...] invent[s] their own 'standards'."

Of course, this whole discussion presumes that TFA is even factually correct, but I suppose we'll find that out in due time.

Ummmm (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35499188)

Isn't the lack of a industry standard the huge blow to its adoption?

Nokia already did it. (1)

Lumpy (12016) | more than 3 years ago | (#35499248)

Nokia had several phones that did this. some massively old.

I had a Nokia 3220 years ago when I was in europe and used it to pay for bus fare in germany.

Nice to see apple and the others pulling a microsoft and trying to make an innovation something that is old tech.

Re:Nokia already did it. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35499508)

Yes, I had a Nokia phone 3220 years ago as well. They've never been the same since they stopped making them out of bronze have they? And that bus sporting the new fangled wheel things was so goovy. Ah, the good old days...

Re:Nokia already did it. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35499618)

Nokia had several phones that did this. some massively old.

I had a Nokia 3220 years ago when I was in europe and used it to pay for bus fare in germany.

Nice to see apple and the others pulling a microsoft and trying to make an innovation something that is old tech.

3220 years ago?

I dunno man, far-fetched.

Doesn't work for me (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35499304)

This will probably be a big deal for me when I go to renew my phone.

How is it a significant blow? (2)

aztektum (170569) | more than 3 years ago | (#35499352)

Isn't Android the market leader right now? With Apple pretty much splitting 2nd place with RIM?

It would seem to me that having this roll out in devices belonging to #1 would only strengthen their position.

Or does the RDF extend to markets everywhere? Will businesses avoid implementing it due to the runner up not having it?

I'm genuinely curious. Not trying to troll.

Yeah, Apple is really hurting lately (1)

Brannon (221550) | more than 3 years ago | (#35500118)

They are getting destroyed by Android, just obliterated. I hear massive layoffs are on the way, they are selling off most of their campus. Doomed.

lack of security standards? (0)

kryptonym (895823) | more than 3 years ago | (#35499400)

Not what they said, but this is a *serious* issue. Iphones can be pwned (and android is far worse), and the current iphone hardware architecture provides no mitigating capabilities whatsoever. Apple needs to redesign their hardware before they put our money at risk.

Three Kings (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35499404)

Steve Jobs blinked. This is a repeat run of Gordon Brown's phoney election. Can't be long now before the scandals and infighting erupt within Apple. Steve Jobs has lost his mojo. He's dead man walking. A burned out autistic. He should just resign now when he has some reputation to salvage.

Sure, I like Apple stuff because it's well designed but all this aspirational bullshit doesn't mean a thing if you can't afford it. After tinkering with a Hackintosh I lost interest. It was just too much hard work and there didn't seem much point in feeding Steve Jobs ego.

What Steve Jobs doesn't get is when you lose contact with the middle ground and people at the bottom you lose lost contact with reality and the driving force behind the market. Like politics has given Britain three Tory parties we now have three Microsofts. Like voter participation crashed expect the IT market to crash.

Well (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35499412)

Again /. with shitty apple news. Well, about the topic: Cant we use existing 2.4Ghz wifi hardware with new firmware/software to do the same thing? Maybe reserve a channel and use it for this? I wouldn't be as efficient because this frequency is designed for other purposes, but would work and the advantage of using existing hardware is huge.

Smart move... (0)

grapeape (137008) | more than 3 years ago | (#35499468)

There is no standard for this yet and I would rather see vendors like Apple staying out of it than picking sides and trying to push their "choice", including a non-standard that may or may not work depending on where you shop would make any device that chose a loosing technology obsolete much faster than they already become obsolete.

I have to wonder do many people even really want this? I've had my phone stolen before and it was hours before I noticed, plenty of time for someone to clean me out if they desired. Even with id checks supposedly required to make purchases its shocking how many times I go somewhere and just swipe without a glance using my credit card, any safeguards that could be encouraged would do nothing but make it the same hassle as using a credit or debit card now.

Re:Smart move... (3, Insightful)

dudpixel (1429789) | more than 3 years ago | (#35499972)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near_field_communication#Standards [wikipedia.org]

Just because Apple say there isn't a standard doesn't mean you have to blindly believe them.

About time the iDrones started using the grey matter between their ears and thinking for themselves again.

Its got ISO certification and everything, and the support of most manufacturers in the industry.

I'm not sure what part of it Apple consider to be not a standard....?

oh wait...they want to build their own incompatible system, and they want to profit from it. business as usual for Apple.

complaining about lack of industry standard and then proposing to create your own standard that will only work with your own devices...kind of hypocritical isn't it?

Japanese cell phone users laugh at Apple (2)

SilverJets (131916) | more than 3 years ago | (#35499702)

The contactless payment system was introduced in Japan in 2004 by DoCoMo and Sony.

Apple is laughing at you (1)

Brannon (221550) | more than 3 years ago | (#35500132)

...literally all the way to the bank.

You still think this is a race to be first to a feature. Meanwhile, Apple is printing money.

Dwolla? (1)

mbreitba (662883) | more than 3 years ago | (#35499850)

I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned Dwolla yet. They've just gotten the ball rolling, but it's quite an innovative payment system, and they've already got phone-based payments set up.

Payment without NFC (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35499970)

Some apps, liked TabbedOut, are doing this sort of thing without the NFC stuff. It's kind of interesting.

Old tech. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35500012)

Didn't the japanese already do this?

Same reason they don't support Blu-ray... (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35500166)

Apple doesn't support its users purchasing Blu-ray and thats an industry standard which they are part of the Board of Directors.

Why?

Because they want people purchasing only through iTunes.

Unless the charges can be linked to the iTunes account and Apple takes a nice cut of it, it won't be supported. Apple fans will defend that option as the smart thing to do and believe the PR BS.

Lets start the rumor of iBucks.

This is about Apple profits more than proven tech (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35500240)

I work for a large North American bank who issues credit cards. We already do Chip & Pin cards in Canada and Europe, and we're piloting several contactless payment methods in the U.S., including Visa PayWave and MasterCard Paypass.

NFC enables more than just payments, but it is the most visible and most widespread use of the tech so far. I think the security concerns are over blown - current implementations require a PIN entry on the phone itself to "unlock" the merchant's request for authorization, and the ability to use a challenge/response type exchange in the underlying technology is vastly superior to the old mag stripe and signature process that is still the standard in the U.S. Others will point to standard Chip & PIN with a swipe card that interfaces with an integrated circuit as more established, but I can tell you the systems in Europe and Canada are VERY unlikely to catch on in the U.S. because there is such a huge population of installed merchant terminals. Also, the current merchant terminal installed base is more "down-market" enabling more small businesses, and there is generally more old equipment floating around. Finally fraud rates in the U.S. are MUCH lower than in other parts of the world, (plus cardholders are not generally liable) so there is not as much incentive to invest in the added expense of upgrading all the merchants out there. For all these reasons, NFC is seen as the future in credit card payment processes by a number of people and institutions in the U.S. credit card market. A lot of companies that play in the credit card space (issuers, merchant banks, processors) are getting involved in the tech, so the biggest hold ups at this point are getting devices in the hands of the merchants and the cardholders. Issuers are eager for NFC solutions because they don't have to upgrade the cardholder's plastic - instead it's built into your phone, or you upgrade your phone with a special MicroSD card or NFC enabled case, or it's a completely separate fob.

The technology is coming, so this is move by Apple is in my opinion less about possible compatibility issues, and more about their perceived opportunity to create their own walled garden of payments.

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