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Why Mac OS X Is Unsuitable For Web Development

Soulskill posted more than 3 years ago | from the people-have-opinions dept.

Editorial 831

Hugh Pickens writes "Ted Dziuba has an interesting and amusing post on how he made a big mistake when he was offered a choice for his company laptop. His options were a Lenovo Thinkpad or a MacBook Pro, and he picked the Mac, thinking it would be closer to what he was used to. So what's wrong with using the Mac as a development machine for Milo, a Python application backed by PostgreSQL and Redis? 'I've only poked around a little, but so far I've found three separate package managers for OS X: Fink, MacPorts & Homebrew,' writes Dziuba, adding that when you are older, you will understand the value of automated version dependency satisfaction. Next is that your development platform should be as close as possible to your production platform, but 'OS X and Linux have different kernels, which means different I/O & process schedulers, different file systems, and a whole host of other implementation details that you'll write off as having been abstracted away until you have your first serious encounter with "It Works On My Machine.'" Finally, he says, Textmate sucks. 'Sooner or later, you have to face facts. Man up and learn Emacs.'"

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Oh (1)

The MAZZTer (911996) | more than 3 years ago | (#35645176)

I was going to say "I can't test to see if my websites work in IE9." (Note that I no longer care about 6, 7, or 8.)

Re:Oh (1)

Altus (1034) | more than 3 years ago | (#35645262)

For that problem you set up a windows install in a virtual machine.

Re:Oh (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35645490)

or just install windows 7 on the mac, its what i did..

Re:Oh (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35645392)

That would only be true if your browser had to be on the same computer as the webserver. I mean, it's good to see how the different browsers on different OSs work, but that's more a function of the generated X/HTML than the webserver.

Who the fuck is Ted Dziuba? (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35645524)

Who is Ted Dziuba? What has he done to deserve our attention?

Man up and learn emacs? (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35645180)

That's like saying man up and go see the new production of Glitter Boys on Broadway and then go get a pedicure.

I think he must have meant "man up and go learn vi".

Re:Man up and learn emacs? (1)

squidflakes (905524) | more than 3 years ago | (#35645240)

I was just about to post "I'm sure he meant 'man up and learn vi'"

Re:Man up and learn emacs? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35645260)

I think you meant Vim... not vi :)

Re:Man up and learn emacs? (1)

clang_jangle (975789) | more than 3 years ago | (#35645362)

Vim, exactly. Though it's not a man thing, it's a competence thing. But I must admit, many geeks are pretty darn amusing when they try to get macho...

Re:Man up and learn emacs? (2, Funny)

zach_the_lizard (1317619) | more than 3 years ago | (#35645278)

That's like saying man up and go see a Justin Bieber concert while prancing around in a field of flowers dressed in all pink.

I think you meant "man up use cat".

Re:Man up and learn emacs? (0, Troll)

pankajmay (1559865) | more than 3 years ago | (#35645444)

That's like saying man up and go see the new production of Glitter Boys on Broadway and then go get a pedicure.

That's like saying man up and go see a Justin Bieber concert while prancing around in a field of flowers dressed in all pink.

Oh... here come the gay jokes... seriously... grow up?
Jest? Sure, but whats with the perpetuation of a stereotype against gay people?

Oh BTW, plenty of men go see a production of Justin Bieber/Glitter Boys, prance, and get a pedicure... ain't nothing less manly about them!

Re:Man up and learn emacs? (3, Funny)

vgerclover (1186893) | more than 3 years ago | (#35645470)

$ man up use cat

No manual entry for up

No manual entry for use

CAT(1) User Commands CAT(1)

Re:Man up and learn emacs? (1)

McNihil (612243) | more than 3 years ago | (#35645334)

tisk tisk tisk... youngsters... man-up and learn ed

Re:Man up and learn emacs? (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35645510)

Newbie. Man up and learn TECO.

Re:Man up and learn emacs? (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35645364)

Emacs? Vi? Ed? Ppbbbsssshhhhh.
I just sit in my cube screaming binary at my monitor.

Re:Man up and learn emacs? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35645372)

A purist will only use ed on a teletype ASR-33.

Text editing on OSX (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35645182)

I would never develop on a platform where you have to press Alt-Ri---er, Command-Right to do what the Home button does on any other platform.

Re:Text editing on OSX (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35645254)

So remap it.

Bullshit. (0, Redundant)

RyuuzakiTetsuya (195424) | more than 3 years ago | (#35645184)

hasn't this guy heard of MAMP or XAMP in some flavor?

Configuring XAMP to run with python isn't exactly difficult. neither are the vast array of text editors available for OSX.

Seriously, what the fuck?

Re:Bullshit. (4, Insightful)

unity100 (970058) | more than 3 years ago | (#35645212)

doesnt matter.

'xammp in some flavor' running in your desktop os, still means 'different from the production environment' you are going to run the thing on. xammp on mac will need to behave as xammp on a mac.

Re:Bullshit. (0)

Endophage (1685212) | more than 3 years ago | (#35645248)

IMO it isn't exactly difficult to get python running with the pre-installed apache server. I got it all working in less time than it took me to get everything running on a windows box.

Re:Bullshit. (2)

Alternate Interior (725192) | more than 3 years ago | (#35645310)

Switched my work machine from a Mac Pro to Ubuntu PC a couple weeks ago, largely because of XAMPP. XAMPP doesn't do a good job replacing OSX's built in Apache/PHP, and that makes CLI PHP work (CakePHP's console) unnecessarily hard. Possible? Absolutely. But eventually I got tired of fighting with it, and wanted PHP to just work.

Re:Bullshit. (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35645336)

This is a stupid article. An operating system is just that - it provides an interface to hardware so you can run your programs. You can use anything to do web development. When he has a complaint about vi then I will read it. Otherwise this is a waste of my time. I just posted this because I needed to say it.

Re:Bullshit. (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35645428)

in other news grumpy people that cannot adapt himself to another development platform is going the way of the dodo.

oh please c'mon, he for his own admission could not care enough to understand apache to have a development platform compatible with his production system.

Re:Bullshit. (2)

Firehed (942385) | more than 3 years ago | (#35645358)

Which is great until you realize that your production environment runs on a case-sensitive filesystem, while you've been developing on HFS+ which is not case-sensitive*. Or something equally stupid which causes immediate fatal errors on your next deployment. Yes, I've been bitten by this several times. My company has all developers working out of VMs that are configured identically to our production environment (OS, software, yum repos, etc) for this reason. I can even use our standard deployment mechanisms locally and not destroy my system's crontab because even that's virtualized.

* By default. And there's a ton of OS X software that was written sloppily, so setting up your boot drive on case-sensitive HFS+ is basically pointless. I suppose you could set up a case-sensitive partition or drive and develop against that, but you might as well virtualize everything else at that point anyway, since something else inevitably won't line up.

Re:Bullshit. (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35645400)

He is an idiot. Period.

Don't bother to even post on this crap from someone who wants to know Emacs. Bbedit and vi are the gods of editing and stupid people like this needs to learn before posting shit like this.

There's nothing wrong with development on the Mac (5, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35645188)

...unless you expect it to let you do Linux development.

Of course, you can dual-boot Linux on it or run it in VMWare. But you knew that, right?

Re:There's nothing wrong with development on the M (1)

dwightk (415372) | more than 3 years ago | (#35645312)

right.

sensationalistic headline much?

Right on. He's an idiot. (5, Insightful)

jmcbain (1233044) | more than 3 years ago | (#35645382)

That is exactly his problem. He has a deployment environment that's different from this development environment, and he expects them to be the same when they're clearly not. This is quite possibly the stupidest drivel I have ever read, and obviously he's an amateur programmer. If your deployment environment is Linux, then get a Linux box to develop your code. His argument is just as stupid as saying "Windows is unsuitable for developing Linux software". This clown should be catapulted into the sun.

Furthermore, if this guy is a Web developer, then why is he concerned about underlying architectures? Stick with HTML and CSS and leave the heavy coding for the adults.

Uhh.. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35645204)

Web development with emacs? Are you a masochist, or only design 1994-era text-only websites?

I'm still... (2)

MrEricSir (398214) | more than 3 years ago | (#35645302)

...developing Gopher sites, you insensitive clod.

In other news: (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35645214)

Lazy asshole gets a laptop, blogs about it. Film at 11.

Virtual Machines (1)

musikit (716987) | more than 3 years ago | (#35645222)

i always used a lot of virtual machines. i had like 8 at one time. and i always had a VM that was as close to the dev machine as possible so i could test things and not get a "it works on my machine" in fact after a while i would only work on the dev environment that the bug was discovered on. doesnt matter what your computer's OS is as long as you find it easy to use.

Re:Virtual Machines (2)

bugs2squash (1132591) | more than 3 years ago | (#35645338)

I shop around VMs to try and find at least one environment that the software will run within and call it good.

Re:Virtual Machines + sshfs + MacVim (1)

simoncpu was here (1601629) | more than 3 years ago | (#35645494)

I agree that Mac OS X is bad for web development. That was my impression too, after I've bought my Mac Book. After a while, I realized that I can just use VirtualBox or VMWare to run a Debian dev environment. Running Debian has the advantage of replicating my production environment, so I know what modules and external binaries that I need to install later on. I also don't make the silly mistake of using incorrect capitalization on file names, since my file system is case-sensitive.

Textmate? Yeah, it's not suitable for programming. I solved this by mounting my dev VM using sshfs, and by editing my files through MacVim.

Emacs? (1, Insightful)

Mongoose Disciple (722373) | more than 3 years ago | (#35645224)

Using Emacs as your main tool for web development is like pounding nails in with your fist instead of a hammer. Sure, you could do it, but other than a misguided need to prove your masculinity and/or street cred, why would you?

What's worse, instead of making you seem like a badass, it mostly makes you look like somebody who doesn't understand the concept of their being a right tool for a job. Special butterfly keystrokes notwithstanding, Emacs isn't the best tool for every job, including this one. Nor is any pure text editor, honestly.

Re:Emacs? (4, Funny)

blair1q (305137) | more than 3 years ago | (#35645272)

Damn skippy.

You should be using vi (1) [vim.org] , with cscope (1) [sourceforge.net] .

FTFY (0)

Bobfrankly1 (1043848) | more than 3 years ago | (#35645230)

Finally, he says, Textmate sucks. 'Sooner or later, you have to face facts. Man up and learn Vi.'"

Fixed that for Hugh.

That's liek your opinion and stuff man (3, Informative)

bitroli (2022550) | more than 3 years ago | (#35645232)

Most projects have the binaries packed nicely, so you don't have to fiddle with fink/macports/flavor of the month.

Different I/O and process schedulers? Oh noes! If only we had posix and libc to abstract that crap away!

Last one is the best. I guess I didn't get the memo about textmate being forced on all mac users.

Re:That's liek your opinion and stuff man (2)

Altus (1034) | more than 3 years ago | (#35645320)

Seriously, get yourself a copy of BBEdit for christs sake.

Of course you are more than welcome to use Emacs if you want, or vi or even pico if your a little strange.

Re:That's liek your opinion and stuff man (1)

Billly Gates (198444) | more than 3 years ago | (#35645398)

"Different I/O and process schedulers? Oh noes! If only we had posix and libc to abstract that crap away!"

I didn't get that either. Unless you're a device driver writer or write custom high end software like CAD or databases then that should not matter. Especially if you are just making web sites??

Who the hell is Ted Dziuba? (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35645234)

Who the hell is Ted Dziuba, and why should I care what he has to say?

minor detail (1)

YodasEvilTwin (2014446) | more than 3 years ago | (#35645236)

There's nothing wrong with using a Mac. Ever heard of Windows and how it runs on Intel Macs? OSX is not synonymous with the hardware.

I don't get why... (1)

Telephone Sanitizer (989116) | more than 3 years ago | (#35645242)

I don't get why he doesn't just install Linux on his Mac.

There are a half-dozen suitable virtualization packages that he could use and installing it as a dual-boot OS is trivial.

He can get the best of both worlds with almost no effort.

Why don't people do a little research before posting anti-Mac rants?

Re:I don't get why... (2)

Mongoose Disciple (722373) | more than 3 years ago | (#35645268)

I don't get why he doesn't just install Linux on his Mac.

But at that point, what has using a Mac really gained you? I guess some people just love the hardware that much?

Re:I don't get why... (-1, Troll)

Telephone Sanitizer (989116) | more than 3 years ago | (#35645376)

I don't get why he doesn't just install Linux on his Mac.

But at that point, what has using a Mac really gained you?

A Mac. A very fast and rugged laptop with a great screen that runs the Mac OS natively, elegantly combining Unix and a modern GUI. (And yes, it's a damned handsome-looking computer.)

Plus Linux. Almost any flavor you'd like. Plus Windows if you're so inclined.

Apple gives you loads of options.

Re:I don't get why... (4, Funny)

Nerdfest (867930) | more than 3 years ago | (#35645488)

Apple gives you loads of options.

Absolutely. They're famous for it. Apple's all about choice.

Re:I don't get why... (0)

Altus (1034) | more than 3 years ago | (#35645388)

Its nice hardware and his company paid for it... who really cares.

Re:I don't get why... (1)

Jugalator (259273) | more than 3 years ago | (#35645446)

But at that point, what has using a Mac really gained you? I guess some people just love the hardware that much?

Seems like it. I like my MacBook Pro but if I'd prefer to use emacs and various package managers, I'd use Linux.

I personally think this guy is a little bit stupid in his head.

Re:I don't get why... (2)

dave420 (699308) | more than 3 years ago | (#35645332)

So he has to pay over the odds for hardware, and then buy a separate Windows license, instead of just buying the Lenovo? That doesn't sound too smart to me.

Re:I don't get why... (1)

BasilBrush (643681) | more than 3 years ago | (#35645472)

Last I heard you don't need a Windows license for Linux. All his "problems" are down to the fact that he's developing for Linux servers and Mac OS isn't Linux. Running WIndows won't help because it's even less like Linux.

Re:I don't get why... (1)

skribble (98873) | more than 3 years ago | (#35645518)

You really think Windows would get him closer to his native host platform?

Re:I don't get why... (1)

Wyatt Earp (1029) | more than 3 years ago | (#35645408)

In the time it took him to write the article about how a Mac doesn't work for him (not all web developers, just him), he could have gotten BootCamp and whatever other OS he wants to use to work, or set up a virtual machine.

Instead of fixing the issue, or admitting he doesn't know what the fark he is doing on a Mac, he bitched about the machine and OS being the problem.

Re:I don't get why... (1)

Jugalator (259273) | more than 3 years ago | (#35645432)

I don't get why he doesn't just install Linux on his Mac.

Agreed... This is like a Linux user asking why he can't do Mac development as seamless as on a Mac.

Or a Windows developer expecting to see Windows development on Linux as smooth as in Visual Studio.

Talk about the wrong tool for the job... And totally besides the point of whether which platform is "better" in general for web development. If he's looking for package managers and want emacs on Mac, he's doing it wrong.

what's the point (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35645244)

If your production target is Linux, then NEITHER Mac nor Windows are good development boxes. So shut up, install Linux (bootcamp or in a virtual machine) and get to work. Whine and whimper because Mac doesn't hold your hand --- MacOS is designed to hit a target market and it's not people developing for systems other than Mac.

Emacs? (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35645258)

How 'bout this clown "man up" and learn vi?

That's what virtual machines are for! (1)

TheReaperD (937405) | more than 3 years ago | (#35645266)

That's what virtual machines are for. You can use whatever OS you want for your day to day stuff and then have setups for whatever your development and testing requirements are. Plus, for web development, you could then test with Safari on Mac, Safari/Firefox/IE/Opera on Windows and Konqueror/Firefox/Iceweasal on Linux and have all your bases covered. (Hell, you could even test on Lynx if you wanted!)

Re:That's what virtual machines are for! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35645492)

I hear this often but it rings a little hollow when development and testing is your day to day stuff. Testing okay yea VMS make some sense but if you have to run a VM to do development in on your local workstation that kinda sucks, and you might as well run the platform you are developing for, unless that is impractical like your are targeting a mobile or something. Also I can see running on Vista or Windows 7 if you spend most of your time developing an application that is usually run on Windows server. Putting up with having to shuffle data in out of VM is dumb unless you spend very little time there like just for your testing, or there is something else to be gained.

I worked at a place for a while where all developers used a VM and had nothing on their laptops but basic windows / office and the VMWare client. All the VMs were on a ESX cluster with DRS enabled, as soon as your lit up something resource intensive like a build, or a test run over a largish data set other users would get migrated to a different host and you'd get the lightning speed of server hardware with lots of RAM and fast SAN storage. This way you could have a portable that always performed like a high-end workstation where you had internet access.

Flamebait article? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35645270)

I don't see much in the way of reasoned argument there. Also has he not heard of VMWare or Virtual Box? With things like Vagrant, using VBox is trivial. Besides, like any tool, if it didn't let people get the job done it wouldn't be used.

Seriously (3, Funny)

justmike2000 (2023602) | more than 3 years ago | (#35645280)

When will emacs or vim be available for Mac??? Python packages are also a huge problem on a Mac. It is not like setuptools exist for Mac OS X.... Also, when I develop for the web I always format all my devices to HFS+. I will never use FTP or SAMBA as they do not work on Mac.

Eh, just Bootcamp the damn thing (1)

TheRedDuke (1734262) | more than 3 years ago | (#35645284)

And stop whining. The MBP can run Ubuntu natively (very well too).

Re:Eh, just Bootcamp the damn thing (2)

dave420 (699308) | more than 3 years ago | (#35645402)

Or get the Lenovo, be able to natively test IE, dual-boot Ubuntu, and spend the difference in price on some goodies.

Re:Eh, just Bootcamp the damn thing (1)

Wyatt Earp (1029) | more than 3 years ago | (#35645430)

Sometimes Ubuntu doesn't like working with the Wifi card in a Mac, at least they didn't when I looked in November, is that fixed yet?

Re:Eh, just Bootcamp the damn thing (1)

yelvington (8169) | more than 3 years ago | (#35645434)

It can, but...

* You're still stuck with the lame Mac keyboard.
* Bootcamp insists on Mac first, and labeling Linux as "Windows." (If you have some way to fix the order and labeling, I'd love to know it.)

I haven't intentionally booted OS X in a year or so. Haven't missed it. Not one bit. My only regret is having done some documents and presentations in proprietary Apple formats that are hard to liberate. Much worse than Microsoft lock-in.

Emacs? (0)

Endophage (1685212) | more than 3 years ago | (#35645286)

Seriously? Vim all the way!

Great insight (0)

Billly Gates (198444) | more than 3 years ago | (#35645298)

I am so glad I have an automated package handler that can take care of dependencies on Windows. I love doing c:\sudo apt-get install Milo.exe to take care of everything. Oh wait.

In all seriousness Linux is incompatible with each other. Many people with laptops that are funky with Ubuntu run Fedora or SuSE. I have seen packages that run fine with Ubuntu and if it does not with Fedora then its "runs fine on my ubuntu machine" and users treat it like the only true Linux distro. MacOSX is no different.

What IDE does this guy use I may ask? With CSS you can not use Vi or emacs. Html is out and CSS is in. I hate CSS with a passion but you never will know what it looks like unless you use MS Expressions or Adobe Dreamweaver to give it eye candy to attract users. I wish there was a free gui tool for Linux so I could still use it for this purpose.

Re:Great insight (1)

DCstewieG (824956) | more than 3 years ago | (#35645416)

I'll pretend you didn't say anything about needing Expressions or Dreamweaver and recommend Firebug for playing with CSS on the fly. I've moved to Chrome for my personal browsing but it'll be a while before I use anything but Firefox for my main development work.

just wait till he hears about case insensitivity (1)

mveloso (325617) | more than 3 years ago | (#35645308)

He'll have an aneurysm when he finds out about the case insensitive/preserving filesystem.

It's funny, but true, and there is a solution (1)

lullabud (679893) | more than 3 years ago | (#35645544)

Obviously that's a joke, but it's also a serious problem in some instances. If you have a case-insensitive filesystem filling your whole disk partition and need to test case-sensitive applications, you can create a case-sensitive disk image using Disk Utility or hdiutil, then test your app on that. I had to do this in Subversion recently while troubleshooting a problem that had all the symptoms of a case-insensitivity problem.

Development != Deployment (2)

4pins (858270) | more than 3 years ago | (#35645326)

Dude, OS X gives you access to great development tools (XCode, Pixelmator, Adobe CS). Plus all the Unix goodies to publish your content (scp, rsync). I develop on OS X, and have a bash script to post the content to a local vm or the production server.

Re:Development != Deployment (1)

Billly Gates (198444) | more than 3 years ago | (#35645500)

"Dude, OS X gives you access to great development tools (XCode, Pixelmator, Adobe CS"

I can tell the guy that complained about MacOSX is not a real web developer ... or a good one. In this day and age developers need IDEs to test out CSS. Dreamweaver is nice. Not to mention how do you test IE?

Infact, I just uninstalled Fedora on this machine and switched back to Windows. I was tired of running Dreamweaver in a VM in Fedora. I tried doing development with just Eclipse, postgresql, mysql, and Drupal. But that is only part of it.

To me its easier to run that on the backend with a Vm in Windows or MacOSX rather than vice versa.

Only OS X lets you easily try out all systems (0)

SuperKendall (25149) | more than 3 years ago | (#35645328)

The thing he seems to miss is that he could use VirtualBox to run Windows and Linux instances for testing. Who would assume you could run a ported version of something and get it to work exactly as it did under Linux?

Only an OS X system gives you the ability to easily try things natively on all three systems, since creating a hackintosh is not really supported.

As for Textmate sucking? Well I run Aquamacs [aquamacs.org] . Perhaps he should do the same if he likes Emacs as I do for a primary text editor.

Honestly the whole thing comes off as someone that spent almost no effort whatsoever trying to learn the basics of the system he was on and is generally just a poorly informed rant placed here as red meat for the Apple Hater crowd.

Re:Only OS X lets you easily try out all systems (1)

Nerdfest (867930) | more than 3 years ago | (#35645536)

Only an OS X system gives you the ability to easily try things natively on all three systems, since creating a hackintosh is not really supported.

It's the *best* because they take away abilities both of the other major OSes have, the ability to easily run them on commodity hardware. OS X is fine as an OS, but that's not a point in its favour.

Sorry to have to say this, but... (5, Funny)

thestudio_bob (894258) | more than 3 years ago | (#35645330)

After looking at his website, I really don't think he should be offering advice on what tools to use for designing websites.

Just saying.

Re:Sorry to have to say this, but... (1)

Ibiwan (763664) | more than 3 years ago | (#35645380)

Well, his site is just evidence of what happens when one tries to develop in an Unsuitable environment!

Voodoo (4, Interesting)

Dan East (318230) | more than 3 years ago | (#35645342)

OS X and Linux have different kernels, which means different I/O & process schedulers, different file systems, and a whole host of other implementation details that you'll write off as having been abstracted away until you have your first serious encounter with It Works On My Machine.

I can't imagine writing code so finicky and unstable that it can only be cajoled into running under such a specific environment. If those details are important, then the software should be developed specifically to handle various cases. They way he describes it, it's a bunch of voodoo that can't fully be understood, and whenever the product doesn't work they simply place blame on some nebulous external factor.

Slashdot, effectively trolled (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35645352)

Wow, great article.

It only managed to appeal to every single religious debate on /. VI vs. EMACS, Apple vs. *, the only thing I haven't seen debated so far is his choice of PostgreSQL vs. MySQL or Oracle.

Well done troll, well done.

Re:Slashdot, effectively trolled (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35645534)

PostgreSQL sucks!!!

Let me get this straight (5, Funny)

istartedi (132515) | more than 3 years ago | (#35645354)

You just initiated a PC vs. Mac and an Emacs vs. Vi flamewar in one article? Are you MAD??? Don't you understand the potenia#%#$^#$^ NO CARRIER.

So let me get this right... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35645366)

He got a Mac to do Linux development and is complaining that it's not what he's used to? Ummm, ok. All the web development tools I use are on the Mac, but I also have to test deployment on Windows and Linux browsers, so I use this really useful thing called a VM. I wonder if he's every heard of them. Or of course he could just install one of the available Linux distros natively and be done with it.

There are some people who will complain about everything...

Huge binary package repositories are a Linux thing (1)

nxtw (866177) | more than 3 years ago | (#35645378)

Each is heinous in its own special way, but the fact that you have three competing package managers, that don't talk to each other has convinced me that Mac users, in the typical hipster fashion, brutally raped the Unix culture, throwing away everything that made it unique because they did not understand it.

Huge binary repositories that try to include as much compatible open-source software as possible (as found in a distribution like Fedora or Debian) are unique to Linux distributions, and specifically those distributions that are openly developed (Red Hat Enterprise Linux and SUSE Linux Enterprise both include a much smaller set of packages than Fedora or OpenSUSE). Other UNIX operating systems usually have a smaller core set of fully supported software, and then often have a build system or binary repository of additional open-source software; sometimes this is provided by the vendor, sometimes it's not.

Cry me a river... (2, Informative)

jwthompson2 (749521) | more than 3 years ago | (#35645396)

What a whiner. I use a Mac every single day for doing web development. Know how I get over the fact that I'm not deploying to a Mac in production? It's called a continuous integration (CI) and staging setup! You build your app locally and ensure the core of the test suite passes and then you push your changes up to CI where everything gets run against a test server stack that should be nearly identical to your production environment. And if the CI passes then the code get auto-deployed to the staging server for QA evaluation by the client, or other responsible party. And after they've signed off you kick-off a deployment of the code into production. And if I can't, don't want to, run CI and staging environments outside my system, I can fire up Parallels or VirtualBox and create a test environment. Boo hoo! This problem isn't remotely interesting unless you don't know what you're doing.

Be clear about what "Web development" means (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35645412)

I develop web using photoshop, css, html, javascript, php and mysql; it really doesn't matter what kind of machine I'm using (oh wait, no photoshop for linux, I guess it does)

Re:Be clear about what "Web development" means (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35645484)

What? Don't you know that GIMP is just as good? Everyone knows that, silly.

classic (1)

drkamil (1242294) | more than 3 years ago | (#35645420)

Sooner or later, you have to face facts. Man up and learn Emacs.

yeah, quite amusing.

Instal Linux on the mac? (1)

Tharsman (1364603) | more than 3 years ago | (#35645424)

The Lenovo would likely come with Windows. If his target was Linux, and he wanted to be oh so close to the target, then he would had to instal a flavor of Linux on that laptop anyways. WHY cant he install some form of Linux on the Mac? I guess he is man enough to learn Emacs but not man enough to instal Linux.

Re:Instal Linux on the mac? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35645528)

Agreed. I prefer VMs, but it's quite easy to install Ubuntu on a MacBook Pro.

Why not just install linux??? (1)

linux_geek_germany (1079711) | more than 3 years ago | (#35645436)

I don't get it... Simply install linux on the mac pro.

He could install Linux or vmware (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35645450)

He can install Linux on his MacBook Pro, as I did after I got fed up with Mac OS X. He can even install vmware on Mac OS X tho

Don't forget the JDK (1)

tthomas48 (180798) | more than 3 years ago | (#35645454)

I say as I'm about to have to rewrite some code to not use a JDK 6 method so that the Macs in the office can continue compiling code...

REALLY?!? (1)

ItsLenny (1132387) | more than 3 years ago | (#35645462)

First, I've developed on OSX, windows, and Linux (mainly ubuntu and CentOS)... OSX is by FAR the easiest to work on as a developer. When I switched to OSX about 4 years ago after 6+ years developing on windows / linux I became VASTLY more productive and spent far less time fixing my computer and more time actually doing work. The price tag I'll never argue. They are over priced.

Also, who cares if it's a different kernel. First of all, it's certainly closer to the CentOS server you're (probably) going to deploy it on than your windows computer. More importantly, we're talking about Web Development here right? If you're doing coding that is low level enough to be effected by the kernel then you should probably be developing on a environment that is a clone of your production server. You can still use your Mac Book to interface with it via FTP or SSH... or as others have suggested you can always just load up a virtual box running the exact OS of your production server to test against.

Final word.. I'm not a mac fan boy or anything... I do use a mac for most of my development, but I also use linux and windows computers regularly. I have employees that use windows I think it's whatever feels best to the individual and to me Mac is the most comfortable environment for development I've found. To argue you can't or shouldn't develop on a Mac is just absurd.

Common problem, uncommon expectations (1)

140Mandak262Jamuna (970587) | more than 3 years ago | (#35645464)

... until you have your first serious encounter with "It Works On My Machine.' ...

This problem is common to both Windows and Mac. But the difference is, in Mac, people will force you fix your code and make it work. In Windows you had been just shrugging and say, "It works in my windows machine, must be something wrong with your non standard system". All that bad karma has caught up to you and now you are bellyaching about having to actually fix your code.

Man up and fix your code buddy. In Mac/Linux world we don't coddle lazy coders much.

What a crock of shit! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35645474)

The only thing I got out of this is that Ted Dziuba sucks at web development. Somebody should introduce him to the concept of development hosts and staging servers.

Now if it had been XCode sucks for development (aka: iPhone development sucks) he may have had a point. OSX has vim, a browser, ssh and svn/git, if you need or want anything else for web development the problem isn't with your OS!

Terrible DNS caching as well (1)

imp7 (714746) | more than 3 years ago | (#35645478)

I'm a linux sysadmin who uses osx as a client and it seems like macs just love to cache everything and then some. I seem to run this command way to often to fix DNS and dscl lookup issues: dscacheutil -flushcache

Achievement won! (1)

Fuzzums (250400) | more than 3 years ago | (#35645486)

Worked on my w7 machine and crashed when running on XP :)
Turned out to be something with timeouts in the TCP-IP stack implementation of both versions of windows.

TextMate vs. Emacs? (1)

DdJ (10790) | more than 3 years ago | (#35645522)

I'm not sure why "TextMate versus Emacs" enters into this, especially since MacOS ships with Emacs and does not ship with TextMate. Can anyone explain?

I'm a developer (sometimes web) with a MacOS desktop. I've never heard of TextMate. I use Emacs quite regularly (and have since 1986, on equipment by Sun, IBM, DEC, NeXT, et cetera).

Darwin/Linux Kernels (1)

repetty (260322) | more than 3 years ago | (#35645530)

> "...OS X and Linux have different kernels..."

Damn. I just realized that all my web development has been a sham. I mean, if I were doing REAL web development then this kernel stuff would have blown up in my face, too.

Buildout (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35645532)

zc.buildout, really. Just stop depending upon OS/distro providers to get you consistent build deps; make your own, and make it build/update on multiple platforms. I tolerate Mac development daily with it, without it I would be pulling my hair out.

Misleading Title (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35645538)

Should say: Why Mac OS X Is Unsuitable For someone who writes web apps in Python and refuses to use an legitimate IDE.

I guess if you are still determined to keep up your hardcore hacker cred and work in unproductive technologies, this may apply.

But for those of us that grew up and realized that effortlessly cranking out web applications == a career. Hello Grails, IntelliJ, Mac OS X.

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