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Bashing MS 'Like Kicking a Puppy,' Says Jim Zemlin

timothy posted more than 3 years ago | from the audacity-of-hope dept.

GNU is Not Unix 648

jbrodkin writes "Two decades after Linus Torvalds developed his famous operating system kernel, the battle between Linux and Microsoft is over and Linux has won, says Linux Foundation Executive Director Jim Zemlin. With the one glaring exception of the desktop computer, Linux has outpaced Microsoft in nearly every market, including server-side computing and mobile, Zemlin claims. 'I think we just don't care that much [about Microsoft] anymore,' Zemlin said. 'They used to be our big rival, but now it's kind of like kicking a puppy.' From Android and the Amazon Kindle to embedded devices, consumer electronics and the world's largest websites and supercomputers, 'Linux has come to dominate almost every category of computing, with the exception of the desktop,' Zemlin argues as Linux approaches its 20th anniversary."

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The will to be free (5, Interesting)

suso (153703) | more than 3 years ago | (#35726756)

You can say that Linux has won when it hasn't beaten Microsoft in the market that makes it Microsoft. The only thing that Linux has won really in the desktop market is its right to exist. We fought long and hard to try to keep the desktop an open environment and competition going. I'm not talking about Linux vs. Windows really though, I'm talking about Open Source vs. Proprietary. But as long as salesmen breath, the battle to keep formats open will wage on. The new battle is how to deal with things like app stores.

Re:The will to be free (1)

suso (153703) | more than 3 years ago | (#35726770)

Sorry. I meant you can't say that Linux has won when it hasn't beaten Microsoft in the desktop market.

Re:The will to be free (4, Insightful)

Ynot_82 (1023749) | more than 3 years ago | (#35726862)

You're assuming the one goal of Linux (and by that, I mean the community around Linux and other FOSS projects) is to beat MS

While some may wish to see Linux raise above Windows in market dominance, others (and I wager, most) do not see this as important, and only wish to produce a better suite of software than MS

In this, Linux has most definitely won
and it won many years ago

Re:The will to be free (2)

rainmouse (1784278) | more than 3 years ago | (#35726944)

In this, Linux has most definitely won and it won many years ago

Not on the desktop, which as a PC user is the area most directly relevant to me. It would be nice if Linux was much better than Windows 7, it's just that for most people, it simply isn't.

Re:The will to be free (1)

mcgrew (92797) | more than 3 years ago | (#35727142)

It depends on the distro.

Re:The will to be free (4, Insightful)

uberjack (1311219) | more than 3 years ago | (#35727226)

It has very little to do with the distro; the problem is largely with hardware support and software availability. Even Ubuntu, arguably the most user-friendly distro has problems with sound playback on modern, commonly available sound hardware. Maybe I don't mind running 'sudo killall pulseaudio' every now and then when there's no sound playback - try explaining that to the common user. Then there's the software, of course. I love the open desktop, but Linux is nowhere near the point where it can compete with Windows on that front - even if it has gone quite a ways since its humble beginnings.

Re:The will to be free (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35727276)

I have a EEE. There's even a EEE specialized Ubuntu flavor and I STILL have problems with sound. Sometimes when I boot up no sound at all... I've tried all sorts of things, spent hours poking around forums, still the only thing to do is reboot and cross my fingers. So yeah, unless you get hardware vendor support for your specific machine, you're out of luck. Of course, the same could be said for Windows, it's just that for desktop hardware the default for manufacturers is generally to support Windows.

Re:The will to be free (2, Informative)

ozmanjusri (601766) | more than 3 years ago | (#35727280)

Even Ubuntu, arguably the most user-friendly distro has problems with sound playback on modern, commonly available sound hardware.

Recent versions of Ubuntu are fine, as are most other recent distros.

You should try them.

Re:The will to be free (1)

Mprx (82435) | more than 3 years ago | (#35727342)

I had problems with Pulseaudio breaking mplayer on a clean install of 10.10. Solution was to revert back to ALSA, which I've never had any problems with. Pulseaudio has never worked perfectly for me.

Re:The will to be free (1, Insightful)

Ynot_82 (1023749) | more than 3 years ago | (#35727210)

I've never used Windows 7 (nor Vista, nor XP post service-release 1), so I can't draw any comparisons, but most people are technically illiterate and will simply use what's given to them
This says nothing about which is technically "better" than the other
MS stays dominant on the desktop through inertia only

Re:The will to be free (1)

WorBlux (1751716) | more than 3 years ago | (#35727300)

In and of itself, it is better. Windows though has a larger consumer base, and thus a large ecosystem of peripherals that can improve the desktop experience. And things continue to move fast, especially with all the graphics work being done in the 2.6.38 and 2.6.39 kernels. One of the biggest problems is that nobody has really figured out how to commercialize linux on the desktop except to people who already use linux on the desktop.

Re:The will to be free (0)

Jeremiah Cornelius (137) | more than 3 years ago | (#35726958)

Every time you kick a puppy, God kills a kitten.
Please, think of the Domo-kuns.

Yeah, but what's the *down* side? (2)

zippthorne (748122) | more than 3 years ago | (#35727044)

I'm confused. Why would you say something like that if you want to discourage kicking puppies? Kittens aren't good for anything that cobras can't do better and with less feeding and poop cleaning.

Re:Yeah, but what's the *down* side? (1)

Aldenissin (976329) | more than 3 years ago | (#35727224)

You give cobra's to your kids for comfort and as a pet? That may be the way they do it where you're from, but at least a cat won't kill a child.

Re:Yeah, but what's the *down* side? (4, Funny)

larry bagina (561269) | more than 3 years ago | (#35727284)

I prefer a shaved pussy over a trouser snake any day.

Re:The will to be free (1)

bentcd (690786) | more than 3 years ago | (#35727132)

Every time you kick a puppy, God kills a kitten.

Every time God kills a kitten, I kick a puppy.

Re:The will to be free (2)

Ruke (857276) | more than 3 years ago | (#35727166)

You're assuming that Linux and Microsoft are, in fact, competing in the same arena, and that one can be said to "win". If Microsoft's goals are to dominate PCs, and Linux has no such goals, it's incongruous to say that Microsoft is "beating" Linux, in the same manner that it would be incongruous to say that Gebre Gebremariam beat me in the New York Marathon last year. Certainly he placed better than me; I did not run at all!

Market shares can be spoken of with a certain level of objectivity; however, using emotionally charged words such as "win" or "beat" is only going draw out fanboys eager to justify their own convictions.

Re:The will to be free (0, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35727448)

Linux has no such goals

Yep, that's why every year for the last fifteen years has been the "year of Linux on the desktop". This sounds like a whole lot to do about nothing, except for Linux advocates privately ceding the desktop wars to Microsoft and Apple and publicly declaring themselves victors because they didn't get thoroughly annihilated in the process.

Not only that (5, Insightful)

Sycraft-fu (314770) | more than 3 years ago | (#35726868)

But MS is still really big in the server market. Yes, Linux is big in webserver market. However that isn't the only server market out there.

Where MS is really big server (and desktop) wise is enterprise servers. Active Directory really works well and a lot of companies use it. No, OpenLDAP is NOT "just as good" or any of that jazz. I'm not saying AD is the One True Way(tm) but it is good and there's a reason a lot of companies like it.

This "Linux has beaten MS," crap is just that: crap. Linux is doing well and that is wonderful. However it hasn't "won" by any measure. Rather they are finding different markets. Linux is not popular on the desktop and it does not seem to be headed there. However embedded it has really found its niche and has become extremely popular.

Neither has won, neither has lost, they both continue to exist alongside one another.

Re:Not only that (1)

mcgrew (92797) | more than 3 years ago | (#35727236)

Ray Ozzie says Microsoft is dying. [cnn.com]

Re:Not only that (1)

Sc4Freak (1479423) | more than 3 years ago | (#35727378)

Microsoft is fairly big even in webservers. IIS serves 20% of the web [netcraft.com] which, while a minority, is still a significant marketshare.

Re:The will to be free (2)

stanlyb (1839382) | more than 3 years ago | (#35726980)

Actually, winning the Desktop war will be the biggest loss for the FSF. At end of the day, linux and open source is not about restricting you to only one OS (linux), but giving you the right to make a choice (linux/windows/mac/whatever.....). So, linux, please, don't win that war.

The market ? (1)

unity100 (970058) | more than 3 years ago | (#35727010)

which market ? desktop computers is a bigger market than servers ? the minimum server lease is $50/month. that is even entry level server. linux dominates server market from entry level to load balanced clusters to ddos protected single servers in prices 800/mo to thousands of dollars (4 figure) a month and over. linux also dominates in the cloud.

really. the war is over server side. server = linux so far.

but its natural for a lot of corporate types in non i.t. corporations or corporations with their own infrastructure to not know about this - you need to be in web hosting business in order to know it first hand.

Re:The will to be free (1)

clang_jangle (975789) | more than 3 years ago | (#35727016)

I love linux, but this article reminds me of the head crusher. [youtube.com]

Re:The will to be free (2)

Larryish (1215510) | more than 3 years ago | (#35727046)

This is "The Year of Linux on Everything but the Desktop".

The acronym is "TYLED".

Got a light?

Re:The will to be free (1)

Rimbo (139781) | more than 3 years ago | (#35727058)

Linux doesn't have to beat proprietary software on the desktop any more, because the desktop has become largely irrelevant. "This thing you want to do only works on Windows/proprietary environment" has become almost anachronistic.

Re:The will to be free (1)

TheEyes (1686556) | more than 3 years ago | (#35727122)

Linux doesn't have to beat proprietary software on the desktop any more, because the desktop has become largely irrelevant. "This thing you want to do only works on Windows/proprietary environment" has become almost anachronistic.

So you're saying Steam is irrelevant and anachronistic?

Re:The will to be free (1)

IB4Student (1885914) | more than 3 years ago | (#35727170)

Steam works great in WINE, and other than Just Cause 2, so do all of my games. Heck, Crysis 2 was working fine on WINE even before release. And, there's an official Steam client for OS X

Re:The will to be free (1)

IB4Student (1885914) | more than 3 years ago | (#35727190)

Coincidentally, I had to reinstall Steam on my Windows box, for some reason :-/ wouldn't let me log in via the client, but the web interface accepted me. And trying to do a repair install kept throwing an error, so I had to tear open the .msi and run a few components manually. Installing via WINE was a lot easier >_>

Re:The will to be free (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35727228)

in terms of world wide computing? Yep its an insignificant zit.

Re:The will to be free (1)

Draek (916851) | more than 3 years ago | (#35727370)

Videogames in general are irrelevant, at least above the level of Farmville and Solitaire. Really, even a dying company like Sun managed to pull in more money than Electronic Arts before being acquired, compared to guys like Apple or Microsoft they're just a speck of dust in the entirety of the computing world.

Re:The will to be free (2)

Drishmung (458368) | more than 3 years ago | (#35727450)

Nintendo. Revenue (2009): $18,899.20 M Microsoft. Revenue (2010): $62,484.00 M

I'd say that's significant.

Re:The will to be free (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35727440)

No, Steam works under Wine.

Re:The will to be free (1)

marcello_dl (667940) | more than 3 years ago | (#35727184)

The desktop is not irrelevant, but... linux desktops work better than windows ones. Easier to setup, to keep updated and clean.
I think the reasons that keep linux from getting more share are: not enough native games (there are and are good but ppl want the flavour of the month) and migration impedance from what's already deployed (waiting for new samba) to the PEBKAC that freaks out when linux has icons of a different color (then came office ribbon and the usual UI reshuffle of new windows versions: karma exists)

Re:The will to be free (1)

man_of_mr_e (217855) | more than 3 years ago | (#35727256)

20 years ago, Microsoft had no server OS. How could Linux rise to defeat Microsoft in a market it wasn't even in when Linux was created?

Apart from that, Linux's "dominance" in the server market is misunderstood. Typically, the only evidence to support this is the Netcraft hostname summary, which shows that 70 some percent of hostnames run on an Apache web server. This is misleading, because not only does it not take other kinds of servers into account (Database, File, Directory, etc..) it doesn't even accurately reflect web servers, since a) Apache runs on Windows (and lots of people do run Apache on Windows, particularly with Tomcat) and b) Windows servers tend to be corporate servers which do not have a large numbers of hostnames per server. Most ISP's run Linux or BSD servers and have very high levels of hostnames per server.

hostnames != marketshare.

Last I read, Linux servers only accounted for about 30-some% of all servers sold. And in the server market, people don't buy servers with Windows and wipe them and replace them with Linux. Windows server licenses are too expensive for that.

Certainly, Linux dominates in the android vs windows mobile market, and it dominates in the server appliance market over windows. But that's about it.

Not quite done yet (3, Insightful)

Sarten-X (1102295) | more than 3 years ago | (#35726816)

So 2011 will be the year of the Linux desktop, right?

Linux has gained recognition. It's something that IT managers won't usually dismiss immediately. Sure, that's important, but the average user out there still doesn't know that Linux exists, let alone what it is. There's a long road ahead of us, even longer than the path we've just traveled. Wear good shoes.

Re:Not quite done yet (4, Insightful)

codepunk (167897) | more than 3 years ago | (#35726892)

The desktop does not matter it is only a device on which to run a web browser. The average user spends most of his online time running pages served from linux. Then he goes and sits in front of his tv powered by linux, plays with his phone powered by linux, scrolling through his dvr running linux.

Re:Not quite done yet (1)

Lennie (16154) | more than 3 years ago | (#35727180)

And the internet connection provided for all these devices is a DSL-/cable-modem/router running Linux, the websites he/she visits are running on Linux.

Re:Not quite done yet (2)

Drishmung (458368) | more than 3 years ago | (#35727206)

The desktop does not matter it is only a device on which to run a web browser. The average user spends most of his online time running pages served from linux. Then he goes and sits in front of his tv powered by linux, plays with his phone powered by linux, scrolling through his dvr running linux.

The average user spends most of her [females now outnumber male Internet users] online time running pages served from linux [connected via cable or DSL modem using VxWorks, on core Internet infrastructure using IOS or FreeBSD]. Then she goes and sits in front of her tv powered by linux, plays with her phone powered by Nokia OS [most phones aren't smart phones], scrolling through her dvr running linux. She also listens to her iPod (running iOS) while driving a car containing many embedded microprocessors, which don't run Linux. Nor do the processors in her air conditioner, washing machine, microwave etc..

My point being that computers are now ubiquitous, and most of them don't run Windows, or Linux.

2013 will be the year of the Linux Desktop! (1)

Quick Reply (688867) | more than 3 years ago | (#35726826)

...right after the world ends in 2012.

Re:2013 will be the year of the Linux Desktop! (3, Funny)

rainmouse (1784278) | more than 3 years ago | (#35726992)

...right after the world ends in 2012.

Citation required.

Well, then... (4, Funny)

JKConsult (598845) | more than 3 years ago | (#35726830)

This being /., it looks like we're in for a whole lot of puppy-kicking.

MSFT Market Cap (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35726840)

216.61 Billion. Those are US dollars. Market share revenue.

Re:MSFT Market Cap (1)

cptdondo (59460) | more than 3 years ago | (#35726888)

I wonder what the market cap of linux-based devices is.... You know, all those routers, phones, and widgets that run linux. Aren't ARM CPUs outselling everything else by about 10:1? And a lot of those end up running some variant of linux.....

Re:MSFT Market Cap (1)

Lennie (16154) | more than 3 years ago | (#35727238)

Apple is bigger, what is your point ? ;-)

Re:MSFT Market Cap (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35727274)

216.61 Billion. Those are US dollars. Market share revenue.

Apparently /. doesn't take the "less than" symbol. Pretend there's one between "market share" and "revenue."

Let's try this (1)

colinrichardday (768814) | more than 3 years ago | (#35727402)

Let's see <

Breaking newsflash! (4, Funny)

MrEricSir (398214) | more than 3 years ago | (#35726844)

"Director of foundation says his foundation is doing very well. More at 11."

Where's linux? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35726848)

From a linux fan:

Yeah really? Did linux win? No I don't think so. Even if do like linux, I don' think it won. windows is everywhere (desktops), and the only challenger seems to be MACOSX. Sorry, but where's linux on the desktop? pretty much nowhere....

Re:Where's linux? (2)

Korin43 (881732) | more than 3 years ago | (#35727020)

I think the argument is that the "year of x on the desktop" isn't important, since the "year of the desktop" is over. Who care if Windows wins in a market that doesn't matter anymore? Linux wins everywhere else.

Of course.. I think the "desktops are so last year" thing is just a fad, but we'll see.

Re:Where's linux? (2)

euphemistic (1850880) | more than 3 years ago | (#35727346)

The point is that the world of things that compute is vastly more than just the single desktop you've got sitting in front of your face right now. Sure, in your perspective that's all you really can see everyday in the traditional definition of "computer", but there are vast arrays of networks and electronic devices and things you never ever consider the programming and workings of that you rely on every single day; and while they might have a plethora of different brandnames associated with them, behind the scenes is good ol' linux doing its stuff.

Sometimes it's more than enough to control everything *except* the most visible sector of a particular market, and honestly, it's probably better to be the invisible winner.

"with the exception of the desktop" (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35726850)

"Except for that, Mrs Lincoln, how did you like the play?"

Sorry, but the PC desktop is still the king, and until you have beat MS there, you have not beat MS.

Re:"with the exception of the desktop" (2)

symbolset (646467) | more than 3 years ago | (#35726988)

There is more net profit for the manufacturer in a smartphone than a desktop, and they move more units too. So the desktop is king of what, exactly?

Idiotic Statement (4, Insightful)

192_kbps (601500) | more than 3 years ago | (#35726874)

'Linux has come to dominate almost every category of computing, with the exception of the desktop' The desktop still dominates every other category of computing combined. Zemlin's statement that Linux has won is disingenuous.

Re:Idiotic Statement (5, Interesting)

codepunk (167897) | more than 3 years ago | (#35726932)

The desktop is a device mainly used by the general public to run a web browser and the Windows cannot even do that well. Once that user fires up a browser his world is dominated by linux and he does not even know it.

Re:Idiotic Statement (3, Insightful)

betterunixthanunix (980855) | more than 3 years ago | (#35727100)

Embedded systems dominate the desktop, at least in terms of deployment. There are far more embedded systems in use right now than desktops -- orders of magnitude more, in fact. Now, this is not to say that the statement about Linux dominance is any more correct, since most embedded systems do not actually run Linux. If anything, TRON derivatives dominate that category.

Consumer Electronics, really? (3, Insightful)

oboylet (660310) | more than 3 years ago | (#35726900)

The XBOX 360 begs to differ. Where exactly is the open source video game console that is dominating the home market? Linux and FOSS more broadly has done some incredible things, but let's be real.

Re:Consumer Electronics, really? (-1)

farnsworth (558449) | more than 3 years ago | (#35727106)

The XBOX 360 begs to differ.

Every week more Android phones ship than all the XBoxes that ship in an entire year.

Re:Consumer Electronics, really? (2)

Rimbo (139781) | more than 3 years ago | (#35727116)

Is this really necessary? The entertainment industry follows different rules from every other industry, for one thing. More importantly, it produces nothing you can't live without, and very, very little that is particularly edifying.

Moreover, the number of Xbox 360s sold is dwarfed by the number of consumer electronics that are running Linux, from wireless routers to mobile phones to GPS units...

Re:Consumer Electronics, really? (1)

Desler (1608317) | more than 3 years ago | (#35727442)

from wireless routers to mobile phones to GPS units...

Are we ignoring that most routers run VxWorks or QNX?

Re:Consumer Electronics, really? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35727156)

The XBOX 360 begs to differ. Where exactly is the open source video game console that is dominating the home market? Linux and FOSS more broadly has done some incredible things, but let's be real.

Hmmm lets see as I turn on my Samsung TV, my wife picks up her Kobo, and I receive an email on my Android asking me to pick up some buffer pads for the job tonight!!! and just about everybody that turns on a TV or runs a blueray player to watch Youtube or surfs the net with their tv is running LINUX....XBOX smex box the real entertainment and fast communications market is Linux ...though most grannies and XBOXED up gamers haven't got a clue what is going on. That is the beauty of the linux os it is seamless and does not need branding and this is why it works in the background and even Joe Blow salesman at BestBuy does not even know that when he sells an LED inernet enabled tv he is polluting the pure world of software as seen from the prospective of Redmond coloured glasses!

Re:Consumer Electronics, really? (1)

Drishmung (458368) | more than 3 years ago | (#35727306)

But the XBOX360 does not dominate games consoles either. The winner in consoles is probably Wii at the moment, which is Linux based. In portable systems it might be iPod Touch/iPhone [iOS], or PSP[proprietary] or GBA[?, not Linux AFAIK]---but it is certainly not Windows.

Re:Consumer Electronics, really? (0)

dch24 (904899) | more than 3 years ago | (#35727444)

The PS3 is linux based as well.

The fact that Microsoft is still maintaining their own embedded OS for the XBox is an indication of how out of touch they are.

Not a puppy, please! (5, Funny)

xkr (786629) | more than 3 years ago | (#35726906)

More like kicking an old, weak, sick, blind-in-one-eye, arthritic dog...

... Even if was the very same dog neighbor that terrorized you as a kid, killed your pet cat, barked all night, and pooped in your front yard every day.

Re:Not a puppy, please! (1)

Samantha Wright (1324923) | more than 3 years ago | (#35727454)

Also, the dog has thousands of sock-puppet friends at its disposal who will block you from using any public utilities if it looks like you're inventing a shoe or boot, and weighs several thousand tons.

I love this analogy!

Overstatement - Windows is still a major server OS (4, Insightful)

jbplou (732414) | more than 3 years ago | (#35726908)

Windows Server may not be as dominate as Linux but it certainly is not dead. They compete in every server category and have decent market share while it is not dominate like desktops it is still a multi-billion dollar business that is certainly successful. Active Directory, SQL Server, ASP.Net, IIS these are all major products that run on WIndows Server, you can find thousands of jobs on any major job search engine. I think it is a mistake to say MS only has desktop operating systems, it is clearly still a player in the server market.

Re:Overstatement - Windows is still a major server (3, Insightful)

SomePgmr (2021234) | more than 3 years ago | (#35727124)

Well put. They're dominant on the desktop and they own office productivity. They're strong in the server market and they're strong in the gaming market. I'd guess they're not doing too shabby with set-top devices (all uverse devices is quite big in itself). And let's be realistic, you can't count them out of the 10,000 other markets they have their fingers in. They have a certain history of throwing money at some things until they win (xbox, anyone?).

That's hardly a sad-little-puppy situation.

No, puppies can learn loyalty and compassion. (1, Insightful)

Narcocide (102829) | more than 3 years ago | (#35726922)

Kicking Microsoft is more like kicking the snake that just bit you.

Puppy (1)

inkrypted (1579407) | more than 3 years ago | (#35726930)

It's hard to think of Microsoft as a puppy with a Linux distribution called Puppy Linux. I see them more as a confused bitter old goat at this point.

Queue the Cossacks in 5, 4, 3, 2, 1.... (1)

macraig (621737) | more than 3 years ago | (#35726956)

Oh, look: more commentary from an unbiased non-partisan academician.... /sarcasm

Linux COULD take the desktop market too. (2)

MrCrassic (994046) | more than 3 years ago | (#35726966)

Linux has had the technical capability for grabbing a significant foothold in the consumer desktop market for a while now. However, as long as companies continue pushing Windows-only hardware and the communities that actually continue encouraging the dichotomies that exist amongst them (like with the UI, the one thing that should be a unified effort), Linux will continue fighting an uphill battle. It also doesn't help that Windows is so much easier to deploy and administer company-wide than Linux is.

Re:Linux COULD take the desktop market too. (1)

symbolset (646467) | more than 3 years ago | (#35727048)

Linux won't take the desktop. It will obsolete it.

Re:Linux COULD take the desktop market too. (1)

onkelonkel (560274) | more than 3 years ago | (#35727232)

Almost every white collar worker uses a computer all day long to do their work. These computers are probably 95% or more running some version of MS Windows. I'm curious to know how Linux will make this all obsolete. I'm also curious to know when this is going happen.

Re:Linux COULD take the desktop market too. (1)

Lennie (16154) | more than 3 years ago | (#35727298)

The desktop is a chicken&egg problem.

And a Microsoft-still-does-deals problem I think.

Just look what happend to the netbooks-market.

I wonder if the same will happen to the tablet-market.

Re:Linux COULD take the desktop market too. (1)

msobkow (48369) | more than 3 years ago | (#35727380)

It also doesn't help that Windows is so much easier to deploy and administer company-wide than Linux is.

I really have to disagree with that statement. An experienced Linux admin can deploy and maintain a much greater number of Linux desktops than Windows desktops. Management of those workstations is not what's holding Linux back -- it's the constant churn of "new" UI themes and interfaces from Gnome and KDE that baffle the Windows users when they first try to use Linux.

My own experience with Linux on the desktop has been frustrating. For example, I cannot find a single DVD burning program that will support my Toshiba drive at 16x burning. The music players I've tried suck horribly. The Mono developer/debugger absolutely sucks -- it won't even break at breakpoints in the code when running in debug mode, much less allow you to do live edits/patches while on a break point. Other than that it's been very usable, but it does take getting used to.

kicking a puppy that rips limbs off (1)

jsprenkle (2009592) | more than 3 years ago | (#35726972)

They may have "lost" but lets please not lose sight of the awful things they did just so they could make money.

This is a relief (5, Funny)

eflester (715184) | more than 3 years ago | (#35726978)

I was somewhat gratified to see this. I've been feeling somewhat guilty about my growing tendency to feel sort of sorry for MS lately. See, I didn't even type "M$" like I certainly would have a few years ago. What with all the i-things and the Desktop is dead and we'll do everything on a little hand-sized touch-screen now they seem to be moving from the Great Defective Monster to simply Irrelevant. Rather than kicking a puppy, it's like kicking your grandfather. He can't remember who you are, but he's kind of upset by it.

Corporate desktops == corporate servers (4, Insightful)

hawguy (1600213) | more than 3 years ago | (#35727006)

The problem with giving the desktop market to Microsoft means that corporations are stuck with a Microsoft-heavy server environment too and it's hard to move to other server platforms.

Once you include Active Directory, print servers, fileservers, sharepoint, system center, exchange, sql server and other support servers to run it all, a mid-sized company might have 20 or more servers just to run their Microsoft infrastructure. (many of those applications *could* run on Linux, but MS products integrate together and have interdependencies that make it hard to break loose)

So since they are already paying for Windows Admins to run their Windows infrastructure, when it comes time to add a web or application server, the easy choice is to go with MS -- licensing doesn't cost much more on top of their existing MS licensing costs and they already have Windows expertise in house.

Re:Corporate desktops == corporate servers (1)

Danny Rathjens (8471) | more than 3 years ago | (#35727368)

samba not only fills the role of file server, but quite ably fills the other necessary roles such as a front-end to cups for printing and to open ldap for the domain controller and single sign on authentication.
zimbra - which is a pretty wrapper around postfix/amavis/clamav/spamassassin - provides outlook and activesync features which make push mail and contacts and calendar integration with outlook and various mobile phones a breeze.
It's really not that hard to manage a decent sized office with a few hundred windows desktops without having to use a single windows server.

In fairness I must admit we had to use one windows server for blackberry enterprise server thanks to the proprietary encryption - but those are phasing out with more employees using android now. (and zimbra has a connector for the BES sync, too)

Re:Corporate desktops == corporate servers (1)

DavidD_CA (750156) | more than 3 years ago | (#35727452)

Once you include Active Directory, print servers, fileservers, sharepoint, system center, exchange, sql server and other support servers to run it all, a mid-sized company might have 20 or more servers just to run their Microsoft infrastructure

They could... or they could run all of that on one single machine that uses Microsoft Small Business Server.

Really. Look it up.

pro-less than nothing.support.gov rising on /. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35727028)

the pursuit of detractive snidities has never been more useless. 'bashing' fuddles is much like critiquing john gotti, without the guns, but with the gansterious hostage taking/contract terminations etc..

so, we'll then expect to see you at any one of the million babys+
play-dates, conscience arisings, georgia stone editing(s), & a host of
other life promoting/loving events. guaranteed to activate all of our
sense(s) at once. perhaps you have seen our list of pure intentions for
you /us, beginning with disarmament?

The puppy deserved it (1)

Culture20 (968837) | more than 3 years ago | (#35727050)

If it's peeing on my leg or biting me non-playfully, the puppy deserves a kick. Its parents would nip at it to keep it in line.

Re:The puppy deserved it (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35727090)

If it's peeing on my leg or biting me non-playfully, the puppy deserves a kick. Its parents would nip at it to keep it in line.

I know this is off-topic, but if you honestly can't see the difference there... well, let's just say I hope you'll never have a dog.

Hidden linux (3, Insightful)

Dan East (318230) | more than 3 years ago | (#35727068)

It seems that where Linux has succeeded is where Linux is completely hidden behind the scenes, as far as the consumer is concerned. Even in the case of Android, with a stock device, it would be utterly impossible to know it was running Linux. In fact, there's an entire Java layer between the user and Linux. My point is that Linux, the brand, has failed when it comes to the masses. In other words, Linux has done well where companies can take their time and make an informed decision about which OS they wish to embed in their hardware. That is where Linux has succeeded, and a big part of that is simply that Linux is stable, supports ubiquitous hardware, and is free. But as far as end consumers choosing Linux, that hasn't happened yet.

Re:Hidden linux (2)

u17 (1730558) | more than 3 years ago | (#35727282)

Yes, and it doesn't matter how many devices run Linux. Increasing that number has never been an important goal for anyone but maybe Linux developers. The important number is how many devices are open and how many users actually use that openness to run free software. As computer-literate users, we care whether we trust the software on the device, whether it acts in our interests and whether it is we who control it and we don't have to share that control with an external entity. By campaigning for the proliferation of Linux, we don't really act in our own interests. What we should be campaigning for is that devices give us the ability to install and run solely (or at least mostly, where it matters) free software. Then we can feel comfortable and in control when using them.

Re:Hidden linux (1)

Lennie (16154) | more than 3 years ago | (#35727340)

The Woz recently said something along the lines of:

"Tablet is the PC for 'normal people'" (read: consumers)

The tablets Apple sells is a closed environment, nothing like the PC. Where the OS is also most hidden.

So I guess the desktop never really was a good product for the consumer market.

Kicking a puppy (1)

Arancaytar (966377) | more than 3 years ago | (#35727110)

... which keeps doing its OS business all over the carpet.

Won in what terms? (1)

JDOHERTY (323140) | more than 3 years ago | (#35727118)

In money terms M$ is winning, isn't it? Linux has helped other firms (Oracle-Sun etc.) maintain their relevance. How much revenue they would actually ascribe to it is, probably artificially low but still not M$ amounts. Maybe that's the problem since it's free it's not recorded how much value it is supporting? Another angle is how many programmers earn their living writing for M$ v's Linux?

Like a puppy? Sure, an 800lb puppy (1)

Jailbrekr (73837) | more than 3 years ago | (#35727126)

It'll lick whoever it damn well pleases. And if it wants to hump your leg, not only will it do so with as much fervor and friction as it can create, you will damn well like it. At least you hope its your leg.

Won? Won what? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35727140)

Linux is free. Windows costs money, and it still reigns where it always did, the desktop.
Linux may have won a pirric battle elsewhere, but it's Bill and Steve the ones who stare at us from up there...

And the linux desktop has always been sad to say the least.

Mine is bigger than yours (3, Insightful)

dhavleak (912889) | more than 3 years ago | (#35727148)

This is just an absurd conversation that has gone on far too long.

The way of measuring your own success should not be dependant on somebody else's market share, or even relative to it. It should be based on your own mission and your own goals. There's plenty of market for everyone in the world to be successful if they want it badly enough. Linux is certainly doing well, and revenues and profits at Microsoft seem healthy as well -- so I don't get this obession with MS.

I don't get the obsession with stamping out proprietary software either. It's a choice that some companies make for their business model, and a choice that some customers make for their software (not choosing proprietary so much as choosing software that is proprietary because it meets their needs). It's a proven and successful business model too -- just like FOSS. You can have failures/successes in FOSS and you can have that with proprietary software as well. People just seem to be on the lookout for something to get inflamed about all the time. Absolutely nothing of interesting here.

I love Linux, but... (1)

MadeInUSA (2028028) | more than 3 years ago | (#35727172)

This kind of grandiose and untrue statement just makes "Linux People" look weird and niche. Linux achieved a lot and will still achieve a lot more in the future, but there is no way Linux has beaten MS - not for end users, not in enterprises and not in mindshare. The (unfortunate) reality outside of ./ is that few people know Linux and everybody knows Microsoft - and most of these people actually USE Microsoft products. And again, why should we really care about this? The market is much more competitive than it was years ago. There are other huge companies growing and possibly displacing Microsoft, like Google and Apple. While MS is still a formidable company and will likely remain so for the foreseeable future, what about Apple products (a more valuable company than MS in market cap and as commercial and proprietary as they come)? Does Linux should try to beat that too? No, I say, Linux should strive to be the best it can be, focus on users and stop worrying about some nonsense ideological battle against big companies that provide useful products that many people actually love.

Information just wants to be free (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35727188)

But puppies will piddle on your feet if you don't whack em with a rolled up newspaper.

How seriously should we take him? (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35727212)

You guys bitch and moan when some Microsoft shill pumps up Microsoft; well, this is some Linux shill pumping up Linux. I don't give this guy any more credence then I would Steve Ballmer.

patent law could crush linux like a bug (1, Insightful)

decora (1710862) | more than 3 years ago | (#35727242)

linux has not won. imagine every business using linux being successfully sued for patent infringement by microsoft.

I know you think 'but that doesnt make any sense'. i hate to inform you that the US justice system also doesn't make any sense. Even if you have judges that are not corrupt, those judges only follow what the law tells them to do. And the law is made by congress. And congress is elected by campaign contributions. Campaign contributions are given by ... Microsoft. And Oracle. And Amazon. And the hedge fund people whose cocaine and hooker money is tied up in patent litigation securities or whatever they call the new 'financial products' built around slicing and dicing IP the way mortgages were in 05/06.

Linux is not on top of the mountain, it is headed for the end of the fucking waterfall, about to go straight down and be dashed on the rocks of capitalist reality. You think a trillion dollar industry like proprietary software is just going to sit back and die? You think all the investors sitting on hundreds of billions of dollars of debt of companies like Microsoft and Cisco are going to sit back and watch those bonds go to 0?

Look what happened when mortgage bonds died; the criminals all got bailed out, ordinary people got fucked out of their houses. Tack on a $2500 fee for no reason, declare the payment late, foreclose on the house, send an locksmith to change the locks while you are inside the fucking place. Was that fair? Hell no. Did it violate the fundamental principles of private property? Hell yes.

You thought HB Gary was some tiny flea sucking the teat of the federal government? More like a little piggy of a gigantic piggy army, a massive field of suckling oinkers, like pod blobs in some Matrix, sucking the blood of the real humans dry. What happens when you awaken ten thousand sleeping, pulsating blood bigs? Hint: They don't go "oh, bummer, guess I'll go get a real job".

They attack. They attack anything disturbing their way of life. They attack anyone attacking them; "the enemy". You thought it was bad when Team Themis (HB Gary, Berico Technologies, and Palantir Technologies) teamed up to try to 'neutralize' a couple of reporters, at the behest of the Department of Justice in collusion with Bank of America? Whose side do you think the government is on?

That is the tip of the iceberg. The tip of the fucking iceberg.

Linux is about to get whacked. A big time, world wide whacking. The hedge funds, the bond holders, the pension fund managers, the sovereign wealth funds, a cotiere of ideological capitalist zealots, vast minions of IT 'professionals' whose lifeblood depends on the inefficiency, stupidity, and corruption of large proprietary IT contracts, the milquetoast bureaucrats whose only joy in life are the kickbacks they get from their vendors, and the thrill they feel as they decide to use a shitty IT system over the protests of ten thousand users? These forces they will all come together against their common enemy.

You.

And your freedom.

If you read between the lines... (1)

Aldenissin (976329) | more than 3 years ago | (#35727250)

I think he was saying that we should move on and not focus on giving the power to Microsoft that they now no longer deserve. Energy would be better focused elsewhere and on other obstacles and enemies. They won't win, have been beaten, and the year of the Linux desktop is coming, unless something else that is libre happens first.

As ye sow so shall ye reap (1, Insightful)

SplashMyBandit (1543257) | more than 3 years ago | (#35727302)

The community has long memories and it will take a very long time (if ever) for the community to forgive or forget the anti-social behavior of Microsoft (I won't detail all the things it has done, but there is no shortage, eg subvert ISO etc etc). This is a somewhat of a shame since there appear to be a great many dedicated, talented and generous individuals (we remember the nice cake for Firefox too) who wrestle with their own corporate idiocy and avaricious management.

I hope this is a lesson for all companies and individuals in power (although it's not like they're enlightened enough to read Slashdot) that it is far harder to unwind the damage you do than to compete hard but operate ethically in the first place.

Wow, amazing analysis.... (2)

HerculesMO (693085) | more than 3 years ago | (#35727312)

Whatever happened for using the best tool for the job? I am happy to deploy Apache webservers when I'm running some Java stuff, just as happily as I deploy IIS servers for .NET stuff.

The problem is with this guy, and legions of others, is that they look at using one versus another as important. Enterprises don't. They look at what they want to accomplish, look at the TCO, look at how long it takes to get there, and make a decision. Yea, for enterprise deployment of things that means they run Windows, Active Directory, and related print/file/etc services. Linux might be out there as a fileshare or FTP or something, but it's used strategically.

In terms of the consumer device area well, Linux is free and having a bajillion shitty devices doesn't mean that it has "won". Look at the problems on Android right now. Granted, Windows Phone isn't doing well either but there are distinct benefits with going with one over the other. I'll let the consumer decide. And what's really winning? Apple, as closed source and proprietary a company as you can get.

So seriously if you are comparing Linux and Windows and hoping that one "wins", you can probably bet that you'll never be in the position to influence the decision. As I said, enterprises choose what makes sense, and they don't give a shit if it's closed, open, proprietary, etc... they have dollars on the line, and time counts heartily.

Only exception is the desktop? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35727382)

Well, thus far Linux isn't quite dominating the tablet market.
We'll see what the next year brings, but "desktop" isn't the only exception.

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