Beta

×

Welcome to the Slashdot Beta site -- learn more here. Use the link in the footer or click here to return to the Classic version of Slashdot.

Thank you!

Before you choose to head back to the Classic look of the site, we'd appreciate it if you share your thoughts on the Beta; your feedback is what drives our ongoing development.

Beta is different and we value you taking the time to try it out. Please take a look at the changes we've made in Beta and  learn more about it. Thanks for reading, and for making the site better!

Windows 8 Early Build Hints At Apple, WebOS Competitor - EWeek

Roblimo posted more than 3 years ago | from the always-steal-ideas-from-your-most-creative-competitors dept.

Windows 375

Microsoft's next Windows could be a cross-platform OS in the style of Apple's iOS or Hewlett-Packard's webOS, if supposed early builds are to be believed... "Bloggers Rafael Rivera and Paul Thurrott, in a series of April postings on Rivera’s Within Windows blog, have described the various features of what they claim is an early build of Windows 8: an Office-style ribbon integrated into Windows Explorer, complete with tools for viewing libraries, manipulating images and managing drive assets; an unlock screen that harkens to the 'Metro' design style already present in Windows Phone 7; an 'immersive' user interface and a built-in PDF reader they call 'Modern Reader.'"

cancel ×

375 comments

Sorry! There are no comments related to the filter you selected.

Why? (1, Troll)

linux_geek_germany (1079711) | more than 3 years ago | (#35769306)

They should rather concentrate on improving the core OS in my opinion. Why would I want to manipulate images or read PDFs with crap software from MS...

Re:Why? (1)

wolverine1999 (126497) | more than 3 years ago | (#35769348)

The core OS will be unix-based if it's to be Apple style...

Or.. Linux-based?

Re:Why? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35769596)

Microsoft will never make a Linux-based Windows. The main reason being that they will lose one of the main things that they have going for them: Applications. If they were to completely rewrite their OS (which they would have to do to make it unix-like) they would loose all compatibility with old software. Besides this, Microsoft hates Linux and would never try to emulate it.

Re:Why? (1)

Lanteran (1883836) | more than 3 years ago | (#35769628)

Except for the fact that they have access to, wait for it... the source code to windows. They could easily (or perhaps with some difficulty) write a version of wine with 100% or near about 100% compatibility. I mean look how well the people at wine did through simple reverse engineering, 95% support of directx9!

Re:Why? (5, Funny)

davester666 (731373) | more than 3 years ago | (#35769650)

Yeah, Wine just needs to add a couple more crashing bugs, and maybe a few exploits and they could get to 100% compatibility!

Re:Why? (2)

jimicus (737525) | more than 3 years ago | (#35769844)

What would be the point? The kernel for Windows is perfectly stable, barring shitty drivers.

The UI may occasionally do odd things, but that's true of any OS. As far as the average enduser is concerned, it doesn't really matter two hoots if the underlying OS is still functioning if you can't interact with it.

Re:Why? (5, Insightful)

Spaseboy (185521) | more than 3 years ago | (#35769354)

Remember that early builds from MS mean nothing. In the end it will just be Windows 7 with no 32-bit backwards compatibility and a new skin.

Re:Why? (5, Insightful)

rtfa-troll (1340807) | more than 3 years ago | (#35769610)

Remember that early builds from MS mean nothing.

Right; this is crucial to remember. The reason for any information release at this point is to block MS partners who are thinking of becoming HP partners. MS will now be feeding this into their friends in your company and whenever someone points out what WebOS can do that person will say "if we just wait six months MS will do the same thing and we won't need to migrate".

Oh; and there will be 32 bit backwards compatibility; even if it's just through an integrated transparent hypervisor. Trust me.

If you want to adopt WebOS, get your project going now. Make serious progress as a "demo", "test environment" etc. If asked about the new MS product just say that this will give your organization a chance to prepare. Get real customers doing real things. At the point where Microsoft backs out or fails to deliver what your customers need, that is the point to make it really official.

Re:Why? (1)

jimicus (737525) | more than 3 years ago | (#35769862)

No chance Microsoft will ditch backwards compatibility. The absolute most they'd do is ditch it in the core OS and implement it in the form of an integrated virtual machine running in userland, which IIRC is broadly what they do in recent versions anyhow.

Re:Why? (0)

hairyfeet (841228) | more than 3 years ago | (#35769454)

I have to agree though I'm not surprised. Never in the history of the company have they managed to come out with two decent products in a row, and Windows 7 is awesome so we frankly shouldn't be surprised that MSFT is completely cocking up Windows 8. Hopefully it will bomb like Vista and then maybe they'll stop listening to the talking heads that are always pushing the new hotness (remember how they said that we'll all be using Netbooks?) and focus on the core OS business which MAKES THEM MONEY.

And I further re-propose that the MSFT logo be changed to reflect the current situation. Old Gates has been retired for years, the MSFT Borg is old and stale. For the new logo I propose Ballmer sticking his tongue out with an "I Heart Apple!" beanie on his head, since his current modus operandi seems to be trying to ape every single move they make, even when it makes NO sense for the company! I can just imagine him trying to pep up the troops..."We're gonna make a mobile phone OS and bring it to the desktop which will make us as cool as Apple! Yes it will! it really will! STOP LAUGHING AT ME!!!"

Just when I thought Bozo the used car salesman Ballmer might have actually earned keeping his job by bringing out Windows 7 nope, still a dumbass. Can someone fire him pretty please? Oh and to the Apple guys: A heartfelt apology is in order, we LMAO at you when the Pepsi guy was running the company you depended on into the ground, and now that the shoe is on the other foot it really isn't very funny. So sorry about all the lame Apple jokes, we learned our lesson...Can we have Gates back now? Please?

Re:Why? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35769604)

Hmm, no two decent products in a row, let me think... I only began at the time of DOS 6 and Win 3.11 so I shall start there:

Win 3.11: Decent for its time
Win 95: I didn't really like it (I mean, this start button and stuff instead of the program manager) but I think this was their breakthrough so it must have been great to some people...
Win 98: So many BSODs, their first really sucky OS
Win 2K: Decent
Win Me: Crappy from what I hear, never used it though
Win XP: Passable
Win Vista: Crappy from what I hear, never used it though
Win 7: Looks nice, never used it though.

Hmm. yeah, you might be right about never two decent releases in a row...

Re:Why? (2)

DAldredge (2353) | more than 3 years ago | (#35769456)

In what areas do you think the core OS should be improved?

Re:Why? (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35769544)

Scalability

Modularity

Platform support

Window management features

The abomination that is the start menu

Speed

Decoupling of the GUI from the os

And on and on

Re:Why? (2)

Narcocide (102829) | more than 3 years ago | (#35769606)

Stability

Security

Interoperability

Add a *real* command shell ...

Re:Why? (1)

DAldredge (2353) | more than 3 years ago | (#35769712)

How do I make it unstable?

What do you recommend to make it more secure?

Interoperability?  So broad a term as to be meaningless.

"real" command shell?  You mean like PowerShell?

Re:Why? (4, Insightful)

Junta (36770) | more than 3 years ago | (#35769782)

Stability

I can't honestly complain any more. They have even go so far as a video driver crash being less fatal for them than Linux. Linux may be able to survive a video driver crash, but anything on the UI dies, and that's not the case for MS. They have made a lot of improvements here.

Security

They have managed to make most people stop running as administrator, with a 'sudo-like' implementation. Now I've heard mumblings about that being trivial to bypass (though I haven't seen it), which would be a critical flaw. They don't open a lot of services by default anymore. Largely any insecure behavior is non-default and the fault of users (either enabling features or misusing them). Their NTLM hashes they store on disk are pitifully weak, which could be improved, but only relevant if that is attacked. NTLM was/is a horribly insecure network authentication, but AD is a valid Kerberos approach and NTLM *shouldn't* be used if MS is used as intended. Overall, their security isn't bad.

command shell

I will say PowerShell is an improvement. I do think it borders on counterproductive pride as to why they don't have anything quite as simple as plain-ol-bash. Also, why they don't implement SSH for a nice common protocol instead of their WMI crap for remote command execution.

Re:Why? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35769864)

Stability

Security

Interoperability

Add a *real* command shell ...

Have you used Win7? Its stability is as good as OSX or Linux distros. Security is a big subject. The winners of pwn2own claims Windows now does have better security measures than fx OSX, but is clearly attacked more. Interoperability - what is lacking? And on command shell, what in your opinion isn't *real* about PowerShell v2?

Re:Why? (3, Insightful)

Junta (36770) | more than 3 years ago | (#35769736)

So I'm a linux person through and through, but it's about the flexibility the platform offers, and I no longer feel justified in criticizing MS over the 'basics' with their improvements.

scalability

If you refer to the OS running on enough cores, I haven't heard of a technical limitation. I think they do have various arbitrary limits on their licensing, but the software developers have done the required work. Maybe someone can point out scheduling deficiencies or poor placement decisions in a NUMA architecture, but I've not heard that. Keep in mind this discussion is on the desktop, which probably will be non-numa and no more than 6 or 8 cores.

Modularity

They used to be more modular in their install, but the sad reality is 99% of people couldn't be arsed to think about it, so the default experience is less customizable. Even linux installers have trended toward skipping package selection. Other than that guess, it would need some specifics to understand exactly what you want.

Platform support

If you mean supporting other architectures (e.g. ARM), that was precisely one goal they already announced. I personally think this is a pointless endeavor for them unless they give some magical ability to run x86 binaries everywhere without horrible performance degredation. MS has tried repeatedly to support other architectures, but the reality is x86 is where the applications are and MS doesn't have a particularly special offering that people intrinsically want if not for the x86 applications.

Window management features

Ok, I'll give you that one of the big reasons I stay away from Windows is the relatively incapable window management stuff, but at the same time, I have to presume they think the features 'we' would want would confuse their main target market.

Speed

In my experience, I haven't seen anything particularly slow about Windows. This is probably one area I've never been able to complain except for disk IO due to Vista defaults that got toned down.

Decoupling of the GUI from the os

The only thing they would gain here is the ability to run an systems without any video chip, which they have no hope in hell of winning. If you refer to the ability to manage them via serial console *in addition* to video, they do have serial console support to do some basic things including starting CMD/PowerShell. Sure, we love our VTs on occasion, but a very small minority of people use them except when they *have* to. Perhaps inherent capability to ssh in and get cmd/powershell would be nice, but getting rid of the GUI on VGA console won't really win them anything in the market.

Re:Why? (4, Informative)

linux_geek_germany (1079711) | more than 3 years ago | (#35769600)

in 5 minutes the following comes to mind: performance, efficient usage of system resources, stability, file system, decouple GUI from core, decouple apps from core, simple remote access, get rid of the sick registry, customization, documentation, adhere to common open standards, lower hardware requirements, better modularization, remove unneeded services/bloatware, provide a powerful shell, enhance security/permission features, ...

I'm sure I can find a lot of other stuff that's wrong with windows when thinking about it...

Re:Why? (2, Informative)

DAldredge (2353) | more than 3 years ago | (#35769692)

performance - in what way is Windows 7/Server 2k8R2 slow?

efficient usage of system resources = How does 7/R2 fail to use systems resources in a efficient way?

stability - I can't seam to get my systems to have stability issues, how do I reproduce this?

file system - What is wrong with NTFS  as implemented by 7/R2?

decouple GUI from core - Has already been done.  Server Core

decouple apps from core - Which apps?

simple remote access - RDP and other methods are already built in.

get rid of the sick registry - In what way is it sick?

customization - In what ways?

documentation - What needs to be improved?

adhere to common open standards - Which standards?

lower hardware requirements - It can run on very expensive systems.  Exactly how low are you talking about?

better modularization - Explain this please.

remove unneeded services/bloatware - Which ones are you talking about?

provide a powerful shell - Powershell

enhance security/permission features - Example?

Re:Why? (0)

linux_geek_germany (1079711) | more than 3 years ago | (#35769750)

lmgtfy.com

Re:Why? (1)

DAldredge (2353) | more than 3 years ago | (#35769784)

So you don't really know.

Re:Why? (-1, Redundant)

linux_geek_germany (1079711) | more than 3 years ago | (#35769830)

No, I have work to do and do not have time to spend hours writing a concise summary what's wrong with Windows in detail. Information is freely available, taught at universities and/or indexed by Google.
Don't get me wrong - I'm not saying that all of these points are completely bad in Windows, but compare it to other OS's and regarding most of the items Windows is simply lacking behind - either by a small or a large margin.
MS simply doesn't care, because average Joe doesn't and they rather build fluffy stuff. Good, if you like it, but it is really ignorant to state that Windows is state-of-the-art regarding all things I mentioned, which is why I pointed you to Google.

Re:Why? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35769906)

What a fucking copout. If you aren't prepared to back up your claims, then don't make them in the first place.

Re:Why? (3, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35769826)

Server Core. Haha aha ha ha. Yeah, great. Now get a unix OS and see what a real headless/GUI-less system can do. It needs SSH, for secure remote login, remote file copying and remote command execution. Of course, somebody at Microsoft is right now programming a really shit set of updates for powershell to try and copy SSH, but they'll get it wrong, naturally.

Powershell is crap. The outrageously long commands they've created are a really bad joke, especially compared to the nice simple single-purpose commands of the Unix world.

The same hardware running OS X (hackintosh or Apple) tends to outlast Windows 7 in battery drain tests. I.e, Mac OS X does some basic stuff so much more efficiently that it translates in to lower power draw for the same tasks. Windows 7 needs to be more efficient.

The registry is crap, but it works. The WOW32 registry is a bad joke dreamed up by fools.

Search is crap. It often uses >1GB memory on a 4GB system and causes huge amounts of paging. This is probably the main reason that OS X is more energy efficient. I'm a programmer, and I've spent a lot of time researching where the memory goes on my systems, and I've come to the conclusion that Windows search is the culprit. It's just shit. Apart from that, it can NEVER seem to find stuff inside files in the filesystem -- at least not as well as spotlight.

I'll throw in a few others -- IIS, shit. MMC, shit. EventViewer, fucking hell, when did that get so slow? IE, shit, get it out of my default install, Run As user/administrator holy crap, that's bad - Windows /really/ needs a sudo clone now that the (sensible) default is to not run everything as admin. UAC is NOT sudo.

Final thing off the top of my head -- those stupid Windows 7 screen-edge 'gestures', the Aero Alt-Tab thing and the absolutely retarded shake-to-minimize-everything-else 'gesture'. If I could turn them off, it'd not be so bad, but I can't find out where to get rid of this intrusive 'feature creep/trying to add as many things to a checklist as possible' crap.

Re:Why? (0)

Blink Tag (944716) | more than 3 years ago | (#35769884)

performance - in what way is Windows 7/Server 2k8R2 slow?

Why don't we start with something as simple as the time it takes to wake from sleep? I can cook a meal and do the dishes in the amount of time it takes my Windows 7 desktop to wake up. Compare that with the almost instant on of my four-year-old MacBook and my iDevice. It's frustrating as hell.

Once that's figured out, how 'bout boot time and shutdown time?

Yes, Windows 7 is better at this than its predecessors, but it's still got a ways to go.

Re:Why? (0, Troll)

iamhassi (659463) | more than 3 years ago | (#35769492)

Agreed. Even with a fresh install Windows 7 crashes far more than Windows XP did, I have to tip-toe around what programs I open and how many I open. It's Windows 98 all over again.

Re:Why? (0, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35769554)

You must be a complete moron, stay the hell away from computers you idiot. My first windows 7 install ever was on my laptop when it came out and that install is still going strong with no problems at all. Don't blame microsoft because you are a dumbass who doesn't know how to use a computer.

Re:Why? (0)

imsabbel (611519) | more than 3 years ago | (#35769558)

Than your computer is defective.

Check your memory or hardrive. Else, update hardware drivers.

NO modern OS "just crashes".

Re:Why? (2, Interesting)

SpryGuy (206254) | more than 3 years ago | (#35769588)

That's certifiably false, regardless of your experiences. I'd wager you have some dodgy hardware (memory going bad?) or a really awful 3rd party driver.

Because Win7 is as rock solid an OS as I've seen out of MS, and it's many times more stable and solid than XP ever was or could be.

Your experience is an abberation, and clearly the OS is not at fault here, something else is. You're blaming the wrong thing.

What!!!! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35769666)

Replace your hard drive and\or memory. It is obviously defective.

Re:Why? (1)

Undead Waffle (1447615) | more than 3 years ago | (#35769572)

They should rather concentrate on improving the core OS in my opinion. Why would I want to manipulate images or read PDFs with crap software from MS...

What you want doesn't matter. Microsoft makes deals with places like Best Buy to make sure Geek Squad sets up ignorant computer users with a Windows Live e-mail address, bing as the default search engine, etc.

This move is probably to prepare them to compete in the tablet market if it proves to be more than just a fad and to consolidate as much as possible between their different operating systems.

Re:Why? (0)

linux_geek_germany (1079711) | more than 3 years ago | (#35769652)

Gotta love the MS fanbois... Where am I trolling here? Do you really expect that MS will provide better software than Adobe for manipulating images or reading PDFs?! And why should the apps be coupled with the OS?

Re:Why? (2)

rabbit994 (686936) | more than 3 years ago | (#35769744)

Yea, Why would any OS maker do that? Apple doesn't include PDF Reader or iPhoto for editing images. Microsoft is breaking completely new ground here. /sarcasm

They are coupled with OS because people want them to be. PDFs have become so common that people expect their Operating system to read them and same thing with digital cameras. I would note that Microsoft already builds Photo editor called Windows Live Photo Gallery which does reasonable well for majority of people using digital cameras. People who need Photoshop will purchase it and majority will be happy with Live Photo Gallery.

Re:Why? (1)

linux_geek_germany (1079711) | more than 3 years ago | (#35769806)

1. It's an abuse of their OS quasi-monopoly in my opinion and hurts the free competition.
2. They could very well run into legal trouble (cf. Internet Explorer/Windows bundle).
3. I'd guess that they will again couple these apps quite tightly with their OS. Let's wait how good a third-party app will integrate...

App X, Ribbons, and hogwash (2, Interesting)

Iamthecheese (1264298) | more than 3 years ago | (#35769320)

TFA is full of empty speculation and even if Microsoft were trying to do this their extensive history of withholding key, drastic hardware control level features at the last minute argues against the idea they could carry it off. There will be no pan-fundatio Windows 8.0

Re:App X, Ribbons, and hogwash (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35769336)

So you argue against speculation with more speculation. Nice.

Re:App X, Ribbons, and hogwash (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35769508)

So you argue against speculation with more speculation. Nice.

You mean "fitting", I'm sure.

Re:App X, Ribbons, and hogwash (1)

ColdWetDog (752185) | more than 3 years ago | (#35769458)

"Pan-fundatio"? That even confused Google.

Re:App X, Ribbons, and hogwash (1)

marcello_dl (667940) | more than 3 years ago | (#35769618)

pan-FUDatio is what first come to mind on a MS thread.

Re:App X, Ribbons, and hogwash (1)

jez9999 (618189) | more than 3 years ago | (#35769648)

Perhaps:
pan- : across
fundatio : fundamentalists?

So, 'across multiple fundamentalist things' (presumably referring to the various fanatical proponents of their respective platforms)

Re:App X, Ribbons, and hogwash (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35769746)

"fundatio" is the Latin root of "foundation". Across foundation? Or maybe bread foundation? Hmm, that sounds tasty.

Preparing for the previous war (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35769332)

By the time Windows 8 comes out, the rest of the market will ahve moved on. Again.

Flaming (3, Interesting)

Jorl17 (1716772) | more than 3 years ago | (#35769342)

I be flaming.

Microsoft should just keep pushing good stability features for their crappy OS. Every single OS release is an "oh we got this new x and that new y (both available in other decent OS for ages, except for the occasional innovation)" moment, instead of a "We have increased security and enabled you to fully control your computer. If you are not a computer expert, this OS is great, as it always has been, but if you are a computer expert, then now we have given you the ability to fully manipulate your computer" kind of thing. That's what Windows should do -- add powerusers to their marketshare (I mean real powerusers). Also, it isn't FLOSS (I just had to troll :D)

Re:Flaming (4, Insightful)

Cinder6 (894572) | more than 3 years ago | (#35769682)

Microsoft is usually damned if they do, damned if they don't. Let's say they added multiple desktop support, a la every other worthwhile OS. Everyone would laugh at MS for being late to the party. If they don't add it, then people will mock them for its omission.

I use a Mac and Win 7. There are some damn nice features that 7 has I wish my Mac would copy. Namely: snap to sides. Unfortunately, I doubt that Apple will ever add this, because they seem to refuse to admit to anyone else ever having a good idea. (We did get Spaces eventually, though, so perhaps there is hope.) I also really enjoy how the new start menu works. It's sort of an enhanced dock with the ability to preview and close windows without having to open them. Apple already does have similar functionality (sans the closing windows bit, and it's a little more cumbersome), but there are aspects of the Windows implementation that I prefer.

You could look at how Apple handled Snow Leopard. For the most part, it was an "under the hood" update, which is basically what you're asking for. And yet, even though it technically did bring a lot of new features, there were a lot of people who were mad at Apple for producing a "weak" update, even though it only cost $30.

You just can't please everyone.

Re:Flaming (1)

Jorl17 (1716772) | more than 3 years ago | (#35769866)

Or anyone, for their matter.

Re:Flaming (1)

nxtw (866177) | more than 3 years ago | (#35769868)

Microsoft should just keep pushing good stability features for their crappy OS. Every single OS release is an "oh we got this new x and that new y (both available in other decent OS for ages, except for the occasional innovation)" moment

The Windows 7 graphics stack is still more capable than anything in Linux when it comes to features like switching between GPUs and replacing GPU drivers without closing programs, logging out, or rebooting. This feature greatly reduces the impact of graphics driver crashes, as the graphics driver can be restarted without losing any work, and reduces power usage on laptops with discrete GPUs, as low-power integrated graphics can be used when high-power graphics are not needed.

The audio system is also more stable and more capable than Linux's.

Linux can't get video and audio working with the features and stability seen in Windows or Mac OS X in the mid 00s, let alone today.

That's what Windows should do -- add powerusers to their marketshare (I mean real powerusers).

Of course we all know that No true power user [wikipedia.org] would use Windows right now, right?

wtf summary...? (1)

Jugalator (259273) | more than 3 years ago | (#35769350)

if supposed early builds are to be believed... "Bloggers Rafael Rivera and Paul Thurrott, in a series of April postings on Rivera’s Within Windows blog, have described the various features of what they claim is an early build of Windows 8: an Office-style ribbon integrated into Windows Explorer, complete with tools for viewing libraries, manipulating images and managing drive assets; an unlock screen that harkens to the 'Metro' design style already present in Windows Phone 7; an 'immersive' user interface and a built-in PDF reader they call 'Modern Reader.'"

Northing here is about why it should be a cross-platform OS.

I may be kind of drunk right now, but I sure know when I read a bad summary!

Re:wtf summary...? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35769478)

Platform has a lot of meanings.

By the standard that Windows 7 runs on X86/AMD64 and Server 2008 runs on IA-64, it can be argued today that Windows is multi-platform.

By "multi-platform", I believe the writer is trying to express the difference between a laptop or desktop OS running with an Intel chip, and a tablet or phone running with ARM. I'll agree that it's an inelegant way of expressing it, but those are two hardware platforms.

Re:wtf summary...? (1)

MurukeshM (1901690) | more than 3 years ago | (#35769542)

There's something bit further down about AppX, which is used for development in WP7, being used to mike W8's PDF viewer. Hence the cross-platform thing.

Re:wtf summary...? (1)

SpryGuy (206254) | more than 3 years ago | (#35769608)

Sounds like the goal is to provide the ability to write a game once and it'll run on WIndows desktops and laptops, the XBox console, and their phone OS.

Which is almost doable right now, but I guess they hope to broaden the class of apps with which this is possible, and lessen the differences between these various platforms.

Re:wtf summary...? (2)

Blink Tag (944716) | more than 3 years ago | (#35769900)

Sounds like the goal is to provide the ability to write a game once and it'll run on WIndows desktops and laptops, the XBox console, and their phone OS.

Wait ... you're saying their new OS will allow you to write code once for both desktops AND laptops if both run Windows? No way! That would be so cool .....

[/snark]

Change for change sake (0, Offtopic)

Wowsers (1151731) | more than 3 years ago | (#35769360)

More changes for changes sake. I use Linux but I had to buy Win7 for testing. It is even more annoying than WinXP in so far as something small as the file manager in Win7. You can select the files, it tells you how many you selected, but it no longer says how many MB / GB of files you selected. It's stupid little things that Microsoft have take away that have made Win7 even more maddening for ex-WinXP users.

Why can't Microsoft just fix Windows first then worry about everything else?

I am glad I have a choice and stick with Linux and KDE4.

Different from mine (4, Informative)

MasterOfGoingFaster (922862) | more than 3 years ago | (#35769396)

It is even more annoying than WinXP in so far as something small as the file manager in Win7. You can select the files, it tells you how many you selected, but it no longer says how many MB / GB of files you selected.

Odd - mine shows the size of the selected files at the bottom. I'm running Win 7-64bit Ultimate.

Re:Different from mine (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35769428)

Yep, same here. I'm sure he just didn't see it in the exact same spot it is in XP and decided it was horrible, refusing to even try to learn anything.

Re:Different from mine (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35769430)

ditto

Re:Change for change sake (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35769410)

I am glad I have a choice and stick with Linux and KDE4.

Yeah, because KDE4 NEVER had any problems...

Re:Change for change sake (1, Insightful)

Rockoon (1252108) | more than 3 years ago | (#35769450)

It works for me.. it works for the other guy.. it must be something specific to your situation, and I think I know what it is...
Clearly you are experiencing the notorious PEBKAC bug.

Win7/64 Home Premium:

6 items selected Size: 369KB
Date created: 1/7/2011 7:25 PM - 2/26/2011 2:04 PM

Re:Change for change sake (4, Informative)

imsabbel (611519) | more than 3 years ago | (#35769580)

If you select more than 20 items, size does no longer appear.

Its apperantly for performance reasons. The same reason why it does no longer show the size of the curren directly in the status bar.

That is for me the only thing i hate on W7. And its so useless a restriction, too.

Re:Change for change sake (2, Informative)

BonquiquiShiquavius (1598579) | more than 3 years ago | (#35769852)

If you select more than 20 items, size does no longer appear.

Technically correct, except you forgot to mention that a link then appears, which you can click to "Show Details". The total size then appears.

Its apperantly for performance reasons.

Lemme guess...if MS had allowed you select 20+ objects, requiring a few seconds each time to calculate the total size each time you did that, you would be the one screaming how slow and laggy W7 is. Some people you just can't please...especially the ones who have decided to hate you no matter what you do.

Re:Change for change sake (1)

fotbr (855184) | more than 3 years ago | (#35769760)

It fails if one of the items you select is a "shortcut" or "internet shortcut".

Works for me (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35769510)

Just tested this on 32-bit Windows 7 -- it does indeed tell you the total size of files that you selected.

Re:Change for change sake (1)

kdsible (2019794) | more than 3 years ago | (#35769526)

I think Wowsers meant "folder" not files. The stupid things i hate are hiding RUN and Network. I suppose they are trying to move towards a smoother presentation.

PDF? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35769370)

Is this outdated, insecure format still in use? I hope that much modern and better open XPS format will supersede PDF.

Re:PDF? (1)

macs4all (973270) | more than 3 years ago | (#35769514)

Is this outdated, insecure format still in use? I hope that much modern and better open XPS format will supersede PDF.

That was meant as a joke, right?

It isn't PDF that is inherently insecure; it's just ADOBE's implementation of the PDF spec that is wildly insecure.

So... (1, Insightful)

93 Escort Wagon (326346) | more than 3 years ago | (#35769380)

... basically, according to Thurrott and Rivera, Microsoft's "vision of the future of Windows" is - OS X?

Re:So... (2)

the linux geek (799780) | more than 3 years ago | (#35769452)

How did you get to that conclusion? Does OS X have a tablet mode similar to Windows Phone 7's UI, or a ribbon interface?

What a strange troll...

Re:So... (1)

kdsible (2019794) | more than 3 years ago | (#35769568)

Thats not so far fetched MS. Windows has come a long way, OSX has definitely influenced MS design.

Trying to be unique yet providing an equal or greater experience. COPY them if you can't beat them. Now thats MS history.

Re:So... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35769524)

Microsoft's "vision of the future of Windows" is - OS X?

If you want a badly designed clusterfuck of an OS, you don't need to wait for them to finish copying OSX. Any of their OS's will do. The vividly colored default UI (theme) of todays MS Windows as mis-matched, unappealing visual puke is a fine metaphor for what's going on with their OS in general.

Re:So... (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35769566)

... basically, according to Thurrott and Rivera, Microsoft's "vision of the future of Windows" is - OS X?

And this is a shock how? Vista was an OS Tiger knock off. It was one of my biggest complaints about Vista. I actually likely XP better than Mac for graphics work but Vista adopted the worst of OSX and ignore the cool things it does. Microsoft has been copying Apple in some ways all the way back to the first Windows release. I just wish they'd copy the cool parts and leave the annoying parts alone. Back ups and drive partitioning a chimp can do in Mac but they are still a pain in Windows. The one thing OSX blows Windows away in is making it all about the software and not the OS. If you want to tinker switch to Linux. I'm into software and not BS about my OS can beat up your OS. Other than the updates which are pretty seamless in Mac I rarely deal with the OS where as it's still a constant pain on my Windows machines. If fixing Windows means becoming more like Mac then the war is over and Mac has won.

Re:So... (1)

Servaas (1050156) | more than 3 years ago | (#35769674)

If you can't install Windows 7 on a modern computer you really are over your head here and should travel back to 2011. Windows doesn't need fixing. Windows won. Even Jobs admitted that years ago.

Dear GOD no! (0, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35769382)

Office-style ribbon integrated into Windows Explorer

If it has this, it can get the hell out.
RIBBON IS AWFUL.

They say they created this crapfest of a UI for touchscreens, yet most of the stuff in it tends to be a clusterfuck anyway!
Not only that, it is usually inconsistent as well. Huge buttons for single features, like Bold, but then they add complex features in to tiny little buttons for god knows what reason.
No, an IDIOT designed Ribbon, then used that as an excuse for the huge stupid looking buttons.

Hopefully they will still allow for classic Windows theme as well, the one they added in Vista was terrible. The one they added in XP was terrible.
I don't want silly shiny buttons for the sake of being shiny. I don't want to use my god damn GPU to minimize a window.
Interfaces aren't more useful when they are constantly animating like in EVERY FILM EVER, it gets annoying real fast, more so when the interface has deliberate slowdowns for "aesthetics". No, just NO!
If nobody knows what I am talking of, I mean menus having delays because ~instant changes are daunting to people~. (not even joking, it is a paraphrase, but that was one reason)

Hopefully they got rid of whatever idiot designed the UI for Vis7a, they never had a damn clue.
They couldn't decide between touchscreen and desktop.
Maybe they should have TWO separate UI settings for both and stop crippling either of them. Touchscreen UIs are anti-desktop friendly, and vice versa. (unless your eyes are made of melons and you need a window in front of your eyes in order to see anything, in which case I would suggest laser surgery since it is really cheap now, safe, and works)

Re:Dear GOD no! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35769426)

Um, you know the basic ui in windows is kinda configurable right? Not like X configurable, but still..

i hate ribbon (4, Insightful)

Nadaka (224565) | more than 3 years ago | (#35769392)

It is the most terrible difficult and unintuitive development in ui I have ever seen. Give me my damn menu's back, he'll I would prefer vi over ribbons.

Re:i hate ribbon (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35769496)

Couldn't agree more. We have the ribbon for the sole facts that it subjectively looks cool to whatever focus group Ms uses to come up with this crap and it's different. Of course, the fact that it is different is because it is a stupid nonintuitive idea for a menu paradigm is lost on the marketeers at microsoft. When OSS copies this abomination, a sad day we will have.

Re:i hate ribbon (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35769538)

Have you taken into account that the reason you don't like the ribbon interface is BECAUSE it is different? Humans really suck at change - if we're used to something, we don't want to see it changed, even if that change is for the better. My background is HCI and, when the ribbon came out, I performed a study for my company on the use of the ribbon paradigm. You are correct in one sense - those individuals not familiar with the ribbon (but are familiar with menus) have a tougher time moving to the ribbon. In most cases, this actually tends to be intermediate to power users. Those users are so attuned to where things are (even if they don't make sense) that it becomes a change they can't get past.

However, people who are not as computer savvy and are not as familiar with the menu system, quickly pick it up and are much more comfortable performing various tasks.

So, yes, I agree that the ribbon represents change and change can be difficult. But, I firmly believe that Microsoft has come up with something better, despite the "differetness" of it.

Re:i hate ribbon (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35769646)

Have you taken into account that the reason you don't like the ribbon interface is BECAUSE it is different?

Wow, I feel almost honored to have caught the attention of such a pretentious astroturfing shill. It probably costed Ms something like 50 cents or so to pay you to respond to me? Condescending and presuming is a tad tired and boring though.

However, people who are not as computer savvy and are not as familiar with the menu system, quickly pick it up and are much more comfortable performing various tasks.

Bull. The size and prominence of buttons and the tabs on the ribbon are way too arbitrary to be purposeful for anything other than pure aesthetics. The definition of form over function. A traditional menu and configurable toolbar are vastly superior.

Re:i hate ribbon (1)

John Allsup (987) | more than 3 years ago | (#35769722)

With the previous menubar system we could do alt key shortcuts with visual feedback as to where our keystrokes went. MS has destroyed this with the ribbon. Toolbars were easy to customise and this could be done via macros when necessary, again MS has messed this up. You cannot use the 'difference' argument as a defence against the fact that a number of great features of what was Office 2003's (and before's) interface have been removed in the name of progress. The ribbon may improve somethings but it should have been kept in MS's labs until they came up with a better 'different' way of doing things.

Indeed (3, Insightful)

Kupfernigk (1190345) | more than 3 years ago | (#35769556)

As far as I can see the sole purpose of the ribbon is to keep all the training companies that train office workers on Microsoft products happy, and to make it harder to change to Open Office for people used to the ribbon.

But this is the company that has made Wordpad an unusably over-complex piece of garbage - and I say that even though Windows 7 is a vast improvement over XP; installed on my laptop because XP was giving up with too many programs open, and now all those programs run nicely together.

Re:i hate ribbon (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35769576)

Ribbons = Glorified Tabs

Re:i hate ribbon (1)

John Allsup (987) | more than 3 years ago | (#35769690)

Office used to be better on Windows until MS came out with their flouncy bouncy ribbon thing. On the mac they weren't able to get rid of the menu bar and so the mac version has the best of both worlds while the Windows version has the worst. It seem MS may be trying to spread this mistake through the rest of the OS.

Re:i hate ribbon (2)

krenaud (1058876) | more than 3 years ago | (#35769812)

I've used every Word version since 3.0 for DOS and I think that the 2007/2010 interface is the best yet. It requires some relearning, but one that hump is done it is easier to use. Learning keyboard shortcuts is easier - just press ALT and the key combinations light up and if you are used to ALT-whatever+Letter menu shortcuts from 2003 and earlier they still work.

Paul Thurott?!? Hahahahaha!!! (0)

macs4all (973270) | more than 3 years ago | (#35769482)

Read what this popular blogger [google.com] has repeatedly pointed out about Paul Thurott's talents and track record.

What a tool.

Re:Paul Thurott?!? Hahahahaha!!! (2)

thomst (1640045) | more than 3 years ago | (#35769824)

Read what this popular blogger [google.com] has repeatedly pointed out about Paul Thurott's talents and track record.

What a tool.

What I read (the top result in the Goggle search string you provided) was nothing more than an extended ad hominem rant against Thurott by an unabashed Apple fanboy. It's entirely opinion-based, utterly biased, and highly inflammatory - and includes absolutely NOTHING in the way of actual evidence that Thurott is anything other than a Microsoft fanboy.

So, in sum, "Boo for the other team's cheerleaders."

Mind you, I am in no way, shape, or form defending or promoting Thurott here. Instead, I am merely and exclusively commenting on the "popular blogger" whose critcisms you seem to think are so compelling. They're not. His observations are opaquely colored with his own bias, and COMPLETELY unobjective.

"The problem with pissing contests is that everybody gets wet, and everybody smells bad afterward."

Ribbon... but why? (1)

DavidR1991 (1047748) | more than 3 years ago | (#35769518)

I think the ribbon is O-K. It's not fantastic (not the amazing revolution MS seems to think it is) but it's usable. I think it works OK in Office 07 at least. But... why in explorer? Explorer isn't complex enough to justify it. Office warranted it because it has oodles of menus and features. Explorer is comparatively simple though, which makes me think this is just overkill.

Re:Ribbon... but why? (1)

Servaas (1050156) | more than 3 years ago | (#35769694)

I havent seen any screen shots of both Office 07 or Win 8 but do the ribbons replace the right context menu? So you need only one finger...

I can't wait for Windows 8! (1)

hsmith (818216) | more than 3 years ago | (#35769540)

Please, give me oversized text that stretches off the screen so I can't read it - such a great feature of WM7!

Re:I can't wait for Windows 8! (1)

Kral_Blbec (1201285) | more than 3 years ago | (#35769638)

Sounds like someone adjusted the font dpi and doesn't know how to change it back...

integrated software functionality (1)

lkcl (517947) | more than 3 years ago | (#35769546)

the list of functionality sounds like a perfect recipe for absolutely every major software company under the sun to begin anti-trust lawsuits, to me. oh, and patent infringement cases, too...

Re:integrated software functionality (1)

zigmeister (1281432) | more than 3 years ago | (#35769832)

Exactly. My personal crystal ball says: eventually windows will be surpassed as on OS by one that does everything out of the box without the user dicking around on the net installing adobe, firefox etc. MS can never do this for fear of anti-trust suits, it's not like they have the functionality sitting around they can push as an update so when it happens they'll be 3 years behind and playing catchup. After that we'll suddenly realize how we screwed them over. I don't have a particular affinity for the company but ya... Also that's to say nothing of whether or not MS would've ever pulled their head out of their ass and made this kinda stuff happen regardless of lawsuits. I mean you have that many resources, income employees etc and you can't just make stuff happen seriously?

Last True Desktop Version (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35769550)

This will be the last version that resembles a desktop OS, expect future offerings to be some sort of virtualized cloud offering.

ribbon = rubbish (1)

backwardMechanic (959818) | more than 3 years ago | (#35769654)

Does anybody apart from Microsoft, actually think the ribbon is a good thing? I would consider removing it to be a feature.

Like OS X? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35769658)

Apple is able to do this because they have a very lean core, and can scale back to just the items necessary to customize each version of OS X to the device it is running on (phone, pad, computer). I get the feeling this is simply a tablet interface tacked on top of the full windows install? I'm sure MS will market this as having a "real" OS or similar, but seems like it would lead to either bad battery life or bad performance. They are actually doing some nice work on the WP7 OS based on Zune, why not extend that upstream to tablets instead?

The OS is becoming irrelevant (1)

elteck (874753) | more than 3 years ago | (#35769676)

Apple and Microsoft make us believe that the GUI defines the OS, oh well... I think the OS will become irrelevant. Why do so many computers still run an old system like XP? Because there's simply not enough need for "yet another great OS". It's the new hardware and slowly the newer software that drives the move to windows 7, while the recession slowed down investment in new hardware. But the time that you had all your information stored on a PC and maybe some backup drive, is becoming history. We don't want have our data and it's associated applications tight to one location. We want have it on the road, at home, everywhere. Which is why I think the "cloud computing" trend is real, and that means that the OS for many applications will become totally irrelevant.

If they want to stay relevant... (0)

mario_grgic (515333) | more than 3 years ago | (#35769688)

They should get on with the program and scrap the pile of shit they call Windows and build something around the UNIX kernel and run legacy apps in VM like they virtualize XP now.

UNIX has won for pretty much anything from phone to big iron servers and only people who don't know better still use Windows in this day and age and willingly pay licenses (for Windows, SQL server and development tools) to their direct competitor (Microsoft) to stay in business (yeah I know, it sounds really dumb). Meanwhile everyone else that matters in post Microsoft world uses open OSes, leveraging their investment is stable APIs, great free tools and go on about innovating with the only cost being hardware and (usually smarter) people.

Re:If they want to stay relevant... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35769774)

Blah blah blah. Predictable, tedious slashdot comment slating anything MS.

Also, patently untrue. Visual Studio anyone?

Re:If they want to stay relevant... (1)

rossjudson (97786) | more than 3 years ago | (#35769838)

Except for those people who like Mac, and don't mind paying to get a better product, right?

Re:If they want to stay relevant... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35769896)

Even if they wanted to, this will never happen. Too much third party software exists for their current platform for them to consider doing that. Sure, a VM solution might be fine in the business side of computing where someone could get by just running Office 2011 in that way, but for the consumer market, it just can't happen. Ever consider what would happen if you tried running Crysis 2 in a virtual machine? Probably nothing good. They could even try running separate business and consumer platforms like they used to, but considering the consolidated both of those when they released Windows XP, I don't see that in Microsoft's future.

Add in the fact that Microsoft has always pushed their own solutions over standard solutions, even if they aren't nearly as good as what is available (kinda like WINS, even though DNS is prioritized before WINS on their systems today).

As far as this supposed "market dominance" UNIX has in the server area of things, I believe that to be a myth. Unix gets popular use as a web server, some special applications where high scalability that a proprietary system can't offer, and that's pretty much it. Windows and its army of wizards work to uncomplicated many things that Unix makes more complicated than it needs to be (Active Directory is a good example of that).

Unless the open source world can pick up the slack that Microsoft keeps taught (consistency, support, etc.) I just don't see Microsoft and any of its solutions fading in the near future.

Interesting to see that they're fine with catch-up (2)

zullnero (833754) | more than 3 years ago | (#35769752)

Out of the gate, they're already behind. That is, if this isn't just some pathetic attempt by Microsoft to drum up some stock interest with a paid blogger doing a PR puff piece.

Both iOS and webOS have made a lot of strides over the past few years. A big part of how they do things is user experience...Microsoft gets too geekily technical about some details, and the fact is, those details aren't as popular with the wider population than they'd like to admit. It's been the same story since Microsoft first ventured into the mobile space years ago.

Personally, I really, really like how fast and accurate the built in search is on webOS. I know a lot of other guys who left the platform and came back because once you get the bug, it's hard to give up. Especially if you figure out how to really use the platform well. Instead of swiping and scrolling through silly little screenspace consuming icons, you pull out the keyboard, type a couple letters, and it'll give you contacts, apps, you can mod it to do a wikipedia lookup, imdb, whatever. It's pretty sweet. It's like taking all the best things about a CLI and all the best things of the standard GUI and putting them all together. That's something, to me, I can deal with using 2 year old hardware on a day to day basis when I know there's better hardware out there...and I could even get it for free. And unless my provider would let me install webOS on that other phone and all my apps work, I'm not going to switch hardware. I'll duct tape my first gen Pre together if it comes down to it, and if that doesn't work, I'd be spending plenty of time trying to make it work on other hardware.

The reason I say all that is that if you're releasing a new mobile OS, you aren't going to "get me" to give up my apps, my preferred workflow, my cash, just to switch if you're playing catch-up. Just because you're Microsoft or Apple or Google doesn't impress me. Its whether or not your stuff does what I want, and if your software can't do it like I want, then either you pay me to use your stuff, or give me some features I can't live without. And no, I'm not going to switch just to "get" with a paid third party app something I already have well-integrated and free on my current platform of choice. Plus, it's all got to work well with what I currently have, or it's not happening. Not only that, but I stopped writing software for Windows Mobile about 3 years ago. You know what I really liked about it? It was a fairly powerful (if not a little quirky) platform to code for. I like .NET. It's something that Microsoft did very well. Unfortunately, in their effort to "be more like the other guys", I feel like they're abandoning a lot of the consistency of development between Windows apps, Windows web applications, and Windows mobile applications. They're still using ".NET technologies" to do things, but the basic design philosophies and approaches are getting really scattered and confusing, while .NET itself keeps jumping all over the place in basic application design philosophy with each new incarnation. They really need to find a few basic approaches to developing applications for their platforms and stick with them. Unless I'm using Silverlight as my standard, out of the box presentation layer for desktop applications as well as web applications...and that's all I'm doing from now on, then fine. But pick one approach and stick with it, you know?

Midori/Singularity (1)

kangsterizer (1698322) | more than 3 years ago | (#35769786)

They should just make that work and release it :)

Load More Comments
Slashdot Login

Need an Account?

Forgot your password?
or Connect with...

Don't worry, we never post anything without your permission.

Submission Text Formatting Tips

We support a small subset of HTML, namely these tags:

  • b
  • i
  • p
  • br
  • a
  • ol
  • ul
  • li
  • dl
  • dt
  • dd
  • em
  • strong
  • tt
  • blockquote
  • div
  • quote
  • ecode

"ecode" can be used for code snippets, for example:

<ecode>    while(1) { do_something(); } </ecode>