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Are Computer Crooks Renting Out Your PC?

samzenpus posted more than 3 years ago | from the let-me-see-that-a-minute dept.

Crime 208

An anonymous reader writes "Brian Krebs recently posted an interesting piece looking at an invite-only service marketed on shadowy underground forums that lets crooks 'rent' or 'buy' access to individual botted PCs that can be used to tunnel traffic. The story looks at the mechanics of renting out bots, and the author traces some of the infected systems back to real businesses. From the post: 'The Limited; Santiam Memorial Hospital in Stayton, Ore.; Salem, Mass. based North Shore Medical Center; marketing communications firm McCann-Erickson Worldwide; and the Greater Reno-Tahoe Economic Development Authority.'"

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Are Computer Crooks Renting Out Your PC? (5, Funny)

WrongSizeGlass (838941) | more than 3 years ago | (#35775998)

No. I'm so busy surfing /. that I don't have any spare CPU cycles to rent out.

Re:Are Computer Crooks Renting Out Your PC? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35776092)

I'm going to rent my own pc from the crooks.
Plausible deny-ability for anything I do on it.

Re:Are Computer Crooks Renting Out Your PC? (4, Informative)

Tablizer (95088) | more than 3 years ago | (#35776434)

That "Web 2.0" /. interface indeed is a CPU hog, full of polling JavaScript. Fortunately, they still allow the old-style as an option.

Re:Are Computer Crooks Renting Out Your PC? (1)

shermo (1284310) | more than 3 years ago | (#35776592)

I can't help but wonder if they've noticed that I no longer mod stories since the remake and whether there's a significant number of people who are in the same boat.

Re:Are Computer Crooks Renting Out Your PC? (1)

socsoc (1116769) | more than 3 years ago | (#35776716)

I'm sure that they've noticed a single person, and his boat, have stopped modding. Just like voting with your wallet works to show retailers!

Re:Are Computer Crooks Renting Out Your PC? (1)

shermo (1284310) | more than 3 years ago | (#35776736)

In my defence it is a big boat

Re:Are Computer Crooks Renting Out Your PC? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35776892)

Really? Not even people you disagree with?

Are Computer Crooks Renting Out Your PC? (5, Informative)

1s44c (552956) | more than 3 years ago | (#35776020)

Are Computer Crooks Renting Out Your PC?

No, I don't run windows and I set it up right.

Re:Are Computer Crooks Renting Out Your PC? (3, Insightful)

rockfistus (1445481) | more than 3 years ago | (#35776040)

Oh god, here come the douche bag linux comments. If you can't secure a windows box enough to stop this sort of thing then yes, you might want to use an alternate OS. It ain't Windows' fault.

Re:Are Computer Crooks Renting Out Your PC? (3, Insightful)

1s44c (552956) | more than 3 years ago | (#35776068)

Oh god, here come the douche bag linux comments. If you can't secure a windows box enough to stop this sort of thing then yes, you might want to use an alternate OS. It ain't Windows' fault.

Actually it is window's fault that it's insecure by design. Sure you can work around the problems but it's not 100% effective. Adobe also deserves some of the blame and their flash nightmare is more or less the same on all OS's.

Re:Are Computer Crooks Renting Out Your PC? (4, Insightful)

fuzzyfuzzyfungus (1223518) | more than 3 years ago | (#35776132)

Don't forget Adobe Reader. I've lost count of the number of Reader security advisories that apply to basically every OS they release binaries for. It isn't often you see news of an exploit vector for Solaris; but Adobe manages it.

Re:Are Computer Crooks Renting Out Your PC? (2, Insightful)

Mashiki (184564) | more than 3 years ago | (#35776664)

Don't forget about java. I mean who was the genius who thought that code that's remote should be executable outside of a sandbox? Oh and .net too. Personally it seems like the entire software industry needs a swift kick in the face.

Re:Are Computer Crooks Renting Out Your PC? (3, Informative)

Nerdfest (867930) | more than 3 years ago | (#35777172)

I actually have an RSS feed [adobe.com] just for Adobe security updates. It's kind of sad.

Re:Are Computer Crooks Renting Out Your PC? (5, Funny)

PopeRatzo (965947) | more than 3 years ago | (#35776154)

Actually it is window's fault that it's insecure by design.

It's not so much that Linux is necessarily more secure, just that the botnets can't get their software to run on it. Something about not having the right drivers, is what I heard.

Yep, that's what I heard all right.

Oh, take it easy...

Re:Are Computer Crooks Renting Out Your PC? (1)

mrclisdue (1321513) | more than 3 years ago | (#35776326)

Perhaps they'll run on Linux if Wine is installed....

cheers

Re:Are Computer Crooks Renting Out Your PC? (0)

rockfistus (1445481) | more than 3 years ago | (#35777112)

lol, My karma has been down in the dumps just from making a few honest observations on Linux and Windows. Never ceases to amaze me. I'm a troll apparently... :P God how I despise the Linux cronies. Ok, Fine... You all win, I concede. Linux is perfect! Down with Windows! Burn M$! BURrrN!

Re:Are Computer Crooks Renting Out Your PC? (1)

PopeRatzo (965947) | more than 3 years ago | (#35777224)

Son, a bit of advice. If you want better Karma, complaining about your Karma is not the way to go.

It's that way in life and it's that way on Slashdot.

Look above. I made a nasty, if joking crack about Linux and didn't get modded down. You gotta learn how to talk to people. I realize this is something that is not stressed in CS programs at the local JuCo, but it's a skill that will pay off in the long run. Plus, really, not that many of the people with mod points here are operating system absolutists or cultists. You use what you use and everything has a trade-off. That's not to say they're all equally good or equally bad, but they're all equally not worth losing your mind over.

My guess is that you didn't get "modded down" because of any "honest observations". Most likely you were being a little bit of a dick about it, which usually will get you modded down unless you are very very skilled at being a dick in an interesting and entertaining way.

Re:Are Computer Crooks Renting Out Your PC? (0)

rockfistus (1445481) | more than 3 years ago | (#35777252)

I'm not your son. And I do just fine with people. And I AM a dick. But thanks for the passive aggressive "advice" Mr. Miyagi. You really burned my house to the ground by talking down at me while passing it off as my being my sensei, and "just trying to help....Son" Smoke another one. 420's coming up man!

Re:Are Computer Crooks Renting Out Your PC? (1)

cheekyjohnson (1873388) | more than 3 years ago | (#35776776)

"100% effective"? I doubt that anything is.

Let's compare Linux 2.6x KERNEL ONLY, vs. Win7 (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35776848)

See subject-line, & then figures/facts from SECUNIA.COM:

(Especially vs. this statement quoted from you next below)

"Actually it is window's fault that it's insecure by design." - by 1s44c (552956) on Sunday April 10, @05:20PM (#35776068)

In fact, I'll show you that Microsoft's ENTIRE ARRAY/FULL GAMUT of development for business (Office Suite, Database Server, Internet Server, Internet Browser, & Development Studio/IDE + Windows 7 itself) has LESS THAN 3x++ the known security issues, unpatched, that Linux 2.6, kernel only mind you, has - &, that # on Linux is more, & goes "up, Up, UP & AWAY...", especially once you toss on the rest of what comes with a Linux distro (e.g./i.e.-> Webbrowsers, GUI shells, Windows managers, & far more)...

---

Vulnerability Report: Microsoft Windows 7: (04/10/2011)

http://secunia.com/advisories/product/27467/?task=advisories [secunia.com]

Unpatched 10% (6 of 59 Secunia advisories)

---

AND, of those 6 vulnerabilities, yes... 3 are "remote". HOWEVER, they're:

1.) In subsystems (like FAX) NOT installed "by default" (means I don't use it here & most others won't either...)

2.) Have valid & EASY work-arounds (e.g. - mhtml bug & Ms' "FIX IT Tool" for it, gui easy...)

3.) Are caused/utilized by faulty 3rd party apps (e.g., & of ALL things? Apple stuff uses a known bugged API in Visual Studio, see above, triggers one, ITunes another, iirc, etc. but no other apps are KNOWN to - go figure, eh?).

4.) PLUS, "MS 'Patch Tuesday'" is only 2 days away now, actually less, & is patching 64 problems across ALL of their wares (meaning the holes here on Windows are soon just a bad memory too, not that they are, because they have easy & valid work-arounds for a lot of them!)

I.E.-> "NO PROBLEMO!"

---

Vulnerability Report: Microsoft Office 2010: (04/10/2011)

http://secunia.com/advisories/product/30529/?task=advisories [secunia.com]

Unpatched 0% (0 of 4 Secunia advisories)

---

Vulnerability Report: Microsoft SQL Server 2008: (04/10/2011)

http://secunia.com/advisories/product/21744/ [secunia.com]

Unpatched 0% (0 of 4 Secunia advisories)

---

Vulnerability Report: Microsoft Internet Information Services (IIS) 7.x: (04/10/2011)

http://secunia.com/advisories/product/17543/ [secunia.com]

Unpatched 0% (0 of 6 Secunia advisories)

---

Vulnerability Report: Microsoft Visual Studio 2010:(04/10/2011)

http://secunia.com/advisories/product/30853/?task=advisories [secunia.com]

Unpatched 17% (1 of 6 Secunia advisories)

(The single 1 here also, like Windows 7 above, has an EASY work-around, & thus? Again, "NO PROBLEMO"!)

---

Vulnerability Report: Microsoft Internet Explorer 9.x:
(04/10/2011)

http://secunia.com/advisories/product/34591/ [secunia.com]

Unpatched 0% (0 of 0 Secunia advisories)

---

Well - "Read 'em & WEEP", /.'s "Pro-*NIX crew"... & "argue w/ the #'s" & good luck: You'll NEED it!

APK

P.S.=> NOW - Here's Linux's "latest/greatest", next below... (complete with a REMOTE EXPLOIT TOO, no less, in the "ROSE" subsystem):

---

Vulnerability Report: Linux Kernel 2.6.x: (04/10/2011)

http://secunia.com/advisories/product/2719/?task=advisories [secunia.com]

Unpatched 7% (19 of 259 Secunia advisories)

---

LMAO - THAT? That's more than 3x as many as Windows 7 has that are unpatched, & I'd wager there aren't workarounds for them (or as many as MS has shown above, OR that will occur only 2 days from now, on "Microsoft 'Patch Tuesday'")...

Plus?

ROTFLMAO - AGAIN: THAT'S ONLY THE LINUX KERNEL MIND YOU, not the entire 'gamut/array' of what actually comes in a Linux distro that has (such as the attendant GUI, Windows managers, browsers, etc. that ship in distros too that have bugs, and yes, THEY DO) THAT ADDS EVEN MORE BUGS that COMPOUNDS THAT # EVEN MORE!

(It gets even WORSE when you toss on ANDROID (yes, it's a LINUX variant too), because it's being shredded on the security-front lately, unfortunately)

BOTTOM-LINE:

What this all comes down to, is all the "Pro-*NIX propoganda straight outta pravda" practically doesn't stand up very well against concrete, verifiable & visible facts now, does it? Nope... apk

Re:Let's compare Linux 2.6x KERNEL ONLY, vs. Win7 (0)

rockfistus (1445481) | more than 3 years ago | (#35777152)

Citation needed... :P Just kidding, but your post twisted my brain in a knot, and my eyes crossed. Still recovering. Because it can't possibly be true. Now that I'm a linux convert I'm going to have to mod you troll. Maybe just flamebait if your good. Windows 7 fucking rocks. Yeah, I said it. I never thought a version of Windows would come out that has been as solid as it is.... It's almost like Shock & Awe. But never the less... It's fucking true. All of the Linux cronies have been so busy defending there homebase that they haven't even tried Win7 I'd imagine. It......really......IS.....Solid! God damnit. Especially since I've installed service pack 1, I have had absolutely -zero- problems. The only problems I HAVE had with it in the beginning was it wanting to do the odd start-up repair, which I always skipped and it would start up normal. I'm going to say it again. Windows 7 is good. It's great. Last time I commented like this I was accused of working at McDonalds(?) so I imagine now I work as Microsoft right? No, I'm a person. With factual opinions. Believe it or not, I DO like linux. And even though I like it, I find it also to be a huge pain in the ass. I'm grateful that it exists. I have fun dicking around with it, it's another OS world for me to explore and hack around in. But Windows is my solid homeground. And on my parting note: Fuck Macs. :D

Re:Let's compare Linux 2.6x KERNEL ONLY, vs. Win7 (-1)

Alex Belits (437) | more than 3 years ago | (#35777246)

This is like all Microsoft shills' tactics superimposed on each other.

Die in a fire.

Re:Are Computer Crooks Renting Out Your PC? (2, Funny)

fuzzyfuzzyfungus (1223518) | more than 3 years ago | (#35776072)

Yo dog, I herd you like zero-days, so I put a zero day in your box so somebody else can compute while you compute...

Re:Are Computer Crooks Renting Out Your PC? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35776074)

No, here comes the "we don't use a defective and insecure by design operating system" comments.

Re:Are Computer Crooks Renting Out Your PC? (3, Interesting)

Gordonjcp (186804) | more than 3 years ago | (#35776082)

"Might want to use an alternate OS" because it's less bother to keep Linux secure than Windows?

That's only one of the reasons I use Linux. Why would I go out of my way to use an OS that takes extra work to secure? I'm sure there's a car analogy in there involving buying a Yugo with no doorlocks, or being given a Mercedes with central locking and an alarm already fitted, but I can't be bothered making it.

Re:Are Computer Crooks Renting Out Your PC? (4, Insightful)

Threni (635302) | more than 3 years ago | (#35776272)

Exactly. "Are Computer Crooks Renting Out Your Windows PC?" would be a better headline.

Re:Are Computer Crooks Renting Out Your PC? (1)

melikamp (631205) | more than 3 years ago | (#35776622)

This is trivially true, due to the nature of Microsoft.

For the applications (2)

sourcerror (1718066) | more than 3 years ago | (#35776294)

Why would I go out of my way to use an OS that takes extra work to secure?

Because you want it to use for 3D design, music/film production etc.

Re:For the applications (3)

sortius_nod (1080919) | more than 3 years ago | (#35776318)

So you're saying you use Mac OS?

Re:For the applications (1)

MobileTatsu-NJG (946591) | more than 3 years ago | (#35776896)

So you're saying you use Mac OS?

Not if you're doing 3D work.

Re:For the applications (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35777228)

So you're saying you use Mac OS?

Security through obscurity is no security at all.

Re:Are Computer Crooks Renting Out Your PC? (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35776088)

Yes, but windows does have some rather lax security out of the box. Linux (for the most part) keeps privileges to a minimum unless needed. Your average user doesn't know how, and doesn't want to know how, to secure his windows box.

Re:Are Computer Crooks Renting Out Your PC? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35776572)

Conversely, your average user wants even less to know how to configure drivers on a Linux box, or install programs, or...

Of course, that's why folks like those involved with Ubuntu are working their hardest to make all of that dead simple, but it's still got a ways to go.

Re:Are Computer Crooks Renting Out Your PC? (0)

rockfistus (1445481) | more than 3 years ago | (#35777176)

Exactly. And I do 3d work. All of my music software works painlessly in Windows. And painfully in Linux. I'm not bashing Linux. Just being honest, the truth hurts the "I'm better than everyone else" Linux dorks' feelings. I'm not a security freak either, I like to be a bit secure but I'm not building a big wall of china around my Windows box....Fuck there's no reason for that. I'm not scared of the internet and I've used my computer without antivirus for 10+ years with no probs. Sure I get infected every now and then, and I always know before hand that I'm doing something that might infect me. Good thing I have no problem obliterating anything bad that does get on my system. I think I've re-installed my OS with WinXP maybe 3 times in the past ten years? Whoooop de doo.

Re:Are Computer Crooks Renting Out Your PC? (0)

kelemvor4 (1980226) | more than 3 years ago | (#35776328)

Amen.

Re:Are Computer Crooks Renting Out Your PC? (1)

MokuMokuRyoushi (1701196) | more than 3 years ago | (#35776104)

OS and setup notwithstanding, it's entirely possible for you(and yes, even the l33t3s7 of beings) to be tagged by a botnet. People speak the truth when they say that only an disconnected computer is completely safe.

Re:Are Computer Crooks Renting Out Your PC? (3, Insightful)

John Hasler (414242) | more than 3 years ago | (#35776202)

Possible, but very, very unlikely. Attacking home Linux boxes just isn't cost-effective. There aren't enough of them. Sometimes security through obscurity actually works.

Re:Are Computer Crooks Renting Out Your PC? (1)

MokuMokuRyoushi (1701196) | more than 3 years ago | (#35776290)

Fair enough. Though I'm decent at protecting Windows computers, I know very little beyond what I've already said in regards to Linux vs. virus'. Can anybody link to a place I can learn?

Re:Are Computer Crooks Renting Out Your PC? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35776474)

Re:Are Computer Crooks Renting Out Your PC? (4, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35776300)

You forgot to mention that:
Linux users have a better common sense then the rest.
Linux users use legitimate repos when they install any software.

I think the mac users fit in there as well, but with only linux and windows as experience, I really can't speak for them.

Re:Are Computer Crooks Renting Out Your PC? (5, Insightful)

CapOblivious2010 (1731402) | more than 3 years ago | (#35776358)

Linux users have a better common sense then the rest.

True enough, but that doesn't say anything about the security of linux... it merely says that people who are smart enough to get linux to work for them are also smart enough (on average) to avoid all the crap that idiot windows users fall for.

Re:Are Computer Crooks Renting Out Your PC? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35776700)

True enough, but that doesn't say anything about the security of linux... it merely says that people who are smart enough to get linux to work for them are also smart enough (on average) to avoid all the crap that idiot windows users fall for.

Yes, whereas idiot Apple users' purses (not wallets, being all female) are effected directly by the fanatical brainwashing that binds them to the company in an implementation so overzealous and effective Satan himself would likely get on his knees for Steve Jobs in order to learn his secrets.

Re:Are Computer Crooks Renting Out Your PC? (1)

rockfistus (1445481) | more than 3 years ago | (#35777282)

"Linux users have a better common sense then the rest." *Facepalm* It never ends! Oh dear god... Maybe they are better than everybody and I just can't face the facts. Oh dear god, give me a sign......

Re:Are Computer Crooks Renting Out Your PC? (2)

setagllib (753300) | more than 3 years ago | (#35776302)

The article itself mentions that many of these machines belong to businesses, where Linux has a higher share. And while servers are more difficult to attack in general (well, they don't have Adobe Flash or Reader...) they make better targets, and servers are where Linux is the higher profile target. Its heterogeneity and timely security updates save it a lot there. We can expect more effort given to attacking Linux over time, but for sure it will *take* more effort.

Re:Are Computer Crooks Renting Out Your PC? (1)

JamesP (688957) | more than 3 years ago | (#35776466)

Actually, I've seen my share of linux boxes with malware on them

Either scanning my servers or actually being in my servers - saw a CPU surge in a box, lasted an hour before I just 'destroyed' the (virtual) box

So yeah, there are worms that make their way across linux boxes

Re:Are Computer Crooks Renting Out Your PC? (1)

PNutts (199112) | more than 3 years ago | (#35776648)

Attacking home Linux boxes just isn't cost-effective. There aren't enough of them. Sometimes security through obscurity actually works.

That doesn't make sense in the context of TFA.

Re:Are Computer Crooks Renting Out Your PC? (4, Insightful)

DarkOx (621550) | more than 3 years ago | (#35776342)

Right on I am getting real tired of "I run X" where X is most of Linux therefor I am secure. That attitude alone tells me you are probably making big mistakes all over the place. Arrogance does that. Its true people writing those comments are probably safer than Joe Public with his OEM crap ware laden Windows XP installation, out of date virus defs, and default Windows firewall configuration, 3000 never applied updates waiting, and logged in as an Administrator, but that is pretty low bar to be above!

I do IT security for a living, here is a hint. Whatever software you are using take steps we all read about, firewall, antivirus if that makes sense for your platform, don't elevate permissions when your don't have to, keep your box update, and after you have done all those things continuously check to make sure you are still doing them and above all use common sense at all times, always think before you click!

Re:Are Computer Crooks Renting Out Your PC? (2)

MokuMokuRyoushi (1701196) | more than 3 years ago | (#35776506)

That last part is always the most important. One of my siblings tried to download a game just earlier on a different computer, I'm still trying to dig out the trojan. Even if I've got NOD32 running properly and ports properly secured, that one click will break down any effort made. Wish me luck...

Re:Are Computer Crooks Renting Out Your PC? (1)

IceNinjaNine (2026774) | more than 3 years ago | (#35776966)

Its true people writing those comments are probably safer than Joe Public with his OEM crap ware laden Windows XP installation, out of date virus defs, and default Windows firewall configuration, 3000 never applied updates waiting, and logged in as an Administrator, but that is pretty low bar to be above!

Just remember, when we're being chased by a bear, I don't have to out run the bear... I just have to out run you. Cue v.bad Soviet Russia joke..

Re:Are Computer Crooks Renting Out Your PC? (0)

c6gunner (950153) | more than 3 years ago | (#35777286)

Yeah, as long as you use common sense, you're usually ok. I used windows starting in 96 up until middle of last year. I didn't use anti-virus software for most of that time, and still only got one virus unintentionally (the rest were intentional infections when I was testing various viruses / trojans). So yeah, common sense is the best prevention, but even so I eventually did start using AV software, "just to be safe", and no matter how careful I was I always ended up getting SOME crapware, so occasional spyware scans were a necessity.

Now that I'm only using linux, solaris, and BSD, I don't worry about spyware at all, and I don't bother with AV software either. Sure, there's some infinitesimally small chance that I'll run across malware that can infect one of my machines, but it's so low that it's really not worth thinking about, especially since I still use the same common sense approach as I did on windows. If the average user moves to linux, they WILL be safer, regardless of how little common sense they may have when it comes to computing.

Re:Are Computer Crooks Renting Out Your PC? (1)

CastrTroy (595695) | more than 3 years ago | (#35777020)

A lot of these machines could just be beginners setting up Linux boxes, and not knowing what they are doing. They have the SSH server on, and a weak password, and they are easily pwned. I think that most of these computers probably aren't compromised through people installing unknown software, but rather through bad configuration of servers, that are easily broken into.

Re:Are Computer Crooks Renting Out Your PC? (2)

MobileTatsu-NJG (946591) | more than 3 years ago | (#35776242)

Are Computer Crooks Renting Out Your PC?

No, I don't run windows and I set it up right.

You left out: "And I check on it once in a while.". You are not running a completely secure OS.

Re:Are Computer Crooks Renting Out Your PC? (0, Troll)

hairyfeet (841228) | more than 3 years ago | (#35776472)

Now that the Linux FUD patrol have weighed in (hows that 6 year old X Server bug? Figure out how to make drivers run past a single update yet?) allow the ministry of truth to relay the facts.

..FACT...Post Sp2 Windows is trivial to secure with a wealth of free services from MSFT SE to AVG to Comodo CIS to Avast. OOTB post Sp2 is easy to lock down and will NOT get infected simply by hooking to the net as ALL incoming all blocked BY DEFAULT.

..FACT.. Talk to ANYONE that actually repairs machines (such as myself) and we'll be happy to tell you that a good 90% of infections are INSTALLED BY THE USER. REPEAT nearly ALL INFECTIONS are INSTALLED BY THE USERS, with the other 10% divided between outdated Adobe products and using out of date browsers like IE 6. Why would they install bugs? Two words: SOCIAL ENGINEERING that's why. One of the new bugs I'm sure this bunch is using is the "New limewire" installer, which punches a huge hole in security and sets up a proxy so they can MITM anything coming from that machine. "But Limewire is dead!" you say, true but the users don't know that so the "new" limewire simply drops them on gnutella while pwning the box.

..FACT...Linux without IT personnel IS WORTHLESS. These infections are being done primarily in the SOHO, consumer, and SMB markets where there is NO or lax IT personnel. These users WILL NOT in no particular order...learn BASH, learn CLI, trawl forums for fixes when the update shit all over the drivers, play hardware roulette trying to figure out what works and what don't, hell I could go on all day. Your "solution" may as well be "give them a fab and make them build their own box! Then they'll know what is going on with their systems!" While this is true you have better odds of winning the lotto than getting the masses to go along.

..FACT...When Linux becomes a big enough target IT WILL BE PWNED. See the current rounds of bugs going through Android, or the "KDE Look Screeensaver Trojan" for examples. Windows malware thrives on uneducated users will to install dodgy shit. Lots of uneducated users willing to install dodgy shit on Linux? Here comes the malware. Right now the users of Linux at least attempt to educate themselves and don't go around installing dodgy shit off of Freshmeat. if that situation changes? Welcome to the jungle, we got fun and games.

So your entire argument is based around several fallacies. One that an uneducated user of Windows, which is the ones that get pwned, will suddenly be willing to learn your PITA Linux dance and become an educated Linux user. if that were true they'd quit installing dodgy shit and wouldn't have that problem in Windows either. Two that the bugs are magically knocked down the doors and installing themselves, when it is the users inviting them in and offering them coffee. See the fake AVs, the fake Limewire, and the "watch the hot pron, just install this codec.exe now!" for examples. if Linux users were willing to install dodgy shit like that, don't think someone would be writing it? Think again.

The funny part is you WILL NEVER ask yourself this econ 101 question "What am I doing wrong, that my competitors are doing right?" (hint it is NOT a conspiracy) because when your product costs $0 and the competition has a starting price of $100 and $700 respectively, and they are royally kicking your ass? something is rotten in Denmark.

I could point out it is because your driver model is a drawing of a turd with "fix it yourself LOL!" written underneath, that no B&M like myself will touch it because you can't allow updates without half the drivers shitting themselves, tying software to the kernel rev is fucking idiotic, hell I could go on all day but why bother? You'll just keeping munching that shit sandwich OF FREEDOM while telling everyone one complete lie after another, thinking they'll buy your bullshit. Hell go to Linux TM repos and see every single argument any FOSS zealot will use to rebut me, from "ItWorksForMe (TM)" to "StableABINonsense(TM)" because they spew the same bullshit so much they are easily made into memes.

It doesn't change the fact that after 20 years they are still lower than the margin for error on the desktop and going nowhere, or that every OEM and retailer that attempted to sell your product ran away like it was the clap. Nope it is all a conspiracy by MSFT and the Illuminati to suppress Linux! And sorry about the length but as a retailer that got burnt on Linux returns let me say FIX YOUR BROKED ASS SHIT and maybe you'd have a chance. I haven't seen drivers THAT bad or unstable since Win3.x.

Re:Are Computer Crooks Renting Out Your PC? (0, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35776540)

Let me be the first to say that you're pretty well full of shit.

And that's not a meme.

cheers,

Re:Are Computer Crooks Renting Out Your PC? (0)

icebraining (1313345) | more than 3 years ago | (#35776600)

Touched the nerve, has he? Parent didn't even mention Linux.

99.4% of malware is written for Windows [gdatasoftware.co.uk] , therefore running a different OS is a smart move in terms of security, even assuming two persons with the same skill level.

Re:Are Computer Crooks Renting Out Your PC? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35777138)

That's true but it implies that 'number of virii total' somehow affects an individual's chances of being infected with ANY virii...

It's not that simple, but with such a crushing proportional difference.. you're right.

Being out of the crosshairs 99 percent of the time is a major component of any security model.

Re:Are Computer Crooks Renting Out Your PC? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35776604)

but as a retailer that got burnt on Linux returns .... I haven't seen drivers THAT bad or unstable since Win3.x.

Finally! I'd always wondered what "scarred you for life". Let me be the first to tell you, you are a brave man, indeed! Perhaps foolish also, but, wow, gotta admire your bravado.

Re:Are Computer Crooks Renting Out Your PC? (4, Insightful)

melikamp (631205) | more than 3 years ago | (#35776762)

Windows is trivial to secure with a wealth of free services from MSFT SE to AVG to Comodo CIS to Avast.

Wow. Do you realize that AV software is largely ineffective against new viruses? Here is a typical scenario out of my life: a friend wants me to fix a Windows PC infected with a virus. Sometimes the virus is apparently racing the AV, and sometimes the AV is disabled. But there is always AV. So what good is it? The only useful feature of an AV software is that there is a slight chance it will behave unusually after the machine is infected, and so alert a user of an intrusion sometime in the past (that is, of course, only if the virus is destructive or buggy).

So on one hand you acknowledge that Windows is insecure by default, and should be secured. But to secure it, you want to install a piece of software that slows the computer down, while failing to prevent many viral infections.

You also fail to address the biggest issue with securing Windows: it is theoretically impossible. Because the software is proprietary, it is insecure by any sensible definition. It is insecure for you as the user, although it is made to provide "security" for Microsoft. Not for any technical reason, but solely because of Microsoft's greed, you have a backdoor in your OS that only Microsoft (you hope) can use. Whatever other security holes there are, you propose to fix with other proprietary programs, each having its own backdoor.

When Linux becomes a big enough target IT WILL BE PWNED.

Linux kernel will be pwned? As in, once Linux reaches X% desktop share, all of the sudden a bunch of kernel exploits will be found? How? The value of a kernel exploit today, either local or remote, is already enormous. If they are already found at the rate they are introduced, then what does the popularity have to do with it?

Or did you mean, Linux-based OSes will be owned? All of them at the same time? Or one in particular? And then which one? I am not surprised seeing Android in trouble: every android phone sold today is a proprietary platform, and the proprietors happen to be incompetent. This does not mean that we won't be able to install Debian or Slackware on a phone a few years from now and enjoy rock-solid security.

Re:Are Computer Crooks Renting Out Your PC? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35776842)

The grandparent mentioned the words 'AV software' and you lambast him for claiming it's the magical pill.
 
Hint: With a build-in firewall and common sense, most of the time the AV software is the last line of defense. Yes something will get through, but that's the same thing for both Windows and Linux. Windows AND Linux are relatively secure by default, but that doesn't mean you cannot make them MORE secure. If I put an unpatch centos 3 server out to the internet, it's gonna get own as fast as Windows 7. However, the time it will take is 'never'. Why? Because both OS come with firewall out of the box. You need to turn on external services to expose your OS' vulnerabilities.
 
Don't give me crap about Linux is by design oh-so-much-more secure. All it takes is for the user to enter the root/Administrator to install the latest screensaver, and your box is fuc* .

 
And what does 'proprietary = insecure' mean?
This doesn't even make sense! If you say 'open source allow more eyes on the code, thus making the software potentially be more secure,' then yes, it is likely. But what makes open-source so great that open-source = secure? Hello, phpBB? WordPress? BIND?
Also, while I am not claiming that Linux/BSD have backdoors, what makes you think that even though you have 30000 pairs of eyes looking at the kernel, that no one would be able to slip a backdoor in?
 
Most Windows trojans come from third party vectors; these days you rarely find one that just 'drop into your box' via kernel exploit. IE, yes. Firefox, yes. But kernel exploit? And where did the grandparent say that kernel exploits have anything to do with what Windows malware use to infect? Hint: User install the software themselve
 
Don't be a tool. Linux is secure for now. But if it rises in popularity in the consumer market, it will get own. And it won't get own through the kernel- it will get own through the problem between the keyboard and the chair.
*From someone who just spent the last 12 hours working on his centos boxes and love his linux boxes*

Re:Are Computer Crooks Renting Out Your PC? (0, Flamebait)

hairyfeet (841228) | more than 3 years ago | (#35777046)

Want to know what's funny? he did exactly what I'd said they'd do and went straight to the memes. in this case it is the classic "ChangingThe GoalPosts (TM)" in that he had ZERO to argue my points with so he completely changes the subject to kernel exploits, which is also covered in "LinuxIsJustTheKernel(TM)" .

Now whether the FOSSies (which I use to separate FOSS users from Zealots, FOSSies are like Moonies in that EVERYTHING IS PERFECT and anybody that points out their BS is a "ShillAstroturferTroll(TM)". Now whether the FOSSie wants to believe it or not post SP2 with a decent free AV like Avast or Comodo CIS (both of which use heuristics and sandboxing by default) both of which are 100% free, then it is pretty damned hard to infect windows without the user helping the bug along. This is why we have seen post XP that malware is increasingly going the Trojan route, see fake AV and "Porn Codec.exe" for examples.

And notice he was VERY careful not to say a word about the Linux driver model, the most broken ass POS teabagged pile of garbage every foisted off onto man. And no wonder it is garbage when the controller of the kernel writes, and I quote" The kernel isn't designed, it grows like a virus" [kerneltrap.org] (yeah Linus, its called an STD and your ass would be FIRED for that Mickey Mouse shit anywhere else).

The simple fact is Linux had its shot during the XP pre SP2 and Vista era, and it blew it. They didn't fix the mess, instead just piling more broken releases atop a broken driver model and ended up a broken POS. They will put up with that in the server dept because MSFT server licensing is frankly a clusterfuck from hell, so putting up with the BS of Linux is cheaper than hiring a lawyer to read a MSFT server EULA.

But in the desktop, of which we speak? Things have never been better in Windows land, sorry. Windows 7 is trivial to lock down, trivial to admin, trivial to get hardware for, trivial for even the most clueless to keep safe thanks to low rights mode and users no longer EVER having admin rights (even when you run as admin you are really a power user with admin reserved for SYSTEM).

So why does Windows still get bugs? Three words: Third Parties and PEBKAC. Third parties keep MSFT from packing anything more powerful than Windows Defender in by default because both the OEMs and bunches like Symantec make a killing on trialware, which thankfully windows security will now flag if you don't keep up to date, and PEBKAC because the malware writers learned long ago it is easier to break a system if the user helps you.

I had a beautiful secure machine I sold last week, the customer just paid me to clean it, so what happened? He refused to listen to me or the AV which practically threw itself in front of him trying to stop him (he uninstalled it to get it to "shut up") and then he proceeded to install a bunch of dodgy shit like Limewire and then was amazed when I ran my LiveCd and showed him he was infected all to hell.

Now how are you gonna blame MSFT for that? The guy IGNORED all warnings, disabled AV, and WENT OUT OF HIS WAY to install dodgy shit. And you know what? That is how a good 90%+ of the infections I see cross my desk. The rest are old crap like Adobe or those that turn off updates because they are running "hot windows" and naturally get pwned. Shock shock, running hot software gotten off dodgy warez sites isn't safe. color me surprised!

And for you "Linux advocates" out there? FIX YOUR BROKED ASS SHIT and we retailers will be HAPPY to carry your product! Do you think we LIKE buying Windows licenses? We do so because YOUR SHIT DON"T WORK because your drivers might as well come with the Goatse image for a logo, since they are gonna shit all over themselves come first update! BTW did you know Dell, on of the largest retailers ON THE PLANET can't even use your default repos? Do you know why? It is because if you update ANY Dell linux offering with the default repos it breaks sound and networking! FIX YOUR BROKED ASS SHIT and then we'll talk, otherwise you are just blowing smoke up our collective asses and calling it perfume.

Re:Are Computer Crooks Renting Out Your PC? (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35777154)

Please, stop the unthinking FUD-spreading anti-MS hating.
Facts:
1) There are good AVs and bad AVs. The majority of good AVs have heuristics to detect new suspicious patterns. A good AV will also avoid being a resource hog. Just looking at Process Explorer right now, I see avast! using a grand total of 4708Kb in private mem. That's less than 1% of 512MB. CPU cycles are basically trivial.
2) Viruses aren't usually the great problem, either, but rather trojans and similar that exploit users' gullibility and lack of knowledge. This is where tools such as NoScript, updated browsers and proper downloading practices come in.
3) Any software is theoretically impossible to completely secure. There's just too many attack vectors. Free might have more eyes, but only if there's an interested community. For narrow domains, this is not the case. Moreoever, this "backdoor" you speak of is simply ludicrous. If it existed, it would've been exploited long ago. A company having a backdoor means ANYONE has potential access, which is basically the definition of Huge Security Flaw.
4) Linux is more than just the kernel. Something as simple as exploiting a buffer overrun in the right place (could be something as stupid as the Save As... box) can do the trick.
5) It's far easier to exploit desktop systems than servers. There's FAR more Windows desktops than Linux desktops. Ergo, Windows will be targeted more often. If Linux ever got widespread adoption in the desktop, then we'd see exploits popping up left and right.
You also seem to believe Free means the software will automagically repair itself upon finding a flaw. The truth is, if there's no dev community willing to release a patch in a timely manner (and not break stuff in the process), your software is just as vulnerable. If there is a community, well, it's basically the same as the support team of Microsoft. Triage, develop, test, deploy. (Or what, you think those patches are coded by machines? It's people, one way or another)

Re:Are Computer Crooks Renting Out Your PC? (3, Insightful)

syousef (465911) | more than 3 years ago | (#35776794)

..FACT...Post Sp2 Windows is trivial to secure with a wealth of free services from MSFT SE to AVG to Comodo CIS to Avast. OOTB post Sp2 is easy to lock down and will NOT get infected simply by hooking to the net as ALL incoming all blocked BY DEFAULT.

..FACT.. Talk to ANYONE that actually repairs machines (such as myself) and we'll be happy to tell you that a good 90% of infections are INSTALLED BY THE USER. REPEAT nearly ALL INFECTIONS are INSTALLED BY THE USERS, with the other 10% divided between outdated Adobe products and using out of date browsers like IE 6. Why would they install bugs?

I almost got pwned the other day through a driveby download googling some medical information. Using the latest Firefox browser. XPSP3 with updates. Latest flash and a slightly out of date version of Adobe reader - 9 (but it doesn't matter which version you use because they never fully fix it and there's always an exploit out in the wild that hasn't been fixed!) I certainly didn't click on any installers or even banner ads. So no it's not just user software. Microsoft Security Essentials is what prevented the virus from executing. Zonealarm would have kicked in next. But this drive by did manage to get past sever of my defenses. And windows firewall is no where near as good a solution as simply sticking a proper router in between for incoming AND a good software firewall for outgoing.

Adding "FACT:" to the start of every paragraph is utterly lame and does not lend any authority at all to your post.

Re:Are Computer Crooks Renting Out Your PC? (0)

subk (551165) | more than 3 years ago | (#35777142)

I love reading these "expert opinion" posts written by the guy selling white-box PC's next to the Mexican restaurant in the local strip mall.

Re:Are Computer Crooks Renting Out Your PC? (1)

loosescrews (1916996) | more than 3 years ago | (#35777110)

I wouldn't mind renting someone's Linux computer.

I knew it (5, Funny)

fwarren (579763) | more than 3 years ago | (#35776028)

Windows Vista was not that bloated. Microsoft was just monetizing spare CPU cycles on the Russian Black Market.

Re:I knew it (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35776042)

And they have the cheek to STILL sell at that price! The greedy bastards! Honestly!

Re:I knew it (1)

zill (1690130) | more than 3 years ago | (#35776346)

I'm just glad Microsoft didn't charge extra for this involuntary cloud computing client feature.

Re:I knew it (1)

Noitatsidem (1701520) | more than 3 years ago | (#35776430)

They didn't?

Warning: Safety Protection Must Be Worn (1)

Haedrian (1676506) | more than 3 years ago | (#35776038)

Tinfoil hats on.

Are Computer Crooks Renting Out Your PC? (1)

Greymoon (834879) | more than 3 years ago | (#35776044)

If you outlaw renting computer bots only criminals will rent computer bots. ...profit

What the story is about? (-1, Troll)

grammarnazi45 (2037182) | more than 3 years ago | (#35776066)

These crooks indeed rent our PC (no mine, cause it runs LInux) but don't pay the rent. Speaking of which, there was even a real volutenery botnet [goo.gl] which would send spam, but reward the users with access to collection of pirated software...

GOATSE alert (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35776180)

Parent is goatse fag.

I smell a rat (0)

tloh (451585) | more than 3 years ago | (#35776076)

How did Krebs get access to an "invite only" service? I can't help but feel this is someone's shrewd way of advertising the illegal. Either that or someone is getting whacked for bragging about knowing too much.

Re:I smell a rat (1)

Haedrian (1676506) | more than 3 years ago | (#35776178)

I would expect just like policemen have contacts in the criminal underworld, I would assume security researchers would do the same thing.

Re:I smell a rat (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35776222)

And thus the irony of the ISC^2 code of conduct is finally revealed:
It doesn't take a genious to realize that you keep your friends close and your enemies closer

Nice to see the bad guys facing the facts... (2)

fuzzyfuzzyfungus (1223518) | more than 3 years ago | (#35776098)

The news on computer security is usually relentlessly bad. It is nice to see an instance where the economic realities of non-targeted attacks make the bad guys slightly more vulnerable. Even if our antivirus overlords are pitifully incapable of keeping us from getting 0wn3d, which seems to be the case, they are in a fairly good position to monitor the 'underground' marketplace and reduce the value of compromised PCs. That won't save the strategically valuable targets; but anything that reduces the rental value of Joe Broadband's horribly compromised porn box is good for Joe, and for the internet generally.

Brian Krebs? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35776100)

I will wait for a report from his cousin, Maynard G. Krebs.

Hospitals are no surprise (4, Informative)

HangingChad (677530) | more than 3 years ago | (#35776102)

>Santiam Memorial Hospital in Stayton, Ore.

I used to provide tech support for doctors offices and hospitals and I can tell you for a fact that their computer security ranges from "bad" to "OMFG!!". Seriously, there were places I wanted to take a shower after leaving because their workstations were so riddled with spyware and trojans.

There are reasons for that... (5, Interesting)

damn_registrars (1103043) | more than 3 years ago | (#35776284)

Santiam Memorial Hospital in Stayton, Ore.

I used to provide tech support for doctors offices and hospitals and I can tell you for a fact that their computer security ranges from "bad" to "OMFG!!".

That happens for several reasons:

  • The software they use as part of their work requires admin access (bad vendor programming)
  • The hardware they need to access requires admin access (more bad vendor programming)
  • They consider needing an additional password for admin function to be "too inconvenient" (bad user education)
  • They didn't need to do it when they used 3.x/NT/98/etc ... why should they need it now? (also bad user education)
  • They were told that their anti* software would protect them, even without ever updating it - or anything else (bad vendors meeting up with badly educated users)

also some vendor hardware / systems block updates (2)

Joe The Dragon (967727) | more than 3 years ago | (#35776450)

also some vendor hardware / systems block windows updates / are setup so they can't be installed / the vendor has to do the admin work on them.

Re:There are reasons for that... (5, Informative)

dwarfsoft (461760) | more than 3 years ago | (#35776556)

Most of the "Bad Vendor Programming" I've seen in this situation did not actually require Admin Access, but required specific permissions set for Users to be able to get the programs to function. The reason that these users were ever added to Local Admin was due to "Bad IT Admin" more than anything else.

After I re-trained the one guy who kept adding users into Local Admin on how to determine (regmon/filemon/procmon) which folders/files/regkeys needed additional permissions (and how to manage a local group for those settings) and he continued to do it, I was only too happy to remove his access to be able to change any security settings or add any users to any groups. Problem was solved.

It wouldn't surprise me if far too many people in those Workstation Admin roles don't fully understand security, particularly in places like Hospitals where Doctors think they have the authority to tell everybody how things should be done.

Re:There are reasons for that... (1)

jd2112 (1535857) | more than 3 years ago | (#35776730)

And any patches applied to computers attached to medical equipment must have FDA approval.

Re:There are reasons for that... (1)

swb (14022) | more than 3 years ago | (#35776866)

The other reason left out are the number of doctors who are prima donna assholes and insist that going to med school has made them CERTIFIABLE GENIUSES IN EVERY FIELD.

I work for a small consulting firm and we've had a half-dozen clients in the medical & dental fields and without exception they have all been complete assholes, the dentists worse than the doctors.

One guy literally tried to physically intimidate me to the point I had to actually push him away. I walked from the office 20 minutes later and told my boss and our owner what happened and that I wasn't going back. We finally quit that account after every single guy assigned to that account refused to go back.

I'm not sure how many of them we have left, but I pretty much refuse to work at any of them due to their arrogant attitudes.

Re:Hospitals are no surprise (1)

hedwards (940851) | more than 3 years ago | (#35776440)

It depends how they're set up, but I wouldn't be surprised if that was often the case. The computers that they use at the clinic I go to are pretty locked down, they only seem to run one program, and they don't seem to do anything else. It's a lot easier to harden a system if there's only one application that's allowed and it's one that you control.

Phone call ! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35776126)

Anyone phoned the hospital to warn them ?
LOL I knew you hadn't :D

Hey! Mine's for rent -- cheap. (1)

SlithyMagister (822218) | more than 3 years ago | (#35776130)

Well not so cheap, Call me and we can discuss terms. If you're a crook, I don't want to know, OK? Oh, and I do run windows, and its set up right, just sose ya know...

I hope not (1)

50000BTU_barbecue (588132) | more than 3 years ago | (#35776388)

For their sake... I still run a PIII with W2K.

Re:I hope not (1)

craigminah (1885846) | more than 3 years ago | (#35776502)

Wow, you still got your C-64?

Re:I hope not (1)

Yaa 101 (664725) | more than 3 years ago | (#35776652)

Yes... Und?

Need to go after them **AA-style (1, Interesting)

mysidia (191772) | more than 3 years ago | (#35776428)

Since the ***AA's campaign was so effective... How about CUAA... Computer Users Associatlion of America

The deal is, every computer joins this association, and grants the organization the right to sue on their behalf, to collect damages resulting from malware, in exchange for a percentage of the damages awarded.

Once enough computer users join this association, the association goes after anyone making or distributing malware. (Including infected websites)

Using **AA-style tactics, sending threatening letters to the ISPs of servers propagating malware, etc..

Re:Need to go after them **AA-style (1)

Noitatsidem (1701520) | more than 3 years ago | (#35776456)

We don't want Adobe to go bankrupt that fast, do we?

Re:Need to go after them **AA-style (-1)

mysidia (191772) | more than 3 years ago | (#35776644)

We don't want Adobe to go bankrupt that fast, do we?

I wasn't aware Adobe was distributing malware?

I think MS has more to worry about, for releasing an OS that contributes to the spread of malware, against the user's wishes.

No (1)

scream at the sky (989144) | more than 3 years ago | (#35776438)

It's more like they're squatting, renters at least give some cash back!

If he can do it, why can't ISPs? (2)

rudy_wayne (414635) | more than 3 years ago | (#35776476)

If Brian Krebs can figure out that The Securities Group LLC, The Limited; Santiam Memorial Hospital, North Shore Medical Center; McCann-Erickson Worldwide; and the Greater Reno-Tahoe Economic Development Authority are part of a botnet, then the ISPs used by those companies can do the same. Which points out the real problem with spam, malware and botnets: ISPs refuse to lift a finger to secure their networks.

Every person or business identified as being part of a botnet should be notified that their Internet access is being terminated immediately and will not be restored until they fix the problem.

Re:If he can do it, why can't ISPs? (1)

loftwyr (36717) | more than 3 years ago | (#35776720)

Then they go beyond "Common Carrier" status and become responsible for the traffic on their network. That would include all the illegal software/media/etc. downloaded through that.

They'd rather die that have to police your downloads, so they let you have your viruses.

Pretty Cool Actually (0)

kramulous (977841) | more than 3 years ago | (#35776492)

At first I thought 'Bloody Crooks' ... but then thought about it a little (note: a little).

Global computer usage efficiency just increased. Fewer systems are being used by more people to perform more work. Cool.

I realise that they are not compensating owners of the property but, too bad. Learn to secure your machine or just turn it off when you're not using it. And if you are using the machine and don't notice other work being done, what that say about how crap Windows has gotten (haven't used it in a decade) or how minor your usage is?

Re:Pretty Cool Actually (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35776732)

And if you are using the machine and don't notice other work being done, what that say about how crap Windows has gotten (haven't used it in a decade) or how minor your usage is?

I don't know. What does it say about Linux, which is responsible for nine out of every ten pieces of spam that arrives at my Inbox? (And I'm not even counting the stuff that gets slain out of hand due to an overly high score.)

Linux security is shit... Because a great many Linux users are shit. Any tool who thinks merely running a specific operating system will make them 'secure' should have their Internets license revoked.

Re:Pretty Cool Actually (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35777180)

What does it say about Linux, which is responsible for nine out of every ten pieces of spam that arrives at my Inbox?

That it's used in a ton of mail servers?

pi (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35776798)

Anyone said anything about OSX?
Or non-GUI's?

This is known in the gaming industry for a long ti (1, Interesting)

Dainsanefh (2009638) | more than 3 years ago | (#35776930)

Go to utube, look up "Xbox host boot", you shall see ppl sellin bots for you to DOS your online opponent, gain level in Halo for example, for $2 a bot.

Heck, I am a master admin in a peer-2-peer 3D game call Power Soccer [powerchallenge.com], and have cheaters who speed hack and hex edit our game etc. Guess what, I wrote a keylogger and send it to the dev team, every time when the game patches and installed, the thing will also install. Everytime we encounter a perpertual cheater will turn on the keylogger, colect all his infomation, and fight him back by loggin in to his facebook account and do shit. We release all real names of cheaters and hackers and we expose them, label them racist and myg0t etc.

Here is one of our victims haha:

http://learnaboutfabio.blogspot.com/ [blogspot.com] [blogspot.com]

Without the keylogger we would never know who this person is!

If you have questions or want my technology vist my website: http://dainsanefh.webs.com/ [webs.com] [webs.com] or email dainsanefh@gmail.com

PS: sory for my bad ingles. I am immigrant from argentina.

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