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It's cooling down. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#35913208)

I think we're going to be ok.

Re:It's cooling down. (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#35913246)

I think japan is kindof fucked. The money involved, the land mass that they can't afford to loose, the housing homeless problem, food production loss, and everything else that is chained with those problems.

Re:It's cooling down. (1)

neokushan (932374) | about 3 years ago | (#35913388)

Without sounding too Inconsiderate, quite a lot of their land was recently flattened by the tsunami, so should they lose 50 square miles due to Fukushima, they'll be able to cope by building more efficient housing.

Re:It's cooling down. (0)

drinkypoo (153816) | about 3 years ago | (#35914002)

Without sounding like an idiot, quite a lot of their land was recently irradiated by exposed nuclear fuel burning, and they should really be evacuating about half of the fucking country. Of course, where do you send all those people?

A tiny island nation in one of the most seismically active regions in the world and dotted with obsolete nuclear reactors is a fucking deathtrap.

Re:It's cooling down. (-1, Offtopic)

PenisLands (930247) | about 3 years ago | (#35914052)

Ja tjejerna. Det är jag. Ja, det är jag, Johan. Ja men du, fy fan vad jag gillar tjejer alltså. Jag har gått och klämpt på den här karamellen i tre-fyra dagar nu alltså. Jag såg en jävla fin tjej på stan. Och sen såg jag en till. Och sen en till. Och sen såg jag flera till också. Jamen fy fan vad man blir kåt. Hellst när de är så där lite yngre vettu. Har fasta tuttar. Man vill bara gå och slicka på dem. Åh fy fan alltså. Det är som lolopip vettu. Man bara slickar. Dra in den i munnen vettu. Sug på kuken. Åh. Fan va gott alltså.
Jag menar ju tjejen alltså. Jag menade inte kuken, jag är ju för fan bög fy fan. Heh heh heh. Nähe fan. Du är dum i huvudet. Nej va fan vad jag gillar tjejer alltså. Bara Sug. Ruska in sig i muttan bara. Gräva huvudet ner i muttan. Åhh. Fan va gött alltså. Åhh. Det är jävla najs. Ruska in sig i muttan. Ååhhhh man bara skakar på huvudet. Slicka muttan bara. Ahh. Snygg tjej ser du. Blondiner. Ja men satan också. Fan va najs. Stora tuttar som hänger. Ja fy fan vad najs alltså. Hänger. Man kan slicka och suga. Suga på tuttarna. Har du gjort det nån gång? Fan va det är najs alltså. Helvete. Man blir helt jävla vrålkåt bara man tänker på det. Blir inte du? Ja men satan. Helvete vad jag gillar tjejer alltså. Ohh. Jävlar också. Jag älskar tjejer. Jag vill bara ha dem. För mig själv liksom. Bara till att krama om dem. Sedan klä om dem. Lägga dem i sängen och rulla dem, och dra in kuken i fitta. Åh men satan va najs alltså. Ohh. Jävla najs. Det är jävla najs det. Åh men satan. Man får fan ståkuk bara jag tänker på det. Ja men satan alltså. Ja men satan i gatan. Jag blir så jävla kåt. Jag måste ta och se på porr nu. Få se om jag har något Jenna Jameson. Ja men det är ju jävligt najs. Jenna Jameson vettu. Åh satan. Hon tar dem i baken och överallt vettu. Ja. Fy fan. Fy fan va najs. Jenna Jameson. Ja men satan va najs det är, med porr. Porr när man är ensam vettu. Man bara sitter och runkar bulle hela jävla dan. Ja men satan. Helst när man har försäkringskassan också. Man sitter, lever på bidrag och runkar bulle. Men satan. Men tänk om man hade en riktig tjej. Och knull hela jävla tiden. När man är kåt vettu. Då vill man ju ha nån att pumpa. Man vill ha nån att pumpa vettu.
Hoh hoh hoh hoh hoh hoh. Man bara pumpar in sperman vettu. Bara flyger vettu. Åååhhhh. Och sen kommer man. Ahhhh ah åh. "Yes baby!", säger man sen vettu. Sen bara säger man "Slicka upp det där" vettu. "Slicka upp det där" om det har farit utanför. Ja, ibland far det ju utanför vettu. Nä men satan. Ibland är det ju som att man skjuter vettu, och sen far det överallt vettu. Ja men det är inte så trevligt, men det fan, det får ju tjejen ta upp sen vettu. Ja fan. Hon fixar det där vettu. Tjejerna är duktiga att hålla ordning på saker och städa och sånt. Ja men satan. Det är ju doms uppgift i princip. Dom skall ju hålla på och städa och alltså sånt där vettu. Ja satanimig vettu. Dom diskar. Dom skurar golvet ... och. Jamen de gör allt som man säger dom att dom säg till dom att de skall göra.
Ja, man säger bara till: "Du, ta och skura toan vettu. Toasitsen". Ja, då lagar de den. Och installerar datorn, och virusprogramm på datorn. Ja men satan åh. Men bäst är de ju till att knulla.
Ja men det är ju helt självklart. Knulla fitta är ju som en jävla smörgåsbord för en man. Ja. Nej, jag tänker inte prata mer om det här nu men jag hoppas att ni gillar min video. Ja, hejdå med er.

Av knullfittaren i mig. Ja fan. Gör det. Det är gött vettu. Hao jävlar.

Re:It's cooling down. (1)

CptPicard (680154) | about 3 years ago | (#35914614)

How awesome that Swedish civilization is finally reaching Slashdot too. Here in Finland we've been at the receiving and of you for a long time and it's just getting "better" all the time. Nowadays the required dogma is that we're a bunch of barbarians if we don't take it in deep when as young as possible while we're still soft and malleable so that we don't develop "attitude problems" by getting this idea that we might actually have a "right" not to suck it and love it.

But anyway, glad to see you're bringing the gift of your awesomeness to here as well. Too bad I'm sure you'll be oppressed by being modded down, but don't be discouraged; by finding other minority-rights minded people, I am sure you will be able to demand a change in Slashdot's policies so that everyone will have to actually read you, and perhaps in the future, also have the right to produce exactly the same kind of material, so that they will not be oppressed by the future equal-rights rules of actually having to post exactly like you!

Re:It's cooling down. (2, Insightful)

CrimsonAvenger (580665) | about 3 years ago | (#35914094)

Without sounding like an idiot,

Too late...

quite a lot of their land was recently irradiated by exposed nuclear fuel burning,

I"ll bite. How much land was irradiated? And what's your evidence for your guess?

and they should really be evacuating about half of the fucking country.

Even assuming that the nuclear fuel was burning and freely releasing fission products, prevailing weather patterns mean that most of Japan was completely unaffected by this problem. Well, other than losing the 6 GW of electricity generation that they lost when the earthquake and tsunami screwed things up.

Re:It's cooling down. (0)

Mindcontrolled (1388007) | about 3 years ago | (#35914214)

I guess the evacuated the exclusion zone then because of anti-nuclear fearmongering? Seriously, get some fresh talking points. Yours are getting stale.

Re:It's cooling down. (2, Insightful)

TheRaven64 (641858) | about 3 years ago | (#35914242)

They evacuated the exclusion zone because it would have been a PR disaster if some of the worst-case scenarios had happened and the press had said that all of those people could have been saved if they'd been evacuated early. Once it's completely under control, those people can return.

This is simple disaster management. You don't wait until something bad has happened before you start evacuating people, you evacuate them when the danger is only a potential. That way, if something does go wrong, you have a load of inconvenienced people, not a load of dead people.

Some of that zone has been exposed to radioactive materials, but they all appear to be things with short half lives, so they'll quickly decay back to normal background radiation levels.

Re:It's cooling down. (0)

Mindcontrolled (1388007) | about 3 years ago | (#35914478)

And the cesium levels in the soil have nothing to do with it, right? The 30-year half life is "quickly decaying back", yes? God almighty, you guys are pathetic.

Re:It's cooling down. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#35914100)

"quite a lot" isn't very much. If you are going to be a scaremonger, at least pick harder to spot lies, dumbass. Save that shit for DU where the retards will believe it.

Re:It's cooling down. (1)

dbIII (701233) | about 3 years ago | (#35914164)

so should they lose 50 square miles

50? You've either missed just about everything in the media and are unaware that the amounts considered are a hell of a lot larger or are deliberately setting out to mislead people. There is a lot of the latter going on whenever nuclear is mentioned here. True, it's a annoying pimple on a nation in comparison the the tsunami but crippling to anyone that lived in the same area as the power plant. So yes, you do actually sound too Inconsiderate in a Glen Beck "I'm not saying that .." weasel sort of way even if manipulation was not your intention.

Re:It's cooling down. (2)

neokushan (932374) | about 3 years ago | (#35914222)

You're absolutely right, I made a major cockup. What I had in my head was the 50mile exclusion zone around the plant, which is obviously quite a lot larger than 50 square miles. I stand both corrected and ashamed.

Re:It's cooling down. (4, Funny)

beckett (27524) | about 3 years ago | (#35913398)

I'll wait until some unknown blogger says its ok, thank you very much!

Re:It's cooling down. (1)

DrKnark (1536431) | about 3 years ago | (#35913496)

They never say "it's okay". They have even stated that depending on how this turns out they may have to rethink their stance on nuclear power. They simply try to inform the public of what is actually happening.

Re:It's cooling down. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#35913546)

An apologist apologist, how cute.

The supreme scrumpyolyness of delish! (-1, Offtopic)

AppealToIncorrectnes (2062826) | about 3 years ago | (#35913210)

Those low-cost embedded tracking devices in your smartphone or those personal GPS devices that track the whereabouts of your children, car, pet, or shipment can easily be intercepted by hackers, who can then pinpoint their whereabouts, impersonate t

Appeal to law.

them, and spoof their physical location, a researcher has discovered. Security researcher Don Bailey at SOURCE Boston today disclosed the newest phase of his research on the lack of security in embedded devices, dem

Appeal to authority.

monstrating how he is able to hack vendor Zoombak's personal GPS locator devices in order to find, target, and impersonate the user or equipment rigged with these consumer-focused devices. Bailey

Appeal to ignorance.

y, a security consultant with iSEC Partners, decided to call out the widely available products from Zoombak after the vendor and its

Appeal to flattery.

parent company Securus Inc. didn't respond when he alerted them about the security weaknesses. Mitigating these attacks would only require a few simple changes to the product, he says. Meanwhile,

False dilemma.

the threat is real, he says. "Anyone with a little hardware knowledge could reverse-engineer this," he says. "Children are physically at [risk] because these device

Appeal to emotion.

es can be turned into weapons." Bailey also released tools today for each of the three attacks he demonstrated at SOURCE Boston. "Embedded devices are low-cost, easy to use,

Appeal to flattery.

and easy to debug. And the security landscape is very small," Bailey says. "There is very little capability for integrating secure communications on the devices and ensu

Appeal to consequences.

uring that it's your code executing on there." The underlying issue is that the low-cost and rapid commoditization of these embedded systems precludes their being properly secured. "There's a low entr

Appeal to incorrectness.

ry point for people to develop them, so you have a serious problem because new developers and new startups don't have an understanding of security. It's an insecure product by default," he says. E

Appeal to law.

Embedded system security is tricky in that there are so many moving parts in the final products, including baseband, GPS firmware, application firmwar

Appeal to ignorance.

re, and SIM software, according to Bailey. It's not just consumer GPS tracking devices that are vulnerable, either. Bailey says he was also able to hack server SCADA embedded systems. "I was able to remotely compromise the box in its entirety" via the mic

Appeal to law.

crocontroller on it, he says. With the Zoombak device, Bailey was able to discover the tracking devices, profile them, using what he calls

Appeal to flattery.

"war texting," to intercept their location. Zoombak uses a Web 2.0 interface that provides a map showing the GPS-equipped person or payload's physical location. The devices receive commands via

False dilemma.

a SMS text messages. In the first attack, Bailey forced the device to send him its physical location using techniques to grab the GPS coordinates and local cell tower information. "I can force those devices to bypass the manufacturer's c

Appeal to ignorance.

controls and give me their information and they have no idea that I've intercepted their location," he says. Once he fingerprinted the device, he can determine just what it is. "I know if it's a semi, a mail van, or

Begging the question.

r a teenager driving the family car just by watching the vehicle for a certain period of time. I can use traffic cameras on Google satellite," he says. That would leave the GPS-outfitted person or payload prone to physical attack,

Appeal to authority.

, he says. Bailey was also able to impersonate the Zoombak personal GPS tracking device. "I use it as a weapon to fake the location data. If it's a tr

Appeal to ignorance.

ruck on I-70, I can take the device and force it to send false location to the server and meantime, could hijack the truck," he explains. Zoombak's command and control channel is in the clear, unencrypted. These devices could be locked down with so

Appeal to flattery.

ome type of PKI on the microcomputer to encrypt the communications between the device and its server, Bailey says. "I can just sniff the line and see all of the data in plain text. I should

Appeal to law.

dn't be able to do that so easily; it's pretty ridiculous," he says. Another protection would be to ensure that when a device on a 3G network that it cannot interact with other 3g devices: it should only be able to speak with t

False dilemma.

the manufacturer's server, he says. And he suggests network partititioning, which also would help secure these devices. Zoombak had not responded to press inquiries as of this posting. Microsoft today released a pair of security advisories for Chrome

Appeal to consequences.

e, the browser built by rival Google. One of the advisories also called out a vulnerability in Opera. The change is part of an expansion of the

Begging the question.

vulnerability disclosure policy Microsoft launched last summer, said Mike Reavey, the director of the Microsoft Security Response Center (MSRC). The bugs we

Begging the question.

ere discovered by Microsoft researchers, and reported to the security teams responsible for Chrome and Opera. Google patched the two Chrome vulnerabilities

Appeal to consequences.

s last September and December; Opera fixed its browser flaw in October 2010. The advisories were the first ever from Microsoft for bugs in third-party products. According to Reavey, they will be followed by others, as necessary. "If we're in a s

Straw man.

situation where we find a vulnerability in some other vendor's product, we will release an advisory ourselves," said Reavey. At times, those advisories will appear before the affected vendor has a patch ready for users, Reavey acknowledged. "If there's a

Appeal to emotion.

an attack [ongoing], we'll release an advisory, most of the time with workarounds and mitigations, but we will continue to coordinate when we do so," he said. In no instance will Microsoft issue an advisory on someone else's software without

Appeal to flattery.

t first contacting and coordinating work with the other vendor, Reavey stressed. Microsoft follows the same practice for flaws its researchers find in the company's own software, pointed out Andrew

Appeal to incorrectness.

w Storms, director of security operations for nCircle Security. Storms applauded the move, largely because of his high opinion on the advisories the company produces for its own code. Microsoft's advisories are much more thorough than

Appeal to hypocrisy.

those from most rivals, he said, and more easily digestible. This isn't a sudden shift, said Storms. "Back in 2008 at [the] Black Hat [security conference], Microsoft said they were interested in finding vulnerabilities in the entire Wi

Appeal to law.

indows ecosystem. It took them three years to get it going," he said. Microsoft kicked off its Microsoft Vulnerability Research (MSVR) program in August

Begging the question.

t 2008, saying then that its security researchers would report bugs they found to third-party developers, and coordinate with those vendors to make sure details did not go public before a patch was in place. At the time,

Appeal to hypocrisy.

however, Microsoft said it would not issue security advisories for third-party software. Today's advisories were part of a larg

Appeal to hypocrisy.

ger announcement by Microsoft that made public details of its bug policy, which it dubbed "coordinated vulnerability disclosure," or

Red herring.

r CVD, almost nine months ago. Last July, Microsoft said it would drop the term "responsible disclosure" used to describe the back-and-forth between bug finders and vendors, and instead us

Appeal to ignorance.

se the new moniker CVD. At the time, Microsoft admitted the move was primarily a name change designed to eliminate what it said was the "emotional" context of the older term. Microsoft published the policy today -- something it had not done last year -- an

Appeal to ignorance.

nd asked that others in the security community "embrace the purpose of this shift, which is ultimately about minimizing customer risk, not amplifying it." Today's advisories are a demonstration of that policy in action, sa

Appeal to hypocrisy.

aid Reavey, who also acknowledged that future advisories will address complaints that critics had aired about CVD. "One thing we hear from 'full disclosure' [proponents' is that custo

Appeal to consequences.

omers can be put at risk with CVD," he said, talking about the opposing philosophy by some researchers, who believe in making vulnerabilities public to push vendors' patching pace. Advisories that Microsoft issues down the road about bugs that lac

Appeal to emotion.

ck a patch are an attempt to answer those critics. Microsoft also made public a policy that's been in place since November 2010 that requires all employees to follow the CVD guidel

Appeal to law.

lines, and report bugs in third-party products to the MSVR program. The new rules for internal researchers applies whether they found the flaws on company time, or their own, said Reavey. When asked wheth

Appeal to consequences.

her Microsoft expects others to follow its lead -- some Google security engineers, for instance, have released information about Windo

Appeal to emotion.

ows bugs before Microsoft had patches ready -- Reavey didn't answer directly. "In general, this is the shift we would like to see the industry move toward," he said. Android devices caches for the same function. This is a quick dumper I thr

Appeal to authority.

rew together to parse the files from the Android location provider. The files are named cache.cell & cache.wifi and is located in /data/data/com.google.android.

Appeal to consequences.

.location/files on the Android device. You will need root access to the device to read this directory. How to disable: Find Settings -> Location & Security -> Use wireless networks and unche

Appeal to ignorance.

eck it. This removes the files on 2.3 devices, my 2.2 device keeps the files but stops updating them. Other versions are unknown at this

Appeal to ignorance.

s moment. Usage: $ parse.py You can also pass the --gpx option to get ouptut in GPX format, then use gpsbabel or something to get the data into the format of your choice: $ parse.py --gpx cache.wif

Appeal to emotion.

fi > wifi.gpx Important note: looking at old android source (this code is no longer open from Google it seems) it seems to be limited heavil

Appeal to authority.

ly. However, data is only pruned when new info is added. There is no time based pruning unless there is new data being added to the cache. This could lead to old data being if t

Appeal to consequences.

there is limited movement of the device. // Maximum time (in millis) that a record is valid for, before it needs // to be

Appeal to popularity.

refreshed from the server. private static final long MAX_CELL_REFRESH_RECORD_AGE = 12 * 60 * 60 * 1000; // 12 hours private static fin

Appeal to incorrectness.

nal long MAX_WIFI_REFRESH_RECORD_AGE = 48 * 60 * 60 * 1000; // 48 hours // Cache sizes private static final int MAX_CELL_RECORDS = 50; private static final int MAX_WIFI_RECORDS = 200; Example output

Appeal to incorrectness.

t: $ ./parse.py cache.wifi db version: 1 total: 47 key accuracy conf. latitude longitude time 50:63:13:57:42:7e 80 92 57.689354 11.994763 04/11/11 10:03:51 +0200 e0:cb:4e:7e:cc:53

Appeal to incorrectness.

3 75 92 57.689340 11.994495 04/11/11 10:03:51 +0200 4c:54:99:14:47:68 57 92 57.708979 11.916581 04/11/11 01:14:53 +0200 00:26

False dilemma.

6:18:0a:ad:cb 60 92 57.709699 11.917637 04/13/11 08:40:36 +0200 00:22:15:28:3f:7a 60 92 57.699467 11.979340 04/13

Appeal to popularity.

3/11 11:52:16 +0200 00:22:3f:a7:d9:fd 65 92 57.699442 11.979343 04/13/11 11:52:16 +0200 $ ./parse.py cache.cell db version: 1 total:

Red herring.

41 key accuracy conf. latitude longitude time 240:5:15:983885 1186 75 57.704031 11.910801 04/11/11 20:03:14 +0200 240:5

Appeal to hypocrisy.

5:15:983882 883 75 57.706322 11.911692 04/13/11 01:41:29 +0200 240:5:75:4915956 678 75 57.700175 11.976824 04/13/11 11:52:16 +0200 240:5:75:4915953 678 75 57.700064

Appeal to ignorance.

11.976629 04/13/11 11:53:09 +0200 240:7:61954:58929 1406 75 57.710205 11.921849 04/15/11 19:46:31 +0200 240:7:15

Appeal to hypocrisy.

5:58929 -1 0 0.000000 0.000000 04/15/11 19:46:32 +0200 240:5:75:4915832 831 75 57.690024 11.998419 04/15/11 16:13:53 +0200 If you have

Appeal to popularity.

any questions/info that you'd like to share, I can be reached via @packetlss on Twitter or packetlss+android@gmail.com You may have heard about the way th

Red herring.

hat the iPhone is tracking your every move. Well, it turns out that Android phones do this as well, and likely for the same reasons. Developer Magnus Eriksson has created what he calls an Android location service data dumper. This is an

False dilemma.

n app that searches Android phones for a location data file similar to the one iPhones use to store location data. Following the latest days internet outrage/overreaction to the revelation that iPhone has a cache for its location s

Appeal to authority.

service, I decided to have look what my Android devices caches for the same function. This is a quick dumper I threw together to parse the files from the Android location provider. The file contains what he refers to

Appeal to hypocrisy.

as ‘coarse’ location data. That is to say data obtained by cellphone tower location and not a more accurate GPS data location. Here is a sample set of data from the cache.cell file that recor

Appeal to emotion.

rds cellular locations in the Android file system. You can see that it contains a set of entries that record a latitude and longitude as well as a time stamp. $ ./parse.py cache.cell db version: 1 total

Begging the question.

l: 41 key accuracy conf. latitude longitude time 240:5:15:983885 1186 75 57.704031 11.910801 04/11/11 20:03:14 +0200 240:5:15:983882 883 75 57.706322 11.911692 04/13/11 01:41:

Appeal to flattery.

:29 +0200 240:5:75:4915956 678 75 57.700175 11.976824 04/13/11 11:52:16 +0200 240:5:75:4915953 678 75 57.700064 11.976629 04/13/11 11:53:09 +0200 240:7:61954:58929 1406 75 57.710205 11.921849 04/15/11 19:46:31

Begging the question.

1 +0200 240:7:15:58929 -1 0 0.000000 0.000000 04/15/11 19:46:32 +0200 240:5:75:4915832 831 75 57.690024 11.998419 04/15/11 16:13:53 +0200 The file is only accessible on devices that have

Appeal to authority.

e been rooted and opened up to installation of unsigned apps. This is similar to the way that the iPhone used to store the data before it was made available to develo

Begging the question.

opers using the iPhone’s background API for location sharing. Now however, the iPhone data is exposed to casual access using an application called iPhone Location Tracker that is similar in intent to the app that Eriksson has c

Begging the question.

created for Android phones. We spoke to Eriksson about the way that the data from the Android OS and from iPhones is being used by their respective creators. He expla

Appeal to consequences.

ained that when an application requests location information, it doesn’t always need a pinpoint spot so the OS just uses cell towers to get a general location. The phone then sends the cell tower info to Google and in return

Red herring.

gets a set of coordinates. Then it can use this info (via triangulation and weighting based on each cells towers signal strangth etc)

Appeal to popularity.

) [to] get a rough estimate of it’s location. He mentions that it’s likely that the data is transmitted and received in the same way by Apple. This is corroborated

Appeal to ignorance.

d by Adam Swindon, the creator of the CDMA version of the iPhone Tracker, who says that the data from a separate field within the Apple location data file, LocationHarvest, points to the possibility that the informatio

Red herring.

on is sent periodically to Apple. I think the names of the tables could be another clue towards how the data is being used. I have only ever seen the harvest tables containing a few entries with very recent t

Red herring.

timestamps, therefore they might be used as a queue for data to be sent to Apple. Once sent it could be archived in the other table, and the harvest table cleared. Due to the strong evidence that this behavior is extremely similar between the An

Begging the question.

ndroid and iOS operating systems, it’s likely that the inclusion of months worth of this data is an oversight or error on Apple’s part and not intentional. Instead it’s lik

Appeal to popularity.

kely that the Apple system was originally intended to behave the way that Google’s system does. This is the behavior that John Gruber has speculated was the initial intent of Apple in regards to how long they keep location data i

Appeal to authority.

in their system. After a period of time, 12 hours for cellular data and 48 hours for WiFi data, has passed, the location data is renewed by a new request from Google. It is also limited to a ma

Begging the question.

aximum number of entries so that the database doesn’t grow too large. Swindon says that the location file pulled from his phone contained roughly 13,000 entries related to cellular network tracking. By contrast the Android file is

False dilemma.

limited to only 50 entries in the cellular location database. The size of the database on the iPhone is what Eriksson attributes the accuracy of the lo

False dilemma.

ocation maps created by the iPhone location data file to. Normally the data would be much more crude, but with a lot more data sampling to work with, the map grows more

False dilemma.

e detailed and more accurate. This means that the only reason that the Apple system yields such detailed results is that it has far more data than it’s supposed to have in it’s database. Why that system does not b

False dilemma.

behave the way that the Android location recording system does and simply dump out older entries is a mystery at this point. Gruber points to unofficial channels to suggest t

Appeal to incorrectness.

that it is a bug that will be corrected and looking at the evidence, we tend to agree. Today, two researchers for O’Reilly media published an article claiming discover

Appeal to hypocrisy.

ry of a hidden tracking system on the iOS 4 operating system. Using simple techniques, Alasdair Allan and Pete Warden extracted data off of an iOS version 4 device and wrote an open source

Appeal to law.

e software utility to effectively graph this data onto a map. As a fellow researcher, I champion their creativity and their development. As an expert in this field, I have three points of

Appeal to consequences.

argument to raise. 1) Apple is not collecting this data. And to suggest otherwise is completely misrepresenting Apple. I quote: Apple is gathering this dat

Appeal to popularity.

ta, but it’s clearly intentional, as the database is being restored across backups, and even device migrations. Apple is not harvesting this data from your device. This is data on the device that

Begging the question.

t you as the customer purchased and unless they can show concrete evidence supporting this claim – network traffic analysis of connections to Ap

Appeal to authority.

pple servers – I rebut this claim in full. Through my research in this field and all traffic analysis I have performed, not once have I seen this data traverse a netw

Straw man.

work. As rich of data as this might be, it’s actually illegal under California state law: (a) No person or entity in this state shall use an electronic tracking device to determine the

Appeal to incorrectness.

e location or movement of a person. I don’t think that’s a legal battle Apple wants to face considering the sale of over 100 million iDevices worldwide. That raises the question – how is this data used? It’s used all the time by software runnin

Appeal to emotion.

ng on the phone. Built-In applications such as Maps and Camera use this geolocational data to operate. Apple provides an API for access to location awareness called Core Location. Here is Apple’s description of this softare library: The Core Location frame

Appeal to incorrectness.

ework lets you determine the current location or heading associated with a device. The framework uses the available hardware to determine the user’s position and heading. You use the c

Appeal to popularity.

classes and protocols in this framework to configure and schedule the delivery of location and heading events. You can also use it to define geographic regions

Appeal to law.

s and monitor when the user crosses the boundaries of those regions. Seems pretty clear. So now the question becomes why did this “hidden” file secretly appear in iOS 4? 2) This hidd

Appeal to hypocrisy.

den file is neither new nor secret. It’s just moved. Location services have been available to the Apple device for some time. Understand what this file is – a log generated by the various

Red herring.

radios and sensors located within the device. This file is utilized by several operations on the device that actually is what makes this device pretty “smart”. This file existed in a different form p

Appeal to consequences.

prior to iOS 4, but not in form it is today. Currently, consolidated.db lies within the “User Data Partition” on the device. This is a logical filesystem that maintains non-system level privileges and where most of the data is stored. When y

False dilemma.

you perform an iOS Backup through iTunes, it is backing up this partition. Prior to iOS 4, a file called h-cells.plist actually existed in the /root/Library/caches/locationd folder,

Appeal to ignorance.

but with hidden access from other software and applications. h-cells.plist contained much of the same information regarding baseband radio locatio

Appeal to emotion.

ons as consolidated.db does now, but in Apple Property List format rather than sqlite3. Through my work with various law enforcement agencies, we’ve used h-cells.plist on devices older than iOS 4 to harvest geolocational evidence from iOS devices. So let

Appeal to emotion.

ts recap. h-cells.plist = Pre iOS 4 / Radio Logs including Geolocational Data / Hidden from Forensic Extraction (usually) consolidate

Appeal to authority.

ed.db = iOS 4+ / Radio logs including geolocational Data / Easily acquired through simple forensic techniques The change comes with a feature introduced in iOS 4 – Mutlitasking and Background Location Se

Appeal to consequences.

ervices. Apps now have to use Apple’s API to operate in the background – remember, this is not pure unix we’re dealing with – it is only a logical multi

Appeal to ignorance.

itasking through Apple’s API. Because of these new APIs and the sandbox design of 3rd party applications, Apple had to move access to this data. Either way, it is not secret, malicious, or hidden. Users still have to approve

Appeal to popularity.

location access to any application and have the ability to instantly turn off location services to applications inside the Settings menu

Appeal to flattery.

u on their device. That does not stop the generation of these logs, however, it simply prevents applications from utilizing the APIs t

Appeal to authority.

to access the data. 3) This “discovery” was published months ago. I understand that Mr. Allan and Mr. Warden are valued researchers for O’Reilly, but they have completely missed the boat

Appeal to ignorance.

on this one. In the spirit of academia, due diligence is a must to determine who else has done such research. Mr. Allan, Mr. Warden, and O’Reilly have overlooked and

False dilemma.

d failed to cite an entire area of research that has already been done on this subject and claimed full authorship of it. Let’s break down my history: Back in 2010 when the iPad first came out, I did a research project at the Rochester Ins

Appeal to consequences.

stitute of Technology on Apple forensics. Professor Bill Stackpole of the Networking, Security, & Systems Administration Department was teaching a computer forensics course and pitched the idea of doing forensic analysis on my recently acquire

Straw man.

ed iPad. We purchased a few utilities and began studying the various components of apple mobile devices. We discovered three things: Third Party Application data can con

Begging the question.

ntain usernames, passwords, and interpersonal communication data, usually in plain text. Apple configurations and logs contain lots of n

Appeal to emotion.

network and communication related data. Geolocational Artifacts were one of the single most important forensic vectors found on these devices. After presenting that project to Professor Stackpole’s forensic class, I began

Red herring.

work last summer with Sean Morrissey, managing director of Katana Forensics on it’s iOS Forensic Software utility, Lantern. While developing with Sean, I continued to work with Professor Stackpole an academi

Appeal to law.

ic paper outlining our findings in the Apple Forensic field. This paper was accepted for publication into the Hawaii International Conference for Syst

Appeal to law.

tem Sciences 44 and is now an IEEE Publication. I presented on it in January in Hawaii and during my presentation discussed consolidated.db and it’s contents with my audience – my paper was written prior to iOS 4 coming out, but m

Red herring.

my presentation was updated to include iOS 4 artifacts. Throughout the summer, I worked extensively with Sean on both developing Lantern and writing custom software to interpret forensic data for customers of ours who

Appeal to popularity.

needed better ways of searching for and interpreting data. When the iPhone 4 came out, I was one of the first people in San Francisco to grab one (yes I waited

Appeal to ignorance.

d to be in the front of that awful line). — ( Look for the RIT shirt ) Within 24 hours of the iPhone 4s release, we had updated Lantern to support forensic analysis of iOS 4.0 devices. Within 36 hours, we had began writing code to inves

Appeal to emotion.

stigate consolidated.db. Once a jailbreak came out for iOS 4, I wrote a small proof of concept application to harvest the contents of consolidated.db and feed it to a server for remot

Appeal to hypocrisy.

te location tracking. Ever since then, location artifacts have been a main area of interest for me. I’m now the Lead Engineer for Katana Forensics leading all technical research and development of both Lantern and private utilities. I

Appeal to emotion.

I travelled to Salt Lake City, UT in November for the Paraben Forensics Innovation Conference (PFIC) and presented with Sean on iOS Forensics including the content of

Appeal to flattery.

f consolidated.db. At that same conference, Sean and I announced the development of Lantern 2.0 which would fully support the interrogation of consolidated.db and other geolocational artifacts scattered throughout the device

Appeal to consequences.

e. Sean and I even wrote a book detailing iOS forensics involving iOS 4 devices that came out on December 5th, 2010. — Sean Mo

Appeal to ignorance.

orrissey, Primary Author, Alex Levinson, Contributor In the course of writing Chapter 10 – Network Forensics – I fully explain and detail th

Straw man.

he examination of consolidated.db and other network artifacts within the device! — Page 335 - Continued on page 336. In February of 2011, Sean and I previewed Lanter

Appeal to incorrectness.

rn 2.0 at the DoD Cyber Crimes Conference in Washington, DC including our geolocational features. Lantern 2.0 has been on the market for months now and performs the same functionality Mr. Warden’s

Appeal to ignorance.

s utility does and much more. We correlate geolocational data embedded in images and third party application. We give you a geolocational timelin

Appeal to popularity.

ne of events in list view showing much more than baseband logs within consolidated.db. While forensics isn’t in the forefront of technology headlines

Appeal to emotion.

these days, that doesn’t mean critical research isn’t being done surrounding areas such as mobile devices. I have no problem with what Mr. Warden and Mr. Allan have created or p

Appeal to consequences.

presented on, but I do take issue with them making erroneous claims and not citing previously published work. I’m all for creative development and research, as long as it’s honest.

Appeal to ignorance.

Re:The supreme scrumpyolyness of delish! (0)

davester666 (731373) | about 3 years ago | (#35913270)

WTF? Methinks you may have posted to the wrong story.

Unless Apple is secretly tracking the radioactive material release from the Fukushima reactors...

Re:The supreme scrumpyolyness of delish! (3, Interesting)

PopeRatzo (965947) | about 3 years ago | (#35913956)

WTF? Methinks you may have posted to the wrong story.

No, he posted to the story he meant to.

You'll see this kind of trolling, using brand new accounts and very very long off-topic or nonsensical posts whenever there is a story that may have implications that could negatively impact a corporation or industry sector. I believe they are intended to disrupt discussion of those stories. You'll see them very often in stories that discuss telecom companies or energy industry.

I believe they are paid trolls, from organizations like New Media Strategies (or their darker cousins) who, instead of astroturfing or writing positive things about their clients, exist only to disrupt serious discussions of things that could be construed to negatively impact their clients.

I could be wrong, but I've been seeing this pattern. You'll also see a pattern where an offtopic post is followed by a string of anonymous or very new accounts being very repetitive and responding to the original offtopic post, creating a long section that many people just won't bother to scroll through and will just abandon the potentially hot story.

Yes, I'm paranoid. I believe paranoia is an appropriate reaction to life circa 2011.

Re:The supreme scrumpyolyness of delish! (0)

mjeffers (61490) | about 3 years ago | (#35913992)

I'd think if a PR firm was paying someone to be disruptive they could do better than posting shitty erotica. My guess is that this particular troll falls more into the "bored teen" category.

Re:The supreme scrumpyolyness of delish! (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#35913326)

Appeal to consequences.

Appeal to popularity.

False dilemma.

Begging the question.

I must admit, Mr. Sheen's winning is quite infectious, but I do believe your doing it wrong.

No, thanks (2)

MichaelSmith (789609) | about 3 years ago | (#35913226)

Funny reading a post about people hacking up reactor cooling solutions with radioactive water pooling all over the place on a site called nuclearpoweryesplease.org

Re:No, thanks (3, Funny)

rrohbeck (944847) | about 3 years ago | (#35913400)

I just checked that site and you were right. No news there, just pages and pages on how reactors work. Wonders of technology. True, when they work and don't burn or explode.

Re:No, thanks (0, Insightful)

bertok (226922) | about 3 years ago | (#35913512)

Your sarcasm is ill deserved.

Those reactors are 45 year old technology, took a direct tsunami hit right after an earthquake that was in the top 3 worst ever recorded, exploded, caught fire, and resulted in a grand total of... zero deaths.

Meanwhile, all other forms of cost-effective power generation are much more dangerous, killing far more people than nuclear technology, even including nuclear bombs! For example, the worst dam failure of all time, the Banqiao Dam [wikipedia.org] killed 171K people, about the same number that were killed by the atomic bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki combined.

The worst nuclear disaster of all time, Chernobyl, killed only 31 people. For comparison, that's about 0.5% of the deaths attributed to coal mining [mit.edu] per year. The United States coal mining industry alone has about the same number of deaths per year [typepad.com] as the total deaths due to nuclear power, ever. That number by the way is 40 people [wikipedia.org] . That's like... 3 per decade.

Also, people generally forget that accidents aren't the only source of deaths related to power generation. The United States has gone to war multiple times to protect their interests in oil, leading to several hundred thousand more deaths.

For some reason, people are terrified of the safest form of power generation that is in common use, but have no problem with the US military using Uranium bullets [wikipedia.org] to shoot Iraqi citizens by their thousands.

reactors are like herpes (1)

cheekyboy (598084) | about 3 years ago | (#35913548)

They keep on giving for 26000 years plus.

If a damn kills a bunch of people its a one of event, a pu239 contamination means death zone for eons until planet of the apes happens.

Re:No, thanks (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#35913562)

You forgot the number of cancer cases attributed to the Chernobyl accident.
WHO estimated this to about 4000 cases. Still nowhere near what hydro power kills but if you don't include those numbers in you arguments they will be shot down.

Sarcasm... (1, Interesting)

Sooner Boomer (96864) | about 3 years ago | (#35913572)

Well, I certainly have sarcasm (and disbelief) when I hear comments like -

For some reason, people are terrified of the safest form of power generation that is in common use, but have no problem with the US military using Uranium bullets to shoot Iraqi citizens by their thousands.

thousands..really? ..killed with depleted uraniun anti-tank bullets? thousands?

Quite possibly... (3, Interesting)

denzacar (181829) | about 3 years ago | (#35913892)

Thousands of civilians killed? Yes. [wikipedia.org]
Thousands of civilians killed by U.S.? Again, yes.

The IBC project released a report detailing the deaths it recorded between March 2003 and March 2005[72] in which it recorded 24,865 civilian deaths. The report says the U.S. and its allies were responsible for the largest share (37%) of the 24,865 deaths.

Thousands killed by DU ammunition? Possibly.
Thousands affected by the continuous effect radiation from DU ammunition? Almost certainly.
When you measure something in thousands of tonnes you can safely say that it WILL affect large areas of land and large numbers of people.
And 4.468 billion years is a long time.

The use of DU in munitions is controversial because of questions about potential long-term health effects.[4][5] Normal functioning of the kidney, brain, liver, heart, and numerous other systems can be affected by uranium exposure, because uranium is a toxic metal.[6] It is weakly radioactive and remains so because of its long physical half-life (4.468 billion years for uranium-238). The biological half-life (the average time it takes for the human body to eliminate half the amount in the body) for uranium is about 15 days.[7] The aerosol or spallation frangible powder produced during impact and combustion of depleted uranium munitions can potentially contaminate wide areas around the impact sites leading to possible inhalation by human beings.[8] During a three week period of conflict in 2003 in Iraq, 1,000 to 2,000 tonnes of DU munitions were used.[9]

Re:Quite possibly... (3, Informative)

Kyusaku Natsume (1098) | about 3 years ago | (#35913994)

The main trouble with depleted uranium comes from its toxicity, not from its radioactivity, you can see that since as you pointed out, the half life of U238 comes in a geological timescale.

Well... actually both. (1)

denzacar (181829) | about 3 years ago | (#35914246)

Since the main way DU shells get to affect the civilian population is through fragmentation - which leads to inhaling and ingesting radioactive particles by said population.

Re:No, thanks (5, Insightful)

MichaelSmith (789609) | about 3 years ago | (#35913798)

The subtext behind this issue of what source of energy does the most damage is control. Nuclear power plants are big, long term projects which require lots of investment from large Governments. Because of this they increase the reliance which people have for those Governments. You are locked in to both the technology and the political environment which brought it in to being. So people who want political independence on a smaller scale (state, local or individual) oppose nuclear power. They want technology they can control. They want it to be within their own reach.

Re:No, thanks (2, Interesting)

HungryHobo (1314109) | about 3 years ago | (#35913916)

even if you count when things go wrong it still looks better than most of the alternatives.

For a parallel.
Many people are afraid of flying.
Why? it doesn't make a great deal of sense, you're more likely to die driving to the airport than while on the plane unless you live really close to the airport or you're going on a really long flight.
It's irrational.

But here's the thing.
When there's a plane crash hundreds of people die all at once.
When there's a plane crash it makes the news worldwide.
When you're on a plane it's someone else in control(the pilot).
Even when the plane doesn't crash if something goes wrong everyone hears about it.

Getting to your destination is still safer by plane by a wide margin if you're going long distance.
but people are still afraid of it.

Because you don't hear about all the road deaths.
They barely make the local news.
people don't die in their hundreds in car crashes.
they die less than half a dozen at a time.
In total vastly more people die on the roads but you only hear about the ones in your local area.
And people can convince themselves that they are in total control on the road, they ignore the chance of someone else doing something stupid and driving into them or something unexpected happening.

Nuclear is kind of like that.
It kills far less people per terawatt than most other sources even counting Chernobyl.
But when anything goes wrong it makes the world news.
It can kill lots of people when it goes wrong all at once but in normal operation it's vastly safer.
Other sources of power kill in ones or twos and only make the local news.
But they kill a lot of people per year.
a coal miner here a gas worker there and every now and then someone dies installing panels on their roof.

Plus there's the sexy aspect: radiation is scary and invisible, coal smog is boooring.

If I'm sitting watching the news beside someone who's terrified of flying as a story breaks about a plane crash am I wrong if I simply say
"It's still safer than the other options"
even if the person who thinks flying is more dangerous is pointing at it and saying
"look! look! I told you it isn't safe! Driving everywhere is the far safer way to travel! how can you say that after seeing that disaster!!!"

I'm in favour of nuclear because it's still safer than most of it's competitors.

It would be nice to be in control of your power generation but that's a pipe dream. If you don't live decently close to the equator solar panels on your roof are nothing but an expensive status symbol.

"Distributed" is a nice sounding word but in reality it doesn't make the problems with a flaky little grid based on dirty little community generators go away.

Re:No, thanks (1)

MichaelSmith (789609) | about 3 years ago | (#35913936)

dirty little community

Thats the issue, isn't it? Why have a dirty little community when you can have a big, fancy, bureaucracy?

Re:No, thanks (1)

Bing Tsher E (943915) | about 3 years ago | (#35914538)

And why tolerate a bureaucracy when you can have a fancy status symbol on your roof?

Oh, right! Because that bureaucracy pays for the solar panel in artificial subsidies!

Re:No, thanks (3, Interesting)

mpe (36238) | about 3 years ago | (#35913834)

Those reactors are 45 year old technology, took a direct tsunami hit right after an earthquake that was in the top 3 worst ever recorded, exploded, caught fire, and resulted in a grand total of... zero deaths.

IIRC two people were killed at the plant by the earthquake. Both the earthquake and tsunami were of much greater magnitude than anything considered by the designers.
It's interesting that no attempt has been made to compare damage at this plant with that at other industrial plants in Japan. The press has also been silent on toxic chemical spills resulting from the earthquake and tsunami.

Re:No, thanks (3, Interesting)

Kyusaku Natsume (1098) | about 3 years ago | (#35914036)

Well, nobody has followed up the story of the burning refinery of Cosmo Oil at Chiba, very close to Tokyo that burned for a week, or the other 2 refineries washed away by the tsunami in Miyagi prefecture, what stand was left to burn.

Re:No, thanks (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#35913868)

How fucking dare you dismiss the Chernobyl disaster like that, and the people who risked their lives KNOWINGLY to save their country.
How about learning something before just dismissing the lives of these people, just so you can justify nuclear power?

I am all in favour of nuclear power and I realise the reasons that Chernobyl happened. But to dismiss the lives of these incredibly brave people is despicable.

Re:No, thanks (2)

PopeRatzo (965947) | about 3 years ago | (#35914046)

The worst nuclear disaster of all time, Chernobyl, killed only 31 people.

Oh, come on.

I remember a little over a month ago, when we were hearing about how this Japanese disaster was no problem and how the reactors all handled the tsunami well and there was no reason for concern.

"Clean, Safe, and Too Cheap to Meter" was the slogan of the nuclear energy industry. It's turned out to be none of those things, and just because more people die from one of the other toxic sources of energy that rely on scarce, dangerous substances that happen to be under the control of a small group of transnational corporations doesn't mean that we should not discuss the very serious drawbacks to nuclear energy, only one of which is the possibility of disasters like this Fukushima one, now at "level 7" (at least for the time being).

I know nuclear energy is all high-tech-ey and stuff and cool but one thing for sure: as long as private industry is going to run the plants for profit there are going to be safety shortcuts and "unforeseen" accidents that are "unprecedented" and lots of people are going to die, either directly or indirectly 20 years later when they've got scores of tumors like so many of the workers from the "successful" plant at McMurdo, Antarctica (Raytheon).

Re:No, thanks (4, Insightful)

Mindcontrolled (1388007) | about 3 years ago | (#35914104)

The german poet Christian Morgenstern brilliantly commented on that kind of denial nearly 100 years ago - "weil, so schlieÃYt er messerscharf // nicht sein kann, was nicht sein darf". It should not be, therefor it cannot be. That's pretty much the hymn of the apologist.

Re:No, thanks (1)

dbIII (701233) | about 3 years ago | (#35914188)

You again? Well let's just hit your first point out of the park. Consider the reactor near you and when it was designed. Now give up on the bullshit and argue on some point that is relevant instead of the "X year old technology" line can apply to just about any nuclear reactor anywhere.

Re:No, thanks (1)

Mindcontrolled (1388007) | about 3 years ago | (#35914234)

The "40-year old" thing is basically a pure "no true scotsman". Tells you a lot about the apologists if they have to resort to that.

Dams built for flood control (1)

mdsolar (1045926) | about 3 years ago | (#35914210)

Dams that fail are mainly built for flood control and may secondarily be used for power generation. It is entirely wrong to attribute deaths owing to their failure to hydro power. They usually fail because the flood is just too overwhelming but they may have preserved as many or more lives prior to failure as are lost upon failure. On the other hand, 30,000 to 60,000 is a reasonable estimate of the number of people that are being killed by Chernobyl. http://www.chernobylreport.org/?p=summary [chernobylreport.org] Since one cannot argue that the electricity from nuclear power has preserved any more lives than that from hydro power, nukes are clearly the more dangerous form of generation.

Re:No, thanks (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#35914670)

You're full of it and you know it.

Re:No, thanks (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#35914550)

When you think about how stupid bombing two cities 3 days apart was, and wonder: "Is there something more stupid than this?"

Then come the Japs and build not one, but four nuclear reactors on the same place. What, was Fukushima expendable? Is it to be spelled Fuk-u-shima?

This, after knowing first hand how nuclear can be a bad thing.
This, after knowing they have a lot -- as in a REAL BIG INCIDENCE -- of earthquakes.
This, after knowing earthquakes might be followed by tsunamis on coastal areas.

Of course, some dumb people will keep on saying nuclear is a "cheap" (as in abandoning a city is cheap) and "clean" (as in the place is not cleaner without people) solution. And some idiots will fall for it... again! Now, who's more stupid? Those who say it's safe or those who believe PR stuff?

Re:No, thanks (1)

camperdave (969942) | about 3 years ago | (#35914558)

Why should that be surprising? I presume with a name like NuclearPowerYesPlease that they would be pro-nuclear. Nothing would aid the pro-nuclear camp more than a speedy cleanup of the Fukushima site. Step one of that process would be cooling the fuel to the point where it can be handled. So, really... is it all that surprising that there would be people suggesting solutions as to how to hack together cooling solutions?

FTFA (1)

delta98 (619010) | about 3 years ago | (#35913322)

*mitigate the consequences of the releases that will continue for a while.* Well, all bullshit aside- things are pretty much a forgone conclusion as far as the "It got away from us" dept. You really cant put the toothpaste back in the tube at this point. I think BP has been trying to 'mitigate' a bit of an oil spill. I'm not saying its the end of the world but lets be a little honest here. This is a fuck up and we all eat at the same table.I understand the quake and unfourtunate functions thereafter but this is everybodys deal. To say one entitiy will take charge of cleanup is just plain silly. Not yelling at /. this is going to need some serious out of the bar thinking.

Re:FTFA (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#35913366)

Not many people are willing to pitch in when they can easily point the finger.

Re:FTFA (1)

delta98 (619010) | about 3 years ago | (#35913444)

I agree with you. Keep fucking around and there wont be a finger to point. Like I said, We can all screw around but at some point we eat at the same table. Just cant seem to get that through some heads.

Re:FTFA (1)

Hazel Bergeron (2015538) | about 3 years ago | (#35913504)

Yeah, BP's spill hasn't got the whole world demanding that we review use of oil.

More accurately, there's no-one paying politicians to use it as an excuse to change national policy.

Re:FTFA (1)

delta98 (619010) | about 3 years ago | (#35913552)

While I dont know weather you're being sarcastic or not BP in the grand scheme of things just got a repreive.For the moment. My comment is, and as typed is that it isn't good practice to shit in the bowl you will eat out of.Period.

Re:FTFA (3, Informative)

Mindcontrolled (1388007) | about 3 years ago | (#35913614)

Reasonable people are demanding that we review our use of oil for years. What's your point?

Re:FTFA (1)

mpe (36238) | about 3 years ago | (#35913852)

Yeah, BP's spill hasn't got the whole world demanding that we review use of oil.

Nor did Piper Alpha have any such effect...

Re:FTFA (1)

Mindcontrolled (1388007) | about 3 years ago | (#35913876)

Well, might that be because Piper Alpha didn't have any significant non-local effects?

Send in the robots (2, Insightful)

Interoperable (1651953) | about 3 years ago | (#35913392)

I guess that the primary reason that such duct-tape-and-cardboard methods are necessary is that people simply can't go into the reactor building due to high radiation levels. All the hardware required to cool the reactor is in place, it just needs repairs. It would surely be easier to perform those repairs than build a new cooling system, provided that access to the systems was possible.

I can't imagine that flooding the containment buildings was their first (or even second) choice but they must be restricted in terms of what systems they have access to from outside the most heavily contaminated areas.

Re:Send in the robots (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#35913472)

Can you imagine the damage from salt water to a cooling system designed for fresh and clean water? I know a outdoor swimming pool where someone thought it was more ecofriendly to use salt water instead of chlorine in the water. the system was damaged in just weeks. putting fresh water in it again did not help. two years of fundraising later the €400.000 repairs (read replacement of the pool) could be executed. This was an expensive fuckup at a non radioactive site...

Repairing the existing cooling systems is only a short term solution.

Re:Send in the robots (3, Insightful)

Mindcontrolled (1388007) | about 3 years ago | (#35913662)

Yeah, you are probably right - but what does that tell us? They have no concept at all to handle a major failure mode in one of their reactors, none at all. All we are seeing is seat-of-the-pants level improvisation, because they have no plan. Why do we let those guys operate a reactor again?

Re:Send in the robots (1)

drinkypoo (153816) | about 3 years ago | (#35913990)

There is no reason such methods are necessary. They are hoping to get to a condition where they will be able to remove the thing rather than having it fester for ten thousand years and therefore they are spewing radioactive material into the air in the meanwhile. Fuel rods AND fuel pellets have been seen in the open in damaged condition. This is completely unacceptable.

Only four ? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#35913424)

Also they face the problem of being exposed as liars.

Re:Only four ? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#35913442)

Or one big problem : their shit exploded.

Interesting radiation readings (3, Informative)

rrohbeck (944847) | about 3 years ago | (#35913488)

From http://theautomaticearth.blogspot.com/2011/04/april-20-2011-fukushima-review-of-ines.html [blogspot.com] :

On April 17th the same site had the following radiation levels recorded for units 1-3:

        Reactor 1
        Dry Well: 121.4 Sv/hr
        Suppression chamber: 97.5 Sv/hr

        Reactor 2
        Dry Well: N/A
        Suppression Chamber: 131 Sv/hr

        Reactor 3
        Dry Well: 253.2 Sv/hr
        Suppression Chamber: 103.9 Sv/hr
So that's going to take a while to cool off.

Re:Interesting radiation readings (1)

BrightSpark (1578977) | about 3 years ago | (#35913544)

To put this in perspective The Health Physics Society's position statement first adopted in January 1996, as revised in July 2010, states:[13] In accordance with current knowledge of radiation health risks, the Health Physics Society recommends against quantitative estimation of health risks below an individual dose of 5 rem in one year or a lifetime dose of 10 rem above that received from natural sources. Doses from natural background radiation in the United States average about 0.3 rem per year. A dose of 5 rem will be accumulated in the first 17 years of life and about 25 rem in a lifetime of 80 years. (See Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_no-threshold_model [wikipedia.org] ) For the SI people in the world, 1 rem is 100Sv. So in 5 hours or so in the suppression chanmber you would get a years dose of radiation. Mind you, it would be worse in the reaction zone of a coal-fired power station.

Re:Interesting radiation readings (1)

rrohbeck (944847) | about 3 years ago | (#35913584)

You are a couple orders of magnitude off. 5Sv is probably lethal and you'd get that in 3 minutes at 100Sv/h.

Re:Interesting radiation readings (1)

SpazmodeusG (1334705) | about 3 years ago | (#35913592)

A dose of 5 rem will be accumulated in the first 17 years of life and about 25 rem in a lifetime of 80 years.

So in 5 hours or so in the suppression chanmber you would get a years dose of radiation. Mind you, it would be worse in the reaction zone of a coal-fired power station.

5 hours would get you 17 years of radiation as per your own post. Where'd you get one year from?

Re:Interesting radiation readings (3, Insightful)

Fnkmaster (89084) | about 3 years ago | (#35913602)

Hehe, minor conversion error.

100 rem is 1 Sv, not the other way around. 1Sv of exposure is around the threshold for radiation poisoning and 8-10 Sv is considered untreatable with death guaranteed to follow shortly thereafter.

So a room at 100Sv/hour would give a guaranteed fatal exposure within about 90 seconds. Radiation poisoning would onset after 30 seconds of exposure.

So you can safely say that 100 Sv/hour is about the threshold for "instadeath".

Re:Interesting radiation readings (1)

Fnkmaster (89084) | about 3 years ago | (#35913632)

Grr, posting too early in the AM. 10 Sv would take around 6 minutes not 90 seconds. Still pretty damn close to "instadeath".

Re:Interesting radiation readings (3, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#35913684)

Um, no, 1 Sievert = 100 rem [nist.gov] , so in 5 hours you would get 50 k rem, and a normal lifetime dose in 9 seconds.
So according to the handy and authoritative ;-) XKCD radiation chart [xkcd.com] , the emergency workers would get a guaranteed fatal dose if they stayed for 5 minutes.
Assuming the Iodine has already decayed by now, I thought the next most abundant decay products are Cesium and Strontium with half-lives of 30 years, if that's true then they could work for an hour until fatal dose in about 109 years time. ( 100 Sv/hr present / 8 Sv/hr lethal = 12.5; log(12.5) / log(2) = 3.64; 3.64 * 30 years = 109 years, if I didn't make any mistakes). Then they could work for 15 minutes until a "emergency radiation worker" 100 mSv dose after waiting for a cooling-down period of 239 years (log (100 / 0.1 / 4) / log(2) * 30), amirite?

If they're not that patient then they have to use robots or something. Who's going to pay to keep the plant guarded from terrorists until the year 2250 until they can decommission it safely? Copyright doesn't even last that long (yet).
I find it very suspicious that nobody's even mentioned measured levels of Strontium-90 because it stores itself in the bones of people building new bone mass (i.e. children). They only talk about measuring Iodine and Cesium but Strontium should also be more than 5% of the fission products, almost as much as the measured Iodine (3%?) and Cesium (12%?)

litigating damages from holycost 420 years in (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#35913500)

the tab on this murder & mayhem spree is going to make the royal pains in the butt laugh even harder. what with all the pomp & circumstance in merry old gas shrouded england, & the colonies, today alone, repentance for any & all sort of still unproven strategic lifestops, no matter how many, will have to wait, until after the biblically scheduled world wide circumcision, originating in tokyo, mebotuh etc.... every southern baptist ruler in the chosen ones' (surface) world has their eyes glued to the still unproven to be kosher, dehymenation rituals, in merry old england.

Mitigating my ass. (2, Interesting)

unity100 (970058) | about 3 years ago | (#35913526)

Hear Dr. Michiko Kaku (yes, famous physicist) speak about fukujima. and what you hear wont ease your mind.

http://video.godlikeproductions.com/video/Japan_Nuclear_Crisis_Dr_Michio_Kaku_41311?id=5f6b79d071f3c70b40c [godlikeproductions.com]

there are people STILL downplaying this, believing what industry shills are drumming like morons.

So who's downplaying? (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#35913606)

I'd like those downplaying that to be forcibly enrolled to clean up the mess -- just to put their asses where their mouths are.

Too sad that more often than not those who reap the benefits are different from those who pay the price.

Pro nucular? OK, go there and help mopping up now.

Re:So who's downplaying? (1)

unity100 (970058) | about 3 years ago | (#35913822)

see, this 'cleaning up the mess' thing. this is not something that is local. its like the bp issue, but much much bigger. bp thing will kill a lot of ecosystems in a few decades, but, this fukujima radiation release wont take decades to kill.

Re:Mitigating my ass. (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#35913664)

Sorry, but I ain't gonna pay much attention to a guy that can't count to 4: "There are 3 types of civilisation: Type 1, Type 2 and Type 3. We're Type 0."

Re:Mitigating my ass. (0)

unity100 (970058) | about 3 years ago | (#35913818)

yees yess moron. dont pay much attention to a guy that is one of the foremost physicists of the planet. instead, pay attention to the industry shills being paid to deceive you. yes. thats the way smart people would do.

Re:Mitigating my ass. (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#35914060)

Michio Kaku may be very good at theoretical physics, but that does not make him an expert in all matters scientific. The publicity he's achieved over the years seems to have gone into his head a little too much. He likes to paint grand visions without really knowing or bothering to research the basic stuff behind whatever field of science he's asked to comment upon.

Re:Mitigating my ass. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#35914080)

famous != foremost. He is famous for being on television, not for his important contributions to physics.

Re:Mitigating my ass. (1)

jafiwam (310805) | about 3 years ago | (#35914146)

No kidding. The measurement of "should we listen to him?" applied to journalism would make Jeraldo the greatest journalist ever and applied to politics would make Jesse Ventura the greatest politician ever, and applied to families, would make Peter North the best husband ever. "Appeals from authority" are a shitty way to do science. unity10 loses again.

Re:Mitigating my ass. (2)

Quantum_Infinity (2038086) | about 3 years ago | (#35914096)

I do not respect this Kaku guy. He spends more time on TV than doing actual physics. He is a an attention whore. He is on every channel BBC, Science, Discovery, History and he has 'expert opinion' on everything. Moreover, he uses sensationalist language, often implying more extreme consequences of whatever he is talking about than is actually the case.

Re:Mitigating my ass. (1, Interesting)

mickwd (196449) | about 3 years ago | (#35914276)

Never heard of this guy before, but I did watch the interview.

Not impressed at all. As you say, very sensationalist, and a complete attention whore.

As someone still in favour of (new and existing) nuclear power, I hope the "anti-s" can come up with people better than this - they do have a a point of view worthy of serious consideration and debate. But guys like this aren't helping that. To be honest, I think the way this guy presents himself is damaging to the viewpoint he represents.

Re:Mitigating my ass. (1)

eyenot (102141) | about 3 years ago | (#35914780)

No, MY ass. The only thing Kaku is concerned (or specialized) in mitigating is his well-earned reputation as a fringe mascot.

"Don't Panic" after 42 days (2)

Alain Williams (2972) | about 3 years ago | (#35913568)

With a review after 42 days I was expecting to read "DON'T PANIC" in large, friendly letters ....

Re:"Don't Panic" after 42 days (1)

fukapon (469402) | about 3 years ago | (#35914028)

In Japan, I think they don't/won't panic. Patient is their default configuration.

Coal vs. Nuclear (5, Insightful)

ferrisoxide.com (1935296) | about 3 years ago | (#35913690)

Ignoring all the "coal kills more people" vs. "Pu is forever" arguments, the fact remains that all these fuels are essentially nasty, polluting "fossil" fuels (albeit one from dead suns).

Maybe Fukushima and Deep Water Horizon will mark a recognition of the level of care we need to take when handling these very finite resources. I hope so.

Re:Coal vs. Nuclear (1)

CrimsonAvenger (580665) | about 3 years ago | (#35914070)

Ignoring all the "coal kills more people" vs. "Pu is forever" arguments,

Pu is NOT forever. It decays into something else after a while.

Of course, the mercury in coal IS forever....

Re:Coal vs. Nuclear (4, Insightful)

gweihir (88907) | about 3 years ago | (#35914192)

Mercury is safe to eat in comparison to Pu. And Pu has a half-life that the distinction does not make a whole lot of difference. Also keep in mind that its half-life (24,100 yrs) the problem is not gone, but _halved_ and some other nice radioactive stuff created from it. Calling this "a while" is highly stupid. Also, it is quite possible (and done) to remove the mercury from the smoke.

Bottom line: Nuclear power is extremely expensive and deals with time-lines for containing its by-products that are far outside of what the human race can handle. The thing that really ticks me off is that by now it would have been cheaper to just shove all that money down the nuclear fanatic's throats and build up renewable energy source with what was left. And this stuff will continue to be expensive for > 100'000 years, a constant financial and ecological drain on humanity. Just so a few people without ethics could fill their coffers.

Can we give up on the Coal vs Nuclear distraction? (5, Insightful)

dbIII (701233) | about 3 years ago | (#35914274)

Except for in places where it isn't in the coal, which is just about everywhere outside of the USA because mercury really isn't all that common. Even when it is in the coal how is it going to get into your system when the flue gasses are scrubbed with water to remove the NOx and SOx which as a side effect very easily condenses the mercury removing it into ash dams or other pollution controls?
If you are going to say stuff like you do above in a public forum you really have a responsibility to say something tied to reality and know just a little bit about what you are talking about instead of just making shit up. When you are talking about a mercury threat a few orders of magnitude less than domestic light bulbs it really doesn't justify comparison with plutonium.
I'm aware that the plutonium is also usually very well contained so is usually also ignorable. We just happen to be discussing a situation where a significant amount of it may have escaped.
The "coal is dangerous" shit whenever nuclear is mentioned is getting very old. We all know it kills people, in fact there is almost a weekly death toll in direct mining accidents alone. However usually the comparison is brought up as a frankly very childish distraction along the lines of "little jimmy is being bad, why can't I be bad too". It's depressing and each time it is used I have to tell myself that the person who used it is a real human being and not just a juvenile lying weasel that thinks everyone else is stupid.

Re:Can we give up on the Coal vs Nuclear distracti (1)

Rising Ape (1620461) | about 3 years ago | (#35914486)

Since we have to produce power somehow, why is it unreasonable to compare the hazards of different major power sources?

Flue gas scrubbers, while pretty good, aren't 100% effective - so some pollutants are still released. Not to mention CO2.

Re:Coal vs. Nuclear (1)

JSBiff (87824) | about 3 years ago | (#35914220)

""fossil" fuels (albeit one from dead suns)."

Most of the atoms in your body came from dead stars. Without stars, the vast majority of the universe would be hydrogen (and I think, maybe, trace amounts of a few other 'light' elements were formed during the big bang) If you want to go down that ridiculous rhetorical route, we should kill you and bury you deep under ground so your 'dirty "fossil" fuel (albeit from dead suns)' body constituents can't pollute our environment. Except. . . oh wait, most of our environment is elements which are 'fossil fuel' from dead stars.

Re:Coal vs. Nuclear (1)

ferrisoxide.com (1935296) | about 3 years ago | (#35914656)

The rhetoric around nuclear energy being a fossil fuel is just pointing out that we appear to be using up the energy reserves way too quickly. Uranium is comparable to oil in the sense that once it's gone it's gone.. Maybe not completely comparable, in that at least the Earth has the capacity to renew its oil reserves - albeit not in a timeframe that of use to any of us.

As you point out, most of the atoms in my body do indeed come from dead stars. The are unfortunately not a reliable energy source in themselves, but given enough time I might be able to decompose into some useful hydrocarbon based fuel. I might even be lighting the lamp your distant descendants use to read about the short-lived era when a handful of generations chewed through vastly more than their fair share of the planet's wealth.

At any rate, I hope that nothing I leave behind taints the Earth. Given the way I live I don't think that's likely, but if I can make rational decisions about how and why I use the resources that are available to me I can leave those who come after me with fewer things to worry about. Which was my original point, cutting through the rhetoric.

The roadmap document confirms a meltdown. (3, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#35913712)

From the roadmap document:

"Current Status [2] (Units 1 to 3) High likelihood of
small leakage of steam containing radioactive
materials through the gap of PCV caused by
high temperature."

The only way the pressure containment vessel could have a hole all the way through it 'caused by high temperature', which is leaking to the atmosphere, is if some of the fuel has melted and pooled. Units two and three show atmospheric pressure in the reactor primary containment.
See: http://atmc.jp/plant/vessel/?n=3 and http://atmc.jp/plant/vessel/?n=2

Re:The roadmap document confirms a meltdown. (1)

mdsolar (1045926) | about 3 years ago | (#35914398)

Or it has warped or cracked in some way from thermal stress. Reactors are not designed to lose coolant so high temperature tolerance may not have been included in the specs.

It's worse than herpes (Just) (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#35914006)

The waste products aren't recyclable by any technology yet conceivable by man. They remain inimicable to life for many generations. We already have hundreds of thousands of tons of used fuel lying around whilst people hope for a solution to "just come along". And that's a best case scenario. This isn't just our problem, it's a problem for future generations. IF we rationed our energy useage until sensible alternatives come along, and they will, (we are an inventive species), then we could just not avoid doing that nuclear thing. BUT the same thinking that says credit is a good idea, also says we need nuclear power now. Everything else I read is just distraction... I feel like I may come across as a "lone looney" writing this, but I'm right. And you know it.

Re:It's worse than herpes (Just) (0)

DrKnark (1536431) | about 3 years ago | (#35914778)

The waste products aren't recyclable by any technology yet conceivable by man.

Actually, the technology has been conceived and already used in some places [wikipedia.org] . While it is not yet applicable in a commercial scale, the technology does exist.

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