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More Windows Phone Update Problems

timothy posted more than 3 years ago | from the both-of-them dept.

Bug 103

angry tapir writes "Yet another problem has cropped up preventing some Windows Phone 7 users from getting two software updates, adding a new chapter to the update saga that started in February."

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Windows Phone 7 (-1, Troll)

x*yy*x (2058140) | more than 3 years ago | (#35983782)

This one is again one of those overhyped slashdot summaries..

If you read the actual story, you'd see that that it is fault of Samsung and Focus. AND even they tell its because the hardware doesn't work good with them. Just yesterday we had a story on how Apple fucks up old iPhones [slashdot.org] and now we have a story on how new OS updates aren't delivered to incompatible phones? Seriously, pick which one is good. Cripling your old phone with too heavy features or not providing updates.

What is great about WP7 is its support for developers. You really cant just go wrong with that. Microsoft has always been the number one in giving developer support. From Visual Studio to C# and WP7 API. Combine this with Nokia's great hardware and I think they're going to get great support this coming year. I get the M$ hate, but just check it - it's great thing. So much better than Android.

This is beside the fact that its not really common to expect any updates at all from your mobile phone manufacturer. Buy the phone on the merits you get, not some updates. That is common sense.

Re:Windows Phone 7 (2)

migla (1099771) | more than 3 years ago | (#35983804)

>I get the M$ hate, but just check it - it's great thing. So much better than Android.

And Mussolini made the trains run on time.

Re:Windows Phone 7 (2)

Shikaku (1129753) | more than 3 years ago | (#35983806)

How did you type all that in less than a minute?

Re:Windows Phone 7 (5, Insightful)

Znork (31774) | more than 3 years ago | (#35983894)

It's quite obvious that Microsoft is astro-turfing heavily. They like to get a couple of these in early on every story. They're getting a little bit better, but phrases like "What is great about WP7 is its support for developers." are easily identifiable as marketing drone speech.

Most likely they have a bunch of evangelists and/or subcontractors whose only job is to monitor and comment on tech sites; the debacle when Vista marketing got run over by the realitytrain made it quite obvious how expensive it could be to lose control over the narrative.

And with windows phone being a warmed over windows mobile they certainly have their job cut out for them...

Re:Windows Phone 7 (-1, Troll)

x*yy*x (2058140) | more than 3 years ago | (#35983928)

Sorry to burst your bubble, but no. I personally choose the program I like for the job. Open source, closed source, that doesn't matter. I would choose open source if that was better for the job.

But thinking everyone who says any good about Microsoft or any other big companies is ridiculous here on slashdot. I can't just but think its some basement dwellers who have no experience in real work.. wrong? Yeah, you are too. Just see how real stuff works.

Re:Windows Phone 7 (1)

Nikker (749551) | more than 3 years ago | (#35984036)

Common man really? I mean really. Come up with some constructive criticism and stop with the bs. Those who program know that regardless of the platform it really is mostly the same. You might impress some first year CS student with a drag and drop programming model but eventually they will have to get deeper than that. All programming is different but sandwiching your opinion with take it or die make you sound not only like a shill as I mentioned above but a bad one. You are wasting our time please leave.

Re:Windows Phone 7 (0)

x*yy*x (2058140) | more than 3 years ago | (#35984082)

Well, for example, have you ever tried to program for Symbian? It *so much* pain in the ass. I transferred directly from that. Just making project and getting everything so easily (both debugging and actually stuff running) was so easy. You might not like WP7, but I had to go thru mobile programming in the early 2000's. And it was *not* nice. What WP7 and Apple offers now is 1000x better than it was.. just ask any mobile programmer. If they still have their brains working :D

Re:Windows Phone 7 (1)

h4rr4r (612664) | more than 3 years ago | (#35984206)

Nice way to leave out the real competition. Programming for android is nice as well by the way.

Re:Windows Phone 7 (1)

PaladinAlpha (645879) | more than 3 years ago | (#35984538)

Yeah, because Symbian was what you were complaining about in your origina-- oh, that's right, you were talking about Android, which is also 1000x better than "it was."

By the by, lying by omission is still lying, and pretending innocence is morally corrupt. What does that say about the company that employs you to write this stuff?

Re:Windows Phone 7 (0)

x*yy*x (2058140) | more than 3 years ago | (#35984948)

By the by, lying by omission is still lying, and pretending innocence is morally corrupt. What does that say about the company that employs you to write this stuff?

No one is employing me. I employ myself. And what I've wrote is just my own experience with several mobile programming languages.

Re:Windows Phone 7 (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35985192)

By the by, lying by omission is still lying, and pretending innocence is morally corrupt.

In my book, there is nothing worse that a paranoid, tin-foil hat wearing faggot like you. Slashdot users aren't limited to the shrimp-dicked FOSS zealots and Linux knob gobblers you associate with. Deal with it.

Re:Windows Phone 7 (1)

h4rr4r (612664) | more than 3 years ago | (#35984170)

So you just happen to work for a marketing company?

No one mentioned open or closed, more MS has changed marketing BS in your post though.

Re:Windows Phone 7 (1)

giuseppemag (1100721) | more than 3 years ago | (#35983948)

Actually, dev support is possibly *the only* truly great thing in wp7...

A very interesting move is the integration between Silverlight and XNA: this will allow (I am developing such a game right now!) web-based 3D accelerated games that are also playable on wp7, the XBox and as a desktop Windows application. The framework, at least from the pov of an indie game dev, is truly exceptional and very little out there compares favorably. Unity, maybe, but then it's an engine rather than a framework and so it offers less generality...

Re:Windows Phone 7 (1)

Bogtha (906264) | more than 3 years ago | (#35984084)

A very interesting move is the integration between Silverlight and XNA: this will allow (I am developing such a game right now!) web-based 3D accelerated games

Is it really a web-based game, or is it merely a web-delivered game? Because I see Flash and Silverlight developers confuse these all the time. Is the game based on the fundamental technologies of the web - e.g. are you delivering human-readable code, or are objects in the game discrete resources served via HTTP, or are levels addressable via URI, or is the environment represented by a DOM? In short, does it look anything like this [w3.org] ? If not, you aren't basing your game on the web, you are delivering the game via the web. Just because you can get a chunk of non-human-readable code to execute and display something in a browser window by use of a plugin, it doesn't make it "web based". The only thing you are doing is streamlining the obtain->install->run cycle for a non-web-based game.

Re:Windows Phone 7 (1)

SQLGuru (980662) | more than 3 years ago | (#35984462)

While I agree with this.

The gp's point that the Microsoft stack is really well integrated where code written for the desktop and the web and the Xbox and WP7 and Silverlight can all be shared quite easily is also spot on.

Re:Windows Phone 7 (3, Insightful)

Bogtha (906264) | more than 3 years ago | (#35984652)

Yes, I get the point, but in my experience this is one of the worst things about the Microsoft stack, by far. I've got no problem sharing infrastructure at the CLR level, but once you go beyond that to try to make applications written for one paradigm fit anywhere the CLR is, you end up with an unholy mess. The "integration" doesn't make things easier, it just forces you into one colossal fuckup instead of a more sensible approach of platform-specific front-ends over a portable base.

Microsoft's approach to web frameworks is an ideal example of this. They tried to make developing a website like developing a desktop application; and web forms, postbacks, and all of that gigantic mountain of failure was the result. ASP.NET development is about as far away from the architectural principles of the web as you can get without dumping the technology altogether and using plugins instead. They tried to abstract away HTTP when it's one of the most fundamental parts of the web, they did a shitty, incomplete job because the architecture of the web and traditional desktop applications are entirely different, and they ended up with a failure that they are now attempting to replace altogether.

So when somebody comes along and says that they are making a game that can be "web-based" because Silverlight's integration lets them do that easily, my immediate reaction is that it's not "an interesting move", it's a continuation of the same terrible fucked up attitude that Microsoft don't show any real signs of shaking. Hence the question - is this actually a web-based game - i.e. does Silverlight's "integration" really deliver, or is it the same old fuckup they always come out with?

Re:Windows Phone 7 (1)

giuseppemag (1100721) | more than 3 years ago | (#35986488)

It's just a very cheap way to make my users try a full, free (ad-supported), on-demand version of my game by using the same assets of the Desktop/Windows and Xbox versions. Also, I can let paying users access the SL out of browser system to let them install the application and use it offline, without even having to build an installer package. Development time is very costly for an indie team, and for us this is already making a large difference, especially given how happy our publisher is about this opportunity...

Re:Windows Phone 7 (1)

shutdown -p now (807394) | more than 3 years ago | (#35989090)

Ironically, on WP7 it wouldn't be web-based in any sense, because, while WP7 apps are written in Silverlight (or XNA), WP7 browser does not support Silverlight as a plugin.

How many Microsoft shills are there? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35983810)

I wonder how many people it takes to read Slashdot and get first post defending Microsoft every time that windows shortcomings are mentioned

May just be fanboys (0)

dbIII (701233) | more than 3 years ago | (#35983866)

They may just be fanboys - you know the type that will never hear anything bad about their favourite thing but they've also never actually paid for a copy of it.

Re:May just be fanboys (1)

clang_jangle (975789) | more than 3 years ago | (#35984234)

If you do any windows work at all as an admin you get the latest version of windows if you need it paid for by the client. Besides, every non-Mac desktop and laptop computer I own came with a windows license, so what difference does it make? If you own a non-Apple x86 machine odds are greater than 95% you also own a windows license (yes, I know about people building PCs and those few who buy bare metal, they are a drop in the bucket).

Re:May just be fanboys (1)

dbIII (701233) | more than 3 years ago | (#35984472)

If you do any MS Windows work at all as an admin you get to stop being a fanboy and come down to reality very quickly.
You know the guys I'm talking about - the ones that installed Vista from a torrent and then other people had to try to get it to work for them.

Re:May just be fanboys (1)

clang_jangle (975789) | more than 3 years ago | (#35984714)

Oh, those. Yes, I've met a few...

Re:How many Microsoft shills are there? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35986974)

It's probably less than thirty, though with many accounts each of course. It can't be many because there are times of day, particularly the first day of a holiday weekend, when they fail to gain control of the narrative quickly enough.

Many of the folks who we think of as astroturfers are actually just enthusiastic amateur supporters. The break from reality is just as deep with these folks, but they mess up. They don't have the messaging down as well as the pros and tend to get into long arguments that go off-message, show a clear lack of history, or invite people who clearly know what they're talking about to share proof. This is obviously counterproductive when proof is immediately forthcoming.

Re:Windows Phone 7 (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35983824)

Wow M$ marketing is quick today....

Re:Windows Phone 7 (0)

thetoadwarrior (1268702) | more than 3 years ago | (#35983840)

Please don't throw a chair at anyone, Mr.B.

Re:Windows Phone 7 (1)

h4rr4r (612664) | more than 3 years ago | (#35983918)

I pick the third option, fix the OS for that phone. I am running 2.3.3 on a Droid. WP7 won't be like that, it will be as locked down as apple without any of the upside.

Re:Windows Phone 7 (1)

ScrewMaster (602015) | more than 3 years ago | (#35987322)

I pick the third option, fix the OS for that phone. I am running 2.3.3 on a Droid. WP7 won't be like that, it will be as locked down as apple without any of the upside.

I agree with you 100% except for the upside.

Re:Windows Phone 7 (5, Insightful)

Nikker (749551) | more than 3 years ago | (#35984002)

Jebsus man the shill factor on that comment went over 9000. You posted a press release style 3 paragraph comment the same time as the article (8:21). You set a preemptive attack on the hardware manufacturers. A strawman against Apple. Then out of nowhere a plug for developers on a developers forum again with the preemptive against 'haters'.

Is obvious shill obvious? Comment below!

Re:Windows Phone 7 (1)

gbjbaanb (229885) | more than 3 years ago | (#35984078)

developers, developers, developers, developers, developers....

consumers? fuck 'em.

developers, developers, developers, developers, developers, developers, developers.

---

sigh, ok, positive comment to beat /. filters: its no good giving developers everything they could possibly want if no-one wants to buy the stuff they make. Its no good saying how great a phone is if those poor fools who bought one end up with a brick at the first update. Android or iPhone - they work, are very popular, have won the battle. If MS didn't have huge pots of cash from their monopolies, they wouldn't even think of entering this marketplace - no way would any other company do so.

Re:Windows Phone 7 (3, Interesting)

symbolset (646467) | more than 3 years ago | (#35985416)

Well obviously one of them will be along presently to point out that "nobody knows" how well WP7 is doing since release because Microsoft won't tell us. Since I know, I may as well nip that one in the bud: Abysmal [j.mp] is not an exaggeration. Panglozz has been scraping the Facebook user statistics weekly since November for all the major phone platforms, and has assembled that delightful analytical spreadsheet that tells us week-by-week how it's doing relative to other platforms.

Facebook user stats may not be perfect, but it's a huge sample and lines up perfectly with other reports, which seem to be bending over backwards to avoid stating the obvious truth. The phone is not selling. After six months WP7 total facebook users don't add up to two days worth of increase in iPhone and Android platforms. The user base is not there, and ultimately that's what developers care about. They don't care if it's fun to write apps for the phone. They care if there are users to use the apps - and there aren't enough to speak of. The trend is clearly in decline, so not only are the users not there, they're not ever going to be there. Writing Windows Phone apps is not going to be profitable for nearly any developer, and it's not going to make them famous either. Nokia can't save this.

Some of the numbers we've seen for WP7 are totally bogus. Obviously if nearly three times as many people downloaded the software development kit for WP7 [knowyourmobile.com] as use WP7 for Facebook [allfacebook.com] , something is amiss. Phone software development is not a 3x more common activity than Facebook posting. Somebody is trying to make it look like the thing is more popular than it actually is - perhaps by including the WP7 SDK with some other tools.

Which makes me glad that Panglozz is keeping track of this for us. It may be a little bit OCD, but it's helpful.

Re:Windows Phone 7 (1)

Missing.Matter (1845576) | more than 3 years ago | (#35986154)

The trend is clearly in decline, so not only are the users not there, they're not ever going to be there.

Not sure how you got this from the data, which clearly shows monotonic growth in WP7, either looking at the native app or the facebook app.

Just in raw numbers (1)

symbolset (646467) | more than 3 years ago | (#35986468)

3,368 new users per day for period ending 1/24 is not equal to 1,711 new users per day for week ending 4/26 - and seasonal adjustments aren't going to let you rationalize the decline. That's not monotonic growth - it's declining growth. Given the expansion of the market overall it's also rapidly declining share. On the third tab, "Chart of Delta MAU/Day" there are graphs that will help you visualize the rate of declining growth versus the longer term average.

With Android and iOS each adding over 140,000 monthly active Facebook users per day and trending up - not down - it's a disaster both in raw units and in market share.

Stack these numbers up against the number of "points of sale" and it's easy to imagine that it's not every day somebody comes in and buys a WP7 device.

Of course if you really want to know what's going on you can download the data and crunch the trendlines yourself.

Re:Windows Phone 7 (1)

shutdown -p now (807394) | more than 3 years ago | (#35989112)

Obviously if nearly three times as many people downloaded the software development kit for WP7 [knowyourmobile.com] as use WP7 for Facebook [allfacebook.com], something is amiss. Phone software development is not a 3x more common activity than Facebook posting.

Not necessarily. Many developers on MS stack have downloaded the toolset simply because it's free, and they wanted to see what's it all about - maybe write a hello world app. Most of those likely didn't have a WP7 phone when they downloaded (heck, the toolkit was available for download long before the first phones shipped!), and many probably never got one. So that number obviously doesn't correspond directly to the number of active developers publishing apps to the Marketplace.

You should know better (1)

symbolset (646467) | more than 3 years ago | (#35989270)

Shutdown, what are you doing? You know better than to argue with me. You've been around here long enough to know that I don't make definitive statements unless I have the high ground. Your team must be growing desperate.

Out of respect for our friendship I'm going to let this one go unless you try to spell that as some concession of your point.

Re:You should know better (1)

shutdown -p now (807394) | more than 3 years ago | (#35989486)

I don't work on WP7 in any way, shape or form. As far as it goes, I'm just an annoyed customer (both as a user and as a dev) same as everyone else.

I'm not arguing with your numbers, either, nor the overall problematic uptake of WP7 in general.

I'm merely pointing out that your assessment of SDK download numbers as "bogus" is not necessarily valid, and the supporting arguments are weak. Namely, you assume that phone development is a rarer activity than Facebook use - which is certainly true in general, but does not have to be so for WP7, because, at the moment, there is likely to be more developers potentially interested in exploring the platform (to the point of downloading the SDK and playing with it, but not actually buying the phone) than there are people actually using the phone as, you know, a phone.

The reason is simply that most developer who primarily do .NET in any capacity would fall into "vaguely curious" category, whereas Facebook usage reflects the number of people actually owning the phone. And they aren't exactly selling like hot cakes, not when you can get iPhone or a good Android phone for the same price. Add to that the fact that development side of things was marketed long before consumer side, and, in my opinion, much more successfully as well.

Keep in mind also that a big chunk of WP7 phone owners comes out of MSFT employees and their families, who get it for free - and of course the very first thing any Microsoftie does is download the SDK, too, even if they never actually do anything useful with it (my personal extent of WP7 development was a simple JS REPL; I never even bothered to publish it).

Given all this, why is it surprising that there is 1 million SDK downloads? It's not - it's just not a meaningful metric of phone popularity at all, definitely not for users, but also not even for real, app-publishing devs. It's solely a metric of hype generated about the platform among developers.

Look at it the other way around. If there are 3 times more "potentially interested" developers for the phone than there are users of the phone, what does it say about it? I dare say that it doesn't make for a picture that's any more rosy than your Facebook usage numbers...

Re:Windows Phone 7 (1)

Heir Of The Mess (939658) | more than 3 years ago | (#35989608)

Actually I don't use my WP7 for facebook, I use OneNote, the calendar functionality which is great because its intergrated with the hotmail calendar, watching pre recorded tv shows, some business accounting stuff in an excel spreadsheet that I've set up on my desktop and put on my phone, e-mail, weather, stock trading. Facebook is something I update and read when I have some idle time at a desktop PC. It could be that facebook junkies tend to be more likely to use an iPhone and the Android clone of it.

Re:Windows Phone 7 (1)

ScrewMaster (602015) | more than 3 years ago | (#35987306)

So much better than Android.

Yah. Right

This is beside the fact that its not really common to expect any updates at all from your mobile phone manufacturer.

Sure. That's because Samsung has a habit of abandoning their OS releases and their customers. That's not the case for, well, pretty much everyone else. And so far as I'm concerned, I run a third-party Android ROM and get better support from an open-source group than any of the big boys including Microsoft.

Update saga? (1)

giuseppemag (1100721) | more than 3 years ago | (#35983830)

wtf? What on Earth does that mean?

A software has compatibility issues on some specific hardware. Amazing and never seen before. So what?

Re:Update saga? (5, Funny)

nstlgc (945418) | more than 3 years ago | (#35984034)

It means it's Micro$oft bashing time!

Re:Update saga? (4, Insightful)

gbjbaanb (229885) | more than 3 years ago | (#35984112)

it means that all those WP7 developers might have the latest, coolest, Silverlight based .NET development tools, but once something doesn't work the way the pointy-clicky development environment says it will, they're pretty much clueless.

It means that they can't get an update to work on a handful of phone models running 1 version of the software. (think what would have happened if they had the hundreds of models that Android has been released on).

It means that dumbing down development only leads to very poor engineering practices. Most of the time you don't notice, but when you need that old-style expertise, you really miss it.

Re:Update saga? (1, Informative)

giuseppemag (1100721) | more than 3 years ago | (#35984348)

Silverlight is not "pointy clicky development". It is a clean Reactive Programming model that strongly emphasizes the distinction between general layout, data templates (how you represent your app objects) and application logic. The three layers are put together, respectively, by XAML, templates and styles, and the very powerful mechanism for data-bindings.

I do not wish to offend, but you may not know much about Silverlight. Up until a couple of versions ago it did not even have a visual plugin for Visual Studio...

Re:Update saga? (1)

VortexCortex (1117377) | more than 3 years ago | (#35984490)

Silverlight is not "pointy clicky development". It is a clean Reactive Programming model that [blah blah blah, heh, funny buzzword soup, LMAO]

I do not wish to offend, but you may not know much about Silverlight. Up until a couple of versions ago it did not even have a visual plugin for Visual Studio...

Oh, shiiii--! You weren't making a joke? That wasn't supposed to be funny?!

I'm sorry... it's just that I'm an ASM/C/C++/Java/Perl/Ruby/OCAML/Haskel/JavaScript programmer... and I've tried Silverlight...

Re:Update saga? (0)

giuseppemag (1100721) | more than 3 years ago | (#35984632)

Well, I know a shitload of languages too: C/C++/C#/Java/OCaML/Haskell/Lisp/Scheme, so my intellectual dick does not look shorter than yours...

Btw, I know the difference between a library and a language and so I know that it's quite irrelevant how many languages you know to judge a software library.

Re:Update saga? (1)

VortexCortex (1117377) | more than 3 years ago | (#35985538)

Well then, you must certainly recognize that all the features that you mentioned about Silverlight were specifically designed so that it would be simpler to make Silverlight a back-end for a "pointy-clicky" front end language "studio" (IDE).

Come on... being familiar with other languages you must be able to see this -- right? I mean... "XAML, templates, styles, and data-bindings." All designed from the ground up to be easily representable in an IDE that already uses those concepts to perform refactoring....

The fact that MS Visual Studio only recently got a plug-in for Silverlight doesn't mean that they hadn't planned on adding it all along. It also doesn't mean that they didn't reuse some of their existing "language agnostic" IDE codebase to implement the features in Silverlight... Or, maybe I'm wrong, and you're right: Maybe the left hand of MS really doesn't ever know what the right hand is doing...

The fact that you said the language wasn't "pointy-clicky" then listed all the features that specifically enable it to be so was humorous to me. Honestly, I thought it was a clever bit of irony on your part... It seems I've overestimating your sense of humor.

Also note: I can create Silverlight applications, but I don't claim to be a Silverlight programmer... It just feels so far removed from programming -- more like web design ( sort of like (X)HTML + JavaScript -- except that both of those can be used completely independently of each other ).

Re:Update saga? (1)

giuseppemag (1100721) | more than 3 years ago | (#35985758)

Honestly I don't get the point of your snarkiness about my humour...

Mostly I do the following: I write reusable meta-libraries in F# that generate the same code-behind that others would repeatedly build by hand in Visual Studio with C#. So I clearly hear what you are saying, but rather than conclude negatively that an easy-peasy avenue makes a library "dumb", I appreciate the fact that the underlying model is clean enough to allow both library makers and "regular coders" to be productive. More often than not you find libraries that are good for idiots but are rather poor representations of whatever they wish to represent, other times you find libraries which are pure shit, and rarely you find stuff which is clean and elegant but which arguably has no possible practical use (http://www.haskell.org/arrows/ :D)

Re:Update saga? (1)

caywen (942955) | more than 3 years ago | (#35988868)

Come on... being familiar with other languages you must be able to see this -- right? I mean... "XAML, templates, styles, and data-bindings." All designed from the ground up to be easily representable in an IDE that already uses those concepts to perform refactoring....

XAML was designed from the ground up to be a declarative way to express object heirarchy and relationships. Nothing to do with an IDE.
Templates were designed as a way to customize declared UI at a visual level. Nothing to do with an IDE.
Styles were designed as a simple way to set properties on objects and react to property changes. Nothing to do with an IDE.
Data Binding was designed as a way to declaratively ensure that properties and UI can reflect data declaratively. Nothing to do with an IDE.

In fact, if you dig, you'll find that IDE extensions in XAML to do things like design-time sizes and settings are done in a completely different XML namespace than XAML.

I really don't think you know what you're talking about in terms of that.

Re:Update saga? (2)

0123456 (636235) | more than 3 years ago | (#35984854)

The three layers are put together, respectively, by XAML, templates and styles, and the very powerful mechanism for data-bindings.

Oh joy.

That sounds like the kind of projects I've had to try to support in the past where everything was configured with a bazillion XML files and the original developers were long gone so you could never figure out which objects were calling which other objects without spending two hours deciphering the linked list of XML lookups.

Re:Update saga? (1)

giuseppemag (1100721) | more than 3 years ago | (#35984972)

Sounds like a problem with the project developer...

Re:Update saga? (1)

FreelanceWizard (889712) | more than 3 years ago | (#35985184)

Basically, the XAML defines the UI, while the codebehind defines the logic. In the XAML, you can write binding expressions that declaratively bind values from objects to the UI or between objects in UI (if, for instance, you wanted two panes of a window to have the same size). XAML includes a style system that allows you to control rendering, and you can control that through binding expressions.

It's hardly different than other development frameworks that separate the codebehind from the visual definition, and it's nothing like a mass of undocumented XML that defines objects calling each other.

Sure, you can strictly write Model-View-Viewmodel code, which is what I think the GP was talking about, but that has pros (less coupling between the UI and the data model, not repeating yourself) and cons (much more complex, requires some additional classes that aren't in the framework).

Re:Update saga? (2)

gbjbaanb (229885) | more than 3 years ago | (#35986572)

or to put it another way, its Microsoft's version of the internet!

HTML is used to define the UI while codebehind (javascript) defines the logic. HTML includes a style system that allows you to control rendering. etc etc. There's not much difference in concept between them.

However, the binding between UI and objects is horrible and I expect MS will come up with 'XAML binding v2' in the next release of .net and everyone will say how crap the old way was - it reminds me of nasty XML elements being used instead of something simple.The objects are a nuisance too - I can't see why you have to define an object, property pair and then bind that to a UI element. MFC was so much simpler! (ie 1 variable, 1 line of code and you're done, much simpler when you're adding a load of UI elements, but I digress there :) )

I think if you're going to work with a html-style system, you might as well do it in HTML and get the benefits of the standard internet rather than the usual MS-only lockin. They've already realised this themselves, only to reverse the decision when they realised that WP7 used Silverlight (d'oh!). if WP7 doesn't make it, I wonder if Silverlight will go back to being canned in favour of HTML5. Again.

Re:Update saga? (1)

shutdown -p now (807394) | more than 3 years ago | (#35989142)

You're confusing XAML with XML configs. XAML is not a config, it's a markup language (XML-based, yes) for GUI. It's actually very similar in concept to OS X / Cocoa .xib files, or QtQuick QML (except that this last one isn't XML) - all ultimately represent trees of objects. There are no XML configs in Silverlight, unless you add them yourself.

Re:Update saga? (1)

jo42 (227475) | more than 3 years ago | (#35985494)

Silverlight is not "pointy clicky development". It is a clean Reactive Programming model that strongly emphasizes the distinction between general layout, data templates (how you represent your app objects) and application logic. The three layers are put together, respectively, by XAML, templates and styles, and the very powerful mechanism for data-bindings.

And will only run well on mobile devices when we have quad core mobile devices with 4GB of RAM in two or three years...

Re:Update saga? (1)

giuseppemag (1100721) | more than 3 years ago | (#35985700)

Uh? It runs *already well* in wp7?

Re:Update saga? (1)

cbhacking (979169) | more than 3 years ago | (#35988702)

Wow, clueless much? This update fiasco is ridiculous, but that's no reason to spread such complete bullshit. It has nothing whatsoever to do with

  • WP7 developers, because this is an OS update, not an app.
  • Silverlight based .NET development tools, because this is the native ARM code of the OS, not the app-layer stuff.
  • Pointy-clicky development environment... WTF? That doesn't even really apply to Silverlight, much less to an OS update
  • "pretty much clueless" is an easy insult to swing at a company like Microsoft, but it just isn't valid. Like it or not, they employ a ton of quite good software developers
  • Dumbing down development... WTF? Even if this stuff was .NET (it's not), MS still has a ton of people who do OS development in C and C++.

Your post is so riddled with sheer stupidity it's almost like you're trolling the anti-MS folks, although your line about "can't get an update to work on a haldful of phone models" is pretty close. Out of 10 phone models, 2 are having trouble with the update. That's actually still a better percentage of phones receiving updates than Android has, but nonetheless pretty bad.

Re:Update saga? (1)

Locutus (9039) | more than 3 years ago | (#35984878)

the clue should have been the mention of previous news of problems in February. The use of saga in this case is defined as a long drawn out process or story. As the story goes, there have been promises of updates to the software because it was shipped missing features now common on the other platforms and it was explained how and what was required to get those updates. Some problems with the initial updates caused the vendor to stop the updates and some users didn't get updates. Some users were left with devices which no longer worked and had to be replaced or repaired. More promises up updates to the update process and what not were made. Now we hear there are problems with the latest updates. Or so the saga goes. And BTW, the update saga continues.

LoB

Big Deal (0)

Rockets84 (2047424) | more than 3 years ago | (#35983834)

So MS are having issues with an update to some vendors devices - big deal. At least they are not waiting for Telco's or hardware vendors to possibly suppy the updates to their users like Android or Blackberry. And I'll give you even money that they will support older handsets for longer than Apple does.

Re:Big Deal (2)

jonwil (467024) | more than 3 years ago | (#35984172)

Carriers are still able to block/delay updates in some cases. (and have done so)

Even Apple still has to listen to carriers when it comes to updates in some instances (especially more so with the Verizon iPhone I suspect)

Re:Big Deal (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35984488)

Sorry, the Jesus Phone has no such issues when it comes to updating.

Re:Big Deal (0)

ScrewMaster (602015) | more than 3 years ago | (#35987340)

Sorry, the Jesus Phone has no such issues when it comes to updating.

Neither does my T-Mobile G2 running Cyanogenmod.

I just saw this in a fortune cookie... (4, Insightful)

dachshund (300733) | more than 3 years ago | (#35983890)

"If you have time to rigorously test only one component of your software platform, make sure it's the update functionality."

Words to live by.

Re:I just saw this in a fortune cookie... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35983914)

Or find a cheap workaround, like offering your software only for one type of hardware, like Apple does.

Re:I just saw this in a fortune cookie... (1)

Nikker (749551) | more than 3 years ago | (#35984058)

He's talking about the ability not to fubar the device after a bad update FYI. This way you can push a fix for the fix with out having to goto the field with a backpack full of laptops and replacement parts to get it going again :)

Re:I just saw this in a fortune cookie... (4, Insightful)

RobbieThe1st (1977364) | more than 3 years ago | (#35984126)

It'd be solved /really/ easily if MS simply mandated a "unbrickable" device, something like how the Nokia N900 does it: A special bootloader that, when booting with the USB cable plugged in, can boot from code transferred over USB, and chainload that into a proper flash.
Then when you brick your device, just flash it back to the last version and go on with your life.
But that'd be too easy. Especially as it might let someone run *gasp* custom firmware! Abd we can't have that!

Re:I just saw this in a fortune cookie... (1)

Nikker (749551) | more than 3 years ago | (#35984850)

You mean something like a BIOS / HDD combo PC hardware has been using since the 80's ? So crazy it just might work!

Re:I just saw this in a fortune cookie... (1)

ScrewMaster (602015) | more than 3 years ago | (#35987342)

You mean something like a BIOS / HDD combo PC hardware has been using since the 80's ? So crazy it just might work!

Something like an Android device with a recovery partition, like the venerable G1 from HTC had?

Re:I just saw this in a fortune cookie... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35984446)

Where do you get your fortune cookies from? Foxxconn?

Re:I just saw this in a fortune cookie... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35985706)

And here was me thinking it was a clean uninstall...

This is really bad (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35983970)

For the 20 people that have actually bought windows phone sevens!

Re:This is really bad (1)

clang_jangle (975789) | more than 3 years ago | (#35984260)

Oh yeah? Well just you wait. Eventually the carriers will make them the default "giveaway" phones for new accounts, and when that happens, bang, zoom win(ce)7 will be everywhere. For a few months, anyway...

Windows Phone = Update problems. (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35983982)

The words "Windows Phone" and "Update problems" are interchangeable, and mean the same thing. Windows Phone is nothing but problems and should be avoided at all cost.

The platform will soon be discontinued, as it is not selling. This happened before with Microsoft's Kin phones. Users got burned.

Re:Windows Phone = Update problems. (1)

Voyager529 (1363959) | more than 3 years ago | (#35984534)

*sigh*

Every time the Kin comes up, I feel compulsed to write up the three sentence summary of the problem that was obviously overlooked by anyone using the Kin as a means of bashing MS...

The Kin cost $199, required a $30 data plan, and was a feature phone with facebook and twitter clients.
The Blackberry Curve cost $199, though almost invariably had some sort of gimmick involving rebates, buy-one-get-one-free, or similar. It required a $30 data plan too, but had an actual web browser (didn't say a GOOD web browser), music and video player, MicroSD card, facebook/twitter clients, and BBM.

The Kin was a flop, but if it had a music player and only cost $5 for the data plan, the story might have been a bit different.

Re:Windows Phone = Update problems. (1)

UnknowingFool (672806) | more than 3 years ago | (#35985326)

The Kin was a flop, but if it had a music player and only cost $5 for the data plan, the story might have been a bit different.

I would disagree with this. The Kin didn't fit into any real category. It cost as much as a smartphone, but you couldn't get 3rd party smartphone applications like other phones. It had built-in applications, but the ones that existed were not very good. It even lacked basic functionality like a calendar and contact lists which I had on my dumb phone ten years ago. The whole concept of the phone was a flawed as it was between a smartphone and a dumbphone but appealed to virtually no one. Teens (whom the phone was targeted) could get a much cheaper dumb phone or a pay the same price and get a smartphone.

Re:Windows Phone = Update problems. (1)

Missing.Matter (1845576) | more than 3 years ago | (#35986174)

It cost as much as a smartphone, but you couldn't get 3rd party smartphone applications like other phones.

Which is why he says if it cost $5 it might be a different story. You disagreed with him and then re-stated his point.

Re:Windows Phone = Update problems. (1)

UnknowingFool (672806) | more than 3 years ago | (#35986938)

And you didn't read the rest of what I wrote. Even it only had a $5 dollar data plan, it still cost $199 which is a lot for the targeted demographic. If you lowered to the price to be a dumb phone (which Verizon had to so to get rid of their inventory), it wasn't very good as a dumb phone. It still didn't have very good applications and lacked calendar and contacts. None of those defects are overcome by a cheaper data plan or cheaper price.

Re:Windows Phone = Update problems. (1)

MHolmesIV (253236) | more than 3 years ago | (#35986016)

Wait... what?

The Kin had a web browser, arguably better than the blackberry, and a fully functional music and video player equivalent to the Zune HD.

Phone features were not what killed the Kin, marketing missteps (aiming a phone at people not normally willing to pay $30 a month for data), not including texting in the base cost, for a texting based phone, and reviewers comparing it to the iPhone, which it was not intended to compete with, killed it.

Update works fine on my Focus (2, Insightful)

InsGadget (2092854) | more than 3 years ago | (#35984048)

I have a Focus with AT&T. Update came through fine for me last week, and overall I am quite pleased with it.

One of the little publicized problems related to the Focus was its issues with music playback. You could start a playlist, turn the phone "off" (sleep mode), and some random number of songs into the list, there would be stuttering and sometimes crashing on a track change. This was a very annoying problem for someone who had come from a Zune HD and was hoping to migrate all my music over to my new phone and enjoy a seamless experience.

Well, that problem has been fixed, completely. I thought the problem was some hardware issue brought on by Samsung's use of cheap memory, or some such permanent issue, but apparently the engineers at Samsung and Microsoft (and perhaps AT&T) got together and fixed this major issue. So I am extending major kudos to MS and Samsung for taking this problem seriously and fixing it.

Also, the rest of the update is good too: Copy & Paste works great, the Marketplace is improved, and the unit just feels more responsive. While I was once a despairing user of WP7 and the Samsung Focus, I can now fully recommend this product to anyone who wants a powerful yet easy-to-use smartphone.

insert free MS marketing bumfluff .. (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35984228)

keywords: easy-to-use, fully recommend, issues, kudo, Marketplace, overall, pleased, product, publicized, seamless experience, smartphone, Zune HD

Re:insert free MS marketing bumfluff .. (1, Redundant)

InsGadget (2092854) | more than 3 years ago | (#35984342)

I don't work for Microsoft in any way shape or form. I work for an IT company in the medical industry, which has had its fair share of problems with MS in the past.

I'm seriously just trying to report an objective truth.

Thanks for trying though. Please carry on with your regularly scheduled Slashdot anti-MS FUD.

Re:Update works fine on my Focus (4, Insightful)

clang_jangle (975789) | more than 3 years ago | (#35984354)

Well it's nice to hear that microsoft have finally coded a media player for their new phone platform that works. Curious choice to do so after release of the platform to customers everywhere, but at least their platform is now almost caught up to where Apple, Palm, and Nokia were in 2006. Or will be, when updating doesn't strand anyone anymore.

Re:Update works fine on my Focus (1)

im_thatoneguy (819432) | more than 3 years ago | (#35987998)

I think the take away from this story is th at the Samsung Focus is broken, not that WP7 is broken. Considering HTC has managed to release a couple products free of problems and that received timely updates the 'problem' updates always seem to be focused on the samsung focus and the omnia.

(Disclosure: I have a Dell Venue Pro and its camera and wifi firmware is garbage and in serious need of updating--it did however update WP7 fine.)

Re:Update works fine on my Focus (1)

cbhacking (979169) | more than 3 years ago | (#35988718)

That was a focus-specific issue, so far as I've seen. (I live in Seattle, and know several people with different WP7 devices. Only Focus owners complained about the stuttering.) Agreed that it's pretty awful to have on a new OS, but that's more a "v1 OS with specific hardware" issue than a "MS can't code a mobile music player" issues, since the Zune line of hardware and HTC-based WP7 phones didn't seem to experience that issue.

Nokia is sooo screwed (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35984086)

If these kind of update-related problems persist for Nokia's W7 phones... Elop better start looking for a new job.

And to that MS astroturfer who blames it on Samsung...let's see how you're going to push the blame to Nokia.

Nokia has had a long and prolific history with smartphones. In some parts of the world, Nokia is synonymous with a cell phone.

Re:Nokia is sooo screwed (1)

symbolset (646467) | more than 3 years ago | (#35985552)

You're assuming that Nokia and Microsoft together actually ever get a phone to market at all. For the Sendo / Microsoft partnership to do the same thing that was not the case. It may not have even been the plan. By failing to produce a phone OS that worked on the Sendo Stinger, Microsoft got something far more valuable than the reward for succeeding: Sendo's phone IP. Best to read those contracts thoroughly.

Samsung Again? (0)

Missing.Matter (1845576) | more than 3 years ago | (#35984128)

What seems to be Samsung's problem? Seems the also can't handle Android updates either:

http://gizmodo.com/#!5737002/the-problem-with-android-updates-part-seventeen-or-why-samsung-galaxy-phones-are-stuck-in-the-past [gizmodo.com]
http://androidcommunity.com/samsung-fascinate-users-report-froyo-update-problems-and-solutions-20110422/ [androidcommunity.com]
http://www.bgr.com/2011/02/24/sprint-pulls-epic-4g-android-2-2-froyo-update-data-connectivity-sd-card-issues-reported/ [bgr.com]
http://www.digitalhome.ca/2010/12/samsung-users-complain-android-2-2-update-is-bricking-phones/ [digitalhome.ca]

By the way, since Slashdot seems to deem update problems with specific phone models newsworthy, where are the Slashdot posts on these Android update problems, and how come that isn't a 'saga'?

Re:Samsung Again? (0)

davidbrit2 (775091) | more than 3 years ago | (#35984144)

This is Slashdot. We don't bash teh loonix here.

Re:Samsung Again? (1)

Billhead (842510) | more than 3 years ago | (#35984618)

So am I the that is seeing this MOTD at the bottom of /.?

Are Linux users lemmings collectively jumping off of the cliff of reliable, well-engineered commercial software? -- Matt Welsh

Re:Samsung Again? (1)

yodleboy (982200) | more than 3 years ago | (#35984244)

Weird, my Captivate upgrade went without a hitch. Can't say I'm thrilled with Froyo, lots of bluetooth issues since I upgraded. Considering it's Samsung, I probably will never get a fix.

Re:Samsung Again? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35984272)

All things considered, I'm happy with the updates sammy put out for my captivate. It took them forever, but I also place the blame for that on AT&T due to having the rom out months before AT&T actually pushed the updates out. Granted, none of it matters because I'm running a custom rom(phoenix ultimate, which is amazing). If you have problems, put a custom rom on it. that's why they exist.

And no, I'm not sweeping problems under the rug. But a few people having problems doesn't mean samsung(in this case, talking to the thread starter) is bad overall.

Unlike Android where they just drop support (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35984290)

for older phone platforms, and have myriad issues that never go reported here.

Re:Unlike Android where they just drop support (1)

Locutus (9039) | more than 3 years ago | (#35984936)

that's not entirely true but one of the reasons many put their money down on the Nexus One was so they would not be beholden to the wireless service providers for phone OS updates. /. would be flooded with articles of late or no updates to older phones because guess what? The wireless phone service carriers don't want your old phone to be updated because they use the devices to lock you into contracts. Because so few bought into the contract-less Nexus One, US customers are stuck depending on those who don't want you to have updates for updates. Besides, there are lots of other more phone or OS specific places for you to see those complaints and join if if you so desire.

LoB

Re:Unlike Android where they just drop support (1)

Missing.Matter (1845576) | more than 3 years ago | (#35986244)

Gingerbread was released on December 6, 2010, yet the Nexus One didn't receive an update until almost 3 months later on Feb 23, 2011. The Windows Phone update in question was released On March 22nd. Here we are only a Month later where one manufacturer seems to have trouble with this.

How exactly is this situation worse than Android's?

Works for me (1)

moorster (2093072) | more than 3 years ago | (#35984326)

I got my update just fine weeks ago. It took about 5 minutes and I was up and running with all the latest. I think people have problems when thy try to do an update and their hard drives and/or micro SD cards are completely full.

Re:Works for me (1)

phantomfive (622387) | more than 3 years ago | (#35984808)

Just out of curiosity, why do you have a Windows Phone 7? It's been really hard to find these users, and I'd really like to know why someone would decide to buy a Windows Phone.

Re:Works for me (1)

lymond01 (314120) | more than 3 years ago | (#35985172)

Two people I know use them and it's for the same reason I use an iPhone: email, web, apps. The Windows Phone 7 is going through the same birthing process as iOS. But I have to admit that while not as functional yet as either iOS or Android, its interface is as polished as Apple's and the Apps are very intuitive. It could become a the BB replacement for the younger IT and business set.

Hmmmm (1)

Daetrin (576516) | more than 3 years ago | (#35984434)

Microsoft can't seem to get a handle on updating phone firmware, and Sony can't create a secure network for their game systems to save their life. Both of them have areas of their business at risk from the smartphone and tablet revolution. Perhaps the two of them should team up on a phone/game system hybrid for MASSIVE DAMAGE!

Microsoft releases actual cow turd as phone (2, Funny)

David Gerard (12369) | more than 3 years ago | (#35985314)

Desperate to stay competitive against iPhone and Android mobile devices, Microsoft has released a two-pound lump of actual cow faeces [newstechnica.com] that they claim constitutes a phone.

Windows Phone 7, in development for several years, strips the mobile telephone down to its fundamental essence: futility, annoyance, malfunction, inconvenience and a socially unacceptable odour. Confounding analyst expectations, the turd is in fact shined.

US mobile carriers hailed the turd as the perfect physical complement to their world-famous customer service. "This powerful product will promote our growth!" said John Harrobin of Verizon Wireless. "We're marketing them as edible."

"We think we can really work the brand equity," said Steve Ballmer, modelling the optional shoulder-length rubber gloves. "Everyone works with our stuff all day every day. They know who Microsoft is and what we do."

"How about making our customers actually swallow our bullshit physically?" said John Harrobin. "Windows Phone 7 was my idea."

to be fair though (1)

wan9xu (1829310) | more than 3 years ago | (#35985862)

this update problem seems to be as much samsung's as msft's.

Meanwhile in Redmond (1)

Paul1969 (1976328) | more than 3 years ago | (#35989344)

Ballmer was overheard screaming, "Mail the damn users an update CD or something!"

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