Beta
×

Welcome to the Slashdot Beta site -- learn more here. Use the link in the footer or click here to return to the Classic version of Slashdot.

Thank you!

Before you choose to head back to the Classic look of the site, we'd appreciate it if you share your thoughts on the Beta; your feedback is what drives our ongoing development.

Beta is different and we value you taking the time to try it out. Please take a look at the changes we've made in Beta and  learn more about it. Thanks for reading, and for making the site better!

Developers: MS Hopes To Lure iOS Apps With API Mapping Tool

timothy posted more than 3 years ago | from the hey-fellas-psssst-over-here dept.

IOS 191

Microsoft isn't standing idly by while Appple's app store fills with software; fysdt writes "A newly-announced service called the iOS to Windows Phone 7 API mapping tool acts as an interchange for developers to take applications they've already written for Apple's platform, and figure out ways to get the code work with Microsoft's standards."

cancel ×

191 comments

Sorry! There are no comments related to the filter you selected.

The first step to meeting Microsoft's standards... (5, Funny)

Samantha Wright (1324923) | more than 3 years ago | (#35984906)

...is lowering your own.

(Click here for more information [instantrimshot.com] )

Re:The first step to meeting Microsoft's standards (1)

jimmydigital (267697) | more than 3 years ago | (#35986890)

...is lowering your own.

Anyone else as surprised as I am that Microsoft HAS standards? All evidence points to the contrary...

More of a headache (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35984912)

It might be useful as a reference, but in practice this will probably be more of a headache than just building the app from scratch.

With this... (2)

zppln (2058178) | more than 3 years ago | (#35984916)

... Microsoft will be unstopppable.

Re:With this... (1, Offtopic)

SquirrelDeth (1972694) | more than 3 years ago | (#35985084)

And if I eat Taco Bell my diarrhea will be UNSTOPPABLE!!!

The First step to fixing a problem... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35984954)

is admitting you have a problem.

Isn't it time to get a new leader at MS?
MS needs an engineer, not a marketing suit who understands where things could go.

I remember before Jobs was all about lock-in... (1)

Hazel Bergeron (2015538) | more than 3 years ago | (#35984962)

...and the NeXTSTEP API was something allowing portability across systems.

Re:I remember before Jobs was all about lock-in... (1)

Samantha Wright (1324923) | more than 3 years ago | (#35985030)

You're thinking of OpenStep [wikipedia.org] . When it was clear to Steve that NeXT wasn't about to win on its own, he started opening things up, in a desperate bid to retain relevance—the design was beautiful (although I can't say I care much for the exhaustive use of NS prefixes) and it seemed like a smart move at the time. Then Apple came running back to him, he became super-duper-successful again, and suddenly playing nice with the rest of the industry became a bad dream for Steve, excepting occasional concessions to the Mac Office team. Of course, since OpenStep was pretty much doomed (it was the mid-nineties and Windows NT had already won), it's not like we can say he's turned his back on any principles.

Re:I remember before Jobs was all about lock-in... (1)

catchblue22 (1004569) | more than 3 years ago | (#35985180)

Of course, since OpenStep was pretty much doomed

I believe that OpenStep and/or its progeny are integrated into OSX and iOS, which is one of the reasons that Apple can swap around it OS's onto various CPU designs so easily. Think of the transition from PowerPC to Intel, or the other chips that run the iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad. This is a huge competitive strength, and is likely a key reason for the success of Apple.

Re:I remember before Jobs was all about lock-in... (3, Interesting)

Samantha Wright (1324923) | more than 3 years ago | (#35985240)

The answer you're looking for is "its progeny", which is the much-loved Cocoa toolkit. I was speaking of the OpenStep initiative itself, which consisted of a rebranded NextStep (which was also ported to x86) and API compatibility layers for NT and Solaris, neither of which exactly passed into legend.

One thing that's not often remembered is that the OS X kernel and APIs ran on x86 since Steve brought NeXT back to Apple with him. (Rhapsody [toastytech.com] and later OpenDarwin [wikipedia.org] .) The rush for the big switch wasn't nearly as large as is often assumed, as Apple was quite prepared for it.

Re:I remember before Jobs was all about lock-in... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35985462)

...and the NeXTSTEP API was something allowing portability across systems.

Yes. One wonders why he would move from such a successful and profitable open platform to the closed, money sink of a platform that iOS is now.

Oh wait. Nobody bought OpenStep; it was a total flop.

Cool! (0)

moorster (2093072) | more than 3 years ago | (#35984988)

MS has some of the best dev tools. I wonder how that app works. Does it actually spit out the C#/Silverlight code for your or is it more of a reference tool?

Re:Cool! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35985010)

I gather you search for an iOS class, and this tool will tell you how to achieve a similar result with WP7.

Re:Cool! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35985080)

Quite similar to dipping your phone in the sink then.

Re:Cool! (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35985128)

Wow is developing with MICROSOFT TOOLS really such a JOY? Did you think about how much you WANTED to program, because the MICROSOFT DEVELOPMENT TOOLS are so much FUN?

Re:Cool! (0, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35985466)

well it's better than the using fucking EMACS or VI

Re:Cool! (1)

sockman (133264) | more than 3 years ago | (#35985544)

Come on, now. Emacs has a shortcut to generate your program for you.

http://www.xkcd.com/378/ [xkcd.com]

Other way around! (-1, Troll)

Bozzio (183974) | more than 3 years ago | (#35984998)

Now if only a tool to do the reverse existed.
Microsoft's WP7 API is great!

On the other hand, having to deal with Objective-C to code for IOS is a pain.

I know there are a lot of Microsoft haters out there, I'm of the opinion that MS got it right this time. WP7 is a charm for developers.

I doubt it will catch with hipsters (but who really cares about them?). I'm just hoping WP7 will catch at the corporate level.

No standard C++ on Windows Phone 7 (4, Insightful)

tepples (727027) | more than 3 years ago | (#35985108)

WP7 is a charm for developers.

Except those developers who already have a library of application logic code written in standard C++ or Objective-C. On Mac OS X and iOS, a front-end written in Objective-C can link to application logic written in standard C++, and Android provides NDK to allow using standard C++ application logic with a Java front end. (It might be possible to use ObjC on Android through GCC or Clang, but I haven't heard about it.) But WP7, like Xbox Live Indie Games, can use only verifiably type-safe code. Microsoft's C++/CLI is a language that includes both Standard C++ and a C++-like verifiably type-safe language as subsets, but Windows Phone 7 will reject any assembly that uses unverifiable operations, such as any use of the Standard C++ syntax for pointers or references. So how does one translate Standard C++ into the verifiably type-safe subset (/clr:safe) of C++/CLI, other than doing it manually line-by-line and then trying to maintain two versions in parallel?

Re:No standard C++ on Windows Phone 7 (1)

zach_the_lizard (1317619) | more than 3 years ago | (#35985256)

C++/CLI is not allowed on WP7, because it can emit bytecode not supported there even in the simplest of operations. This was the case with Silverlight (which WP7 is based off of). Not sure if /clr:safe would fix that.

Then how do I translate C++ into C#? (1)

tepples (727027) | more than 3 years ago | (#35985328)

Then allow me to rephrase: So how does one translate application logic written in Standard C++ into C# or another WP7 supported language, other than doing it manually line-by-line and then trying to maintain two versions in parallel?

Re:Then how do I translate C++ into C#? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35985502)

Rewrite once in C#, then use something like MonoTouch.

Re:Then how do I translate C++ into C#? (1)

tepples (727027) | more than 3 years ago | (#35985580)

I will point out that MonoTouch and Mono for Android aren't priced for developers trying to build a portfolio between having graduated and being hired or for people who program as a hobby.

Re:Then how do I translate C++ into C#? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35985704)

Well you need a Mac to publish to the crApp Store, so the cost of developing for iOS is already high.

MonoTouch is more expensive than a Mac (2)

tepples (727027) | more than 3 years ago | (#35985826)

Well you need a Mac to publish to the crApp Store, so the cost of developing for iOS is already high.

MonoTouch is more expensive than a Mac. Here are all the costs that I've identified, which quickly (in my opinion) become prohibitive for a hobbyist.

  • Mac mini (for Xcode): $599, not recurring
  • Windows 7 (for Visual Studio Express): $200, not recurring
  • iPhone developer program: $297 for three years (includes Xcode updates)
  • Android developer registration: $25, not recurring
  • App Hub: $297 for three years (includes Visual Studio Express updates)
  • MonoTouch: $897 for three years ($399 for the first year, plus $249 per year after the first for updates)
  • Mono for Android: $597 for three years ($199 per year for MonoTouch licensees with valid update subscriptions

And this doesn't include the price of phone service (a Windows Phone 7 device isn't sold as a PDA, unlike iPod touch and Archos 43, or even as a prepaid phone).

Re:MonoTouch is more expensive than a Mac (1)

zach_the_lizard (1317619) | more than 3 years ago | (#35986494)

What I did was I bought a used device off of eBay for development with WP7. The previous owner left all of her text messages and emails on the device, and she kept writing about how she hated the phone so much. Needless to say, it didn't cost very much. You can test everything without a phone plan (minus any transfer speeds over edge or 3G). I suspect the same is the case for an iPhone (though I own one already) and Android (haven't done any work there).

Re:MonoTouch is more expensive than a Mac (1)

gbjbaanb (229885) | more than 3 years ago | (#35986600)

What I did was I bought a used device off of eBay for development with WP7. The previous owner left all of her text messages and emails on the device, and she kept writing about how she hated the phone so much

This is your user base that you are developing your apps for. A wise businessman listens to his customers :)

Re:No standard C++ on Windows Phone 7 (0)

AppleOSuX (1080499) | more than 3 years ago | (#35985660)

Standard Objective-C? LOL. Oh and "standard C++" sucks compared to standard Java or standard C#.

Re:No standard C++ on Windows Phone 7 (1)

tepples (727027) | more than 3 years ago | (#35985718)

Standard Objective-C?

I don't see that.

Oh and "standard C++" sucks compared to standard Java or standard C#.

Was this true years ago when the application was first developed? Back then, Java still had a reputation for using far more RAM and CPU than C++. Besides, how does one port the logic of an application written in standard Java to Windows Phone 7 and iOS without a rewrite and parallel maintenance?

Re:No standard C++ on Windows Phone 7 (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35985790)

Why use Java when you can use a much better language with much better tools like C#? It does run on everything you know.

Re:No standard C++ on Windows Phone 7 (1)

tepples (727027) | more than 3 years ago | (#35985850)

Why use Java when you can use a much better language with much better tools like C#? It does run on everything you know.

I hope that's sarcasm. The tools to run C# on iOS or Android devices are currently cost prohibitive for hobbyists. (As I understand it, hobbyist is the phase between college student and employed.)

Re:No standard C++ on Windows Phone 7 (1)

jo_ham (604554) | more than 3 years ago | (#35985982)

He very, very clearly states that "standard" refers to C++ (as he mentions it in full each time) and that the adjective does not apply to Objective C, where it is not used a prefix at all.

Apple troll wilfully misinterprets anything with a slight positive spin on anything related to Apple! Film at 11.

Re:Other way around! (3, Insightful)

Spaseboy (185521) | more than 3 years ago | (#35985138)

Microsoft and Apple have switched positions. You have GOT to know how much this stings executives at Microsoft and pisses off MS shareholders. MS has already blown that chance at corporate with their phone OS by fucking over the 6.x using companies.

Until 7, it was an easy migration path for corps and simple to upgrade phones for users. Now there is no upgrade path, so the door is open to choose another platform. No other platform than iOS offers businesses the control and abilities they need with a standard hardware interconnect for custom applications. Vertical markets are choosing iOS.

Their only chance really was the consumer market and they fucked that opportunity with the Zune and Kin fiascos.

Re:Other way around! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35985258)

They go with blackberry. iOS lol.

Re:Other way around! (3, Insightful)

shmlco (594907) | more than 3 years ago | (#35985350)

Blackberry's? Sorry, but corporate clients are abandoning the ship en masse. Market share is dropping and US sales in particular are tanking. The Storm line was il-received, and the Playbook is half-baked. Android app integration is going to kill QNX, just as Windows app integration put the final nail into OS/2.

RIM is about to undergo a major implosion.

Re:Other way around! (1)

Ironhandx (1762146) | more than 3 years ago | (#35986926)

The Storm I was ill-received. For good reason.

Rather than rebranding and releasing as a new product and pushing it hard like they did the Storm I they left the Storm II to sit in the backlash of terrible Storm I brand experience, then discontinued it just as it was starting to gain steam as a viable contender in the group-think.

End result is the same, but there was an entire series of bad calls at RIM that leads into their current situation.

Re:Other way around! (2)

caywen (942955) | more than 3 years ago | (#35985396)

The real tragedy was the sheer short sightedness of the executive team. Windows Mobile went unchanged for 5 straight years. That management thought some hex-grid icon chooser thing would fix things was just mind bogglingly stupid. Kin just has the be mentioned and not explained. Even WP7 is having issues, but its chief problems are that it launched 2 years later than would be optimal, and Microsoft severely underestimating the complexity of updates. In truth, everything else looks pretty ok. It has a solid developer toolset, growing library of games and apps, and actual buy-in internally and from third parties.

It's going to be a real hard slog for Microsoft to gain big market share. But the antitrust shackles are coming off, and co-marketing opportunities with Windows 8 might give WP7 a badly needed boost.

Re:Other way around! (1)

CODiNE (27417) | more than 3 years ago | (#35985156)

Now if only a tool to do the reverse existed.

Perhaps you could sorta read that document .. in reverse?

Re:Other way around! (2)

shmlco (594907) | more than 3 years ago | (#35985282)

"On the other hand, having to deal with Objective-C to code for IOS is a pain."

GC on iOS would be nice. OTOH, the NARC and autorelease rules are pretty straightforward, and in practice it's fairly hard to screw them up. OC isn't as simple as JavaScript, but then again, it's not the hell-on-earth that is C++ with STL and user-overloaded everything. Love the delegate system, and the dynamic selector mechanisms are pretty cool.

The Cocoa Touch frameworks are powerful, much better than Android's, and there are a lot of frameworks like MFMailComposeViewController and MPMoviePlayerViewController that do a ton of work for you with a very few lines of code. Love the new UISwipeGestureRecognizers. As you can see, Cocoa is pretty verbose, but Xcode's autocompletion tools knock it down to a manageable level. Tight integration with the LLVM compiler.

All in all, it's a pretty good language, especially considering that it was created about 30 years ago. Objective-C is based on SmallTalk, which is too bad, 'cause I think using a full-blown SmallTalk system for iOS development would have been a blast.

Besides, learning a new language opens your mind a little, exposes you to knew ideas, stirs the creative juices, and all that... (grin)

Re:Other way around! (1)

mini me (132455) | more than 3 years ago | (#35985354)

I like Objective-C. It is very Ruby-like. I think a lot of people come in thinking it is C++, or something, and entirely miss what makes the language so cool.

Re:Other way around! (1, Insightful)

SpryGuy (206254) | more than 3 years ago | (#35986368)

I hate Objective-C (as do most developers I know). It's syntax is just annoying and awful. It's probably the number one reason I don't do any development for OS X or iOS.

C# is vastly superior. I even perferred C++. Hell, I even liked Java better.

Re:Other way around! (1)

guyminuslife (1349809) | more than 3 years ago | (#35986896)

What would be really great is if they built this API mapping system... ...and then ensured that the Windows Phone 7 API would map to the desktop Windows API... ...and then you put Wine on a Linux-based phone...

Biggest problem with iOS development (4, Interesting)

Rik Sweeney (471717) | more than 3 years ago | (#35985008)

is that you have to (AFAIK) buy a Mac to develop for it. I can't really fault Apple on this as it's a great business strategy, but I simply can't be bothered so I'll only make apps for Android, which doesn't require me to buy hardware.

If Microsoft wants their phone to succeed, they need to make sure that their SDK is available on as many platforms as possible.

Re:Biggest problem with iOS development (1, Flamebait)

Tibor the Hun (143056) | more than 3 years ago | (#35985114)

Android development doesn't require you to buy hardware?

Awesome, do they recommend you use punch cards, or do you compile your code in the public library?

Purchasing a used Mac mini for $500 to get access to world's largest mobile app store really is an unsurmountable barrier, that only the mightiest of giants can overcome.

Re:Biggest problem with iOS development (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35985178)

Android development doesn't require you to buy hardware?

Not really, no. Google provide an Android emulator as part of the Android SDK. It's the standard way to develop for Android.

Re:Biggest problem with iOS development (0, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35985226)

Where do you propose you run the emulator, fucknugget?

Re:Biggest problem with iOS development (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35985266)

On whatever computer i already own.

Re:Biggest problem with iOS development (1)

murphtall (1979734) | more than 3 years ago | (#35986144)

what if that computer is a mac g5?

Re:Biggest problem with iOS development (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35985956)

On some piece of shit machine you got free out of a dumpster/GumTree/Craigslist

Re:Biggest problem with iOS development (4, Insightful)

shmlco (594907) | more than 3 years ago | (#35985418)

"Not really, no. Google provide an Android emulator as part of the Android SDK. It's the standard way to develop for Android."

I know Android developers who have bought a dozen or more different Android phones on which to test their software.

If buying a used Mac to do iOS development is too much of an investment, and you believe that you can use the Android emulator to get by without testing across the myriad Android devices and platforms...

Then all I can say is that I'm very, very, VERY happy you're developing for the Android platform...

Re:Biggest problem with iOS development (1)

moonbender (547943) | more than 3 years ago | (#35986276)

Professional devs, sure, people who're interested in making money from it. Who cares about them? This is Slashdot, we like tinkering with computers, the lower the entry barrier the better. Your final sentence says it all: you're interested in a polished end product, to the point that your happy that hobbists are excluded from the platform. Nothing wrong with thinking that per se, but it's a consumer's perspective; it might be better served by, I don't know, Gizmodo or something.

Re:Biggest problem with iOS development (2)

jo_ham (604554) | more than 3 years ago | (#35987228)

So buy a cheap second hand Intel Mac from ebay or something, or buy a broken one and fix it up, since tinkering is what we do. You can get some serious deals on cheap Macs with busted screens or damaged bits and it's cheap to repair them - no more expensive than a PC.

Thinking that "low barrier to entry" means "new" is ok, nothing wrong with that per se, but it's a non-hobbyist's perspective. Might be better served by, I don't know, Dell.com or something.

Re:Biggest problem with iOS development (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35985522)

It's funny that you think running on the emulator means it will run on actual devices.

Re:Biggest problem with iOS development (1)

zach_the_lizard (1317619) | more than 3 years ago | (#35985286)

If you're broke, it is.

Re:Biggest problem with iOS development (0)

sideslash (1865434) | more than 3 years ago | (#35985370)

I think you are purposely missing GP's point. A nice thing about Android development is that you can install the SDK and develop and test your apps in the emulator on any of the major operating systems out there -- use the computer you like best instead of the computer somebody else tells you to use.

Microsoft comes in second here, because you can at least dual boot any Mac or Linux machine to a Windows installation in order to run the Windows Phone emulator (sadly, due to technical limitations the emulator doesn't work in a VM; though all the rest of the MSFT OS and dev tools do).

And finally, coming in at pathetic last place we have Apple's dev tools and emulator, which legally can only be run on Apple's hardware (and no legal VM use, either).

Re:Biggest problem with iOS development (3)

tepples (727027) | more than 3 years ago | (#35985122)

you have to (AFAIK) buy a Mac to develop for it

As I understand it, you have to buy a PC with Windows to develop for Windows Phone 7. Or you have to buy a retail copy of Windows to run in dual-boot or virtualization, which is as expensive as just buying an entry-level PC due to deep OEM discounts. (Once in Best Buy, I've seen a retail copy of Windows Home Premium for $200 and an ION nettop PC with included Windows Home Premium for $200.)

Your figures are bogus. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35985304)

Bare minimum to develop - slow but it'll get the job done.

New Mac Mini $600 no moinitor with OS

New PC $300 no monitor with OS.

Developing for anything Apple is more expensive than any other platform.

And I wont get into all the added hoops that Apple development entails - like paying $99 to join the Developer Network just to be able to put your own app on your own device?!?

Re:Your figures are bogus. (3, Informative)

UnknowingFool (672806) | more than 3 years ago | (#35985374)

And I wont get into all the added hoops that Apple development entails - like paying $99 to join the Developer Network just to be able to put your own app on your own device?!?

No, $99 is if you wish to publish your apps to iTunes. It costs you nothing to develop on your own device. I think to publish to Windows Marketplace is about the same price.

Re:Your figures are bogus. (1)

tepples (727027) | more than 3 years ago | (#35985658)

$99 is if you wish to publish your apps to iTunes. It costs you nothing to develop on your own device.

When was this changed? Or are you referring to jailbreaking?

Re:Your figures are bogus. (2)

davester666 (731373) | more than 3 years ago | (#35985978)

Um, I believe you still need to fork over the $99 to be able to get the executables onto your iDevice [as it still have to be signed by Apple to run] unless you jailbreak your iDevice.

You only get to run your app in an emulator on your Mac for free.

Re:Your figures are bogus. (1)

_xeno_ (155264) | more than 3 years ago | (#35986242)

You only get to run your app in an emulator on your Mac for free.

Not any more. XCode is now $5 on the Mac App Store.

And I'm not sure how many updates to XCode that $5 covers.

Re:Your figures are bogus. (2)

davester666 (731373) | more than 3 years ago | (#35986322)

You can still download v3.x for free [after signing up for a free developers account], which includes the emulator.

As well as just installing XCode from the DVD included with your Mac (and/or Snow Leopard Installer DVD). I'm not sure if it is still being included with the most recently released Mac's, but it's been included on the DVD's for years.

Re:Your figures are bogus. (1)

toriver (11308) | more than 3 years ago | (#35986662)

Yes, the $99/year gives access to the developer services that include generating the certificates, keys and profiles necessary to get an iOS device to accept apps signed using those certificates.

How much does a Windows Phone 7 code signing certificate cost, though?

App Hub is likewise $99 per year (1)

tepples (727027) | more than 3 years ago | (#35987178)

How much does a Windows Phone 7 code signing certificate cost, though?

The $99/year gives access to the developer services that include generating the certificates, keys and profiles necessary to get a Windows Phone 7 device to accept apps signed using those certificates.

Nintendo more expensive; M$ just as expensive (5, Informative)

tepples (727027) | more than 3 years ago | (#35985410)

Developing for anything Apple is more expensive than any other platform.

False. Developing for Nintendo handhelds is more expensive than developing for Apple handhelds. For one thing, just to be considered, you have to have a dedicated secure office separate from your home and a previous commercial title on another platform (according to warioworld.com). I'd look up information about developing for Sony handhelds, but http://www.tpr.scea.com/ [scea.com] has been down for three weeks.

And I wont get into all the added hoops that Apple development entails - like paying $99 to join the Developer Network just to be able to put your own app on your own device?!?

And I wont get into all the added hoops that Microsoft development entails - like paying $99 to join App Hub just to be able to put your own app on your own Windows Phone 7 or Xbox 360 device?!?

Bad feeling... (1)

SuperKendall (25149) | more than 3 years ago | (#35987122)

I'd look up information about developing for Sony handhelds, but http://www.tpr.scea.com/ [scea.com] has been down for three weeks.

Between this and PSN, I'm starting to get the feeling that Sony has actually packed up and left the planet with all the money from Sony customers, leaving behind only an AI that issues random press releases to give them time to make a getaway...

Re:Biggest problem with iOS development (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35985566)

Oh wait I can't run OS X in an emulator so I have to buy hardware to run it.

Re:Biggest problem with iOS development (1)

VortexCortex (1117377) | more than 3 years ago | (#35986074)

you have to (AFAIK) buy a Mac to develop for it

As I understand it, you have to buy a PC with Windows to develop for Windows Phone 7. Or you have to buy a retail copy of Windows to run in dual-boot or virtualization, which is as expensive as just buying an entry-level PC due to deep OEM discounts. (Once in Best Buy, I've seen a retail copy of Windows Home Premium for $200 and an ION nettop PC with included Windows Home Premium for $200.)

::Sigh:: Or, you can build a faster machine for cheaper yourself... Avoid the OEM all together. You still have to purchase Windows to develop WP7 (& Windows apps, but I use Linux + Wine to cross compile some of my Win apps sans VM or dual-boot), but at least YOU CAN.

The problem for me is that I have hardware that is faster than anything that Apple sells right now, and I purchased it for less than 2/3rds the price of Apple's most comparable systems... I saw that I can purchase the Mac Box Set with Snow Leopard for $169.00, but IT REFUSES TO RUN ON MY HARDWARE.

That, my friend, is why I don't develop for iOS or other Apple OSs.

You may attempt a rebuttal claiming that Apple doesn't want to support any unsanctioned hardware, and go on about "complete experience", but I'll shoot you down immediately because I install ALL of my O.S.s in a virtual machine -- there is no "hardware differences" that Apple's software would have to support except the lack of a hardware DRM system that Apple uses to prevent me from installing their inferior OS on my superior hardware. Besides, OSX runs on the same Intel brand CPU that I purchased... and, in fact, I have an illegal VM image (Hackintosh) that runs just fine, so OSX Can and Does run under this environment -- But I refuse to use it to develop software since it's illegal.

The problem isn't that I can't afford to purchase Apple hardware, it's that I have to have a special build environment just for their over priced hardware and software DRM solution to operate legally... That, and I've already purchased better hardware than they sell...

When people ask why my apps run on Windows and Linux but not Mac I always reply: Because Apple's DRM makes it illegal to use OSX on my hardware, neither Linux or Windows does. Apple would rather lock things down than let me compile my code on my hardware with their OS.

Re:Biggest problem with iOS development (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35986782)

"installing their inferior OS on my superior hardware."

That's where you lost me. I stopped reading once the bias became that obvious.

Re:Biggest problem with iOS development (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35986790)

I have hardware that is faster than anything that Apple sells right now

You have over 12 cores and more that 64GB of RAM? Lucky...

Re:Biggest problem with iOS development (1)

tepples (727027) | more than 3 years ago | (#35986888)

I use Linux + Wine to cross compile some of my Win apps

And what to test them? If you're using Wine other than as a toolkit for making Linux apps, you need to test on Windows.

I have hardware that is faster than anything that Apple sells right now

Which hardware might that be, may I ask?

I install ALL of my O.S.s in a virtual machine

Recent VirtualBox can run Mac OS X. Which host OS do you use to run your virtual machine?

it's that I have to have a special build environment just for their over priced hardware and software DRM solution to operate legally

A Mac mini costs $600. Is that more overpriced than what, say, Sony and Nintendo charge for their development equipment?

Re:Biggest problem with iOS development (1)

makomk (752139) | more than 3 years ago | (#35987240)

And what to test them? If you're using Wine other than as a toolkit for making Linux apps, you need to test on Windows.

You're assuming that all builds are actually tested. It's not uncommon to have regular builds - even automated ones - that aren't necessarily tested on all platforms, at least for open source projects. Being able to compile Windows applications under Linux can make that a lot easier, whereas the fact that Mac applications can only be compiled on Macs is a huge pain...

Nope, cannot virtualize (1)

SuperKendall (25149) | more than 3 years ago | (#35987102)

Or you have to buy a retail copy of Windows to run in dual-boot or virtualization

The last I heard the Windows Phone Seven emulator that you use for developing applications, would not run in a virtualized environment (perhaps it's really a virtualized instance of the phone OS itself?).

Annoying anyway, and it's kept me from playing with the WP7 dev tools.

Re:Biggest problem with iOS development (4, Insightful)

99BottlesOfBeerInMyF (813746) | more than 3 years ago | (#35985174)

Biggest problem with iOS development is that you have to (AFAIK) buy a Mac to develop for it. I can't really fault Apple on this as it's a great business strategy...

How is that a great business strategy? The number of iOS developers buying Macs contributes basically nothing to Apple's bottom line compared to iPhone sales driven by their large number of iPhone apps. The great business decision is keeping the dev environment under their control and making it Mac only is just easier and cheaper than maintaining it on Windows as well. This leads to apps that conform to UI guidelines and leverage all the built in functionality of iOS and are updated in a timely manner to take advantage of new additions to iOS. Apple doesn't have to wait for third party tool developers to add features to support what Apple puts in iOS in a new release. They build it into the tools and in many cases the next recompile of the app takes advantage of the new function. That is what is smart about Apple's dev tools, not some barely noticeable increase in Mac sales from selling to developers that want to target iOS. It's about promoting iPhone sales because that is where the money is.

Re:Biggest problem with iOS development (1)

UnknowingFool (672806) | more than 3 years ago | (#35985196)

You always need hardware to do development. The majority of people have a PC so this is not an obstacle; however, some people have Macs or no computer at all so they will need to purchase something to start development work.

Re:Biggest problem with iOS development (1)

markdavis (642305) | more than 3 years ago | (#35985968)

Indeed. But with Android development, it doesn't MATTER which platform you have because it will work with Linux, MS-Windows, and MacOS. So let's review:

Android development: Most any platform. So you don't have to buy anything, what you already have will very likely work.

Windows development: MS-Windows machine only

iOS development: MacOS machine only

Re:Biggest problem with iOS development (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35985204)

... and my biggest problem with Windows development is that you need to buy a Windows license to develop for it. You don't *need* a Mac to develop for iOS, but you do need OS X, which only runs on Macs or in VMWare (hint). Also, unless you're conjuring software out of thin air, you do need hardware to develop for Android. Your problem is that you purchased hardware that can only run Linux and Windows, rather than hardware that can run OS X, Linux, and Windows. That's like buying a Smart and complaining that it's Ferrari's fault your car can't go 200 MPH.

Re:Biggest problem with iOS development (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35985400)

Actually, if you want to develop *commercially* for iOS you *do* need to buy a Mac as running OSX on VMWare is considered illegal by Apple's EULA and since you're going to need their blessing to get your wares to their phones you're going to need to go about it in a legal fashion.

You're just going out of your way to make it sound like there is no premium for developing for the platform and there most certainly is.

Re:Biggest problem with iOS development (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35986094)

$600 bucks. XCode is free. Many smartphones cost that much without a contract.

Re:Biggest problem with iOS development (1)

fermion (181285) | more than 3 years ago | (#35985382)

Of course if one is happy with a development environment that "lack the full breadth of features found in higher-end Visual Studio and SQL Server Editions" and all one wants to be is a "hobbyist, student, and novice developer" then one can develop for MS Windows Phone 7. Otherwise it costs $1300 with a $800 yearly upgrade.

OTOH, the mac mini is $700 plus 4.99 for Xcode or $100 a year for Xcode and full documentation. Over three years, for a professional developer, not someone who is just knocking off fart applications, this is $1000 for the iPhone vesus $2900 for the MS WIndows Phone 7.

Of course all this, and android, can pretty much done on shoestring using Eclipse which costs nothing. Which is why even with this lame escuse for a cross compiler I can't see people leaving in droves from iPhone, much less Android, to write for MS Windows Phone 7.

MS has to decide what it's core mission is. Is it selling development tools and enabling the use of the code, in which case other software, especially the OS, should be much cheaper. Is it selling an OS and supporting apps, in which the development tools should be much cheaper. Is it hardware, in which case the software should not be forefront. It is this lack of focus that has allowed Apple to surpass MS in terms of revenue and profit.

Re:Biggest problem with iOS development (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35985648)

is that you have to (AFAIK) buy a Mac to develop for it.

I didn't (and absolutely won't) buy a mac, and I'm developing quite happily for iOS. Just grab yourself a hackintosh CD and you're good to go. Oh, and a large bottle of aspirin, cause getting it installed is a headache. Once it's up and runnning, it's quite nice though

Re:Biggest problem with iOS development (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35986064)

A bigger problem than the Apple hardware requirement is the requirement that developers use xcode. iOS development should be avoided unless you like being foced to use development tools that have been shoe-horned into some bug-ridden, monolithic pile of shit.

Re:Biggest problem with iOS development (4, Funny)

Karlt1 (231423) | more than 3 years ago | (#35986304)

is that you have to (AFAIK) buy a Mac to develop for it. I can't really fault Apple on this as it's a great business strategy, but I simply can't be bothered so I'll only make apps for Android, which doesn't require me to buy hardware.

All you have to buy is a dozen different phones to make sure your app is compatible and then enjoy on average 5% of the sales of the Apple app store....

Re:Biggest problem with iOS development (1)

phantomfive (622387) | more than 3 years ago | (#35986378)

Programming for Windows Phone requires either Vista or Windows 7. But I don't forsee Microsoft changing that at all.

Re:Biggest problem with iOS development (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35986872)

More of a reply to all of your other replies...

From a professional developer point of view, I can just write for WP7 at no extra cost. I can do the same for Android. Being honest, if the Appstore was depending on iOS developers, it'd have died a death years ago. As a result, I sold my iPhone as I'm never going to shell out for a computer just for one task (OK, I did for xbmc but that's different).

For the amateurs, once again, WP7 is free using express and Android is always going to be free. Not true of iOS. You're unlikely to own a Mac, so you have to pay for that, at very least.

WP7 is still sorely lacking in lots of places. Crappy camera API, crappy bluetooth, slighly half assed components, poorly documented and spread over all the place. But it'll improve and it won't have the basic crippling restriction.

Re:Biggest problem with iOS development (4, Insightful)

jo_ham (604554) | more than 3 years ago | (#35987276)

Right, you're ditching the most profitable market because... why? The dev tools only run on the OS the phone's OS is based on? The app store paid developers a combined 2 billion dollars in revenue (after Apple's cut). Nothing else is even close right now.

Hilarious.

I believe the phrase is "cutting off your nose to spite your face". If you're talking "as a professional developer" (ie, if you are making your living from this).

For the casual developer just messing about, sure you need a Mac, but you can pick one up cheaply on eBay that will do the job just fine. Alternatively you can just build a hackintosh and see what's what before committing to buying new or used hardware.

Viable for small shops? (1)

Tibor the Hun (143056) | more than 3 years ago | (#35985098)

This may be viable for shops with enough manpower to support multiple OSs and devices, but many one, two or three man shops may not have the resources to deal with support for some low-spec phone so far removed from the basics they can count on iOS.

Microsoft's Developer Motel (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35985136)

Developers check in ... but they don't check out!

"And figure out ways to get the code to work" (5, Funny)

The O Rly Factor (1977536) | more than 3 years ago | (#35985158)

Sounds like Microsoft development in a nutshell.

Re:"And figure out ways to get the code to work" (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35985682)

plz can you email me teh codez? this is super urgent critical i have teh codez i gogled but found ntohings

William Campbell died the other day (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35985330)

So Star Trek icon William Campbell, Trelane in the Squire of Gothos one of the best of TOS episodes ever, and Koloth in TOS and DS9 has died and there is nothing on Slashdot? How is this news for nerds? To bad he never submitted a bug report for some POS OSS because then maybe he'd be worth a story. Slashdot, you have disgusted me worse than Goatse x Tub Girl, please surrender your nerd credentials.

Appple (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35985536)

Is there a new company called Appple? Surely they're infringing on Apple's trademark

Open WP7 to native developers (1)

Moondevil (149648) | more than 3 years ago | (#35985714)

If Microsoft is really serious about convincing developers to port to WP7 from iPhone, they should offer native access to the platform to everyone and
not just special partners.

Most developer shops don't have enough resources to keep parallel versions of the application code in different languages.

Microsoft Standards! That's hilarious. (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35985928)

Microsoft Standards don't even work with Microsoft Standards.

How about a mapping tool for WM6 C# .NET? (1)

NicknamesAreStupid (1040118) | more than 3 years ago | (#35986176)

Duh, I guess they figure that those thousands of Windows Mobile developers, whose apps are now worthless, can fend for themselves. Actually, many of them went to the iPhone.

Re:How about a mapping tool for WM6 C# .NET? (1)

nog_lorp (896553) | more than 3 years ago | (#35986394)

"whose apps are now worthless" You say that as if they had worth at one time!

How to? (2)

nog_lorp (896553) | more than 3 years ago | (#35986380)

So let's see, what's the API to pop up the Apple App Store on Windows 7 phones? xD

Not all calls have a parallel (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35986834)

Wonder what it does when you point it at the iOS camera API?

Guess they need to fix Bing first (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35986878)

Seriously, go look for UIPageControl on bing - it's full of boobs!

Let us see how they like their own medecine. (1)

140Mandak262Jamuna (970587) | more than 3 years ago | (#35987014)

Let us say they were able to map bulk of the API that does the actual work on the app. Let us even assume they kluge a virtual environment to let the app talk to "apple app store" and transfer it to MS app store and then hack some authentication too. After all one should be able to simulate enough of it in vm to get it going. Then what?

Back in the days of Visual Studio 4 our company was doing mainly unix development. We hacked enough scripts to take the unix Imakefile and make it call the Visual Studio compilers and linkers to get the nightly build done on PCs. Main development was in unix. In version 4 or 5 they took away the command line. It was brought back later in v6 or so by the big players. But the damage was already done in our company. We had moved all the Imakefiles out, and wrote out vcproj files, and went to that nightmare called Mainsoft and the build env could never go back to Imakefile and linux when eventually much cheaper alternative to solaris, hpux, irix and Del Alpha emerged. One code base. Overnight builds. We did not need bounds checker or purify. Any memory error forgiven in one platform will crash in another.

I just wish MS would sink a couple of billion dollars to make this kluge work and then Apple make enough tiny changes to the API to make it such pain they get the taste of what they were dishing out to others. I want Apple and Microsoft enter into such a slugfest most developers give up in disgust and move to some platform neutral development environment. I want the dev tool makers to have no incentive to push one platform over another. Would that day ever come?

Load More Comments
Slashdot Login

Need an Account?

Forgot your password?

Submission Text Formatting Tips

We support a small subset of HTML, namely these tags:

  • b
  • i
  • p
  • br
  • a
  • ol
  • ul
  • li
  • dl
  • dt
  • dd
  • em
  • strong
  • tt
  • blockquote
  • div
  • quote
  • ecode

"ecode" can be used for code snippets, for example:

<ecode>    while(1) { do_something(); } </ecode>