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Idle: Fairytale Character Map Raises Ire In Russia and Ukraine

timothy posted more than 3 years ago | from the hate-to-borscht-yore-bubble dept.

Books 146

The downside of not having ones base of children's stories crafted and maintained by trained storytime engineers from the Disney Corporation has reared its warty head in Russia and Ukraine. A map of purportedly Russian folktale characters' haunts has drawn fire from Ukrainians, who object to what they see as the appropriation (from Ukraine) of such famous characters as miraculously strong Ilya Muromets, the gold-producing Speckled Hen, and Kolobok ("a cheerful talking cake who flees animals eager to eat him"). This seems like nothing that couldn't be cleared up with some artfully mis-pointed highway signs and a few tons of papier-mâché.

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first piss (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35988114)

all over your face.

Here's the actual map (4, Informative)

moonbender (547943) | more than 3 years ago | (#35988122)

Re:Here's the actual map (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35988134)

You know, any time I see a big fat woman with rolls of fat hangin down and cellulite and all of that ... I think to myself, what a waste of a perfectly good vagina.

especially when she's white. then i know one truth: unless she looks in a mirror naked, or goes to the gynecologist, the only person who sees that vagina will be black.

Is that Ho-oh? (1)

tepples (727027) | more than 3 years ago | (#35988562)

Just north-northwest of Nizhny Novgorod is what appears to be one of the Pokeymans [bulbagarden.net] .

Re:Is that Ho-oh? (1)

SuricouRaven (1897204) | more than 3 years ago | (#35989054)

They are both based on the same origin point.... sort of. The phoenix myth originated in ancient egypt or thereabouts. One version traveled west, through greek and roman civilisation (Mutating along the way) and became eventually the russian Firebird. Another went east through Persia, on to China, and eventually inspired the Pokemon character designers to create ho-oh. They are related, but only very distantly.

The Russian version also inspired another anime character more directly: http://www.kyotoguide.com/ver2/css/images/thismonth/event/201010/5.gif [kyotoguide.com]

Re:Is that Ho-oh? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#35989292)

You might be the most retarded gameboy player ever. I assume you've heard of the Phoenix, yes?

Re:Is that Ho-oh? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#35989768)

I assume you've heard of the Phoenix, yes?

I assume you've heard of the Irony, yes?

Re:Here's the actual map (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#35989548)

Flash warning

Too late! *pulls down pants*

WTF (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35988188)

Stop posting pointless stories about third world hellholes.

Russia and Ukraine were second world countries (0)

tepples (727027) | more than 3 years ago | (#35988546)

Anonymous Coward wrote:

Stop posting pointless stories about third world hellholes.

Technically, Russia and Ukraine weren't third world (defined as unaligned in the Cold War); they were second world (USSR and its allies). And if by "third world" you mean the colloquial definition of "a country substantially less developed than my own", look at comments to any story about mobile phones and you'll see Finnish people and other northern and western Europeans calling the United States a third-world hellhole.

Re:Russia and Ukraine were second world countries (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35988668)

WTF? We splitting hairs here?!

Re:Russia and Ukraine were second world countries (-1, Redundant)

dimethylxanthine (946092) | more than 3 years ago | (#35988786)

Shut up.

Hair splitting is par here (0)

tepples (727027) | more than 3 years ago | (#35988788)

WTF? We splitting hairs here?!

It's par for the course on Slashdot, where hairs split YOU!

Re:Hair splitting is par here (0)

darthdavid (835069) | more than 2 years ago | (#35989322)

I'd say you forgot "In Soviet Russia..." from your joke but we're already there!

U.S.? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35988714)

Indeed, there are way too many articles about that rat hole.

Unfortunately (4, Insightful)

mgiuca (1040724) | more than 3 years ago | (#35988190)

"Unfortunately, folkloric heritage is not regulated by international norms or by intellectual property rights," Marina Primenko, the creator of the Ukrainian map, said.

Yes, very unfortunate. Because we need more historical culture to be tied up in intellectual property rights so rich people can sue other people who reference it.

Re:Unfortunately (1, Interesting)

fuzzyfuzzyfungus (1223518) | more than 3 years ago | (#35988244)

I always have to marvel at the cognitive dysfunction of people who would rather have cultural antiquities locked away behind a mass of litigation. I can't tell if it is an occurrence of the 'ren-faire fallacy'(virtually everyone in medieval europe was a squalid peasant. virtually everyone at the ren-faire is pretending to be a knight or better...) where they think that they will be the ones who will end up owning it; or if it is a case of vindictive hurt feelings("I feel very strongly about the birthplace of an imaginary talking cake, therefore it must be depicted my way or not at all.")

Either way, WTF, dude?

Re:Unfortunately (2)

Belial6 (794905) | more than 3 years ago | (#35988306)

You must have been to different ren-faires than I have. The ones I've been to have had the majority of people dressed as peasents. Perticularly the women who take particular pleasure in being dirty whorish peasants. It's fun for all.

Re:Unfortunately (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35988772)

It's a ren-faire, not a lesson in its perspective history. This event is supposed to be one of celebration and happiness of the positive aspects of medieval life.

Re:Unfortunately (1)

JAlexoi (1085785) | more than 2 years ago | (#35989494)

You mean like the Loire valley castles are effectively copyrighted?

Re:Unfortunately (1)

Vintermann (400722) | more than 2 years ago | (#35989560)

It is very strange that you do not recognize sarcasm when you see it, yet still try to use it yourself.

Re:Unfortunately (1)

maxwell demon (590494) | more than 2 years ago | (#35989632)

"Unfortunately, folkloric heritage is not regulated by international norms or by intellectual property rights," Marina Primenko, the creator of the Ukrainian map, said.

Yes, very unfortunate. Because we need more historical culture to be tied up in intellectual property rights so rich people can sue other people who reference it.

Well, given that many of the fairy tales Disney re-tells come from Europe, I guess Disney wouldn't look very well in that case. ;-)

Don't Believe It! (4, Funny)

The Wild Norseman (1404891) | more than 3 years ago | (#35988196)

Kolobok ("a cheerful talking cake who flees animals eager to eat him").

The cake is a liar.

No shit (3, Informative)

SquirrelDeth (1972694) | more than 3 years ago | (#35988212)

Russia always steals from the Ukraine (I'm a Ukrainian). At least this time it's just fairy tales. Last time they tried to starve us to death http://www.holodomorsurvivors.ca/ [holodomorsurvivors.ca]
And Stalin's grandson excuses it saying genocide was not illegal in 1930's and is trying to sue the Ukraine http://www.kyivpost.com/news/nation/detail/58247/ [kyivpost.com] .
Screw the fairy tales I want justice for a genocide.

Re:No shit (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35988296)

You should send Ilya Muromets to whup their collective Russian ass with his boots. Oh wait, he's been conscripted into the Russian army, and is on a mission devouring Ukrainian refugee cakes and poultry.

(Seriously, I thought Ilya Muromets hailed from Murom, which is in Russia, so I'm not sure how it can be theft...)

Re:No shit (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35988332)

Re:No shit (1)

shutdown -p now (807394) | more than 3 years ago | (#35988996)

According to some Ukrainians, Buddha, Jesus and Ancient Egyptians were all Ukrainian [google.com] , too. Nothing new here.

Re:No shit (1)

SquirrelDeth (1972694) | more than 2 years ago | (#35989666)

All the barbarian races raped the Ukrainian women because they were so hot. So there is interbreeding beyond your imagination. That is why we look so different. And the Ukraine is very valuable farmland in the middle of everywhere. So lots of people fought over it and the women. The Ukies were simple farmers in the middle of barbarian hordes. Now lots of us have hooked Turk noses and dark Mongolian features and others are light skinned blue eyes.

Re:No shit (2, Interesting)

oldhack (1037484) | more than 3 years ago | (#35988328)

Stalin was a Georgian, though.

Re:No shit (1)

SquirrelDeth (1972694) | more than 3 years ago | (#35988412)

Hitler was Austrian.

Re:No shit (1)

oldhack (1037484) | more than 3 years ago | (#35988544)

Good point.

Re:No shit (2)

Black Parrot (19622) | more than 3 years ago | (#35988790)

And Napoleon was a Corsican.

...Is there a pattern here?

Re:No shit (1)

cbiltcliffe (186293) | more than 3 years ago | (#35988838)

Yeah. People who come in from other countries and end up ruling, tend to fuck things up.

Hey, Iggy! GTFO!!

Re:No shit (2)

Hognoxious (631665) | more than 2 years ago | (#35989566)

People who come in from other countries and end up ruling, tend to fuck things up.

Oh, come on. The country was already in a mess when Obama took office.

Re:No shit (1)

mangu (126918) | more than 2 years ago | (#35989398)

Napoleon was a Corsican

There was an Italian saying "non tutti corsicani sono banditi ma buona parte"[sp?]

Cry me a river. (1)

/dev/trash (182850) | more than 3 years ago | (#35988344)

you know what you need to do.

Re:Cry me a river. (1)

SquirrelDeth (1972694) | more than 3 years ago | (#35988372)

Would you say that to a Jew?
Remember according to the Russians genocide was not illegal till the 90's.

Re:Cry me a river. (2)

theArtificial (613980) | more than 3 years ago | (#35988570)

Would you say that to a Jew? Remember according to the Russians genocide was not illegal till the 90's.

I'll bite. Jews weren't the only ones who were slaughtered nor were they the majority. I assume you're referring to WWII which was responsible for many more Russians deaths at the hand of the Nazis. Hitler was bad but Stalin was much worse. Your view point seems very American. In Poland the Holocaust has more Catholic undertones due to the purge of the clergy (among others).

Re:Cry me a river. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#35989316)

In WWII, the jews were slaughtered because the illiterate Germans could not tell the difference between Jews and Bankers.

Given today's literacy levels, and the current behaviour of bankers, I see another holocaust coming real soon!

Re:Cry me a river. (1)

SquirrelDeth (1972694) | more than 2 years ago | (#35989690)

In Poland the Holocaust has more Catholic undertones due to the purge of the clergy (among others).
Than why did the Catholic’s get Hitler elected and fund his army? And why has the Catholic church hid Nazi war criminals?

Re:Cry me a river. (1)

maxwell demon (590494) | more than 2 years ago | (#35989928)

Well, to start with, Hitler didn't get enough votes to get into power that way (indeed, the party was already in decline). Hitler got into power through an intrigue where some people who thought they could control him put him into power as way to later get into power themselves. Well, that obviously didn't work out well.

Second, I've once seen an interesting pair of maps of Bavaria of that time. One showed how many people voted for Hitler. The other showed which areas were predominantly catholic, and which were predominantly protestant. The areas where Hitler got many votes were those with high numbers of protestants. While it doesn't proof anything, it's a remarkable correlation which doesn't exactly support the notion that the catholics got Hitler elected.

Re:No shit (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35988442)

I am from Finland and I understand you perfectly. Nothing good ever comes from Russia.

However, I know many Russians, and they are very nice people. I do not like their government but people are fair and nice.

I know also many Americans (U. S. of A.) and they also are very nice people. I do not like their government also -- Obama has been a real disappointment, in some ways even worse than Bush the stupider -- but the people are nice.

Governments are full of shit. People are okay.

Re:No shit (1)

shutdown -p now (807394) | more than 3 years ago | (#35988998)

I am from Finland and I understand you perfectly. Nothing good ever comes from Russia.

Hey, independence ("from Russia", quite literally) did! ~

Re:No shit (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35988740)

But punishing today's people who weren't even born back then for something their parents did (assuming the punishment/justice will be of the same gravity as the genocide), is exactly as wrong and evil as the genocide itself. Why don't people get that? Why do they think that the right way to make something horrible OK, is to themselves become exactly like that and do something horrible too?

Although, I think digging out Stalin's corpse, and shitting on its face, would be generally cheered upon. ;)

Re:No shit (1)

SquirrelDeth (1972694) | more than 2 years ago | (#35989698)

The US deported a Ukrainian for being a guard at a train station.
www.reuters.com/article/2011/02/02/us-usa-nazi-deportation-idUSTRE71179G20110202

Re:No shit (3, Informative)

tetromino (807969) | more than 3 years ago | (#35988808)

they tried to starve us to death

Who's "they"? Do you mean Stalin (a Georgian)? Or maybe you are talking about the (ethnic Ukrainian) communist functionaries who sent Stalin fake statistics to try to convince him that his economic policies were working well and that there was no starvation in Ukraine? And who is "us"? Because the entire grain belt of the Soviet Union (covering parts of Russia, Belarus, Ukraine, and Kazakhstan) was starving in 1932-1933. Millions of ethnic Russians starved to death too, yet today the Ukrainian authorities are cynically trying to appropriate the tragedy for themselves and portraying the event as an Ukrainian genocide by the evil Russians.

Re:No shit (1)

eugene2k (1213062) | more than 3 years ago | (#35988888)

Well, gladly, today they are not. The previous administration was all about that crap. I take it this guy is a fan who only sees what he wants to see.

Re:No shit (2, Interesting)

tetromino (807969) | more than 3 years ago | (#35989002)

And to expand on my point: the 1932-1933 Soviet famine wasn't genocide. It was a horrific man-made accidental disaster that affected the entire Soviet grain belt with no regard for ethnicity, and was caused by a combination of poorly thought-out and brutally implemented collectivization, habitual use of fake statistics, and a bureaucratic culture where underlings were afraid to tell their higher-ups that the higher-ups' "wise policies" were rapidly leading to disaster. Thirty years later, the same scenario was played out on an even grander scale, and with even more victims, during China's Great Leap Forward.

Re:No shit (1)

FreakyGreenLeaky (1536953) | more than 2 years ago | (#35989332)

man-made accidental disaster

Something's weird with that phrase.

Re:No shit (0)

SquirrelDeth (1972694) | more than 2 years ago | (#35989734)

You are a douche forcing communism on someone and when they refuse starving them to death is not a man-made accidental disaster.

Re:No shit (2)

Lloyd_Bryant (73136) | more than 3 years ago | (#35989006)

Who's "they"? Do you mean Stalin (a Georgian)? Or maybe you are talking about the (ethnic Ukrainian) communist functionaries who sent Stalin fake statistics to try to convince him that his economic policies were working well and that there was no starvation in Ukraine?

While there may have been general starvation as a result of Stalin's failed policies, there were special policies put in place that applied *only* to areas where Ukrainians were dominant. Such as the law that if a collective farm failed to meet its quota, agents of the government would move in and seize 15 times that farm's quota, leaving that farm with no food at all.

Exact numbers are hard to come by, but the best estimates are that around 8 million people died in that famine, about 5 million of whom just happened to be ethnic Ukrainians. So others *were* dying. Just not as many.

Re:No shit (2, Informative)

tetromino (807969) | more than 3 years ago | (#35989150)

15 times that farm's quota

Not quite. The law that you are referring to [wikisource.org] (passed by the Politburo of the Ukrainian Communist Party, which at the time was led by an ethnic Pole [wikipedia.org] ) stated that if a farm failed to meet its quota, the farm could be subject to fines of up to 15 monthly quotas of meat. Even if government agents decided to apply the maximum penalty and to seize the fine immediately, in theory the farm would still be left with grain and vegetables.

Re:No shit (1)

JAlexoi (1085785) | more than 2 years ago | (#35989518)

Ukrainian nationalists are no better than any other for blaming some nation for all evil. All and any nationalities have their barbaric bloody tyrants. Ukrainians are no exception. Fact of the matter is that a bloody tyrant was in power and, while unfortunately his birth city is still "sacred" in Gerogia, literally slaughtered everyone to his left or right. I can attest by having grandparents dead(famine, 1932) and exiled from south of Russia.

Re:No shit (0)

SquirrelDeth (1972694) | more than 2 years ago | (#35989746)

If Hitler said/did that to a Jew would it be OK?

Re:No shit (3, Informative)

JAlexoi (1085785) | more than 2 years ago | (#35989900)

Hitler executed genocide of jews. The massacre in Rwanda was a genocide. The orchestrated famine of 1933 was not a genocide, by definition. Because it was not targeting an ethnic group. Purely cynically, when 37.5%(3/8) of deaths are not of the target ethnic group(s) it's not genocide.
And every time I hear that, I am reminded that a few people in my family died in that famine. On both sides! One is Ukrainian and the other one is Russian. And I have the graves in Ukraine and Russia to prove it.
So those nationalists in Ukraine, that paint the picture of Russians(and they truly mean ethnicity, not citizenship) being bloodsuckers, are the usual variety nutjobs. And they have their academics that try to prove that Russians are actually slavinised finns, that the treaty of Pereslavl was not what it was, etc...

Re:No shit (1)

SquirrelDeth (1972694) | more than 2 years ago | (#35989722)

The Ukrainians did not post posters in Russia that said eating your dead babies was barbaric nor did the Ukrainians force the Russians to stock the stores with food they could not buy when western reporters were in Kiev.

Re:No shit (1)

JAlexoi (1085785) | more than 2 years ago | (#35989970)

A) If you're Ukrainian, then spell it like your government wants you to - Kyiv.
B) Most of those "Russians" were most definitely not Russian.

Re:No shit (2, Informative)

shutdown -p now (807394) | more than 3 years ago | (#35988988)

Dude. The notion that Ilya Muromets is "stolen" from Ukraine is pure BS, because when the real-world prototype of that folk hero actually lived, our ancestors lived in a single country called Kievan Rus, spanning most of today's European Russia and Ukraine. In a similar vein, The Tale of Igor's Campaign is equally a "great work of Russian literature" and "a great work of Ukrainian literature" - well, for sure, because it was written in a language that was an ancestor to ours both!

Both Russia and Ukraine (and also Belarus) are equally successors to the history and culture of Kievan Rus. You can't steal something that you share, unless you deny the other country their rightful claim. I don't see that here.

Last time they tried to starve us to death

Oh, and Russia didn't "starve you to death". Bolsheviks did, at the same time when several million Russians were also killed. And they were very much internationalist folk - led by a Georgian at the time, with many ethnicities from all over ex-Russian Empire in their ranks, with Russians - yes! - but also Poles, Jews, Latvians, and for sure plenty Ukrainians as well. Most people who implemented prodrazdverstka on Ukraine were Ukrainians, too. If you're so eager to get someone to pay, maybe you should look in your own country first?

Re:No shit (3, Insightful)

shutdown -p now (807394) | more than 3 years ago | (#35989014)

One other thing worth keeping in mind while visiting the links provided.

While a major famine with very high death toll did happen, and it is quite likely that it was, at least in part, orchestrated by communist authorities, there has been a great deal of falsified materials [wikipedia.org] in various articles on the subject, especially photos. For example, there is an information stand in Kiev describing Holodomor, but the most prominent photo - the one with the actual pile of corpses - is actually of a village near Saratov, during the Russian famine of 1921. Another popular photo set is from the US Great Depression - both have been prominently features as "horrors of Holodomor" in various official Holodomor-related thematic expositions in Ukraine and abroad.

In other words, same business as usual - when you see someone paint you a picture with angels on one side being tormented by fiery demons on the other, make sure to check your sources. The gist of it may well be true, but the representation is often exaggerated, and there's plenty of distorted information from both sides. If you want solid information, you should read books written by professional historians on the matter (and, preferably, from a "neutral" country, not either side to the conflict), rather than websites set up those with an ax to grind.

Re:No shit (1)

SquirrelDeth (1972694) | more than 2 years ago | (#35989760)

So then the holocaust was exaggerated because Hitler killed lots of Poles? MY grand mother and great grand mother lived through the Nazi invasion of Poland. And what about the blacks Hitler loved the blacks didn't he?

Re:No shit (1)

SquirrelDeth (1972694) | more than 2 years ago | (#35989770)

Re:No shit (1)

Alex Belits (437) | more than 2 years ago | (#35989906)

Robert Conquest

That's pretty much the origin of all anti-Russian and anti-Soviet Holodomor-related propaganda. The rest of "sources" are Ukrainian from early 2000's -- the time when Ukrainian Nationalists were closest to power.

Re:No shit (1, Interesting)

mangu (126918) | more than 2 years ago | (#35989422)

Stalin's grandson excuses it saying genocide was not illegal in 1930's

Yes, it was [wikipedia.org] : "The fact that internal law does not impose a penalty for an act which constitutes a crime under international law does not relieve the person who committed the act from responsibility under international law."

The only reason why Stalin wasn't tried at Nuremberg was because a high level bureaucrat [wikipedia.org] at the US government was a Soviet agent. This book [anyoldbooks.com] shows some interesting plans the US and Britain had to invade Europe from the south, instead of northern France. According to the author, it was Soviet influence that made the allies chose the much riskier and harder invasion through the English channel.

After invading Italy in 1943 it would have been relatively easy to invade through Trieste, which would have had the advantage of cutting off the Nazi oil supply from Romania. The reason that they picked Normandy was that this route would leave all Eastern Europe to the Soviet Union .

Summary seems familiar... (1)

jamesh (87723) | more than 3 years ago | (#35988268)

The summary seems awfully familiar... it reads like the filter-poisoning crap you get tagged onto the end of spam that sneaks past your spam filter.

in Soviet Russia.. (1)

TravisHein (981987) | more than 3 years ago | (#35988284)

In Soviet Russia, folkloric heritage disputes YOU!!

Re:in Soviet Russia.. (1)

hedwards (940851) | more than 3 years ago | (#35988340)

Quite apt, given that he's Ukranian and everybody assumes he's Russian.

Re:in Soviet Russia.. (1)

meerling (1487879) | more than 3 years ago | (#35988558)

give it up, that joke meme was worn and old 2 decades ago

Re:in Soviet Russia.. (0)

cbiltcliffe (186293) | more than 3 years ago | (#35988848)

In Soviet Russia, 2 decades ago is worn and old joke meme.

Wait.....what?

Re:in Soviet Russia.. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35989240)

that joke was worn because it still fits perfectly now get off my lawn you insensitive clod!

(Buy Apple crap because it is shiny. /. tribute there)

Hooray for IP laws! (1)

hedgemage (934558) | more than 3 years ago | (#35988314)

I'm so glad that in America our media conglomerates have taken upon themselves the duty to define and police our beloved characters. I shudder to think what would happen in 300 years if Mickey Mouse was allowed to move into public domain. We'd probably have those damn, dirty Canadians trying to say that he lived in Ottawa or something.

Re:Hooray for IP laws! (1)

SquirrelDeth (1972694) | more than 3 years ago | (#35988378)

Watch Canadian Bacon to many times?

Six Degrees of Canadian Bacon (1)

tepples (727027) | more than 3 years ago | (#35988574)

"Canadian Bacon"? I thought he was from Philly [wikipedia.org] . Do we need to see his long form?

Re:Hooray for IP laws! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35988550)

I'm so glad that in America our media conglomerates have taken upon themselves the duty to define and police our beloved characters. I shudder to think what would happen in 300 years if Mickey Mouse was allowed to move into public domain. We'd probably have those damn, dirty Canadians trying to say that he lived in Ottawa or something.

Everyone knows Mickey Mouse has been happily living in Halifax, NS, Canada for years.

Re:Hooray for IP laws! (1)

sjames (1099) | more than 3 years ago | (#35988948)

If Mickey Mouse wasn't a cartoon character, he'd probably be in hiding in Canada now hoping his pimps never find him...

The Ukrainian complaints are utterly ridiculous (4, Informative)

tetromino (807969) | more than 3 years ago | (#35988642)

Back in the middle ages, when these fairy tales were created, Russians and Ukrainians were one, united ethnic group speaking one language (it took many centuries for the languages and cultures to drift apart, and Ukrainians didn't really start to develop a separate national identity until the 19th century); so claiming that an ancient fairy tale character is exclusively Ukrainian or exclusively Russian is utterly ridiculous. Unless, of course, that character is somehow firmly tied to a particular geographic location. One such example is Ilya Muromets, who (as you can guess from the name) is from the town of Murom [wikipedia.org] , located in Russia, 400 miles north-west of the Ukrainian border. The insane people claiming Ilya Muromets exclusively for Ukrainian folklore have clearly failed both history and geography.

Re:The Ukrainian complaints are utterly ridiculous (1)

gblackwo (1087063) | more than 3 years ago | (#35988652)

Regionally, where Ilya Muromets came from is known today as the Ukraine. I think that is their point.

Re:The Ukrainian complaints are utterly ridiculous (1)

gblackwo (1087063) | more than 3 years ago | (#35988654)

Maybe I just misremembered from my Russian culture- my mistake.

Re:The Ukrainian complaints are utterly ridiculous (1)

tetromino (807969) | more than 3 years ago | (#35988696)

where Ilya Muromets came from is known today as the Ukraine

Ilya Muromets came from Murom [wikipedia.org] . Murom is and has always been in Russia, not Ukraine. And it's in the solidly Russian part of Russia; the territories where Ukrainians form a major part of the population are hundreds of miles to the south.

Re:The Ukrainian complaints are utterly ridiculous (1)

shutdown -p now (807394) | more than 3 years ago | (#35989040)

We have very little clue where Ilya Muromets actually came from. The problem is that, as most folk heroes, it is a mythic figure that has gathered the traits of many real-world persons over the centuries, as folk stories were told and retold, with each teller adding their own spin. Consequently, there are several candidates for the role of the original prototype, and explanations for the "Muromets" nickname - only one of which is about Murom as origin. There are also several villages, all over the country, with somewhat similar sounding names, which could all similarly be the origin of the character.

Either way, I don't see why it matters. It was a single country with a single (East Slavic) nation and a single language at the time. All countries which are the successors to it - Russia, Ukraine and Belarus - are equally entitled to the culture and history of that country and nation.

Re:The Ukrainian complaints are utterly ridiculous (1)

Sique (173459) | more than 2 years ago | (#35989830)

But Muromets just means "from Murom". So we know where the folk tale puts Ilya Muromets - to Murom.

Re:The Ukrainian complaints are utterly ridiculous (1)

JAlexoi (1085785) | more than 2 years ago | (#35990002)

If you actually read the stories, you'll notice how strange he moves around. On his way to Kiev he makes a huuuge detour. So probably his title Muromets was added later or in honour of Murom. The price he visits references Kievan prices spanning 130years. And the tales are definitely not precise enough to establish his origin. In fact his nickname does not indicate his relation to Murom or any geographical place for that matter.

Re:The Ukrainian complaints are utterly ridiculous (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#35989424)

Back in the middle ages, when these fairy tales were created, Russians and Ukrainians were one, united ethnic group speaking one language (it took many centuries for the languages and cultures to drift apart, and Ukrainians didn't really start to develop a separate national identity until the 19th century); so claiming that an ancient fairy tale character is exclusively Ukrainian or exclusively Russian is utterly ridiculous. Unless, of course, that character is somehow firmly tied to a particular geographic location. One such example is Ilya Muromets, who (as you can guess from the name) is from the town of Murom [wikipedia.org] , located in Russia, 400 miles north-west of the Ukrainian border. The insane people claiming Ilya Muromets exclusively for Ukrainian folklore have clearly failed both history and geography.

Ilya Muromets comes from Murom, but he is buried in Kiev, the capital of Ukraine and, by coincidence, the first Russian city. Otherwise, yeah, it's quite ridiculous to divide up a common body of folklore. The stories of Kievan Rus are common cultural heritage.

Just regular Russian behavior. (1)

Tharsman (1364603) | more than 3 years ago | (#35988698)

My wife is from Tbilisi, Georgia and she has told me this is nothing new. Russia has a long history of taking credit for everything in the caucus, from regional foods, to traditions, to even attempt the world to think actors and singers are of Russian origin.

I am not sure what they get out of it. Perhaps they attempt using it as tourism lure, or a local morale thing. For the most part, the other countries have made sure the rest of the world knows better.

An old sweet song keeps Russia on my mind (1)

tepples (727027) | more than 3 years ago | (#35988828)

Russia has a long history of taking credit for everything

If Russia had its way, would it be "Russia on My Mind" [wikipedia.org] ?

in the caucus

I thought Georgia ran a primary, not a caucus [wikipedia.org] . Did you mean Caucasus?

Re:An old sweet song keeps Russia on my mind (1)

Tharsman (1364603) | more than 3 years ago | (#35988852)

Did you mean Caucasus?

Yea, thats what I meant! :P

Re:Just regular Russian behavior. (2)

shutdown -p now (807394) | more than 3 years ago | (#35989050)

My wife is from Tbilisi, Georgia and she has told me this is nothing new. Russia has a long history of taking credit for everything in the caucus, from regional foods, to traditions, to even attempt the world to think actors and singers are of Russian origin.

Yes, we even take credit for that 30 million (or what's the purported count these days?) murdered by Stalin - who, coincidentally, was a Georgian. Damn Russians, always stealing them great achievements of poor and oppressed caucasian people. ~

Re:Just regular Russian behavior. (1)

Alex Belits (437) | more than 2 years ago | (#35989986)

300 millions. It will never be sufficiently impressive unless the number of "victims of Stalin" exceeds total population of the country (and I would therefore not exist because my ancestors would be all dead).

Really, it's around two millions (actually persecuted by Stalin who actually died as a result of it -- executed or while imprisoned). It's still two millions too many, but it places Stalin among some pretty ordinary mass-murdering heads of states, does not turn him into some Hitler-eclipsing monster that US propaganda portrays him. For comparison, WWII in Europe (entirely Nazi's fault) killed 60-70 millions of people.

Re:Just regular Russian behavior. (1)

tworavens (1905848) | more than 3 years ago | (#35989152)

Russia has a long history of taking credit for everything

Kirk: Does everyone know about this wheat but me? Chekov: Not everyone, it's a Russian inwention!

Re:Just regular Russian behavior. (1)

21mhz (443080) | more than 2 years ago | (#35989408)

Perhaps your wife could provide some examples?
All I could think of where the due credit may not have been given is kefir [wikipedia.org] , but only because its production was industrialized outside Caucasus, and this wonderful dairy product has been widely consumed all over Russia (and Ukraine, and elsewhere) ever since.

With actors and such, it's even more nuanced. If a Georgian actor plays in Russian films or plays, is recognized by many Russians, sometimes taking a lasting place in the Russian culture, that makes them a Russian public person as well. If you disagree, ask Americans how dare they "take credit" for that Austrian guy called Arnold Schwarzenegger.

Re:Just regular Russian behavior. (1)

JAlexoi (1085785) | more than 2 years ago | (#35989922)

Tell your wife that a lot of Russians will gladly give back all the "legacy" of Joseph Jughashvili and in addition we'll give you the option of taking Gagarin as your...

Yugo the magic Vodka swilling Bear (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35988730)

He has the power to drink vast quantities of Vodka and wake up face down in an alley without a hangover. Russia discounts the stories of his Ukranian origins and even points to an alley named after the magical Bear and the fact the Bear is a symbol of Russia itself.

This is daft, Speckled Hen is Brit (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35988818)

According to wikipedia, the old Speckled Hen comes from Abingdon: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Speckled_Hen. Very tasty too.

No worries (1)

SnarfQuest (469614) | more than 3 years ago | (#35988942)

No worries about this. I mean, nobody ever got into a war over some fairy stories. Unless you include someone elses religious stories. Lik the Bible or the Koran.

Wow, Hohlosrach makes it to slashdot. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35988984)

Hohlosrach is the perpetual exchange of expletives between Russians and Ukrainians on the Internets, which has been going on since the Soviet Union fell apart and the Internets spread over there.

For those who speak Russian, but don't frequent the udaff-com site: http://lurkmore.ru/%D0%A5%D0%BE%D1%85%D0%BB%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%87 [lurkmore.ru]

Re:Wow, Hohlosrach makes it to slashdot. (1)

Alex Belits (437) | more than 2 years ago | (#35990020)

Oh, for fuck sake... I go to Slashdot and learn more about that ridiculous crap with "Hohols" and "Moskals"...

At some time I will get so sick of it, I will organize The Real Jewish Conspiracy just to spite them.

Idiot (3, Insightful)

Digital Vomit (891734) | more than 3 years ago | (#35989004)

"Unfortunately, folkloric heritage is not regulated by international norms or by intellectual property rights," Marina Primenko, the creator of the Ukrainian map, said.

No, that's actually a very, very good thing.

foot on other boot... (1)

lkcl (517947) | more than 2 years ago | (#35989374)

"i'll get youuu, disneyy, and your little talking mouse tooo AH hahahahahaaaa"

what!!!!!!!!! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#35989996)

oh man, screw this! i didn't believe it could happen, but then i clicked the link to the map and there it was. right all up in my face! russia stole kolobok and ilya of murom from ukraine. i heard rumors this might happen one day, but i didn't listen. i said "shut up dummy, they already have buratino and sadko so why would they steal kolobok and ilya?" but who's the dummy now? i didn't know... you'll pay for this russia!

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