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Sony Could Face Developer Exodus On PSN

Soulskill posted more than 3 years ago | from the or-at-least-some-whining dept.

Sony 186

donniebaseball23 writes "As the PlayStation Network outage continues, developers are feeling the economic pinch. There's been no word from Sony on whether they'll compensate companies who produce games for PSN, but Capcom has already said it's losing potentially 'millions' from the downtime. Worse yet, developers who rely on PSN revenues may jump ship if they aren't compensated, warns Dylan Cuthbert, creator of popular PSN game PixelJunk. 'I have a feeling they [Sony] are thinking about doing something or they will lose developers, which of course is pretty bad for them,' he said." While a major shift away from the PS3 is unlikely — downtime or not, developers don't want to lock themselves out of such a big piece of the market — it does have undeniable negative effects on some companies. For example, Bethesda's FPS Brink, which focuses heavily on multiplayer, launched without that capability for PS3 users. You can bet Microsoft will use this outage as a selling point for exclusivity or Xbox-first arrangements.

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Try something new (2, Insightful)

Pikoro (844299) | more than 3 years ago | (#36091720)

Why not just make the games single player stand alone and ADD the networking stuff on as another mode. That way, the games don't require PSN for people to play them. Or use your own 3rd party server which would probably be even worse.

Re:Try something new (0)

ciderbrew (1860166) | more than 3 years ago | (#36091742)

No, what you want is more DRM added. Our sales team figures show that an always on connection is the only thing that can help here.

Re:Try something new (1)

Lumpy (12016) | more than 3 years ago | (#36092064)

Are you insane you cant trust the consumer to even hold a disk they may Selfishly to a terrorist act of sharing that disk with a friend that did not pay for the right to play it or WORSE invite others over to play it. What is needed is the console to NOT have any drives or even processor, but the games are played on the local servers safe in our bunker 30 miles below the surface away from the dirty disgusting consumers.

That along with our lobbying to get implants required on all gamers so we can blind them and electrocute them when we need to will protect our precious!

Re:Try something new (1)

ciderbrew (1860166) | more than 3 years ago | (#36092522)

It's that sort of lefty talk that is the problem with this solar system. You do know we have a huge problem with people remembering what they've played and then thinking about it later. That person has taken a copy of our product and is enjoying it again without paying the correct remuneration.
Of course I support the "at birth implant" lobbyists, it's the best course of action until we develop the much needed fetal augmentation. I only hope we get the research funding bill approved.

- Also, thanks to the twonk that modded my first comment flamebait. That Aspergers must make blatant satire hard to spot.

Re:Try something new (1)

Lumpy (12016) | more than 3 years ago | (#36092772)

BRILLIANT! built in mind wipes of all players! You're going to be CEO soon!

Re:Try something new (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36091836)

Why not just make the games single player stand alone and ADD the networking stuff on as another mode. That way, the games don't require PSN for people to play them.

As much as I would ordinarily agree with focusing on a decent single player game, some games just aren't meant to be single player. Multiplayer based FPS like the Unreal Tournament series or Quake 3 get very boring, very fast when you're just playing against predictable, monotonous bots. The fun and variation comes in when you introduce other people who think, react, and generally play in different ways with different strategies. If you replay Bad Company 2 over and over you get the same storyline with the same script and the same situations. Play it online and you get different people with their own personalities, styles of gameplay and motives.

I don't see a problem with dedicated SP and dedicated MP games. SP games require good scene setting, a well thought out storyline and some good implementation of AI. MP games require a fairly robust set of rules that allow people to adapt to their own personal tactic preferences against whatever tactics their (often changing) human opponents adopt, and enough flexibility that the same levels don't start to drag too soon. Focussing on AI and storytelling is a bit useless for people who just want a game where they can log on, join a server and have a laugh with their friends for a while. Games like Counterstrike didn't become popular on the back of a singleplayer campaign.

Offline multiplayer (1)

tepples (727027) | more than 3 years ago | (#36092238)

As much as I would ordinarily agree with focusing on a decent single player game, some games just aren't meant to be single player.

Then I guess developers should quit taking split- or otherwise shared-screen multiplayer modes out of video games.

Re:Try something new (1)

Windwraith (932426) | more than 3 years ago | (#36091868)

People gets insane without online modes.
No, really, I was shocked to know myself. Now kids go like "single player games suck" and such things.

Re:Try something new (1)

Denny_za (1106451) | more than 3 years ago | (#36091906)

Multiplayer or not, I want my trophies, which are linked to PSN...

Re:Try something new (1)

HAKdragon (193605) | more than 3 years ago | (#36092822)

Can't you still earn trophies offline and just have them sync back up once the PSN is back online? (I have a PS3 but I haven't played it for a while - I decided to clear out some of my 360 backlog and I can't remember if I've ever unlocked trophies offline.)

Re:Try something new (1)

Khyber (864651) | more than 3 years ago | (#36093728)

No, you cannot.

Example games: Red Dead Redemption, GTAIV.

None work.

Re:Try something new (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36093018)

Multiplayer or not, I want my trophies, which are linked to PSN...

I hope this is just a weak joke.

Complication.. (1)

Junta (36770) | more than 3 years ago | (#36091952)

Think they are talking about the developers who only do games not available on media. Typically cheaper and by smaller groups of developers, frequently independent of large publishers. We are talking about developers for whom the barrier to entry for creating and distributing media is too high and/or incurs a cost too high for the type of game.

As much as I'm displeased with the current state of affairs of 'owning' your purchase brought on by XBL, Steam, PSN, etc. (it being a step ever further back from copy-protected media), it does allow smaller game studios to get in the market without a lot of the logisitics problems associated with media distribution.

Developer signup page is down (1)

tepples (727027) | more than 3 years ago | (#36092250)

Think they are talking about the developers who only do games not available on media.

You're right. Since the incident, new developers haven't even been able to sign up for PS3 devkits. A press release [eventnewscenter.com] advertising SCEA's programs for developers mentions a web site for signing up [scea.com] that has been down for at least the past month.

Re:Try something new (4, Insightful)

VortexCortex (1117377) | more than 3 years ago | (#36092076)

Why not just make the games single player stand alone and ADD the networking stuff on as another mode. That way, the games don't require PSN for people to play them. Or use your own 3rd party server which would probably be even worse.

In most competitive games there is no bank of dedicated servers -- one of the player's machines is the "server". Why not simply allow unranked matches between peers?

For example, "Unranked Matches > Custom Match > Join Server > Enter the IP of the game server to join."

Thus, when PSN or XBL is unavailable (which has happened for maintenance, it did piss me off) the players will still be able to play. In PSN's case, since it's already free, WHY NOT? It's not like they'll be losing money by doing so.

The secret joke of the "online" is that it's just a DRM mechanism designed to keep people from playing games -- Eg: I can't play Halo2 online in a custom match, even though all of my friends have started the game, and our XBoxes are talking to eachother (party chat) and all of our consoles know that the others' have loaded the game -- we can verify this by looking at the Halo2 icon next to our names on the friends list...

So, then we fire up OpenVPN and join a system link game over the Internet, and we're all playing Halo2 online -- XBL was not even needed for this -- We're just using it to coordinate our play-times and for the voice chat feature.

If you've ever seen "Selecting New Host" or other similar message, you'll realize that the XBL and PNS is actually just made up of the machines everyone purchased (Host == Server). Only a small number of "matchmaking" and/or media / score tracking & DRM servers exist in comparison to control how the masses play their games. In the case of Halo2 (and all original Xbox games) they've artificially obsoleted the games' Internet play features -- They want you to play the new games, not enjoy the older games.

Personally, I won't buy a game that doesn't support system link (LAN play) -- VPN stands for Virtual Player Network to me.

Re:Try something new (1)

pnewhook (788591) | more than 3 years ago | (#36092810)

For example, "Unranked Matches > Custom Match > Join Server > Enter the IP of the game server to join."

Because my hardware firewall doesn't allow this due to the security settings I have and I'm not opening it up just to play a game.

Re:Try something new (1)

The Moof (859402) | more than 3 years ago | (#36093430)

This is already happening automatically with the current systems. If your firewall is not configured to allow outbound connections from your console, PSN/XBL gaming wouldn't work anyway.

Re:Try something new (1)

ashidosan (1790808) | more than 3 years ago | (#36093670)

due to the security settings I have

You mean, the defaults? Thanks for sharing.

Re:Try something new (3, Informative)

mjwx (966435) | more than 3 years ago | (#36092196)

Why not just make the games single player stand alone and ADD the networking stuff on as another mode. That way, the games don't require PSN for people to play them. Or use your own 3rd party server which would probably be even worse.

You mean like PC games have been doing since the 90's?

How novel.

MS/Sony dont want to do that because they miss out on all the revenue of being the only online service available. "But PSN was free" I hear you ask, well it was free for you but not for the developers who have to pay licensing fees for it which came out of the RRP of the game you bought so I guess it wasn't so free (and all that personal information they get from it too).

Re:Try something new (1)

SilentStaid (1474575) | more than 3 years ago | (#36092290)

Let's not forget how many ads you get in the store section, either. That can't be an inconsequential sum of money to make sure that the background changes to your movie poster and not someone else's for a week.

Re:Try something new (1, Interesting)

yarnosh (2055818) | more than 3 years ago | (#36092304)

Um, how old are you? Multiplayer *is* new. Or at least the idea of making a game that only plays online is. It is perfectly reasonable to make a game that is designed to be played online. Think of how boring WoW or Eve Online (I'm not a big console player) would be in single player mode, for example. It just wouldn't make sense to plays those games standalone. But that's what makes them so appealing. If you want a standalone game, there are plenty that play just fine that way. To say that all games should be like that though is kind of silly. As for not using PSN, that's a bit overreactive, don't you think? I'm not a PS3 developer, but I imagine leveraging PSN for online play cuts down on dev time significantly. You'd be dumb not to take advantage of that. Outages like PSN is experiences are just not typical. To base your technical decisions around it is not wise.

Re:Try something new (3, Insightful)

Culture20 (968837) | more than 3 years ago | (#36092430)

Multiplayer *is* new. Or at least the idea of making a game that only plays online is. It is perfectly reasonable to make a game that is designed to be played online. Think of how boring WoW or Eve Online (I'm not a big console player) would be in single player mode

Considering that Eve Online is just a 3D realtime Trade Wars 2002 [wikipedia.org] (which is a game from 1984, not 2002), and considering the countless other MUDs, online-only games aren't that new of an idea.

Re:Try something new (1)

Stormwatch (703920) | more than 3 years ago | (#36093290)

Um, how old are you? Multiplayer *is* new. Or at least the idea of making a game that only plays online is.

John Daleske's Empire, 8-player networking. Turn-based strategy. 1973.
Jim Bowery's Spasim, 32-player networking. 3D shooter/simulator. 1974.

Re:Try something new (1)

Khyber (864651) | more than 3 years ago | (#36093742)

"Um, how old are you? Multiplayer *is* new. Or at least the idea of making a game that only plays online is."

Older than you, child.

Learn what a multi-node BBS with Door Games is.

The Pit - the original MultiPlayer Deathmatch.

Re:Try something new (1)

Osgeld (1900440) | more than 3 years ago | (#36092508)

that would require effort, something current game companies are pretty low on

Re:Try something new (1)

N0Man74 (1620447) | more than 3 years ago | (#36093398)

Better yet... allow for openly run multiplayer servers like PC games have done since the beginning of online gaming (even if they have begun to go the console route more often).

Whether it's games, movies, music, or ebooks, we're increasingly becoming at the mercy of publishers and distributers in order to continue to enjoying the content that we have purchased.

It sucks, and it's going to get worse if people don't start demanding change.

Good for them. (1, Insightful)

unity100 (970058) | more than 3 years ago | (#36091750)

Actually any moron who locks-in/builds business by relying on a company that is known to be dastardly and corrupt deserves what they get served, but hey - they have been given a chance to save themselves from a worse fate. They can still jump ship.

Re:Good for them. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36091798)

Yeah right. They're all equally jerks. Nintendo, Sony, Microsoft. You haven't even worked with them, have you?

Consoles are inherently evil. (0)

Weezul (52464) | more than 3 years ago | (#36091812)

Valve's Steam lets people play games offline.

Re:Consoles are inherently evil. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36091866)

I just checked, my offline PS3 games still work.

Re:Consoles are inherently evil. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36092208)

Did you try to install a new one recently?

Re:Consoles are inherently evil. (1)

Riceballsan (816702) | more than 3 years ago | (#36091994)

*unplugs network cable from gaming PC... Hmm... Team fortresses online multi-player does not appear to work offline. Yes sony really screwed the pooch, left their security too weak on something that both the developers and their players expected to enjoy from their investments, hardly a fair comparison though, if more games had a draconian DRM that prevented access to single player modes while PSN is down, then your comment would make sense.

Re:Consoles are inherently evil. (3, Informative)

SCPRedMage (838040) | more than 3 years ago | (#36092190)

Actually, TF2 works just fine on LAN play without a net connection. You may have problems with the ONLINE multiplayer, but the game will still work on a LAN. Hell, if Valve does eventually shut down everything related to the game, you should still be able to play online, albeit with online default weapons.

Re:Consoles are inherently evil. (2)

icebraining (1313345) | more than 3 years ago | (#36092322)

The problem is centralized servers; you shouldn't need to rely on any company's server to play; every online game (except maybe MMOs) should come with a dedicated server binary, not only to avoid downtime as to prevent forced shutdowns (like the MGS3 servers, who were shutdown less than a year after the game was released).

Offline multiplayer (1)

tepples (727027) | more than 3 years ago | (#36092378)

*unplugs network cable from gaming PC... Hmm... Team fortresses online multi-player does not appear to work offline.

*turns off WLAN router... Yup... Super Smash Bros. Brawl's offline multiplayer still works. If another console maker has worked around this problem for the most part, why can't PC games and PS3 games offer offline multiplayer?

if more games had a draconian DRM that prevented access to single player modes while PSN is down

Several games sold on PSN in fact do phone home in single-player mode, in order to counter what studios consider to be misuse of the PS3's PSN game sharing feature.

Re:Consoles are inherently evil. (1)

somersault (912633) | more than 3 years ago | (#36092112)

So do PSN and Xbox live. I'm assuming this story is about potential lost sales. Funnily enough I expect developers will get more sales in the month or two after PSN is back online, as people get to play better demos with PSN Plus.. if I can't play a demo of your game, I will not buy it unless it's super cheap or very well known for being good.

Re:Consoles are inherently evil. (1)

grumbel (592662) | more than 3 years ago | (#36093394)

Unless I am mistaken, offline mode in Steam requires you to be online to activate it, so it only helps you when you know that your Internet is going away, but doesn't help much when the network has an unplanned downtime.

Re:Consoles are inherently evil. (2)

Blakey Rat (99501) | more than 3 years ago | (#36093786)

Yes, but Steam doesn't let people *buy* games while offline, which is what Capcom is rightly angry about right now. If Steam went down for 3 weeks, you bet your ass game developers would be as angry at Valve as they are at Sony now.

Being able to play games offline is a total non-sequitur. Both PSN and Xbox Live Arcade let you do that-- *once you've purchased the game*.

Re:Good for them. (2)

Jafafa Hots (580169) | more than 3 years ago | (#36091810)

Sortof like all those companies relying on Facebook these days for their customer contact.

Stupid, stupid stupid, to put all your eggs in someone else's basket.

Sony dug their own grave (4, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36091752)

I have just sold my POS PS3 at a bargain basement price, and I will never be buying another piece of hardware or software from them ever again. PSN fiasco isn't the only reason to hate Sony, just another in a long line.

Good riddance

Re:Sony dug their own grave (2)

qoa (704941) | more than 3 years ago | (#36091778)

Keep doing this people. I plan on purchasing many cheap games due to a used market saturation.

Re:Sony dug their own grave (2)

Idimmu Xul (204345) | more than 3 years ago | (#36091888)

I know I'm selling Portal2 this weekend due to the PSN outage, it's a shame as Valve promised the PS3 experience to be the best out of all the versions and now I'll never know what it could have been!

Re:Sony dug their own grave (2)

RogueyWon (735973) | more than 3 years ago | (#36091946)

If it's the co-op you're feeling that you're missing out on, then it is worth hanging on for. I finally got around to doing the co-op mode (PC version) the other day and it really is incredible. Like nothing I've ever played online before. Just make sure you have a co-op partner lined up who you know well and who hasn't played it through before. If you don't have such a partner, it probably won't be anything like as good. Some of the puzzles require a hell of a lot of trust and co-ordination between the players, and I couldn't imagine anything worse than playing it with somebody who already knew the solutions to the puzzles.

Besides, I would imagine that Portal 2's resale value would plummet pretty fast. The game is great and worth the purchase price, but it has next to no replay value, unless you really want to experience the story again.

Re:Sony dug their own grave (1)

Lumpy (12016) | more than 3 years ago | (#36092090)

"Some of the puzzles require a hell of a lot of trust "

why? do you have to send them naked photos of yourself dressed in bondage leather that they use to get to the next level and you need to trust they wont post them to the internet? Or does portal 2 come with electrodes that shock your testicles and the other player has control of the shock power?

IT's a fricking game, you don't need to "trust" them at all.

Re:Sony dug their own grave (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36092424)

What he means by "trust" is that, for example, in some of the more complex puzzles, one person will be flying through a set of portals and the other person is required to place a new portal in precisely the right location to send the first person flying across the map, and it's really easy to screw your teammate. I played it recently with my brother, and you better believe we fucked with each other at first. But it is true co-op in the sense that you must work together in order to progress. It is impossible for one person to do all the work. It's refreshing. The co-op part is easily the best part of the game. With four portals to work with, the puzzles get more devilish as well.

Re:Sony dug their own grave (1)

L4t3r4lu5 (1216702) | more than 3 years ago | (#36093466)

"Trust" in this sense is the trust you put in the other players on your football team to not Bogart the ball and run up and down the pitch, or to kick you in the back of the knees when you have the ball. It's trusting someone else to do something which is beneficial to you both, not just themselves. Call it the Nash Equilibrium if your antisocial brain can't quite handle the concept, because you sound like that type of person.

This is why you probably won't be asked to play Portal 2, or in fact any game, with anybody else. I guess in this instance, successful troll is successful.

Re:Sony dug their own grave (1)

somersault (912633) | more than 3 years ago | (#36092130)

You can still play both single player and co-op offline. I don't see how the experience is different from the PC version other than that you can play local co-op. Even after playing through the single player campaign, I didn't find the split screen co-op to be a pain in the ass at all - probably because there are no mobile enemies to be aware of, and the fact it was on a 40" HDTV.

Re:Sony dug their own grave (3, Informative)

Colonel Korn (1258968) | more than 3 years ago | (#36092838)

I know I'm selling Portal2 this weekend due to the PSN outage, it's a shame as Valve promised the PS3 experience to be the best out of all the versions and now I'll never know what it could have been!

I think the claim that the PS3 version would be best was entirely based on it coming with a free copy of the PC version of the game, which is certainly the best playing option.

Re:Sony dug their own grave (1)

The Moof (859402) | more than 3 years ago | (#36093496)

There's that, but there's also the cross-platform multiplayer (PC and PS3 can play together). The DLC packs are free for PC and PS3.. not sure if MS will let it go for free on Xbox (Valve and MS have fought over this before).

Re:Sony dug their own grave (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36091792)

stop being such a little bitch.

Re:Sony dug their own grave (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36092106)

Even their "performance" range laptops can't cut the mustard: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OT5qsaHqYCM [youtube.com]

Re:Sony dug their own grave (0, Troll)

pnewhook (788591) | more than 3 years ago | (#36092926)

This is not Sony's fault - it's Anonymous. I hope those responsible are caught and jailed/sued into oblivion.

free PC games (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36091780)

Free PC games will see big growth as a result. Quake live is a good example.

It Seems To Me... (4, Interesting)

Weaselgrease (2050100) | more than 3 years ago | (#36091786)

I remember the good ol' days when having internet access made a game more fun, rather than it being a necessity just to play at all. Maybe this kind of thing will 'encourage' a return to that way of planning, if only a little.

Re:It Seems To Me... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36091992)

Can't say I own a game that doesn't have an offline mode. The online component is usually exponentially funner, though.

Re:It Seems To Me... (3, Insightful)

scubamage (727538) | more than 3 years ago | (#36092028)

I doubt it. It seems like most of the publishers these days seem to only want to release a game if they can shove leashes up their users' collective asses.

Re:It Seems To Me... (1)

guruevi (827432) | more than 3 years ago | (#36092510)

I remember the good old days when we tunneled IPX/SPX over TCP/IP in order to play multiplayer games. TCP/IP support in games was very late imho with most games supporting IPX/SPX, Null Modem or *shudder* DirectPlay support.

Re:It Seems To Me... (1)

Blakey Rat (99501) | more than 3 years ago | (#36093712)

Not on Mac. I was playing Warcraft II over TCP/IP via AOL when it first came out-- no waiting for the "Silver Edition" for us.

Re:It Seems To Me... (1)

Jarik_Tentsu (1065748) | more than 3 years ago | (#36093588)

As a general rule I will never pay for anything if I can get it pirated. Because of assholes like me, well, they need to do stuff like this - requiring an internet connection for everything and trying to make games more multiplayer focused. Don't really blame them.

Change is gonna come (5, Interesting)

senorpoco (1396603) | more than 3 years ago | (#36091808)

Hopefully events like the PSN outage will give companies pause in their rush to move everything online. Only a few weeks ago DragonAge players found themselves unable to play their single player game as it required an online login and the servers were down. Hopefully it will force companies to come up with better solutions, sadly it will probably just force them to alter their EULAs to avoid any and all liability.

Re:Change is gonna come (3, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36091912)

Just a precision : in fact Dragon Age does not require a connection to play, and the servers were not offline. The real trouble was that if you are online, Dragon Age does connect to the servers and authenticate your DLC. And the servers went havoc. So once it messed up with the authentication, you just were screwed even offline; and indeed it made little difference.

The most awful DRM incarnation award winner is still in my opinion the PC version of Assassin's Creed 2 when it was released, for which a connection was mandatory during all the play time (and which paused/exited if ever the connection dropped).

Re:Change is gonna come (1)

senorpoco (1396603) | more than 3 years ago | (#36092752)

thanks for the clarification.

Re:Change is gonna come (1)

thegarbz (1787294) | more than 3 years ago | (#36093338)

Hopefully events like the PSN outage will give companies pause in their rush to move everything online.

Dear User,

The PSN outage over the past week has given us time to pause and reflect on our past practices. We are happy to conclude we're not only rolling in money, we're rolling in a shitload of money.

See you online.

Forever Yours,
Companies

Downtime? (2)

Aladrin (926209) | more than 3 years ago | (#36091830)

Downtime? I'd think the developers would be more worried about how much smaller the market is for the PSN now.

I can't possibly the only one who decided instantly not to buy from Sony any more. (Okay, I admit, Sony-exclusive stuff will still probably draw me in, if it's good. But anything cross-platform is going to be bought elsewhere.) There must be more who decided all this pain (including the insults like the 30 days of free PSN+) is not worth paying for Sony stuff any more.

And the security issues? Obviously Sony doesn't know much about security. Their system stayed un-hacked only so long as they left Linux on the PS3 for the hackers to be happy. Sure, someone was working on hacking the PS3 through Linux, but he wasn't there. Immediately afterwards, people started hacking for real. And of course the online networks both got hacked... 1 of them WHILE they were fixing the first. They should have been aware.

No, if I were developing for the PSN (which I can't, because you basically have to be established before they'll consider you) then I'd been looking for greener pastures for more reasons than just the downtime.

Re:Downtime? (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36091860)

PS3 owner who will never use PSN for anything other than Netflix, reporting in.

p.s. Netflix didn't seem to care that the PSN was down.

Re:Downtime? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36091926)

You mean owners which at best will be 25% of the total sold PS3s, and of that group a further majority which does not have the services. Yeah, I'm sure Sony will feel so much better now.

Re:Downtime? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36092426)

Oh come now, do you really think this will make any kind of impact on their sales? No, we'll have a few weeks of people complaining and swearing off Sony for life, then it'll go back to business as usual. The very fact that there are still so many people complaining shows that nothing was learned from all their mistakes of the past. If people still buy from the company that tried to rootkit their computers and sold them a console with an OS that they ripped out without compensation after the sale then I doubt a few weeks of down time and some lost credentials will put people off. It's a sad state of affairs but repeat Sony customers have taught the company that its actions are basically free of consequences, it can screw them over time and again and, aside from some moaning online, they'll just go back for more.

Re:Downtime? (2)

scubamage (727538) | more than 3 years ago | (#36092040)

Not all users have been so lucky with netflix. Some reported that they could get in after hammering through the login process numerous times, some report that they simply could not get in, and still others reported no problem. Luckily my wii has none of these issues.

Re:Downtime? (4, Insightful)

RogueyWon (735973) | more than 3 years ago | (#36091918)

Yes, I think this is broadly right. Personally, I probably won't stop buying from the PSN altogether, but I certainly will move to using pre-paid points cards rather than letting them have the details of my (new, just replaced - thanks Sony) credit card. That adds a potential layer of inconvenience to purchases which will certainly make me less inclined towards impulse buys.

Plus, as an owner of both a PS3 and a 360, it's yet another reason to favour the latte when making decisions on which platform to buy multi-platform games for. Unless there were glaring technical differences in the PS3 version's favour (a la FF13), I was already inclined towards the 360 on the basis that I prefer the controller and have more friends who also own 360s than PS3s (and hence a larger Xbox Live friends list). After seeing the PSN's dire resilience demonstrated, these decisions are going to become pretty much no-brainers in future. So I'm only likely to buy single-platform exclusives for the PS3 from now on.

Meanwhile, developers inclined towards giving Sony those exclusives are going to be thinking their decisions through very carefully. After all, the PSN has been painful to a lot of game developers - not just those who have seen PSN launches postponed or games launch with multiplayer not functioning, but also those who have DLC as part of their business model (which, like it or not, is most of them these days). Bioware haven't been shifting any Dragon Age or Mass Effect 2 DLC on the PS3 since the PSN went down. Gust haven't been selling any Ar Tonelico Qoga DLC. Black Ops: Escalation? Forget it. Now in some cases, customers will just postpone their purchases until the PSN store comes back up (which is likely to be the final component to do so), but in other cases, they'll have "moved on" from the game in question and the sale will be lost forever.

There's been a lot of hyperbole about the impacts of the PSN outage and data leak. I find it very hard to imagine large numbers of people rushing to trade in their PS3s. In fact, largely due to a lack of new releases that have interested me since Portal 2, I've spent the last few weeks using my PS3 way more than I normally would as I work through my backlog of games I've been meaning to finish. I played Killzone 3's campaign through (and was very impressed by how well the PS Move controls work). I sank 40 hours into Ar Tonelico Qoga (one of the few Japanese RPGs of this console generation to be actually good). And I finally got around to finishing the first Uncharted game. The PS3 has a large installed base now and, after a slow start, a decent library of games. In the immediate future, it isn't going anywhere.

The damage for Sony will, I suspect, be more subtle and long-term. There will be changes to how customers spend their money in the PSN store that could prove painful over time. And there will be damage to Sony's commercial relationships with the wider industry that could take years to repair. Compare how Nintendo managed to annoy a huge chunk of the industry (including, critically, Squaresoft) through sheer arrogance during the transition from the SNES to the N64, with the result that despite the SNES's dominance, the N64 and Gamecube died a slow death due to lack of third party developer interest (a problem which still afflicts the Wii to some extent). Sony are running a high risk of finding themselves in a similar situation now - you mess with your partners' bottom lines at your peril.

Re:Downtime? (1)

pnewhook (788591) | more than 3 years ago | (#36092958)

And the security issues? Obviously Sony doesn't know much about security.

There is absolutely nothing that is perfectly secure (digital or physical) given someone with enough time and determination to break through it.

PixelJunk is not a game (1)

3vi1 (544505) | more than 3 years ago | (#36091902)

>> "...Dylan Cuthbert, creator of popular PSN game PixelJunk."

PixelJunk is a series of games, not the name of an individual game.

No OtherOS? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36091910)

PSN is PWNed and WE are HAPPY.

Re:No OtherOS? (1)

NoAkai (2036200) | more than 3 years ago | (#36093130)

From the looks of it, you're also on MDMA... But hey, I don't judge.

Sony is in denial (5, Insightful)

onyxruby (118189) | more than 3 years ago | (#36092124)

They think this was all about stealing credit cards. A heist that large though plummets in value as it is too well known and the cards too readily canceled. I would imagine the market value for the stolen cards to be far less than a typical heist that doesn't become publicly known.

I really think this about punishing Sony for doing evil things. Whether you want to pick their DRM infatuation, pursuite of GeoHot, removal of other OS and any number of other things doesn't matter. Somebody was trying to send a message to Sony that in the real world a court room victory bought with the best lawyers you can find can still have a very real cost.

Estimates that put the cost of this in the billion dollar range have been making the news lately. Sony, you just need to ask yourself, was it worth a billion dollars, the loss of public goodwill and a number of pissed of developers? Whether or not Sony will stop playing hardball and start being the corporate bully is doubtful. In the end whoever did this will likely end up in prison, the only question is what lesson did Sony learn from this?

Re:Sony is in denial (3, Interesting)

citizenr (871508) | more than 3 years ago | (#36092908)

They think this was all about stealing credit cards.

Wonder if anyone shorted a massive amount of Sony stock before the news broke.

Re:Sony is in denial (1)

Culture20 (968837) | more than 3 years ago | (#36093140)

Wonder if anyone shorted a massive amount of Sony stock before the news broke.

Quite a few people probably did due to the bad press they were getting before this scandal.

Re:Sony is in denial (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36093180)

Oh, so it's not a thief, but an economical terrorist! That makes me feel soooooooooo much more sympathetic toward the perp.

I'm hoping the feds find the perp and do an UBL on him. He deserves it. Whatever Sony has done (or has not, in terms of security) is not a justification for putting millions of people through this.

Re:Sony is in denial (1)

DdJ (10790) | more than 3 years ago | (#36093262)

I really think this about punishing Sony for doing evil things.

This would provide pretty good cover for someone who did just want to steal credit cards and other information they could profit from.

(The credit cards aren't the data I'm most scared about. The "answers to security questions" is what I'm most scared about. Suddenly, someone out there has the answer to a billion "mother's maiden name" and "first pet's name" questions. The damage from that is harder to contain than credit card theft, and is the single most troublesome aspect of this from my perspective.)

I believe there's an economic motive just based on observing security breeches surrounding Blizzard and banks. Sure, compromising a bank (or their customers) is potentially a source of more revenue than compromising a gaming company (or their customers), but the banks and our legal system expect bad guys to do that -- they're (on average) more likely to get caught and more severely punished if caught.

A WoW account (for example) is something a criminal can monetize. Is doing so more work than monetizing, well, money? Sure. But it's way lower risk on a variety of fronts, because huge swaths of our society go "oh, it's just a video game, it's not important". The risk/reward ratio looks pretty good, and so in theory we should see a lot of criminal activity surrounding it, and in practice we do.

Makes sense for the same chain of reasoning to apply here, no?

Saved Games (1)

Jetboy01 (550638) | more than 3 years ago | (#36092192)

A few weeks, possibly even months ago, Sony announced a feature that would let PSN+ members store their saved games in the 'cloud'.
What happened to that? Are all those members now locked out of their saved games, or did the feature not go live yet?

I wonder if they'll still be touting that as the next big thing?

Re:Saved Games (2)

iainl (136759) | more than 3 years ago | (#36092334)

The way it works is that you still save to the hard drive within the game. PSN+ subscribers just have an option in the dash to back that save up to Sony's servers, where it can then be downloaded onto another of your PS3s (because you've got lots of them, haven't you?) and still used. As supposed to doing exactly the same with a USB memory stick, or what have you.

Basically, it's nothing a PC owner with a Dropbox account couldn't achieve.

Let's be realistic here... (5, Interesting)

Mr_Silver (213637) | more than 3 years ago | (#36092204)

They could face developer exodus ... but it probably won't happen.
They could face customer exodus ... but it probably won't happen.

My bet is that a year from now, this issue will have be a distant memory for the vast majority of people and PSN will be ticking along as normal.

I'm sure there are plenty of people who would like to see these issues cause Sony to crash and burn - but past history (with things like the rootkit) has shown that it is unlikely to happen.

Sorry, but just being realistic.

Re:Let's be realistic here... (1)

somersault (912633) | more than 3 years ago | (#36092260)

Definitely not going to abandon my PS3, but it will be a serious consideration when the next generation rolls out. Hopefully Sony have learned a lesson here. If they don't tighten things up, they will be hacked again within a few months.

The only hassle for me so far was phoning up the bank to get a new credit card sent out. I don't play online games much, and offline games and blu-rays are still playing fine.

Re:Let's be realistic here... (1)

internerdj (1319281) | more than 3 years ago | (#36093060)

Absolutely there will be a lesson: We now have a positive spin reason to charge our customers for the PSN like Microsoft does for our next gen console.

Re:Let's be realistic here... (1)

somersault (912633) | more than 3 years ago | (#36093246)

You mean so that even more people can have their CC details stolen? I don't see that particular spin working :p

Re:Let's be realistic here... (1)

somersault (912633) | more than 3 years ago | (#36093278)

BTW, there is already a paid-for subscriber system for PSN called PSN Plus, and it obviously didn't help security one jot.

Re:Let's be realistic here... (1)

iainl (136759) | more than 3 years ago | (#36092360)

I suspect people will still use PSN. But I also suspect many will be more wary of providing credit card details, and go get points cards from a shop if they want to purchase DLC or downloadable games.

That really pushes a lot of impulse purchases away, and could be fatal for the likes of Cuthbert, if his margins are already tight.

Re:Let's be realistic here... (1)

Dorkmaster Flek (1013045) | more than 3 years ago | (#36092436)

I know I personally won't be putting my credit card info on there ever again. That means I'll likely be playing cross platform games on my 360 exclusively.

Re:Let's be realistic here... (1)

Nationless (2123580) | more than 3 years ago | (#36092932)

I don't see how those two are mutually exclusive?

Re:Let's be realistic here... (1)

Dorkmaster Flek (1013045) | more than 3 years ago | (#36093002)

They're not mutually exclusive. DLC for disc-based games, or cross-platform digital download titles like Mega Man 9, for example. Even if it's disc-only, I'd rather get it on another platform at this point just because of how poorly they've handled this.

Re:Let's be realistic here... (1)

delinear (991444) | more than 3 years ago | (#36092486)

Exactly what I was thinking - if the fact that this company tried to put spyware on their paying customers' computers without their knowledge, or that they are massive advocates of DRM and locking down equipment you supposedly own and going after anyone who makes it easy for you to get around that, or that they will happily sell you a pricey console on the basis that it has a bunch of functionality which they then proceed to take away after they have your money, or any of the many other things they've done to the disadvantage of their customers over the years wasn't enough to put people off PSN in their droves, I very much doubt that a few weeks' server outage and the hassle of replacing credit cards will do the job.

I misread it. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36092262)

I thought they were talking about developers from PSN, but seriously who would want that on their resume if jumping ship?

Capcom should shut up. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36092936)

Capcom would lose money anyway, because they make stupid decisions... like not supporting development of Mega Man 2, for instance...

Goodbye PS3... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36093158)

I have to say I'm quite annoyed with the move to ONLINE EVERYTHING. I can't even play some of my games thanks to the PSN outage, and others have worthless single player. Even when PSN is up, I feel like every time I start up my PS3 I've got to spend an hour downloading updates...for what!? Nothing. I kept a bunch of my Xbox 360 games from when it RROD'd back in the day. Today I'm bringing all my PS3 stuff and and switching to the new 360. I'll finally get to play Halo again, not to mention awesome awesome Earth Defense Force 2017. And I'll finally get to play those 360 exclusives!

I'm not fooled into thinking I'm getting a deal here, but I am just not satisfied with the PS3. This PSN outage is lame of epic proportions -- enough for me to switch.

What I don't get . . . (0)

RazorSharp (1418697) | more than 3 years ago | (#36093308)

These hackers hate Sony because of all the evil things Sony has done. So they're driving users off to Microsoft. . .

It's not like anyone who will abandon the PS3 because of this is going to switch over to a Wii. They may go the Nintendo route when the new system comes out but not now. These kids don't seem to realize that Microsoft has a much richer history of evil than Sony does.

So what happens if they succeed in this endeavor? XBox will dominate the market and everyone will be locked into a MS platform. That's when the REAL evil starts. Just look at Windows and Office. Do these kids have any perspective as to what they're doing? Unless Google gets into gaming (which I don't see happening) there's no non-evil company to take Sony's place.

If these kids wanted to remove the evil from game systems they'd go after game systems in general: program emulators, distribute ROMS that can be burned on to DVDs/Blu-Rays, and then allow people to hook a Linux box up to their TV and run all the console games. Make a PS3/XBox WINE. Of course, that would require hard work and a dedication toward something productive. But then they wouldn't be attacking the gamer community itself, they'd be aiding it and only attacking these 'evil' companies.

Re:What I don't get . . . (2)

Blakey Rat (99501) | more than 3 years ago | (#36093886)

PS3 and Xbox 360 play different types of games from Wii. So different, it's almost a different market altogether. You couldn't replace an PS3 gaming environment on a Wii... but you could get awful close with an Xbox 360,

(For non-game features, though, like Netflix, this could be a boon to Nintendo as it is to Microsoft.)

These kids don't seem to realize that Microsoft has a much richer history of evil than Sony does.

Microsoft was evil 20 years ago, and pretty neutral now. Sony's evil this instant, and has been insistently evil for the last 5 years. Nobody who regularly plays a PS3 remembers IE4 vs. Netscape, or that Stacker thing, or the look-and-feel lawsuit with Apple. That stuff's ancient history. Their experience of Microsoft is Windows 2000 and up, generally ok products executed in a non-evil way. (Only the geekiest of geeks have heard of, or care about, the ODF thing, that's the only "evil" thing I can think of MS doing recently. That pales in comparison to Adobe, or even to Apple.)

They were leaving anyway ... (1)

Eponymous Coward (6097) | more than 3 years ago | (#36093336)

... to do more phone and mobile development. Console gaming is a large but stagnant market. Mobile gaming is bigger and still growing very quickly.

The outage is only convincing more people to take evaluate where they put their development resources and it isn't looking good for *any* of the console makers.

They had the right to ban lunix!!!!11! (0)

Crass Spektakel (4597) | more than 3 years ago | (#36093370)

And whatever you say, they had the right to ban communist limux from their system, really!

Every god loving america^W^W^Wmoney loving japanese company has to enforce protection of their control over their customers.

Only problem: by banning linux the shit really hit the fan. No matter if Sony is right or wrong, in the end they are simply fucking stupid for provoking the shit-fan.

I have a solution! (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36093464)

Why don't we make games that have an immersive, long playing, single player story! That way, in the even of an internet outage or lack of internet access, players can still enjoy the game! Maybe we can even add in multiple endings and top it all off with some multiplayer modes!

Oh, wait...this sounds familiar. They only did this until the current generation, but oh look, easy money on the internet!

That's right (2)

ashidosan (1790808) | more than 3 years ago | (#36093566)

developers who rely on PSN revenues may jump ship if they aren't compensated

I was going to hack my firmware and distribute my PSN-capable homebrew software, but now that Sony has shown they care nothing for its users, I'll take my business elsewhere.

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