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Amazon Removes Yaoi Manga Titles From Kindle Store

timothy posted more than 3 years ago | from the think-of-the-kindling dept.

Censorship 450

Repossessed writes "Amazon is now cracking down on Yaoi manga, with several titles that have been available on the Kindle since 2009 being delisted and others now being rejected, according to Digital Manga Publisher. DMP has also stated that Amazon has not given any rationale for the rejections and removals, and Amazon has not been answering emails or phone calls from journalists asking about the subject."

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WITH A TERRORIST NAME LIKE THAT IT SHOULD BE !! (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36131398)

Just think of the children, and the TSA pat-downs of them !! Bin D-e-a-d Laden has a hole where his head was, but that won't stop these terrorists from terrorizing !!

Re:SPAM UPPERCASE STUFF (0, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36131410)

I am trying really hard to find the relevance in your comment, but I cannot.

Yes Bin Laden is dead and yes that has very little to do with this article.

Wow (1, Funny)

Aerorae (1941752) | more than 3 years ago | (#36131412)

Homophobic AND racist. I am so disappointed in you Amazon!

Re:Wow (1)

Aerorae (1941752) | more than 3 years ago | (#36131420)

(yeah, it's sarcasm, folks)

About time (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36131416)

Amazon has not been answering calls.. and you find this odd? WTF is wrong with todays world? Why should they give a rats ass what the caller has to say about some gay kiddie porn ? They should take the call, trace it, then send in a few ... well.. enough... Thank You Amazon. when it comes down to these derelicts wanting their rights, give me a shot gun.. no, an RPG, and we'll "discuss" it.

Re:About time (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36131528)

Amazon has not been answering calls.. and you find this odd? WTF is wrong with todays world? Why should they give a rats ass what the caller has to say about some gay kiddie porn ? They should take the call, trace it, then send in a few ... well.. enough... Thank You Amazon. when it comes down to these derelicts wanting their rights, give me a shot gun.. no, an RPG, and we'll "discuss" it.

Yaoi is not "Gay Kiddie Porn". Get your facts straight.

Re:About time (-1, Troll)

gearloos (816828) | more than 3 years ago | (#36131742)

yes it is. go away. Im to tired to say what I need to....loser, degenerate.. etc... it all fits..

Re:About time (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36131548)

Bet you won't be so happy when they censor your right-wing gun magazines or "Good O'l Boy" red-neck books. I don't like a lot of weird books, myself, but I respect the rights of those that want to create and/or read them.

Re:About time (-1, Troll)

gearloos (816828) | more than 3 years ago | (#36131754)

If I was 12 and the gun was up my ass, yes, but in this context no. you have no idea what we have acually been fighting for on the free speech/digital world front. go home, close your door, and be happy that you dont feel the cold steel of a congressmans favorite toy against your flesh.

alternatives to Amazon (3, Insightful)

Black Parrot (19622) | more than 3 years ago | (#36131426)

Can't say I'll miss porn written for schoolgirls, but in general Amazon has been adopting such a manipulative corporate mindset that I have to hold my nose to use them anymore. Where do people go when they give up Amazon?

Re:alternatives to Amazon (4, Insightful)

betterunixthanunix (980855) | more than 3 years ago | (#36131498)

Where do people go when they give up Amazon?

Back to paper books? I can think of half a dozen independent book stores within walking distance of my home, and I am in a medium sized town.

Re:alternatives to Amazon (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36131808)

Then your medium-sized town is an exception.

Re:alternatives to Amazon (2)

davester666 (731373) | more than 3 years ago | (#36131504)

iTunes. And Walmart.

Re:alternatives to Amazon (5, Funny)

SuricouRaven (1897204) | more than 3 years ago | (#36131850)

"Can't say I'll miss porn written for schoolgirls,"

Maybe they'll ban Twilight next.

WTF is "Yaoi Manga?" (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36131428)

WTF is "Yaoi Manga?"

(Google)

Oh, it's anime-style gay child porn comics.

Gee, I wonder why Amazon might want to not sell that?

Re:WTF is "Yaoi Manga?" (3, Insightful)

dbIII (701233) | more than 3 years ago | (#36131466)

It's this weird idea that a book about something is the same as that thing. To get an idea of how stupid that is think about all the books, movies, TV shows etc about murder.

Not that I'm interested in the following... okay? (5, Informative)

Pseudonym Authority (1591027) | more than 3 years ago | (#36131478)

Bullshit, yaoi is just gay hentai, (where as yuri is lesbian hentai). Shotacon is, usually gay, hentai with little boys, (and lolicon is hentai with little girls, if you were just dying to know).

Re:Not that I'm interested in the following... oka (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36131526)

Bullshit, yaoi is just gay hentai, (where as yuri is lesbian hentai).

WTF is hentai?

(Google)

Oh, it's child porn comics.

I'm so glad we've cleared up the difference between boy-on-boy gay child porn comics (yaoi) and girl-on-girl lesbian child porn comics. Thanks for the clarification.

Re:Not that I'm interested in the following... oka (2, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36131722)

I think your Google is broken.

Re:WTF is "Yaoi Manga?" (2, Informative)

CTU (1844100) | more than 3 years ago | (#36131812)

Strange as that is wrong

"Stories focusing on sexual relationships between males, normally aimed at a female readership. May contain quite explicit sexual scenes. The more explicit titles tend to be shrink-wrapped." [http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Yaoi+manga&tbs=dfn:1&tbo=u&sa=X&ei=9IDPTZ2-L4mjtgf7hrX6DQ&ved=0CBYQkQ4] we may not like it, but some people do and it is no child porn so next excuse?

Couldn't you define it in the summary? (3, Insightful)

artor3 (1344997) | more than 3 years ago | (#36131438)

Do you really think everyone knows what Yaoi manga is?

Re:Couldn't you define it in the summary? (5, Funny)

Rakshasa Taisab (244699) | more than 3 years ago | (#36131442)

And remove the joy of discovery when you google the term? Why for...

Re:Couldn't you define it in the summary? (1)

TubeSteak (669689) | more than 3 years ago | (#36131768)

And remove the joy of discovery when you google the term? Why for...

...the sake of Senator Santorum.
I'll wait while you google his name.

Re:Couldn't you define it in the summary? (2)

SCPRedMage (838040) | more than 3 years ago | (#36131782)

Jon Stewart wants his joke back.

Re:Couldn't you define it in the summary? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36131454)

Here? I'd bet "yes".

Re:Couldn't you define it in the summary? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36131458)

Yeah, they should at least post a link to the Wikipedia article if they're not going to bother explaining the term. Oh wait...

Re:Couldn't you define it in the summary? (3, Insightful)

pieisgood (841871) | more than 3 years ago | (#36131470)

That's why there is a link to the wikipedia article in the summary. So you can find out.

Re:Couldn't you define it in the summary? (2)

Black Parrot (19622) | more than 3 years ago | (#36131500)

That's why there is a link to the wikipedia article in the summary. So you can find out.

So now we're expected to RTFWL too, huh?

Re:Couldn't you define it in the summary? (1)

artor3 (1344997) | more than 3 years ago | (#36131510)

Links in the summary often point to TFA. Nobody reads those.

And I did click it and find out, but it would be nice to have a one line description in the summary. That is what summaries are for, after all. Plus, the Wikipedia article describes it as "Boy Love" and only later mentions that its not pedophilic. I suspect that will cause problems that a quick definition could have avoided.

Re:Couldn't you define it in the summary? (2)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36131578)

Dude, you're reading a website. Complaining about not knowing something, where the term is linked plainly and clearly to free website that plainly defines the term.

And instead you logged in, took the effort and time to write a short complaint, and posted it, instead of clicking on that link? Holy. Hell.

Re:Couldn't you define it in the summary? (4, Funny)

Kenja (541830) | more than 3 years ago | (#36131628)

Has to be linked at some point I guess.

http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2005/4/11/ [penny-arcade.com]

Re:Couldn't you define it in the summary? (1)

jhoegl (638955) | more than 3 years ago | (#36131634)

Awesome.... awesome to the max.

Re:Couldn't you define it in the summary? (1)

gmhowell (26755) | more than 3 years ago | (#36131720)

Awesome.... awesome to the max.

Not as awesome as dickwolves, but IRL trolling is always win.

Re:Couldn't you define it in the summary? (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36131644)

Re:Couldn't you define it in the summary? (1)

artor3 (1344997) | more than 3 years ago | (#36131686)

Oh, how I wish I had mod points.

Re:Couldn't you define it in the summary? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36131826)

Yeah, I know. You could mod him down as "redundant" then. Or if you're a coward, overrated.

Don't let One Distributor Control eBooks! (5, Insightful)

rolfwind (528248) | more than 3 years ago | (#36131444)

This was always the paradox of ebooks. By every measure, ebooks should have the first thing that easily came to the computer. Files sizes were small and text was one of the first things reasonably conquered by computers. In the early days, sound cards were necessary to play music, video files were just goddamned intensive.... and yet as a medium, books came last after everything else.

Now, we're stuck with Amazon/Apple being the central distributors, they're start going to decide more and more on content for whatever reason. At least music players, you can load it up as an mp3 file and there are several music stores online to choose from. Even Apple managed to talk RIAA out of DRM. But publishers are going to be signing their own death warrant, building up their masters for the immediate (and false) security of DRM.

I love things in a digital format. But I really, really hate how the distribution model is playing out. This is the eBay model. One central place, it's convenient in some ways, but you play by their rules or you don't play at all, and if they decide to fuck you, they really fuck you.

We need to get away from the eBay model from these greedy ass companies, or it's going to be a damned bleak and bland future. We need to move over to the google shopping model, decentralized and seperate stores/vendor offering their wares connected by an neutraol aggregator (which lets people review service) and a whitelist for the cautious type.

I'm getting really sick of the direction these gadgets are heading.

Re:Don't let One Distributor Control eBooks! (3, Interesting)

zmughal (1343549) | more than 3 years ago | (#36131514)

yet as a medium, books came last after everything else.

No, they didn't. Text files were always readily available on different networks. It's just that the general public would rather get a dead tree copy than use up paper on printing them out or read them sitting in front the computer screen. What we see now is a less tech-savvy public that would rather pull all their media from central distributors anyway, because they are ignorant of the alternatives. This is why DRM is being thrust upon us without a mass uproar.

Re:Don't let One Distributor Control eBooks! (5, Insightful)

gmhowell (26755) | more than 3 years ago | (#36131750)

What we see now is a less tech-savvy public that would rather pull all their media from central distributors anyway, because they are ignorant of the alternatives. This is why DRM is being thrust upon us without a mass uproar.

Why do nerds always seem to not understand that people might not be ignorant: they might be apathetic. The theoretical losses due to DRM are outweighed by the perceived benefits. Here's a hint: indifference curve [wikipedia.org] . Yours is not mine.

Re:Don't let One Distributor Control eBooks! (4, Informative)

MimeticLie (1866406) | more than 3 years ago | (#36131516)

It's really only an issue for the Kindle folks right now. Other readers (Nook, Kobo, ect) can use EPUB files, available from many different sources. If Amazon starts driving smaller stores out of business or the other stores start censoring as well, then it might be cause for concern. As it is, you can still find Yaoi from Barnes and Noble:

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/King-of-Debt/Sanae-Rokuya/e/2940012508836/?itm=1&USRI=king+of+debt [barnesandnoble.com]

Re:Don't let One Distributor Control eBooks! (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36131830)

Kindle can use those epub files as well. It just requires a simple, quick conversion to mobi using freely downloadable software (Calibre, among, I'm sure, others).

Re:Don't let One Distributor Control eBooks! (1)

obarthelemy (160321) | more than 3 years ago | (#36131672)

I'm going to be branded a socialist, but I think we need a system where DRM is NOT dependent on proprietary software and servers. The various industries/actors don't seem to be putting that in place, so I guess it would fall to the government to force it. Pretty much like they're standardizing car fuel so any station can supply any car, pizza toppings....

It would be good to have a single system (so content could move from one device to another), independent from original vendor (so one company's failure / change of mind doesn't lock us out of our own, paid for, content).

Re:Don't let One Distributor Control eBooks! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36131820)

Uh. How about having no DRM and instead have the government create some limitations on who is allowed to copy what.
Oh wait.

Re:Don't let One Distributor Control eBooks! (1)

myotheridislower (2144830) | more than 3 years ago | (#36131738)

Fortunately, there's a third option other than playing by their rules or not playing at all. Play by your own rules. There are many sites to download ebooks and audiobooks for free without DRM. I recently graduated college and didn't pay a dime for text books, found downloads for almost all of them and the ones I couldn't I just used the library's copy, and made photocopies of pages I needed to take. The corporate model can be broken by simply ignoring their screams for money. Paying for content is so 20th century. We're living in a time when an Ethernet cable gives you access to every piece of media and content you could ever want or imagine, and all for free.

Re:Don't let One Distributor Control eBooks! (1)

CTU (1844100) | more than 3 years ago | (#36131822)

Must be nice. I can never find a copy of my books online (except for 1 time)

Re:Don't let One Distributor Control eBooks! (1)

houghi (78078) | more than 3 years ago | (#36131794)

decentralized and seperate stores/vendor offering their wares connected by an neutraol aggregator

Why just one aggregator? I would love to have several or even many. A bit like you used to have bookstores.

You could have a Google one, a Yahoo one, One that is not neutral, like the publisher, one that is for kids books, one that has only SF. And even for those not just one, but several. Individuals could make ones as well with the books THEY have.

Centralization is where the problem started, so THAT must be gone.

Meanwhile still availible: (4, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36131448)

Meanwhile still availible:

"Titles currently available on Kindle include Christmas Creampie, a graphic novel in which “horny Whoreville hussies show a frustrated dildo shop owner the true meaning of Christmas,” and Little Lorna in Resort Sports (I’m not even going to link to this one), in which Little Lorna, who is spunky, sexy, but “not too bright,” goes on vacation to Mexico with her Uncle Bob; “nudity, spanking, and sexy humor” result.
So apparently a sweet love story between two men is unacceptable, but an orgy in a dildo shop is OK."

http://robot6.comicbookresources.com/2011/05/too-hot-for-kindle-amazon-pulls-yaoi-from-kindle-store/ [comicbookresources.com]

Re:Meanwhile still availible: (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36131668)

I'd guess that those are still there because they star ADULTS and aren't, ya know, kiddie porn. Unlike, say, yaoi.

Call it a hunch.

Re:Meanwhile still availible: (1)

Nutria (679911) | more than 3 years ago | (#36131710)

Little Lorna + Uncle Bob seems an awful lot like M/f (i.e. KP and statutory rape) incest to me...

Re:Meanwhile still availible: (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36131814)

Yaoi isn't kiddie porn. It's just good ol' drawn gay porn. Drawn gay kiddie porn is usually labeled as "shotacon."

Re:Meanwhile still availible: (3, Funny)

jhoegl (638955) | more than 3 years ago | (#36131728)

How deep did you go to find this?

Amazon != bookstore (2)

oheso (898435) | more than 3 years ago | (#36131450)

They have consistently shown they're in the money biz, and don't give a fig about art or freedom of speech.

Re:Amazon != bookstore (3, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36131534)

If they were just in the "money" business, this content would just be another set of SKUs in their inventory. The problem, if what is being alleged is true, is that they are in the "ideology" business.

Re:Amazon != bookstore (0)

Nutria (679911) | more than 3 years ago | (#36131716)

ideology????

Since when do I not get to decide what I want to not sell in my store?

Re:Amazon != bookstore (3, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36131746)

If you don't sell something because it doesn't generate you money, it is called business sense.

If you don't sell something because you don't like it, that's ideology. (Especially if it would generate you money.)

Re:Amazon != bookstore (1, Troll)

DurendalMac (736637) | more than 3 years ago | (#36131552)

Oh no, Amazon decided not to sell what amounts to comic kiddie porn that could EASILY get them busted for distributing "obscenity" in the US. Yes, obscenity laws are fucking idiotic, but they're still out there on the books and those who distribute it can get in a load of shit. Just ask Max Hardcore.

Re:Amazon != bookstore (1)

jhoegl (638955) | more than 3 years ago | (#36131638)

Pretty much this.
Free speech is limited by those willing to defend the speech.

Re:Amazon != bookstore (1, Troll)

Nutria (679911) | more than 3 years ago | (#36131734)

Free speech is limited by those willing to defend the speech.

True enough, except a total misapplication to the current issue.

Amazon is a private enterprise and thus within broad limits gets to chose what it wants to sell. They aren't lobbying for a ban the nationwide selling of yaoi, or lead boycotts or go on Fox News or any of that kind of stuff.

Re:Amazon != bookstore (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36131662)

no the article says yaoi not loli

Re:Amazon != bookstore (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36131690)

Oh no, Amazon decided not to sell what amounts to comic kiddie porn

Yaoi is any gay porn, usually of the male-on-male variety. Two 70-year old men going at it is Yaoi.

As for the worry about "child pornography", that's something Amazon already has to worry about with any image of a nude or partially nude person. Many countries have lower age limits than the US, and often do not consider any drawn image to be porn regardless of the subject material.

Amazon needs to quit being such a bunch of pussies. Technically speaking the book "To Kill a Mockingbird" is child porn because it contains a child rape scene, and "The Simpsons Movie" also qualifies due to Bart's naked skateboarding scene.

Re:Amazon != bookstore (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36131852)

Yaoi is not (necessarily) kiddie porn. (That would be classified as lolicon or shotacon.) Yaoi is simply any material that involves a (generally idealized) romantic relationship between two men.

Out of the four titles that I found in my (admittedly cursory) examination of the linked articles, two dealt with solely with individuals who were at least old enough to be in college, and two with high-school students. The latter, I suppose, could be classified as "kiddie porn" (for some definition of the term), but the first two definitely are not such. (Note that the fact that the characters are enrolled in high school does not necessarily mean that they are under the age of consent, even in the United States, and, in fact, a lot of pornographic material from Japan depicting high school characters explicitly holds that they are over 18.)

And one would think that Amazon would be the first to make sure that everyone knows that it's in the business of eradicating child pornography, correct?

Re:Amazon != bookstore (2)

LordLucless (582312) | more than 3 years ago | (#36131780)

I never realised the purpose of a bookstore was to depend freedom of speech. I thought it was to sell books.

Not that defending freedom of speech isn't a good thing, but it's not really an essential part of the definition of a bookstore.

And the censorship continues. (2, Insightful)

rebelwarlock (1319465) | more than 3 years ago | (#36131476)

It doesn't matter what you think of yaoi, or manga, or erotica in general. Surely you can see where this is going. Stop supporting the thought police and put your money into companies that don't censor books. Amazon won't stop until they lose enough money. There's no telling when they'll start ruining classics.

Re:And the censorship continues. (1)

artor3 (1344997) | more than 3 years ago | (#36131524)

There's no telling when they'll start ruining classics.

Have you ever bought a classic on Amazon? They're mostly crappy OCR jobs, rife with errors.

(To be fair, that's not Amazon's fault, and they're only a dollar at any rate)

Re:And the censorship continues. (1, Flamebait)

DurendalMac (736637) | more than 3 years ago | (#36131542)

Did it even REMOTELY occur to you that selling this stuff in the US could get ugly? Ever heard of obscenity laws? Yes, they're fucking stupid, but they're still out there, and Amazon could get busted for distribution of it. They stand to lose a lot more money from that than a few dozen pedos getting butthurt that they can't get yaoi on Amazon anymore.

Re:And the censorship continues. (1)

betterunixthanunix (980855) | more than 3 years ago | (#36131558)

...and so we do nothing to correct this censorship problem, where even cartoons can be labelled "obscene."

Re:And the censorship continues. (2)

DurendalMac (736637) | more than 3 years ago | (#36131596)

What interest does Amazon have in spending potentially MILLIONS on a case that nets them almost no benefit and could cost them dearly? Obscenity laws have come to the Supreme Court before and were upheld. Hell, the courts (can't remember if it went all the way to the SC) ruled that ANY community can hold the whole fucking internet hostage when it comes to obscenity. Is your content "obscene" to some tightass bunch of moral crusaders? You could do time. No fucking joke. It's godawful and NEEDS to change, but I don't think Amazon has a huge interest in seeing that happen. They have little to gain.

Re:And the censorship continues. (1)

bluemonq (812827) | more than 3 years ago | (#36131740)

How come Lolita hasn't run afoul of obscenity laws? Amazon has it for the Kindle, $12.

Re:And the censorship continues. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36131844)

Mostly? No pictures.

Re:And the censorship continues. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36131866)

"Yaoi, also known as Boys' Love, is a Japanese popular term for female-oriented fictional media that focus on homoerotic or homoromantic male relationships, usually created by female authors." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yaoi)

Yaoi can depict people of any age. It is not synonymous with child pornography. (That would be shotacon or lolicon.)

dongs galore (5, Funny)

eltardo (160932) | more than 3 years ago | (#36131490)

As long as I can still buy 12" double sided dildos on Amazon, I'm good.

Amazon was offended, end of story (4, Interesting)

Jeremy Erwin (2054) | more than 3 years ago | (#36131506)

Amazon's content requirements [amazon.com] are very clear. Even if the material is not pornographic, it can still offend-- and Amazon is not obligated to explain why it has chosen to take offense.

Re:Amazon was offended, end of story (1)

WoollyMittens (1065278) | more than 3 years ago | (#36131556)

A company with the dominance and influence of Amazon must be held to higher standards, for the common good.

Re:Amazon was offended, end of story (2)

betterunixthanunix (980855) | more than 3 years ago | (#36131570)

Those "common" folk whose "good" you are protecting are complicit in the censorship; the overwhelming majority of people in the United States support obscenity laws and whatnot. Most people do not really care about Yaoi manga being removed form Amazon, and quite a few people in America will applaud Amazon for being a "family friendly company" that protects their children from any depiction of sexuality (certainly HOMOSEXUALITY).

Re:Amazon was offended, end of story (1, Troll)

LordLucless (582312) | more than 3 years ago | (#36131790)

Ahh, yes, the "some are more equal than others" argument. Luckily, Amazon still sells Animal Farm.

On another note, I was thinking of organising a rally against Krogers for not stocking Kraft Stringers. I assume you'll be joining me to protest this criminal infringement of my right to determine what vendors must be forced to stock.

Re:Amazon was offended, end of story (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36131592)

I am offended that they are so offended that they had to remove those titles.
Why can't they remove their removal?

cap: calfskin
How fitting, next showing a girl's calves would be offending. Back to Victorian age for all!

Walmartization (1)

jeti (105266) | more than 3 years ago | (#36131622)

If this goes on, Amazon will do to books what Walmart has done to movies.

Re:Amazon was offended, end of story (1)

Mr. Slippery (47854) | more than 3 years ago | (#36131624)

and Amazon is not obligated to explain why it has chosen to take offense.

And we are not obligated to do business with censoring fucktards who should be first against the wall when the revolution comes. This is not a first offense. [unreasonable.org] Anyone still doing business with Amazon is either clueless or does not care about freedom.

Re:Amazon was offended, end of story (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36131632)

So they sell Lolita ($11.99) but they won't sell adult yaoi?

I'm a heterosexual who spends a LOT of money on Amazon. I don't read yaoi, but I read manga, watch anime, and buy all sorts of computer, groceries, and shop supplies and equipment on Amazon, to an average of $1,200 a month. While this doesn't affect me directly, it's insulting that a company is going to make a choice like this. What next, they get a complaint about computer hacking and yank my programming titles off my Kindle? I own 2 DXs.

I thought they learned with 1984. Now Amazon is pulling a Sony. Shit. Another freaking set of devices down the tube.

WTF Amazon. Seriously, what the freaking hell. I stay away from Apple due to this crap, and now you're going to that way? Screw you.

Re:Amazon was offended, end of story (1)

bluemonq (812827) | more than 3 years ago | (#36131748)

To be fair, it seems like they're at least not deleting copies from Kindles.

You just can't one click buy it. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36131518)

You can still buy any ebook formatted kindle style and use it with the kindle via usb drag and drop. You just can't conveniently one click buy it.

Can this discussion actually be constructive? (4, Interesting)

Art Popp (29075) | more than 3 years ago | (#36131536)

I'd be curious as to whether someone has a better model in mind on how this should be done.

Given:

The Amazon Kindle Terms and Conditions: “We are entitled to determine what content we accept and distribute through the Program in our sole discretion.”

The anime.net definition of Yaoi:
          An acronym standing for YAma nashi, Ochi nashi, Imi nashi – No Climax, no point, no meaning. It’s used
          to describe manga/anime focusing on male relationships, not avoiding strong, graphically portrayed homosexual
          themes. Very often, yaoi story focuses only on the sex, ignoring elements like true plot, emotions or characters development.

There really is zero doubt as to why Amazon didn't want this on the Kindle. I don't know why there are any “phone calls from journalists asking about the subject.” If you live in the US, clearly the Kindle's primary market, then you know that there are a large number of people here who would spontaneously combust if the they found their tweenager reading this stuff as a “Lend Me” book on their Kindle.

Given that this content is available online (and in color) it would seem a difficult niche to make money on, which would be required to re-engineer your whole e-book system to have age-sections/age-bars. Simply rating 900,000 ebooks so you could decide their category would be a serious expense.

So my questions are:

        Would such ratings be more valuable than they would be a tool for greater censorship?

        What scale would you use?

        Is this is project we should Open/Crowd-Source?

        Where would you rate: The Canterbury Tales, Sons and Lovers, 1984?

        The above are available on the Kindle store now. Would an rating system that we implemented make them available to more or fewer total humans?

Re:Can this discussion actually be constructive? (1)

Black Parrot (19622) | more than 3 years ago | (#36131576)

I'd be curious as to whether someone has a better model in mind on how this should be done.

Given:

The Amazon Kindle Terms and Conditions: “We are entitled to determine what content we accept and distribute through the Program in our sole discretion.”

That's an easy one: don't buy a media device controlled by a single content provider.

Re:Can this discussion actually be constructive? (1)

brillow (917507) | more than 3 years ago | (#36131604)

There should be no ratings. Any rating system is imperfect and will not please everyone. Parents should either chose to decide or not to decide on what's appropriate on a case by case basis. This is fine since no book is going to permanently damage a kid. What's the worst that could happen?

Either a parent will decide a kid can download anything they want, or have to get permission for each. Amazon is not going to condone or prohibit specific books for specific ages. Doing so will only get them in trouble as the will inevitably offend one group or another. They should treat the Kindle store as a library.

I am however, one of those people who believe that unlimited knowledge for all ages is only a good thing.

Re:Can this discussion actually be constructive? (3, Insightful)

dwillden (521345) | more than 3 years ago | (#36131854)

A few posters have said no to rating systems. Why no ratings?

While not perfect, does the MPAA rating scheme not give you at a glance a general idea as to how kid (or adult) friendly a movie is? Probably shouldn't be taking the kindergarten kids to see that R movie. Similar with the game rating system. Neither system is perfect. Stuff gets mis-rated all the time, but in a general sense they and the music system are all great for giving parents a good general idea as to what they will allow their children to see, play, listen too, or read if we extend to this new area of ratings.

As a parent I want to be able to tell at a glance, regardless of the name, whether or not I want my young kids to see it. A movie name, and often even the trailers can give very poor cues as to the maturity of the film.

Similarly I don't want to go see what I think is a good action adventure/spy film and find out after I've put down my money that it's a kids film, based around CGI newts. I'll take my young kids to G and maybe PG movies and my dates to PG-13 or R movies. Such a rating system would be great for books as well. Not all parents are avid readers. Some would rather chew their own foot off before reading a book. Even if it is to see if the content is allowable within their moral guidelines for their kids. A rating system would allow them to make fairly safe authorizations based on rating levels.

Not all subjects are fine at all ages. Reading some topics, or viewing some materials at too young an age really can harm a child psychologically, introduce them to concepts their mind isn't mature enough to handle yet and the results can be quite harmful.

A rating system is not censorship. The books are still published, and still available. A rating system allows those with moral or similar objections to some materials to avoid those materials, while still allowing those with no objections to the materials to enjoy them. Censorship is saying "I don't like that book, ban it so nobody can read it." This is saying "I don't like that book, and don't want that smut in my house. But thank you for giving me a way to determine it's content without having to subject my mind to it. But anyone else who wants to read it can." Yes this does allow for close minded people to avoid certain topics or materials, but it does not deny any other adults access to those same materials. And as for the children of the close minded adults, when they grow up they can choose to access the materials.

Re:Can this discussion actually be constructive? (2)

betterunixthanunix (980855) | more than 3 years ago | (#36131608)

I'd be curious as to whether someone has a better model in mind on how this should be done.

The Kindle should be able to display and process books from retailers other than Amazon, so that Amazon does not have so much control over what books people are able to obtain. It is absurd to think that people should need multiple book readers just to have options to buy books from other sources.

If you live in the US, clearly the Kindle's primary market, then you know that there are a large number of people here who would spontaneously combust if the they found their tweenager reading this stuff as a âoeLend Meâ book on their Kindle.

Then those parents should speak to their children about why such things are not allowed in the house. If their children are willing to break the rules even with their parents explaining why the rules exist, then they will find a way to obtain the books without Amazon's help. The real question here is, why should Amazon be playing the role of parent, and why is it that one particular parenting style is the one that Amazon is worrying about? What about all those people who want to teach their children that censorship and oppression are wrong and unacceptable?

Would such ratings be more valuable than they would be a tool for greater censorship?

No, they would have no value at all.

Is this is project we should Open/Crowd-Source?

Considering that censorship flies in the face of everything that the Free Software Foundation and Open Source movement stand for, no, it is not.

Would an rating system that we implemented make them available to more or fewer total humans?

Fewer.

Re:Can this discussion actually be constructive? (1)

bluemonq (812827) | more than 3 years ago | (#36131778)

The Kindle should be able to display and process books from retailers other than Amazon, so that Amazon does not have so much control over what books people are able to obtain

I hate to be *that* guy, but there's already an ereader that allows you to display and process books from retailers other than Amazon. It's called the iPad. You can read Kobo/Borders and Barnes & Noble books on it, as well as from other stores as well. Don't like the iPad? There's the Motorola Xoom. And the LG G Slate. And Samsung's Galaxy Tab and Tab 10.1. And the Dell Streak 5, though that's getting a bit on the small side. You could even hack the Barnes & Noble nook to run other ebookstore apps, making it the cheapest option.

Right from the start Amazon was upfront about the Kindle only being able to purchase ebooks from Amazon, and they offer multiple ways of getting ebooks from them. This isn't even like the iPhone, where you can't run iOS apps on non-Apple devices.

Re:Can this discussion actually be constructive? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36131856)

There's already an ereader that allows you to display and process books from retailers other than Amazon. It's called the Kindle. I have lots of books on my Kindle that aren't from Amazon.

Re:Can this discussion actually be constructive? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36131792)

"I'd be curious as to whether someone has a better model in mind on how this should be done."

Like leave the content alone. If they sell the physical book, they should sell the Kindle version if available.

"The Amazon Kindle Terms and Conditions: "

I don't give a shit what the terms say. T&Cs are legalese to cover their asses. Customers don't care. It really boils down to something simple. I own 2 DXs. They censor, I don't buy. Not just Kindle products, but other products from Amazon. This is a dumb move; even if they are cracking down on all porn, there is a strong perception this was driven by homophobic reasons, which when called on, they've now extended to try to remove other erotic/graphic material to make it seem more fair after the fact.

"There really is zero doubt as to why Amazon didn't want this on the Kindle" ...
"a large number of people here who would spontaneously combust if the they found their tweenager reading this stuff "

I would hope in the US that those who believe in free speech and what a company has said in the past about their device would easily outnumber those stupid, irresponsible parents.

Similarly, I would think that living in the US, most people would take their money away from a company that censors. And hold that company to their word. Bezos has stated in numerous interviews during the release of the Kindle 2 that the goal of the Kindle was to get every book published available on it. I guess he lied.

"Given that this content is available online (and in color) it would seem a difficult niche to make money"

You didn't read the links. They make a sizable number of sales from Amazon.

btw, what's a niche? Programming is a niche. They sell programming books. Welding is a niche. They sell those books.

Also, Kindle is in color if the source is and the display is. Kindle isn't limited to the eink readers. The reader on PC renders full color. I would imagine other devices that have an Kindle app does as well. My welding books, couple science books, almost all covers, and 2 manga I bought from them all have the relevant pages and photos in color.

"Simply rating 900,000 ebooks so you could decide their category would be a serious expense."

It would not be difficult to password protect the buying process on a Kindle. Or to make digital downloads to a device impossible except via web and constrained access through digital subscriptions on the website. None would incur a serious expense, in fact it would be trivial to implement. So there goes that argument completely.

All this is coming to mean is that I'll be buying the Kindle (since as a reader it's great), and using Amazon as a source less and less. I've already started with O'Reilly having finally gotten their ass in gear. Guess I'll be buying my manga from the original publishers and cutting Amazon out.

Scenes from Sakuracon (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36131538)

http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2005/4/11/

Re:Scenes from Sakuracon (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36131574)

Ehh, hyperlinks are good . . . Sakuracon [penny-arcade.com]

Amazon Deleting 1984 Was a Warning... (5, Insightful)

Ron Bennett (14590) | more than 3 years ago | (#36131546)

After Amazon remotely deleted 1984 (ironic to say the least), this is no surprise. It would be akin to a book seller breaking into one's home to take back a book one had already bought; "licensed" is the loophole Amazon and other on-line book sellers uses to get around the 1st sale doctrine to restrict, or even often forbid, resale, sharing, etc.

More to the point, the 1984 incident illustrated well that Kindles, much like many mobile devices, are designed with remote deletion in mind - there was an article on here the other day about Google remotely deleting apps.

While Amazon supposedly agreed they will refrain from utilizing remote deletion in the future, the feature still exists. On a related note, even if the device out of the box doesn't support remote deletion, any device that accepts software updates with little (ie. Bluray players; inserting a disc) to no user intervention (mobile phones) can easily be programmed to remotely restrict / delete / self-destruct.

Among the best defenses against remote deletion / restrictions are widely used, non-DRM formats that can be easily copied and widely distributed, as well as, easily compared / verified to ensure the contents haven't changed...

To digress a tad, it's only a matter of time, assuming it's not already happened, before some company, such as Amazon, doesn't remotely delete a book, but rather silently modifies some of the content *after* purchase without telling the customer.

Ron

Re:Amazon Deleting 1984 Was a Warning... (5, Insightful)

DaScribbler (701492) | more than 3 years ago | (#36131626)

You left out the point that when Amazon removed 1984 (and Animal Farm too) from Kindle devices, it was because it was discovered that the books were added to the Kindle store by a publisher that didn't have the rights to sell the books. And that the books were subsequently re-added to the Kindle store by the publisher that DID have the rights to them. The customers were refunded and credited for their troubles.

The analogy that it's akin to breaking into one's home is a bit of a stretch.

Re:Amazon Deleting 1984 Was a Warning... (1)

RadiantPhoenix (2029232) | more than 3 years ago | (#36131642)

They should never have deleted them; they should have cut out the intermediary step and sent the money to the new publisher; I don't see why this is anything less than obvious.

Re:Amazon Deleting 1984 Was a Warning... (1)

DaScribbler (701492) | more than 3 years ago | (#36131676)

Because a book, even an ebook, is more than just the contents as penned by the writer. There's copywright notice, credits, another publisher's stamp on the book, etc.. To the reader/end-user it's not a non-issue, but to the publishers it's a big deal.

Re:Amazon Deleting 1984 Was a Warning... (3)

cmholm (69081) | more than 3 years ago | (#36131718)

The copyright issue was besides the point... which was the ease with which Amazon nuked the digital volumes. As a consumer of printed works, I want the sale to remain final, regardless of whether the distributor later has a change of heart given their perception of business, legal, moral, or national security issues.

Fahrenheit 451: Still Relevant (1)

cmholm (69081) | more than 3 years ago | (#36131694)

For years I've hoped for someone to remake Fahrenheit 451 with a script that was reasonably close to the book. I was more than a little disappointed when Gibson dropped the project on the theory that (per Wikipedia) "with the advent of computers, the concept of book-burning in a futuristic period may no longer work."

Ah, but that was before the Kindle, and the 451 test run in the form of the 1984 and Animal Farm erasures. From my POV, in the 451 universe, when books were outlawed by (presumably) an Act of Congress (excepting technical manuals and comic books, IIRC), the first thing to go would be Kindle and iBooks. It would be almost too easy. The hard part would be tracking down the contraband bound volumes, which brings us back to page 1 of our story, and Guy smelling of kerosene.

Relevant contact addresse? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36131724)

Need working email address for complaints. Bezos. Kindle. Feedback. Some place we can direct comments to them showing them how wrong they are.

Even if is in their guidelines, they need to explain themselves fully on this one, as it seems they started censoring with this subject matter first compared to all the other visually photographic and non-yaoi but explicit manga material as cited in the story's last link. They got caught and maybe have moved on, but if so, even two wrongs don't make a right.

I don't read yaoi, but I've invested in several Kindles, and buy a lot from Amazon, and I'm PISSED right now. Not sure why fair market, free speech, anime and manga groups, as well as GALA and related groups aren't up in arms about this. Even if they have started to crack down on heterosexual material as well, the perception is they went after homosexual material and are covering their asses, literally and figuratively.

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