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KDE 4.7 – a First Look At Beta 1

timothy posted more than 3 years ago | from the longevity-and-maturiity dept.

KDE 264

A few days ago, the KDE project shipped the first beta of the upcoming 4.7 release. Reader dmbkiwi submits a link to a rundown of what 4.7 looks like, snipping from which: "Previously it was Gnome that was the steady plodder making minor incremental changes through the 2.x series, building stability and only adding minor features. However, with the recent releases of both Gnome Shell and the Unity desktop on Ubuntu, the Gnome/Ubuntu side of the desktop linux equation has made radical and controversial steps away from the well loved Gnome 2.x series, leaving KDE 4.x as the 'steady as she goes' option."

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The interface doesn't need to be changed much (3, Interesting)

elucido (870205) | more than 3 years ago | (#36275272)

People who use KDE are typically coming from Windows so the default should look similar. However the good thing about linux is customizability. As long as we can customize it to look however we want most of us will be happy.

Gnome and Ubuntu Unity have removed the linux edge of customizability. It's only a matter of time before I switch from Gnome 2x to KDE 4x. The next big step for Linux would be to take advantage of 3d rendering to improve functionality further. The zoom is something I use on a regular basis. Perhaps being able to flip windows(frames) and being able to write on the back of them would be a useful feature as well. There are plenty of ideas for functional eye candy but I think linux is at the point now where it shouldn't look towards Windows or OSX for new feature ideas, and it shouldn't try to fix an interface which isn't broken, it should just be adding new features and options, new eye candy which increases usability, and new more powerful abilities, such as intelligent agents that a user can program to automate certain tasks such as burning a DVD, searching several search engines to find certain information on certain topics, all of this could benefit from agent based AI.

I suggested this to the linux community years ago and their excuse was there wasn't enough bandwidth. It's 2011. The majority of the country is broadband now. There is enough bandwidth to build an intelligent agent into KDE and if they wont do it then I might just go ahead and do it for them.

(For anyone who doesn't know what an intelligent agent is, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-agent_system [wikipedia.org] an agent is a robot, in this case multi-agent is multiple robots which search for and process specific information you tell it to. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_agent [wikipedia.org] )

The agents in a multi-agent system have several important characteristics:[4]
Autonomy: the agents are at least partially autonomous

Local views: no agent has a full global view of the system, or the system is too complex for an agent to make practical use of such knowledge

Decentralization: there is no designated controlling agent (or the system is effectively reduced to a monolithic system)[5]
Typically multi-agent systems research refers to software agents. However, the agents in a multi-agent system could equally well be robots,[6] humans or human teams. A multi-agent system may contain combined human-agent teams.

Re:The interface doesn't need to be changed much (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36275352)

The next big step for Linux would be to take advantage of 3d rendering to improve functionality further.

Yeah, we really need spinning cubes.

Re:The interface doesn't need to be changed much (2)

elucido (870205) | more than 3 years ago | (#36275364)

Thats actually not a bad idea. You could fit roughly 3 times the information (I hope my math is correct?) in the same space if you move from squares to cubes.

Re:The interface doesn't need to be changed much (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36275382)

A cube has six sides, so it should be six times more.

Re:The interface doesn't need to be changed much (1)

elucido (870205) | more than 3 years ago | (#36275420)

They could use any shape they want to project the windows onto. They could project it on a shape with more sides than a cube. They could even wrap windows around a sphere.

The fact is we need more screen realestate and 3d is one way of getting it.

Or stop fucking wasting space. (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36275488)

We don't need all of this 3D bullshit that you're proposing. We just need application developers to stop wasting screen space with stupid shit.

For crying out loud, look at the goddamn KDE 4.7 beta 1 screenshots in the article! LOOK AT HOW MUCH WASTED SPACE THERE IS! In the screenshot of Dolphin, look at how shitting massive the icons are! If they were half the size, you could get twice as many shown at once, and still be able to see the thumbnail image just fine.

Then there's all the wasted space to the right of the toolbars, and below the list of directories/places on the left side. In the "old days", we used to just put that shit in the menus, with it taking up very little space. But since menus aren't "trendy" these days, functionality that was conveniently hidden is now in-your-face and wasting a lot of screen real estate.

Look at the other screenshot. Everywhere you look, there's space wasted. What the fuck is the point of buying increasingly-larger monitors every year if the application developers will just triple the size of their icons and the empty space between UI components every few years?

Re:Or stop fucking wasting space. (3, Insightful)

Hultis (1969080) | more than 3 years ago | (#36275794)

Jevons paradox [wikipedia.org] . I'll just leave that here and let you think about how it works with increasingly fast hardware, increasing hard drive space and the obvious parallell to increasing screen real estate.

Re:Or stop fucking wasting space. (0)

Risen888 (306092) | more than 3 years ago | (#36275860)

In the screenshot of Dolphin, look at how shitting massive the icons are! If they were half the size, you could get twice as many shown at once, and still be able to see the thumbnail image just fine.

Then there's all the wasted space to the right of the toolbars, and below the list of directories/places on the left side. In the "old days", we used to just put that shit in the menus, with it taking up very little space. But since menus aren't "trendy" these days, functionality that was conveniently hidden is now in-your-face and wasting a lot of screen real estate.

You can change every one of those things in thirty seconds, you obnoxious piece of shit. Godalmightychrist, do you ever piss and moan.

Re:Or stop fucking wasting space. (3, Funny)

fnj (64210) | more than 3 years ago | (#36276026)

He may be a Gnome guy and simply doesn't realize that the KDE structure isn't designed by totalitarian bastards who KNOW what is BEST FOR YOU and damn sure won't be caught dead giving you the CONTROLS to actually TUNE IT.

Re:Or stop fucking wasting space. (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36276240)

That's still 30 seconds longer than it should take. This is just one of many mistakes that the KDE developers shouldn't have made in the first place.

Re:Or stop fucking wasting space. (2)

walshy007 (906710) | more than 3 years ago | (#36276140)

For crying out loud, look at the goddamn KDE 4.7 beta 1 screenshots in the article! LOOK AT HOW MUCH WASTED SPACE THERE IS! In the screenshot of Dolphin, look at how shitting massive the icons are! If they were half the size, you could get twice as many shown at once, and still be able to see the thumbnail image just fine.

Everyone that has been using kde since the pre-dolphin era uses konqueror for their local file storage browsing, dolphin is horrendous in comparison.

Those of us that use kde day to day likely don't encounter most of the suckier new items, simply because we keep on doing it the older way. (most useful aspect of konqueror imho, browsing sftp like it were local and copy/pasting etc like normal)

Re:Or stop fucking wasting space. (1)

M1FCJ (586251) | more than 3 years ago | (#36276306)

Also from the article, "reduced clutter"... It's not clutter people, it's functionality! Don't make them hidden / removed!

Re:The interface doesn't need to be changed much (2)

VortexCortex (1117377) | more than 3 years ago | (#36275494)

Uh... I already do this. [flickr.com]

Re:The interface doesn't need to be changed much (1)

Kjella (173770) | more than 3 years ago | (#36275736)

They could use any shape they want to project the windows onto. They could project it on a shape with more sides than a cube. They could even wrap windows around a sphere. The fact is we need more screen realestate and 3d is one way of getting it.

Reality check: How does this give me more screen real estate? My screen is 1920x1200 pixels no matter what. I can flip the contents by hitting alt-tab, clicking an icon on the taskbar, switching desktops, picking from a list of tabs or just plain scrolling down the page as well as plenty other "2.5D" ways that give me infinite space - just not all at once. I agree that sometimes pseudo-3D can be useful like say flipping through album covers or something, but there's inherently no more "space" in 3D and I'd rather not throw a 1d6 to find what face of the cube I left my window on. But this is another case where I suspect we'll get thrown into it because 3D > 2.5D but nobody will really check if it actually is an improvement.

The interface doesn't need to be changed AT ALL (1)

fnj (64210) | more than 3 years ago | (#36276020)

You're right. Actually your screen is NOT 1920 x 1200 - it's unlimited x unlimited because of multiple desktops. Your DISPLAY is a 1920 x 1200 WINDOW into this unlimited screen. These multiple desktops give you a SINGLE control to access all the information that is there. This is far better than a multitude of idiosyncratic 3D widgets on a single desktop, each of which contain separately hidden information (IMPOSSIBLE to discover without reading help systems I might add), with access SEPARATELY controlled by each of the multitude of widgets.

I'm with you. It AIN'T busted, the BEST solution has already been in place for a long time, DON'T try to "fix" it, kiddies.

Re:The interface doesn't need to be changed AT ALL (0)

WillKemp (1338605) | more than 3 years ago | (#36276218)

Multiple desktops are a pain in the arse. They really don't give you any more work space than having all your windows piled up on one desktop - specially if you've got a small screen.

The only way to get more desktop realestate (it's impossible to get more screen realestate without replacing your monitor/laptop) is to use a virtual desktop that's bigger than your screen size. I used that setup for many years - until X stopped supporting it on my laptop's video card for some reason.

Re:The interface doesn't need to be changed much (1)

similar_name (1164087) | more than 3 years ago | (#36276228)

You may be right that there is not a 'real' gain to desktop space with 3d vs say 2d multiple workspace solutions but I do prefer the desktop cube (or cylinder etc.) I generally keep my applications windowed so some part of the desktop is usually visible. I like being able to 'grab' the cube with the middle button and move it around to get to other desktops. I like being able to roll the wheel to flip through them.

I agree that sometimes pseudo-3D can be useful like say flipping through album covers or something

I know not everyone runs a lot of applications at once but if I'm running a dozen or so then flipping through them can be handy. Anyway, I don't know if anyone is forced to use 3d on the desktop right now so it's not much of a problem if you don't like it.

Re:The interface doesn't need to be changed much (1)

similar_name (1164087) | more than 3 years ago | (#36276086)

They could project it on a shape with more sides than a cube. They could even wrap windows around a sphere.

I like compiz [google.com] .

Re:The interface doesn't need to be changed much (1)

WillKemp (1338605) | more than 3 years ago | (#36276182)

The fact is we need more screen realestate and 3d is one way of getting it.

3D doesn't give you any more screen realestate at all - it's just a different way of organizing your open windows. You've still only got the same number or pixels in your screen and it doesn't let you see more windows at once.

Re:The interface doesn't need to be changed much (3, Interesting)

billcopc (196330) | more than 3 years ago | (#36275380)

I still don't understand why KDE and Gnome are such big deals. Maybe I'm too Windows-centric, but what I expect from the GUI is simple: a launcher/taskbar widget, configurable window management and theming, and a handful of integrated utilities or configuration panels that govern common functionality among all apps (e.g. network shares, security defaults, notification prefs, video accel).

Beyond that, the rest of KDE seems like truckloads of cruft to me. I find the bundled apps largely deficient in functionality and stability, they're like "store brand" knockoffs of specialized 3rd party apps. Rather than wasting so much effort on these bastard subprojects, why not deliver a solid API and widget library that allows 3rd parties to properly integrate with the look and feel ? Let the GUI people focus on building the GUI, and let the app people focus on apps.

KDE 3.5 was fast, lean, maybe a little hard on the eyes but it did everything I needed without getting in the way. Everything since then has been a bad acid trip through OSX envy and good-old-fashioned programmer-designed atrocity. Just look at Windows 7, they pared it down from Vista to be as simple and efficient as Microsoft can be. Less baked-in functionality, but plenty of hooks to extend it IF AND WHEN NEEDED. Isn't that supposed to be the Unix way ?

Re:The interface doesn't need to be changed much (1)

seyyah (986027) | more than 3 years ago | (#36275576)

Beyond that, the rest of KDE seems like truckloads of cruft to me. I find the bundled apps largely deficient in functionality and stability, they're like "store brand" knockoffs of specialized 3rd party apps. Rather than wasting so much effort on these bastard subprojects, why not deliver a solid API and widget library that allows 3rd parties to properly integrate with the look and feel ? Let the GUI people focus on building the GUI, and let the app people focus on apps.

I think I agree with much of what you are saying. The only counter-argument I can think of is that KDE's inclusion of 'subprojects' might not really be a distraction to the main thrust of the project. I say this because the contributors to the little programs might not be the same as those who work on the KDE core. I think that the core team has provided a fairly good API and widget library (or Qt has) and this allows all these 'little programs' to exist.

That being said, I agree that many of them are just not quite there yet. It's a pity because the goal of having fully-integrated programs (but independent!) is a good one. This is what I miss the most about using KDE.

I don't think that this criticism is a KDE 4 criticism though. If KDE 4 suffers from this problem, then so did KDE 3.

Re:The interface doesn't need to be changed much (1)

Khashishi (775369) | more than 3 years ago | (#36275694)

strangely enough, I found the Walgreens brand whitening toothpaste (which had a text blurb: Compare to Crest Whitening) to be far superior to Crest's Whitening toothpaste. go figure.

Re:The interface doesn't need to be changed much (4, Insightful)

Risen888 (306092) | more than 3 years ago | (#36275900)

I still don't understand why KDE and Gnome are such big deals. Maybe I'm too Windows-centric, but what I expect from the GUI is simple: a launcher/taskbar widget, configurable window management and theming, and a handful of integrated utilities or configuration panels that govern common functionality among all apps (e.g. network shares, security defaults, notification prefs, video accel).

You were deprived of a proper desktop as a child. You know nothing of multiple workspaces, the ability of your applications to share their data with each other, even the simplest things like changing the color of your window decorations is beyond your ken. It's like you were raised in a cage.

I find the bundled apps largely deficient in functionality and stability, they're like "store brand" knockoffs of specialized 3rd party apps.

I think you're out of your mind. Okular is the best document viewer I have ever seen. Show me a pdf reader that does a third of the things that Okular does, and does them half as well, and I will eat my hat. Kontact is absolutely gold. Even the file manager has been doing things for three years that Windows Exploder still can't even imagine doing. Marble...well, I was gonna say Marble's the best at what it does, but actually, it's the only application that I'm aware of that does what it does.

why not deliver a solid API and widget library that allows 3rd parties to properly integrate with the look and feel

Yeah, we got that. We've had it for years. Have you looked? No you haven't, have you?

KDE 3.5 was fast, lean, maybe a little hard on the eyes but it did everything I needed without getting in the way. Everything since then has been a bad acid trip through OSX envy and good-old-fashioned programmer-designed atrocity. Just look at Windows 7, they pared it down from Vista to be as simple and efficient as Microsoft can be.

"foo n-1 was the best thing ever, new is crap, Windows 7 is shiny." Okay then. Use Windows 7.

Re:The interface doesn't need to be changed much (2)

fnj (64210) | more than 3 years ago | (#36276158)

I agree almost across the board. My only issue is that I think Gwenview is a piece of crap from a UI standpoint compared to the old Kuickshow. Kuickshow was an inspired PERFECT app. You can still compile kuickshow under KDE4, and it still works perfectly. I just don't understand why they refuse to maintain it as a fully supporteds piece of KDE4.

Re:The interface doesn't need to be changed much (3, Interesting)

fnj (64210) | more than 3 years ago | (#36276134)

I don't think KDE4 is overblown except in one respect. If you could just can that imbecilic desktop and replace it with a single simple folder view like in KDE3 and Gnome2, where you can put launchers and objects, KDE4 is basically perfect. Now, I haven't been able to figure out how to rip out that crippling piece of garbage from KDE, but I am sure the KDE team could easily add a single radio button to allow the user to just enable or disable it. It's like how they let you switch the start menu to the normal, useful "classic style," instead of the godawful new style which copies one of the most HATED and DESPISED "innovations" of Vista.

In all other respects, I see no fundamental flaw with KDE4. I find it in no way mysteriously slower or more ponderous than KDE3. I am just perplexed when people claim this. Obviously, the first thing you do when you bring it up is completely turn off all the "desktop effects" horse shit, and then it works fine.

And as far as I can see KDE has some wonderful apps. Kate, for example, is a superb multi-document text editor. Gnome has nothing remotely comparable. I know of no standalone one that is better. KDE Office would be a wonder if we weren't spoiled by Open Office, so I admit I don't use much of it. Obviously, I use Firefox instead of Konqueror (usually). But I see no way in which the KDE guys have built a less than first class API for 3rd partiesa to properly integrate with. If they won't do it, and instead use the GTK horror, it's hardly KDE's fault. KDE's is vastly superior in every way.

Konsole is so many orders of magnitude better than Gnome terminal or anything else, that it is like the adults vs the kindergarten to compare them.

If you really and truly want a bare desktop with no cruft at all, you just use Xfce or LXDE. But I must warn you that they have substandard "little things." The clock cannot be adequately customized. The other applets are similarly deficient. I suppose we could port forward all the superb Gnome2 applets if we had the energy, but gosh darn it, I just want to USE a desktop that is neither INSANE nor DEFICIENT as it is.

Re:The interface doesn't need to be changed much (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36276278)

I don't think KDE4 is overblown except in one respect. If you could just can that imbecilic desktop and replace it with a single simple folder view like in KDE3 and Gnome2, where you can put launchers and objects, KDE4 is basically perfect. Now, I haven't been able to figure out how to rip out that crippling piece of garbage from KDE, but I am sure the KDE team could easily add a single radio button to allow the user to just enable or disable it.

How convenient! This already exists - right click the desktop, choose Desktop Settings, and select Layout: Folderview.

Re:The interface doesn't need to be changed much (1)

WillKemp (1338605) | more than 3 years ago | (#36276226)

I still don't understand why KDE and Gnome are such big deals

They're not - unless you're a nerd who enjoys wasting time fiddling around with pointless things for the sake of it.

Re:The interface doesn't need to be changed much (5, Insightful)

seyyah (986027) | more than 3 years ago | (#36275474)

People who use KDE are typically coming from Windows so the default should look similar.

Where does this notion come from? I've see in it before and I doubt it has any merit.

In fact, I would expect that the majority of people coming from Windows use Gnome since it is the default DE for Ubuntu and other popular distros.

Re:The interface doesn't need to be changed much (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36275670)

It comes from the crazed moronic KDE supporters who infected every story about KDE or Gnome with delusional bullshit about how much better KDE is.

Even this story is phrased in such a way that it tries to equate Gnome's recent release with KDE's hilariously incompetent 4.0 release (you know... the one that was so bad/unfinished no distro would touch it and cemented the KDE project's reputation for version number inflation and amateur coding).

Re:The interface doesn't need to be changed much (1)

goarilla (908067) | more than 3 years ago | (#36275954)

hear hear i use kde 4.4.6 at work
and even that release is still not really out of beta

but i do remember even KDE 3.5 launching the crash handler way too often

Re:The interface doesn't need to be changed much (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36276230)

Even this story is phrased in such a way that it tries to equate Gnome's recent release with KDE's hilariously incompetent 4.0 release (you know... the one that was so bad/unfinished no distro would touch it and cemented the KDE project's reputation for version number inflation and amateur coding).

I heard it the other way round. The KDE team said that 4.0 (even as far as 4.2) is to be a developer-only release and urged distros and users NOT to use it and stick with the 3.x branch. Many distros (or users) didn't listen and were massively disappointed thinking it was stable and ready to go calling the entire branch and effort crap.

Re:The interface doesn't need to be changed much (1)

drinkypoo (153816) | more than 3 years ago | (#36275680)

KDE is at least by default more windowsish and GNOME is more Macish. Unity is even MORE Macish than that...

Re:The interface doesn't need to be changed much (0)

Risen888 (306092) | more than 3 years ago | (#36275912)

KDE? Windows-ish? I can't imagine how people get that idea. They look nothing alike, they act nothing alike. I mean, other than "has a panel," what is Windows-ish about KDE?

I am not trolling you, and I welcome your reply. I have heard this over and over again, and as a KDE user of long standing, I just don't get it at all.

Re:The interface doesn't need to be changed much (1)

Loomismeister (1589505) | more than 3 years ago | (#36276234)

The taskbar at the bottom with a start menu in the same location. The kde desktop is nearly identical to the windows desktop.

Re:The interface doesn't need to be changed much (1)

Bloodwine77 (913355) | more than 3 years ago | (#36275710)

KDE is the default DE for openSUSE, which is another very popular Linux distro. It is not quite as popular as Ubuntu, but openSUSE is big. Also, how much of Ubuntu's userbase actually uses Kubuntu instead of Ubuntu?

Between the two, KDE has much more of a Windows feel and if I were t set up Linux for a family member used to Windows then I'd opt for KDE for an easier transition.

I personallyuse Xfce these days and what I love about it is that I can make it look similar to Windows or make it look similar to Gnome 2.x ... a lot of flexibility. In the Gnome vs. KDE war, I decided to leave the battlefield and enjoy the other alternatives.

Re:The interface doesn't need to be changed much (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36275730)

I don't know about anybody else, but I come from Windows (Vista) and use KDE. I can't stand Gnome.

Re:The interface doesn't need to be changed much (1)

MurukeshM (1901690) | more than 3 years ago | (#36275742)

One simple and minor point. In GNOME, You Edit your Preferences. In KDE/Windows, you go Tools menu, and then change your Options.

Re:The interface doesn't need to be changed much (1)

SomeKDEUser (1243392) | more than 3 years ago | (#36275908)

No you don't. KDE is sensible: it has a settings menu...

Re:The interface doesn't need to be changed much (1)

kiwi_fb (1119337) | more than 3 years ago | (#36275934)

Funny that, in kde I don't go in "tools" to do that. In fact not all apps have a tool entry. I go into "settings" where I have access to various confgurations/management options. Even in the K menu I go into settings to change anything about my DE.

Re:The interface doesn't need to be changed much (2)

hairyfeet (841228) | more than 3 years ago | (#36275880)

Because, and I'm sure to get hatred for pointing this out, a lot of the developers out there seem to suffer from Cargo Cult Usability [piestar.net] where they implement basic ideas without understanding the underlying structure which is why you saw a previous poster talking about "dept store knockoffs" because when you implement some of the front end without the underlying structure it feels like a badly done copy.

Take Gnome for example. they have ripped off (homage, whatever) a lot of the Mac GUI without understanding how the structure ties in which makes it 'off". For example they have the traditional Mac menu in the correct placement but their DE is windows based and Macs are application based which causes it to make no sense. Since Macs are app based all apps use the same menu at the top whereas with gnome each app typically has their own menu layout or at least did last time I tried it with Ubuntu 10.04, which makes having the top menu kinda pointless.

With KDE they seem to follow the Windows model but yet again they don't implement the features, just the look or at least that was the case last time I tried it (again with Ubuntu 10.04) because while they had a lot of the familiar layout they didn't have breadcrumbs or Readyboost or superfetch or many of the other features that makes Windows more usable.

So I think Canonical is in the right here, even if it falls flat or takes a while to get solid, in that the way to go is to forge a "Linux centric" model where you have a completely different GUI that won't make people feel "cheap knockoff" when features they are used to in Macs or windows aren't found or are different. By switching to Unity+Wayland they will have a different "look and feel" to other OSes, thus removing some of the preconceived notions people have when you use a Windows or Mac centric layout.

Re:The interface doesn't need to be changed much (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36275662)

It's 2011. The majority of the country is broadband now.

It sure is a good thing that there is only one country on the planet, too, and that the Linux community is limited to this one country.

Re:The interface doesn't need to be changed much (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36275748)

Actually, the interface needs radical changes. Not endlessly being number 2 by cloning number 1 + lag.

But nobody has the brains, let a lone the balls, to rethink things in a way that improves them. The highest they seem to go, is now cloning off of Apple instead of Windows (who themselves clone Apple), and especially listening to the loud retards on the lower end of the Gaussian distribution to make it "simpler". Instead of *more efficient*.
Which makes them end up with Gnome 3 and Unity. Or Clippy / MS Bob. (You heard it here first: Unity is the new Clippy! ;)
Removing features for a small sub-crowd of lazy asses who'd whine about it being too hard to even breathe. (Cue the fat people in Wally. ;)

If you want to see, what something radically better might look like, think about the UNIX principles, and then check out Maya (the 3D tool): everything you do is a command in the (normally hidden) CLI below. Everything can be stuck to everything, every output value to every input of the same type. Between small modules that have a unified way for you to change their parameters/properties. Creating what is essentially programs.
And in the end, you can just select the lines from the CLI, and drag them up into the shelf, making a new button/icon. (You could later then make more of it by adding dialogs, properties/parameters, etc.)
If you see Maya as an OS with a shell, then you notice that there are no big monolithic applications. There are only the interfacing modules, and views to display something.
Which, I think, is how really open software for a programmable machine would be designed. Instead of the big clumps that is "normal" applications.

How about that? Elegant, efficient, emergent. I love it. :)

Re:The interface doesn't need to be changed much (1)

Shoe Puppet (1557239) | more than 3 years ago | (#36275968)

such as intelligent agents that a user can program to automate certain tasks such as burning a DVD, searching several search engines to find certain information on certain topics, all of this could benefit from agent based AI.

I suggested this to the linux community years ago and their excuse was there wasn't enough bandwidth. It's 2011. The majority of the country is broadband now. There is enough bandwidth to build an intelligent agent into KDE and if they wont do it then I might just go ahead and do it for them.

I'm afraid I can't follow you here. I can imagine AI development being held back by lack of CPU performance, RAM or simply the fact that this kind of thing is extremely hard to make, but... bandwith? What does an AI even need a lot of bandwith for?

Re:The interface doesn't need to be changed much (1)

WillKemp (1338605) | more than 3 years ago | (#36276146)

Gnome and Ubuntu Unity have removed the linux edge of customizability.

I've been customizing linux desktops for over 15 years now, and i'm sick of it!

Back in the mid-90s, you had no choice but to customize almost everything in a linux system, as the defaults were skeletal. But, gradually, over the years, more and more usable defaults were built in to distros - which has been a very good thing.

With virtually nothing i can waste hours customizing now, i can just adapt to what's there and spend that time doing productive work (or, more likely, unproductive procrastination, like this!).

Get used to it. It's the way it's been going forever!

More on multi-agent based AI (3, Interesting)

elucido (870205) | more than 3 years ago | (#36275316)

So I mentioned this in my previous post and I recognize some people don't know why or don't understand why this would be useful. So I'll give some examples of what agent based AI can do for those who don't know and how it could be implemented.

To implement multi-agent based AI on linux first there would need to be a backend or a framework of some sort that would allow scripting languages such as python, ruby, and perl to connect to it. The framework or backend would have to be written in C for certain intense data processing tasks. The front end should allow programmers of all sort to write their own scripts in their favorite scripting languages to create robots. These robots should have the ability to automate system processes.

For example I decide I need to do research on artificial intelligence because I don't know what it is, so I should be able to tell the robot to search Google, to find X amount of articles on artificial intelligence which meet certain criteria. This could be done using regular expressions. But of course this isn't all that I need to do. I have a to-do list for this specific robot related to the topic of AI, to download certain files from the net and install them, to then load up and use certain files to process certain data. All of this should be automated completely and should happen in the backround and it all should be related to the topic of AI.

The news robot on the other hand I would program to act as an RSS feed, this robot would look not just at specific websites such as slashdot, but for specific articles on slashdot and present those articles along with research on certain keywords or buzzwords it thinks or suspects I know little about or wont understand.

The log analyzer robot could analyze logs for me and highlight any potential redflags, and then if it finds them run through an automated process that I determine is best for dealing with these redflags.

Each robot would be assigned to a task. Each robot should have the ability to do what the user could do, and it should be simple to show the robot or program the robot into doing it a number of very highly complex tasks.

The problem with using computers is most of the stuff we do each day is just routine. Most of us fit into certain patterns. Robots would allow us to save time, we can leave the computer on all day or all night and it will do a number of boring clicks and boring tasks that take up a great deal of time. This saves time and increases productivity.

Re:More on multi-agent based AI (1)

Kjella (173770) | more than 3 years ago | (#36275578)

multi-agent based AI

It's an army of Clippys

it should be simple to show the robot or program the robot into doing it a number of very highly complex tasks

Yeah... how many decades have we dreamed about the Star Trek computer or Lt. Cmdr. Data by now? Computers aren't ever going to figure out what you're trying to do and make all the complex decisions themselves. The fact of the matter is that to make it to complex things you have to write complex scripts. And try as people may, we still haven't found anything better than the current programming languages, which most people can't grok. Every attempt to "humanize" it has failed because it lacks the precision to be interpreted by a computer and the computer will never realize it's doing nonsense work.

For example I decide I need to do research on artificial intelligence because I don't know what it is, so I should be able to tell the robot to search Google, to find X amount of articles on artificial intelligence which meet certain criteria.

Just to take one example, how's your agent going to know this link, unlike all the other links, is fetching the next results? Somebody has to program that logic into it, you can't just say give me the top 100 links. And what tells sponsored links from actual search results, assuming you just want the search results? Again, more logic. What should it do if a link is unavailable, should it just take the next results, try again, try later, panic and error out? All of those COULD be reasonable choices under some circumstances. Where should it store it? Should it keep historical data, or clear it out each time? Does it need to keep a history so it doesn't download the same article twice? What about the same article on two different URLs, do we need fuzzy matching? Do you need just the article, and if so do you get it without all the navigation, header, footer and other text since it's just one HTML page? By the time I've narrowed down exactly what it is your agent to do, the "agent" is really a complex script that wasn't really all that valuable to automate anyway. Or you could have it try guessing, but then we're back to an army of Clippys again.

Re:More on multi-agent based AI (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36275582)

Multi-agent AIs are a hobbyist/research endeavor and does not have appeal for the masses (and some would argue) is not proper to be included with an OS. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one.

You can use Silk Test, Sikuli, or expect scripts for common tasks, and if you are research inclined then perhaps you should still keep up with the research. There is a fine line between clever and lazy, and people have various degrees of both. If you want to build this, by all means go for it, but don't be surprised if it doesn't become standard.

steady as she goes (1)

Osgeld (1900440) | more than 3 years ago | (#36275328)

is gnome 2 or kde 3, none of the new offerings can even provide you with a working desktop

Re:steady as she goes (1)

lennier1 (264730) | more than 3 years ago | (#36275462)

At least KDE doesn't force you to use some damn tablet mode if you don't want to.

And that's coming from someone who has preferred Gnome over KDE since the days Gnome became mature enough to be an alternate option.

Re:steady as she goes (1)

Osgeld (1900440) | more than 3 years ago | (#36275646)

no it just forced me to spend a shit ton of time searching through forum threads to figure out how to set the durn thing up where I could drag a icon from a window on to the desktop

~brilliant~

Re:steady as she goes (1)

SomeKDEUser (1243392) | more than 3 years ago | (#36275956)

As opposed to this part of the desktop conveniently labelled with the path it links to? See, some of us like to be able to drag stuff to where we want the files to be (no, not the _stupid_ "Download folder"). And some of these locations might be remote! You might be living in the nineties, but some of us have this amazing thing called Internet (not, "the web") and we use it.

Re:steady as she goes (1)

Osgeld (1900440) | more than 3 years ago | (#36276254)

I dont know what your deal is, if you looked at the original comment instead of instantly going KDE Fanboi to the rescue you would notice I said gnome 2 and kde3 are fine

And I find it really fucking silly that I have to read a god damned tech doc to be able to drag an icon from the fucking start menu to the desktop, maybe I am living in the 90's, why in the hell would I want a shortcut some place convenient without making it a obnoxious widget or spending time engineering my workspace with a fucking interior designer?

Re:steady as she goes (0)

Risen888 (306092) | more than 3 years ago | (#36275926)

You're dumb.

Re:steady as she goes (1)

Osgeld (1900440) | more than 3 years ago | (#36276264)

Care to explain or do you have an issue where you randomly insult someone without the tiniest amount of thought?

Re:steady as she goes (1)

fnj (64210) | more than 3 years ago | (#36276180)

This is the most insightful of all the comments here and I would mod you +100 if I could. The KDE4 desktop that is not a desktop was a WTF moment from the instant I first saw it. And it is the ONLY thing wrong with KDE4. If only they would just let you TURN IT THE FUCK OFF.

Re:steady as she goes (1)

WillKemp (1338605) | more than 3 years ago | (#36276262)

none of the new offerings can even provide you with a working desktop

Gnome 3 provides me with a desktop that works just as well as any other desktop i've used on linux systems over the last 15 years. It took a day or two to get used to it, but maybe i'm more adaptable than some.

Improve GUI (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36275404)

While I love new features, the KDE devs should spend more time on polish. The photo [kde.org] featured in TFA makes a good case. The buttons (at the windows bottom) clearly lack the necessary paddings.

Re:Improve GUI (1)

betterunixthanunix (980855) | more than 3 years ago | (#36275832)

the KDE devs should spend more time on polish

That has been the KDE4 story since the very first release. The KDE team shot themselves in the foot by focusing too much on new features and not enough on fixing bugs and making old features better.

Re:Improve GUI (1)

SomeKDEUser (1243392) | more than 3 years ago | (#36275970)

But if they did add the padding, some other guy _will_ squeal like a pig that the EVIL KDE DEVELOPERS are stealing his precious pixels... They can't win.

two weeks without KDE... and not missing it (3, Interesting)

C0vardeAn0nim0 (232451) | more than 3 years ago | (#36275406)

before someone mods me '-1 flamebait', let say a few things:

1- NOT a gnome fanboy. i dislike gnome in all it's incarnations, always did.
2- i use windowmaker. always have, always will
3- i only had parts of KDE installed to use some of it's applications from inside wmaker (mostly K3B, koppete, ktorrent and dolphin)

now, in the last two weeks i apt-get purged all things KDE4 from my system (kept only pana, a fork of amarok 1.4). the reason is that newer versions of KDE were starting to interfere with my way of doing things. what tipped the scale was keyboard configuration.

you see, i don't use graphical login managers, i log from good old fashion console, then type "startx" by hand. i consider this a must, since i use debian unstable, so breakeage of x.org because of updated kernel, ati drivers, etc sometimes happens. this means i have keyboard with swapped ctrl and caps lock, as well as locale (pt_BR) configured on the console. with wmaker i don't even need a keyboard section on xorg.conf, it just goes with what's configured on the console. that is, until you fire up a KDE app and it loads all those libraries. other thing that i had configured manually was CPU frequency management, so i don't run the risk of overheating the notebook when doing something CPU intensive on the console. i use userspace governor with kpowernowd and it works just fine.

keyboard becomes all messed up, KDE insisted in changing the frequency governor to wathever it damn well pleased, not to mention taht the load time for all those libraries was atrocious, i had to wait some 20 to 30 seconds until kopete, bluetooth applet and power applet loaded.

after i ditched everything, now i'm using XFE as file manager, pidgin for IM, gnome's bluetooth applet, xfburn and qbittorrent (a qt app. it doesn't load all the KDE libs like ktorrent). the result is faster load times for the GUI, less anoyance and no loss of functionality.

if the KDE guys make their environment behave better when a KDE app is loaded from some other window manager, maybe i'll give it another shot. until there, it'll stay out of my computer. i have better things to do with my time than fight against misbehaved apps that try to wrestle control of my system out of me.

Re:two weeks without KDE... and not missing it (1)

jd (1658) | more than 3 years ago | (#36275598)

I use WindowMaker, Enlightenment, AfterSTEP, FVWM2, OpenLook, KDE, Gnome and the one that's an Archimedes GUI ripoff. Not usually at the same time, though that's happened, but whichever one happens to fit my mood and/or fits with whatever I'm doing better. I can't understand those who live in a single GUI. It's like trying to live in a single country.

Re:two weeks without KDE... and not missing it (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36275848)

It's like trying to live in a single country.

Nice choice of analogy, proves your point very well ;)

Re:two weeks without KDE... and not missing it (1)

pjt33 (739471) | more than 3 years ago | (#36275944)

It's like trying to live in a single country.

It saves you from having to hire an expert because you need detailed advice on matters such as double-taxation treaties?

Re:two weeks without KDE... and not missing it (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36275696)

Posts like this are the reason people don't want to use Linux.
Too much work.

Re:two weeks without KDE... and not missing it (1)

SomeKDEUser (1243392) | more than 3 years ago | (#36276046)

On the other hand, the guy is really trying hard to make his life miserable...

Re:two weeks without KDE... and not missing it (1)

WillKemp (1338605) | more than 3 years ago | (#36276280)

Posts like this are the reason people don't want to use Linux.

People do want to use linux - lots of them.

Re:two weeks without KDE... and not missing it (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36275750)

i use windowmaker. always have, always will

you see, i don't use graphical login managers, i log from good old fashion console, then type "startx" by hand.

since i use debian unstable

Well, you are probably not the target audience for KDE. I appreciate all the effort you put in on debian unstable (hopefully you're sending feedback so future releases become rock solid!), but quite frankly, the KDE guys don't have you in mind when they develop. I'm not surprised KDE flipped out on you, if debian unstable is requiring you to mess with x and drivers at every boot, poor KDE probably doesn't have solid ground to stand on, of course its going to behave funky.

I don't mean to this to become a anecdote battle, but I can say it works just fine for me. OpenSUSE 11.4 personally, but I have a few distros floating around under my control (at the office, etc.) People at my university run linux machines in the labs and tutoring centers and all, and some students will ocassionally ask "What is this computer running?". "Kubuntu/OpenSUSE/Linux". "Oh, cool. I like it. I've heard of it but never used it before." They must be doing something right! And some of KDE's tools I find fantastic, to the point where I miss them when I'm running Ubuntu or, even worse, back on a windows box. I work in math and honestly I've begun to enjoy pulling up things like Kmplot to just pump out a graph quick, for example. I like the interface, and every release I feel like KDE grows more polished and user friendly. Some things Windows 7 does drives me nuts (I absolutely can't stand how the "Downloads" folder is not a Library like the rest of the folders and so anytime I want to attach a download to an email I have to hunt through my user directory to get to it, for example). Probably no one is ever going to like a single DE 100% for everything it does, there's always points where we think it can improve because we all have different workflows and ideas. And KDE does pretty well on memory I find. More than we're used to, but hey, I still remember my first computer as a kid and so 1 GB of RAM still sounds like a lot to me; but when computers from Dell come standard with at least 2 GB, many times 4 GB, we have to keep perspective and realize, in the scheme of things, it's not that big a deal, partially because our desktops and software do more than they did before. It's PERFECTLY OK that it uses more memory than it used to. I personally find my laptop runs cooler with linux than it did with windows. I didn't change any hardware or anything, just wiped out windows and replaced it. Bam, snappier interface AND it runs cooler. Linux has really come a long way, and KDE especially I really enjoy using.

I just had to throw in my 2 cents because I get a little tired of all the "GNOME/KDE/whatever sucks!" and the justification is some obscure use case.

Re:two weeks without KDE... and not missing it (2)

Linzer (753270) | more than 3 years ago | (#36275930)

if the KDE guys make their environment behave better when a KDE app is loaded from some other window manager, maybe i'll give it another shot.

Now, this is a problem right there. If you load a KDE app in a different window manager, then it isn't "their environment" anymore. Making KDE apps behave nicely in other environments is definitely not KDE people's priority. The same goes for GNOME, to be honest: I've had some unpleasant time trying to setup applications with GConf while not using GNOME.

While I am can totally understand your case and sympathize with it, I think you're right that KDE is not for you. It's meant to be much more exclusive. It's designed for KDE users, if you will (no irony intended).

Re:two weeks without KDE... and not missing it (1)

goarilla (908067) | more than 3 years ago | (#36276032)

hear hear
but i had a lot of the same issues with KDE 3.x
and it's a shame since ktorrent, k3b and konqueror in my opinion are awesome apps
as was amarok

Re:two weeks without KDE... and not missing it (1)

SomeKDEUser (1243392) | more than 3 years ago | (#36276040)

- You should not set the frequency manually. This is the job of the OS/the hardware. And they know best.
  - KDE respects the locale unless you have specifically told it not to (as in, configured alternate keyboards)
  - Login managers do not prevent you from logging on the console: if there is a lockup, reboot and specify the runlevel at the grub/lilo prompt
  - The first KDE app will take 20s to start, because it needs to start the configuration cache and the system bus. These apps benefit from integration, but this incurs a cost when run standalone

But yeah, I mean, you are running windowmaker, so why run KDE apps? These apps are great because they are integrated and work well together, in their environment. Of course, there is nothing like Amarok (2, yes, I'm a fan) or K3B or kate, or quite like kontact outside of KDE. But these apps are great because of the integration and the shared features!

Re:two weeks without KDE... and not missing it (1)

walshy007 (906710) | more than 3 years ago | (#36276210)

Of course, there is nothing like Amarok (2, yes, I'm a fan)

For media playback, I recommend you try mpd, of course that is just the daemon, there are many front-ends for it and I imagine a qt one (I use ncurses one and the firefox plugin when people are over)

Amarok doesn't play well with jack, which is what all the cool kids that want serious low latency audio use for that audio subsystems many neat features.

Where are the GUI designers going to realise... (0)

Viol8 (599362) | more than 3 years ago | (#36275414)

... that they programs are just a shell , an interface to the applications that do the actual work. It doesn't matter how many times they rearrange the spaces in the car park , its the cars that are important. I just want a GUI to allow me to manage applications. End of. I don't need some all singing and dancing bloatware that sucks cycles from the CPU because it gives the devs - who couldn't quite make the grade as games or graphics package developers - a hard on to come up with silly animations and other BS that no one needs. This applies to KDE, Gnome, Windows and OS/X. And for that reason I don't use any of them. twm works for fine me.

Re:Where are the GUI designers going to realise... (2)

Microlith (54737) | more than 3 years ago | (#36275466)

Good, stick with your mid-90s and earlier window manager. The rest of us will enjoy the capabilities afforded us by our hardware.

Re:Where are the GUI designers going to realise... (1)

cb88 (1410145) | more than 3 years ago | (#36275570)

twm is mid 80's and that was a blatant troll ... lol seriously nobody uses twm.... on the other had FVWM2 isn't half bad and is highly customizable on top of using less memory than twm.

Re:Where are the GUI designers going to realise... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36275478)

Wow, you are so l337, your parents must be so proud! Seriously, what's the point of coming here and posting something like this?

Re:Where are the GUI designers going to realise... (1)

C0vardeAn0nim0 (232451) | more than 3 years ago | (#36275510)

bring a different, but no less valid point of view to the discussion ?

i'm still on windowmaker, another mid-90s WM. it's clean, fast, practical and allows me to do some tricks at work that makes me much more productive than the guys who use gnome/unity/kde.

Re:Where are the GUI designers going to realise... (1)

MrHanky (141717) | more than 3 years ago | (#36275618)

Actually, it's a less valid point of view. He just doesn't get it. He doesn't get what a GUI is, what an application is, what a desktop environment is.

Windowmaker is fine, but it doesn't make you more productive than others who are as proficient with their preferred desktop. You're just arrogant and stupid, like the GGP.

Re:Where are the GUI designers going to realise... (1)

WillKemp (1338605) | more than 3 years ago | (#36276296)

i'm still on windowmaker, another mid-90s WM. it's clean, fast, practical and allows me to do some tricks at work that makes me much more productive than the guys who use gnome/unity/kde.

I hope they pay you more for that!

Re:Where are the GUI designers going to realise... (1)

gilesjuk (604902) | more than 3 years ago | (#36275520)

You can manage applications from the command line. Why do you even need a GUI? :)

Re:Where are the GUI designers going to realise... (1)

jd (1658) | more than 3 years ago | (#36275658)

GUIs are overhead in a lot of areas. Graphics can be done via framebuffers, for example, and if you're simply wanting to flip through a photo album you're far better off doing it that way than to have the overheads of X in there. On the other hand, I'd hate to do video editing in a console app.

It's like arguing whether axes are better than arrows. Even with a 170 lb. longbow, it'll take time to cut down a tree, but an archer will still beat an axe-wielding maniac.

Re:Where are the GUI designers going to realise... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36275988)

Even with a 170 lb. longbow, it'll take time to cut down a tree, but an archer will still beat an axe-wielding maniac.

Only if he keeps his cool and doesn't miss.

Re:Where are the GUI designers going to realise... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36275782)

I would agree with that, but when my X broke a few weeks ago, I realized why I need a gui. I can do almost everything from cli- even browse the web with lynx (one of my favorite browsers :) - but I have to write and submit papers. Turns out there's not much you can do with LO from the cli.

Re:Where are the GUI designers going to realise... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36276104)

use latex

Re:Where are the GUI designers going to realise... (1)

WillKemp (1338605) | more than 3 years ago | (#36276290)

twm works for fine me.

What's wrong with bash?

What's the deal with KDE, Qt, and Nokia (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36275442)

... especially for closed source (shrink wrap) application development, e.g. games. I understand that there are few if any issues for developers of "free software", but some may have a different business model/monetization plan.

Is Android a next gen KDE competitor? (1)

G3ckoG33k (647276) | more than 3 years ago | (#36275512)

Is Android a next gen KDE competitor? Android is after all essentially a desktop environment, but also a layer isolating the Linux kernel. Despite being a childishly avid KDE-fanboy I imagine that neither KDE or Gnome will "make it", get total dominance on the Linux desktop. Therefore, what are the chances that Qt, controlled by a "Microsoft controlled" Nokia, could be considered a risk by Google ... Hmmm... Ramblings, as I could not not fit the pieces together, and I'm getting very offtopic... Help me out! Still, the Android factor is probably too important to forget here, even for the pc.

Re:Is Android a next gen KDE competitor? (1)

SwedishPenguin (1035756) | more than 3 years ago | (#36275626)

Android throws away too much of the GNU userspace and replaces it with Java/Dalvik-based userspace to be of any use to a desktop Linux distribution. If any migration of desktop environments from the mobile space is to happen, my bet would be on MeeGo, they build on top of GNU userspace and allow anything X or terminal-based to still run.

Re:Is Android a next gen KDE competitor? (1)

the linux geek (799780) | more than 3 years ago | (#36275644)

Nokia sold Qt, and you have no real logical thread that I can detect.

Re:Is Android a next gen KDE competitor? (1)

the linux geek (799780) | more than 3 years ago | (#36275660)

Note that I'm aware that they did not literally sell Qt itself, just the commercial Qt business unit. I think at this point Nokia just doesn't give much of a fuck about it.

Re:Is Android a next gen KDE competitor? (1)

jd (1658) | more than 3 years ago | (#36275690)

No more so than Sugar is. One of the great things about heterogeneous environments is that you tend to see specialization and optimization rather than outright competition (which just drains resources from everyone). Everyone gets a perfect whatever-they-want rather than half-baked one-size-fits-all solutions (which, by trying to compete with everyone, will always lose against everyone).

Giving KDE a new chance. (3, Insightful)

Balinares (316703) | more than 3 years ago | (#36275564)

Maybe it's time to be cautiously optimistic again.

When Unity came out, I gave it its 21 days[*]. After that time, I was still not very happy with it, so I figured that after using Gnome 2 for a while, it was time to give KDE another chance.

Well, I'm glad I did. There are still little niggles here and there if you look up close, but as a whole, things work pretty darn well. They've finally managed to return to that KDE sort of state from the 3.5 days, where multitudes of little features activate as needed to support your workflow and otherwise stay the fuck out of the way. Klipper is still so freaking convenient that I miss it sorely wherever I don't have it (the Gnome equivalent, Glipper, unfortunately didn't work very well for me). Also, Chromium now natively supports the KDE password storage thing. Quassel is like a smoother X-Chat with less bugs.

All in all I've been somewhat pleasantly surprised, and I think I may keep it after its 21 days. There are still things that annoy me -- their overthought Akonadi thing, for instance; seriously, guys, I shouldn't need an RDBMS to freaking read mails -- but much fewer so than I feared. Maybe it's time to be hopeful again for that Linux desktop thing we've been hearing about.

[*] When trying out a new tech, you've got to give it at least three weeks of real use, it is said; otherwise you can't necessarily tell if it sucks or if it's just different from what you're used to, and thus, uncomfortable at first.

Re:Giving KDE a new chance. (3, Interesting)

sarhjinian (94086) | more than 3 years ago | (#36275638)

I'd agree. Interestingly, I'm finding this with GNOME 3: it's surviving the "three week" test pretty well so far. I think it's the "interface gets the hell out of the way" factor, too: you end up working with apps and documents, not fussing with settings.**

The problem, if you can call it that, is that the distro of choice for GNOME3 (Fedora 15) makes it a little hard to get going out of the box. It's not by any means insurmountable, but it's a little harder than it should be as some things are missing entirely (an Office suite really ought to come preinstalled) and playing "find the repo/RPM" is a lot harder than "It's probably already there, and if not it's trivial to find a PPA" of Ubuntu.

I'm interested to see what, if anything, the Linux Mint folks will make of GNOME 3, and it's unfortunate that Ubuntu isn't going this route. It really is a good DE, and it would benefit from Canonical's (former, traditional) user interface polish.

** I find myself fussing with settings a lot in KDE, and more often than I'd like in Ubuntu 11.04.

Re:Giving KDE a new chance. (1)

rasmusbr (2186518) | more than 3 years ago | (#36275894)

Yeah, I hear you. I wish there was a way to get Gnome 3 in Ubuntu or an app store in Fedora.

I guess what I'm saying is I wish Canonical would have released Ubuntu with a customized version of Gnome 3 instead of inventing what feels like a preschool version of Gnome 3. Maybe they'll turn Unity into something palatable in 11.11, but as it is now it's way too buggy and it's not configurable enough.

Re:Giving KDE a new chance. (1)

Bambi Dee (611786) | more than 3 years ago | (#36276048)

I believe Ubuntu 11.10 will be based on Gnome 3, just with Unity again instead of Gnome Shell. From what I've heard, Gnome Shell will nonetheless be available in the repositories. And you can quite easily try Gnome 3 and Gnome Shell now as they're available through this or that PPA. (I'm a nigh-fulltime KDE user, and my experience with Gnome Shell was brief, but I certainly preferred it to Unity... which I found quite bewildering.)

Re:Giving KDE a new chance. (1)

DMFNR (1986182) | more than 3 years ago | (#36276300)

I found Gnome Shell in the repos for Ubuntu 10.04 so I'm pretty sure you'll be able to find it for whatever version you're running. You probably will have to enable Unsupported Updates or something in Software Sources but it's there surprisingly. It was fun to mess around with for awhile and see what all the fuss was about, but I think I'll wait until I have time to upgrade to an actual distro that supports Gnome 3 out of the box hoping it's configured a little bit better. I really doubt there's a ton of effort being put in to making sure Gnome Shell runs well on 10.04.

Re:Giving KDE a new chance. (1)

SomeKDEUser (1243392) | more than 3 years ago | (#36276100)

About akonadi: when 4.7 comes out, if you are using kmail/kontact you will be happy: it is really faster than the current non-akonadi-using mailer. If only for IMAP PUSH it would be worth it.

And the integration with nepomuk, I am pleased to say, works! full-text search in attachments is cool. Having the link to the right mail pop-up when doing alt-f2 "some relevant text" is awesome.

Ubuntu-compatible KDE distro (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36275724)

Here is an alternative to Kubuntu:

http://www.netrunner-os.com

It features a nicely configured KDE4.6.1, with Gnome apps mixed in.
I found it to be simple and with just the right apps when switching from windows to linux.

Kde 4 is so last decade (2)

Billly Gates (198444) | more than 3 years ago | (#36275808)

I want a new cell phone interface. One where key functionalty is removed and only one app can be shown at a time with strange mouse gestures that take up the whole screen to shuffle between apps with no buttons focused on single tasking.

Re:Kde 4 is so last decade (1)

Bambi Dee (611786) | more than 3 years ago | (#36275964)

No problem! Try the Plasma Netbook interface!

KDE is fast on OpenSuSE, but slow on Ubuntu (1)

PythonM (2184020) | more than 3 years ago | (#36276118)

Why KDE on OpenSuSE is so much quicker than on Ubuntu?
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