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Nokia Issues Profit Warning

Unknown Lamer posted more than 2 years ago | from the our-new-strategy-is-failure dept.

Cellphones 158

jones_supa submitted an article in the Guardian. From the article "Shares in the Finnish phone maker Nokia plunged by 15% on Tuesday as the company warned that it may make no profit on phone sales in the quarter to the end of June, and that overall phone sales will be 'substantially below' its earlier forecast of €6.1bn to €6.6bn. Carolina Milanesi, mobile phones analyst for the research company Gartner, said Tuesday's warnings could mark the low point for Nokia, which has not made a loss in its handset division for more than a decade."

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SEE ALSO: (2)

Jeremiah Cornelius (137) | more than 2 years ago | (#36302448)

Free Software Faces a Test With Qt [slashdot.org]

Ka-poof!

Re:SEE ALSO: (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36302650)

I have full faith that KDE, Opera, or somebody will continue Qt but it probably won't have the quality and diversity that it does now.

Sad because QtCreator is the closest open-source IDE comparable to Visual Studio. I use it whenever I'm not using vi on UNIX'y systems (I still use Visual Studio on Windows though).

Re:SEE ALSO: (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36302884)

have you tried eclipse with windowbuilder? Blows vs and qtcreator away.

Re:SEE ALSO: (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36302894)

I doubt Opera will do anything, as they ditched Qt a few versions ago in their browser.

Re:SEE ALSO: (1)

RobbieThe1st (1977364) | more than 3 years ago | (#36304162)

*sigh*.
It's not like anythings going to /go away/... At /worst/ new features might not be added, but the stuff you know and love will still be around, probably for decades.

And more than likely it will continue as before, as there are plenty of commercial backerd who still need/want it.

Re:SEE ALSO: (2)

pandrijeczko (588093) | more than 2 years ago | (#36302970)

There's a written agreement that some KDE foundation somewhere can take over the ownership of Qt if development stops from Nokia. It is not an issue.

And for the record, I don't like KDE much anyway, I'm a Gnome bloke through-and-through, but the truth is the truth.

Re:SEE ALSO: (1)

davester666 (731373) | more than 3 years ago | (#36304954)

Great. So now some intern in a basement at Nokia is now in charge of development.

Re:SEE ALSO: (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36304070)

Yeah right! Quoting another idiot as proof that Qt is "Ka-poof" gives your argument such unquestionable credibility, it is beyond reproach. It is too bad the proof says otherwise. How about checking out how "dead" and "deprecated" Qt is before first posting a link to a complete rubbish ??

Re:SEE ALSO: (2)

scorp1us (235526) | more than 3 years ago | (#36304456)

The author of your linked-to article is a moron. Qt is by far approaching it s best and most useful stage yet. Elop chose poorly, but lets face it, the board put him in to make the decision that he did. Meego was not as refind as iOS or Android, but wther is WP7. But you know, you get $10B for sucking from the MS teet, kinda makes it a no-brainer.

Still, Qt and Meego advance. I was bummed by the Nokia announcement, but really, the coolest stuff ever in Qt has happened in the last couple months.

I think Nokia will fill the contractual obligations to get the $10B and then go back to Qt/Meego.

Kicking themselves yet? (0, Redundant)

guspasho (941623) | more than 2 years ago | (#36302452)

I bet that now they wish they never made that deal with The Devil Microsoft.

Re:Kicking themselves yet? (1)

Megor1 (621918) | more than 2 years ago | (#36302478)

Well since they arent using anything from MS yet it would seem what they were doing before wasn't very profitable.

Re:Kicking themselves yet? (3, Insightful)

Citizen of Earth (569446) | more than 2 years ago | (#36302570)

When they finally do, they'll be discovering that the other big manufacturers have Windows phones, too. I'll bet that'll be a big shock to them.

Re:Kicking themselves yet? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36302796)

Assuming things is risky. Here you're assuming that they actually will ship a phone someday. Given the history of these relationships that's not exactly a safe bet.

Re:Kicking themselves yet? (4, Interesting)

Barbara, not Barbie (721478) | more than 2 years ago | (#36302578)

When Nokia made their deal with Microsoft, they basically told the world "Don't buy any of our current phones because we're orphaning them."

Remember, they said that they would be switching ALL their phones to WP7. Would you lock yourself into a long-term contract for an orphan phone?

Microsoft wasn't stupid - they could foresee that Nokia share value would collapse - by next year, they'll be able to buy Nokia outright for a lot less than the money they gave them.

"Coming soon - The Microsoft X-Phone - it works great with your X-Box!"

Re:Kicking themselves yet? (1)

tukang (1209392) | more than 3 years ago | (#36303498)

I know it's fashionable to blame Microsoft around here but I seriously doubt that Nokia's sales have suffered because of their deal with Microsoft. Most of their customers probably don't even know about the deal with Microsoft. I think it's far more likely that their sales are suffering because their current phones simply aren't appealing to consumers, and that's probably the reason they decided to "orphan" their current phones. In other words, sales aren't bad because they orphaned their phones, it's the other way around.

Re:Kicking themselves yet? (3, Interesting)

Xacid (560407) | more than 3 years ago | (#36303644)

I'm probably not the standard consumer - but it's definitely going to be a factor for why I wont be touching Nokia. And I've stuck with them since I first had a cell phone. I really, really like their hardware - they take most of the abuse I can throw at it. I currently have an e71x which is overall a fairly decent phone, but it's getting dated compared to the options available today.

The degree of my loyalty to their product is noted by the fact I'd almost seriously consider trying out the latest Win Mobile platform in order to retain the Nokia hardware - however, my contract renews in two months. Do I just snag whatever Nokia is offering now or do I wait some undisclosed time until their hardware has Win Mobile on it? Probably not. Most likely I'll just get some android variant and then maybe reconsider in 2 more years.

Re:Kicking themselves yet? (1)

The Dawn Of Time (2115350) | more than 3 years ago | (#36304054)

I guarantee Microsoft haters are a vanishingly small percentage of the overall market. There's just not that level of animosity outside of nerd circles, and even then, it's greatly diminished from the days of yore.

Re:Kicking themselves yet? (1)

Xacid (560407) | more than 3 years ago | (#36304424)

Agreed. I actually enjoy a lot of MS's products. I feel like an endangered species existing on slashdot sometimes. It's really just the period of an obvious transition that's going to be fairly painful for the company. The question is - will they pull out of it and still be relevant?

Re:Kicking themselves yet? (1)

jo42 (227475) | more than 3 years ago | (#36303972)

I seriously doubt that Nokia's sales have suffered because of their deal with Microsoft

I'd blame the 'roid platform and the iThing. Not to mention utterly incompetent upper management at Nokia.

Re:Kicking themselves yet? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36304312)

Would you lock yourself into a long-term contract for an orphan phone?

95 percent of carrier branded android phones are "orphan phones". So, yes?

Re:Kicking themselves yet? (0)

elPetak (2016752) | more than 3 years ago | (#36304488)

Android sucks, it's just that people hadn't realised it yet.

Re:Kicking themselves yet? (4, Interesting)

synthesizerpatel (1210598) | more than 2 years ago | (#36302600)

It seems more likely to me that the decision to partner with Microsoft was because they knew they wouldn't be making a profit and something had to change.

I think the real reason they're not making a profit is their phones are so dreadfully out of date with what people want now that they aren't selling as well. Nokia's had a branding and model issue for quite some time - go to nokia.com and see how many different phones you can find. Different colors, shapes, too many options. Too many OSs, no clear dev schemes for third parties.

Compare that against apple's previous 'We have one phone that comes in black' and current 'We have one phone that comes in black or white'.

First and foremost, Nokia is losing money because of Nokia.

Secondly Apple / Android is why Nokia is losing money.

Thirdly, Microsoft is why Nokia will continue to lose money.

Re:Kicking themselves yet? (1)

IorDMUX (870522) | more than 2 years ago | (#36303116)

Thirdly, Microsoft is why Nokia will continue to lose money.

Which makes me (and others in my field) wonder... When is Microsoft planning on scooping up Nokia?

Re:Kicking themselves yet? (1)

Dracos (107777) | more than 3 years ago | (#36303298)

Between two and six quarters from now. They'll let Nokia mostly bleed out before the "I don't want to go on the cart" scene happens.

Re:Kicking themselves yet? (1)

sunspot42 (455706) | more than 3 years ago | (#36305468)

And then Apple will swoop in and buy them up right under Microsoft's nose.

Re:Kicking themselves yet? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36303560)

Nokia's had a branding and model issue for quite some time - go to nokia.com and see how many different phones you can find. Different colors, shapes, too many options. Too many OSs, no clear dev schemes for third parties.

Choice doesn't prevent sales, as a whole, there are tons of companies selling tons of phones giving the customers many choices and overall, phones still sell very well. There are tons of Android phones from many different companies and carriers and they are selling STRONG. Other than Apple diehards, not many people start their phone search with a specific manufacturer and then look at only their models.
Nokia would not let go of Meego and Symbian and they are not popular or competitive compared to IOS and Android. Same thing with Blackberry, Palm and Windows phones.

Re:Kicking themselves yet? (4, Insightful)

Kjella (173770) | more than 2 years ago | (#36302622)

No, this is why they signed a deal with the devil. Everybody has been taking a crack at Nokia lately and they haven't been able to deal a single decent blow in return, iPhone and Android have been eating the aging Symbian for lunch and the Maemo/Meego replacements haven't been ready. They could of course become the latecomer to Android, but so many companies now make good Android phones they'd be sure to disappoint. So they went to bed with Microsoft, the market already then realized it was a mark of desperation sinking their stock price. Now we learn it's actually worse. I figure the layoffs are about to begin and who do you think that will be, the Microsoft Phone developers or the Qt developers?

Good lord, it isn't about Symbian at all. (4, Interesting)

Colin Smith (2679) | more than 3 years ago | (#36304886)

Declare the maximum number of devices = 6 and maximum number of platforms = 2. 1 smartphone, 1 basic.

That solves 99% of the problems which Nokia have created for themselves.

Whether their smartphone platform was Symbian or Meego wouldn't have mattered, the R&D organisation would have been able to concentrate on actually making it good.

Their problem was not Symbian. Their problem was and still is 150 (yes really) different phone models. Elop hasn't actually fixed the problem.

Now like all Windows OEMs, they're a box shifter, so they need to get into a box shifter mindset. R&D will have to go entirely, there is no place for it in a low margin box shifting business.

Who's "they" (2)

ron_ivi (607351) | more than 2 years ago | (#36302638)

The CEO? Surely not! I bet he's very confident he'll get his old Microsoft job back plus bonuses in much the same way that Rick Belluzzo was given a President+COO job at Microsoft to thank him for killing PA-RISC and HPUX in favor of NT-on-Itanium (when we was EVP at HP) and killing IRIX and MIPS in favor of NT-on-Itanium when he was CEO of SGI.

The other shareholders? Sure, they got screwed; but they were probably so enamored with how awesome it was to be a microsoft partner that they never noticed.

The employees? They've been wishing that all along.

Re:Kicking themselves yet? (3, Interesting)

pandrijeczko (588093) | more than 2 years ago | (#36302816)

They actually had no choice in the matter.

They had sat on their backsides and done nothing for years, and when they finally realised it, the one realistic option of forgetting about their own in-house phone OS and going with Android (like Motorola did) was something they refused to do because the Nokia name would have been absorbed into the Android eco-structure with a dilution of their brand name.

Microsoft needed a phone manufacturer for Windows Mobile (or whatever it's called now) and Nokia needed an OS - plus the Nokia name would stand out still.

Nokia were a great mobile phone manufacturer who completely ignored smartphones from the outset - so they were in deep shit even before the Microsoft partnership.

Re:Kicking themselves yet? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36303970)

Dilution of their brand name? What happens to their brand name if the entire company dies?

They're being squeezed at the low end by Asian brands and squeezed at the high end by American brands. That doesn't leave much.

Re:Kicking themselves yet? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36305412)

They had no choice but to get into bed with MS. That I agree with. Android would have been a poor choice.

Nokia invented the smartphone. Though they wouldn't be considered so 'smart' nowadays.

Qt is safe. Nokia is also interested in "disruptive technologies". Do I have to paint a picture?

Re:Kicking themselves yet? (1)

Hognoxious (631665) | more than 2 years ago | (#36302896)

Not as much as Microsoft do.

Major LOLZ.

Re:Kicking themselves yet? (1)

RightSaidFred99 (874576) | more than 2 years ago | (#36303202)

Yeah, you seem to have the cause and the symptom confused there, dude.

Nokia is not free of guilt (1)

paladinsama (1831732) | more than 3 years ago | (#36303290)

On 2008 they released their online game store called NGAGE 2.0, but a year later they announced they were closing it. They shut down the activation servers earlier this year making it impossible to reinstall anything you legally bought from them. A lot of people usually complain about DRM, well Nokia did the worst use of it by locking out customers from their purchases. If their fate after the Microsoft deal is horrible, they may actually deserve it.

Well duh (2, Insightful)

ozmanjusri (601766) | more than 2 years ago | (#36302458)

You partner with Microsoft, you pay the price.

It's been that way for decades.

Re:Well duh (4, Insightful)

the linux geek (799780) | more than 2 years ago | (#36302602)

How is the lagging Symbian business, which has been rotting for years, remotely related to Microsoft?

Announcing your platform is dead, not good for biz (3, Insightful)

guidryp (702488) | more than 2 years ago | (#36302698)

How is the lagging Symbian business, which has been rotting for years, remotely related to Microsoft?

When you tell the world you are jumping ship, you can expect many potential customers will as well. Similar to the Osbourne effect.

Re:Announcing your platform is dead, not good for (1)

Sir_Sri (199544) | more than 3 years ago | (#36303478)

That problem is that they didn't say 1: we're jumping ship and 2: we're launching WP7 devices within the next 30 days.

Letting symbian die a long slow death is monumentally stupid. They've had time to both think about this decision, and build the partnership with MS (or google), and actually implement solutions. Symbian should be dead already, and the only Nokia phone you should be able to buy should have WP7 (or whatever else they could have gone with).

Nokia is the (old) GM of the phone business. They had a phone for everyone. That's not, in and of itself, a bad strategy. But the 'computer' part of the phone (which apple and google are doing well with) sucked, they had great 'phone' parts (call quality, voice dialing etc.). Whether or not WP7, and MS cash can save them remains to be seen. But announcing your current product lineup is dead out the door, and *not* having a replacement ready to launch is begging for trouble.

July 2011 is the 3 year anniversary of the iPhone 3g, which, IMO was the first good computer with a phone attached. Before that, Nokia had better phones, browsers etc. as did RIM. Now my iPhone 3g is, in many ways, a piece of junk (lack of replacable battery for example, general lack of build quality etc.). But on July 11, 2011 (3rd anniversary of the 3g), Nokia won't have an offering on par with the iPhone 3g. That says a lot about what they've been doing, or not doing, for the last 4 years. Don't get me wrong, the N8 isn't a terrible product, but it has no where near the software umph that the iphone does. Better camera, replacable battery, good, terrible software, bad.

By now Nokia should have either an ARM or x86 WP7 on the market, even a single core roughly on par with a nexus S/iphone 4 sort of level. Windows phones might be behind the curve, but with a big backer they might kick their ass in gear. Nothing of the sort has happened, and they're getting nothing done.

Re:Announcing your platform is dead, not good for (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36304918)

But on July 11, 2011 (3rd anniversary of the 3g), Nokia won't have an offering on par with the iPhone 3g. That says a lot about what they've been doing, or not doing, for the last 4 years. Don't get me wrong, the N8 isn't a terrible product, but it has no where near the software umph that the iphone does. Better camera, replacable battery, good, terrible software, bad.

By now Nokia should have either an ARM or x86 WP7 on the market, even a single core roughly on par with a nexus S/iphone 4 sort of level. Windows phones might be behind the curve, but with a big backer they might kick their ass in gear. Nothing of the sort has happened, and they're getting nothing done.

iPhone 3G -> N810 WIMAX?
single core Nexus S/iPhone 4 -> N900?
Okay, the N810 isn't GSM and the N900 comes up just short (spec wise) of the iPhone 4. But Nokia tried to really go in to the "what computers have become" angle with Maemo, and due to Nokia's failtastic marketing, it didn't fly.

Disclosure: I'm a N900 user.

Microsoft is salvation (0)

SuperKendall (25149) | more than 2 years ago | (#36302658)

The Microsoft deal has not kicked in yet.

The problems we see are Nokia without Microsoft.

Microsoft is Nokia's only hope for redemption and a seat back at the top of the market (Android would only have given them the former).

Same happend to their last cell-phone partner. (2)

ron_ivi (607351) | more than 2 years ago | (#36302662)

Same happened to their first cell phone partner
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2003/01/07/sendo_sues_microsoft_over_secret/ [theregister.co.uk]

"Microsoft's secret plan was to plunder the small company of its proprietary information, technical expertise, market knowledge, customers and prospective customers," the filing said. "Microsoft gained Sendo's trust and confidence through false promises that Sendo would be its 'go-to-market-partner'."

This information was passed onto low-cost manufacturers in Asia, Sendo alleges. The first Microsoft Smartphone launched in Europe was the Orange SUV, built by Taiwanese firm HTC. It will be interesting to see if this deal is dragged into the case.

Re:Well duh (1)

recoiledsnake (879048) | more than 2 years ago | (#36302682)

You partner with Microsoft, you pay the price.

It's been that way for decades.

Like HP, Acer, Dell, Sony, Asus, HTC and tens of thousands of ISV's ? Not to mention that it was Microsoft which forced the prices of computers down(leading to the x86 takeover of the server environment on which Linux thrives) due to licensing to multiple OEMs so they became affordable to the general public and the rest of the world. If you think Apple's prices are high now, imagine what they would be if there was minimal competition.

Nokia's situation is in a major because not being able to implement Meego/Maemo(Linux, if it needs reminding) properly inspite of throwing a thousand devs and billions into it and the products were all Open Source. How is that Microsoft's fault? If anything, it shows the dangers of the fallacies of expecting FOSS to be a magic cure-all without proper UI and architectural design etc. According to the wisdom on Slashdot,, A team of ninja developers descend by magic on any FOSS project and then make it the best, surpassing all the other offerings.

I thought the discussion might be around the lessons of why they failed, but it didn't take a few minutes before the regulars descend into a 'M$' hating circle jerk.

Oops,sorry, didn't mean to step into the selective memoried Slashdot bitchfest.

Re:Well duh (0)

Microlith (54737) | more than 2 years ago | (#36302998)

Like HP, Acer, Dell, Sony, Asus, HTC and tens of thousands of ISV's

The ISVs were bullied plenty by Microsoft. The past 10 years haven't been as bad because MS was under the microscope.

Not to mention that it was Microsoft which forced the prices of computers down(leading to the x86 takeover of the server environment on which Linux thrives) due to licensing to multiple OEMs so they became affordable to the general public and the rest of the world.

Yeah, MICROSOFT did that. No one else, no other reason, but MICROSOFT. Thank you, MICROSOFT, for without you computing would have been impossible.

If you think Apple's prices are high now, imagine what they would be if there was minimal competition.

I think that without MS there would be more competition and more diversity.

Nokia's situation is in a major because not being able to implement Meego/Maemo(Linux, if it needs reminding) properly inspite of throwing a thousand devs and billions into it and the products were all Open Source.

So, Nokia is incompetent. There's nothing new here. They had an awesome set of technologies growing internally yet they dropped the ball completely.

If anything, it shows the dangers of the fallacies of expecting FOSS to be a magic cure-all without proper UI and architectural design etc. According to the wisdom on Slashdot,, A team of ninja developers descend by magic on any FOSS project and then make it the best, surpassing all the other offerings.

No, that's just you getting a FOSS hatefest rolling. We've seen Microsoft destroy partners before, with FOSS the only one who can undermine your success is yourself. Nokia's horribly thick bureaucracy populated by the old guard who didn't want to see things change refused to allow the company to bring up something new on the high end, stymieing and stalling things until it was too late.

Re:Well duh (1)

recoiledsnake (879048) | more than 3 years ago | (#36303554)

>The ISVs were bullied plenty by Microsoft. The past 10 years haven't been as bad because MS was under the microscope.

Name more than a handful of ISVs that were bullied by MS apart from the few standard ones referenced like DR-DOS and DRVSPACE. Compare that number to the number of companies that hit it big (and still do) by being ISVs. And name other companies that have been friendlier to partners regarding backwards compatibility etc.

>Yeah, MICROSOFT did that. No one else, no other reason, but MICROSOFT. Thank you, MICROSOFT, for without you computing would have been impossible.

High on snark and strawman arguments, low on content. How about acknowledging that Microsoft's model of being only a software platform helped competition in hardware and drive down costs, for example AMD wouldn't exist now, as Apple has only 1 CPU supplier.

I think that without MS there would be more competition and more diversity.

How about elaborating how the computing nirvana you envision would've come about instead of silly handwaving?

No, that's just you getting a FOSS hatefest rolling

Pointing out that FOSS is not a panacea for companies is hatefest trolling?

Re:Well duh (1)

pandrijeczko (588093) | more than 2 years ago | (#36302856)

I'm no MS fan but you are wrong in this instance. Nokia did not want to become "just another Android smartphone company" for reasons of pride in the brand name, they had no choice but to go with Microsoft.

Yes, the story of this partnership is just beginning but both companies do NEED each other if they are going to do anything in the smartphone arena.

Re:Well duh (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36303178)

Nokia did not want to become "just another Android smartphone company"

Can somebody please explain to me how they aren't "just another Windows Phone company" now? At least with Android, they could have truly differentiated themselves and replaced the market with Ovi. If they think they are going to be the only ones selling Windows Phone, somebody should probably mention that to the manufacturers like HTC and Samsung that are already selling WP7 devices as we speak! And we're led to believe Steve Jobs is the only one wielding a Reality Distortion Field.

Re:Well duh (1)

pandrijeczko (588093) | more than 3 years ago | (#36303372)

My experience is that five years ago, if you asked someone in the street what mobile phone they own, they would have said "Nokia" or "Motorola".

Ask them the question today and they will say "Android", "iPhone" or "Blackberry" - so in the case of Android, the manufacturer brand name has been very diluted, if not lost completely.

This may well be the case with Microsoft also, but at the moment Windows mobile penetration is very small anywhere.

Re:Well duh (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36303778)

Ask them the question today and they will say "Android", "iPhone" or "Blackberry" - so in the case of Android, the manufacturer brand name has been very diluted, if not lost completely.

For 2 of the three phones you list, there is only one manufacturer so of course people will say that name when you ask them what kind of phone they have. I'd be willing to bet that people are much more likely to be able to name the manufacturer of their Android phone than a Windows Phone 7 device.

Your "explanation" doesn't pass the sniff test. Grasping at straws isn't going to save Nok. Actually, it's most likely, nothing will.

Re:Well duh (1)

Locutus (9039) | more than 3 years ago | (#36305286)

I might believe what the Microsoft Executive come Nokia CEO said except he said Google was a competitor. That my friend is a Microserf talking because Google does not compete with their phone hardware partners. On top of that, Microsoft has put the screws down on hardware vendors building Windows Phone 7 phones so there's little hardware _and_ software creativity to add( ie value add ). There was just a story about a PC OEM saying Microsoft is clamping down on them too. So I call bullshit on Elop and why they claimed they could not compete in the Android market space and had no choice but Microsoft.

My first thought when I read the article headline went like this, 'so this is working out just the way Microsoft planned and they'll soon be able to purchase Nokia for next to nothing.' Microsoft partners almost always end up as a pile of bones on the side of the road.

LoB

Re:Well duh (1)

RightSaidFred99 (874576) | more than 2 years ago | (#36303210)

Don't be silly. When you make an outdated product and don't keep it cutting edge, you pay the price. Then you go crawling to Microsoft out of desperation. Microsoft didn't cause Nokia's problems, Nokia did.

Deal with the Devel (-1, Troll)

slushdotter (2218672) | more than 2 years ago | (#36302466)

Sure it looks nice, but its time for nokia to do their part of the deal. Their shares are justplumbing [thoughts.com]

Re:Deal with the Devel (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36302588)

Goatse link.

Re:Deal with the Devel (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36302642)

MOD PARENT DOWN - GOAT SE CX

Make a deal with the Devil; Get Burned! (0)

VortexCortex (1117377) | more than 2 years ago | (#36302468)

Whoops, unfortunately they didn't take the cues from Novel -- MS is the Devil!

Low point or not (1)

high_rolla (1068540) | more than 2 years ago | (#36302510)

Will be interesting to see if this is their low point or if it is heading down to their low point. The other manufacturers are putting out some pretty schmick Android phones at the moment and the iPhone 5 should be released (or at least talked about) in the not too distant future. Nokia's competition seems to be strengthening while it's away regrouping.

Re:Low point or not (1)

pandrijeczko (588093) | more than 2 years ago | (#36303020)

I'm no MS fan, I'm a Linux bloke, but I heard a fact today that made me think that there's "life in the old dog yet".

Apparently, Microsoft Kinect is currently the fastest selling electronic device ever [bbc.co.uk] - yep, faster selling than iPhones, iPads, Android phones, etc. etc.

Yep, there's no getting away from the fact that Microsoft have made some blunders in recent years and I personally won't mourn their passing too much - but don't dismiss them just yet.

Re:Low point or not (1)

symbolset (646467) | more than 3 years ago | (#36303316)

That author had some stunningly forward looking observations back then. For example, here [theregister.co.uk] and here [theregister.co.uk] . He's not always coherent, but it's still great work.

Nah (1)

OverlordQ (264228) | more than 2 years ago | (#36302526)

They're just copying the Microsoft XBox model, sell at a loss and hopefully make it up elsewhere.

Re:Nah (1)

Osgeld (1900440) | more than 2 years ago | (#36302714)

yea well the xbox scheme (why is it called this? almost all game consoles have done this) has the advantage of only running licensed software

Little to do with MS. (4, Interesting)

mirix (1649853) | more than 2 years ago | (#36302542)

TFA says it's mostly due to them getting cut at both ends. By the Chinese on low price phones, which Nokia has traditionally sold an ass-ton of, world wide. And by android and apple on the top end. (I think this is a lot more in the US than the ROTW, but US is a big smartphone market...)

Kind of a shame really, I was looking forward to more N900-esque phones, but I don't think that will be happening anymore. I'll also miss smartphones with buttons on them.

"It remains to be seen how low [market share] could go, but for smartphones we are talking about going under 20% this year." Only two years ago Nokia had a 40% share of the smartphone market, but it was passed in the first quarter of this year by Android, with 32%. Nokia had 24% and Apple 18%.

Re:Little to do with MS. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36302734)

Die Nokia Die!

I've concluded only free software companies like Redhat have any hope. All other companies which buy out the smaller free software companies only ruin them and end up failing in the long term. Not because free software isn't profitable. Rather because these companies are simply desperate and have no solid direction. The CEO's are in it for the short term gain and have no interest in the long term success of the company.

Re:Little to do with MS. (1)

SoftwareArtist (1472499) | more than 2 years ago | (#36302892)

I wouldn't call that "little to do with MS". The only reason they're having trouble competing with Android is that they don't themselves make Android phones. Instead they have their own smartphone OS that can't compete, and they're switching from that to a different smartphone OS that also shows no sign of being able to compete. If they began making Android phones, they would then be competing strictly on hardware. That would have been a bad thing when their OS was a positive differentiator. But today it's become a major liability. Having the same OS as everyone else would now be a big improvement for them.

The problem, of course, is that they can't do that. They've signed a contract with MS agreeing to use WP exclusively.

Re:Little to do with MS. (1)

Microlith (54737) | more than 2 years ago | (#36303162)

Having the same OS as everyone else would now be a big improvement for them.

It would also have put them under Google's thumb. Had they not been weighed down by ineffective bureaucracy and allowed the Internet Tablet teams to execute with more support than they had with the N900, they might have had something worthwhile.

But alas, the Symbian teams kept pumping out more terrible devices. And with Elop on board I'd be shocked if it wasn't decided to move to WP7 as soon as he walked through the doors, but just delayed to prevent panic.

Re:Little to do with MS. (1)

Paradise Pete (33184) | more than 3 years ago | (#36305198)

Having the same OS as everyone else would now be a big improvement for them.

Not a lasting one. Long term they'd be selling the same commodity as everyone else. There's no margin in that. That's why Apple will continue to make the huge piles o' cash even while Android phones outsell them. A large number of Android phone sales will be simply "I don't want an iPhone. What else have you got?" And the "what else" would be some random Android phone. At least with WP7 they have some small chance of differentiating their product. Of course by then they will be a division of Microsoft. Nokia's market cap dropped today by 0.5 Skypes. Soon it will be so cheap that Microsoft's clandestine acquisition scheme can be completed.

Re:Little to do with MS. (1)

owlstead (636356) | more than 2 years ago | (#36303098)

They are doing pretty bad in western Europe too, it's certainly not just the US.

Re:Little to do with MS. (1)

Error27 (100234) | more than 3 years ago | (#36303454)

All the money is really at the high end. Nokia went from owning 29% to owning 24% of the smart phone market. Everyone predicted that they would lose a lot of the market, but I don't think anyone predicted it would be that bad, that quickly.

When Nokia decided to switch to Windows, they knew that they would have to limp along selling their old phones this year. People were obviously going to buy fewer phones and they were going to want them at a cheaper price because they're EOL. Hopefully next year when the first Windows phones came out, they'd be able to make money again.

It was a huge gamble to throw away a year for something that wasn't tested. It seems like customers aren't willing to wait a year for a Windows phone.

Re:Little to do with MS. (1)

Atomic Fro (150394) | more than 3 years ago | (#36305476)

It seems like customers aren't willing to wait a year for a Windows phone.

You have it wrong. Nokia's customers don't want Windows Phone.

Re:Little to do with MS. (1)

blind biker (1066130) | more than 3 years ago | (#36305196)

It could easily have to do with MS (or better say, Elop's deal with MS): I sure as hell wouldn't buy a Symbian smartphone, once Elop announced Symbian is on the chopping block. Would you?

MS hate from a bunch of idiots... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36302546)

Oh grow up all you Microsoft haters. They had nothing more to do with Nokia loss in sales then the Skype outage a little while ago.
Hate on Micorosft hasn't been deserving or relevant for quite some time, and you missed that bandwagon and are now walking along the road of shame.

It's embarrassing to read those type of comments, and just makes me sigh in sadness for those people who still thinks it's clever to rip on Microsoft.

FFS get over yourselves.

Re:MS hate from a bunch of idiots... (0, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36303258)

Any company that can only compete through underhanded backroom tactics [pcworld.com] instead of delivering a solid product deserves all of the hate it can receive. Microsoft hasn't changed one iota.

Re:MS hate from a bunch of idiots... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36304212)

You seem to mistake the business world as a happy-go-lucky place where anyone gives a fuck what nerds think makes a "solid product."

Sorry that Windows is still eating the lunch of your preferred platform. Maybe you'll get over it this decade?

Re:MS hate from a bunch of idiots... (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36304256)

You seem to mistake the business world as a happy-go-lucky place where anyone gives a fuck what nerds think makes a "solid product."

Given the choice, I'd rather just do business with someone else. Especially someone else with the superior platform [android.com] Not to mention the fact that in the "business world", the market agrees with me that Microsoft just plain sucks. [businessinsider.com]

Sorry that Windows is still eating the lunch of your preferred platform.

Not really. [telecompaper.com]

How them grapes taste?

Don't worry about QT (-1, Troll)

slushdotter (2218672) | more than 2 years ago | (#36302554)

KDE developers said [thoughts.com] a week ago that they can easily handle it, and it would even be better to have it as a part of the KDE, just like GTK is

Re:Don't worry about QT (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36302722)

MOD PARENT DOWN - goat se DOT cx LINK!

Re:Don't worry about QT (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36302736)

its http://goatse.ru/ [goatse.ru] link you insensitive clod!

Re:Don't worry about QT (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36302752)

Beware - goatse link!

Haha! (0, Troll)

ickleberry (864871) | more than 2 years ago | (#36302612)

They're a burning now! Serves them right for how they mothballed Maemo and instead threw all their efforts behind two shite operating systems; Symbian and WM. Used em both and I can say WM sucks considerably more than the dead horse that is symbian.

Re:Haha! (1)

mirix (1649853) | more than 2 years ago | (#36302694)

A lot of the Symbian hate is justified, it's a bit of a pain to develop for and things like that (although new symbian releases support Qt right? should make things easier).

But symbian has some nice features too. Like being designed ground up for phones, so you get things like having much longer battery life - days, not hours. Try that with an iphone or android.

Re:Haha! (0)

recoiledsnake (879048) | more than 2 years ago | (#36302730)

Are you talking about WP7 or WM ? I am having a hard time imagining WP7 to be much worse than Symbian.

Re:Haha! (1)

The Dawn Of Time (2115350) | more than 3 years ago | (#36304224)

It's easy to have a phone last days when it's basically unusable and hence unused.

Not Microsoft. They have the GM problem (1)

RyuuzakiTetsuya (195424) | more than 2 years ago | (#36302624)

The TFA said that, as I've suggested over and over again that cheap Chinese phones are eating their lunch at the low end and Android and iPhone have been eating their lunch at the high end.

They have the GM problem. Being number one doesn't keep you immune from having to still pull a profit.

Granted in future quarters Microsoft is going to probably be an albatross on their necks, but that's not Elop's fault, it's OPK's fault.

Beginning of the End (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36302762)

This the beginning of the end for Nokia. The company's not been able to answer the competition that American companies like Google and Apple poised to it. The reason for this is that the company's internal processes are not from the IT but traditional manufacturing industries. (All explained in painful detail in this article [www.hs.fi] .) Nokia's only viable products are Qt and Maemo, which were both developed externally outside the so-called "Nokia Process", both of which coincidentally are not part of the current future roadmap (MeeGo is Lost In Action and Qt will not be ported to WP7).

For those who say Elop will give new direction: no, I don't believe it. I am be tempted to raw parallels to Obama: a black horse; lots of hype, but little actual concretion, all while the economy still continues to plummet. My advise for those who own Nokia's shares: hold them until mid-Q4. If there is no takeover bid from Microsoft by November, dump them at whatever price the market is still willing to pay.

Now Playing: The DoorsThe End

Re:Beginning of the End (1)

amiga3D (567632) | more than 2 years ago | (#36302804)

I think a Microsoft buyin is a sure bet.

Re:Beginning of the End (3, Interesting)

pandrijeczko (588093) | more than 2 years ago | (#36303132)

I agree with you.

For years Microsoft have been desperate to get into telecoms so they can link products like Exchange and Outlook properly into instant and multimedia communications. That's why they have the Office Communicator product to provide the linkage across IM, VoIP and (I assume at some point) video.

Most other telecoms companies have invested heavily into SIP (Session Initiation Protocol) which, for those who don't know, is an open protocol that allows messaging/telephony/video endpoints to register and intercommunicate on the Internet.

Skype doesn't use SIP but their own proprietary protocol, though I believe it can and does interface to SIP - and Microsoft bought Skype recently.

One of the last pieces of the puzzle to solve in VoIP telecoms is to do smart stuff with mobile phones, where you can do transparent movement between cellular networks and the Internet, and build all of that into Enterprise telecoms - so, for example, if you are away from your desk and your desk extension phone rings, you can pick the call up on the mobile phone in your pocket, stuff like that.

Clearly, with what Microsoft has been doing and buying in the past few years, they are definitely interested in telecoms and VoIP, partnering or absorbing a company that make cellular handsets would make sense as part of that overall strategy.

Oh what could have been (1)

arcite (661011) | more than 2 years ago | (#36302778)

I always thought it would have been cool for Nokia to partner up with Apple in the pre-iphone days. Apple had the software and UI know-how, Nokia had superior hardware... well, iPhone has gone through many iterations and has progressively become superior to anything Nokia could ever muster. Nokia will rue the day Apple comes out with a $100 iPhone, they'll be relegated to making cheap solar powered 'dumb phones' to sell to developing countries. My current Nokia is a 'dumb-phone' that was made in India, has a 1 inch colour screen, built in radio, and LED flashlight. The phone is functional, nearly indestructible, and cost me about $30. This is Nokia's future.

Re:Oh what could have been (1)

gmhowell (26755) | more than 3 years ago | (#36304156)

Nokia will rue the day Apple comes out with a $100 iPhone, they'll be relegated to making cheap solar powered 'dumb phones' to sell to developing countries.

So Apple will have to double the price of the 3gs [apple.com] ? And there are several Droids for ~$100, aren't there?

Not sure about the rest of the world, but in the US, I only see two things keeping non-Droid/non-iOS phones from being 100% of the market. First is that for some people, even a $49 phone is too much. Second is the carriers. Be it from forced pricey contracts or whatever religious mania that has people attracted to non-Verizon/non-AT&T carriers.

Loan Time (1)

amiga3D (567632) | more than 2 years ago | (#36302790)

Maybe they can get Microsoft to prop them up with some money? I'm sure Redmond would like to keep their partner going strong.

Re:Loan Time (1)

elPetak (2016752) | more than 3 years ago | (#36304590)

you on crack?
Microsoft only cares about Microsoft.

Maybe MS will pick them up for 8 billion (1)

strangeattraction (1058568) | more than 2 years ago | (#36302826)

I'd wait until they are worth the same as Skype:)

Re:Maybe MS will pick them up for 8 billion (1)

symbolset (646467) | more than 3 years ago | (#36304998)

Well if you subtract out their $11.5B in cash and short term investments, Nokia can be had today for $15B. So it's getting close. Your target would put the price at $5.26, or 25 percent off today's closing price. That's easily doable by the end of the year if they keep cranking out the bad news.

And in other news... (1)

lender3212000 (1579903) | more than 2 years ago | (#36303190)

Atari sales are down. Outdated companies that can't continue to innovate and keep up with their competition become casulaties in a free-market system. End of story.

Re:And in other news... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36303572)

Atari sales can't be down! I just bought the most craptastic terrible console port to pc d&d game ever from them! Daggerdale!

ohhh.... i see.

They should've went with their Linux phones (1)

guruevi (827432) | more than 3 years ago | (#36304384)

The Nokia N7xx-8xx were really, really nice for a smartphone and plenty hackable and had a large (open source) software repository by the time Apple came up to speed with the App Store. The main reasons those platforms bled to death was because they didn't want to invest even a fraction of time and money in it. The community around it was great however but Nokia euthanized it at the point they needed it the most. It could've beat Android before it even became successful, it has all the same great features of Android but none of the sluggishness.

Re:They should've went with their Linux phones (1)

CRCulver (715279) | more than 3 years ago | (#36304730)

The Nokia N7xx-8xx were really, really nice for a smartphone

They weren't smartphones, they were internet tablets.

Re:They should've went with their Linux phones (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36305300)

The Nokia N7xx-8xx were really, really nice for a smartphone

They weren't smartphones, they were internet tablets.

And they were STILL better as smartphones than current smartphones

The real problem is phone usage. (2)

BravoZuluM (232200) | more than 3 years ago | (#36304734)

I work for a large cellular firm. Not more than a handful of employees use our software products but instead use the Apple iPhone. It shows in the software quality side of our product. If we actually used our own product, those errors would disappear because they are obvious and the developer would fix his own phone.

I suspect the same thing happens at Nokia. I am currently running a Nokia N8. Hands down, the best cell hardware available. I can make calls, from my office, will full bars indicated. My iPhone 4 could not make the connection and appeared out of service while I work in the middle of a large city. I can drive through the local mountains with no dropped calls on the N8. The iPhone, constant drops. Why do people put up with the hardware, because they think the software is so good. Can't make a phone call, no biggie because I have this neat bird rage game from the easy to use app store. My N8, takes amazing photos and videos, but moving the media is as straight forward as it should be.

So I can tell you with a high degree of certainty that Nokia employees are not using Nokia products. If they were, the simplest app errors I find on my N8 would not exist. The owner of that software component would soon feel the problem and fix it. My N8 has basic problems with Bluetooth functionality. Screens popup when no user action triggered it. My ear can hangup a phone call because when I answer it and put my head to the phone, my ear touches a button and the software happily complies. Did the developer check the orientation sensor and disable the buttons? The dialer is inconvenient. How many automated systems are out there Nokia? And whenever I encounter one, it is a pain in the butt to punch in the dialer. How about when the orientation is more horizontal, pushing the dialer button puts it into speaker mode. But, only if you aren't on a connected blue tooth. I could go on an on.

Maybe that isn't enough to convince? I worked for Nokia a while ago. Many engineers had Nokia branded phones. They would write custom software and re-flashed their phones for even more innovative functionality. Then the Motorola Razor came out. Within a month, every engineer, in the meetings I attended, had a Razor. The Razor was perhaps the beginning of the end of good Nokia software. They just can't seem to catch up and even my N8, which as an updated UI drops back to an old school UI when I push the button.

When Nokia bought Trolltech, I was a little apprehensive and felt they would probably kill the framework. When they started working hard on the phone platform, I really started to get into it. My desktop QT code was reusable on my devices. But Nokia didn't disappoint. After a record QT Dev Days event, which seems to indicate a swelling interest by developers, Elop mothballs QT. Figures, Elop isn't a visionary. He is a snakeoil salesman trying to get his next bonus at the expense of a long range vision and plan. Everyone thinks they can be a Steve Jobs, but when you tie your products to your month to month, and quarter to quarter results, you get rushed, poor products.

At Microsoft, many of the Engineers do use the Windows 7 phone. It's not bad and is usable....for 2004. but Microsoft will slowly evolve the platform and will probably carve out a large piece of the market. If they put native code back in, I will develop for it. but none of this is going to help Nokia. What's going to be their value add? Their employees will still probably not use the phone so their rendition will just be a poor copy of a Windows 7 device while they try to sell their GSM chips.

If I were Elop, I would have tied bonuses to owning the company products. You own a device not branded by Nokia? You forgo bonuses and promotions. Apple produces compelling technology because your employees have a passion in it. They live and breathe the brand and work to produce the best product available. My guess is that Elop has a Blackberry or a Windows 7 phone. It starts at the top. He should own and use the N8. His VPs should all own and use the product. Every designer and engineer should own and use a Nokia branded product. The software would quickly improve. It would have to. I think the phone hanging up a call because my ear hit the end call button, when taking a call would have been resolved with rev 1.1.

QT wasn't the problem. It was and is the solution.

Re:mod parent up (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36305384)

I wish I wasn't a forever anonymous coward, so I could give you a mod point. I hope someone else does.

It may be a little fascist to *require* that they eat their own dog food, but I'll be damned if it wouldn't solve the problem.

yup (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36304772)

That's what happens when you make a crappy product that costs less/more than a extremely visible and available competitor.
(Namely, iPhone, Samsung, HTC, Sony)

Low Point (1)

Udo Schmitz (738216) | more than 3 years ago | (#36305418)

could mark the low point for Nokia

Nope, not yet.

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