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North Korea Training "Cyberwarriors" Abroad

samzenpus posted more than 3 years ago | from the virtual-Hwacha dept.

Government 128

jfruhlinger writes "A North Korean defector claims that the secretive totalitarian state is nurturing a team of "cyberwarriors," identifying young people with computer skills and sending them abroad to learn the latest hacking techniques, while lavishing privileges on their families at home to keep them loyal. This could lead to an escalation in tensions, especially given that the US military believes that cyberattacks from foreign countries constitute acts of war."

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"acts of war" (4, Insightful)

nurb432 (527695) | more than 3 years ago | (#36315484)

Well, if its state sponsored, i have to agree. An attack on a countries infrastructure is still war.

Re:"acts of war" (1)

jhoegl (638955) | more than 3 years ago | (#36315526)

Yeah... much like our "Y2K" problems in the 1990s.

Could Cyber wars launch nukes?
(Waits to see this on news stations everywhere)

Why? we had no Y2K issue in the 90's. (1)

WindBourne (631190) | more than 3 years ago | (#36315612)

The Y2 issue was a 00 issue.

Re:Why? we had no Y2K issue in the 90's. (2, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36315754)

I thought it was a 19100 issue.

Re:"acts of war" (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36315544)

At least we're safe from Africa. They never even invented writing or the wheel on their own. Stupid niggers. We're in no danger from them. That's one continent in the bank. Next!

Oh yeah and if you think African history is so perfect and so bloodless compared to the white man's history, read a few fucking books mmmkay? Africans just about made genocide into an art form. They don't _need_ whitey to keep themselves down. Oh yeah and guess who sold Africans into white slavery? Other Africans. They were not taken by force. Look it up yourself. Then there's the staggeringly high rate of AIDS in Africa. What a great place!

So deny bullshit and acknowledge truth even if it isn't PC. Asia is what you gotta worry about. Not Africa. Asians are kicking our asses economically. No surprise Asians are kicking our asses on computer security too. Microsoft is an American company.

Re:"acts of war" (-1, Troll)

GPLHost-Thomas (1330431) | more than 3 years ago | (#36315806)

WAKE UP, PEOPLE. It's the 4th time this week that I see a "news" about countries in Asia having plans to destroy the Nation with so called "cyber warriors". There's no such thing as a war only by moving bits on the internet. A war that kills people by thousands is what the Obama administration is doing in Afganistan, Irak, Lybia. This has nothing to do with what these "articles" are mentioning, and which goal is to let you believe that the government must do something about it. There's no "act of war" threat, appart from the one of your own government.

Re:"acts of war" (3, Insightful)

lightknight (213164) | more than 3 years ago | (#36316350)

Maybe. But they are running out of white elephants. They need a new enemy, and they need a new one NOW! How else are they going to justify the 2014 budget?

Crackers / Hackers / Hacktivists (bleh!) are one of those groups that people don't really understand (like Muslims, Chinese, etc.) that makes it easy to say "THEY CAN DO BAD THINGS, JUST LOOK AT THEM!" and no one really knows them well-enough to say otherwise. A little priming ("they might be working with drug dealers and arms smugglers...child pornography and human trafficking"), and the media will take to it the way cancer takes to a prostate gland. That civil rights are being strip-mined and purses looted to fuel these witch hunts does not matter; all that matters is that the Good Guys win in the end. And that the guys with guns and small brains get paid. We really haven't progressed from a feudal society, have we?

You can't make a typical Marine into a cyber security expert; the skill-sets for either are almost mutually exclusive. This, of course, does not prevent people from buying security certs and taking pointless low-level courses in basic networking, then declaring themselves security experts. Nor will it prevent the congress critters from lavishing their favorite security firms with outlandish contracts which provide no real security.

I'm not saying that you can't train a Marine into a cyber security expert; what I'm saying is that for every 1 Marine you manage to successfully train, you will have 40,000 hackers / crackers, with higher levels of expertise in the relevant fields, ready to bitch-slap him and his friends off the internet. I think the US government has more to fear from its own people here than foreign governments; and screwing around where it doesn't belong is only going to cause them to lose control that much faster.

Remember, you have lots of underemployed CS / IT people here in the US, because their jobs got sent overseas. Factor in a screwed up currency and a never-ending recession. You end up with down-trodden, under-payed, over-worked, and typically highly-trained in all that technology class of people. Now tell them that the US government is going to help make things more secure, by mandating that a bunch of ill-trained marines have backdoor access to every important system in the US. That they need to keep port 23423 open at all times, or they will be fined. That they need to configure their systems to use some officially sanctioned software for virus protection, because someone in DC managed to pass a law mandating it.

They will get a war, but it won't be the one they are preparing for.

Re:"acts of war" (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36317650)

They will get a war, but it won't be the one they are preparing for

That can work both ways, sweetness.

Re:"acts of war" (3, Insightful)

Chicken_Kickers (1062164) | more than 3 years ago | (#36315824)

Yes, and remember citizens, if They do it, it is an act of war but if We do it, then it is cybersecurity and intelligence gathering.

Seriously, at this point, any country not training or hiring CyberWarriors(TM) is behind the times. Except of course American media likes to be jingoistic and xenophobic, what else is new?

Re:"acts of war" (1)

Thing 1 (178996) | more than 3 years ago | (#36318244)

A few days ago, for the first time in my life ever, I heard an ad recruiting for the CIA on the radio. Yes, I am seriously thinking it might be time to get out, like early 1930's Germany...

Re:"acts of war" (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36318884)

Yes, but we're doing it for different reasons. that shouldn't have to be explained but so many on /. are so obtuse.

Re:"acts of war" (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36316050)

Offcourse that is just as relevant as the US and Israel launching cyber attacks on Iran

Re:"acts of war" (1)

X.25 (255792) | more than 3 years ago | (#36316484)

Well, if its state sponsored, i have to agree. An attack on a countries infrastructure is still war.

So, USA is in war with Pakistan for quite some time now?

Re:"acts of war" (1)

satuon (1822492) | more than 3 years ago | (#36316684)

If you're talking about Stuxnet, Israel is the prime suspect.

Re:"acts of war" (1)

Arancaytar (966377) | more than 3 years ago | (#36316736)

And if we're talking about Stuxnet, the target was Iran.

Re:"acts of war" (1)

slackbheep (1420367) | more than 3 years ago | (#36318702)

Never let details get in the way of a good theory.

Re:"acts of war" (1)

VortexCortex (1117377) | more than 3 years ago | (#36316510)

Damn, I'm tired of holding my bladder... my popcorn could use a re-fill too. When this act of War is over, can we please have an intermission?

Or... Wouldn't you prefer a nice game of chess?

Re:"acts of war" (2)

Xest (935314) | more than 3 years ago | (#36317224)

The issue is it lowers the barrier to starting a war, which may mean more wars.

If a kid in say, Iran hacks into some US infrastructure off his own back and causes damage then with the US' venemous hate of the country, is it sensible that they then fire back with conventional weapons such as a cruise missile? Isn't that a dangerous precedent for escalation?

Do you draw the line at whether it's state sponsored? what about when you get politicians crying state sponsorship and pushing for war when it's not?

Honestly, the best option is to make sure your infrastructure isn't vulnerable in the first place. Take critical infrastructure like power plants offline so they can't be hacked via the internet and so forth.

Creating conditions where any of 6.5bn people on the planet can unilaterally start a war from the comfort of their bedroom is pretty fucking stupid IMHO.

Re:"acts of war" (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36317432)

Conventional acts of war are easy to detect and can be verified by the press.

"Acts of cyberwar" cannot be independently verified. The new definition basically gives the US a carte blanche to bomb the shit out of any country that has at least one computer connected to the internet. But since the US has bombed countries as they liked all the time anyway not much will change.

Re:"acts of war" (1)

Kamiza Ikioi (893310) | more than 3 years ago | (#36317612)

I highly doubt a man pedaling a stationary bike powering an Atari is an act of war.

Don't worry (1)

Kitkoan (1719118) | more than 3 years ago | (#36315496)

The US has already got their cyber warriors in training for this. They are using the highly sophisticate program/simulation game called "Homefront"

Re:Don't worry (4, Insightful)

TubeSteak (669689) | more than 3 years ago | (#36315788)

The US has already got their cyber warriors in training for this. They are using the highly sophisticate program/simulation game called "Homefront"

Unfortunately for the USA, 'cyber war' is another form of asymmetrical warfare where the USA's massive budget can't help them.
Hacker teams require relatively little in the way of resources, while allowing weak militaries to punch far above their weight.
Worse, a country like North Korea has minimal internet exposure compared to the USA's massive reliance on the internet.

Re:Don't worry (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36315930)

*whoosh*

Re:Don't worry (1)

Kitkoan (1719118) | more than 3 years ago | (#36315962)

I'm guessing you've never heard of the game "Homefront" [homefront-game.com] about how North Korea invades the US.

Re:Don't worry (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36316600)

This is not true. The US is taking the wrong approach to dealing with security. While it may be useful to have people with the skills who can develop the software which can infiltrate and disrupt a countries essential systems this is not what is going to protect America. Especially if a hostile country is attacking. We may not know who is attacking the US if such attacks are performed by a nation which wishes not be identified. Nothing is preventing Iran from attacking the US in the same way we might have attacked them recently. What we need to do is figure out what hardware is critical to industrial operations and then design new hardware to replace it or at least standardize on it so that the code can be reviewed throughly and even rewritten using better coding practices that make up the drivers and operating systems. Then how can we modularize it so you only have the hardware and software needed for critical industries (Certain systems at Nuclear Power plants and other industrial control systems which have no business being on a network should not have Ethernet cards or other typical components like USB, Firewire, and similar. These standards open holes and we can develop new secure replacements which only allow signed hardware to connect.). Graphics chipsets, network chipsets, CPU, and similar all have code that needs to be reviewed or written from the ground up in a secure fashion (probably better). Everything from the BIOS to the operating system drivers, firmware, and operating software. The modular components should then be designed to be easy to remove and determine what is in fact critical. The operating system which makes it possible to connect to a network (the drivers for instance) should not be installed if the system has no need for an Ethernet port. Do we need an Ethernet port? Can we modularize this? How can we eliminate the ability to hook up an Ethernet module? How can we eliminate electromagnetic radiation in these designs.

Re:Don't worry (1)

couchslug (175151) | more than 3 years ago | (#36316794)

Then the sooner we are attacked the sooner we build an immune response. Viruses and malware begat resistance by coercing countermeasures.

What we need, and it's not "nice", is an attack that does real damage and takes down enough systems to force attention.

Re:Don't worry (1)

mjwx (966435) | more than 3 years ago | (#36316670)

The US has already got their cyber warriors in training for this.

Whenever I see the word "cyberwarrior" I tend to think "battleship". In the prelude to WWI European powers spent what would equate to tens of billions of today's pounds building battleships that were veritable floating fortresses meant to control the seas giving a decisive advantage. Battleships that spent most of WWI in dock.

For all the talk, battleships did nothing. It wasn't until generals started thinking "how do I get around this problem" as opposed to "how many men do I have to throw at the enemy guns" did they make progress.

My prediction, cyberwarriors will be useless in the next war if through nothing else, cutting cables will render them useless. The airgap is an impenetrable defence.

Re:Don't worry (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36318090)

Airgap is simple to overcome; although it may take a bit of retrofitting. For LAN, go wireless. For WAN? Back in the '90s, companies had modem pools for people to use remotely... nothing stopping them from doing the same again, but with cell phones and/or packet radio. Slightly lower speeds, but certainly enough to enable connection and data transfer.

they should put in POW camps and the universities (1, Flamebait)

Joe_Dragon (2206452) | more than 3 years ago | (#36315548)

They are doing a war act and the universities if they are us should be ad risk of losing alot I say start at must give up all clams / must pay off any student loan debt and maybe even not being accredited any more. The people sent from there need to go into POW better then gitmo but with the risk of going to place like that if they don't give up there intel.

Re:they should put in POW camps and the universiti (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36315668)

They are doing a war act and the universities if they are us should be ad risk of losing alot I say start at must give up all clams / must pay off any student loan debt and maybe even not being accredited any more.

The people sent from there need to go into POW better then gitmo but with the risk of going to place like that if they don't give up there intel.

Dude, you write like a drunken, retarded, brain-damaged crackhead. I regret the possibility that I am insulting crackheads. Seriously, you are a functionally illiterate jackass who was enormously short-changed by his so-called "teachers". They have failed you and now you follow their example by failing on your own. It's just a gigantic string of interrelated failures. Learn some English and learn some style, for fuck's sake!

Re:they should put in POW camps and the universiti (1)

Ethanol-fueled (1125189) | more than 3 years ago | (#36316092)

Joe:

They are doing a war act and the universities if they are us should be ad risk of losing alot I say start at must give up all clams / must pay off any student loan debt and maybe even not being accredited any more. The people sent from there need to go into POW better then gitmo but with the risk of going to place like that if they don't give up there intel.

He does have a point, dude. North Korea's posturing with `ping -f usa.usa.usa.usa' over 9600 baud modems and Estes-quality nukes ain't got shit on Joe Seung-Hui. [youtube.com]

Re:they should put in POW camps and the universiti (1)

exomondo (1725132) | more than 3 years ago | (#36315722)

They are doing a war act and the universities if they are us should be ad risk of losing alot

So universities shouldn't accept students from Korea? Or China?

Re:they should put in POW camps and the universiti (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36315738)

Speak slowly, I don't understand retard

They can't do squat (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36315550)

The only internet they know of is North Korean Internet. So help them if they find out that there's an internet outside from North Korea's and that imports from god is actually imports from other countries. As far as they are concern, North Korea is Best Korea!

Re:They can't do squat (2)

nospam007 (722110) | more than 3 years ago | (#36316112)

Exactly, 3 weeks out of North Korea and they'll never go back.

Re:They can't do squat (1)

indeterminator (1829904) | more than 3 years ago | (#36317244)

RTFS.

"sending them abroad to learn the latest hacking techniques, while lavishing privileges on their families at home to keep them loyal", where the privileges probably mean the precious privilege of being alive.

Re:They can't do squat (1)

gtall (79522) | more than 3 years ago | (#36318688)

Or more accurately, the precious privilege of keeping one's family alive.

Deluge of scaremongering on /.? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36315568)

There must be a really nasty, privacy eviscerating, 4th Amendment demolishing piece of legislation that's worse than the Patriot Act making it's way through Congressional committees for all of these fucking "Cyberwarrior" stories to keep appearing in the press. Aren't there some shark attacks, or killer tornadoes that the press can cover rather than this bullshit? And why are Slashdot editors contributing to the generation of such needless fear and paranoia by promoting these crap articles on the front page? You should know better.(wags finger)

What could possibly go wrong? (4, Funny)

Geoffrey.landis (926948) | more than 3 years ago | (#36315576)

So, the totalitarian state with a complete control of the news sends its best and most idealistic young men outside the country, to learn about the internet, with the idea that they will go back home and use their knowledge to destroy the foreign enemies.

A fiendish plan. How could it possibly go wrong?

Re:What could possibly go wrong? (1)

lennier (44736) | more than 3 years ago | (#36315630)

A fiendish plan. How could it possibly go wrong?

All those new Farmville and Mafia Wars players? I think the Internet is unprepared for an attack of that magnitude.

Re:What could possibly go wrong? (1)

GameboyRMH (1153867) | more than 3 years ago | (#36319802)

I think the Internet can't handle firepower of that magnitude.

FTFY.

Re:What could possibly go wrong? (1)

jd2112 (1535857) | more than 3 years ago | (#36319960)

(cyberwarior to Kim Jong Il): You pull back on the slingshot, and hurl the bird over to knock down the pig's fort...

Re:What could possibly go wrong? (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36315648)

Nothing, because they know if they defect or otherwise do wrong by the state then their families will be put in forced labor camps, 3 generations worth.

Re:What could possibly go wrong? (1)

stumblingblock (409645) | more than 3 years ago | (#36315886)

What could go wrong? Try to find someone who has lived in Korea, esp. rural area. People who can be very devoted to their principals. Family being held just in case.

Re:What could possibly go wrong? (1)

BenJCarter (902199) | more than 3 years ago | (#36316004)

LoL! I wonder how many post on /.?

Re:What could possibly go wrong? (1)

indiechild (541156) | more than 3 years ago | (#36316576)

I know your comment is supposed to be funny, but on the serious side I doubt these youngsters would turn on the NK regime. They're so thoroughly brainwashed they're far more likely to remain loyal to the bitter end.

Re:What could possibly go wrong? (1)

satuon (1822492) | more than 3 years ago | (#36316710)

And more importantly, while they are sent abroad, their families are not.

Re:What could possibly go wrong? (1)

Arancaytar (966377) | more than 3 years ago | (#36316752)

Can't; not with their family held hostage.

Re:What could possibly go wrong? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36317804)

A fiendish plan. How could it possibly go wrong?

It couldn't, really. Why do you think they'll be heaping benefits on these guys' families? It's the carrot, and the unspoken (or perhaps loudly-spoken, I don't know how these things work in North Korea) alternative is the stick.

"Nice family ya got there. Be a shame if anything happened to it."

Who was the audience (2, Insightful)

JinjaontheNile (2217694) | more than 3 years ago | (#36315660)

Defector says something host country wants to hear
Who would of thought such a thing would happen? . .

Re:Who was the audience (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36316216)

Kind of reminds me of "Curveball", the Iraqi defector who cried wolf just to trick Bush into invasion. I can't say I blame him. If I was oppressed, I would do everything in my power to use a foreign nation as a weapon too.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/video/2011/feb/15/curveball-lies-us-war-iraq-video [guardian.co.uk]

Re:Who was the audience (2)

cold fjord (826450) | more than 3 years ago | (#36316238)

Defector says something host country wants to hear

Who would of thought such a thing would happen?.

You apparently. Only accurate information is useful. And, of course, I'm sure it would never occur to you that the information would be cross-checked? That's what I figured.....

Re:Who was the audience (2)

JinjaontheNile (2217694) | more than 3 years ago | (#36316780)

Your lack of cynicism is awe inspiring
Which story would sell more papers "North Koreans get scholarship to study computing abroad" or "North Korean CyberWarriors being train abroad"
Only information that agrees with a predetermined position is useful (in politics anyway)
Case in point, the information from defectors that formed the Iraqi National Congress.
All the information was in complete disagreement with the UN weapons Inspections - Guess which group was denigrated?
yep the one that disagreed with the predetermined position
There are many other examples I could choose (creationism anyone)
Basically, if you don't know the underlying reason for a statement, you have no chance of determining the probability of truth
My bias is simple, I hate the term cyberwarrior
(Cyber anything = tabloid shit = don't trust)

Re:Who was the audience (2)

Richard_at_work (517087) | more than 3 years ago | (#36317318)

Accurate information is everything. Unfortunately, the British and US intelligence agencies pushed for war based on such wonderful intelligence like some poor chaps university essay, hearsay and outright lies.

I wonder if the costly embarrassment that was the Iraq invasion could have been avoided if actual cross-checking had taken place...

Re:Who was the audience (1)

gtall (79522) | more than 3 years ago | (#36318704)

Actually, the U.S. Intelligence agencies pushed AGAINST war on the grounds they didn't trust the intelligence. It was the Bush administration that twisted it to promote the war. Geeze, at least get your history straight.

Re:Who was the audience (1)

Richard_at_work (517087) | more than 3 years ago | (#36319530)

I'd love to see any actual evidence supporting your "version" of events, because thats not what I've seen - the US intelligence agencies were falling over themselves trying to supply supporting evidence to the Bush administration.

Learn it from whom? (2)

betterunixthanunix (980855) | more than 3 years ago | (#36315670)

Who do they think these guys are going to learn from? Most of the "hacker underground" just wants some lulz or quick and easy cash these days. If the North Koreans think they are going to get their spies in touch with the Stuxnet authors, they have another thing coming.

Re:Learn it from whom? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36315694)

True story. But a great education in computer science and some good classes in computer security, etc. is not a bad start either.

But remember... (North Korea) != (Logic)

Meanwhile... (1)

girlintraining (1395911) | more than 3 years ago | (#36315686)

Meanwhile, back on the home front, applicants for the US Air Force's Cyber Command are redirected to a website with no working links for which to submit their resume, ask questions, or express their interest in any meaningful way. Those who spend hours on the phone trying to track down a recruiter who actually knows the requirements will eventually be told they don't qualify because of age, their eyesight is too bad, or that a (deceased) member of their family was involved in anti-war protesting fifty years ago, and so they would never qualify for a security clearance. The best of the best of the best... see rules for official details. Some restrictions may apply.

Re:Meanwhile... (2)

gmuslera (3436) | more than 3 years ago | (#36315712)

If those are obstacles for you then you are not qualified.

Re:Meanwhile... (2)

girlintraining (1395911) | more than 3 years ago | (#36316100)

If those are obstacles for you then you are not qualified.

Until recently, being gay made you not qualified. Do you think every barrier to entry is justified, or is it just possible that our military is being inflexible and depriving themselves of talent because of it?

A person's age, sex, sexual orientation, poor eyesight, or even disability isn't a hinderance in this line of work: all that is required is a brain and a way of getting information in and out of it. Every asset the military deprives themselves of because of their ass-backwards recruitment policy is another one that other interests can (and will) take advantage of.

And before you start yammering with the same tired crap about "not being qualified" ... there's ample history and recent evidence to support the notion that terrorists and foreign interests heavily recruit people who fail to meet said qualifications. Oh yeah, and they pay better too.

One last thing: Just remember that China has more honors students than we have students. Can we really afford to be that picky in this theatre?

Re:Meanwhile... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36316390)

But what you fail to realize is when you join a SERVICE you are becoming a member of the profession of arms. There is more too it than just being job qualified, you must also qualify to fight with all of your faculties. On top of that, the service best qualified for this type of action (Air Force) is actively working to kick people out! There is no room for the fat 40 year old with bad eyesight with no value other than experience in the security field. Civilian workforce hasn't given you the experience needed for these specific activities anyway.

Sending some young buck with aptitude and a willingness to learn will significantly outweigh the former option. It only gets better when you realize that they are able to fulfill the duties required of the service on top of their job. I have seen what happens when people who are lazy (and yes, being of the correct age but unfit makes you lazy) in one aspect of their live - they generally do not meet the standards placed upon them in other areas. The system works, but when the hot-shot feels they are above established processes decide they don't need to apply themselves the same as others, _every_ area of a job and mission is affected. This also goes for people set in their ways as many old-timers to similar fields may be. Of those witnessed, the young 'noob' if given any amount of spin-up time more than outpaces the experienced.

If you really want to get involved, and think you can go through a background check without whining about it the whole time, work at the NSA or CIA or other governmental agency that you fancy. I have a feeling that very few possess the drive necessary to enter this field and are merely angry at themselves for this fact.

Re:Meanwhile... (1)

lightknight (213164) | more than 3 years ago | (#36316380)

Of course. The entrance exam is breaking into the relevant server, and adding your name to the list of applicants.

Re:Meanwhile... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36315726)

... applicants for the US Air Force's Cyber Command are redirected to a website with no working links for which to submit their resume, ask questions, or express their interest in any meaningful way ...

That's the point - if you're not good enough to find your way in, you're of no use. ;)

Re:Meanwhile... (1)

lightknight (213164) | more than 3 years ago | (#36316396)

What if you aren't interested in applying, but just want to borrow their servers for the weekend? You know, for a Botnet or something really insane like.BitCoin generators on every server + client I can find on that subnet? If Congress can sell our national forests to foreigners, I call dibs on the NSA super-cluster.

Re:Meanwhile... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36319106)

You're looking in the wrong place. AFCYBER was provisional. You want the joint command USCYBERCOM (of which the AF has a part ... 24th AF being the numbered component).

Thulsa Doom speaks! (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36315696)

My child, you have come to me my son. For who now is your father if it is not me? I am the well spring, from which you flow. When I am gone, you will have never been. What would your world be, without me? My son. -Thulsa Doom
 
Get down on your fucking knees and pray for Thulsa Dooms sweet mercies, you talking maggot! It is only by the divine grace of Thulsa Doom that you are allowed to walk this earth. He is the reason you fear the dark and meanwhile he is the reason you are given the ability to fear in the first place.
 
Thulsa Doom!!!

More stick than carrot (2)

blind biker (1066130) | more than 3 years ago | (#36315698)

If you think the psychopathic dictators in North Korea use carrots to keep expats loyal, you're crazy. Their families are held hostage - to the extreme. These expats know full well that, should they fail to return, their families will be moved to one of many NK concentration camps [bbc.co.uk] (best scenario) or just summarily executed (more likely).

Re:More stick than carrot (2)

cold fjord (826450) | more than 3 years ago | (#36316260)

And remember kids, the places outside the prison camps are the "garden spots" of North Korea [globalsecurity.org] , with a much better night life, and day life, or any life at all, for that matter.

"Lavishing privileges on their families at home" (1)

Nidi62 (1525137) | more than 3 years ago | (#36315704)

So......do they actually let their families have electricity for a few hours a day? Maybe even give them a bit of rice every now and then?

Re:"Lavishing privileges on their families at home (1)

indeterminator (1829904) | more than 3 years ago | (#36317282)

They are not put to a prison camp. If their offspring defects, that privilege is revoked.

Sensational? (1)

Fractal Dice (696349) | more than 3 years ago | (#36315728)

If the Internet is going to be a theater of future conflicts, then isn't it sensible for *all* countries to have some aptitude in the area? Has the US sworn off having any "cyberwarriors" of its own? Or is there really going to be one set of rules for the US and another set of rules for the rest of the world?

Re:Sensational? (1)

emt377 (610337) | more than 3 years ago | (#36315828)

If the Internet is going to be a theater of future conflicts, then isn't it sensible for *all* countries to have some aptitude in the area? Has the US sworn off having any "cyberwarriors" of its own? Or is there really going to be one set of rules for the US and another set of rules for the rest of the world?

All countries have them, at least any first and second world, and those in the third world with the resources. Clearly if you're going to attack a country you want to lead with a disruption of their infrastructure and media. It doesn't matter if you hit a refinery with a cruise missile or shut down its computers - the result is the same, and it'll serve the same purpose.

Re:Sensational? (1)

Wyatt Earp (1029) | more than 3 years ago | (#36316110)

The Second World were Communist Bloc countries, there is only one of those left, Cuba.

Vietnam, Eastern Europe, the People's Republic of China, Mongolia, even Albania have moved on economically and politically.

Let's rephrase this. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36315736)

Republican fearmongering says we need to invade North Korea.

Re:Let's rephrase this. (1)

NFN_NLN (633283) | more than 3 years ago | (#36315850)

Republican fearmongering says we need to invade North Korea.

Don't be silly. North Korea *actually* has nukes. The US has no problem invading people *suspected* of having nukes, but hell if they'll set foot in any place that actually has them. They had plenty of legitimate opportunities to invade North Korea and just shrugged it off. 1) North Korea routinely threatens the South AND the US. 2) They aren't bullshitting - they've actually sunk SK military ships, bombed islands, kidnapped people from the south, counterfeit US currency, etc, etc 3) They openly test above ground nuclear weapons and *long range* missiles in an attempt to put Japan in range WHO IS NOT allowed to have a military (Plus they have the balls to use the word "dong" to name their missile name... Type-of-Dong which would make getting deep-throated by one that much more humiliating) 5) Any threat to Japan is a threat to the US who is in charge of protecting them in exchange for giving up the military.

But none of these compare at all to an OPEC member threatening to sell oil in Euros.

Re:Let's rephrase this. (2)

anagama (611277) | more than 3 years ago | (#36316146)

N. Korea has no oil (*), nor is it in any shipping lanes. It's safe.

Libya: oil exporter
Iraq: oil exporter
Afghanistan: Trans-Afghanistan Pipeline (proposed Natural Gas route)

(*) Well maybe a little -- an estimated 12 million barrels: http://www1.korea-np.co.jp/pk/072nd_issue/98120202.htm [korea-np.co.jp]
For context, the US burns 19.15m barrels per day, so N. Korea's potential reserves amount to about a 15 hour supply for the US. In other words, N. Korea has no oil.

Re:Let's rephrase this. (1)

lightknight (213164) | more than 3 years ago | (#36316420)

We don't know that. We should send some prospectors in there just to be sure. Maybe we will find some gold? I think the US Treasury is going to need some soon...

Re:Let's rephrase this. (2)

bky1701 (979071) | more than 3 years ago | (#36316174)

"WHO IS NOT allowed to have a military (Plus they have the balls to use the word "dong" to name their missile name... Type-of-Dong which would make getting deep-throated by one that much more humiliating) 5) Any threat to Japan is a threat to the US who is in charge of protecting them in exchange for giving up the military."

Totally false. Japan spends almost as much on their military as the United Kingdom. They just don't call it one.

http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/MS.MIL.XPND.GD.ZS?cid=GPD_42 [worldbank.org]

Japan: (1/100)*5068996399491 = 5.07 10^10 UK: 2174529808278*(2.7/100) = 5.87 10^10

By some (possibly more reliable) estimates, it is more: http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/japan/jda.htm [globalsecurity.org]

Re:Let's rephrase this. (1)

anagama (611277) | more than 3 years ago | (#36315866)

Since when has fear mongering been solely a Republican vice? Remember Senator Clinton got right in line behind Bush to start the Iraq fiasco ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtK9AzcU42g [youtube.com] ), and Obama has gotten us into a third war.

The only hope we have is that China will stop lending us money to blow up shit, but neither Democrats nor Republicans have demonstrated any motivation to decelerate our entry into any war possible.

It's North Korea (1)

Danny0109 (2223006) | more than 3 years ago | (#36315854)

If you haven't noticed yet, these people can get really good at anything they set their mind to. They have crazy work ethic, they can work themselves to death. Of course there is not much to do in North Korea other than work and sleep. And having your family hold hostage probably helps too. You do know how they identify the potential hackers? They pick them from geek forums like this.

sardaukar? (1)

e3m4n (947977) | more than 3 years ago | (#36315874)

Sounds like kim jun ill might have done a bit of frank herbert reading. Isn't that how the emperor kept the sardaukar loyal? by telling them that it was a test all along and that they were the best of the best, then lavish perks on them.

"Act of War" (4, Insightful)

savi (142689) | more than 3 years ago | (#36315966)

except when such cyber warfare is directed at Iran by a join Israel/U.S. operation. Then it's just ... uh. Definitely not war.

Re:"Act of War" (1)

Wyatt Earp (1029) | more than 3 years ago | (#36316138)

The US and Iran have been engaged in open and proxy warfare since the US Embassy Hostage Crisis in 1979. Then the Persian Gulf and Operation Preying Mantis while Iran backed Hezbollah and had the Revolutionary Guards fighting the US and France in Lebanon.

Iran and Israel have had openly hostile relations since 1979.

US bombing Iranian naval units, Iran blowing up embassies in Lebanon, Iran arming Hezbollah to attack Israel or Israel committing industrial sabotage against Iran, it all stems from the Islamic Revolution of '78-79

Re:"Act of War" (1)

Chowderbags (847952) | more than 3 years ago | (#36316430)

More or less "cyberwarfare" is espionage. Yes, espionage can be a justification to start a war, but more often than not it'll be a diplomatic incident where everyone adversely affected pretends that they're a doe eye innocent with no spies of their own, and it's really just everyone having a good laugh at country X getting their hand caught in the cookie jar.

Re:"Act of War" (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36316572)

Classify it as an act of war. So what.

This isn't a point of morality. Its a diplomatic and legal statement intended to inform other countries of America's likely response. Iran could declare war in response to Stuxnet if they liked. It just wouldn't be very smart.

Re:"Act of War" (1)

cold fjord (826450) | more than 3 years ago | (#36317624)

"Act of War" except when such cyber warfare is directed at Iran by a join Israel/U.S. operation. Then it's just ... uh. Definitely not war

So, your thinking is what? That poor, peaceful Iran is being picked on? That the mean old US and Israel started a war on blameless Iran? Apart from the fact that you are speculating about the source of Stuxnet, the outrage is purely imaginary. If anything, Iran is lucky things aren't worse for it given its reckless, murderous behavior.

Israel Seizes Cargo Ship Carrying Tons of Iranian Weapons Bound For Hamas in Gaza [liveleak.com]

Hezbollah's stockpile bigger, deadlier [latimes.com]

In the 2006 war, Hezbollah fired thousands of rockets into northern Israel. Most were inaccurate, short-range models, but the attacks killed at least 39 civilians and had a profound psychological effect on Israelis....

Hezbollah now has about 27,000 rockets and missiles, more than double its supply before the 2006 war, Israeli officials say. Acquisitions include Iranian missiles capable of hitting Tel Aviv, they allege.

"We know without a doubt that the international embargo on the transfer of weapons to Hezbollah has been deliberately violated by the governments of Iran and Syria," said Mark Regev, an Israeli government spokesman.

The U.S. government, which has designated Hezbollah a terrorist group, accuses Iran of providing arms, training and millions of dollars. Syria also has emerged as an arms supplier, not just a conduit for Iranian arms, Israeli officials say.

Iran Builds Rockets to Arm Hezbollah, Deter Sanctions (Update2) [bloomberg.com]

August 4, 2006 06:05 EDT
Aug. 4 (Bloomberg) -- Many of the rockets Hezbollah is firing into Israel are made in Iran, demonstrating the Islamic republic's success in copying Chinese and Russian technology to build its own weapons industry.

The Shiite Muslim group's arsenal includes Iranian-built portable Katyusha rockets, Israeli Reserve Brigadier General Yossi Kuperwasser said. Hezbollah struck an Israeli ship on July 14 with an Iranian-made C802 Noor guided missile. The militia also has Iran's Zelzal rocket, with a range of 120 miles, enough to reach Tel Aviv from south Lebanon, said Yaakov Amidror, a retired major general who ran Israel's National Defense College.

List of Palestinian rocket attacks on Israel, 2011 [wikipedia.org]
List of Palestinian rocket attacks on Israel, 2010 [wikipedia.org]
List of Palestinian rocket attacks on Israel, 2009 [wikipedia.org]
List of Palestinian rocket attacks on Israel, 2008 [wikipedia.org]

Iran says can cut energy to Europe, hit enemies (Reuters) [khaleejtimes.com]

28 February 2010
Iran could make European countries suffer by cutting off energy supplies and can target any adversary with its missiles, a senior Iranian military official said on Sunday....

“Iran is standing on 50 percent of the world’s energy and should it so decide Europe will have to spend the winter in cold,” Hossein Salami, deputy commander of the elite Revolutionary Guards, said in a meeting with war veterans and volunteers in Kerman, according to Fars news agency.

“Our missiles are now able to target any spot in which the conspirators are in, and the country is making advances in all fields,” he said.

WikiLeaks: Iran 'obtains North Korea missiles which can strike Europe' [telegraph.co.uk]

Iranian leader decries Obama's missile defense plan [cnn.com]

Iran's supreme leader on Sunday blasted U.S. plans to overhaul the setup for a missile defense shield in Europe, calling the Obama administration's intentions "anti-Iranian," state-run media reported.

Move to bring genocide case against Ahmadinejad as Iran president repeats call to wipe out Israel [guardian.co.uk]

Wednesday 13 December 2006
The outgoing US ambassador to the United Nations, John Bolton, is backing a call for the president of Iran to be charged with inciting genocide because of his speeches advocating the destruction of the state of Israel.....

The call for legal action came as Mr Ahmadinejad repeated his onslaught against Israel at an international gathering of holocaust deniers in Tehran. The president, who has dismissed the murder of six million Jews by the Nazis as a myth told up to 70 visiting speakers that the Israeli state would soon be wiped out.

"Thanks to people's wishes and God's will, the trend for the existence of the Zionist regime is downwards and this is what God has promised and what all nations want," he said.

He was praised by several participants for his "bravery and democratic actions" a source who was present told the Guardian.

The event came under fierce attack abroad. At his monthly Downing Street press conference, Tony Blair condemned the conference as "shocking beyond belief" and singled out the decision to invite David Duke, a former leading Ku Klux Klan member, as proof of Iran's extremism. Meeting Israel's prime minister, Ehud Olmert, in Berlin, the chancellor, Angela Merkel, said Germany rejected the conference and would "act against it with all the means that we have". Franco Frattini, the EU's justice commissioner, denounced it as "an affront to the whole democratic world".

By contrast, Mr Duke praised the event as "a tremendous step forward" and said Mr Ahmadinejad said "sensible things"....

Blair accuses Iran of arms supply [bbc.co.uk]

Tuesday, 18 July 2006, 17:50 GMT 18:50 UK
Tony Blair has accused Iran of supplying weapons to attack UK troops in Iraq, and of giving arms to Hezbollah so it could target Israel.
In a statement, he told MPs it was important to implement a 2004 UN resolution calling for Hezbollah to be disbanded and support for it to end.

State Sponsors: Iran [cfr.org]

The U.S. State Department considers Iran the world's "most active state sponsor of terrorism." U.S. officials say Iran provides funding, weapons, training, and sanctuary to numerous terrorist groups--most notably in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Lebanon--posing a security concern to the international community.

In March 2006, U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said, "Iran has been the country that has been in many ways a kind of central banker for terrorism in important regions like Lebanon through Hezbollah in the Middle East, in the Palestinian Territories, and we have deep concerns about what Iran is doing in the south of Iraq." For these reasons, in October 2007 the United States added Iran's Revolutionary Guard Corps (IRGC) to its list of foreign terrorist organizations, and has continued to link economic sanctions to alleged support for militants. In June 2010, the UN Security Council approved a fourth round of sanctions, expanding on its list of targeted Iranian entities--including members of the IRGC.

- U.S. officials say Iran supported the group behind the 1996 truck bombing of Khobar Towers, a U.S. military residence in Saudi Arabia, which killed nineteen U.S. servicemen.
- Military officials say numerous attacks since 2001 on U.S. and NATO troops in Afghanistan, and coalition forces in Iraq, have been attributed to Iranian-made weapons.
- A set of classified documents leaked by the website WikiLeaks.org in July 2010 reports extensive collaboration between Iran and the Taliban, Afghan warlords, and al-Qaeda, but all the claims have not been corroborated (Guardian).
- Iran has also been blamed for attacks in Balochistan in Pakistan.

What terrorist groups are linked to Iran?
U.S. officials say Iran mostly backs Islamist groups, including the Lebanese Shiite militants of Hezbollah (which Iran helped found in the 1980s) and Palestinian terrorist groups like Hamas, the Palestinian Islamic Jihad, and the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine-General Command.

Beirut Barracks Attack Remembered -- Oct. 23, 1983 Suicide Bombing Killed 241 Americans [cbsnews.com]

Lamberth ruled in May than Iran was responsible for the attack because of its support for Hezbollah. "It is beyond question that Hezbollah and its agents received massive material and technical support from the Iranian government," Lamberth wrote.

Re:"Act of War" (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36318584)

Awwww, poor defenseless little Israel - after all it only has 200+ nukes and first dibs on the best US technology to keep the whole anti-semitic world at bay.
.

War (1)

njhunter (613589) | more than 3 years ago | (#36316108)

We're technically still at war with North Korea, at least they still think we are. We're really going to get them now...

Re:War (2)

gman003 (1693318) | more than 3 years ago | (#36316266)

Actually, the state of war is officially recognized. The Korean War has not yet officially ended - while a cease-fire and an armistice were signed, a peace treaty has not, and neither side has withdrawn their declaration of war. And, as the numerous infiltration tunnels violated Article 1, Paragraphs 7-9 of the Korean Armistice Agreement, and the Yeonpyeong shelling violated Article 2, Paragraph 12, you could argue that even the armistice has been abrogated, and that a full state of war legally exists.

What is a Cyberwarrior? (1)

RiotGear (2216030) | more than 3 years ago | (#36316154)

Cyberwarrior is the most ridiculous piece of psy-op, misinformation the public is bombarded with. A Cyberwarrior is no more a "Warrior" than my tea-cup poodle is a "Guard" dog. We do need skilled computer scientist, information security specialist, cryptologist, and cryptanalyst to fight against those who would stage attacks against freedom loving internet enthusiasts. But "Warriors" they are not. If you don't agree with me, then you don't agree with the dictionary either....I have no love for North Korea but they are only trying to protect themselves from the (US Government and Israel) which the evidence points to them as the aggressors in the Iranian Nuclear Power Plant computer virus...

Re:What is a Cyberwarrior? (1)

sco08y (615665) | more than 3 years ago | (#36316610)

Cyberwarrior is the most ridiculous piece of psy-op, misinformation the public is bombarded with. A Cyberwarrior is no more a "Warrior" than my tea-cup poodle is a "Guard" dog.

My late grandmother actually had a tiny little poodle that successfully drove off a home invader. Not sure if it was quite teacup-sized, but it definitely earned the title guard dog.

We do need skilled computer scientist, information security specialist, cryptologist, and cryptanalyst to fight against those who would stage attacks against freedom loving internet enthusiasts. But "Warriors" they are not. If you don't agree with me, then you don't agree with the dictionary either....I have no love for North Korea but they are only trying to protect themselves from the (US Government and Israel) which the evidence points to them as the aggressors in the Iranian Nuclear Power Plant computer virus...

At least in the Army, the term "warrior" now tends to mean someone who is anything but. After all, everyone who actually does fight has a term for them, I was in the Cavalry, and we're all scouts or cavalry troopers or, sometimes, avatars of awesomeness, the infantry are grunts, infants, special folk, the artillery are arty, gun bunnies or meatrockets.

And the support personnel were cooks, mechanics, riggers, commo, clerks, whatever. Not that life was good back then, or the Army ran particularly well, or anything like that. In fact, there were all kinds of problems, and the commonality was that the solutions looked impressive, made for bilious speeches and no results were expected until that general had moved on to another assignment.

So at some point someone noticed that the Marines were all called Marines (at least twice per sentence, semper fi, Marine, ooh rah!) and decided that obviously something that worked well for a tiny service with a tightly focused mission would work just as well for an incredibly huge organization whose mission includes replacing large portions of an existing government for an unspecified period of time.

I think it was also part of the self-esteem building bullshit that had become vogue in the great circle-jerk of the higher echelons. This all jumped the shark when they decided that everyone should get a black beret to feel special. But before that, they renamed stuff, so Professional Leadership Development Course became Warrior Leaders Course. All the various facilities and ad hoc organizations got Warrior stamped in their name, Warriors' Hall, Warriors' Field, Warrior Platoon, whatever. I didn't realize how widespread it was until I actually worked with pogues for a year. I even debated it, point counterpoint style:

"We go to war, so we're warriors."
"As a fucking cook, and even then all you do is reheat shitty food."
"We get shot at too!"
"That would make you 'targets', not warriors."

You'll also see Soldiers as a generic term if you read publications like Army Times, again capitalized to ape the Marines. Of course, if you know what "soldiering" actually means, that's actually truth in advertising. But calling someone a "warrior" who can barely shoot straight has been happening for at least 10 years now.

LOL (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36316296)

North Korea. Cyberwarriors.

LOL

Not Soviet or Russian... (1)

VortexCortex (1117377) | more than 3 years ago | (#36316404)

In Dictatorship of North Korea : You Hack Government!

And in other news... (1)

purplie (610402) | more than 3 years ago | (#36316778)

Also, North Korea is developing nuclear weapons. This could lead to an escalation of tensions, given that the US military believes that nuclear attacks constitute acts of war.

If NK wants to be a real threat... (1)

matunos (1587263) | more than 3 years ago | (#36316806)

...they should do that with some economists, and maybe try to feed their people.

a little anecdote (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36316926)

I'm a final year undergrad for an IT Security degree, this wouldn't surprise me as I know in my course we have a North Korean quietly studying by himself and he doesn't really talk to anyone else.

War (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36317022)

Of course, the USA can only declare war through an act of Congress. It's written, right there, in the Constitution.

The last time it happened was late in 1941, though. Since then there's been Korea, Vietnam, the invasion of Grenada, Afghanistan, Iraq twice...

Seems they can just ignore the goddamned piece of paper at will.

AC

Since When? (1)

Ventriloquate (551798) | more than 3 years ago | (#36317146)

"This could lead to an escalation in tensions, especially given that the US military believes that cyberattacks from foreign countries constitute acts of war."

*cough CHINA cough*

For We Have no WalMart (1)

SEWilco (27983) | more than 3 years ago | (#36319000)

Of course they have to send computer students to study computers in places where computers exist.
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