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Motorola CEO Blames Open Android Store For Phone Performance Ills

timothy posted more than 2 years ago | from the I-blame-samsung dept.

Android 384

angry tapir writes "Motorola's CEO blamed the open Android app store for performance issues on some phones. Of all the Motorola Android devices that are returned, 70 percent come back because applications affect performance, Sanjay Jha, CEO of Motorola Mobility, said during a webcast presentation at the Bank of America Merrill Lynch Global Technology conference."

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384 comments

lol (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36327282)

kind of like kathleen fent blaming nigger dick for her cunt smelling like shit.

Wow there is a first.. (4, Insightful)

Sassinak (150422) | more than 2 years ago | (#36327290)

A company passing blame on another company for its failings...

Re:Wow there is a first.. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36327326)

wish I could give +1 redundant

Re:Wow there is a first.. (5, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36327342)

They continually fail to address glaring issues with many of their Android products. They are often harsh when dealing with customers over on their support forums (I'm looking at you, Matt!) and they almost never give a straight answer. The whole "I have no new information" spiel is really getting old over there.

Now I understand that many products have their problems. However, Motorola are just stupid when it comes to fixing them.

Re:Wow there is a first.. (1)

teh31337one (1590023) | more than 2 years ago | (#36327714)

Talk is cheap, and I'll wait till HTC actually ship products with unlockable bootloaders. And their locked devices (sensation, flyer etc) most probably won't be unlocked. Much prefer Samsung & LG's attitude. Once you go low enough there is no lock down at al

Re:Wow there is a first.. (0)

teh31337one (1590023) | more than 2 years ago | (#36327722)

Urgh. Slashdot mobile site is an improvement, but still horrible to use in a handheld device. My comment is in the middle of no where :(

He raises a valid concern and offers a solution (4, Informative)

perpenso (1613749) | more than 2 years ago | (#36327366)

If you read the article he does raise valid concerns about poorly performing apps that may degrade the user's experience. He's not merely complaining, he's also suggesting a possible solution:

"Motoblur collects information about customer use of applications and how that use relates to functions like power consumption. With that data, Motorola learns which applications drain power. "We are getting to the place that we should be able to warn you," Jha said. He envisions presenting a notice to users when they launch an application alerting them that using the application will drain 35 percent of the phone's power, for example, he said. The user can then decide to continue or conserve power."

Re:He raises a valid concern and offers a solution (5, Insightful)

Kitkoan (1719118) | more than 2 years ago | (#36327474)

Only problem is, Motoblur is the application that will drain 35 percent of the phone's power and you can't get rid of it. Its sluggish and a power hog.

Re:He raises a valid concern and offers a solution (3, Insightful)

Svartalf (2997) | more than 2 years ago | (#36327544)

How about getting RID of MotoBlur...it was one of the problems causing the performance issues to BEGIN WITH.

Re:He raises a valid concern and offers a solution (2)

GreatBunzinni (642500) | more than 2 years ago | (#36327570)

Well, the thing is that all he has to complain about is their decision to ship a underperforming system. They built their phones, they tested their phones with the OS and applications, they knew that their performance sucks. Complaining that apps force their phones to lag away is exactly like complaining that your computer lags away if you happen to run anything other than a clean desktop environment. The thing is, if you ship a computer which is incapable of handling mundane apps which other phones handle quite well then you cannot blame the apps. The problem is that Motorola's products are crap, not whatever app a user may use.

Re:He raises a valid concern and offers a solution (1)

brainzach (2032950) | more than 2 years ago | (#36327718)

This is a problem that affects all Android phones. People will complain about battery life and it is usually caused by one or two poorly designed apps they downloaded off the market. Quality apps don't have this problem.

Re:Wow there is a first.. (1)

anshulajain (1359933) | more than 2 years ago | (#36327726)

Yeah, the same Android that brought back Motorola from the dead. Rather than blame the awful Motoblur for performance issues, the Android Market is being blamed. Way to go Sanjay Jha...you're a moron in the true sense.

Third-Party apps affect performance? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36327296)

Third-Party apps affect performance?

Shocker.

3rd party apps? (5, Funny)

gslavik (1015381) | more than 2 years ago | (#36327330)

Does he mean things like motoblur?

Motoblur (5, Insightful)

mjwx (966435) | more than 2 years ago | (#36327470)

Does he mean things like motoblur?

Yep, the original Droid/Milestone was lighing fast running 2.1 and 2.2. When moto started to shoehorn in Motoblur they all of a sudden got really slow.

Same with HTC Sense but HTC are at least smart enough to chuck in lots of extra RAM to handle their bloated interface. I've been running Cyanogenmod on my Desire Z since 3 days after I got it and I've been more then pleased with how fast it is, Cyanogenmod uses ADW launcher which has a crapload of features (so much so it suffers from Kitchen Sink-itis) but is still very very fast.

I used to be a fan of Android on Moto, but between locked bootloaders and crappy social network based interfaces that slow everything down have completely changed my opinion on Moto. They are floundering because of bad design decision in using Motoblur, not because of Androids openness.

After HTC and Samsung, I'd rather buy a Huawei phone simply because they used the vanilla interface.

Re:Motoblur (2)

Kitkoan (1719118) | more than 2 years ago | (#36327492)

Might be worth looking into HTC still since they've declared they are going to only be selling unlocked bootloaders on their phones. [slashdot.org] I know when I'm able to get a new android phone cheap again (with my contract) I'll be looking at a HTC since if I don't like what they give me I can just wipe it with a custom rom.

Re:Motoblur (1)

mjwx (966435) | more than 2 years ago | (#36327578)

Might be worth looking into HTC still since they've declared they are going to only be selling unlocked bootloaders on their phones. [slashdot.org] I know when I'm able to get a new android phone cheap again (with my contract) I'll be looking at a HTC since if I don't like what they give me I can just wipe it with a custom rom.

HTC is well supported by Cyanogenmod. The HW is typically good although on my Desire Z the internal speaker is nowhere near as good as a Samsung Galaxy S or Moto Milestone.

Samsung has also not locked the bootloader on the Galaxy S and Galaxy S2 (AFAIK, so don't accept this as gospel).

Re:Motoblur (1)

teh31337one (1590023) | more than 2 years ago | (#36327770)

Galaxy s II bootloader is open.shame the current Gen of HTC devices with already locked bootloads (sensation, flyer) won't be unlocked though. Sent from my Galaxy s ii

Re:Motoblur (1)

selex (551564) | more than 2 years ago | (#36327754)

The new MotoBlur that comes with Gingerbread at least on the Droid X is not as bad as the original MotoBlur that came with Froyo. Its not the best launcher, but its not as bad as it used to be. I like the new app drawer which is why I was happy to find out you can switch the LauncherPro app drawer to the MotoBlur app drawer.

With the Gingerbread and an extended battery I am only hitting 50% per day now instead of having to drop the X in the charger a second time in a day, but I am running numerous widgets on the screen at once. Even with that though Social Networking, News, Quick Contact, com.motorola.photowidget, Motorola Dock Service, and Social Sharing are all still running, and they are all MotoBlur services. None of which I am using. I even went into MotoBlur and removed those widgets from the launcher, and then switched back to LauncherPro. Without rooting the phone I can't remove those services. All of which are running, and all of which are draining my battery. (What really kills my battery is when its searching for a signal since I never get signal at work, but thats my fault for not putting it in airplane mode)

I like the Droid X. The camera is awesome (especially with the new upgrade in Gingerbread), the HDMI output is nice, the screen size is great, and the battery does last me, but the next phone might not be a Motorola for bootloader reason.

Selex

Re:3rd party apps? (3, Interesting)

izomiac (815208) | more than 2 years ago | (#36327546)

Nah, the 195 apps [chadhaney.com] that are preinstalled (hence cannot be removed by design) on the Droid X couldn't possibly be impacting performance. For comparison, a plain AOSP Gingerbread system image has 45 apps. IIRC, the average android user installs fewer than 10 apps, so obviously 150 extra should come with the phone.

To be fair, I'm counting '.apk' files in the /system/app folder. Many of these are blur_facebook, blur_twitter, etc., and not standalone applications. These aren't all listed in the app launcher (only ~50 are), but they do generally autostart via hooks into specific system calls, such as an incoming phone call or entering text into a field. So they do impact performance, and certainly more so than your average game would.

Re:3rd party apps? (3, Interesting)

hedwards (940851) | more than 2 years ago | (#36327782)

I had a Motorola Backflip for a while, I loved the concept, but the large number of apps that they insisted upon installing with the firmware, the ones I couldn't uninstall pretty much killed it for me. On top of that because they opted to use their Motoblur, it meant that had I kept the phone that I would have ended up waiting for them to QA that on top of whatever time it took for Google to release an update.

It being tightly locked down really didn't help anything.

Then again... (0)

WiglyWorm (1139035) | more than 2 years ago | (#36327334)

The openness of Android is a big part of why Android has better marketshare than iOS, so maybe they shouldn't look a gift horse in the mouth.

Re:Then again... (2)

the linux geek (799780) | more than 2 years ago | (#36327348)

What are you basing that on? I would assume that the reason Android has a bigger marketshare than iPhone OS is because it's licensed to many, many manufacturers, whereas iPhone OS is only available on Apple products.

I don't think that has anything to do with it being "open."

Re:Then again... (1)

mjwx (966435) | more than 2 years ago | (#36327394)

What are you basing that on? I would assume that the reason Android has a bigger marketshare than iPhone OS is because it's licensed to many, many manufacturers.

By licensed you mean open sourced. Which pretty much proves the GP's point.

Re:Then again... (1)

Hijacked Public (999535) | more than 2 years ago | (#36327448)

And the open sourcing of Android was accomplished how?

Re:Then again... (0, Flamebait)

SectionTwelve (2147638) | more than 2 years ago | (#36327502)

Let me guess... you deluded yourself into thinking Apple and Steve "The Magic Master" Jobs somehow innovated* open source and Google took advantage of that with Android?

*Apple hasn't innovated anywhere. They've only been copying products and marketing them better than most over the last 30 years.

Re:Then again... (1)

mjwx (966435) | more than 2 years ago | (#36327516)

And the open sourcing of Android was accomplished how?

Tell me I dont have to explain this to you.

The Wikipedia article should explain it (HINT: Android has been open source since it's release).

Re:Then again... (1)

Hijacked Public (999535) | more than 2 years ago | (#36327576)

No please explain, I'm thick.

Do I just download Android from Google and do whatever I want with it?

Re:Then again... (3, Informative)

Kitkoan (1719118) | more than 2 years ago | (#36327622)

Pretty much. You can download the source code for Android here. [android.com]

Re:Then again... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36327680)

The point he was making is that it Android was open sourced by applying an open source *LICENSE* to the code. Without that *LICENSE*, downloading downloading Android from Google and doing "whatever I want with it" would be a copyright violation.

Re:Then again... (1)

mjwx (966435) | more than 2 years ago | (#36327730)

The point he was making is that it Android was open sourced by applying an open source *LICENSE* to the code. Without that *LICENSE*, downloading downloading Android from Google and doing "whatever I want with it" would be a copyright violation.

Dear AC (Hijacked Public). His (your) troll was obvious, he was (you're) trying to obfuscate between "open license" and "license". Having an open license does not make something closed, which was the GGP's attempted point. just because Android is license does not mean it cannot be open.

If I wanted to release my own Android phone on my own hardware, I don't need the OHA's permission to use Android.

Re:Then again... (1)

similar_name (1164087) | more than 2 years ago | (#36327774)

The openness of Android is a big part of why Android has better marketshare than iOS, so maybe they shouldn't look a gift horse in the mouth.

What are you basing that on? I would assume that the reason Android has a bigger marketshare than iPhone OS is because it's licensed to many, many manufacturers, whereas iPhone OS is only available on Apple products.

He was questioning Android's 'openness' being the cause of Androids market share by replying that it was because it was licensed to so many companies. If his point was as you say, then it was a semantically convoluted point.

Re:Then again... (-1, Troll)

mjwx (966435) | more than 2 years ago | (#36327666)

No please explain, I'm thick.

Do I just download Android from Google and do whatever I want with it?

You do know what open source means don't you.

Not my job to think for you sunshine.

Re:Then again... (1)

the linux geek (799780) | more than 2 years ago | (#36327810)

The version the OEM's use is the OHA version, which differs from the open-source (AOSP) tree. They pay money for licenses.

Re:Then again... (1)

exomondo (1725132) | more than 2 years ago | (#36327598)

I would assume that the reason Android has a bigger marketshare than iPhone OS is because it's licensed to many, many manufacturers, whereas iPhone OS is only available on Apple products. I don't think that has anything to do with it being "open."

How do you think it's available to many, many manufacturers? It's by virtue of it being open.

Re:Then again... (1)

jedidiah (1196) | more than 2 years ago | (#36327752)

Who cares WHY it has a bigger market share? Who cares in generally really. The main reason you even have to consider such nonsense is the "winner take all" mindset of the fanboys of proprietary systems.

Apple can ignore me and it's fanboys can try to marginalize me so long as I have a means to escape either of them.

Re:Then again... (1)

kinabrew (1053930) | more than 2 years ago | (#36327664)

I would assume that the reason Android has a bigger marketshare than iPhone OS...

That's a misconception.

Android phones have a bigger percentage of the marketshare of phones than the iPhone has.

But the total number of devices running iOS(iPhone, iPod Touch, iPad, tv is 59% greater than the total number of devices running Android. [comscore.com]

Re:Then again... (1)

Kitkoan (1719118) | more than 2 years ago | (#36327732)

Please re-read the part you quoted:

I would assume that the reason Android has a bigger marketshare than iPhone OS...

It doesn't say anything about the iPod Touch, the iPad, iTv... just the iPhone.

Re:Then again... (1)

Rennt (582550) | more than 2 years ago | (#36327798)

You confused the hell out of me for a sec there - you seem to be arguing water isn't wet.

But I think what you are saying is that consumers don't care from open... That Android only has bigger market share because there are more manufacturers and devices to choose from. This may well be true, but you are putting the cart before the horse.

The reason there are more devices and manufacturers to choose from is because Android is open.

QED Android has a bigger market share because it is open.

Re:Then again... (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36327432)

The people that care about openness are an insignificant share of the market. Android is ahead because of increased hardware choice and cheaper handsets. That's it.

Re:Then again... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36327550)

In every iPhone thread, many people suggest (and get modded to +5) because they claim that Apple is doing well and selling great BECAUSE they only have a few choices and that is what consumers want. Which one is it? Choice is better or worse for sales?

Examples from this week...
http://mobile.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=2200956&cid=36304886 [slashdot.org]
http://mobile.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=2200956&cid=36302600 [slashdot.org]

Re:Then again... (1)

Kitkoan (1719118) | more than 2 years ago | (#36327636)

Choice is better. Every style of product always sells better when there is choice. Doesn't matter if it's smartphones, computers, clothes or even food like hamburgers.

Re:Then again... (1)

Lemmy Caution (8378) | more than 2 years ago | (#36327562)

The openness appeals not so much to the consumers, but to the manufacturers and carriers, who can then offer Android-based products at a wide range of price points.

Re:Then again... (1)

jedidiah (1196) | more than 2 years ago | (#36327766)

I dunno.

You plug in the phone, a file mangler window pops up, you drag and drop some stuff, you unplug the phone.

That all seems remarkably more simple and straightforward than what Apple makes you do.

It's no longer 1999 and you're no longer competiting against the Nomad.

Re:Then again... (2)

Biff Stu (654099) | more than 2 years ago | (#36327458)

I always figured the Android market share was due to AT&T...

Posted from my iPhone

Re:Then again... (1)

Kitkoan (1719118) | more than 2 years ago | (#36327508)

Nope. iPhones are on every carrier here in Canada but they still don't out sell Androids.

Re:Then again... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36327648)

Except Wind, which won't be able to sell them until the iPhone 4GS/5 (N94) with a MDM9200 or MDM9600 radio.
http://www.esphoneblog.com/2011/04/24/t-mobile-3g-working-on-a-prototype-iphone-n94/

iOS has much greater market share (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36327592)

There are more Android PHONES, but iOS runs on iPod Touch and iPad as well. The are many more iOS devices that Android devices. Sigh.

Bloatware (2)

mariasama16 (1895136) | more than 2 years ago | (#36327340)

And how many of those "problem" applications were malware, badly written, or just the bloatware pre-installed on the phone from the carrier?

"Top" needs to be standard on smart phones (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36327346)

Because of the black box nature of smart phone, developers of smart phone applications are never held accountable for the resources their application consume. It should be standard to be able to see the amount of CPU, RAM and network I/O each application is generating so that hogs which cause performance, battery life or network overages can easily be spotted. As far as I can tell, neither Apple, Google or Microsoft has taken seriously exposing this type of data as a standard part of their phone software stack. Hence, we are left in situation similar to when the food industry was not required to put a break down of the nutritional information of the food The smart phone users have apps contributing "fat" and "sugar" into the smart phone's diet without any hard numbers to evaluate that impact.

Re:"Top" needs to be standard on smart phones (1)

Xacid (560407) | more than 2 years ago | (#36327374)

Amen to this. The closer our phones get to computers to more and more we need something like this.

Wrong Direction!!!!!!! (4, Insightful)

SuperKendall (25149) | more than 2 years ago | (#36327498)

"Top" needs to be standard on smart phones

I cannot emphasize strongly enough the horror and despair for humanity I see in this single phrase.

It's like saying back in the caveman days that what we really needed was a better rock to carve . No, we needed to move on from the cave and invent fire and dwellings.

We need to move BEYOND what we have have, what we know. We cannot keep producing computing devices for humanity that require as standard anything like Top. We need to have systems that actually exhibit some of the AI we've been working for decades on, and not have to have every user know what a process is, or indeed manage anything.

Sorry, but our baby cannot stay a baby forever, because a 50-year old baby you still have to treat like a baby is mentally damaged. We have to let computing be usable by everyone, not working fully only for the anointed and requiring mothering because we cannot tear ourselves loose from that model.

Re:Wrong Direction!!!!!!! (4, Insightful)

0123456 (636235) | more than 2 years ago | (#36327556)

We need to move BEYOND what we have have, what we know.

Sure, but that means something better than top, not some dumb-down interface that hides all the useful information.

We need to have systems that actually exhibit some of the AI we've been working for decades on

If we actually had any kind of AI that might make sense. Generally speaking, in my experience when you try to hide the details from users you end up with an interface that's Artificially Stupid, not Artificially Intelligent.

Wrong again (1, Troll)

SuperKendall (25149) | more than 2 years ago | (#36327632)

Sure, but that means something better than top, not some dumb-down interface that hides all the useful information.

There is no need for people to HAVE to view this information. People who want it will always be able to have it, so instead the design needs to be focused on how can a normal person NOT have it and be OK.

If we actually had any kind of AI that might make sense.

Well I don't know if you'd consider it AI or not but we have pretty good expert systems.

It's not about hiding anything from the user. It's making a system in such a way that the components used together do not have a propensity to harm.

Again, users that want or need to see will ALWAYS BE ABLE to do so. Stop designing FOR THEM. They can HELP THEMSELVES.

Re:Wrong again (1)

jedidiah (1196) | more than 2 years ago | (#36327784)

Sure there is a need.

This CEO is whining about apps being resource hogs.

THAT is what top is for: to tell you what the offending party is rather than just randomly b*tch and moan about it and act like nothing can be done.

Top may be too "geeky" for you but something needs to fill it's role.

Something needs to be there to answer the call when the end user asks: "What the h*ll is sucking the life out of this thing? Can I kill it and erase it?".

Re:Wrong Direction!!!!!!! (2)

Hijacked Public (999535) | more than 2 years ago | (#36327642)

I don't think the sort of people who would install resource hungry apps on their phone and then be puzzled enough by the lack of resources to take it back to the store, would benefit from any interface anyone could devise. If anything, phone hardware should be sold more like computer hardware. With memory and processor and storage being prominent in the advertising.

Re:Wrong Direction!!!!!!! (4, Insightful)

MBCook (132727) | more than 2 years ago | (#36327662)

Bingo. Apple is right on this one, you shouldn't need anything like this. The fact that you do says that something is broken.

That was one of their arguments for why multi-tasking took so long on the iPhone, and why it's not true multi-tasking like on a desktop (or Android). They wanted to avoid this exact problem. Of the people I know with Android phones, this is one of the things they complain about. They ship with crapware that can be very difficult to uninstall or just exit so it doesn't keep sucking up your CPU/battery. Just about a page above this comment is one from someone who rooted the phone on day 3 to remove junk and get it to perform smoothly.

Windows Mobile had programs like top because the OS couldn't manage resources well. My Dell Axim x50v (which was WM 5.5, I think) came with a little program pre-installed by Dell to let you quit applications through a tap on a shortcut on the top menu bar. And do you know why? For convenience? No, because it was necessary. There was no other way to quit apps (except digging through settings to find the task manager and force-quitting them). If you didn't stay on top and manage them, programs would use all your CPU or memory, and things would slow down (or not open). It was terrible.

The fact that Apple can do basic tests to make sure your post-to-twitter app doesn't use 100% CPU all the time is a good thing in my book. I realize you can side load things, but I would like to see Google try to do the same. Certainly I think Amazon should. As a consumer using an appliance (which is the way I use my iPhone), I want to be able to buy apps without having to worry about that kind of thing. Ensuring "manners" from apps, that they generally function correctly... that's the kind of thing I want out of my app store. I hope some of the stores out there (Amazon, carriers, etc) decide to do that. It seems it would be in their interest (as the article attests).

Re:"Top" needs to be standard on smart phones (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36327500)

top is one of the few things the Android shell actually does have.

Re:"Top" needs to be standard on smart phones (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36327716)

Google already builds this into Android! (Settings -> About phone -> Battery use)

Re:"Top" needs to be standard on smart phones (1)

brainzach (2032950) | more than 2 years ago | (#36327772)

On android you can see how much memory each process is using and what apps are causing the most battery drain.

Quality developers try to use a few resources as possible because they are held accountable in the market. Users will complain and write negative reviews if an app slows down the phone or drains the battery.

Motoblur (1)

Xacid (560407) | more than 2 years ago | (#36327368)

And what about Motoblur which devours battery life with its constant updating of EVERYTHING?

Flash (0, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36327380)

Flash support was a big mistake. Apple is doing great without it. An old tech thing .. time for it to go.

Re:Flash (1)

Kitkoan (1719118) | more than 2 years ago | (#36327456)

Many Joe AverageUser wants Flash, even if you don't. It was the major issue most of my non-techie friends had with the iPad, it doesn't have flash which many sites they want to see need.

Re:Flash (1)

JackAxe (689361) | more than 2 years ago | (#36327510)

Let me guess, you have an iPhone... Anyways, stop with the FUD. Your parrot-speak is getting old and what you stated really only goes to show your ignorance.

Re:Flash (0)

bmo (77928) | more than 2 years ago | (#36327580)

I have used Flash on nearly every platform it's available on

It's a steaming pile. There are no qualifiers to go with that statement. It is singularly crap. It sucks on desktops, it sucks on laptops, it sucks on pads, and it sucks on mobile.

There is no platform that it does not suck on. I cannot stress this enough.

It doesn't matter how small the bite you take is, it's still a shit sandwich.

Are we clear on this?

--
BMO

Re:Flash (1)

Kitkoan (1719118) | more than 2 years ago | (#36327676)

No, since Joe AverageUser still wants flash. They don't care what you think, they want what they want, and that is flash. Many humor sites use flash, many free game sites use flash, many sites use flash for many things and it doesn't matter how much you don't like it, they public loves it. This is why its still used by so many sites, because it works and the public loves it.

Re:Flash (2)

Daetrin (576516) | more than 2 years ago | (#36327720)

it doesn't matter how much you don't like it, they public loves it. This is why its still used by so many sites, because it works and the public loves it.

Minor correction, i suspect the public probably doesn't give a damn about flash in particular. Website designer love flash. The public just loves being able to access websites, therefore they need to be able to use flash whether they like it or not.

Re:Flash (1)

jedidiah (1196) | more than 2 years ago | (#36327808)

Flash is like Microsoft and how Apple wants to be.

It's something that you can't really avoid. You can be "pretend snooty" all you like. No one really believes you.

Re:Flash (1)

MBCook (132727) | more than 2 years ago | (#36327728)

I have an iPhone and I can tell you it doesn't bother me one bit. I know from experience on my laptop just how big a cpu/power drain Flash usually is (this is usually the developer's fault, not flash it's self, but the effect is the same). It's only been once or twice in the last 2+ years I wanted to do something that required flash, and that was usually playing a video. My family has 3 iPhones and an iPad, and they've never asked me about it.

I can generally divide the Flash content I run across into four categories:

  • Video - shouldn't need flash, now often doesn't thanks to iPhones
  • Games - Most would have interface problems due to the form factor differences. This is the only one I miss a little, for those games I know would work well with touch.
  • Menus/sites - Should be in HTML. I hate flash sites as they often break conventions and are hard to navigate. The small screen would only make this worse.
  • Ads - Enough said.

I know a couple of people with Android phones. Some are diehard Apple haters, and some of them really love their phones. But I don't remember any of them ever mentioning having or using flash. I have been using Flashblock on my computers for a few years and there are only a few times I ever have to load a flash movie.

Would it be nicer to have the option? Maybe. Would the cost to get flash running well on the iPhone have been revenue positive for Apple? I seriously doubt it. At this point, the world has been in "we have to work on the iPhone or we're doomed" mode for at least 2 years. I don't think anyone things the usage of flash is going to go up.

I will note though, as stupid as flash seems on my phone, it does make more sense on a tablet where the larger screen would make interacting with flash sites easier. I still don't think it would be a real problem though.

Re:Flash (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36327646)

Get rid of flash and force people to download an app instead. That way you can download 100000 different apps to access 100000 different sites. How about we get rid of a majority of your computers web browser functionality and we just switch to launching individual apps for each site you want to visit. If that concept is "new tech" then I would rather have the old.

From my understanding of Android (4, Interesting)

w0mprat (1317953) | more than 2 years ago | (#36327400)

From my (basic) understanding of Android and how it's multitasking it works: No.

This is nothing to do with the App store being open, this is more to do with Android App devs no doubt learning to code on a PC and not really getting to grips with coding for a mobile environment how Android multitasks in a unique way. In desktop development power consumption is rarely even thought about.

http://android-developers.blogspot.com/2010/04/multitasking-android-way.html

They need to go with it rather than try to workaround it. Nor at times do they seem to grasp what limited resources and a battery mean and how Google designed around these limitations.

If you encounter an App that behaves poorly, uninstall it, rate it low in the market and harass the developer. That's what the rating system is for.

Often you'll find many alternatives that achieve the same thing - inexplicably one app may hog battery in the background, one may not at all. It's lazy rushed make-a-buck development pure and simple.

Re:From my understanding of Android (1)

varmittang (849469) | more than 2 years ago | (#36327600)

6 in one hand, half a dozen in the other, you are saying the same thing he is saying. That the Apps from the app store are poorly written, take up to many resources, and cause the device to have poor performance. People that get poor performance from a device and the apps they install return the device because they believe it has to be the devices fault, because the programs where made for the phone since they were in the app store for that device. Remember, the normal user are not rational and don't associate the poor performance with the apps, but with the device. These are the same people that have 50 things starting up when they turn on their PC, and then complain about how slow their computer is and they need a new one. Even though their PC is only a year old.

Re:From my understanding of Android (1)

MBCook (132727) | more than 2 years ago | (#36327762)

It does have something to do with the app store being open. I believe that if you tried to submit an application that sucked down too much CPU (such as using 100% at idle) that it would be rejected from Apple's app store. More subtle waste, probably not, but obvious junk is probably caught by their automated testing.

By doing less QA on apps going into the store, Android can have problems like this more easily.

But your right, this is no different from the problems you see everywhere else. I've seen Flash video players do >720p using 10% CPU on my machine, and I've seen them use >80% to play 240p. I've seen elaborate animations work well, and I've seen simple little banners slow everything to a crawl. It's up to developers.

As an end user, I don't want to/shouldn't have to worry about this. And the true-multitasking in Android means I can play a game and when I quit it can launch some background task that kills my battery. This kind of thing can make it hard for an end user (especially one who isn't used to this kind of stuff) to figure out what's causing the problem. Their watch-and-report idea is actually a very good one and a nice way to add value.

Well, I have a Moto Android phone (5, Informative)

toonces33 (841696) | more than 2 years ago | (#36327406)

A Cliq, to be precise. And if I could, I would return the thing, but I only have 6 months to go on the thing and after that I can get another phone. And I can pretty much guarantee that the next phone won't be a Moto phone.
The problem isn't the app store - the problem is that Moto builds crappy phones, and is then unable to provide updates in a timely fashion.

Some of the problems with Moto phones are just that they choose underpowered processors or more limited memory, and if you get too many apps installed the phone just dogs down. There are times that I press something, it takes a good 30 seconds before the phone responds. If I uninstall a few apps, it goes much better.

Motoblur is the 2nd issue I have with those phones. While Moto denies it, I suspect that in part it is the reason why they have such difficulties providing updates to the phones. My wife has a Droid and that doesn't have Blur, and they have no trouble getting updates out the door.

Re:Well, I have a Moto Android phone (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36327478)

The Cliq is just a crappy low-end phone. My experiences with a Droid and Droid X have been much better, though the battery life on all of them has been sub-par.

Re:Well, I have a Moto Android phone (1)

toonces33 (841696) | more than 2 years ago | (#36327596)

That is much clearer to me now, but at the time I got the thing, the store still had the G1, the Cliq, and a Samsung something-or-another I didn't care for very much. It amazed me that they still carried the G1, due to the age, so that was off the table right from the start. And due to an unfortunate laundry accident with my old phone, I was kind of in a rush, so I didn't have a lot of time to research the thing ahead of time, and it didn't occur to me that the T-Mobile store would sell me something that bad.

The main thing I dislike about the Droid is the slide-out keyboard is a piece of junk. The keyboard on the Cliq is far better, actually (one of the few things). My wife uses the touchscreen keyboard, but I really prefer a proper keyboard rather than hunt-and-peck on a virtual keyboard.

But the whole situation with the delayed/cancelled updates is an entirely different issue. Only folks in the US even got the official update to Android 2.1 - Europe, Latin America and Asia are still stuck on Android 1.5. Assuming they haven't rooted and installed their own ROM, or pitched the phone.

Re:Well, I have a Moto Android phone (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36327590)

+1 to Parent. Even their newer phones, like the defy are terrible. My friend bought one as his first smartphone just for the resistant factor, so he doesn't really notice; but when I use it I can really tell.

It seems like Motorola isn't doing some sort of optimisations that other Android handset manufacturers are doing. Even recently I've read reviews comparing the Atrix to handsets from other manufacturers, and even though the Atrix blows the other handsets out of the water on paper (specs-wise), the reviewers noted that the other handsets felt much faster and more fluid.

Returned? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36327420)

Devices returned? So they accept returns instead of resetting the device to stock. Oh no, my Windows PC is slow because I installed a bunch of crap that runs in the background, guess I should return the whole PC.

Give me Stock! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36327438)

It's great that Motoblur will tell them how much battery and resources and app is using. Now how much is 'blur itself using to track all this information *and* phone it home to Moto?

On another note, every friend who has gone to a carrier store to purchase their phone has *always* had a Task Killer already installed, May I humbly suggest that a good place for Moto to start is by getting the Carrier reps to knock that off.

They had the secret to Android success (2)

zizzybaloobah (1021731) | more than 2 years ago | (#36327522)

and have ignored it. The original Droid (which I bought the day it was available, and still use) put Moto on the Android map, and yet they have done everything they can to vary from the things that made this device a huge success: No Motoblur, no locked and/or encrypted bootloaders, and a mostly vanilla Android experience. One need only read most any Android forum to see how many people regret 'upgrading' from the Droid 1 to another Moto device. I know I was originally excited to hear about new Moto Android phones such as the DroidX and Droid Pro, then being supremely underwhelmed with the devices' performance. The hardware was either improved or virtually unchanged, leaving the main difference: Motoblur, and loads of bloatware. Jha should get his own Motoblur house in order before he starts critcizing other apps for degrading the Android experience.

Re:They had the secret to Android success (1)

ArtDent (83554) | more than 2 years ago | (#36327818)

This. A thousand times this.

If I was a Motorola customer or shareholder, I'd be calling for Jha's head. I'm neither, and there are plenty of other manufacturers putting out great Android wares to choose from, so I'm just pointing and laughing.

Goodbye Motorola, we hardly missed ye.

ha (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36327526)

It's a poor mechanic that blames his tools

Re:ha (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36327706)

yet somehow viagra is a profitable industry

sport shoes (-1, Troll)

emilyaaa (2220116) | more than 2 years ago | (#36327574)

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is that why motorola is trying to deceive people? (1)

Dan667 (564390) | more than 2 years ago | (#36327606)

I mean droid or android, there is no way people would confuse those right? Motorola has fallen a long way and it looks like they are not done yet. They may go bankrupt instead of chose to actually compete in the marketplace instead of trying to bully people unfortunate enough to buy their products.

Sounds familiar.. Steve Jobs anyone? (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36327614)

He flat out predicted this and everyone gave him shit for it when he first said it.

Lets see... what else jobs predicted: Android vulnerabilities via apps.. .check
Android performance problems due to apps hogging resources... check

Anything else I missed?

Re:Sounds familiar.. Steve Jobs anyone? (1)

exomondo (1725132) | more than 2 years ago | (#36327712)

Anything else I missed?

There's nothing wrong with antenna, you're just holding it wrong.

Just got an X2, it's not the store (3)

oGMo (379) | more than 2 years ago | (#36327658)

Just got a droid X2. You'd think with half a gig of ram and a 1GHz dual-core chip in there it'd be a little faster than my droid1. Well, it is now, since I rooted it and froze most of the preinstalled Motorola and Verizon crap, replacing it with "open store" alternatives. Before, you wouldn't believe how horrifically bad it was; doing anything from opening an app to merely trying to scroll the screen would cause delays of upwards of 5-10 seconds. Almost returned it myself.

(For others with this phone/problem, nuking the DLNA and BackupAssistant stuff seemed to help the most.)

Re:Just got an X2, it's not the store (1)

teh31337one (1590023) | more than 2 years ago | (#36327748)

You a locked piece of garbage like Droid x2. That's your problem. Sent from my galaxy s ii

I'll take that as true when... (2)

asdf7890 (1518587) | more than 2 years ago | (#36327670)

I'll take that without a large pinch of salt when other manufacturers chime in with similar stats on returns that they think are due to this issue.

Motoblur collects information about customer use of applications and how that use relates to functions like power consumption. With that data, Motorola learns which applications drain power.

I wonder how many people know their phone is reporting this activity back to Motorola. I might have to check what my phone is doing, I'm in a part of the world where cellular data access is neither free nor unlimited (unless you are on an expensive contract, which I am not).

It would actually be interesting to see this information myself. I've just had a mooch around my phone and the "portal" available when connected to a PC and can't see any interface to show such data.

I wonder how much CPU time and battery power the included apps that I can't seem to uninstall and which keep restarting themselves after a while when I kill them with a task manager. I can tell you that the battery life on this Motorola phone has been laughable (quite frankly I consider the battery life specs on the sales information for this phone to be simply fraudulent) since I got it, before any extra apps were added by myself, and adding apps doesn't seem to have made it significantly worse (aside from the wireless tethering tool, but as that keeps the wifi and 3G radios at full tilt when in use I expect that to drain battery power far quicker than normal).

Darn people and their apps! (3, Funny)

whoop (194) | more than 2 years ago | (#36327678)

If you people would just stop using your phone for apps, games, or hell, even calls, you'd clearly see the superior Motorola phones give you no trouble. Why, I've had mine holding down a small stack of papers for well over six months without ever a hiccup!

Sincerely,
  Joe Motorola.

We've been here (3, Insightful)

gadzook33 (740455) | more than 2 years ago | (#36327686)

Shocking, the same third party issues that caused MS so many headaches for so many years also applies to phones. The difference is people can tolerate some complexity on their desktop. Apple figured out the vertical integration thing when it came to phones. People don't want a PC in their hand, they want a well-running appliance. The failure to grasp that will be Android's undoing.

Re:We've been here (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36327820)

I DO want a pc in my hand.

That sound you heard (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36327688)

Was somebody in Cupertino LOL'ing IRL.

Good device made unusable by a bad app... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36327724)

I love my DroidX phone, but recently it became practically unusable because one of the apps I use keeps freezing my phone. Once frozen it takes a few minutes before OS automatically reboots the phone. This happens between 2 and 10 times a day for a 3rd weeks in a row now and had made my previously reliable phone very frustrating to use. I have not yet invested any time in search of application that will help diagnose it (but must do it soon), so I have no idea which of the applications freezes my phone. On the other hand, my wife iPhone4 just keeps working. Who needs an OS that lets all apps in, but requires user to know how to troubleshoot the software on device? How many users can actually troubleshoot it? How has the time? For now I have to suck it up every time my device reboots because I have not had time to fix it.

Awesome part (1)

JimboFBX (1097277) | more than 2 years ago | (#36327826)

The awesome part is that when some joker returns his Atrix because its "too slow", you can turn around it buy it refurbished for half price!

Actually seriously, I just got an atrix not too long ago and from what I've seen the biggest problems have nothing to do with apps in themselves:

Large widgets (in terms of screen real estate) slow down the interface much like a large sprite will slow down your 3d game. Clearly this is caused by double-rendering if not other inefficiencies

Live backgrounds slow things down. Duh. My screen doesn't always turn on immediately when I press the on button to get out of sleep, and I've linked it to my pretty live background.

Really, when I scroll with my finger, FIGURE OUT WHAT I AM DOING BEFORE DOING IT. I cannot believe that that Apple got something as simple as finger scrolling right and yet Android (or maybe motorblur, whichever) is still rough around the edges this late in the game in that I can scroll down a webpage and suddenly have it think I clicked a link that my finger happened to cross over. Same with me tapping an app on the damned motorblur main screen, having it highlight, but not having it launch. I even cranked up the "responsiveness vs. accuracy" setting to full accuracy and this still happened. Even the browsers all color links as visited if you do a scroll starting with the link. And don't get me started with the flash ads for videos that have a pause or full screen button in the corner and yet tapping that button brings me to a web page instead. The firefox app also has some really funky tap functionality where it picks the link thats at the bottom of your finger, not the center of it, and sometimes gets confused if you have multiple links under your finger and won't ever pick the dead center one. Its as if android has no standardized "tap" functionality in their SDK or something.

I do like their neat battery manager that tells me that "Phone Idle" is my #1 drainer when its not my screen... but I have to question if they employed any tricks to help reduce that number (turning the NAND off... partitioning the DRAM, caching it, and turning off most of it... etc). For example, I found the automatic brightness to be too aggressive and too bright most of the time than is necessary. I really shouldn't have to download an app to toggle that on and off to save battery.

Oh yeah, they also disabled more than two fingers on the touch hardware even though the touch hardware supports it.

But its not an apple product, and I like the customization, the ability to watch flash vidoes, the speed (tegra 2!), and other things

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