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Chinese Paper Warns Google May Pay Price For Hacking Claims

Soulskill posted more than 3 years ago | from the i-bet-google-has-a-better-military-than-china dept.

China 165

suraj.sun writes with this excerpt from a Reuters report: "Google has become a 'political tool' vilifying the Chinese government, an official Beijing newspaper said on Monday, warning that the US internet giant's statements about hacking attacks traced to China could hurt its business. The tough warning appeared in the overseas edition of the People's Daily, the leading newspaper of China's ruling Communist Party, indicating that political tensions between the United States and China over Internet security could linger. Last week, Google said it had broken up an effort to steal the passwords of hundreds of Google email account holders, including US government officials, Chinese human rights advocates and journalists. It said the attacks appeared to come from China."

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City Rice with a side of City Rice & Fascism (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36355124)

Google is just going to be hungry for more political oppression in half an hour.

Re:City Rice with a side of City Rice & Fascis (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36355390)

Me Chinese. Me play joke. Me go peepee in Google's coke.

Oh puh-leeze (1)

name_already_taken (540581) | more than 3 years ago | (#36355136)

Somehow I picture the executives at Google, and US State Department officials having a good laugh over this one.

Nobody outside of China believes the type of propaganda crap spewed by Chinese newspapers.

Re:Oh puh-leeze (4, Insightful)

Hatta (162192) | more than 3 years ago | (#36355184)

They don't care if anyone outside China believes it. They are building pretext to block Google entirely.

Re:Oh puh-leeze (3)

AngryDeuce (2205124) | more than 3 years ago | (#36355230)

I'm sure Bing will be more than happy to censor any results they like.

Re:Oh puh-leeze (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36355376)

Yeah, because there is just no way it other countries try to use propaganda against China. Noo, China is bad guys and rest are good and would never do such a thing! You don't even need to research or think about it yourself, just believe us!

Re:Oh puh-leeze (3, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36355450)

Well, the Chinese government *are* bad guys and pretty much everything they do is so much more blatantly egregious than what other governments do that what other governments do gets ignored because the Chinese government's antics steal the spotlight. Fix that and we can start ogling other governments' poor behaviour (of which there is certainly plenty!).

Re:Oh puh-leeze (5, Insightful)

Dutchmaan (442553) | more than 3 years ago | (#36355466)

I'm sorry but China is shady as hell... and no one is claiming that X country is innocent, but come on... China has been at the forefront and behind the scenes of a great number of cyber attacks lately. The words "I think he doth protest too much" comes to mind.

Re:Oh puh-leeze (1)

mijelh (1111411) | more than 3 years ago | (#36356212)

That's both strawman and false dichotomy. Follow your own advice to "think about it yourself" please.

Re:Oh puh-leeze (1)

jon3k (691256) | more than 3 years ago | (#36357854)

No! The Chinese government is the good guys! With outstanding human rights records and basic freedoms!

Good luck with that (1)

Sycraft-fu (314770) | more than 3 years ago | (#36355832)

Not the blocking, they can do that easily. The problem is that China will discover if they go all block happy and shut down external communications services, it'll hurt business. Blocking Google wouldn't hurt Google that much. However it would hurt China's ability to do business with the world.

Re:Good luck with that (3, Interesting)

Hatta (162192) | more than 3 years ago | (#36355978)

They won't block all external communications services. Just the ones that won't filter and spy as the Chinese government wants.

Re:Good luck with that (1)

ScrewMaster (602015) | more than 3 years ago | (#36356348)

They won't block all external communications services. Just the ones that won't filter and spy as the Chinese government wants.

True, but at this point, Google is one of those services that won't kowtow and that China also happens to need. That won't be the case forever, I assume, but for now blocking Google (regardless of Google's stance on censorship and spying) would cause far more damage to China's business and scientific sectors. Google would survive and thrive if China vanished from the face of the Earth tomorrow morning.

Re:Good luck with that (1)

Hatta (162192) | more than 3 years ago | (#36356480)

Why does China need Google? Is there anything Google does that Baidu can't, or won't be able to with a little motivation?

Google would thrive if China disappeared, sure. But if Google were forced out of China, to be replaced by Bing (for exampley), that would put them at a competitive disadvantage, even outside of China.

Re:Good luck with that (2)

ScrewMaster (602015) | more than 3 years ago | (#36357420)

Why does China need Google? Is there anything Google does that Baidu can't, or won't be able to with a little motivation?

Google would thrive if China disappeared, sure. But if Google were forced out of China, to be replaced by Bing (for exampley), that would put them at a competitive disadvantage, even outside of China.

Well, this [wired.com] , for example. And I did say, "won't be the case forever." More to the point, so far as the Chinese citizenry is concerned, is the fact that Google isn't a Chinese operation, and indexes knowledge that Baidu would never be permitted to make available. Google, thanks to Sergey Brin's feelings on the matter, isn't likely to permit itself to be used to implicate Chinese citizens for crimes against the State. That attitude is precisely what this squabble is all about, and is why Bing, for example, isn't being treated the same way.

Re:Good luck with that (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36356898)

Google would survive and thrive if China vanished from the face of the Earth tomorrow morning

Take a look around you. How many items do you see that were made in China?

The problem is inside China ... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36355494)

Somehow I picture the executives at Google, and US State Department officials having a good laugh over this one. Nobody outside of China believes the type of propaganda crap spewed by Chinese newspapers.

The problem is that people "inside" of China will believe this, and this is why folks at Google and the State Department are probably not laughing as hard as you believe.

Re:Oh puh-leeze (2)

bryan1945 (301828) | more than 3 years ago | (#36355804)

Half of China probably doesn't believe it's own propaganda.

Re:Oh puh-leeze (2)

magarity (164372) | more than 3 years ago | (#36356144)

Half of China probably doesn't believe it's own propaganda.

The guy in 1984 didn't believe the propaganda either, but he jumped up and down yelling 'death to Eastasia' with the rest of them.

Re:Oh puh-leeze (1)

DigiShaman (671371) | more than 3 years ago | (#36356588)

Most of the people within the major cities do not. More so the younger generation than the older ones, but even the elder generation folk know when the CCP is politicizing an event that makes Beijing look better than the other cities (the Chinese are very prideful of the cities they live in, much like Americans).

Ironically, most the wealthy are members of the CCP. Yet, they keep towing the party line to maintain perks and protection and a higher ranking of citizenry compared to non-members. PLA members get shit in comparison, which is why the bulk of them are from rural farming communities moved half-way around the country side so to remain de-tached from their fellow country men.

But what I want to know is this. Who or what selected group of individuals are pulling the strings here. I don't believe for a second that it's just political momentum of a post-communist era at hand. There's definitely a smaller group calling all the shots, and I'm willing to bet their hearts (if they have one) are as black and cold as obsidian.

Ahhhh get it right! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36357544)

"they keep towing the party line"

Where do they tow it to? Oh wait you mean toe the line.....

Re:Oh puh-leeze (1)

LifesABeach (234436) | more than 3 years ago | (#36356824)

I don't think the faceless ones at Google, or the State Department are laughing, well, maybe a small grin. But lets look at the extremes that the middle kingdom can do to the U.S. Maybe stop exporting of manufactured goods? Oh dear, what would our quiet factories ever do? How about China no longer "investing" in the U.S.? It's looking like its China that has become the Paper Tiger,(and no apologies to the chairman mao). Of course, I don't know what all the ramifications are of a U.S. economy without help from the middle kingdom, but maybe watching the Irish economy choke after the entrance of Google, maybe the Chinks have a point? But then again 120,000 dead children in the Sichuan shows just how indifferent the middle kingdom is to its own, let alone others.

Google has become a political tool (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36355152)

What took them so long to figure this out?

Re:Google has become a political tool (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36355214)

Your tea is ready....

Can it be true? (1)

AngryDeuce (2205124) | more than 3 years ago | (#36355198)

Is China going to war against Google? Should I enlist in Google's Cyber Army??

Re:Can it be true? (1)

jgagnon (1663075) | more than 3 years ago | (#36355246)

Enlist or you will be drafted. Probably as fodder.

Re:Can it be true? (2)

Dahamma (304068) | more than 3 years ago | (#36356312)

Yes, and the cyber war will be fought via World of Warcraft.

Now we know the real reason China has been forcing prisoners in its labor camps to gold farm...

Re:Can it be true? (1)

filthpickle (1199927) | more than 3 years ago | (#36356806)

No, No....now we know why we put that supercarrier battlegroup in the pacific. Go navy. Thanks again. float it over here......die.

Chinese govt just implicated itself (5, Insightful)

losttoy (558557) | more than 3 years ago | (#36355220)

Read Google's blog post here:
http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2011/06/ensuring-your-information-is-safe.html [blogspot.com]

Nowhere do they point fingers at the Chinese government. They merely pointed out source of the attack was based in a certain Chinese city. It is the Chinese who interpreted that as pointing at the Chinese govt. Why would the Chinese do that unless they are aware of the attack being carried out by their army/govt. They could've just said they will investigate further the origin and trace the attackers. No, instead they went into this defensive spin. Shows the Chinese govt is guilty (al though Google didn't accuse them).

#Lame #Fail.

Re:Chinese govt just implicated itself (1)

hey! (33014) | more than 3 years ago | (#36355396)

Why would the Chinese do that unless they are aware of the attack being carried out by their army/govt.

Well, I'll take a shot at this: Because they are paranoid about keeping up appearances. Remember the little girl who wasn't telegenic enough to sing at the Olympics ceremonies? Paranoia is by definition irrational. Reasonable concern over one's image and sensible steps to protect one's reputation don't count as paranoia.

I'm not saying the government isn't behind what happened. In fact, in a crony-capitalist government ruled by political expediency rather than law, there is a lot of willful turning of blind eyes to dodgy but politically or personally useful things.

Re:Chinese govt just implicated itself (1)

CCarrot (1562079) | more than 3 years ago | (#36356128)

there is a lot of willful turning of blind eyes

Congrats on being chosen for the MMOTD*!

*Mixed Metaphor Of The Day ;)

Re:Chinese govt just implicated itself (1)

hey! (33014) | more than 3 years ago | (#36356334)

I count only one metaphor, and one pleonasm. I would say a "redundant pleonasm" were this not such an irony-deficient world.

Re:Chinese govt just implicated itself (1)

ColdWetDog (752185) | more than 3 years ago | (#36357228)

I count only one metaphor, and one pleonasm. I would say a "redundant pleonasm" were this not such an irony-deficient world.

Congrats on being chosen for the MOWOTD*

pleonasm [wikimedia.org]

Often, pleonasm is understood to mean a word or phrase which is useless, clichéd, or repetitive, but a pleonasm can also be simply an unremarkable use of idiom.

* Most Obtuse Word of the Day

Re:Chinese govt just implicated itself (1)

the eric conspiracy (20178) | more than 3 years ago | (#36357326)

-1 obfuscation

Re:Chinese govt just implicated itself (1)

dunng808 (448849) | more than 3 years ago | (#36356206)

I agree. More than the Chinese government pointing the finger, U.S. news media reported the attacks as coming from the Chinese government. Read past the headlines and the story was that Google named the city, and that is the location of a military school. Americans tend to forget that in China, and most of the world, "government" and "military" are two vastly different entities. The Chinese government is pro-business, and the military hate America. The people do not want this kind of hostility.

Re:Chinese govt just implicated itself (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36357602)

Americans tend to forget that in China, and most of the world, "government" and "military" are two vastly different entities. The Chinese government is pro-business, and the military hate America.

Are you kidding? The Red Army has its fingers in EVERYTHING in China. Practically any business at all has some form of participation by the Red Army. The army is essentially the government arm most involved in business matters. The american military-industrial complex is like an ant-farm compared to the manhattan of the chinese military-industrial complex.

You DO have a point (psychological one) (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36355420)

"The best defense is a GOOD offense" & it appears that the Chinese are reacting "defensively" here.

What GOOGLE's stating? Heh - Doesn't surprise me @ all, not whatsoever:

E.G./I.E.-> I've been filling a custom HOSTS file & my firewall rules tables here since 1997 vs. KNOWN BAD SITES/SERVERS/Hosts-Domain names, & a huge majority of the entries? They come straight out of the "communist block" (mainly/specifically, .ru, .su, cn TLD's).

An unbelievable LARGE majority of the entries ARE from there...

APK

P.S.=> Of the 1,426,755++ entries in my HOSTS file? I'd say a GOOD 30% or more are from those TLD's, & yes, that's partially China... There's little denying "who's doing what" out there!

... apk

Re:You DO have a point (psychological one) (1)

billcopc (196330) | more than 3 years ago | (#36356240)

Custom hosts ? I just get lists of a country's CIDR ranges from guys like http://www.countryipblocks.net/ [countryipblocks.net] . If I'm getting frequently attacked from certain countries, and they're not part of my "target demographic", so to speak, I just block them at the firewall. I know I have no interest in selling to or working with people outside north america and a handful of western european areas, and I'm perfectly content to accept the potential loss of outside business, so I block their SMTP, and serve a different web site to their IP ranges explaining how and why my services aren't available in their area.

I do "layered security", vs. YOUR method (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36356624)

In your point-of-view though? That makes good sense on YOUR part, I won't knock you for it - because it is, "a way" on your end!

(That is, as long as your firewall's not compromised & routers have been shown to have THAT much happen, as well as "system hooking" in firewalls too, that is)...

HOWEVER - As I noted earlier in my init. reply you responded to though?

I do the firewall bit too, but I "layer on" the added benefits of HOSTS files for more of the concept of "layered security" is all...

To each his own, &, @ least you do SOMETHING about it! Many folks, and companies? Don't...

APK

P.S.=> HOSTS files also act in other ways, such as added speed (blocking ad banners for example) &/or RELIABILITY ( + even MORE SPEED) by bypassing possibly compromised DNS servers (or downed ones, or "redirect DNS poisoned" ones)... & more! apk

Re:I do "layered security", vs. YOUR method (1)

jon3k (691256) | more than 3 years ago | (#36357928)

yes, 1.4m deny entries in a host file for the "added speed". makes perfect sense.

Re:You DO have a point (psychological one) (1)

jon3k (691256) | more than 3 years ago | (#36357914)

Maybe this is obvious, but if I wanted to do mass scanning/hacking I would use a botnet of compromised machines outside of the US. Makes it much harder for US authorities to target and shut them down. So how do we know who the actual actor is here?

Re:Chinese govt just implicated itself (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36355456)

Shows the Chinese govt is guilty (al though Google didn't accuse them).

Or has a severe case of parent syndrome. I'd buy that too. The government could be claiming that "No Chinese citizen would do that." Everyone knows that's total bullshit--a country with over 1 billion people is bound to have a few bad guys in it. But still, the government might be taking the accusation as a reflection on themselves, much like a poor parent defend bad children because a bad kid exposes their poor parenting.

Or they're worried that a Chinese person capable of hacking like this shows they are not as in control of the internet as they think they are. Most Chinese citizens are unaware of the depths of the censorship and control. They think it roots out hackers and porn. That someone can hack through it would mean that it is not doing the job it says it is. That makes people question it, and a deeper look will expose that it does a lot more than Chinese people think it does...

Re:Chinese govt just implicated itself (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36355496)

That is a valid admission of guilt to you? Some article in a newspaper?

I see it as a potential misunderstanding or actual proper understanding what kind of spin a lot of media and people will probably put on the story. I prefer to stay with "I don't know what happened yet" myself, leaving judgement for when / if we get actual facts.

Re:Chinese govt just implicated itself (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36355642)

From your link:

"affected what seem to be the personal Gmail accounts of hundreds of users including, among others, senior U.S. government officials, Chinese political activists, officials in several Asian countries (predominantly South Korea), military personnel and journalists"

When you're using weasel words like "what seem to be" and "including, among others", you're carefully saying nothing, but implying a great deal.

It's not as strong as saying that there was a massacre when there wasn't (Tiananmen Square anyone), but it's still pretty blatantly manipulative.

Re:Chinese govt just implicated itself (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36356474)

There was a massacre. It happened all around Tianamen Square, just not inside the square itself. This has been known to be the case since it happened, the recent "revelation" was counting on vague memories thinking this was new information, when it's not.

It's the United States' Internet - deroute .cn (2, Insightful)

TwineLogic (1679802) | more than 3 years ago | (#36355292)

We built it, and among its many purposes were to further the freedoms of the United States of America.

To what ends are China using the Internet we built? Attacking the email accounts of our senior government officials? Sabotaging the power grid? Probing the network of Lockheed Martin?

How do Chinese packets get to the US, and why should they continue to reach us? It is time -- past time -- that the US cut off all Internet routing from China, and establishes treaties with China's neighbors prohibiting them from routing Chinese packets to the US.

Re:It's the United States' Internet - deroute .cn (1)

AngryDeuce (2205124) | more than 3 years ago | (#36355338)

Agreed. If they don't want an open internet they can create their own network. Nobody is stopping them from having ChinaNET.

Quite! (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36355400)

Maybe the rest of the world can de-route the US due to the actions of the MPAA and RIAA.

Re:Quite! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36355480)

Are you so daft that you believe the MPAA/RIAA are uniquely US problems?

Re:Quite! (0)

afidel (530433) | more than 3 years ago | (#36355512)

Uh, the RIAA and MPAA haven't taken any action outside the US (well other than asking Congress and the executive branch to push for more draconian international treaties and for the state department to put countries that don't cave on their naughty list). The multinationals that are the members of those organizations have certainly had their local lobbying arms do similar things to the RIAA and MPAA in other countries but the MPAA and RIAA are US only.

Re:Quite! (1)

afidel (530433) | more than 3 years ago | (#36355900)

Wow, since when do factual statements get modded down on slashdot?

Re:Quite! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36356190)

-1, done listening to you

(people think that choice exists)

Re:Quite! (1)

fnj (64210) | more than 3 years ago | (#36356246)

Quite often actually.

Re:Quite! (1)

the eric conspiracy (20178) | more than 3 years ago | (#36357306)

It's a sign that you are doing something right. I am particularly proud of posts that get moderated both up and down several times.

Re:Quite! (1)

ScrewMaster (602015) | more than 3 years ago | (#36356382)

Wow, since when do factual statements get modded down on slashdot?

Lots of people disagree with facts. It makes them appear irrational to the rest of us, but hey.

Re:It's the United States' Internet - deroute .cn (3, Insightful)

Bloodwine77 (913355) | more than 3 years ago | (#36355896)

I would never punish the people of China for the actions of their government.

If we cut them off from the internet, we only hurt the regular Chinese civilian who will find themselves cut off from outside information and opposing points of view.

Re:It's the United States' Internet - deroute .cn (1)

TwineLogic (1679802) | more than 3 years ago | (#36356238)

If we don't cut them off, they're on a path to stealing our military secrets and shutting down our power plants. That would kill people. Opposing points of view are nice and all, but I'd like to not die at the remote commands of small men.

Re:It's the United States' Internet - deroute .cn (2)

nastro (32421) | more than 3 years ago | (#36356328)

Since when are power plant master controls accessible over the internet? Oops! I mean to click "PAY BILL!" Sorry eastern seaboard!

Re:It's the United States' Internet - deroute .cn (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36356506)

Please. If you want to be upset with someone, be upset with the idiot who PUT those sensitive networks onto the internet, in direct violation of good network design practices, and likely military security guidelines.

Re:It's the United States' Internet - deroute .cn (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36356116)

>We built it, and among its many purposes were to further the freedoms of the United States of America.

yes, please please please cut the USA off from the rest of the world. Then the rest of us wont have to keep reading about Sarah Palin or right wing religious nutjobs, and you can all go polish your guns in peace.

Re:It's the United States' Internet - deroute .cn (1)

ScrewMaster (602015) | more than 3 years ago | (#36356426)

>We built it, and among its many purposes were to further the freedoms of the United States of America.

yes, please please please cut the USA off from the rest of the world. Then the rest of us wont have to keep reading about Sarah Palin or right wing religious nutjobs, and you can all go polish your guns in peace.

Ignorant, bigoted comments like that make me want to shut your country off. Most Americans wouldn't even know how to hit anything with a firearm, much less want to own one, and Sarah Palin isn't exactly "popular". Indeed, if anything her presence as McCain's running mate cost him any possibility of winning the Presidency. So there's a certain subset of us that can't actually think, I agree, but I think you'll find that's true anywhere. You, for instance.

Re:It's the United States' Internet - deroute .cn (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36356920)

Yeah, Japan? It's American calling, you busy? Oh well, this will only take a moment. You know that emerging superpower next to you?

Yeah, that one. I need you to stop routing their internet traffic.

No, I'm not kidding. Yeah. Yeah. Uh-huh. Right.

Jay baby, don't get me wrong. That whole "reconciling lifetimes of animosity and racial distrust"? I get that. We kinda have the same thing going between us and France. But you know. France! Hahah.

Seriously though, ina-Chay needs to get erouted-Day. And it's going to happen. Russia, India, Korea? They're all on board. What? No I haven't talked to them yet, why would I? All I've gotta say is It's America Calling and they'll bend over backwards, you know that Jay! But I called you first, because I respect your opinion.

So you on the A-team or what?

WHAT? I don't think you realize what you're getting yourself into here. You think I can't deroute you too?

Oh, set up your own Internet huh? Oh yeah I'm sure that'll work real great pal. Who's going to pay for your unregulated frontier of pirated movies and software when they could be surfing our corporation-friendly community of DRM, air-tight IP laws and unfounded takedown notices?

Jay? Just sleep on it, alright my man? Remember, you owe me.

Re:It's the United States' Internet - deroute .cn (1)

koxkoxkox (879667) | more than 3 years ago | (#36357872)

China is not using the Internet you built, everyone is using an Internet where both the US and China are present. To remove that is the shortest path to an open war as Internet is the best way for each country to understand each other and communicate with each other. There is still the problem of language, which means most Chinese netizens never go to foreign websites anyway, but most of the communications between foreigners and Chinese are on-line nowadays.

Do you really want to stop all economic trade ? All cultural exchanges ? Do you want most foreigners to leave China ?

State-level adversaries: your security nightmare (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36355304)

Well, well. In crypto and information security threat analysis, there is a usual level above which you have to bring in the REALLY BIG guns: state-level adversaries, where you have to accept that the attackers are going to be very very skilled, very very determined, and have access to > US$ 1M to attack you. When your threat analysis shows you'll have such adversaries, you usually either give up, or go after a way to get a few million dollars per year to defend against them AND use that money very very wisely.

I'd like to see the typical US-centric internet service provider survive THAT. You want to have people running around like crazy headless chickens? Do a crippling attack on twitter, facebook, maybe a few others. The blow to the morale will be very painful, long-lasting, and it will certainly cause a lot of service disruption. Which is pathetic in itself, but that's a matter for some other slashdot story.

There is no need to attack the key infrastructure that is extremely well protected (like the DNS root servers), or not nearly as resilient infrastructure that would cause immediate and swift retaliation from everybody else (BGP4 hijacks).

Google wouldn't survive it for long, either. So far it looks like they're dealing with the end-terms of an introductory school class on cracking that someone is teaching deep in China. It might or might not be indirectly state-sponsored, but it certainly isn't a serious high-value attack by the Chinese military. They are a lot better than that.

Chinese paper? (2)

gfreeman (456642) | more than 3 years ago | (#36355320)

Google scissors cuts Chinese paper. Ha.

Re:Chinese paper? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36355428)

Google scissors cuts Chinese paper. Ha.

Chinese respond with stone face

Re:Chinese paper? (1)

O-Deka-K (1520371) | more than 3 years ago | (#36356258)

Spock vaporizes stone.

How big of a loss will a Google blacklist in china (1)

Joe_Dragon (2206452) | more than 3 years ago | (#36355324)

How big of a loss will a Google blacklist in china as that may high on list of what Google stands to lose over this.

Re:How big of a loss will a Google blacklist in ch (1)

AngryDeuce (2205124) | more than 3 years ago | (#36355380)

I don't think that's their main concern. China has already been beating their heads over this and other things lately. They can't keep acquiescing forever. Hell, if I were on the board I'd be worried about China nationalizing all of their holdings. What's stopping them? They've been daring the West to go to war for 30 years.

Re:How big of a loss will a Google blacklist in ch (2)

hedwards (940851) | more than 3 years ago | (#36355522)

The reason is that they don't know how. At this point they can't even feed themselves, and that's relatively straightforward compared with building and maintaining their own national intranet. I'm sure there are plenty of folks in China that are capable of doing it, I just don't think they know how to actually undertake something of that magnitude in the current climate over there.

Why China can't go isolaitonist (2)

Caerdwyn (829058) | more than 3 years ago | (#36357290)

China has some very serious external dependencies. Iron, coal (the high-grade stuff needed for coking steel, they have plenty of sulfur-laden crap-coal domestically), OIL, export markets for cash (remember, the yuan is not a full participant in international financial systems; they do their external trade mostly in dollars, somewhat in Euros).

The iron and coal comes largely from Australia. Look at recent power politics being played between Australia and China over Chinese attempts to buy majority ownership in Australian mining companies; when Australia blocked those sales, the Chinese retaliated by jailing visiting Australian mining company executives as "spies" [time.com] . That incident didn't last long, but it shows the Chinese feeling of vulnerability and the willingness to play hardball to address that. The oil comes from all over the world. Almost all of it travels via sea. And the number one naval power in the world, by an overwhelming margin? The United States. Look at recent Chinese military efforts to develop a blue-water navy, to secure external naval ports in China-friendly host nations (Venezuela, Pakistan), and to seize the disputed Paracel and Spratley Islands, which have billions of barrels of suspected oil reserves.

Then recall the economic event which Japan used as a reason to attack the United States in 1941: the American and British decision to deny oil to Japan due to their "activities" in Japan. Everyone involved has knows this is something that can get out of hand.

No one to blame but yourselves... (2)

Jibekn (1975348) | more than 3 years ago | (#36355404)

With the Great Firewall, I have a hard time believing that an attack originating from a Chinese IP was not government backed.

Re:No one to blame but yourselves... (1)

ScrewMaster (602015) | more than 3 years ago | (#36356458)

With the Great Firewall, I have a hard time believing that an attack originating from a Chinese IP was not government backed.

Depends. If you think that the Chinese government is interested in playing nice with the rest of the world, and would concern themselves over an American company (that they already dislike) being attacked by some Chinese third-party and would therefore block said attack ... well.

Re:No one to blame but yourselves... (1)

Caerdwyn (829058) | more than 3 years ago | (#36357478)

+1 Insightful.

Having the attack originate from the Chinese government itself is not quite the same as willfully turning a blind eye to pro-China activists or for-profit criminals. However, that behavior... knowingly harboring hostiles and giving them a free pass to attack outside entities... landed the Taliban a lot of trouble. We, the US, certainly aren't going to lob cruise missiles into Beijing just because someone there is trying to penetrate Google, but neither does either Google or the US have any duty to let it pass unchallenged. Host countries do have at least some responsibility for the activity of those it hosts.

tool (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36355438)

I dunno about Google per se, but Eric "I'm a total douchebag" Schmidt appears besides the word "tool" in every major English dictionary.

Re:tool (1)

ScrewMaster (602015) | more than 3 years ago | (#36356486)

I dunno about Google per se, but Eric "I'm a total douchebag" Schmidt appears besides the word "tool" in every major English dictionary.

He's not actually the CEO [dailymail.co.uk] anymore, you know.

Shoes fit (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36355578)

well if the shoe fits. you should wear it...

or stop it before Obama tells you to leave your country...

The People's Daily (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36355608)

The People's Daily is the Administration's favorite paper.

I thought Google was going to... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36355636)

I thought Google was going to take their bat and ball and go home... oh, right, they backed down because they didn't want to lose such a big market.

I know this is kind of wishful thinking on my part, but I sure wish these continued shenanigans on the part of the Chinese government would lead to some big international players deciding that the potential gains aren't worth jumping through all the hoops and playing nice when all China seems to do is screw 'em over every chance they get.

Re:I thought Google was going to... (1)

ScrewMaster (602015) | more than 3 years ago | (#36356524)

I thought Google was going to take their bat and ball and go home... oh, right, they backed down because they didn't want to lose such a big market.

I know this is kind of wishful thinking on my part, but I sure wish these continued shenanigans on the part of the Chinese government would lead to some big international players deciding that the potential gains aren't worth jumping through all the hoops and playing nice when all China seems to do is screw 'em over every chance they get.

Never happen, at least not until things get much, much worse than they are now. China has managed to make too many foreign countries (like, say, the United States) dependent upon China's manufacturing and certain key raw materials. That gives them a lot of leverage. Funny, a lot of people complain about the United States' behavior on the world scene (not without reason, I'll be the first to admit) but China is, I believe, posing a much bigger problem. Long term, we are going to regret not having taken a harder line, not taken steps to preserve our economic independence.

sound slike (1)

mjwalshe (1680392) | more than 3 years ago | (#36355648)

Sep Blatters style has fans in china too.

Cold war? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36355750)

Is there any doubt that China is in a cold war? They hate the west and want to control the world. Right now, they do not like their business to be spoken about. This is a war that will likely turn hot UNLESS chaos take over in CHina.

The good news is that China is suffering high inflation from the command economy and their violating many treaties. This is forcing China to make some major changes. Sadly, that is also part of what is causing riots there. Shortly, it appears that multiple bubbles are bursting now. However, if that is not true, then we will likely see a return of the proxy wars (iran, north korea, burma, and likely venezuela are gearing up with help from china).

this article (1)

nimbius (983462) | more than 3 years ago | (#36355788)

smacks of the fluent anticommunist rhetoric that only americans have managed to drum to a fever pitch. maybe china is right, maybe theyre wrong; it changes nothing. hacking happens for numerous reasons both political and apolitical in the worlds largest internet corporations. Yet, stories about china and their malevolent, evil red hackers abound on slashdot for no other reason than the majority of us are from a generation fed nothing but delta force commando movies and virulent anticommunist propaganda designed to confirm the myth that communists are some unspeakable form of evil and hate the american way of life.

for something constructive, how about we report on a technical analysis or countermeasures google is taking in general to combat hacking against their marketing empire masquerading as an email service? I could care less about governments, be they communist or capitalist and their ensuing newspapers.

Re:this article (1)

fnj (64210) | more than 3 years ago | (#36356296)

Jeeze; overreaction much? Google merely reported in what city of what part of the world the attack appeared to originate. How does that bear on what google does or doesn't think of the Chinese government?

Oh, and some of the rest of us DO care about both government and mega corporations, because both of them have vast potential to harm our lives.

Chinese journalists represents Chinese government? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36355862)

Are we sure these are the views of the Chinese government? Or just the journalists working for the government controlled newspaper?

Re:Chinese journalists represents Chinese governme (1)

WidgetGuy (1233314) | more than 3 years ago | (#36356270)

Are we sure these are the views of the Chinese government? Or just the journalists working for the government controlled newspaper?

Six if one. Half-dozen of another. If you are a journalist for a Chinese government-backed newspaper, it's probably not a good idea to disagree with that government's views too often or too loudly. Indeed, just the fact that they hired you means you are probably not likely to disagree with their views using their newspaper (radio/tv, etc.).

Re:Chinese journalists represents Chinese governme (1)

Caerdwyn (829058) | more than 3 years ago | (#36357738)

One important thing to remember: the "Chinese government" is not monolithic. Its various components often act in defiance of each other, much moreso than in Western nations.

The Chinese civilian government is not the same entity as the Chinese Communist Party, which is not the same entity as the Chinese military. There have been numerous examples of this. One prime example was the incident [wikimedia.org] in which a US recon aircraft, operating in international airspace, was buzzed by Chinese fighter jets... and one of them collided with the recon aircraft, crippling it (and killing the fighter pilot). The US aircraft was forced to land at the nearest airport, which was Chinese. The Chinese civilian government did not want to cause an incident by entering the aircraft (the interior of an aircraft is sovereign territory of the nation in which it is registered, in the same manner and law as the deck of a ship at sea). They agreed to return the aircraft and crew; at the time, WTO membership was being considered for China. The Chinese military disagreed, claiming the landing was illegal (even though the aircraft had broadcast numerous distress signals, and ICAO treaties to which China is signatory allow any aircraft in an emergency to land at any airport without prior authorization... never mind that the emergency had been caused by the actions of the Chinese military...) and in full defiance of the civilian government imprisoned the crew and disassembled the plane to learn its capabilities. Later, the crew were released, and the plane returned in neatly boxed pieces.

There is also frequently conflict between local governments, which are largely corruption-funded (land seizures in which farmlands are seized and a pittance paid for them, then sold by the local government to developers at enormous profit, operation of product-counterfeiting factories, etc.) and the national government, which wants it people to not have cause for protests and which wants to minimize external economic conflicts. National laws are passed, but are not enforced by local authorities, and appeals to the national government go unheeded.

Reaching a deal with "China" doesn't mean much, as its component pieces frequently ignore each other and the agreements the other Chinese entities have reached. Perhaps a deal will be reached between the Chinese civilian government and the US government calling for curbing Internet-based intrusions, but that is meaningless to the Chinese military, which will do as it sees fit regardless. This is a reality which everyone doing business in China eventually figures out; reaching a deal with the big boys in Beijing is just the start of the process, not the end, and appeals to Beijing when other entities reneg on the agreement will get you little.

Puppet Companies? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36356154)

Dear China, we are not you. Our companies are not merely puppet extensions of our government (well unless its an oil company). This is a classic pot calling the kettle black scenario (or finding the beam in another's eye for the biblical among us). Google has nothing to gain by accusing you so shut up.

Re:Puppet Companies? (1)

Trilkin (2042026) | more than 3 years ago | (#36356350)

It's the other way around here.

very few comments (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36356222)

maybe y'all know somethin'?

The Ultimate Chinese 'Firewall'? (1)

Kiralan (765796) | more than 3 years ago | (#36356482)

I have to wonder, sometimes, if China is building up to closing off their internets to the outside world entirely, or getting the rest of the 'internet community' to do it for them, by acting so irrationally?

Re:The Ultimate Chinese 'Firewall'? (1)

ScrewMaster (602015) | more than 3 years ago | (#36356552)

I have to wonder, sometimes, if China is building up to closing off their internets to the outside world entirely, or getting the rest of the 'internet community' to do it for them, by acting so irrationally?

They can't do that and maintain the economic relationships that are currently so important to them. The Great Firewall is, when you get right down to it, an attempt to have their cake and eat it too ... they want to allow the international traffic that they consider beneficial, and block everything else.

In practice, that's not so easy to do.

Let the Chinese deny it all they want... (1)

boggin4fun (1422043) | more than 3 years ago | (#36356694)

I hope China denies everything that they are ever accused of, for a looooonnnng time to come. If the corporations of the USA had as much balls as they have removed from the US government, then one day they should start telling China how it is. Won't ever happen, but if you can't prove China actually did it, then treat them like they didn't do it. Either the Chinese government is full of shit, or they really are as incompetent is they say at securing the Chinese Internet infrastructure. Either way, they need to be dealt with accordingly. I dont' know of a single company who would keep an employee if they couldn't tell if the employee is lying to their face or just flat out incompetent as it gets.

If they can't play nice... (1)

rbrander (73222) | more than 3 years ago | (#36357058)

...we shouldn't let them play at all.

Can we just build a second "Great Firewall" on our side from theirs and not let them OUT? I know a lot of our firms want badly to go there and make money, but the rest of the Internet is at risk from their crap, all of us.

death to android? (1)

ChunderDownunder (709234) | more than 3 years ago | (#36357110)

at least where i live, the consumer electronics market has recently been flooded with cheap Chinese android phones and tablets. Even major telcos have started rebranding these things - taiwanese and korean household names just can't compete at such margins.

Were the Chinese govt to issue a blanket ban on all things Googly, efforts might be directed towards other projects. A windows8 clone could be on the cards. China has a MIPS cpu with x86 emu. Partner that with LinuxUnifiedKernel and a dash of moonlight and monotouch - hey presto, you've just outpriced windows-on-atom.

Riiiight (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36357578)

When about 98% of the random port scans or anything else my router/firewall sees as an intrusion attempt doesn't come from an IP in china, then i might start to believe they don't condone or outright encourage it. Every so often i get an IP from like the ukraine, otherwise its pretty much all china IP's

Well...China's right on this one (1)

DNS-and-BIND (461968) | more than 3 years ago | (#36357644)

It's hard to disagree - Google is indeed anti-China. Vilifying the Chinese government is either corporate policy, or the individual policy of Google employees. Either way, it's difficult to tell which is which, and Google resources are used either way.

Maybe you heard about the "Jasmine" revolution in China. What a joke. The only people for it...didn't live in China. You wouldn't know that from reading Google sources. The Chinese people are quite good at spotting media lies, having grown up on a steady diet of outrageous leftist propaganda in newspapers since the Revolution. China has made it clear in the last few years that the glory days are over and anyone doing business in China must get in line like everyone else and play according to the rules. Yes, China does have laws, and they function surprisingly well once you know how to use them. Google wants to sit in China, make billions, and lend a helping hand to anyone wanting to overthrow the government. Can there be any surprise that China reacts this way, especially when they're correct?

Re:Well...China's right on this one (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36357930)

It's hard to disagree - Google is indeed anti-China.

How?

Vilifying the Chinese government is either corporate policy, or the individual policy of Google employees. Either way, it's difficult to tell which is which, and Google resources are used either way.

Citation needed. Stating true facts is not vilifying.

Lets try it on another country. The US invaded Iraq. Based on what we now know, it is very unlikely that the stated reasons for invading were true (Nuclear, chemical, and Biological weapons have already been produced at known sites). Is that statement "anti-US"?

Maybe you heard about the "Jasmine" revolution in China.

No, I had not.

What a joke. The only people for it...didn't live in China. You wouldn't know that from reading Google sources.

Again, what on earth are you talking about? Show me any google source that says anything about a "Jasmine revolution". Google searches that turn up pages written by others obviously do not count. Google didn't create other people's content.

Google wants to sit in China, make billions, and lend a helping hand to anyone wanting to overthrow the government.

What has google done to help overthrow the Chinese government? They followed the internet content laws for years. At some point they decided that they did not want to censor search results, and asked if the law could be changed. When the Chinese government said "no", they turned off search for the .cn domain. At all times they complied with the law.

Can there be any surprise that China reacts this way, especially when they're correct?

I am not surprised by China's having and enforcing laws. I am surprised that China thinks a company that chooses to leave rather than stay and comply with laws is trying to overthrow it. It would be ilegal for me to sell fireworks in the next state over. When I choose not to sell fireworks there, and sell them in another state, is it reasonable to conclude I am trying to overthrow the government of Pensilvania?

Google is dead in China (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36357656)

Google is dead in China. Period. In China, if your business doesn't have good relation with gov, you lose for sure. The question for Google is if Google wants to be the God or just doing business. Either or choice, simple as that. To be the God, get out form China. I don't get what is argument here.

Hot Air (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36358040)

Why is the chinese communist party such a bunch of blustering, bullshit artist fuckwits.

Does it go with the job??

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