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Synaptic Dropped From Ubuntu 11.10

timothy posted more than 2 years ago | from the that-does-not-sound-like-an-upgrade dept.

Ubuntu 360

An anonymous reader links to a story at Techie Buzz according to which (quoting): "When Canonical started developing the Ubuntu Software Center, I knew that a time will come when it will completely replace Synaptic. The Software Center is a noob-friendly replacement for Synaptic where users can discover new applications more easily. Unexpectedly, Canonical has decided that it is time for the Software Center to replace Synaptic as well. So, in the next daily build of Ubuntu 11.10, Synaptic will no longer be installed by default. The Ubuntu Software Center still lacks many important features that are present in Synaptic."

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360 comments

...sigh... 'Ubuntu' (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36547852)

What's up with the purple bass clef?

Goodbye Ubuntu (0, Troll)

aBaldrich (1692238) | more than 2 years ago | (#36547882)

I could stand Unity, but this is too much.

Re:Goodbye Ubuntu (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36547944)

Why? You don't have to use Unity and you'll still be able to install Synaptic even after they replace it.

Trust me. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36547980)

I do NOT use Unity.

Re:Trust me. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36548366)

I noticed that you still didn't actually answer the question. In fact you posted anonymously just to post that, even though you've already been modded troll.

Karma really is precious to some losers, isn't it?

Re:Trust me. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36548906)

LOL...nope, I'm just too lazy to log in.

You're right, you don't have to use Unity or Software Center. Or whatever their next thing is that they want to come out with for the Noobs next.

And sooner or later, someone is going to realize that they can fork Ubuntu, remove Unity, remove Software Center and I'll flock it it then.

(If I had spare time, I'd do it now)

Re:Goodbye Ubuntu (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36547962)

Don't be gay, you can still install it with apt-get.

Re:Goodbye Ubuntu (2)

Threni (635302) | more than 2 years ago | (#36548010)

Dude, nobody cares what OS you use. If configuring your OS is so painful that you want to go and use a different OS (which either doesn't let you configure it as easily, or which comes with a slightly different selection of applications, then I think you should follow your dream.

Re:Goodbye Ubuntu (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36548070)

I could stand Unity, but this is too much.

Seconded....and I couldn't stand Unity

Install (4, Insightful)

Jaysyn (203771) | more than 2 years ago | (#36547892)

As long as you can install it from the Software Center, I don't see a problem. Did they need the space for something else on the ISO?

Re:Install (3, Insightful)

drb226 (1938360) | more than 2 years ago | (#36548078)

Ironic but true. Just like MS preinstalling only IE. As long as you can use it to get Firefox or Chrome or whatever, then no big deal.

Re:Install (5, Informative)

leamanc (961376) | more than 2 years ago | (#36548128)

No, they didn't need the space. It has been Canonical's plan for a while to drop Synaptic and Update Manager (and any other GUI apps that are front ends to the various apt tools) and roll everything into Software Center.

It's been on their roadmap for a while, and I was surprised that Synaptic made it into 11.04. I am also surprised that Update Manager is hanging around.

This is all in the interest of average-Joe users who don't need to know the differences between Synaptic and Software Center, or how they overlap with each other, or with Update Manager. Long-time users or power users can go install Synaptic from the repos if they like, or use apt or dpkg at the command line. Me personally, I always update with 'sudo apt-get update' on the command line because I find it faster than Update Manager. But Grandma doesn't need to do that; software installation and updating should be done all in one place for her.

Re:Install (1)

Inner_Child (946194) | more than 2 years ago | (#36548758)

Actually they did need the space: Deja Dup was just added as an included backup package. So they may have planned to drop it for quite some time, but they're at least replacing it with something useful.

And of course, as everyone and their dog points out, Synaptic is only an apt-get away if one really needs it.

Re:Install (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36549034)

apt-get update would be faster since it only updates the repos. I bet you'll find if you include apt-get dist-upgrade it takes about the same amount of time.

Re:Install (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36548962)

This is part of the 'We Say So' thinking, driving many of the Ubuntu Faithful away.

They are restricting to 'their' standards, that which you can load. (Don't get me wrong, most of Linux has crappy and worthless standards for installing programs in various and sundry distributions. The only thing worse, in Linux, is the gawdawful documentation...)

I have found that many of the things I use, and have for years, will not install in 11.04... among other reasons, many standard system files have new names, locations, or were done away with.

Common tweaks to 'speed up the internet' used for years, are not as easily installed in 11.04, AND they have not been incorporated in the slow as whale turds climbing Everest distro (Yes... I don't like 11.04... esta es grande suckamundo)

The intent of Ubuntu is to become Microsoft. The reason most used Ubuntu, was to get away from same.

PS: If you like 11.04... and it works for you... I have nothing against you, or your using it... I don't like it, and it didn't near to my standards.... ( I tried variations, (Mint (sheesh (:-( , and two others, all having the core problems I don't like 11.04 for)

Your opinion is yours. Mine is similar to the reason so many have changed what they are using, and Ubuntu took a big hit in user count. see article linked below)

( http://www.techeye.net/software/ubuntu-sliding-in-popularity?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+techeye+(Tech+Eye) [techeye.net] )

Ooh (1, Funny)

hansraj (458504) | more than 2 years ago | (#36547900)

The Debian users are going to be pissed..

apt-get and aptitude users won't (2)

G3ckoG33k (647276) | more than 2 years ago | (#36547948)

apt-get and aptitude users won't as they don't know how to use synaptic; at least I don't.

Re:apt-get and aptitude users won't (1)

hansraj (458504) | more than 2 years ago | (#36548226)

I was talking about the debian logo with the story. Apologies for not putting the tag. You must be a hit at parties too.

Re:apt-get and aptitude users won't (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36548500)

I was talking about the debian logo with the story. Apologies for not putting the tag. You must be a hit at parties too.

... says the guy making linux jokes.

Shocking... (2, Informative)

fuzzyfuzzyfungus (1223518) | more than 2 years ago | (#36547912)

So. First there is dpkg. Upon dpkg stands APT, for your greater ease and convenience. Upon APT stands synaptic, for your GUI-based package management needs.

Yeah, I'm just not really surprised that somebody might attempt to replace the easy, graphical, user-friendly tool at the end of this particular chain with one that they believe is easier, more user-friendly, or whatever. The tool being deprecated essentially filled the same niche, and the whole lot rests upon the same fundamental architecture.

Re:Shocking... (1)

h4rr4r (612664) | more than 2 years ago | (#36547972)

I thought those tools used aptitude, not apt directly. Am I wrong?

Re:Shocking... (3, Informative)

fuzzyfuzzyfungus (1223518) | more than 2 years ago | (#36548084)

My understanding is that all three, synaptic, USC, and aptitude, are apt frontends, with aptitude being the only one that(by default, I think it is an option now) uses ncurses rather than GTK.

Re:Shocking... (1)

h4rr4r (612664) | more than 2 years ago | (#36548112)

I know aptitude uses apt, but I thought software center used aptitude which uses apt.

I could be wrong. I am now off to find out via google.

Re:Shocking... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36548570)

aptitude isn't even installed by default anymore. It's one of the first things I grab on a reinstall.

By default (2)

Superken7 (893292) | more than 2 years ago | (#36547930)

I think its a good decision. The public for which Ubuntu is intended has no use whatsoever for Synaptic. Other users are an apt-get away from it, and I think thats just fine.

Disclaimer: I never liked synaptic, mainly because for me its interface rendered it totally unuseful because it was hideous and not really well designed, plus it was easier for me to just apt-get.
I still use apt-get because its faster, but I think anyone can just pick up the software center and use it, unlike synaptic which I think is very confusing for noobs or even newcomers which are familiar with apt tools.

Re:By default (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36548022)

What if they remove apt-get next?

Re:By default (1)

h4rr4r (612664) | more than 2 years ago | (#36548052)

Then the software center would not work anymore. What the fuck do you think it uses to download and install packages?

The software center like most linux applications does things "The Right Way", with the GUI just calling command line apps, which use standard libraries and system tools all the way down.

Re:By default (0)

JustNiz (692889) | more than 2 years ago | (#36548100)

>> What the fuck do you think it uses to download and install packages?

I'm guessing it uses apt-get, which != synaptic

Re:By default (1)

h4rr4r (612664) | more than 2 years ago | (#36548146)

He said, "What if they remove apt-get" so synaptic has got jack and shit to do with it.

Re:By default (1)

Lunix Nutcase (1092239) | more than 2 years ago | (#36548150)

That was entirely his point. Did you even bother to read the post that was being responded to?

What if they remove apt-get next?

Re:By default (2)

turing_m (1030530) | more than 2 years ago | (#36548436)

First they came for synaptic,
and I didn't speak out because I did not use synaptic.

Then they came for apt-get,
and I didn't speak out because I did not use apt-get.

Then they came for bash,
and I didn't speak out because I did not use bash.

Then they came for me,
and I paid them off through the convenient and intuitive Ubuntu Software Center.

Re:By default (3, Insightful)

Chris Burke (6130) | more than 2 years ago | (#36548412)

Disclaimer: I never liked synaptic, mainly because for me its interface rendered it totally unuseful because it was hideous and not really well designed, plus it was easier for me to just apt-get.
I still use apt-get because its faster, but I think anyone can just pick up the software center and use it, unlike synaptic which I think is very confusing for noobs or even newcomers which are familiar with apt tools.

Right. I like synaptic for finding packages when I don't know their names because I find it easier to browse and conduct iterative searches than apt-cache search in a terminal. I don't see why it should be confusing for anyone familiar with the ins and outs of apt, but it's still just a basic gui wrapper around those tools.

It is not something that Joe Non-Linux-Lover can just sit down and use. I know; I have a friend who is a complete computer novice and is using Ubuntu. He manages just fine, but he doesn't go anywhere near Synaptic. Update Manager is the only way he, you know, manages updates. But when he needs something new on his machine, I have to walk him through step-by-step on using Synaptic over the phone.

Hopefully Software Center will be something he can actually use on his own.

Synaptic isn't it. Despite being, from my perspective, the "noob" way of interfacing with apt. I sometimes like doing things the 'noob' way, but hey, I'll still be able to!

I can't think of a reason to complain. I mean, if I can accept that Emacs doesn't come with a default install (which is much more important to me than a gui apt front-end), then I can handle this. I can't understand the whining. :P

So long as aptitude is still there I don't care (1)

h4rr4r (612664) | more than 2 years ago | (#36547932)

Does anyone really use synaptic instead of the software center for a GUI view?
I normally stick to aptitude, but have used the software center some and am just not sure what losing synaptic would harm. Anything that is only found there is likely software no GUI user will really ever need.

Re:So long as aptitude is still there I don't care (1, Insightful)

Superken7 (893292) | more than 2 years ago | (#36548066)

Exactly. For downloading and managing software, any user will have a far better experience by using Software Center. Synaptic probably features some more things (I don't know what, but regular user's won't care).

More romantic/nostalgic users that really need advanced(?) features and don't want command line tools but still want a very badly designed UI, can still apt-get synaptic. I don't think this is a big deal.

Re:So long as aptitude is still there I don't care (1)

h4rr4r (612664) | more than 2 years ago | (#36548232)

Was synaptic around long enough for anyone to get nostalgic about it?

No big deal (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36547934)

As long as it can still be installed easily, it shouldn't be a big problem.

Re:No big deal (5, Insightful)

MightyMartian (840721) | more than 2 years ago | (#36548000)

Or, alternatively, you can just install Debian. I've pretty much abandoned Ubuntu at this point.

Re:No big deal (2, Insightful)

npsimons (32752) | more than 2 years ago | (#36548476)

Or, alternatively, you can just install Debian. I've pretty much abandoned Ubuntu at this point.

Seconded. I only ran Ubuntu because it's what came with my system76 laptop; after it started having issues and crashing randomly(!), I backed up my files, wiped it and installed a fresh version of Debian (also wanted to do that from the start since Ubuntu didn't have encrypted drives out of the box). Surprise! My laptop no longer randomly crashes or locks up. I'm guessing it was the proprietary, binary only drivers, but what's weird is that I'm sure I'm running at least one binary blob under Debian that is probably identical to Ubuntu (the wireless driver). Oh well; if you Ubuntu users like teh shiny, that's fine by me. As long as I get to play with my 8 DVDs of science/engineering/sw dev packages, I'll be happy :)

Re:No big deal (0, Offtopic)

MightyMartian (840721) | more than 2 years ago | (#36548836)

Wow, some brainless fucktard rated my comment offtopic? I could understand Overrated, or hell, maybe even Flamebait, but Offtopic? How do people who have less functioning neurons than a pile of cat shit get mod points?

Not a big deal (4, Informative)

Annirak (181684) | more than 2 years ago | (#36547940)

If you want it, you've got it.

$ sudo apt-get install synaptic

Done.

Re:Not a big deal (0)

mschoolbus (627182) | more than 2 years ago | (#36548050)

These new releases are sucking more and more to install.

Ubuntu is beginning to feel like LFS project for me to config a new install..

Re:Not a big deal (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36548344)

Something

Continuous Dumming Down (1)

theNAM666 (179776) | more than 2 years ago | (#36548862)

>If you want it, you've got it.
>$ sudo apt-get install synaptic

No. The reality and the point is that each new generation won't know about it, but will use the new shiny default "tool." Synaptic use will thus go down.

Equally, good software enforces best practices. While the dream of an Ubuntu Desktop is one thing, lowering the complexity of the software installation process lowers the intelligence bar for using *nix, which in the end, lowers the chance that the users will ever get as far as #, much less #sudo apt-get.

Re:Not a big deal (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36549008)

Absolutely right!! That feature alone convinced me to switch to linux.

Again (0)

Jorl17 (1716772) | more than 2 years ago | (#36547942)

When they started doing this kind of fascist crap I just moved to Gentoo.

Fell in love with it the first day[1].

[1]Let's call it a week, as it was a while before it was fully installed and configured!

Re:Again (4, Funny)

h4rr4r (612664) | more than 2 years ago | (#36548024)

Fascist?
So you think comparing a change default GUI for package management is comparable to a political ideology that believes in the organic state, the merger of corporate power and law and in the philosophy of sacrificing any and all subjects for the glory of the state?

Re:Again (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36548628)

Yeah, you sound like a Gentoo user. Vapid, ignorant and waiting for his desktop to compile.

lolBuntu (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36548006)

Making it harder by making it simpler.

Features? yes, Important Features? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36548012)

not so much. At least, not for the average user.

But... it was so easy... and people liked it... (-1, Troll)

gavron (1300111) | more than 2 years ago | (#36548044)

I loved it when Ubuntu was the Desktop king. All I had to do was show my friends Ubuntu and they loved it.

Now... Unity (lol, it sure unites... um... yeah ubuntu haters) and no Synapses (oh sorry Synaptic).

Brainless and unified stupidity.

Color me gone.

E
P.S. Mark, I know you read /. You killed the goose. Spend your golden eggs wisely. Say hi to Jim. He's the only one who doesn't think you're a rich jerk making knee jerk micromanagement jerk decisions.

Re:But... it was so easy... and people liked it... (1)

h4rr4r (612664) | more than 2 years ago | (#36548090)

So uninstall Unity or just use what ever window manager you used before and apt-get synaptic.

Defaults are for noobs.

Re:But... it was so easy... and people liked it... (0)

gavron (1300111) | more than 2 years ago | (#36548222)

Defaults are for people who expect things to work out of the box.

That's why we have cool expressions like Plug'N'Play, Out Of The Box, and Default.

Having to change things is what we call "a tinkerer's dream" or "Hacker's toolbox."

Sure, you can do it.

But it's a barrier to adoption.

Don't hit "REPLY". That's the newb way. View the source, figure out the link, and go use CURL. That's not the newb way.

E

Re:But... it was so easy... and people liked it... (1)

h4rr4r (612664) | more than 2 years ago | (#36548270)

Things do work out of the box, so those people will not be disappointed at all. They are just not to your preference.
This is not breaking anything, only changing the default.

So, install it manually? (2)

gweihir (88907) | more than 2 years ago | (#36548060)

Honestly, what is installed by default is the noob-selection, so a noob-grade packet manager is perfectly adequate. As long as you can "apt-get install" the other packet managers, where is the problem?

Re:So, install it manually? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36548130)

You must have missed the memo about how you're supposed to hate Ubuntu because it's actually becoming somewhat popular. If something's popular, you can't like it to be indie and unique.

Re:So, install it manually? (1)

gweihir (88907) | more than 2 years ago | (#36549042)

Ah, I have no problem in that regard. I also hate this newfangled KDE and GNOME stuff (and what Ubuntu does at the moment). FVWM is for real men! Still using a variant of the config of my first SunOS account some 20 years back.

Re:So, install it manually? (3, Informative)

X10 (186866) | more than 2 years ago | (#36548290)

Didn't Heinrich Heine say something like "where they make important features optional, tomorrow they'll remove them altogether" ?

Re:So, install it manually? (1)

evolveit (999158) | more than 2 years ago | (#36548580)

Noob-body knows..the trouble you'll see....Noob-body knows, till a package goes jez3$%#$!#

As long as Apt is left alone (4, Interesting)

Bloodwine77 (913355) | more than 2 years ago | (#36548082)

Honestly I don't use either Synaptic or the Software Center. I do it all on the command-line using apt-cache and apt-get.

So far I can work around all of Canonical's crazy decisions. I forced myself to quit using Gnome 2.32 (aka Ubuntu Classic) and use Xfce instead to prepare for 11.10. I have to say that I have gotten used to Xfce and really like it.

I really don't feel like migrating my home boxes from Ubuntu unless I absolutely have to do so. The day Ubuntu prevents me from working around their craziness is the day I finally jump ship.

Re:As long as Apt is left alone (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36548776)

But then why use Ubuntu at all and not Debian, which is like Ubuntu without the craziness included in the first place?

Does Ubuntu Ever Stop Changing? (2)

BJ_Covert_Action (1499847) | more than 2 years ago | (#36548110)

I started using Ubuntu about 3 years ago with 8.04. At one point, I upgraded to 9.04. Now I am living comfortable on 10.04. Across those three years and three editions I have heard Ubuntu talk about changing it's primary display configuration engine (X/Xorg to Wayland), it's default browser (Firefox to Chrome), its network managment utility (I'll admit, this one needed fixing), and a host of other tweaks. Now Ubuntu wants to ditch Synaptic for the Ubuntu Software Center.

I get that software moves fast, and buggy software needs to be fixed and replaced with less-buggy software. But wholesale gutting of some of the fundamental portions of an OS (as seen from the user side) every 6 months to a year is a little extreme. What was wrong with Synaptic that it needs replacing? I like it. It seems pretty sraightforward and functional.I don't mean to gripe, but does Canonical really need to replace utilities that its users have gotten used to when the original utilities worked equally well (Pidjin to Empathy? etc.).

Yeah, yeah, I can just install all of the old legacy sofware that I like, but it just seems so odd to uproot basic default utilities so regularly.

Re:Does Ubuntu Ever Stop Changing? (1)

Lunix Nutcase (1092239) | more than 2 years ago | (#36548166)

What was wrong with Synaptic that it needs replacing?

The clunky GUI?

Re:Does Ubuntu Ever Stop Changing? (1)

BJ_Covert_Action (1499847) | more than 2 years ago | (#36548900)

Honestly, I have no idea what you are talking about. It seems about as straightforward as any other piece of software I've ever used. Hell, it's more straightforward than a good amount of software I've used.

Re:Does Ubuntu Ever Stop Changing? (1)

thegarbz (1787294) | more than 2 years ago | (#36548894)

Ubuntu is on a faster development cycle than a lot of other platforms. Does that mean that they shouldn't make changes between versions? I mean all you gripes tend to affect only new users who have never used the software before. You said yourself you've been using it for 3 years, so what's so difficult with typing "apt-get install firefox", or "apt-get install synaptic"?

If you go out and buy a windows PC tell me the first thing you don't do is get rid of the bloatware and replace internet explorer with your browser of choice. They aren't making these changes to force YOU, they are making changes in the interest of the the people who haven't used a computer. They are trying to be a userfriendly distro, and they are doing a damn good job. Full distro upgrades are not automatic so introducing a change every 6 months only affects users once support is completely cut for an older distro.

What's wrong with synaptic? Well start at the top, it's name! Go get your sister and sit her down in front of your computer, start synaptic for her (since she won't have a clue that's what the package manager is called), and then tell her to install new CD authoring software. Then you'll see what's wrong with it. It's faults are nothing that affects you or I, but then Ubuntu isn't really targeted at us either is it?

The Road Ubuntu is on... (2)

JustNiz (692889) | more than 2 years ago | (#36548194)

The excuse given for dropping Synaptic is to make space on the CD, but I remember reading somewhere fairly trustworthy that 11.04 would be the last release as a CD ISO, and the next release (11.10) would be a DVD iso.

Continuing to require Ubuntu to only be released as a CD-sized ISO is a backward step IMHO. At least also provide a DVD image. They've already pushed the size limit of the ISO so much that you can't even use conventional 650mb CDRs or even 80 minute CD/RWs, you specifically need an 80-minute CDR.

These days CDR has been practically obsoleted by DVD+/-R(W) and writeable blu-ray. I wish Ubuntu would make the jump. I personally find it very inconvenient to have to keep a stock of 80 minute blank CDRs around just for ubuntu releases. It feels as bad as having to keep floppy disks around. Everything else I do I use blank DVDs or blu-rays for.

It seems to me a more likely reason for dropping Synaptic is that the marketing minds behind Ubuntu are gradually eliminating support for those pesky power users. If true this is the same massively broken thinking that makes Windows such a pain in the ass to use for anyone trying to do anything remotely technical. I mean what the F*** are they thinking with that horribly inefficient unity interface?

Having the power to efficiently and directly do what I need to with as few keystrokes/clicks as possible, and avoiding being forced to use a series of dumbed-down and limited tools that automatically assume you're ignorant and stupid is why I chose to use Linux over Windows in the first place. Unfortunately the road Ubuntu is on seems to be remarkably similar to Microsoft in assuming users can't possibly know enough to be trusted with a powerful tool.

Any more dumbing down of Ubuntu and I for one will be dropping it.

Re:The Road Ubuntu is on... (2)

DemonGenius (2247652) | more than 2 years ago | (#36548380)

This "road" Ubuntu is on is getting too bumpy for me too. Right now I find myself stuck on 10.10 and not wanting to go anywhere. Maverick is a very solid release compared to the others and loathe having to "upgrade" to some crappy interface that Ubuntu forces on me by default. One of my biggest gripes of 11.04 is that they steal the use of the super (Windows home) key for the Unity main menu, making my Super+Space combo useless for Gnome Do and making keyboard shortcuts useless for other applications that use the super key. Removing Synaptic is the last straw, even if I can simply apt it back. When Canonical halts support for 10.10, I'll probably give Fedora or Linux Mint a go.

Fortunately, the good thing about roads is that they can be forked.

Re:The Road Ubuntu is on... (1)

cr_nucleus (518205) | more than 2 years ago | (#36548400)

These days CDR has been practically obsoleted by DVD+/-R(W) and writeable blu-ray. I wish Ubuntu would make the jump. I personally find it very inconvenient to have to keep a stock of 80 minute blank CDRs around just for ubuntu releases.

Save yourself some pain man, just install from a USB key.

Re:The Road Ubuntu is on... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36548488)

You do realize you can burn CD isos to DVDs, right?

Re:The Road Ubuntu is on... (1)

Lifyre (960576) | more than 2 years ago | (#36548546)

I liked Ubuntu and have used it since they're second or third release. Unfortunately they've moved in a different direction from what I would like and with GNOME seemingly following suit I have started exploring the other options out there. I have a fairly short list of requirements (apt and not RHEL based). It really seems that I keep coming back to Ubuntu or a flavor there of. I'm not a huge KDE fan but I'm starting to realize that the parts I don't like are minor additions that are easily replaced. I personally find their networking and package management defaults lacking.

My conclusion has been that Ubuntu is still my default install of choice, I just unfortunately have to "fix" it, no matter what flavor I choose.

Re:The Road Ubuntu is on... (3, Informative)

DragonWriter (970822) | more than 2 years ago | (#36548632)

Continuing to require Ubuntu to only be released as a CD-sized ISO is a backward step IMHO. At least also provide a DVD image.

Ubuntu provides a number of alternative images besides the normal desktop install CD image, including a DVD image, and has for several years.

It seems to me a more likely reason for dropping Synaptic is that the marketing minds behind Ubuntu are gradually eliminating support for those pesky power users.

Synaptic has been replaced by the Ubuntu Software Center as the primary package management UI for Ubuntu for a while; the decision not to include it on the CD is a change with little actual effect, especially on power users, who can presumably figure out how to install something that is in the repositories but not on the CD. If they really don't like USC, they can do it through the command line, since the command line tools aren't being taken out of the CD, or even the base install.

Any more dumbing down of Ubuntu and I for one will be dropping it.

Ubuntu is, overtly, intended to be, first and foremost, Linux for casual mass-market users, and the default install (and the packages available on the default install media) reflect that. Now, Ubuntu continues to support other users with packages available in the repositories and on alternate install media (and in alternate distributions in the Ubuntu family; e.g., Ubuntu Server is, naturally, not intended for casual mass-market users), but complaining that the default Ubuntu install and default install media are exactly what Ubuntu markets itself as is, well, somewhat pointless.

Re:The Road Ubuntu is on... (1)

Plekto (1018050) | more than 2 years ago | (#36548746)

Wait... People still use basic Ubuntu and not one of the vastly improved versions of it like Mint? And, yes, the standard package for Mint is on a DVD. It gives them tons of space for things most users want (like codecs and drivers and so on) and dead-simple means to make a copy, since DVDs are essentially the new CDs. CDs are getting hard to find, actually, as of late, since you can't even buy a CD-only drive any more. NewEgg as an example, doesn't sell a single CD only reader or burner. It's 100% DVD or Blu-Ray now.

I personally recommend Mint because for the average user, it's a whole lot easier to actually set up and use. And a lot of that is that they aren't trying to stuff it into such a painfully small space. (IIRC , it's close to 900mb with everything added)

Re:The Road Ubuntu is on... (1)

gaelfx (1111115) | more than 2 years ago | (#36548788)

Frankly, I feel that limiting it to optical media sizes is wholly unnecessary, given that USB disks are so ubiquitous and sp much more useful in general. They could even tier it to different sizes for the different spins, like a 2GB image for the alternate, 8GB for the DVD version, etc. The last time I ever actually made a CD for Ubuntu was like 4 years ago, and once I realized that I didn't need a CD for it, I never looked back. As I think about it more, it seems like the CD/DVD method is just a way to try to keep media with Ubuntu on it around, like a marketing gimmick or something like that. I'm not saying they should totally eliminate the CDs, but it would be nice if they offered versions that were more suitable for those of us (and I believe we are many) that simply don't use that medium any more.

Re:The Road Ubuntu is on... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36548826)

Unity is incredibly efficient. All of its major functions are bound on the keyboard, space is used efficiently (both by having the global menu bar and the vertical dock), the graphics work just fine in the release and do not crash, you have an omni bar to both search for files and execute applications, and the top tray is not littered with inconsistent application icons.

I do not believe you that you have used Unity at all, and since I'm not trying to be a /. power user I have no problem saying this: I think most people who are upset by these changes 1) are not actually hampered at all and 2) just hate change. If you're such a power user that all of the features above aren't enough for you, why not use Arch? It's what I use, and it's amazing.

Re:Same road as always (1)

thegarbz (1787294) | more than 2 years ago | (#36548910)

Any more dumbing down of Ubuntu and I for one will be dropping it.

If you're worried about dumbing down then you shouldn't have ever been using Ubuntu in the first place.

Re:The Road Ubuntu is on... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36549024)

Ubuntu is available on DVD as well as CD - check out the difference between cdimage.ubuntu.com and releases.ubuntu.com. OK, it is a little ironic that the DVD images are on cdimage, and the DVD is mainly about having extra language packs. Brasero will burn a CD image to a DVD anyway, so there really is no need to keep a stack of CDRs anyway.

A power user would have a package list of all the software they use, so that building a new machine just means installing the OS, then the updates, then the package list. The GIMP was removed from the base install a while ago, but any power user would be installing their own selection of plugins and modules and wouldn't be concerned about whether the limited basic GIMP packages were in the base OS image. A power user might also use something like remastersys if they wanted a CD or DVD image with their own selection of software on it.

While synaptic remains in the main repository, it is neither dropped nor unsupported, it is merely not on the base install CD. I'm wondering if it is your idea of what a power user is that may be a bit dumbed down.

Linux Mint Debian (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36548216)

Its the future, I've seen it. In fact I'm typing this on it.

Seriously, Synaptic might not be that useful for some people but when I first came to Linux, it saved my life a few times.

I didn't know enough to be comfortable using apt-get at the time. It eases the learning curve.

Re:Linux Mint Debian (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36548532)

I really like the Linux Mint project. But honestly, Linux Mint Debian Edition is a cesspool of broken dependencies. Good luck when you go around tweaking your system.

Jumped The Shark... (1)

LVSlushdat (854194) | more than 2 years ago | (#36548322)

As much as I love Ubuntu, I get the feeling that Canonical has "jumped the shark".. First going to Unity, which IMO sucks majorly, and now dropping Synaptic.. Even if its still available, if its not the default package manager, the development of it will *eventually* stop..

Re:Jumped The Shark... (1)

Chris Burke (6130) | more than 2 years ago | (#36548478)

As someone who uses Synaptic, all I can say is... And?

Oh noes, I'll either have to see if the new GUI app suits my needs, or resort to the command line utilities that I was already familiar with. Or Aptitude. Whichever.

Re:Jumped The Shark... (1)

Inner_Child (946194) | more than 2 years ago | (#36548996)

Two things that you don't seem to realize:
1) Development on Synaptic seems to have stopped already, or at least slowed way down. http://www.nongnu.org/synaptic/ [nongnu.org] gives the last update as January 2009. However, I believe Debian has adopted it and maintains it. It hasn't changed enough to make a difference in that timeframe outside of bugfixes, at least that I can see.

2) USC has been the *default* package manager since 10.04, though Synaptic still shipped. (see https://help.ubuntu.com/community/SoftwareCenterFAQ [ubuntu.com])

It really isn't that much of a hardship to drop Synaptic from the default install, as useful as it may be. The people that want it know where to get it, myself included.

Canonical needs to be more careful (3, Insightful)

frisket (149522) | more than 2 years ago | (#36548508)

I thought Unity sucked the first time I saw it. It still has defects, but having used it for a couple of months, it works, and it's not too bad.

Synaptic as always worked fine, and doesn't need replacing. But if Canonical is changing it for something else, they need to make sure they don't lose functionality, otherwise they'll lose their best marketing tool — the people who like Ubuntu and proselytise it well.

Unfortunately, Canonical is going the way of so many companies, becoming arrogant and thinking they know best, regardless. They need to develop some humility.

Who cares? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36548554)

If you know about it, you know how to install it.

Yet another annoyance (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36548618)

I admit it wouldn't be a dealbreaker for me, it's easy enough to get Synaptic back... but it's still an annoyance. I'm one of those people who unfortunately can't download 650MB+ of an .ISO on a whim (have a low-cap ISP so I have to wait until nearly midnight before the caps temporarily go away). The idea of downloading a DVD-sized .ISO makes me cringe. So it'd far sooner be the increasing size that prevents me from snagging Ubuntu... except it already has, since my monitor complains about "no signal" during the installation process. With ol' reliable Gnome 2 fading away, looks like I'll have to go with some XFCE flavor of Ubuntu or a different distribution.

Ideally the distribution I'd want is one with Gnome 2, a browser, common stuff I wouldn't think to look for (like wireless connectivity and working with NTFS drives), and a Debian package repository. That way I could choose all the stuff I want. But as far as I know, no distribution exists for that. You're always going to be stuck with a bunch of default software. Nice for most people. But it's more stuff I have to uninstall later.

A good move (1)

abhi_beckert (785219) | more than 2 years ago | (#36548684)

I'm not an Ubuntu user, but this seems like a good move to me.

It'll make the system more approachable for new users, and anyone who needs the fancy extra features shouldn't be using a GUI in the first place.

Serious linux geeks do package management from the command line.

Because of noobs? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36548760)

Um, I'm sorry. Is the Linux community still under the impression that any of their distros are used by noobs? Sillly Linux folks.

You can make Linux more user friendly than a Mac if you want, but that won't make "noobs" flock to it. By virtue of them being a noob prevents them from reformatting their perfectly working Windows computer and throwing Linux on there. It takes at least a Linux fanboy friend/relative to do that.

Ubuntu's purpose (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36548916)

The kind of people I know IRL who hate Ubuntu's more recent decisions are usually the kind of folks who don't get how most folks work. Unity is absolutely fantastic to everyone I know who is not trying to pretend to be a l337 power user or keep up their street cred in conversations. For people who need to get stuff done and hate using poor interfaces, Ubuntu has done the right thing every time. GIMP is hard to use and not something a novice would enjoy anyway. Synaptic has always been an ugly cluttered mess and it has zero advantage over CLI tools. Shotwell is just as good as any other photo program. Gwibber is meh and isn't really all that good looking but it is solid and it hurts nobody to have social networking apps built in. Empathy's only weakness is lack of OTR and someone who knows what OTR is can figure out how to install Pidgin. Canonical is very savvy and most "nerds" I know simply are not. Their computers are very idiosyncratic, they talk down to "normal people" in technical conversations, and advertise regularly how iconoclastic they are to prove their individuality. We fucking get it already. Stop complaining about Ubuntu: IT. IS. FREE. It is non-compulsory. It is the most successful attempt to bring free software to the masses because it does exactly the opposite of what an anti-social pompous prick would do when designing computer software: it really emphasizes the human element.

LOL @ Ubuntu users (1)

Drake_Casanova (1333347) | more than 2 years ago | (#36548942)

They want to goto a "Linux appstore" and download angry birds. Maybe even download "20in1 Hack Tools" and join lulzsec too heheh.

Its not installed by default (1)

nurb432 (527695) | more than 2 years ago | (#36548954)

..but not 'dropped' from the repositories. Somewhat misleading inflammatory suggestion we have here.

Get off my lawn! (2)

CjKing2k (309058) | more than 2 years ago | (#36549018)

Another "x dropped from Ubuntu" post, another mass ragequit from the hive mind.

Ten years ago, nobody complained about the default installation profile of Linux distributions. If you were geeky enough to use Linux, then you knew how to use package managers and could maybe even configure and make something from source. Now everyone wants their preferred DE and pre-selected apps handed to them on a platter, as if they reinstalled their OS every fucking week. If the default package list is a deal breaker for you when choosing a distribution, then you need to reevaluate why you are using Linux to begin with. And no, you probably won't find yourself welcome in the Gentoo/LFS communities either because they dropped this grievance long ago.

This is getting annoying (1)

atomicbutterfly (1979388) | more than 2 years ago | (#36549028)

What I want out of a Linux distro:

(1) Something Debian based (mainly due to my familiarity with apt and Debian systems)
(2) Something with modern enhancements for a desktop system (e.g. pre-patched font libraries so they have proper hinting and don't look like ass)
(3) Something which supports PPA or other external repos so I can remain as up to day as possible with the latest software (official repos are frozen bar security updates).
(4) Something which has out-of-the-box functionality for power users as well as regular users (there's no reason why you can't have both). No reason why you should have to live with a neutered DE like Unity when it should be more configurable for example.

It's a pity that Ubuntu is moving away from this. Every version seems to require further post-configuration from it before I'm satisfied - out-of-the-box settings are no longer optimal. On the other hand, Debian lacks PPAs and I have no idea how to get good looking font rendering compiled on that thing. Linux Mint is the closest option so far, but I'd prefer a straight Ubuntu distro for reasons of compatibility. All these changes between Ubuntu versions seem to be less about genuine improvements and more of a test to see what new features stick, and use the community as beta testers. And worst of all, Mark S has shown no interest in listing to the community. Global menus would be fine if they didn't frigging HIDE all the time, yet the automatic hiding feature will remain apparently despite wide complaints.

I WANT to use Linux, but I hate this shit of not finding something I like.

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