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Apple Has Stopped iOS Downgrading

CmdrTaco posted more than 3 years ago | from the fun-while-it-lasted dept.

IOS 207

An anonymous reader noted a forum post seems to confirmApple will be fighting downgrading in iOS 5. Quoting: "This will only affect restores starting at iOS5 and onward, and Apple will be able to flip that switch off and on at will (by opening or closing the APTicket signing window for that firmware, like they do for the BBTicket)."

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207 comments

Walled Garden (4, Insightful)

ffejie (779512) | more than 3 years ago | (#36583372)

You live by the wall, you die by the wall.

Re:Walled Garden (2, Funny)

Verunks (1000826) | more than 3 years ago | (#36583460)

You live by the wall, you die by the wall.

that's only if you take the black version of the iphone/ipad

Re:Walled Garden (1)

WarlockD (623872) | more than 3 years ago | (#36583612)

Jesus. Don't give apple any ideas. I can see the iphone skins being made as we speak.

As a side note, I have been messing with iOS 5 beta 2 SDK and I really like the iCloud feature.

Re:Walled Garden (1)

Pahroza (24427) | more than 3 years ago | (#36583984)

Great reference.

Re:Walled Garden (2, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36583556)

You live by the wall, you die by the wall.

Apple might tell you you're a unique snowflake and that using iProducts asserts your identity and creativity, but all in all, you're just another brick in their wall.

Hey! Apple! Leave those phones alone!

Desert without walls... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36583668)

You live by the wall, you die by the wall.

Yes, better to use Android, where there are no restrictions on downgrading.

Indeed, you're probably stuck with the older version, since your device manufacturer probably doesn't support anything except the version it shipped with. But there are not actual restrictions on it, so everything's cool.

Re:Desert without walls... (5, Informative)

tepples (727027) | more than 3 years ago | (#36583770)

Yes, better to use Android, where there are no restrictions on downgrading.

I assume this was sarcasm. But the difference, as I understand it, is that on Android, a user doesn't need to downgrade to a jailbreakable version just to install applications outside the scope of what the central app store's curator allows. All Android-powered phones support adb install, and most support "Unknown sources". Even AT&T has been turning "Unknown sources" back on [androidfools.com] due to popular demand for Amazon Appstore.

Re:Desert without walls... (2)

CharlyFoxtrot (1607527) | more than 3 years ago | (#36584342)

I assume this was sarcasm. But the difference, as I understand it, is that on Android, a user doesn't need to downgrade to a jailbreakable version just to install applications outside the scope of what the central app store's curator allows. All Android-powered phones support adb install, and most support "Unknown sources". Even AT&T has been turning "Unknown sources" back on [androidfools.com] due to popular demand for Amazon Appstore.

This argument is akin to the one made for Windows some decades back. "But look at the abundance of great shareware for the platform", while actually it was more like a steaming pile of VB6 homework projects.

Re:Desert without walls... (1)

hedwards (940851) | more than 3 years ago | (#36584548)

And you're suggesting that the App store's software is that much better? Please, considering how fast the collection has been growing for both options, it's pretty clear that at least 90% of both stores are full of crap.

Re:Desert without walls... (1)

Lumpy (12016) | more than 3 years ago | (#36585096)

But it's a bigger steaming pile wearing a black tuttleneck sweater...

It does not mater the platform, you will ALWAYS get steaming pile of crap apps. It's required.

Re:Desert without walls... (-1, Flamebait)

pandrijeczko (588093) | more than 3 years ago | (#36585160)

This argument is akin to the one made for Windows some decades back. "But look at the abundance of great shareware for the platform", while actually it was more like a steaming pile of VB6 homework projects.

What planet are you living on, apart from the obvious one filled with mind-warping breathable gases that make anything with a picture of a piece of fruit on it irresistible?

The whole concept of shareware is so that you "try before you buy" so that you avoid spending money on a poorly-written application or game before paying good money for it.

Additional, how in HELL do you think games companies like ID & Apogee made names for themselves across the world? Both were big proponents of shareware for games like Doom, Duke Nukem and many others - had they not had the shareware model, who knows where they would have been now.

I wouldn't even call myself a Windows user as these days I use mostly Linux, but I am sick to the back teeth of knowledgeless fanbois *MAKING SHIT UP* just because it appears to support their valid reasons to use Apple products when it's nothing more than wanting to be part of an elitist club of *BIGOTS* whose only purpose is to sneer down their noses at the rest of the world.

*BSD UNIX* comes from an ethic whereby some people write software because they have a good idea and some programming skills FIRST, and THEN discover that in some cases they can make money from it.

What the FUCK does it matter that some of the software they wrote wasn't very good! At LEAST they probably did a whole lot more than some clueless idiot like you buying into a fucking religion because you have more fucking money than sense.

Now kindly FUCK OFF and contribute to topics where you might have a FUCKING CLUE about the subject being discussed.

Re:Desert without walls... (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36585608)

Arguing with itards is a losing battle. I have given up long back.

Re:Desert without walls... (3, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36584636)

There are levels of "pwning" a phone.

A HTC phone that is rooted, re-rommed (Cyanogen, etc), and S/OFF-ed is all yours completely. You can do what you want with it. There are sites that actually let you build your own custom ROM, including/excluding stuff as you see fit.

I'd probably say the levels are:

1: ADB access.
2: Ability to sideload.
3: Temporary root (until reboot).
4: Permanent root.
5: Carrier unlock.
6: Custom ROMs doable via kexec(), but kernel signed. This is how all Motorola phone but the Droid get custom ROMs.
7: Custom ROMs that do not need to do the kexec() gymnastics. New Android version? Go for it. Custom Linux kernel? Rock it.
8: Fastboot unlocked.

iPhones are different. At most, you can get to level 4 (which is roughly equivalent [1].) Having a completely customized IPSW is almost impossible to do, and there is no such thing as custom ROMs for the iPhone. You might be able to use Winterboard or other relatively minor modifications, but rebuilding the OS from the ground up isn't going to happen.

You can rule your phone completely with Android. You can customize an iPhone, but the device is still pretty much tightly controlled by Apple.

[1]: A true jailbreak takes a lot more work on an iPhone than a "#" sign on Android. A jailbreak requires a load of essentially the whole userlevel UNIX land (basic commands, Mobile Substrate, etc.) This is why the Dev Team is conservative on releases, because it is a very exacting process and one move can either force a DFU restore or if messing around with BB, a true bricking.

Re:Desert without walls... (2)

jessecurry (820286) | more than 3 years ago | (#36584694)

I was able to carrier unlock my iPhone, so it looks like level 5 is available. Also, there's nothing stopping you from creating a custom OS for iPhone hardware, the big stumbling point is that iOS source code is not available as a base.

Re:Desert without walls... (0)

Dishevel (1105119) | more than 3 years ago | (#36583792)

There are 3 types of walled iPeople.
1. Those who need it. Dumb fuckers who should not be allowed onto the internet at all ever. (Hope the make the wall bigger for them.)
2. Those who understand the wall and are either ok with it or can circumvent it when they want.
3. Those who should be using Android.

Anyone who should be using Android can upgrade their phone anytime they want.
It is dead simple to be running a Sprint Evo on 2.3 Gingerbread even though it ships with HTC Sence and 2.2

Re:Desert without walls... (1)

JBMcB (73720) | more than 3 years ago | (#36584614)

1. Those who need it. Dumb fuckers who should not be allowed onto the internet at all ever. (Hope the make the wall bigger for them.)

You mean iOS devices don't have an unrestricted web browser? Weird, I must be using some sort of alternative universe iPod touch...

Re:Desert without walls... (1)

scottbomb (1290580) | more than 3 years ago | (#36585564)

3. Those who should be using Blackberry.

Fixed that for ya.

Re:Desert without walls... (1)

0100010001010011 (652467) | more than 3 years ago | (#36584482)

Yes, better to use Android, where there are no restrictions on downgrading.

I hope you're @(*$ joking. It took me 10x as long to 'root' my Optimus V as it did to get my iPod Touch jailbroken.

My girlfriend can't get rid (easily) of her "i" Sprint button on her home screen. Mine at least links to something useful like my browser. Look at how Motorola, et al are locking down their Android devices so you can't put custom stuff on them.

Android is more 'open' but it is not this magical mecca that people on Slashdot keep proclaiming it to be.

Re:Walled Garden (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36584064)

You live by the wall, you die by the wall.

+1 , quote of the day

Newer iOS versons = slow older devices (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36584626)

People will now have to ditch them sooner because they become unusable and sluggish after a few firmware updates..

Officially they never enabled it anyway (3, Interesting)

blahbooboo (839709) | more than 3 years ago | (#36583404)

I have faith the Dev Team or someone will figure out some sort of work around. Otherwise, it has never been officially enabled anyway which is just a crazy setup. It's nonsensical to not allow people to change versions of iOS. Lots of iphone 3G people I am sure wish they could switch back to iOS v3 after finding v4 too slow. I understand security holes plugged might be part of the reason they do this, but since Apple stops supporting some of the devices (iphone 3G and iphone 1) anyway, it can't be why they don't allow downgrading...

Re:Officially they never enabled it anyway (4, Insightful)

fuzzyfuzzyfungus (1223518) | more than 3 years ago | (#36583750)

Three reasons, I suspect:

1. In most walled gardens with cryptographically secured clients(either hardware devices or software DRM piles on general purpose PCs) downgrading is a valuable tool for attackers: unless a fundamental attack is found, most attacks are comparatively minor bugs in version N or game Y's savegame loading routine or whatever, which are then fixed in version N+1 or game Y Gold Edition. If downgrading is possible, it becomes pretty trivial for people to keep a copy of the easiest-to-exploit firmware or software version that ever received a cryptographic signature, and then downgrade to it. If downgrading isn't possible, they have to keep finding fresh exploits as old holes are closed. This is the same reason why software that connects to DRMed media sources tends to get updated a zillion times a year, and why such updates are generally made mandatory pretty quickly.

2. At least some of the updates, for Apple's flagship devices(upon which the iPod touch and wifi-only iPad are sort of hangers-on), aren't just OS update lumps, they also meddle with the embedded cellular hardware's firmware. Allowing downgrading would require dealing with v.N+1 basebands talking to v.N OSes, or involve allowing the baseband firmware to be downgraded(which is of interest to unlockers and other parties who Apple's carrier buddies don't approve of) and may involve some amount of bricking risk.

3. Apple has, at least until shitstorms forced their hand, never been much troubled at the idea that they are seen as forcing people to upgrade(remember their original response to the iPod battery life problem, until whining forced them to change it? Or the various OS 10.x releases that have dropped support for hardware configs upon which, once the version check is hacked away, it can in fact run?). This seems to be a matter both of business and of philosophy: Obviously, as a hardware maker, anything that makes people buy new hardware is profitable. Philosophically, they have never shied away from a pattern of releases of the form "Here is version N+1, it is insanely great. Everything prior to today is an obsolete archaism. On the plus side, this allows them to do interesting things with some regularity. On the minus side, this makes them quite happy to declare various features dead well before some of their customers are ready. The idea that they would dedicate engineering effort to allowing people with version N-1 or N-2 devices to run an obsolete OS runs against their priorities.

Re:Officially they never enabled it anyway (-1, Troll)

pandrijeczko (588093) | more than 3 years ago | (#36585562)

Here's another one... fucking fanboi making shit up as he goes along.

In most walled gardens with cryptographically secured clients(either hardware devices or software DRM piles on general purpose PCs) downgrading is a valuable tool for attackers

Erm, Einstein... if an attacker has already got into a system, why in hell would he need to downgrade it? I've worked in OS security for years and I've witnessed attackers installing new stuff on a system, but downgrading is a new one on me.

unless a fundamental attack is found, most attacks are comparatively minor bugs in version N or game Y's savegame loading routine or whatever, which are then fixed in version N+1 or game Y Gold Edition.

Sorry, you've the lost the fucking plot here on two counts - a. Why do attackers only attack gamesaves? and b. I don't fucking understand what you are bibbling on about here anyway - and care even fucking less!

If downgrading is possible, it becomes pretty trivial for people to keep a copy of the easiest-to-exploit firmware or software version that ever received a cryptographic signature, and then downgrade to it.

Thanks. Now I KNOW you know fuck all about what you think you are talking about. NOBODY downgrades for reasons of getting less security on a system, instead what they do is install INSECURE APPLICATIONS - e.g replacing SSH with Telnet because the latter is easier to use or supports more clients. But that's DIFFERENT SOFTWARE not DOWNGRADING.

This is the same reason why software that connects to DRMed media sources tends to get updated a zillion times a year, and why such updates are generally made mandatory pretty quickly.

You FUCKING idiot! Lots of software gets upgraded many times a year because of NEW SECURITY EXPLOITS that need to be patched, why you'd pick out DRM apps particularly makes no sense.

At least some of the updates, for Apple's flagship devices(upon which the iPod touch and wifi-only iPad are sort of hangers-on), aren't just OS update lumps, they also meddle with the embedded cellular hardware's firmware. Allowing downgrading would require dealing with v.N+1 basebands talking to v.N OSes, or involve allowing the baseband firmware to be downgraded(which is of interest to unlockers and other parties who Apple's carrier buddies don't approve of) and may involve some amount of bricking risk.

Two words - "backwards compatibility". And you've now moved up a gear with the inane babbling, BTW. I have no idea what you are on about, you sound like managers I've worked for who are trying to impress me with their technical knowledge and TOTALLY FUCKING IT UP in the process!

Apple has, at least until shitstorms forced their hand, never been much troubled at the idea that they are seen as forcing people to upgrade(remember their original response to the iPod battery life problem, until whining forced them to change it? Or the various OS 10.x releases that have dropped support for hardware configs upon which, once the version check is hacked away, it can in fact run?). This seems to be a matter both of business and of philosophy: Obviously, as a hardware maker, anything that makes people buy new hardware is profitable. Philosophically, they have never shied away from a pattern of releases of the form "Here is version N+1, it is insanely great. Everything prior to today is an obsolete archaism. On the plus side, this allows them to do interesting things with some regularity. On the minus side, this makes them quite happy to declare various features dead well before some of their customers are ready. The idea that they would dedicate engineering effort to allowing people with version N-1 or N-2 devices to run an obsolete OS runs against their priorities.

I do NOT understand you! Have you just entered some manic religious-fervour-induced naked dance around a pentagram shape made from your Apple products?

I give up, you are a technology moron. Stick to being an art student or a quantity surveyor or whatever other job you do that requires zero technical knowledge because you are clearly very good at it.

Re:Officially they never enabled it anyway (1)

emuls (1926384) | more than 3 years ago | (#36583948)

I actually managed to switch from iOS4 to iOS3 on my 3g iPhone. It took about 4 hours. All part of Apple's nickle and dime scheme. 1) Release update that ruins phone by slowing it down considerably 2) Make it impossible to downgrade (by any official means) 3) Watch the sheep all buy the new iPhone 4. Needless to say, my next phone will be an android. The samsung infuse looks nice (I have to stay with ATT)

Re:Officially they never enabled it anyway (1)

thsths (31372) | more than 3 years ago | (#36584170)

You complain about lack of freedom with the iPhone, and you want to switch to Samsung? Seriously, that seems like you are just replacing one evil with another. There are certainly open android phones out there, but they are not made by Samsung.

Re:Officially they never enabled it anyway (1)

jeffmeden (135043) | more than 3 years ago | (#36584272)

You complain about lack of freedom with the iPhone, and you want to switch to Samsung? Seriously, that seems like you are just replacing one evil with another. There are certainly open android phones out there, but they are not made by Samsung.

Er, Samsung doesn't have a good track record across their entire line, although unlike some mfrs, they do not lock their bootloader making upgrades via unconventional means very easy. However, they do make the newest, openest android handset on the market so you probably should give them some credit... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nexus_S [wikipedia.org]

Re:Officially they never enabled it anyway (1)

brainboyz (114458) | more than 3 years ago | (#36584420)

Only open because it's Google's flagship and that's a requirement. However, the phone is a turd compared to what's out there (no external storage, no 4G, and a couple of others).

Re:Officially they never enabled it anyway (1)

canajin56 (660655) | more than 3 years ago | (#36584840)

Samsung phones are easy to root, the bootloader is unlocked so they are easy to update with custom updates, and they release all of their source promptly, meaning there are lots of said custom updates out there.

Re:Officially they never enabled it anyway (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36585244)

Sounds great. My mom should be able to figure that out easily right? oh wait... :P

Re:Officially they never enabled it anyway (1)

blahbooboo (839709) | more than 3 years ago | (#36584198)

Well, having used both device types, just a word of warning. iOS is a LOT more user friendly than Android. Some of the UI design decisions in Android are just so stupid. I do like a lot about android, but I really would love a device that combined ios and android best stuff -- then again most people would! Android is great if you want the ability to futz around endlessly with your device and willing to spend the time to figure out what to install etc, whereas iOS has things ready to go for most of what most people want to do. Just my $0.02 analysis on it...

Re:Officially they never enabled it anyway (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36584564)

Gotta be honest here: For all the kvetching I've heard about iOS having "better UI design decisions" than Android, I've yet to see a single person put the actual advantages into concrete definitions that sound more specific than "Apple's UI design is better because UIs designed by Apple are better, duh". What of it is better, specifically?

Re:Officially they never enabled it anyway (1)

blahbooboo (839709) | more than 3 years ago | (#36585138)

What of it is better, specifically?

It's the simplicity of just getting stuff done with less options as the flip-side. Here's one example related to how Android makes things more complicated then needed for most people -- deleting/removing/uninstalling an app you no longer want on your device.

To remove an app in iOS hold down your finger on the icon and then click the "X" to delete the app. Done

In Android (2.2 with HTC Sense is all I have access to at the moment), go to list of applications window, select the Settings app, scroll through the non-alphabetized(?) list and select Applications, next select Manage Applications, next find app you want to delete in list and select it, and finally click Uninstall. Phew! Maybe there is a faster way, but this was what I figured out after having to google "Remove android apps" since when I tried to drag the app into the Garbage Bin didn't work. Happy to learn if there is a better way...

Re:Officially they never enabled it anyway (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36584940)

Interestingly, my GF (who is completely non-techy) prefers the UI on my Android phone to her iPhone - UI is far too subjective a decision to take someone else's advice, I'd always advise playing with the different phones personally and making a choice you like.

Re:Officially they never enabled it anyway (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36584280)

Try to downgrade a Nokia phone...

Re:Officially they never enabled it anyway (1)

nabil2199 (1142085) | more than 3 years ago | (#36584580)

Try to downgrade a Nokia phone...

my nokia n900 says hello

Re:Officially they never enabled it anyway (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36584418)

I can see multiple reasons why Apple wants to prevent downgrading. Where the noose will descend will be the next iPhone and iPad which will have iOS 5 by default, and won't have the hardware exploits that previous devices have.

Having the other shoe drop makes sense for apple:

1: Anti-jailbreaking measures become tougher to get around. A restore or a soft brick due to a failing Cydia app can mean one less JB-ed phone when the user is forced to restore to the most recent iOS version that fixed the holes.

2: DRM stacks become harder to get around, not just for pirated apps, but for movies. This pleases Big Media which will allow Apple to continue existing as a company and not suffer the same fate as mp3.com.

3: Devices can be locked out. Apple has the right to stop signing blobs for any phone it doesn't like to. I doubt Apple would do this, but if push came to shove, Apple could deny a device access to being reloaded. This can be a good thing, perhaps an anti-theft feature.

Re:Officially they never enabled it anyway (1)

delinear (991444) | more than 3 years ago | (#36584976)

For the average user, they won't even notice the difference. The issue are the edge case users - people who want Apple styling but still want control over their device. I don't know if those people exist in sufficient numbers (or if they value customisation over styling sufficiently) to hurt Apple on sales of a more locked down device, but it sounds like Apple is banking on the answer being no.

Re:Officially they never enabled it anyway (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36584720)

Not only did I wish I could go back to iOS 3, I did. Quick search gives all the information you need.

This will piss off small developers (1)

alispguru (72689) | more than 3 years ago | (#36584834)

Or at least the ones who can't afford a phone solely devoted to running beta iOS releases.

If I can't return my wife's iPhone to its supported state after loading a beta release, I can't load that release.

Re:Officially they never enabled it anyway (1)

tlhIngan (30335) | more than 3 years ago | (#36585496)

I have faith the Dev Team or someone will figure out some sort of work around. Otherwise, it has never been officially enabled anyway which is just a crazy setup. It's nonsensical to not allow people to change versions of iOS. Lots of iphone 3G people I am sure wish they could switch back to iOS v3 after finding v4 too slow. I understand security holes plugged might be part of the reason they do this, but since Apple stops supporting some of the devices (iphone 3G and iphone 1) anyway, it can't be why they don't allow downgrading...

Honestly, they prevent downgrading NOW. It's been done since the 3Gs was released - the SHSH blobs. When you reload the OS, the first "connect to iTunes" part is to get the Apple-signed SHSH blob from the server. The only thing is, for the past couple of years, it suffered from the fact that replay attacks were possible, so if you captured the SHSH blob, you could fake the iTunes server and activate normally.

And this is necessary for all iDevices since then - iPhone 3Gs, iPhone 4, iPod Touch 3/4g, iPad (all), etc. Baseband authentication not required - the boot ROM prevents booting the OS image until it has an SHSH blob. iPhone 3G iOS4 implemented a "software authentication" that checked for SHSH, but was trivially bypassed.

It's nothing new, really. Though with the iTunes-optional thing, it may be harder to do if you don't have iTunes...

I found... (4, Insightful)

pinkj (521155) | more than 3 years ago | (#36583462)

I found when I upgraded from iOS3 to iOS4 on my 1st gen iPad it caused it to work sluggishly. I was considering going back to iOS3 if possible and I'm even more afraid to go to iOS5. I got the iPad at xmas and not even 6 months in I felt I'm already behind in performance.

Re:I found... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36583540)

Same with the iPhone 3G. It was completely unusable on iOS 4, and I had to downgrade it to iOS 3 to restore the performance.

You can't expect them to support hardware indefinitely, but releasing "upgrades" that break the hardware and failing to allow those "upgrades" to be rolled back is another issue entirely. A cynic might think it to be deliberate.

Re:I found... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36583634)

Apple has this way of forcing you to upgrade your hardware by making it useless via forcing you to upgrade your software. This guarantees that you'll always be out buying the newest hardware so that you can continue to be a loyal customer to them.

Re:I found... (1)

pinkj (521155) | more than 3 years ago | (#36583704)

Yes, I tend to agree with that. Once the 1st gen iPad gets practically obsolete, maybe installing Android through OpeniBoot [idroidproject.org] will be a viable option.

Re:I found... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36584000)

Apple has this way of forcing you to upgrade your hardware by making it useless via forcing you to upgrade your software. This guarantees that you'll always be out buying the newest hardware so that you can continue to be a loyal customer to them.

Forcing you to upgrade your software? Offering features that sound good isn't exactly FORCING you to upgrade.

Re:I found... (4, Interesting)

repetty (260322) | more than 3 years ago | (#36584194)

Apple has this way of forcing you to upgrade your hardware by making it useless via forcing you to upgrade your software. This guarantees that you'll always be out buying the newest hardware so that you can continue to be a loyal customer to them.

Forcing you to upgrade your software? Offering features that sound good isn't exactly FORCING you to upgrade.

Actually, this is a very good point and one of the glaring problems that Apple iPhone and Apps Store has: No user-oriented software version control. (The vendor-oriented software version controls seems to work fine.)

Yes, you can upgrade wholesale but you cannot really manage your software with their version control.

Want to skip a version? Fuck you.
Want to roll back to a better, older, previously paid-for version? Fuck you.
Have to do a restore but like the older version? Fuck you.

iPhone users have little of the control that Mac OS X users are accustomed to. Really sucks and one reason I'm worried as Apple transmutes Mac OS X into a iOS clone.

Re:I found... (1)

fuzzyfuzzyfungus (1223518) | more than 3 years ago | (#36584684)

The version that the vendor wants you to be running is always the best version. It's axiomatic.

Re:I found... (1)

DrXym (126579) | more than 3 years ago | (#36584214)

If it were just features or bugfixes people wouldn't object. But it's not just features. It is to restrict what you can do with your own device, the apps you can run on it, the data you can use with it, the software you need to sync with it. It's more like a console than a phone and that gets people's backs up.

Re:I found... (1)

grub (11606) | more than 3 years ago | (#36584218)

News Flash: new operating systems can require more beefy hardware. Try installing Win7 on a machine "Designed for Windows 95" and see how it goes...

Re:I found... (1)

0ld_d0g (923931) | more than 3 years ago | (#36584672)

Well there is a difference. If your iOS device somehow gets borked and yuo want to do a restore firmware you now cant go back to the original one and (if this story is true) it means that you're forced to install the newer (and potentially slower) iOS.

Re:I found... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36584772)

A better analogy would be to try installing Windows 7 on a 3-year-old machine "Designed for Windows Vista" and see how it goes. It should work fine.

Re:I found... (1)

grub (11606) | more than 3 years ago | (#36584886)

Portable devices have progressed far further in 3 years than desktop machines, though 1995 may have been a stretch... :)

Re:I found... (1)

Lumpy (12016) | more than 3 years ago | (#36585280)

Not if it's from HP....

Got one here, NO DRIVERS for the HP hardware. they only made 32bit drivers and they dont work on 64bit windows 7.

Made me stop from ever buying another HP product ever again. Even their printers... Never again!

Re:I found... (1)

CharlyFoxtrot (1607527) | more than 3 years ago | (#36584232)

Apple isn't forcing anyone. iTunes will ask very nicely if you want to upgrade, download file only or go away and not bother you again (until the next version that is.)

Re:I found... (2)

blahbooboo (839709) | more than 3 years ago | (#36583728)

I found when I upgraded from iOS3 to iOS4 on my 1st gen iPad it caused it to work sluggishly. I was considering going back to iOS3 if possible and I'm even more afraid to go to iOS5. I got the iPad at xmas and not even 6 months in I felt I'm already behind in performance.

Strange, no one I know with ipad 1 has had any issues with iOS 4.

I suggest you do a re-install and this time setup as a NEW ipad. Most people with these sort of issues with iOS find that setup as a new device (again, NOT restore from backup) takes care of the issue.

Re:I found... (1)

pinkj (521155) | more than 3 years ago | (#36583756)

I'll try that. Thanks. iOS4 hasn't made it unusable, but it did cause some apps to be less responsive.

Re:I found... (1)

blahbooboo (839709) | more than 3 years ago | (#36584090)

Happy to help. I am fairly certain this will fix your problem.

Re:I found... (1)

Richard_at_work (517087) | more than 3 years ago | (#36584108)

Agreed - I haven't actually found anything in iOS4 for the iPad 1 that I have needed yet, besides the fact that they removed my favourite wallpaper from iOS4 (the desert island scene), so really I lost out :( Haven't found anywhere that offers it as a download yet either.

Also, they never fixed any of the annoyances I had - Safari should not randomly reload a page just because it feels like it (yeah, sure, its out of ram, so lets reload pages when you switch to them - bang goes my half filled form, or the page copy I had highlighted), and it most certainly should not open a new link in a "tab" it chose at random rather than a new one because I reached my limit of 9.... at least warn me before randomly fucking with my tabs.

Re:I found... (1)

CharlyFoxtrot (1607527) | more than 3 years ago | (#36584776)

Agreed - I haven't actually found anything in iOS4 for the iPad 1 that I have needed yet, besides the fact that they removed my favourite wallpaper from iOS4 (the desert island scene), so really I lost out :( Haven't found anywhere that offers it as a download yet either.

You mean this one [amazonaws.com] ?

Re:I found... (1)

Richard_at_work (517087) | more than 3 years ago | (#36584846)

Nope, this was an almost cartoony desert island with palm trees scene - you could see the entire island in a deep blue sea.

Re:I found... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36584844)

Google (web, not image) search for "ipad 3.2 wallpaper". First result should be a forum thread with some of the missing wallpapers.

Cheers!

Re:I found... (1)

Richard_at_work (517087) | more than 3 years ago | (#36584962)

Thanks, turned out I misremembered it - twas the palm oasis one :D

Re:I found... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36585292)

Did you get the iPad used (for Christmas)? iOS 4.2 came shipped with iPads after september... My BS detector went off because most of the reviews I've read of iOS 4 and the iPad have been positive. The "non-positive" ones were usually saying "This should have been released with the original iPad" blah blah blah.

Hmmmm (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36583560)

An anonymous reader noted a forum post that looks to be confirming that Apple will be fighting downgrading in iOS 5 quoting
"This will only affect restores starting at iOS5 and onward, and Apple will be able to flip that switch off and on at will (by opening or closing the APTicket signing window for that firmware, like they do for the BBTicket)."

Possibly an English language translation would benefit those people not fluent in Apple. Is this more of a "hurray, Apple have finally put a stop to the scourge of downgrading" or more of a "booo, why are Apple stopping people downgrading"?

Re:Hmmmm (2, Insightful)

PhilHibbs (4537) | more than 3 years ago | (#36583650)

That depends. Do you love Apple products and think that they provide a slick, productive, secure intrrface? If so, this is wonderful news. Do you hate Apple and everything they stand for, and detest the idea of compromising your freedom for the safety of a walled garden? If so, this is draconian fascism that threatens the foundation of western freedom.

Re:Hmmmm (1)

delinear (991444) | more than 3 years ago | (#36585086)

You're forgetting all of the people who sit in between and both love the slick styling AND the ability to customise their own device how they like. This move doesn't really affect people from group A (they want the security so more security is only good for them) or group B (they hate the current level of lock down so more of it won't change their minds) but it has a huge impact on people from group C who now potentially have a sacrifice to make either way.

Re:Hmmmm (1)

CharlyFoxtrot (1607527) | more than 3 years ago | (#36584262)

Possibly an English language translation would benefit those people not fluent in Apple. Is this more of a "hurray, Apple have finally put a stop to the scourge of downgrading" or more of a "booo, why are Apple stopping people downgrading"?

This is more a "Huh, Apple has finally closed the loophole we were using to allow downgrades but we all knew this was coming."

Stopped? (2)

JustinFreid (1723716) | more than 3 years ago | (#36583602)

More like Apple has implimented another annoying, eventually to be circumvented, impediment to downgrading.

Grand until the update bricks your phone (1)

SMoynihan (1647997) | more than 3 years ago | (#36583628)

Speaking from experience: I had a less-than-a-year-old iPhone 3g, which got semi-bricked when I installed the iOS 4 update last summer (stated as compatible, as in Vista-compatible).

At the time, I was able to downgrade back to a previous iOS release; but, being unable to call even emergency numbers for minutes (oh, if the phone didn't crash entirely) until they fixed their memory-hogging, badly written OS months later (iOS 4.2), would be a very bad thing.

Re:Grand until the update bricks your phone (1)

RoverDaddy (869116) | more than 3 years ago | (#36583676)

I'm another 3G user and I did update to iOS4, never found it quite as horrible as others have reported, but at this point I'm afraid to update to the latest. My phone reports OS as 4.1 (8B117). Should I be updating?

Re:Grand until the update bricks your phone (1)

SMoynihan (1647997) | more than 3 years ago | (#36583796)

There was a BIG speed improvement at iOS 4.2, if I am not mistaken. Still doesn't bring you to the 3.x speeds, but at least the apps are compatible.

I think most of the slowdown was due to the search functionality being screwed up (searchlight?). Turning this off made the phone semi-useable. Still, Apple had to be informed of this by users who figured it out (deny the problem... maybe it'll go away?)

Re:Grand until the update bricks your phone (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36583950)

Yeah, the performance improvements were enormous going from 4.0 and 4.1 to 4.2.

The most bogus part is that iPhone 3G owners did not even get 4.3.x.

Re:Grand until the update bricks your phone (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36584296)

if spotlight was getting brain damage on a some phones and not others, the problem was a bug in spotlight that is only triggered by the media or information certain users have on their phones. It's called an edge case and they don't tend to crop up until the affected software is "in-the-wild"... i mean, how is Apple supposed to figure out every possible way you can screw up the metadata on an MP3 or something?

If your phone is broken after an iOS upgrade, restore and set it up as a new phone. Add stuff back bit by bit until whatever was broken breaks again. Now you know where the bug is and you can fix it yourself, or tell Apple exactly what you did to break it.

Re:Grand until the update bricks your phone (1)

SMoynihan (1647997) | more than 3 years ago | (#36584510)

Apologies, just checked the web and it seems the improvement was mainly in 4.1, not 4.2 - so you should have the benefits of it already. Your phone is likely as fast as it it is going to get in the 4.x cycle, though (in my experience) none of the later updates slowed it down again. 3g is incompatible with iOS 5.0, so there will be no option to install that (thankfully).

I know the slowdown affected different phones differently, maybe something to do with their batches of RAM?

In any case, phone-calls and texts would take minutes to make or crash the phone, I'd usually never be able to answer the phone as it would freeze for longer than it would ring for, and crashes galore.

Happy. Fun. Times.

Re:Grand until the update bricks your phone (3, Insightful)

sglewis100 (916818) | more than 3 years ago | (#36584032)

Speaking from experience: I had a less-than-a-year-old iPhone 3g, which got semi-bricked when I installed the iOS 4 update last summer (stated as compatible, as in Vista-compatible).

At the time, I was able to downgrade back to a previous iOS release; but, being unable to call even emergency numbers for minutes (oh, if the phone didn't crash entirely) until they fixed their memory-hogging, badly written OS months later (iOS 4.2), would be a very bad thing.

If you had a less than a year old iPhone 3G, then you had a warranty. I can't imagine what you had to worry about. Oh, wait, I just saw the thing about being unable to call emergency numbers for MINUTES. This is good advice, and should be in the disclaimer in iTunes. Never start an iOS upgrade in the middle of a house robbery, or other event that might require you calling 911, unless you have another phone handy.

Re:Grand until the update bricks your phone (1)

jschmitz (607083) | more than 3 years ago | (#36584364)

LMFAO!

Re:Grand until the update bricks your phone (2)

Richard_at_work (517087) | more than 3 years ago | (#36584706)

I know you went for teh funneh, but iOS4 killed the 3G for a lot of people and invariably in different ways - for example, I found myself randomly (but more often than not) in the situation where my phone was ringing, the screen had the swipe thing up to answer, but the phone was not responding to the swipe. Once the call failed over to voice mail, the phone acted as normal.

LUSERS !! SWITCH TO WINDOWS PHONE 7 !! (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36583736)

And you get stopped UPGRADING !! How degrading !! Who but those out of their fucking minds would buy into that ?? That is a question in search of a lost answer !! I have never even seen anyone anywhere on the street using one of those !! Who does ?? Where at ?? HOW COME ??

a game for gentlemen, but the stakes are high (1)

h1q (2042122) | more than 3 years ago | (#36583766)

Until iPhone security is implemented with RSA or other public-key crypto system on chip, the cycle of crack and patch will be for us onlookers an amusing game of quoits, or maybe as a slap-fight at a Wild Irish Rose festival. For Apple, though, the stakes are higher than kids getting to play $0.99 games for free, as each exploit is a proof-of-concept that both questions Apple's entire design, implementation, and review process and demonstrates to businesses that their trade secrets remain low-hanging fruit on the iOS platforms.

Re:a game for gentlemen, but the stakes are high (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36584060)

Didn't you read the part where LLB checks the ticket signing? The A4 chip (and the baseband, but that wasn't vulnerable) does public-key crypto in hardware....which doesn't matter if the keys are leaked or the signing can be replayed. That is what Apple is fixing.

Re:a game for gentlemen, but the stakes are high (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36584480)

I guess "implemented" should have been preceded with "properly" Naturally if any part of the un-encrypted stream from A4 chip to Apple is accessible to third parties, the stream is vulnerable. Preventing MitM and replay attacks are just details.

I feel... (1)

errandum (2014454) | more than 3 years ago | (#36583776)

I feel that their objective is simple.

They release an "upgrade" that degrades performance on older phones. People update because of the new features but soon decide it is too slow for their taste and try to downgraded back to when it was ok.

Since now they won't be able to, and their phone is ruined, they decide they need a new phone. But all those apps they bought are stuck to iThings, so, not wanting to lose them, they buy a new iPhone.

*Sigh*

Re:I feel... (1)

MobileTatsu-NJG (946591) | more than 3 years ago | (#36584026)

They release an "upgrade" that degrades performance on older phones. People update because of the new features but soon decide it is too slow for their taste and try to downgraded back to when it was ok.

Probably, any company would smile at that prospect. I think it's more likely that Apple's been keeping an eye on what's been happening with the PSP and are trying to stay ahead of those trying to jailbreak their products. There are people who have their PSPs at a certain version of the firmware and won't go past it. That means no buying of new PSP games since they often require the newest version available at the time of their release.

Re:I feel... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36584182)

If Apple wanted to force upgrades, they would not release ANY upgrades for older phones. Eventually new apps wouldn't run on older versions of iOS. People would upgrade, like it or not.

If Apple didn't care about performance on older phones, they would try to stuff everything on older phones. Apple tends to leave out iOS features (multitasking...) that older hardware can't handle well.

The few times an iOS upgrade caused performance problems, Apple released an update that fixed it. They do test these things, but they can't test for everything.

This is why Lulzsec ended their 50 day Vacay! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36583854)

This is why Lulzsec stopped they're 50 day vacay... to focus all their attention on making iOS down-gradable.

Inaccurate title (2)

Have Blue (616) | more than 3 years ago | (#36583856)

It implies that Apple ever condoned or deliberately enabled this. They are strengthening their protection against an activity that they never intended to be possible. You might as well post "Apple Stops Jailbreaking".

Re:Inaccurate title (1)

whisper_jeff (680366) | more than 3 years ago | (#36584096)

You might as well post "Apple Stops Jailbreaking".

And, somehow, that's how some people will view it.

They'd be wrong, but some will find a way to view it that way.

Re:Inaccurate title (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36585408)

Plenty of people's response to Apple's walled garden has been "If they really cared, they'd make it harder to jailbreak", just like in the days when iTunes DRM'ed everything their response was "you can break DRM by burning to a CD and reimporting it, if they really cared about DRM they wouldn't allow that". What's becoming increasingly apparent is that Apple do care about DRM, very much so, and that the reason they've allowed jailbreaking etc in the past is... well, they haven't specifically, they've just not been able to prevent it without too much of a compromise (in usability or whatever).

Re:Inaccurate title (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36585056)

"Inaccurate title" LOL.. You should come here for the Microsoft stories ;-) "Liar Liar Pants on Fire" comes to mind. Unless anecdotes/heresay are now somehow equivalent to news or evidence of news.

Nobody comes to the comment section for actual discussion. Its mostly to validate their own position and partake in the great slashdot echo-chamber. Just relax and enjoy the nerds raging. Its all good. Maybe troll a bit to set a few of them off ;-)

I don't understand (1)

frps25 (1663043) | more than 3 years ago | (#36583872)

I don't understand this guys trying to fight a product which tries to lock them down: Don't fight it! don't buy it! period!

Re:I don't understand (1)

rockout (1039072) | more than 3 years ago | (#36584454)

The thing is, it's worth it to buy if you're able to jailbreak it/downgrade it whatever, because it seriously is a good phone. If the jailbreaking ever becomes impossible, then maybe that subset of users will stop buying it. But until then, there's no reason for me to not buy it.

Re:I don't understand (1)

pandrijeczko (588093) | more than 3 years ago | (#36585638)

Jailbreaking an iPhone is like going to a pizza restaurant and asking them to make you a chicken chow mein because of your allergy to cheese.

Re:I don't understand (1)

ArmchairGeneral (1244800) | more than 3 years ago | (#36584570)

That's exactly why I went with Android. Sure the iPhone works great, I think it's a well-made smartphone, but I can't abide with their control-freak attitude so I avoid it.

Re:I don't understand (1)

repetty (260322) | more than 3 years ago | (#36584678)

I refuse to drive on toll roads.

I've been using the beta (1)

ilsaloving (1534307) | more than 3 years ago | (#36584258)

I've been using the beta and now beta 2 on both my iphone and my ipad. As of beta 2, you can now sync wirelessly, but syncing in general has become somewhat unreliable. Lots of wierd errors. But I'm not going to go up in arms since it IS only a beta.

However I've found the wifi usage on my devices to be significantly improved. I was hoping my 3g stability would improve but it still sucks. But my phone is a 3gs and I haven't noticed any issues performance-wise. Ditto with my Gen 1 ipad. So far I'm quite happy with the improvements Apple has made.

Re:I've been using the beta (2)

blahbooboo (839709) | more than 3 years ago | (#36584506)

With each release, Apple reduces my interest in Jailbreaking. Fact is, the tethering and the unlock are the only reason left for me nowadays. If apple wants to kill jailbreaking, just kill the reasons to jailbreak. I know of one big jailbreak dev who stopped with iOS 4 as he didn't really find it needed anymore with the new APIs apple had introduced in ios 4

Re:I've been using the beta (1)

ilsaloving (1534307) | more than 3 years ago | (#36585128)

The only glaring thing that is still missing for me is an easy way to toggle bluetooth and wifi on and off. I could do that with SBSettings.

This was bound to happen! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#36584662)

This really was an inevitability. Gives apple version control, and helps close the game of cat and mouse between developers. Even though it seems apple has taken a much less aggressive stance in completely stopping jailbreaks. (IOS 5 beta still exploitable by devteam exploit)

IOS (1)

tenevolence (2229866) | more than 3 years ago | (#36584746)

Apple has been fighting the downgrade for sometime now starting with the 3GS and the required verification signature through the apple servers hence the 3194 error you get when trying to downgrade your OS version on a 3GS and now 3G with newer versions. There are of course ways around it (using custom builds) but it just makes it more of a hassle. ANd thankfully for stuff like TinyUmbrella you can save your baseband and restore to it. I don't know how this will work with IOS 5 but I'm sure there will be a fix for it.

I think the post explains it poorly (1)

YesIAmAScript (886271) | more than 3 years ago | (#36584806)

The difference is that the restore is done on-device now (over the air updates). And the device sends a nonce to get an APTicket.

The restore app must be hacked to save the nonce and the APTicket together, and now since the app is on the device, it's going to be more difficult than it was before.

Apple never wanted downgrades before, that's why they stopped signing old code per device a while back, hence the "save your blobs" movement.

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