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176 comments

Politics making technology useless (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#36618426)

So basically the U.S. Patriot Act is making "cloud" storage a useless technology.

The Internet will hopefully route around the "cloud".

Re:Politics making technology useless (4, Insightful)

Seumas (6865) | about 3 years ago | (#36618534)

No, the US Patriot Act is making political geographical borders a useless invention. That you are across the ocean, with your own history, culture, laws, government, and values is of no consequence to us anymore.

Re:Politics making technology useless (4, Insightful)

vux984 (928602) | about 3 years ago | (#36618562)

To be fair... its only because they can address the letter to microsoft, which is in its own juridiction.

All this means is that a multinational can't move part of its assets to europe and then have immunity to the us govt.

If MS wants immunity, it has to leave America.

Re:Politics making technology useless (5, Insightful)

AHuxley (892839) | about 3 years ago | (#36618650)

If the US has a base, is friendly with a nation or your telco loops data via friend of the US or a country with a US base ....
Your data is now US data and has been for many years. The problem with the Patriot Act is you not just been watched anymore.
Think hard before you share too much data with anything US on a network.

Re:Politics making technology useless (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#36618876)

If MS wants immunity, it has to leave America.

For where? Canada's right wing government agreed to share private data on its citizens with the U.S. (for example).

And this isn't just a U.S. problem. China, India, Saudi Arabia et al wants to know what it's citizens and their corporations are doing as well.

Any type of commercialized cloud service will be useless to businesses or anybody wanting security for their data because there is a central point of failure (the Headquarters or central office of the people who run the "cloud" services). Politics and leadership is an inherently corrupt business, so know country is safe.

We need something more distributed like Freenet. Yes, it would be great to see businesses actually getting involved in Freenet (or onion-routed services). Of course the legal repercussions could be great (especially in places like China). The U.S. is just starting to catch up to the corruptness of China with regards to the Internet. If you can't beat them, then be as corrupt as them!

And the funny thing is that businesses should be the most worried, because most espionage is economic in nature. Terrorism is the excuse meant for schmucks and losers. If the U.S. really wanted to defeat terrorism then they would wage a campaign against social and economic inequality and religion. This they will NEVER do.

Re:Politics making technology useless (0)

sumdumass (711423) | about 3 years ago | (#36618984)

Who said anything about the US wanting to end all terrorism. We are just happy with fighting a campaign to defeat it when it's used against us or our allies.

Besides, your premise is completely wrong to boot. Bin Laden said that 9/11 was because we supported Israel. Had nothing to do with inequality. religion maybe, but that's a fundamental human right recognized by every single human rights group out there. waging a campaign to end a human right in order to stop something is a bit ridiculous isn't it.

Re:Politics making technology useless (1, Informative)

Wyatt Earp (1029) | about 3 years ago | (#36619600)

The assertion about 9/11 is completely wrong.

http://www.fas.org/irp/world/para/docs/980223-fatwa.htm [fas.org]

AQ's reasons for the Jihad
1. There are Americans, Christians and "Zionists" in Saudi Arabia
2. Those groups fought a war against Iraq from Saudi Arabia
3. There are Christians, Jews and "Zionists" in lands that are "Muslim" like Jerusalem

Re:Politics making technology useless (0)

KDR_11k (778916) | about 3 years ago | (#36619764)

Al Qaeda is a franchise, that's the key problem with them. Annihilating the whole thing would not eliminate Al Qaeda as a name as any random idiot or disenfranchised youth can take the name.

Re:Politics making technology useless (0)

Wyatt Earp (1029) | about 3 years ago | (#36619788)

Yea, and the Colonel Sanders of the chain just got killed, now the franchisees are running the show.

Re:Politics making technology useless (1)

element-o.p. (939033) | about 3 years ago | (#36619662)

waging a campaign to end a human right in order to stop something is a bit ridiculous isn't it.

It sounds like standard TSA policy to me.

Re:Politics making technology useless (4, Insightful)

rtb61 (674572) | about 3 years ago | (#36618976)

Patriot Act has nothing to do with it. Long ago foriegners were denied all rights by the US government, in fact in US police agencies are entitled to break all other countries laws and US law, even when those actions would be illegal in the US.

Making it public that M$ would have over private information from other countries once in it's cloud at any request of any US government agency, has pretty much crippled the M$ cloud and prevented from doing any work for any foreign government agency.

In fact that kind of delcaration put's into doubt the trust of any M$ software, when updates and patches are delivered direct from the US and US government agencies can legally corrupt those patches in direct contravention to local foreign laws, leaving M$ under the gun for criminal conspiracy to corrupt computer networks and the executives would be subject to extradition or the whole extradition system when tied to the US would collapse.

Re:Politics making technology useless (0)

Zemran (3101) | about 3 years ago | (#36619304)

'If MS wants immunity, it has to leave America.'

F*ck off, we do not want them... You can keep them and their money (well maybe we will accept the money) but they represent America and you can keep them.

Re:Politics making technology useless (1, Insightful)

unity (1740) | about 3 years ago | (#36619164)

Yet another reason to support Dr. Ron Paul for president.

Re:Politics making technology useless (4, Informative)

Wyatt Earp (1029) | about 3 years ago | (#36619614)

Good luck with gay rights, gay marriage, Abortion rights at the national level with Ron Paul as President.

Re:Politics making technology useless (2)

Osgeld (1900440) | about 3 years ago | (#36619194)

yes because political influence across boarders and geographical boundaries has never ever happened before microsoft, the cloud, and the patriot act, all in man's history

Re:Politics making technology useless (4, Funny)

c0lo (1497653) | about 3 years ago | (#36618692)

This [despair.com] : "GOVERNMENT — If you think the problems we create are bad, just wait until you see our solutions."

Re:Politics making technology useless (4, Insightful)

c0lo (1497653) | about 3 years ago | (#36618852)

Makes me sad the parent is rated Funny.

Re:Politics making technology useless (1)

Osgeld (1900440) | about 3 years ago | (#36619176)

the cloud storage is making the cloud storage a useless technology

not that 99% of the fuckwits on this planet even understand what cloud means, even ouside of a computer context

USA-free Internet? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#36618430)

Go ahead US government, go ahead and mess with Europe's Internet. Do this and soon a new World Wide Web will be created and the USA won't be invited this time.

Re:USA-free Internet? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#36618810)

1. We invited you.

2. Money > Privacy

3. Follow 2

4. Profit!

Re:USA-free Internet? (4, Funny)

_Sprocket_ (42527) | about 3 years ago | (#36619192)

Ooh! Will this one have blackjack and hookers?

More reasons why the Cloud is a disaster (4, Insightful)

Scareduck (177470) | about 3 years ago | (#36618432)

Just plain stupid for customers. No control over your data.

Re:More reasons why the Cloud is a disaster (2)

LordLimecat (1103839) | about 3 years ago | (#36618454)

Er, presumably if there were such a National Security Letter, housing it yourself wouldnt give you much choice in the matter either; you would be forced to turn over the data regardless.

This article is basically an excuse to rail at the cloud and at the US government, but it really doesnt reveal any new information.

Re:More reasons why the Cloud is a disaster (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#36618472)

Really, even if this data is on computers on a different continent? At that point, I just tell Uncle Sam to blow me.

Good luck with that. (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#36618626)

If Uncle Sam wants that data, your local police force will be coerced into kicking down the doors to your datacenter and holding a gun to your head.

Fuck, we do it over fucking mp3s.

Re:Good luck with that. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#36618936)

MP3 traders hate us for our freedoms.

Re:Good luck with that. (1)

KDR_11k (778916) | about 3 years ago | (#36619786)

The EU doesn't particularly like giving all data to the US. Look at the whole SWIFT debacle a few years back.

Re:More reasons why the Cloud is a disaster (1)

element-o.p. (939033) | about 3 years ago | (#36619752)

Well...first off, that's what Afghanistan said to the U.S. after 9/11. That didn't work out so well for them. Second, turnabout's fair play, I guess [wikia.com] *

*Actually, I think both legal interpretations are egregious. IMHO, and I'm not a lawyer and certainly not a lawyer specializing in legal jurisdictions involving multiple countries, but if the data center isn't in the U.S., then Microsoft E.U. shouldn't be bound by U.S. laws. Likewise, Yahoo should not have been held liable for the Nazi merchandise viewed in France. What is a company to do when laws in one nation conflict with laws in another? In that case, there's no way to win.

Re:More reasons why the Cloud is a disaster (5, Insightful)

Registered Coward v2 (447531) | about 3 years ago | (#36618504)

Er, presumably if there were such a National Security Letter, housing it yourself wouldnt give you much choice in the matter either; you would be forced to turn over the data regardless.

This article is basically an excuse to rail at the cloud and at the US government, but it really doesnt reveal any new information.

Actually, TFA has a snippet that is interesting:

Frazer explained that, as Microsoft is a U.S.-headquartered company, it has to comply with local laws (the United States, as well as any other location where one of its subsidiary companies is based).

While the focus is on the US Patriot Act; that quote implies that cloud based data is essentially subject to any local law and that privacy laws don't protect someone if the law requires access outside of the jurisdiction covered by privacy laws. A local subsidiary would cough up the information, as required by law, not the one where the data may have originated and is covered by privacy laws.

Carried to an extreme, MS is saying that loud based computing renders privacy laws moot. It also means that presumably protect information could be accessed by any state that wishes to pass laws granting itself access (if a company has a subsidiary in that state).

While the US may be at the vanguard, the implications go far beyond there.

Re:More reasons why the Cloud is a disaster (1)

zill (1690130) | about 3 years ago | (#36618536)

What if US-headquartered companies created local shell corporations that owned the actual cloud servers? Could that circumvent the USA PATRIOT Act?

Re:More reasons why the Cloud is a disaster (1)

the eric conspiracy (20178) | about 3 years ago | (#36618760)

If you are a US company you have to cough up the data.

Re:More reasons why the Cloud is a disaster (4, Insightful)

Intrepid imaginaut (1970940) | about 3 years ago | (#36618698)

Which is of course utter nonsense, if the information of European citizens is being demanded by US authorities, that violates the stringent privacy laws in the EU. It comes down to whether or not Microsoft wants to do business in the EU. Handwaving about the cloud means nothing.

Re:More reasons why the Cloud is a disaster (2)

the eric conspiracy (20178) | about 3 years ago | (#36619020)

In the real world if the CIA wants something they will invoke whatever secret agreements that are in place with their EU counter-terrorism buddies and it will be all hunky-dory.

Re:More reasons why the Cloud is a disaster (1)

sumdumass (711423) | about 3 years ago | (#36619034)

If that information resides in a Chinese server, EU privacy laws wouldn't apply either. If you put your information outside the jurisdiction of your laws, why do you expect those laws to trump other laws. The cloud is global and if you put your information in a UK cloud, and part of it, including the command and control is in the US or any other country, you better expect those local laws to apply too.

Re:More reasons why the Cloud is a disaster (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#36619492)

When EU privacy laws were first formulated, it would have been illegal for US companies to transfer EU customer data to US servers for processing or storage. In order to allow Microsoft and other US companies to offer services in the EU, the US and EU administrations made a so-called safe-harbor deal, according to which US companies and agencies will follow EU privacy rules with regard to EU customer data. See for yourself in the wikipedia. [wikipedia.org]

Re:More reasons why the Cloud is a disaster (1)

PMuse (320639) | about 3 years ago | (#36618736)

Laws mostly control people. If you give a person (cloud provider) control over your data, you have just subjected your data to every set of laws that has a hold over that person. In today's example, MS has most of its assets in the U.S., so MS will do with your data what the U.S. says. Duh.

Precious few service providers will undertake to protect you when it means losing their own assets, personal freedom, or even just right-to-do-business. Show of hands, now: who really thought they would?

Re:More reasons why the Cloud is a disaster (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#36619390)

Microsoft's obligations to the US government under US law do not alter Microsoft's obligations to the laws of whatever country it does business in. If I am a UK resident and I store data in a cloud service that Microsoft markets in the UK, our contract (and the data) is bound by UK law. If Microsoft then sends that data to the US government in a way which is not permitted by our contract or by UK law, I can sue Microsoft in the UK, and I would win.

Now, I'm sure their actual contract says something like "if anybody that looks a little bit like a policeman, a court or a government asks, we'll hand over everything", but consumer law in the EU does not generally permit such sweeping abrogation of rights.

If things ever came to an impasse, such that the US said to Microsoft "thou shalt hand over this data" and the EU said "thou shalt not", Microsoft is in Morton's fork. Hand over the data to the US, as it must, and the EU could in principle close down and confiscate Microsoft's European operation.

It wouldn't come to that, but it's an amusing idea.

Re:More reasons why the Cloud is a disaster (3, Interesting)

The Second Horseman (121958) | about 3 years ago | (#36618846)

Try getting a company like Google or Microsoft, when they're trying to sell you hosted services, to say anything other than "we comply with lawful requests for information from governments". Note that they don't just mean your government. They mean the government of any country, and if it's a country they do business in, they have to weigh your business against access to an entire market. Which do you think they'll choose? They may try to dodge by only hosting the information in some geographical locations, but that doesn't help much.

Re:More reasons why the Cloud is a disaster (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#36618526)

I live in Australia. If I got a National Security Letter from the US govt, I would feed it to my pet dingo, then move to Coober Pedy before my arse-licking government had a chance to "Assange" me.

Re:More reasons why the Cloud is a disaster (1)

crafty.munchkin (1220528) | about 3 years ago | (#36619700)

No. You'd get served the letter via ASIO whilst bent over a barrel handcuffed as they proceeded to search everything of yours.

Re:More reasons why the Cloud is a disaster (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#36618664)

If you're in the US, then yes, but they'd have a harder time doing it without you knowing.

Depends (3, Interesting)

Roger W Moore (538166) | about 3 years ago | (#36618724)

Er, presumably if there were such a National Security Letter, housing it yourself wouldnt give you much choice in the matter either

Actually it would since my house is in Canada and I'd politely inform them that they'd need to talk to the Canadian government and, if they agree, have them make the request. Similarly in the EU US government demands are worthless. Canada and the EU (or at least the UK) have intelligence sharing treaties with the US so they can get access to the data but only if they ask and convince the local government first and it is in compliance with local law.

This is exactly as it should be. MS could end up in real legal trouble if the US government forces them to disclose data on their EU servers in contravention of EU privacy laws.

Re:Depends (2)

jimicus (737525) | about 3 years ago | (#36619434)

Canada and the EU (or at least the UK) have intelligence sharing treaties with the US so they can get access to the data but only if they ask and convince the local government first and it is in compliance with local law.

I wonder - how long does it take such a request to be processed and how often on average do they fail to convince the local government?

Re:More reasons why the Cloud is a disaster (1)

shentino (1139071) | about 3 years ago | (#36618726)

Doe v. Ashcroft may have something to say about that.

Re:More reasons why the Cloud is a disaster (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#36619046)

Really? I'd love to see the US government try and force me to turn over the data hosted on *MY* systems. Here, let me illustrate.

They come in, take all the computers and leave. Most likely I'm not under arrest. They give me a gag order, so I can't tell anyone about it. After a small time interval, I get a friendly agent telling me that I MUST turn over my encryption keys, or else. From this point forward, they get nothing, and it doesn't matter what they do to me. If they resort to torture, I give them the password. It's swordfish. They type it in, and all the files on the computer self destruct, including the ones that aren't encrypted.

Did you learn anything about proper cryptographic implementation?

Re:More reasons why the Cloud is a disaster (1)

KDR_11k (778916) | about 3 years ago | (#36619796)

Then they just charge you with destruction of evidence.

Re:More reasons why the Cloud is a disaster (1)

CruelKnave (1324841) | about 3 years ago | (#36618558)

What's the difference? If you self-host and the government wants access to your data, couldn't they just subpoena you anyway? Either way, it seems like if they want your data, they're going to get it.

Re:More reasons why the Cloud is a disaster (1)

davester666 (731373) | about 3 years ago | (#36618594)

Well, the difference would be, if you self-host in the UK, and an FBI agent knocks on your door and hands you an NSL, you can give him the finger and slam the door in his face.

Re:More reasons why the Cloud is a disaster (1)

c0lo (1497653) | about 3 years ago | (#36618712)

Well, the difference would be, if you self-host in the UK, and an FBI agent knocks on your door and hands you an NSL, you can give him the finger and slam the door in his face.

You give 'im a finger and he'll grab your whole arm. (hint: immigrate outside US)

Re:More reasons why the Cloud is a disaster (1)

zippthorne (748122) | about 3 years ago | (#36618788)

Hint: UK is not in the US....

Re:More reasons why the Cloud is a disaster (1)

c0lo (1497653) | about 3 years ago | (#36618826)

Hint: UK is not in the US....

(Somehow I doubt it).
But assuming you are right, what happens when an FBI agent knock at your door in UK and you give him the finger?

Re:More reasons why the Cloud is a disaster (1)

zippthorne (748122) | about 3 years ago | (#36618840)

Presumably he goes on his way. Or does something stupid and gets arrested by UK police....

Re:More reasons why the Cloud is a disaster (1)

c0lo (1497653) | about 3 years ago | (#36618924)

Presumably he goes on his way. Or does something stupid and gets arrested by UK police....

And what happens is you host files in UK (cloud or not), the FBI agent shows on your US door, you open it and you give him the finger?

Re:More reasons why the Cloud is a disaster (2)

whoever57 (658626) | about 3 years ago | (#36619420)

And what happens is you host files in UK (cloud or not), the FBI agent shows on your US door, you open it and you give him the finger?

You don't give him the finger. The correct equivalent English gesture requires 2 fingers.

Re:More reasons why the Cloud is a disaster (1)

c0lo (1497653) | about 3 years ago | (#36619468)

And what happens is you host files in UK (cloud or not), the FBI agent shows on your US door, you open it and you give him the finger?

You don't give him the finger. The correct equivalent English gesture requires 2 fingers.

To be politically-correct when you live in US (even if not an American), you don't make obscene gestures with two fingers... when one is just enough.

Re:More reasons why the Cloud is a disaster (1)

hedwards (940851) | about 3 years ago | (#36619086)

You call the police and report a suspicious fellow pretending to be law enforcement.

Re:More reasons why the Cloud is a disaster (1)

c0lo (1497653) | about 3 years ago | (#36619354)

You call the police and report a suspicious fellow pretending to be law enforcement.

For this to happen, you have to self-host (your files) and host yourself outside US. This is why my hint of "immigrate outside US".

Wrong, you ALWAYS have control (1)

SuperKendall (25149) | about 3 years ago | (#36619316)

You ALWAYS have the ability to encrypt anything you put in a cloud, or anywhere not on a system you physically control. It's just as stupid to put something crucial on a server that you own in a rack, than it is to put it on any "cloud"... you are just one FBI raid away from the child porn server in the rack above your your box being taken and given a total scan.

Patridiots Act.... (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#36618448)

So who exactly would be dumb enough to store terror plots in the cloud? And which requests would be sans gag order? 0.

Re:Patridiots Act.... (1)

TheCouchPotatoFamine (628797) | about 3 years ago | (#36618498)

it happens when things get cached in places you don't expect. When tools you think are safe are not. How are YOU to know where data is hosted, its just all out there, maaaan.. (keep your enemies close!)

It's its not it's (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#36618466)

Grammar, who needs it!

i'ts (1, Funny)

rot26 (240034) | about 3 years ago | (#36618530)

you leave my grammar out of this. she's a sweet old lady and never done nothing to you

Government Agents (4, Interesting)

jrumney (197329) | about 3 years ago | (#36618468)

If private US corporations can be used by the USA to extend its intelligence gathering reach like this, does that mean their employees can be treated as government agents by non-US law enforcement agencies? Could a privacy breach turn into an espionage case because of this? It'd certainly make me think twice about accepting a job for a US based company.

Government agents are for hire (2)

dbIII (701233) | about 3 years ago | (#36618784)

It's worse than that. Government agents have done industrial espionage on behalf of private enterprise at times as shown in the Boeing vs Airbus case. Hosting companies could be asked to hand over data just because it may be useful to a well connected competitor.

Re:Government Agents (2)

cavreader (1903280) | about 3 years ago | (#36619054)

Every country on the planet performs some form of intelligence gathering. It is not a US only issue although a disturbing amount of people think nobody does it besides the US. Even countries friendly with one another spy on each other. It is SOP in international relations. When someone gets caught they usually just swap compromised spies and go on their merry way. Cloud or no cloud the NSA has the means to capture, filter, and process almost all of the Internet traffic. The architect of the system balked when the NSA started capturing US traffic. Evidently his system was originally configured to encrypt any US specific data inadvertently captured. He ended up resigning because the NSA disabled the encryption which then allowed the collection of non-encrypted US traffic.

Re:Government Agents (2)

jrumney (197329) | about 3 years ago | (#36619406)

Every country on the planet performs some form of intelligence gathering.

Of course they do. The difference here is that the US seems to be compelling private US companies to do it on their behalf.

Right... (1)

__Paul__ (1570) | about 3 years ago | (#36618476)

...so I won't be using your service then, Microsoft.

Re:Right... (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#36618490)

And what makes you think the rules are different for Google, Amazon or any other cloud provider based in the US? For once MS seem to be clear and upfront about things, and that, frankly, should be applauded.

Re:Right... (1)

__Paul__ (1570) | about 3 years ago | (#36618720)

Well, I won't be using their services either.

Guess you should stick to a local MS server then (1)

nzac (1822298) | about 3 years ago | (#36618496)

There is only a small conflict of interest in Microsoft delaying the move towards the cloud where they have far less dominance.

Obvious solution... (1)

jonwil (467024) | about 3 years ago | (#36618510)

Use a cloud company with no US operations whatsoever.

Implications outside cloud services (2)

eL-gring0 (1950736) | about 3 years ago | (#36618514)

"Any data which is housed, stored or processed by a company, which is a U.S. based company or is wholly owned by a U.S. parent company, is vulnerable to interception and inspection by U.S. authorities. "

What doesn't fall under that? To be free of any potential US influence, EU users and companies should make sure the places they do business with have no ties to American companies? Sounds like ISPs, CDNs, web hosts, etc can be asked or forced to comply with government demands. It won't surprise me if there's a chilling of overseas demand for US Internet and Internet-connected services.

encryption. it's the only way "the cloud" is safe (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#36618520)

Who in their right mind would store their sensitive data in the cloud and not encrypt it locally first? That seems crazy. Patriot act or no, it's nuts.

leave the USA (3, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#36618542)

lets bail on this police state run by fascist idiots. leave before they won't let you. the businesses had the right idea going overseas. Microsoft should relocate to.

Re:leave the USA (1)

c0lo (1497653) | about 3 years ago | (#36618730)

the businesses had the right idea going overseas

Right for who?

Re:leave the USA (1)

Osgeld (1900440) | about 3 years ago | (#36619232)

anyone that wants a future

Re:leave the USA (1)

c0lo (1497653) | about 3 years ago | (#36619368)

anyone that wants a future

I want a future therefore I can only wish the USoA have kept their corporation in their yard! (good for the US businesses doesn't necessarily mean good for everybody)

Re:leave the USA (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#36618808)

Microsoft doesn't care, as long as its competitors don't have the data it's all good. Besides, if they help the State, it would be nothing but fair of the State paying back the favour. So, really, it's a win/win situation for everyone involved, including most of the population since the US is a (indirect) democracy.

"The Cloud" = "Don't know where your data is" (4, Insightful)

Sipper (462582) | about 3 years ago | (#36618546)

There are basically two meanings of "The Cloud":
      1) "You don't need to know where your data is"
      2) Rapid automatic server provisioning

The thing that's wrong about 1) above is that "The Cloud" is sold as "don't worry about the man behind the curtain." Being ignorant about where your data is actually stored doesn't mean that it's safe -- quite the opposite -- it means that there is elevated risks involved. Because laws change with location, not knowing where your data is means not knowing what laws are applicable.

That doesn't make it so (3, Insightful)

frovingslosh (582462) | about 3 years ago | (#36618550)

What stupidity. If China passed a law that said that they had to be given access to all of the data in all of the computers in the United States, I doubt very much if people would be jumping through hoops to accommodate them. Similarly, the U.S. can claim that it has access to data stored in computers in Europe, but no one should take them seriously.

Re:That doesn't make it so (2)

the linux geek (799780) | about 3 years ago | (#36618632)

You're missing the point. If Red China passed such a law, Mainland Chinese companies would have to accommodate it. Similarly, US companies have to comply with US law, even for their operations overseas.

Re:That doesn't make it so (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#36619736)

No they wouldn't, if they did, they would be severely sanctioned by governments around the world, until they stopped or went out of business, of the governments very forcibly put them out of business. You might have some sense for not obeying similar commands from a local government if they are clearly using the results to do something against international law (i.e. Yahoo in China vs. US Congress), but obeying overseas government commands to do something that is illegal locally is a plan for disaster of your company.

On the contrary... (2)

Demena (966987) | about 3 years ago | (#36619358)

Everyone should take them seriously. Has it not been demonstrated pretty well that the US can extradite anyone and anything they want in most places in the world? Has it not been demonstrated that they can lie to do this with impunity? There are colossal imbalances in power and the US seems to have no problem whatsoever with exploiting that. There is so much that the US does that is apparently illegal by local, international, and even US law and yet the US is apparently never, ever brought to account over it.

Re:That doesn't make it so (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#36619528)

Its the locals the US guvmint puts the beating on. Only nationals are targeted. They don't have to have a warrant, and in spite of the lie the microsoft rep. told (and lord love a duck they tell a lot), this one is a real whopper "we will inform them of government access" is a promise they cannot keep. The Patriot Act insists that the company not tell the customer that their privacy is being breached. Employees of the company --if US citizens-- are required to act as agents of the government and provide databases of information about non-Americans to the US guvmint. If you actually bother to read the act, its all in there.

So what happens to USA companies that break EU.. (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#36618666)

.. law regarding data protection, privacy and such when they comply with USA goverment demand?

Will these companies be income proprotionally fined by EU court? Their staff extraordinary renditied to European prisions?

They'll claim the hard drive crashed.. (1)

xanadu113 (657977) | about 3 years ago | (#36618696)

They'll just claim the hard drive crashed... sorry it was unrecoverable, you're going to have to reinstall everything...

GPG and Iceland (1)

E.I.A (2303368) | about 3 years ago | (#36618722)

Encrypt with GPG, and toss it into an Icelandic cloud.

Re:GPG and Iceland (1)

Wyatt Earp (1029) | about 3 years ago | (#36619624)

So then the Russian Mob and FSB own your data.

Is that really a good solution?

Thank You Mr. Obama (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#36618904)

...

--

customers would be informed wherever possible (3, Informative)

superdave80 (1226592) | about 3 years ago | (#36618932)

if a gagging order, injunction or U.S. National Security Letter permits it.

Basically, no one will ever be informed.

it's = it is (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#36619068)

Quick grammar lesson:
"government access to data in it's cloud services even in Europe"
=
"government access to data in it is cloud services even in Europe"

The correct word is "its"

Good (2)

RazorSharp (1418697) | about 3 years ago | (#36619106)

If the Patriot Act is perceived as a threat to 'cloud technology' (I hate the term) then perhaps these tech giants who have the power to ram their agendas down the throat of the government (Microsoft, Oracle, Apple, IBM, Google, ect.) will lobby against the Patriot Act. If the Patriot Act is bad for business then business may actually take the side of the people and try to use their money and influence to do away with it.

Re:Good (1)

Osgeld (1900440) | about 3 years ago | (#36619314)

business is lazy and greedy, make the right deal for the right price, and make everyone that really matter happy!

This really is no surprise.. (1)

Billlagr (931034) | about 3 years ago | (#36619356)

Hand over the responsibility of looking after your data to another party, you lose control of it.

Pathetic (1)

AmberBlackCat (829689) | about 3 years ago | (#36619400)

So they can make these companies give up personal information from people in other countries but they can't make the companies pay taxes?

Claiming American Immunity (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#36619476)

Gee, you would think that Microsoft UK when doing business in the UK would be required to follow UK law.
Just makes sense really doesn't it.

But then again I once saw an American in Australia absolutely stunned when he was being charged for a crime, he was adamant that Australian police had no jurisdiction over him because he was an "American Citizen".

Obligatory (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#36619502)

In A.D. 2011
War was Beginning.
UK: What happen?
Gordon Frazer: Somebody set up us the Patriot Act.
Operator: We get signal.
UK: What !
Operator: Main screen turn on.
UK: It's you !!
US: How are you gentlemen !!
US: All your data are belong to US.
US: You are on the way to observation.
UK: What you say !!
US: You have no chance to privacy make your time.
US: Ha ha ha ha...
Operator: UK !!
UK: Take off every 'MS'!!
UK: You know what you doing.
UK: Remove 'MS'.
UK: For great justice.

Local entity "required" to obey the parent company (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#36619790)

I don't think so. If I was the head of, say Google Korea, and I got a request from Google USA to disclose some data to US authorities, which would be illegal to do under Korean law, I would say "no.", and be quite justified in doing so, since Google Korea is obliged to follow local under all circumstances.

It's no really any different... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#36619800)

... for any of the other big cloud storage networks. e.g. Drop Box, iDisk. Both of those would be susceptible to the Patriot Act too as would many others.

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