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Apple Ships OS X 10.7 Lion 'Gold Master' For July Push

Soulskill posted about 3 years ago | from the tigers-and-bears-oh-my dept.

OS X 370

An anonymous reader writes "Apple released to developers the 'gold master' version of Mac OS 10.7, known as Lion, in a move that positions the company for a July roll-out. 'With Snow Leopard, Apple's previous Mac OS release, the time between going from gold master status to hitting store shelves was approximately two weeks. However that release required Apple to stamp and produce boxed discs to send out to retail stores. Lion will be the first by Apple to be released only through its Mac App Store as a digital download.'"

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370 comments

Stuff That Matters... Three Days Ago (1)

rakaur (984920) | about 3 years ago | (#36645278)

Didn't this happen like, days ago?

Re:Stuff That Matters... Three Days Ago (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#36645288)

Does it matter less now?

Re:Stuff That Matters... Three Days Ago (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#36645336)

No... lets it matter now

Re:Stuff That Matters... Three Days Ago (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#36645438)

Does it matter at all?

Fixed

"As a digital download" (5, Funny)

Inquisitus (937664) | about 3 years ago | (#36645280)

...as opposed to? An analogue download?

Re:"As a digital download" (1)

Vectormatic (1759674) | about 3 years ago | (#36645334)

*cries his eyes out imagining updating to lion on a 56K line*

(and yes, i know the modem sends binairy signals over the analog line and all)

Re:"As a digital download" (2)

davester666 (731373) | about 3 years ago | (#36645368)

Finally. A good excuse to upgrade from AOL.

Re:"As a digital download" (2)

smitty_one_each (243267) | about 3 years ago | (#36645434)

Don't mean to go all Four Yorkshiremen on you, but you'd be hard-pressed to find an Internet connection worse than Afghanistan.
Everything is via satellite, filtered, over-subscribed, and frequently wrecked by weather.
Talk about making the inner child frown.

Re:"As a digital download" (3, Funny)

BrokenHalo (565198) | about 3 years ago | (#36645648)

You don't even have to go so far afield as that. I've always found internet connections in Greece to be pretty flaky. Hell, it wasn't that long ago you could barely make a phone call there. And here in Australia, there are lots of places where you won't get any kind of connection, for example Cocklebiddy [wikipedia.org] , whose sole claim to fame is that it has a Wikipedia entry.

Re:"As a digital download" (1)

WillKemp (1338605) | about 3 years ago | (#36645780)

You don't even have to go so far afield as that. I've always found internet connections in Greece to be pretty flaky [.....] And here in Australia [......]

I think you need to take a look at a map of the world! Kabul isn't as far afield from Australia as Athens is!

Re:"As a digital download" (1)

WillKemp (1338605) | about 3 years ago | (#36645774)

I used to enjoy brushing the snow off the satellite dish in Kabul! It worked a bit better for a while after you did that.

Re:"As a digital download" (1)

Gazoogleheimer (1466831) | about 3 years ago | (#36645584)

Ethernet's just as analog as dial-up!

Re:"As a digital download" (1)

WillKemp (1338605) | about 3 years ago | (#36645770)

*cries his eyes out imagining updating to lion on a 56K line*

(and yes, i know the modem sends binairy signals over the analog line and all)

56k? You youngsters don't know how good you had it! I had to download my first Linux installation floppy disk set via FTP-by-mail over a 2.4kbps connection.

Re:"As a digital download" (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#36645848)

ftp?

xmodem :(

Re:"As a digital download" (2, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#36645906)

Before someone makes the wisecrack that they used their 2.4k accoustic coupler modem uphill both ways in the snow I'd like to point out that thermal noise and thus BER is significantly smaller at low temperatures.

Is XCode included in the download? (1)

the_humeister (922869) | about 3 years ago | (#36645282)

Hopefully it is.

Re:Is XCode included in the download? (2)

Y-Crate (540566) | about 3 years ago | (#36645316)

Hopefully it is.

They'll probably still charge you $4.99 for Xcode. Not terrible, but not great. Finding out gcc4 was not included in the paid version of Xcode... now that was terrible.

Re:Is XCode included in the download? (0)

countertrolling (1585477) | about 3 years ago | (#36645386)

They'll probably still charge you $4.99 for Xcode.

Heh, sounds like it will soon suffer the same fate as Hypercard

Re:Is XCode included in the download? (1, Insightful)

BasilBrush (643681) | about 3 years ago | (#36645524)

What? Providing the inspiration for the WWW, and then being made obsolete by it?

Re:Is XCode included in the download? (1)

node 3 (115640) | about 3 years ago | (#36645748)

They'll probably still charge you $4.99 for Xcode.

Heh, sounds like it will soon suffer the same fate as Hypercard

That actually, quite impressively, fails to make sense on so many levels. But the most direct is that Apple can never stop shipping Xcode while there isn't something to replace it, and there's nothing out, coming out, or even whispered about, to replace it.

countertrolling & the trolltalk.com crew (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#36645864)

Cheat the moderation system - here's where countertrolling explains what he's doing while he trolls others (to his fellow trolltalk.com friends) to downmod them via his registered account, logout, & ac stalk, harass, and troll them:

http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=2245866&cid=36491652 [slashdot.org]

Here's where countertrolling's "troll mechanics" for downmodding others is explained in detail by someone that got sick of it happening:

http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=2271908&cid=36579618 [slashdot.org]

As far as bogus up moderations, the trolltalk.com bunch (tomhudson, countertrolling, & others) collectively "team up" to upmod one another, in teams, as favors to one another.

(Talk about low, and bogus!)

---

In fact, here's what countertrolling says about it, why he does it, and to all of us here:

"What the skiddies here don't understand is that I don't give a shit about dumbass 'karma' on the internet.. I'm here for the jollies with nothing to lose or fight for.. watching them destroy their world.. They can go absolutely nuts as far as I'm concerned.. It's nothing but pure entertainment (and data points) for me and mine... Tragicomedy is probably the best word I can think of to describe it" - by countertrolling (1585477) on Thursday June 30, @10:26AM (#36622502) Journal

QUOTED VERBATIM FROM -> http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=2281808&cid=36622502 [slashdot.org]

Sounds like a sick individual to me.

(Don't get lured into their journals either. That's their main goal along with getting these data points that way. Just ignore them and they will be powerless before you know it (no mod points)).

Re:Is XCode included in the download? (5, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#36645446)

Pay attention! Xcode 4.x is free from the Mac App Store if you are running Lion. They said this 2 weeks ago.

Re:Is XCode included in the download? (2)

BasilBrush (643681) | about 3 years ago | (#36645512)

$4.99 is great for a professional IDE. Yes, it used to be even better when it was free. But $4.99 is nothing for what you get.

You should find gcc 4.2.1 in /Developer/usr/bin.

Re:Is XCode included in the download? (1)

TheRaven64 (641858) | about 3 years ago | (#36645588)

For now. To quote their slides from the WWDC, 'gcc is going away.' And I'm sure both people still using gcc on OS X will be devastated.

Re:Is XCode included in the download? (1)

BasilBrush (643681) | about 3 years ago | (#36645650)

It's going away, as in: it's no longer the default compiler. And I can't see them ever upgrading the version of gcc from the current one. But I can't see any reason why they'd remove gcc from the distribution of XCode in the foreseeable future. It does no harm to have the binaries sitting there. And some people will have custom build scripts that still use it for some arcane reason.

As you say most people couldn't give a damn about gcc on OSX. LLVM is a far superior compiler.

Re:Is XCode included in the download? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#36645806)

LLVM still produces slower code than gcc in almost all benchmarks. If they'd license Intel's compiler, now that would be another thing...

Re:Is XCode included in the download? (3, Informative)

F.Ultra (1673484) | about 3 years ago | (#36645928)

How do you define "far superior"? According to most benchmarks, LLVM still has some miles to go before it produces binaries that are faster than gcc (it does produce a few special cases where LLVM is faster though so it does show promise for the future). For example check out: http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=gcc_46_llvm29&num=1 [phoronix.com]

Re:Is XCode included in the download? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#36645852)

$4.99 is great for a professional IDE

It sure is! But I wouldn't give that much for Xcode. I wouldn't use Xcode if it was free.

Re:Is XCode included in the download? (1)

beelsebob (529313) | about 3 years ago | (#36645596)

gcc is not included in any version of Xcode any more. It's not supported by apple. If you want a compiler on an apple platform, supported by apple clang is the way to go.

That all said – I'm pretty surprised that no one has bundled up clang/gcc for free yet.

Re:Is XCode included in the download? (1)

AresTheImpaler (570208) | about 3 years ago | (#36645730)

hat all said â" I'm pretty surprised that no one has bundled up clang/gcc for free yet.

Apple does :). You can use llvm/gcc (backend/frontend) if you want. The newer Xcode versions default to LLVM but you can choose llvm/gcc and even gcc..

Re:Is XCode included in the download? (1)

BrokenHalo (565198) | about 3 years ago | (#36645662)

Finding out gcc4 was not included in the paid version of Xcode... now that was terrible.

If you know how to use it, then what's stopping you from downloading gcc4 from gnu.org and compiling it yourself?

Re:Is XCode included in the download? (1)

makomk (752139) | about 3 years ago | (#36645830)

Don't think the official gcc releases can compile code for Macs very reliably; Apple didn't contribute their changes upstream.

Re:Is XCode included in the download? (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#36645722)

Xcode 4.something is going free once Lion is released.
gcc is still included in Xcode, iirc, it will be gone in 4.2 or 4.3 (this was explained during WWDC). The gcc less xcode is going to be released around hte same time as iOS 5. "i686-apple-darwin10-gcc-4.2.1" is installed with 4.0.1
Xcode right now, iirc, defaults to LLVM, but if you want you can change it to GCC or LLVM/GCC

Re:Is XCode included in the download? (2, Interesting)

node 3 (115640) | about 3 years ago | (#36645742)

Hopefully it is.

They'll probably still charge you $4.99 for Xcode. Not terrible, but not great. Finding out gcc4 was not included in the paid version of Xcode... now that was terrible.

Apple is moving away from GCC and to Clang and LLVM. This is due partially to the GPLv3 (and the patent issues involved, and this is why Apple will never use the current version of GCC), and partly due to LLVM+Clang being quite an improvement over GCC (although it's presently a mixed bag, looking forward this is a good way to go).

As for the pricing of Xcode 4, it will be kind of disappointing if a license isn't included with Lion. $4.99 is a steal though, so it's difficult to complain too much, but one of the nice aspects of Mac OS X has always been the bundled developer tools.

Re:Is XCode included in the download? (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#36645320)

Not in the download. Server tools and Xcode are separate downloads but WWDC videos say that Xcode will be free for everyone who buys Lion, just like FaceTime.
Probably SOX laws again.

Re:Is XCode included in the download? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#36645350)

Probably SOX laws again.

Yeah, we all know Enron happened only because Xcode was bundled with the OS. Good that they finally protect us from those things.

Signed,
The MBA

Re:Is XCode included in the download? (4, Interesting)

RedBear (207369) | about 3 years ago | (#36645638)

XCode is a 4GB download all by itself and is only used by a tiny fraction of Mac users. Why on Earth would Apple want to add that to the already 4GB Lion download? That would be a ludicrous waste of bandwidth, time, and disk space.

Re:Is XCode included in the download? (2)

TyFoN (12980) | about 3 years ago | (#36645776)

What the hell do they put into that package to make it 4 GB? Isn't XCode just an IDE and a compiler bundled together?

Re:Is XCode included in the download? (3, Informative)

RedBear (207369) | about 3 years ago | (#36645838)

What the hell do they put into that package to make it 4 GB? Isn't XCode just an IDE and a compiler bundled together?

There are tons of libraries and frameworks for the current version of OS X as well as for past versions of OS X (for cross-compiling projects) and now for different versions of iOS, since the iOS SDK is included. There are also sample projects and an interface builder and debuggers and probably lots of other neat things that I'm not even aware of.

What you install to your hard drive may not end up being that big since there is a lot of optional stuff included in the main XCode download. So no, it's not just an IDE and a compiler. And it would be quite silly of Apple to include something so huge and unnecessary with every download of Lion. Anyone who wants it can just download it separately.

"a simpler way to find applications"... (4, Insightful)

countertrolling (1585477) | about 3 years ago | (#36645302)

They all used to be in the applications and utilities folder. What could possibly be simpler than that? And now it forces users to open an online account with Apple. That's not very nice.. There's no mention in the article, does it come down as a burnable iso? And how screwed are the people who just don't happen to have fast internet?

Re:"a simpler way to find applications"... (1, Informative)

Anubis IV (1279820) | about 3 years ago | (#36645364)

It doesn't come as a burnable ISO, but people that lack fast Internet aren't necessarily screwed, since Apple is allowing anyone to use the Wi-Fi in their retail stores to download the OS. Presumably, they'd have it cached on-site in their stores so that it wouldn't take long at all.

And most Mac users already created an account with Apple anyway. Their online store, iTunes Store, iOS App Store, Mac App Store, etc. have all had linked IDs for years now, so if someone ever purchased anything from any of those, they already have the required ID.

As for applications, they're still in those folders, but they're adding something akin to the way iOS organizes apps. Basically, it's a first step towards hiding the file system, and it's essentially a layer that can appear on the screen with all of your apps. With the new way of doing cloud syncing with automatic saving and versioning that Lion adds, people will have less and less need to manage the files themselves, and will instead merely interact with the apps, which manage the files for the user. This new launcher is a way of helping to change that focus, from what I can tell.

Re:"a simpler way to find applications"... (1)

countertrolling (1585477) | about 3 years ago | (#36645402)

Presumably, they'd have it cached on-site in their stores so that it wouldn't take long at all.

Only long enough for the wife to cruise the mall and break the bank buying more shoes than Imelda Marcos

Re:"a simpler way to find applications"... (2)

magusxxx (751600) | about 3 years ago | (#36645726)

That's kind of sexist. How do you know the wife isn't the tech of the family? ;)

Re:"a simpler way to find applications"... (1)

node 3 (115640) | about 3 years ago | (#36645792)

An unfunny joke isn't a proper rebuttal. Somehow I think there are plenty of people who manage to go to an Apple Store without their wives breaking the bank on shoes.

countertrolling & the trolltalk.com crew (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#36645874)

Cheat the moderation system - here's where countertrolling explains what he's doing while he trolls others (to his fellow trolltalk.com friends) to downmod them via his registered account, logout, & ac stalk, harass, and troll them:

http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=2245866&cid=36491652 [slashdot.org]

Here's where countertrolling's "troll mechanics" for downmodding others is explained in detail by someone that got sick of it happening:

http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=2271908&cid=36579618 [slashdot.org]

As far as bogus up moderations, the trolltalk.com bunch (tomhudson, countertrolling, & others) collectively "team up" to upmod one another, in teams, as favors to one another.

(Talk about low, and bogus!)

---

In fact, here's what countertrolling says about it, why he does it, and to all of us here:

"What the skiddies here don't understand is that I don't give a shit about dumbass 'karma' on the internet.. I'm here for the jollies with nothing to lose or fight for.. watching them destroy their world.. They can go absolutely nuts as far as I'm concerned.. It's nothing but pure entertainment (and data points) for me and mine... Tragicomedy is probably the best word I can think of to describe it" - by countertrolling (1585477) on Thursday June 30, @10:26AM (#36622502) Journal

QUOTED VERBATIM FROM -> http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=2281808&cid=36622502 [slashdot.org]

Sounds like a sick individual to me.

(Don't get lured into their journals either. That's their main goal along with getting these data points that way. Just ignore them and they will be powerless before you know it (no mod points)).

Re:"a simpler way to find applications"... (1)

Cinder6 (894572) | about 3 years ago | (#36645366)

From what I've been able to gather from reading on forums:

Yes, you can burn it to a disc, or put it on a flash drive, or whatever you want. It also makes a restore partition on your drive by default (apparently some 650MB, but I'm not sure on that--seems like it would have to be bigger) from which you can reinstall OS X (or boot into Safari-only mode). Wish it wasn't mandatory, but I could see it being useful--and you can go and delete it if you want to.

And you can apparently go to an Apple Store for a super-fast download--but that's obviously not going to be an option for a lot of people, and if you're in an area where you can't get fast internet, you're probably nowhere near an Apple Store in the first place.

Re:"a simpler way to find applications"... (2)

ActionDesignStudios (877390) | about 3 years ago | (#36645492)

There is a DMG within the download that you can restore to a DVD or flash drive and it works fine, yes. The recovery partition boots a minimal version of OS X in which you can restore Lion but you have to log in to your Apple account and download it which makes the recovery partition a lot less useful.

Re:"a simpler way to find applications"... (1)

Jane Q. Public (1010737) | about 3 years ago | (#36645894)

Restore partitions are garbage. They promote overconfidence and make people neglect to back things up. Then, when they restore, presto! Not just their data but all their applications are gone, except for the apps on the original install disk.

Re:"a simpler way to find applications"... (1)

Tubal-Cain (1289912) | about 3 years ago | (#36645372)

They all used to be in the applications and utilities folder.

It's the ones that you don't have that need to be easier to find.

Re:"a simpler way to find applications"... (1)

R3d M3rcury (871886) | about 3 years ago | (#36645376)

They all used to be in the applications and utilities folder. What could possibly be simpler than that?

Go to the the "Spotlight" menu and type the first few letters of the application name.

That said, I'm not convinced that LaunchPad is going to be all that useful when you have a few dozen applications installed--kind of like how the iPhone tends to get messy when you have a few dozen applications installed.

But don't worry--you can still go to the Applications and Utilities folders.

Re:"a simpler way to find applications"... (2, Insightful)

SilentChasm (998689) | about 3 years ago | (#36645378)

And how screwed are the people who just don't happen to have fast internet?

Have you seen how large OS and Application updates are now? Pretty much everything seems to require a fast connection. Even slashdot has bloated (58,633 B for an article with 898,406 B of inline elements, adding up to almost 1MB for a single page). It seems that slow connections are no longer really considered that much when people design stuff. Even slow DSL (although still "broadband") is now causing problems with not being fast enough sometimes.

Therefore I would say the people who just don't happen to have fast internet are screwed.

Re:"a simpler way to find applications"... (1)

hairyfeet (841228) | about 3 years ago | (#36645432)

That is why Apple is allowing you to download on their connection at the Apple store and why we Windows guys have WSUS Offline [wsusoffline.net] that lets you have EVERY version of Windows from XP 32bit to Windows 7 64 bit plus all the office versions from XP on up, all either burned to DVD or on a flash stick so all it takes is a single friend/relative with a decent connection. I have been using it for awhile now so I even have the complete Win2K in case I run into one of those that needs the final updates.

So it isn't like anybody is screwed here if they don't have fast net. If you have an Apple laptop I'm sure you know where the Apple store is so that is taken care of and WSUS Offline is "clicky clicky" simple so Windows is covered too. I don't know about Linux but I assume they have something similar as well.

But lets face it if you are still on dialup I don't think you really need to worry about updates as I don't you'll be downloading any big malware packages for either OS before you time out anyway. Hell does Apple laptops even come with modems anymore?

Re:"a simpler way to find applications"... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#36645592)

So it isn't like anybody is screwed here if they don't have fast net. If you have an Apple laptop I'm sure you know where the Apple store is ...

I don't know about you, but the closest one to me is about 1500km away. Combine that with an 8GB/mo broadband cap (+$8/GB thereafter) and I'm left highly unimpressed by the download-only distribution.

Re:"a simpler way to find applications"... (1)

Chas (5144) | about 3 years ago | (#36645624)

You're just "not the market they're interested in selling into".

Ain't that fuckin' sweet?

Re:"a simpler way to find applications"... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#36645630)

If you have an Apple laptop I'm sure you know where the Apple store is so that is taken care of and WSUS Offline is "clicky clicky" simple so Windows is covered too. I don't know about Linux but I assume they have something similar as well.

And if you have an iMac you should... what, get a bigger backpack?

Re:"a simpler way to find applications"... (1)

boristhespider (1678416) | about 3 years ago | (#36645686)

Or a flash drive.

1: Go to Apple store.
2: Use one of their computers to download the Lion update.
3: Copy onto a flash drive.
4: Go home.
5: Update computer.

Of course, this is no help if, like the guy commenting above, your nearest Apple store is 1,500km away. There *aren't* even any Apple stores in my country. But Lion is beginning to make me think that when Snow Leopard gets too old and tired to continue I'll be swapping back to Arch, so that's no trouble for me anyway.

Re:"a simpler way to find applications"... (1)

Jeremi (14640) | about 3 years ago | (#36645406)

They all used to be in the applications and utilities folder. What could possibly be simpler than that?

Well, since you asked... what's easier is a "home page" that automatically appears, and automatically contains the icons of all your apps -- similar to how it works on the iPhone/iPad.

I agree it's a bit silly, but if it keeps me from having to tell my grandmother over the phone to "double click on the hard drive icon in the corner of the screen", and then spend the next 10 minutes explaining what a hard drive is, what the icon looks like (who outside of computer geeks knows that internal hard drives look like little silver boxes with a bar code?), and how to double-click on it, then I'm okay with that.

Re:"a simpler way to find applications"... (1)

BrokenHalo (565198) | about 3 years ago | (#36645680)

I agree it's a bit silly, but if it keeps me from having to tell my grandmother over the phone to "double click on the hard drive icon...

You're right, it's very silly indeed when all you have to do is simply put shortcut links to her apps on her desktop.

Re:"a simpler way to find applications"... (1)

beelsebob (529313) | about 3 years ago | (#36645604)

They're still all there. What the AppStore makes easier is putting more things in there.

Re:"a simpler way to find applications"... (1)

node 3 (115640) | about 3 years ago | (#36645782)

Wow, you managed to fail to make sense on many levels again! This isn't reddit, you don't have to live up to your novelty username.

They all used to be in the applications and utilities folder.

Apps that aren't on your computer used to be in those folders?

What could possibly be simpler than that?

Not much, really. But since that's not how it's ever been, the Mac App Store is quite a bit easier than the way things actually were before. Before, you had to go to the store and browse the shelves, or order discs online, or buy online from various different digital storefronts.

And now it forces users to open an online account with Apple. That's not very nice..

Better to have just one sign-in, than to have to manage many. And it's quite nice to have it be one that hundreds of millions of people already have. I suppose there is a minority of customers for whom this isn't "very nice", but they'll manage.

There's no mention in the article, does it come down as a burnable iso? And how screwed are the people who just don't happen to have fast internet?

Yes, it comes as a burnable, well, not ISO, but DMG. And most people in the target audience have at least reasonably decent internet connections (or access to such a connection) such that a couple gigs isn't some horrible torment. This is at least a reasonable point, there will be a very small percentage of people who want Lion, but don't have sufficient internet access to readily purchase it. Lion doesn't run on 64-bit systems either. Apple apparently isn't too afraid of leaving people behind if it moves the current state of the art forward.

countertrolling & the trolltalk.com crew (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#36645856)

Cheat the moderation system - here's where countertrolling explains what he's doing while he trolls others (to his fellow trolltalk.com friends) to downmod them via his registered account, logout, & ac stalk, harass, and troll them:

http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=2245866&cid=36491652 [slashdot.org]

Here's where countertrolling's "troll mechanics" for downmodding others is explained in detail by someone that got sick of it happening:

http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=2271908&cid=36579618 [slashdot.org]

As far as bogus up moderations, the trolltalk.com bunch (tomhudson, countertrolling, & others) collectively "team up" to upmod one another, in teams, as favors to one another.

(Talk about low, and bogus!)

---

In fact, here's what countertrolling says about it, why he does it, and to all of us here:

"What the skiddies here don't understand is that I don't give a shit about dumbass 'karma' on the internet.. I'm here for the jollies with nothing to lose or fight for.. watching them destroy their world.. They can go absolutely nuts as far as I'm concerned.. It's nothing but pure entertainment (and data points) for me and mine... Tragicomedy is probably the best word I can think of to describe it" - by countertrolling (1585477) on Thursday June 30, @10:26AM (#36622502) Journal

QUOTED VERBATIM FROM -> http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=2281808&cid=36622502 [slashdot.org]

Sounds like a sick individual to me.

What comes first, the Lion or the Leopard? (1)

Y-Crate (540566) | about 3 years ago | (#36645308)

With Lion coming from the App Store you need to have OS X installed to install OS X. What happens if you buy a new hard drive? Have your hard drive partition table lose a leg? How do you get 10.7 on your Mac? Apple won't say just yet.

Those who have broken their NDAs suggest there might be workarounds with delving into the .mpkg files and such, or that Apple might force you to install Snow Leopard and then upgrade from there. Neither option is particularly desirable.

Re:What comes first, the Lion or the Leopard? (1, Funny)

whiteboy86 (1930018) | about 3 years ago | (#36645330)

>> ..hard drive partition table lose a leg? How do you get 10.7 on your Mac? Apple won't say just yet.

Easy, you have to buy a new Apple hardware, obviously.

/s

Re:What comes first, the Lion or the Leopard? (1)

pathological liar (659969) | about 3 years ago | (#36645348)

The rumours sites are claiming the latter, that you'll need to install SL first.

Re:What comes first, the Lion or the Leopard? (1)

Bert64 (520050) | about 3 years ago | (#36645360)

Does this mean they will be updating snow leopard to support new hardware?
If you take an old OSX dvd and try to install it on a newer mac, it usually fails to install...

You would assume that at the very least Apple will make install media available for new hardware.

Re:What comes first, the Lion or the Leopard? (1)

beelsebob (529313) | about 3 years ago | (#36645614)

No, it means that as with all new macs, you'll get an system restore DVD/USB stick with the current OS on it.

Re:What comes first, the Lion or the Leopard? (1)

Anubis IV (1279820) | about 3 years ago | (#36645370)

They'll probably do what they've been doing with the MacBook Air for awhile now, and will simply include a USB recovery drive.

Re:What comes first, the Lion or the Leopard? (1)

R3d M3rcury (871886) | about 3 years ago | (#36645398)

What happens if you buy a new hard drive?

Well, the rash assumption is that you're going to want to move stuff from the old hard drive to the new one. So, at least briefly, you'll have two hard drives. Run the installer and tell it to install Mac OS X 10.7 Lion on the new hard drive.

Have your hard drive partition table lose a leg?

Take it to the local Apple Store and have them fix it. And, while you're there, consider throwing out your flaky machine and getting teh new shiny or, at least, a cool cover for your iPad... ;^D

Oh the memories (1)

tftp (111690) | about 3 years ago | (#36645322)

This gold master, does it by any chance have anything to do with Bullfish Interactive or their CEO Phraud Hogslop [wikia.com] ?

Finally (2)

93 Escort Wagon (326346) | about 3 years ago | (#36645420)

People have been focusing on the visual tweaks almost exclusively - but the main thing I'm interested in is Lion finally brings full-disk encryption to us Mac laptop owners.

I kept hoping Truecrypt would offer it, but that feature never made it to the Mac side...

Re:Finally (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#36645482)

My question is...

Who gets to keep the keys?

Re:Finally (3, Insightful)

CAIMLAS (41445) | about 3 years ago | (#36645514)

The big things of interest for OS X to me, as someone who likes efficiency and stability out of his systems, are:

* will they finally fix the horrible threading and context switching implementation so that running something like a spreadsheet program with a large spreadsheet not cause the gnashing of teeth? (This has been a problem since the beginning of 10.x, but I started notcing it around 10.4 with the Intel macs and able to compare apples to apples - ie linux or Windows on the same hardware).
* HFS+ replacement so IO won't be a horrendous bottleneck?
* Better wifi implementation so that the macs I've got to deal with are not the main ones to have signal issues? (Seriously, when macs have more issues with APs than XP, you know you've got issue. You can't completely say it's the hardware, because Linux on the same systems is at least better...)
* will they allow me to do what I want with the 'dock' and the sparse UI elements, or am I restricted to using it how they say I should (particularly as it pertains to multitasking/not multitasking: it doesn't matter if they make that not suck at the techincal level if the UI is still horribly crippled).

Re:Finally (2)

kevinmenzel (1403457) | about 3 years ago | (#36645620)

When it comes to the last point, Apple will NEVER EVER change. The whole "Think Different" mantra is left in the dust by the new "Jobs knows best" theology of Apple.

Re:Finally (1)

93 Escort Wagon (326346) | about 3 years ago | (#36645622)

Better wifi implementation so that the macs I've got to deal with are not the main ones to have signal issues? (Seriously, when macs have more issues with APs than XP, you know you've got issue. You can't completely say it's the hardware, because Linux on the same systems is at least better...)

Interesting, I've had exactly the opposite problem. With the Macs we've got around, wi-fi has been set it and forget it - it always works. The XP/7 laptops seem to consistently have issues with randomly dropping their connections to the access points (well, technically the connections look like they're still there, but the computers just seem unable to send or receive bits for a while...).

Haven't really seen any Linux laptops in the wild, so I can't say how they've fared.

Re:Finally (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#36645786)

I've found wifi to be a little flakey in that it doesn't always reliably report its state. It'll show no problems (or take a long time to report) when it couldn't receive an IP address. Generally though it's reliable. No idea how other operating systems handle this? My other systems run in VMs. I do recall wifi setup in XP being oddly complicated when compared to OS X, but I imagine that Windows 7 has improved on this.

Re:Finally (2, Informative)

Stormwatch (703920) | about 3 years ago | (#36645712)

What do you want to do with the Dock, exactly? A lot of hidden options in OSX can be customized with programs like Tinker Tool, iTweax, OnyX, or Secrets.

Re:Finally (1)

TheRaven64 (641858) | about 3 years ago | (#36645600)

And, more to the point, is DriveVault actually useful yet? I did use it, but it doesn't work properly with Time Machine, so I had to pick between encryption and backups. I chose backups, and when the hard disk in my laptop died I was very glad that I did. Given that most laptops as single-user devices, the sane way of implementing it would have been to have an encrypted disk image on the backup disk that was mounted and then do the normal backup stuff to that while the user is logged in. Instead, they required you to log off and then run the backup as another user, just copying segments of the encrypted disk image.

Re:Finally (1)

93 Escort Wagon (326346) | about 3 years ago | (#36645654)

And, more to the point, is DriveVault actually useful yet? I did use it, but it doesn't work properly with Time Machine, so I had to pick between encryption and backups. I chose backups, and when the hard disk in my laptop died I was very glad that I did. Given that most laptops as single-user devices, the sane way of implementing it would have been to have an encrypted disk image on the backup disk that was mounted and then do the normal backup stuff to that while the user is logged in. Instead, they required you to log off and then run the backup as another user, just copying segments of the encrypted disk image.

I haven't had access to Lion, so I haven't had a chance to try any of this. If what you say is accurate (meaning it's what I end up seeing as well), that'll be quite disappointing. Under those circumstances I'd have to make the same choice you did - but it's rather silly if it's an either/or situation. It sounds like basically the same situation as currently exists with FileVault, which renders it not particularly useful.

My experiences from the last two major OS X updates (meaning 10.5.0 and 10.6.0) has, to some degree, made me think about following the same philosophy I have with Windows updates. Like many other people, with Windows I've found it useful to wait until the first service pack; and with these last two iterations of OS X, in hindsight I would've been better off waiting for 10.x.1 or even 10.x.2. Don't get me wrong... in the long run both Leopard and Snow Leopard were worthwhile upgrades; but their initial releases were by no means problem-free.

Let me clear a few things up for you all. (5, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#36645422)

Posting as AC cause this is NDA stuff.

1) 10.7 can be burned to a DVD or dumped to a USB Flash Key and installed off of. It does NOT require an existing installation of 10.6.8 to INSTALL. You only need an existing 10.6.8 installation to download it- IF you want to get it from the Mac App Store. The relevant file is called "InstallESD.dmg" and weighs in at around 4GB. It is essentially a restore image of what you would otherwise find on a shipping DVD. It comes with what you get off the Mac App Store.

2) 10.7 does NOT REQUIRE AN APPLE ID.

There is NO PROTECTION in 10.7 against piracy. There is NO ONLINE ACTIVATION. There is NO receipt checking through the Mac App Store. For all intensive purposes, it is IDENTICAL to 10.6.8 in that the Mac App Store is just another application in /Applications. The operating system IN NO WAY attempts to verify the legality of your installation, nor does it case.

You can install, configure, and use your machine WITHOUT creating an Apple ID. It is -TOTALLY- optional.

3) 10.7 Server does NOT REQUIRE AN APPLE ID. The Server administration bits come as a single app ("Server.app") that downloads and installs Server Essentials, which is basically all the server side stuff (Open Directory, PostFix, etc). This application does NOT attempt to verify the legality of your "server" NOR DOES IT REQUIRE A SERIAL. Just like #2- if you obtain Server.app from some other place, you can install and use it on a Mac OS X 10.7 system without the need for an Apple ID, or even an internet connection after the Server Essentials packages have been downloaded!

So, please, stop spreading FUD!

10.7 is identical to 10.6. You can clean install it. You don't need 10.6, except for the initial download (which Apple expects you'll do legally- through the Mac App Store). You do not need an Apple ID for anything (you don't loose functionality).

The only thing that has changed- is that Apple is going the digital *distribution* route. They have NOT gone the "digital distribution and locked down DRM and online activation" route.

-AC

Re:Let me clear a few things up for you all. (1)

R3d M3rcury (871886) | about 3 years ago | (#36645498)

10.7 can be burned to a DVD or dumped to a USB Flash Key and installed off of. It does NOT require an existing installation of 10.6.8 to INSTALL.

Uh...doesn't there need to be a Mac OS X installation somewhere if you want to install Mac OS X 10.7 Lion? Otherwise, what's going to magically read your DVD or USB Flash Key? And I rashly assume that you can't run the installer if your machine has booted into 10.5.x...

Re:Let me clear a few things up for you all. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#36645504)

The InstallESD.dmg image that you've burned to DVD (or cloned to your USB stick) is bootable.

Also, to the GP, intents and purposes.

Re:Let me clear a few things up for you all. (5, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#36645546)

(Same AC as GP)

The restore system. InstallESD.dmg contains a bootable version of OS X much like the 10.6 installer. Except things work a little differently now:

1) The installer is split into two stages. The first creates a recovery partition on your disk drive, and dumps the OS X installer and a nifty repair/utility system to it.
2) The second stage occurs after the first has completed. The system reboots onto the fresh recovery partition, and restores the operating system off it.

The difference between a clean install and an install-from-your-existing-system is only the first stage. If you're installing from 10.6.x, then you're running a tool that does #1 under your existing OS and then reboots to perform #2. If you're installing from a USB key or DVD-R, then the bootable system on the disk is performing step #1 for you, then rebooting to continue with #2.

The installer might just work under 10.5, I haven't checked. Apple says you need 10.6.x to download Lion (which you do). If you already have the Lion *.app bundle saved somewhere else (this is the same bundle that contains the aforementioned InstallESD.dmg file), then you might be able to copy it to a 10.5 OS and run it from there. The only reason why this wouldn't work is if Apple is checking for it and actively denying attempts; or if 10.5 is lacking some runtime component or framework that the *.app installer requires.

Again, the situation is far more flexible and far less 1984 then people are currently freaking about. The only thing that has changed is the (primary) method of distribution. In fact, given that Server doesn't even need a serial anymore (and doesn't attempt to authenticate with the Mac App Store- that would be stupid), things have gotten considerably simpler (anyone remember the serialnumberd issues in 10.6 where a dual-homed server would see itself and invalidate it's license?)...

-AC

Re:Let me clear a few things up for you all. (1)

fnj (64210) | about 3 years ago | (#36645902)

Why do you say you need to be running 10.6 to download 10.6.8? What if you only had 10.5? 10.1? What if, by some happenstance, your only computer with a hard disk that still booted was Windows or Linux?

Re:Let me clear a few things up for you all. (1)

fnj (64210) | about 3 years ago | (#36645908)

s/10.6.8/10.7/
sigh, it's very early

Re:Let me clear a few things up for you all. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#36645940)

Can the space allocated to the recovery partition during the install process be claimed back once the installation finishes?

Re:Let me clear a few things up for you all. (4, Informative)

RedBear (207369) | about 3 years ago | (#36645626)

10.7 can be burned to a DVD or dumped to a USB Flash Key and installed off of. It does NOT require an existing installation of 10.6.8 to INSTALL.

Uh...doesn't there need to be a Mac OS X installation somewhere if you want to install Mac OS X 10.7 Lion? Otherwise, what's going to magically read your DVD or USB Flash Key? And I rashly assume that you can't run the installer if your machine has booted into 10.5.x...

Umm, no. You are very confused. Unless that was meant as a joke. How could anyone ever install an operating system if you needed an operating system installed to install an operating system? Google "BIOS" and "bootable DVD".

Every OS X intall disc has been a bootable image (already containing a fully bootable copy of OS X) that allows installation onto a clean hard drive. The Lion installer contains the same standard bootable disc image. The only difference is that the computer can apparently be booted from that disc image while it is still just sitting on the hard drive (if you are running Snow Leopard 10.6.8). That is, Lion REQUIRES no external boot media, but it can still be used from external boot media if you so choose, and if you have the very simple knowledge to open Disk Utility on ANY Mac and "restore" the DMG file onto a DVD or USB flash drive or external USB or FireWire or Thunderbolt hard drive. Anyone who "administrates" Macs should already know how to do this, so I'm really not sure why so many Mac admins are freaking out about the no-media policy. Some "Real" Mac admins are probably out there somewhere NetInstalling the new Lion install image on hundreds of machines at the same time as we speak.

If you are running anything prior to Snow Leopard 10.6.8, you will of course have to either upgrade your machine to Snow Leopard first or or use external install media just as you would with a clean machine. Either way, not really a big deal. Seriously.

Re:Let me clear a few things up for you all. (0)

F.Ultra (1673484) | about 3 years ago | (#36645938)

>How could anyone ever install an operating system if you needed an operating system installed to install an operating system?
Good luck buying Apple hardware without a preinstalled os...

Re:Let me clear a few things up for you all. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#36645690)

For all intensive purposes ...

INTENTS AND purposes not INTENSIVE purposes. The rest of your text suggests that English probably isn't your second language, so that's not an excuse. If you're going to use the language, don't abuse it.

Re:Let me clear a few things up for you all. (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#36645714)

For all intensive purposes

Holy shit. No.

What the fuck.

'Intents and purposes.'

Re:Let me clear a few things up for you all. (3, Interesting)

Raenex (947668) | about 3 years ago | (#36645738)

Wrecking havoc on the English language.

Just go to the MAC App Store..... (1, Troll)

theVarangian (1948970) | about 3 years ago | (#36645734)

... aw crap! ... there is no Mac App Store access for my country. Should I do what the local Apple dealer is telling me which is go to a gift card scalper? The one they recommend charges $62.50 for a $50 giftcard. The bastards were happy enough to sell me a Mac but now I'm stuck dealing with scalpers to get OS updates. It was bad enough having to shell out giftcard money for XCode which used to be freely downloadable. I didn't really care that much either that my country has not been 'blessed' with an iOS App Store by saint Steve, I don't buy that much iPhone software anyway but the whole Mac App Store concept simply sucks ass.

Re:Let me clear a few things up for you all. (5, Informative)

Jane Q. Public (1010737) | about 3 years ago | (#36645914)

This is not criticism. I am taking the opportunity to point this out because it is a pet peeve of mine. So I'm saying this for my own selfish reasons, not in order to criticize or to troll. Anyway:

The phrase is not "for all intensive purposes". It is "for all intents AND purposes."

Everybody who did not already know that, please take note.

Thank you for your attention.

Re:Let me clear a few things up for you all. (0)

Pascal Sartoretti (454385) | about 3 years ago | (#36645950)

They have NOT gone the "digital distribution and locked down DRM and online activation" route.

Not YET ?

That leaves Hughesnet users out. (5, Interesting)

JohnG (93975) | about 3 years ago | (#36645484)

I am stuck with Hughesnet, due to living in the boonies. They impose a 425 megabyte limit on my downloads even at the $100 a month plan. The only time it is unlimited is between 2am-7am, which I'm betting isn't enough time to grab an entire OSX distribution. Just getting XCode and the iOS SDK became a race against time once the file hit the 4gb range. I guess I can stay up until 2, then set an alarm for 7 to pause the Mac App Store download until 2 am the next morning. But still, I'd really like to just pay a few extra bucks and have them ship me a DVD. It doesn't even have to come in a fancy box.

Re:That leaves Hughesnet users out. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#36645678)

I don't understand, don't you get a URL that you can download from, and resume your download at specific times?

And a large part of Australia... (2)

namdanog (448907) | about 3 years ago | (#36645718)

In most cases people who have "unlimited" plans get traffic shaping to 64KB after a couple of GB are downloaded, or they get charged extra. I wonder how this is going to pan out for those users who normally never exceed their limits, and naïvely think that upgrading the OS would fall within normal usage patterns.

Re:That leaves Hughesnet users out. (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#36645892)

I am stuck with Hughesnet, due to living in the boonies. They impose a 425 megabyte limit on my downloads even at the $100 a month plan. The only time it is unlimited is between 2am-7am, which I'm betting isn't enough time to grab an entire OSX distribution. Just getting XCode and the iOS SDK became a race against time once the file hit the 4gb range.
I guess I can stay up until 2, then set an alarm for 7 to pause the Mac App Store download until 2 am the next morning. But still, I'd really like to just pay a few extra bucks and have them ship me a DVD. It doesn't even have to come in a fancy box.

Your options:
1. Download at work.
2. Download at friend's house.
3. Download at relative's house.
4. Move.
5. Raise hell with Hughesnet.
7. Raise hell with Apple.
8. Cry.

Not "download only" (1, Insightful)

glitch0 (859137) | about 3 years ago | (#36645528)

Apple will still offer the disk in stores, Google it. You'll find that Apple employees have confirmed that users with bandwidth restrictions or users without an internet connection can still update by buying a disk in store.

Sounds like a good reason to call apple suport (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#36645598)

Just say you have Dial-up... Ask how good the drivers are for Win7 with you mac?

Lion breaking Time Machine backups to NAS devices? (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 years ago | (#36645880)

Read posts about Lion using AFP newer features for its Time Machine implementation that are not available in most NAS boxes.
NetAFP appear to complain lack of contribution / paying customers among the NAS manufacturers and will release their current code only as closed source. Open source implementation will follow later but it is not said when: http://www.netafp.com/open-letter-to-the-netatalk-community-501
So maybe wait with upgrade plans until this is resolved and vendors provide updated AFP support.

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