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Creating a Mac OS X 10.7 Lion Bootable Flash Drive

timothy posted more than 2 years ago | from the no-you-probably-can't-put-it-on-your-netbook dept.

Media 206

WankerWeasel writes "With the release of Mac OS X 10.7 Lion this month, Apple will no longer offer a bootable installer DVD and is making 10.7 Lion available only through the App Store. This guide provides quick instructions on how to use the OS X 10.7 Lion installer to create a bootable flash drive (instructions for making a bootable DVD are also included on the blog)."

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206 comments

So how do you install a new hard drive? (2, Insightful)

wbhauck (629723) | more than 2 years ago | (#36686840)

Does Apple provide a way to replace a hard drive? Without access to a booted system you can't download anything. Unless they want you to bring in your machine ...

Re:So how do you install a new hard drive? (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36686882)

Does Apple provide a way to replace a hard drive? Without access to a booted system you can't download anything.

Unless they want you to bring in your machine ...

Apple computers have EFI, meaning you could possibly download Lion without being booted.

Re:So how do you install a new hard drive? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36686934)

Not only that, if you're the technically-inclined sort who would be replacing a hard drive yourself rather than taking it in to the shop, you can just as easily boot your machine from an external (FW/USB/Thunderbolt) drive with OS X installed on it, and use that to launch the installer. I have an external with an installation of OS X and assorted utilities and tools (diagnostic/repair) that I use on a regular basis to maintain and fix Macs. It's like a behemoth emergency boot disk, in that it could feasibly run as the primary OS if need be (albeit slowly due to I/O rates) until the internal drive is up and running.

Re:So how do you install a new hard drive? (3, Informative)

Lunix Nutcase (1092239) | more than 2 years ago | (#36686884)

Yes, the same way every other OEM provides a way. Either open up the case in the case of a desktop or unscrew and open up the hatch for the hard drive bay on the laptop. It's extremely easy.

Re:So how do you install a new hard drive? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36687010)

I don't know if that's a Whoooosh or a troll. I'm guessing the latter.

Re:So how do you install a new hard drive? (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36687164)

You've obviously never had to replace the hard drive on an iMac...

Re:So how do you install a new hard drive? (1)

Culture20 (968837) | more than 2 years ago | (#36687504)

You've obviously never had to replace the hard drive on an iMac...

The white ones suck due to the heat shielding, but the silver ones are no worse than a laptop GFX card replacement. Still, worse than just popping open a hatch and replacing a drive.

Re:So how do you install a new hard drive? (0)

Moryath (553296) | more than 2 years ago | (#36687868)

It's the Macbook line that are absolutely fucking stupid to try to replace a hard drive on.

I mean seriously. I have to take the entire fucking clamshell off to get to the drive? Fuck you, Apple. Even HP has learned their lesson about doing something so annoying, the only company other than Apple still doing it is Sony.

Do you REALLY want to be known as making stuff just as crappy as Sony, Apple?

Re:So how do you install a new hard drive? (1)

Culture20 (968837) | more than 2 years ago | (#36687970)

Yeah, I would have loved it if Apple had used some of their leftover Xserve stock and made the new iMac HDDs user serviceable (and cooler) by putting them in Xserve style drive trays (preferably "lockable" with a kensington lock; they still haven't figured out how to lock the RAM). Instead, they went the opposite route.

Re:So how do you install a new hard drive? (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36688714)

It's the Macbook line that are absolutely fucking stupid to try to replace a hard drive on.

I mean seriously. I have to take the entire fucking clamshell off to get to the drive? Fuck you, Apple. Even HP has learned their lesson about doing something so annoying, the only company other than Apple still doing it is Sony.

I'm having a difficult time connecting this rant to the hardware. It's pretty simple, remove eight screws and the entire bottom plate pops off, then you just remove & replace the drive. Maybe you are thinking of past models? The current "unibody" MacBook line (whether plastic or aluminum) design has easy access to RAM and the HDD, if you ask me.

Do you REALLY want to be known as making stuff just as crappy as Sony, Apple?

Let me let you in on a little secret about how the real world works: Serviceability is not the top design priority, ever. For any of these companies. Goal #1a is optimizing production line costs. Goal #1b is improving reliability so that once it rolls off the production line, it never comes back for any reason. Once it does come back, they've probably already lost money, so they tend to obsess about that much more than making it easier to fix when it does come back.

Rant and rave and call the resulting products "crappy" all you want; they're not going to put your ideas about what makes a computer design good in front of theirs. Theirs have the benefit of making them more money. And despite what you say, it doesn't really hurt their rep at all because most people don't want to open the case.

Re:So how do you install a new hard drive? (2)

blueg3 (192743) | more than 2 years ago | (#36686908)

They provide a system recovery disk or flash drive with the computer.

Re:So how do you install a new hard drive? (0)

Culture20 (968837) | more than 2 years ago | (#36686946)

I presume you're referring to the new magic hardware DRM that Apple uses for their HDDs? They got tired of people replacing iMac HDDs themselves and made a HDD version of their patented screw. I can't wait until only Apple Mice and Keyboards will have drivers.

Re:So how do you install a new hard drive? (1)

Lunix Nutcase (1092239) | more than 2 years ago | (#36686972)

Yeah, I mean you have to buy yourself a 4 dollar screwdriver [amazon.com] to unscrew it. OH THE HUMANITY!!!!!

Re:So how do you install a new hard drive? (0)

jd2112 (1535857) | more than 2 years ago | (#36687062)

Yeah, I mean you have to buy yourself a 4 dollar screwdriver [amazon.com] to unscrew it. OH THE HUMANITY!!!!!

Plus $25 (just a guess, too lazy to look it up) for overnight shipping. Waiting 5-7 days for a screwdriver isn't an option when you have a crashed hard drive.

Re:So how do you install a new hard drive? (0)

Lunix Nutcase (1092239) | more than 2 years ago | (#36687414)

Plus $25 (just a guess, too lazy to look it up) for overnight shipping. Waiting 5-7 days for a screwdriver isn't an option when you have a crashed hard drive.

Only if you're an idiot. The point of the example was to show that the screwdriver you need is just a couple of bucks.

Re:So how do you install a new hard drive? (4, Interesting)

Culture20 (968837) | more than 2 years ago | (#36687290)

I believe you misunderstood me. The new HDDs are _like_ the new screws. New Apple HDDs don't use the new screws (that I know of), but they do use proprietary firmware and hardware that makes thermal sensors on the Mobo go crazy if the new firmware isn't present. So you have to buy only Apple HDDs (which have in recent history been nothing more than SATA drives that cost twice to three times as much; now at least there's a reason for the increased cost, albeit a bad reason). They'll do it with RAM, keyboards, mice, graphics cards, etc. soon enough.

Re:So how do you install a new hard drive? (0)

Lunix Nutcase (1092239) | more than 2 years ago | (#36687398)

And yet I've swapped out drives in my girlfriend's Mac Book Air with a Intel SSD and it worked just fine with the hardware and thermal sensors. And I'm not the only one who has done this with no issues. So, no, you don't need to buy Apple HDDs or whatever nonsense you are spewing.

Re:So how do you install a new hard drive? (3, Informative)

Culture20 (968837) | more than 2 years ago | (#36687584)

So, no, you don't need to buy Apple HDDs or whatever nonsense you are spewing.

Please tell that to angry iMac Fans:
https://discussions.apple.com/thread/3053942?start=0&tstart=0 [apple.com]
http://blog.macsales.com/10146-apple-further-restricts-upgrade-options-on-new-imacs [macsales.com]
http://www.macrumors.com/2011/05/12/apple-restricts-hard-drive-replacements-on-new-imacs/ [macrumors.com]

Re:So how do you install a new hard drive? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36687926)

If this is SSDs, some older sandforce devices liked to report drive lifetime on the SMART temperature values, for some odd reason. Server boards tended to hate that and beep a lot, as the temp would read 255C.

Re:So how do you install a new hard drive? (1)

UnknowingFool (672806) | more than 2 years ago | (#36688294)

My research shows that you have to merely buy from the same manufacturer as the previous HDD and not only from Apple. It sounds more alarmist though if you use the "only Apple HDDs" rant.

Re:So how do you install a new hard drive? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36688386)

My research shows that you have to merely buy from the same manufacturer as the previous HDD and not only from Apple. It sounds more alarmist though if you use the "only Apple HDDs" rant.

OK, provide a link to where one of these new-fangled drives can be purchased, then.

Re:So how do you install a new hard drive? (1)

UnknowingFool (672806) | more than 2 years ago | (#36688612)

So far I have only found them on obscure sites like Amazon (must be a South American company), Newegg (sounds like a hippie cult to me), and BestBuy (they are full of themselves with that name). Of course I could show you how to find them using this thing called the Interweb [macsales.com] but it's much harder than people think. I mean it took me all of 15 seconds to find them.

Re:So how do you install a new hard drive? (1)

guruevi (827432) | more than 2 years ago | (#36688344)

And yet many have replaced their hard drives (yours truly included) with SSD's or other gear and had no problems.

First of all, Apple doesn't "block" you from using other hard drives nor do they use any specific firmware. The only thing that happens is that your fans may spin a bit harder (and they're very quiet to begin with) and that the optional Apple Hardware Test may fail on 1 test reporting a bad temperature sensor.

The issue seems to be (and you can read this in several other forums and blogs as well) is in the way that some hard disk manufacturers report back temperature to the system. It appears that the hard drives Apple uses report back temperature using the spare wiring in SATA cables. So if you get the same brand and model hard drive (not necessarily capacity), people don't have any issues. Also certain SSD's don't seem to give any issues. The main problem is that the industry hasn't yet standardized how to report data using these extra wiring and some manufacturers go ahead and implement it however they want.

There is also a fix for it as well (short the 2 wires) and somebody developed a simple temperature chip that replicates the functionality found on these new hard drives for older/other hard drives.

If somebody swaps out their hard drive and the iMac doesn't work anymore, that would be an issue with how they handled the 'repair' (most likely they didn't correctly put it back together), not Apple blocking their upgrade abilities or inhibiting their dexterity.

Re:So how do you install a new hard drive? (5, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36688718)

This is one of the problems with owning a Mac. Everyone wants to see them fall.

So when one site states (through a mistake of their own making) that you cannot replace an iMac's hard drive with anything but an Apple-supplied drive, it goes viral, everyone who doesn't own a Mac (and some Mac users) want to believe it SO DAMNED HARD that it becomes repeated as truth, modified, passed on, and changed into various forms of APPLE ARE DOING THIS INSANE THING OMG.

Hint as to the truth: I replaced my brand new two week old 27" iMac's 1TB WD hard drive with a 3TB Seagate, and it didn't make the thermal sensors go crazy, it didn't refuse to boot, it didn't run at half speed, and it certainly didn't send DRM monkeys flying to Apple to report me. I closed up the iMac, re-installed the OS, and went on with my business as normal... then I had just about every Mac owner who hadn't done it themselves ask how I got around Apple's HD restrictions.

Lies last a long time when they're popular.

Re:So how do you install a new hard drive? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36688018)

I believe the screw you are referring to (admittedly too lazy to check), or at least a very odd screw Apple has been using lately, is so old the patent has actually ran out. It is obscure though, with only a few places to buy the required tool.

Re:So how do you install a new hard drive? (1)

SleepyHappyDoc (813919) | more than 2 years ago | (#36687468)

You don't. The new iMacs have a non-standard hard drive that must be replaced by an Apple technician.

Re:So how do you install a new hard drive? (1)

UnknowingFool (672806) | more than 2 years ago | (#36688320)

Um no they just have to be a newer HDD from the same manufacturer. It it was a Seagate, you replace it with another Seagate. If it was a WD, replace it with another WD. The Internet tells you exact what will and won't work.

Too fast... (0)

DominoCo (1664315) | more than 2 years ago | (#36686868)

Probably I will switch to PC because they made a cr.ppy Final Cut Pro X.

Re:Too fast... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36687068)

Or just stick with the version you have until you find a suitable alternative, that is if you really do use Final Cut Pro and are not just a troll, or are just an idiot who throws the baby out with the bathwater.

Already have a bootable USB driver for MacOS (2)

jedidiah (1196) | more than 2 years ago | (#36686876)

I expect the stumbling block here is creating some sort of normal looking install media for MacOS Lion.

Once you've got that, it's actually pretty simple to target any USB storage device. Just install it like you would a normal disk. Pretty simple stuff.

And In Other News... (-1, Troll)

MightyMartian (840721) | more than 2 years ago | (#36686898)

And in other news, Apple has announced that it will no longer use lube when it rams its member up fanbois asses.

Re:And In Other News... (-1, Troll)

bonch (38532) | more than 2 years ago | (#36686994)

I wish you were a funny or interesting troll, but apparently all you could think of was a tired lube reference and intentional "fanbois" typo. The image that immediately comes to mind when reading a post like yours is that it was written by an angry, sweaty neckbeard who believes they are an operating system warrior participating in forum battles on the internet against crazy nutjobs who dare to like Apple products.

P.S. OS X Lion is really good.

Tired of all of the wanking about Lion (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36686936)

I'm kind of tired of all this wanking about how apple is evil because you have to download it from the app store, can't do a clean install, etc. The download contains a bootable image, burn it to a cd just as you would with any Linux Distro and clean install it on your target machine. If your target machine happens to have a blank HD (Hackintosh) it will still work. If you don't have 10.6 and app store running on your target machine, then you could download it on someone else's. If you don't want an apple id, are on AOL dialup, etc. you could still get it in person at an apple store the old fashioned way. If you live in an igloo and hunt sea lions, then you just might be SOL. In that case, I will gladly trade you my lion for some steaks.

Re:Tired of all of the wanking about Lion (3, Insightful)

boristhespider (1678416) | more than 2 years ago | (#36687082)

Or perhaps you don't live anywhere near an Apple store -- you do realise that there are countries in the world with only one or two, or even none whatsoever? And that some of those are actually big Apple markets? Like Scandinavia where every monkey and his uncle has an iPhone but there are basically no Apple stores? And perhaps you have capped broadband, with a 4gig download taking a massive chunk out of the monthly limit? Perhaps you both live in a country without an Apple store *and* have capped broadband or, horror of horrors, dialup internet?

It wouldn't take much for Apple to have just released this the normal way in addition to the Mac App Store. But no, they went about it this way, intentionally alienating a section of their market. Not a very large or profitable section, mind, which is why they don't give a shit. Likewise with ditching Rosetta.

Re:Tired of all of the wanking about Lion (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36687522)

APP STORE, not apple store

Re:Tired of all of the wanking about Lion (1)

boristhespider (1678416) | more than 2 years ago | (#36687574)

From the original post: "If you don't want an apple id, are on AOL dialup, etc. you could still get it in person at an apple store the old fashioned way."

Fuck's sake. Learn to read. And if you assumed I was just talking about the App store, what part of "And perhaps you have capped broadband, with a 4gig download taking a massive chunk out of the monthly limit?" seems confusing?

Leader, not a follower (0, Offtopic)

MonsterTrimble (1205334) | more than 2 years ago | (#36686968)

Linux has had this option for ages. How often does Apple play catch up with the OSS community?

Re:Leader, not a follower (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36687080)

Knocking someone for a feature they didn't think of first. Oh! The originality.

Apple has had this for years (0)

hellfire (86129) | more than 2 years ago | (#36687298)

You got early points for trying to platform bash, which is always popular here, but you're missing the point of the article, and deserve a quick demodding. The news here is not that Apple magically now has an option that it didn't have before, but instead how to specifically do this for Lion, since Lion doesn't come on a disc like previous versions. On previous versions I'd mount the CD and the USB drive, and basically do an install onto the USB drive directly (there may be a couple other minor steps but I've not done it on a USB drive in a while, I prefer a bootable firewire drive). Without a disc, the news is "what is the new way to create a bootable USB drive." If you had Googled this you would have seen Mac has had this option in some form for years.

Besides, it is true that Linux had this option before Windows or Mac OS years ago, but that's not the point either. Lion news is making the rounds, and nerds want to know how to do things like this. That's all this is. That makes your comments meaningless and useless.

Re:Apple has had this for years (1)

jedidiah (1196) | more than 2 years ago | (#36687388)

> but instead how to specifically do this for Lion, since Lion doesn't come on a disc like previous versions.

Write the disk image to an actual CD.

That's kind of like what Linux has been doing since pretty much forever.

You can create your own private "app store" with Linux too.

Re:Leader, not a follower (1, Flamebait)

Globe199 (442245) | more than 2 years ago | (#36687344)

Apple just invented this option. Linux never had it. Apple invented it because I saw in an Apple commercial that it's a cool new feature that they just invented.

Re:Leader, not a follower (0)

Duradin (1261418) | more than 2 years ago | (#36687480)

So when Linux gets usability for "normal" people can we point out that Apple has had that for ages? (Although waiting until the heat death of the universe for that to happen will take awhile so I better make note of this on something rather durable.)

Re:Leader, not a follower (0)

bmo (77928) | more than 2 years ago | (#36687738)

>So when Linux gets usability for "normal" people

OH THIS ARGUMENT AGAIN.

Let me tell you about Uncle Joe.

Uncle Joe really isn't my uncle. We just call him that. He's a greenhorn from The Old Country - Madeira. He's a machinist. His formal education only went to the 8'th grade in Madeira.

About 4 years ago he asked me about Linux. I said "sure, but you gotta understand that it's different" and I installed Ubuntu Dapper. After receiving not much feedback, I asked him later how he was getting along with it. He said "I don't see how it's supposedly difficult, it's like DOS and Windows."

He has since upgraded his computer and done his own installs in the meantime. He even went so far as to tell the salesdroid at Worst Buy that "no, I don't need Windows Ultimate, I'm going to install Linux" which he did.

If you cannot operate Linux these days, this means you are not as smart as a 50-something Portuguese immigrant with an 8'th grade education.

Have a nice day.

--
BMO

Re:Leader, not a follower (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36687746)

Yes, but Apple has had the "software people actually want to use" feature for much longer. When will the OSS community be catching up with that one?

Great Artists Steal (1)

sunfly (1248694) | more than 2 years ago | (#36688150)

Apple has stolen many great ideas over the years.

"Good artists copy; great artists steal." - Steve Jobs.

Although he is misquoting Picasso - "Lesser artists borrow; great artists steal", which some believe Picasso stole from someone else.

There is really very little original anymore, but sorting through the rubble of knowledge and knowing what to use and what to throw away takes great skill.

rank speculation (1, Insightful)

sribe (304414) | more than 2 years ago | (#36687022)

With the release of Mac OS X 10.7 Lion this month, Apple will no longer offer a bootable installer DVD and is making 10.7 Lion available only through the App Store.

Apple only announced that Lion would be available through the Mac App Store. They did not annouce anything else. All commentary on whether or not you will be able to burn a bootable disk, whether or not you will be able to purchase physical media, and so on, is merely uninformed speculation.

Re:rank speculation (4, Informative)

adamstew (909658) | more than 2 years ago | (#36687434)

Apple has said, quite explicitly, that Lion will ONLY be available in the App store. They mentioned this as part of the WWDC keynote.

Re:rank speculation (1)

sribe (304414) | more than 2 years ago | (#36687996)

I was there. I heard them. It will only be available for purchase via the app store. They did not say ***anything*** at all about bootable disks, whether/how you could burn one, whether there would be any kind of recovery disk available, and so on. You, like the OP, are extrapolating based on your own assumptions.

Re:rank speculation (1)

CheerfulMacFanboy (1900788) | more than 2 years ago | (#36688200)

Apple has said, quite explicitly, that Lion will ONLY be available in the App store. They mentioned this as part of the WWDC keynote.

So new Macs will never come with Lion?

Re:rank speculation (1)

homesnatch (1089609) | more than 2 years ago | (#36688666)

Those of us in the Apple Dev program have already burnt a copy of the Lion GM. It comes as a DMG file. If you want to put it on a USB key or DVD (dual layer), it is up to you.

Re:rank speculation (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36687442)

I guess I didn't read things like "Instead of distributing the OS by optical disc, as in the past, OS X Lion will be available exclusively by download from the Mac App Store for $29" (http://arstechnica.com/apple/news/2011/06/mac-os-x-lion-to-arrive-in-july-via-mac-app-store.ars). Unless your definition of the word "exclusively" is different from mine, or you're privy to information Ars weren't back in June.

Link slashotted (1)

Fudge Factor 3000 (572132) | more than 2 years ago | (#36687024)

I thought these things didn't happen anymore!

Re:Link slashotted (1)

Urban Garlic (447282) | more than 2 years ago | (#36687256)

Indeed, but if you google "OS X Lion boot disk" (not quoted, although that would probably work too), you'll find that the same instructions are all over the place. Basically, download the Lion installer, dig around inside it for a .dmg file, burn that, and you're done.

No DVD for upgrade, but probably for new computers (2)

perpenso (1613749) | more than 2 years ago | (#36687074)

Apple will no longer offer a bootable installer DVD ...

Note that everyone is talking about the 10.7 ***upgrade***. If you are buying a new mac with 10.7 preinstalled you will probably have DVD media to restore your system.

Re:No DVD for upgrade, but probably for new comput (2)

frizop (831236) | more than 2 years ago | (#36687102)

Didn't they say it was going to be a USB Thumb drive?

Re:No DVD for upgrade, but probably for new comput (1)

TheLandyman (1130027) | more than 2 years ago | (#36687196)

For the Air it would have to be... but why not standardize. Great opportunity here for Apple.

Re:No DVD for upgrade, but probably for new comput (1)

jedidiah (1196) | more than 2 years ago | (#36687404)

Yeah, great to replace an optical disk that is cheap enough to be disposable with something that isn't quite so dirt cheap anymore.

Re:No DVD for upgrade, but probably for new comput (1)

Jezza (39441) | more than 2 years ago | (#36687560)

Err, for consumers it's better - installing from USB thumb drive is FAR faster... Sure, it costs a little more for Apple to supply it.

But here's an idea, when they do Mac OS X 10.8 it would be really easy to write that image over your install USB to keep it current.

Re:No DVD for upgrade, but probably for new comput (1)

perpenso (1613749) | more than 2 years ago | (#36688316)

For the Air it would have to be... but why not standardize. Great opportunity here for Apple.

The restore media may have different contents depending on the product family, more than the operating system may be included. My several year old media seems product family specific. Even if the media is universal they could save a lot of money by using less expensive DVDs for the majority of the computers to be sold.

Pure BS and FUD (5, Informative)

javab0y (708376) | more than 2 years ago | (#36687138)

Apple knows they cannot allow a non-bootable OS. If your drive crashes, WTF are you going to do? Anyways... lets get to the real deal. The downloadable version of Mac OS X lion has a bootable DMG in the Contents/Shared Resources directory.Its called InstallESD.dmg. Simply open DiskUtility and burn that to DVD, then you have a bootable disk.

Re:Pure BS and FUD (2)

boristhespider (1678416) | more than 2 years ago | (#36687194)

It's BS and FUD to you, certainly - any of us here know (or should know) that the download includes an image for a bootable DVD. But how many normal Mac users are going to know that? In all honesty I don't know how well publicised this is. I read the tech press so I've known it for a while, but if I asked someone like my dad? I'm not so sure. Then their drive goes down, their computer is unbootable, and they're mightily pissed off with Apple for either not making it clearer (though as I say, it's possible they did and I've not seen) or simply not giving them bootable media in the first place. Given the cost of DVDs, I still don't quite see why Apple are so desperate to make this a download anyway.

Re:Pure BS and FUD (0)

Globe199 (442245) | more than 2 years ago | (#36687314)

Yeah, and they're mightily pissed? And then what are they going to do? They're going to go purchase a new Apple computer because the old one's broke. Which is exactly what Apple wants everyone to do -- purchase one of their toys every single year.

The reason they don't want it on DVD is because a physical medium is outside their control. /rant

Re:Pure BS and FUD (1)

cybrhippy (36730) | more than 2 years ago | (#36687512)

What difference does it make if they include physical media or not? Dell and other "PC" vendor's don't ship their systems w/ restore disk's anyways. Also, I am one of those guys ppl call or get referred too to fix home systems. 9 times out of 10 most ppl don't have/can't find the install media or they got the system from a surplus sale at their or family members work. The only way they are going to get an OS installed is if they find someone like me who works for cheap or free beer.

So far the only new thing I see is someone selling an OS upgrade for a reasonable price.

Re:Pure BS and FUD (1)

Culture20 (968837) | more than 2 years ago | (#36687796)

What difference does it make if they include physical media or not? Dell and other "PC" vendor's don't ship their systems w/ restore disk's anyways.

No, but HP at least plasters a huge dialog on first boot that asks you to insert a couple DVDs to create restore disks. Hopefully Apple does the same thing with these dmg files.

Re:Pure BS and FUD (1)

profplump (309017) | more than 2 years ago | (#36687974)

Is there some reason to believe that new machines will not ship with restore disks of some sort?

Existing machines already have a bootable OS -- you might have to install 10.6 before you re-upgrade to 10.7, but that's going to be true of any aftermarket upgrade on any platform.

So unless someone wants to link to a credible story that reads "Apple stops shipping bootable media with new computers" the only real the only problem here is people who want to create a 10.7 installer disk for existing machines. That is a legitimate concern in terms of doing re-installation directly and quickly, and it's certainly something I'd want, but it has nothing whatever to do with being able to get a dead machine to boot again, or with typical home user usage.

Re:Pure BS and FUD (1)

boristhespider (1678416) | more than 2 years ago | (#36687520)

Or, they're going to buy a much cheaper Dell machine and say "Fuck Apple". Which is a scenario Apple obviously think isn't going to happen - and hell, they're a big company with some good market research so it's entirely possible they're right and the bulk of their target demographic would just go out and buy another Macbook Pro - but which is a scenario I know would happen with a good few people like my dad who know enough about computers to be comfortable, but aren't nerdy enough to read the tech press or dig through a download to find a .dmg, or to think "I should burn that to a DVD in case my drive goes down".

I guess Apple don't really want that market, in which case all power to them, but they'll lose at least some custom that way.

Re:Pure BS and FUD (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36687894)

Proof read you shit, please. That first paragraph/run-on-sentence was painful as hell to read. There might be some good points in there or even the cure for cancer, but I couldn't be arsed to parse it.

Re:Pure BS and FUD (1)

dishpig (877882) | more than 2 years ago | (#36687638)

Oh bullshit. They'll take it to a repair shop, precisely because they don't know what they're doing. Get your head out of your ass.

Re:Pure BS and FUD (1)

Jezza (39441) | more than 2 years ago | (#36687742)

Yeah because every PC OEM includes reinstall media don't they? Oh, but they don't, they include a "reinstall partition" (which is no help if the drive is borked). I even saw a laptop (Acer I think) where you could only make one set of the reinstall media from the recovery partition! (Think about that for a while... yeah)

Apple are one of the few vendors who include a recovery DVD (currently), I think it highly likely they will continue to provide recovery media of some kind (I think it'll be a MacBook Air style USB thumb drive - no inside information here).

Re:Pure BS and FUD (1)

Jezza (39441) | more than 2 years ago | (#36687594)

Or they boot from their existing media and use their Apple ID to re-download it (yes a huge hassle... but doable). Or probably more likely they take it to an Apple Store where a "genius" fixes it, and as part of that process they reload the OS... Just saying.

Re:Pure BS and FUD (2)

boristhespider (1678416) | more than 2 years ago | (#36687734)

But a problem there is if there *are* no Apple stores nearby, and you're on capped broadband.

I just think Apple probably should offer Lion on DVDs, too. As it is, a lot of their customers aren't likely to have burned any recovery media and will have to go to an Apple store... and there might not even be any. (I live in Norway. We don't have any here. We've got quite a few resellers, but they're just resellers, and I've got absolutely no idea what they will or won't be able to do.)

Re:Pure BS and FUD (1)

Jezza (39441) | more than 2 years ago | (#36687802)

Connect it to the Internet and use your Apple ID to download a fresh copy (it really is that simple).

Yeah, Apple have removed the floppy disk again... we'll adapt.

Re:Pure BS and FUD (1)

uglyduckling (103926) | more than 2 years ago | (#36687750)

If someone can't manage the 3 seconds of Google searching to find out how to make a bootable CD image, then they really aren't going to be in a position to replace their faulty drive and reinstall the OS. They should be taking it to a geek friend or a computer store.

Re:Pure BS and FUD (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36688416)

Tech people are getting so knotted up about this. The OS is not even out yet, maybe information is forthcoming!

Re:Pure BS and FUD (0)

Darinbob (1142669) | more than 2 years ago | (#36687540)

I suspect that you use your old DVDs for Leopard or whatever you have. Brand new computers on the other hand will still probably come with an emergency repair DVD or such. I assume, I could be wrong. The cynical side of me says that a crashed HD means that you drive to an Apple store to have it fixed and thus be subjected to high pressure sales to replace your aging computer.

Remember people, this is an Apple product. These are fashion accessories and are not intended to be used for actual work.

Re:Pure BS and FUD (2)

FromageTheDog (775349) | more than 2 years ago | (#36687686)

Fashion accessory? I guess scientists and engineers are a mighty fashionable bunch, then. Most researchers I know (I'm in aerospace and split my time between NASA and Stanford) swear by Apple machines. UNIX underpinnings, It All Just Works, and the hardware is bulletproof. Best of all worlds.

Re:Pure BS and FUD (0)

Culture20 (968837) | more than 2 years ago | (#36688290)

UNIX underpinnings

The barest of UNIX underpinnings, and adoption of non-UNIXy elements.

It All Just Works

For special sets of "Just Works"

and the hardware is bulletproof.

Apple's hardware sucks terribly. They can't figure out cooling. Maybe you meant that literally. It would make for an interesting day at the firing range.

Re:Pure BS and FUD (0)

Darinbob (1142669) | more than 2 years ago | (#36688300)

I've found the hardware to be unreliable. Over time they have made it harder and harder to actually fix stuff on the laptops, batteries aren't even replaceable and I've seen those fail at a high rate. The only reason to make them not be replaceable is purely to make the product look better.

Re:Pure BS and FUD (1, Insightful)

Daniel Dvorkin (106857) | more than 2 years ago | (#36688474)

Everything you say is true, but it won't make any difference to GPP or others like him. The Apple-haters, like all fanatics, are uninterested in trivial things like data and logic.

Re:Pure BS and FUD (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36687990)

That's a lot of venom in that last statement. I use mine for work all the time; it works as well as any other laptop. Basically I like that there's no blinking orange or blue task bar buttons or an absurd amount of modal dialog boxes in OS X. It let's me get work done without whining for my attention all the time.

Summary got it wrong (0)

drkamil (1242294) | more than 2 years ago | (#36687406)

There WILL be physical discs available. Only SL users can upgrade by download.

Re:Summary got it wrong (1)

boristhespider (1678416) | more than 2 years ago | (#36687544)

I'm not arguing or trolling - do you have a source for that? The last I knew that was properly clear, it claimed that Lion would only be available as a download from the App Store. That came straight from Apple's comments at the WWDC.

Re:Summary got it wrong (1)

Jezza (39441) | more than 2 years ago | (#36687616)

I bet there will only USB thumb drive reinstall media - but personally I think that's better.

Re:Summary got it wrong (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36688006)

No, this is incorrect. There will be no physical discs. Any Intel Mac not currently running Snow Leopard would have to be upgraded to Snow Leopard (these discs WILL still be available) THEN download and upgrade to Lion.

If your HD is borked, you'd install Snow Leopard, THEN download and upgrade to Lion.

Or you could, as many have pointed out, burn the included "InstallESD.dmg" file to a DVD, thereby creating a bootable Lion installer that can be used on a bare drive.

What I don't understand is all this bitching and moaning about how average Mac users aren't going to like it. Like the basement-dwelling geeks on Slashdot have any fucking clue what the average computer user is or is not going to like.

I also don't understand why no one has brought up the MOST DISTURBING THING ABOUT LION. The recovery partition PHONES HOME TO APPLE WITH YOUR SERIAL NUMBER before restoring your OS. No internet connection? Sorry, you're not authorized to re-install Lion.

So much hatred for Apple in this thread (and I have some serious problems with the company as an entity, believe me) but that has nothing to do with the OS they produce. Mac OS X runs better than any other OS on the same hardware - and not just Macs. I've got Snow Leopard running on a Dell E510 with a 3GHz P4D and 1GB of RAM from 2005, and it is FAR faster and more stable than Win XP, Win 7, Ubuntu and lubuntu 10.10 and 11.04. In fact the only OS I've loaded on that thing that was faster than Snow Leopard was Joli OS (which I absolutely LOVE - it really made my sister-in-law's 11 year old Gateway sing!).

Bash Apple and Mac OS X all you like. The fact is it's the best engineered OS on the planet.

USB flash drives cost more than DVDs (4, Insightful)

jsepeta (412566) | more than 2 years ago | (#36687586)

Are Apple's profits too infinitesimal for them to take the staggering loss of pennies by making millions of DVDs that nobody uses after the first install? Or are they trying to help the environment by forcing all their technically-gifted customers to buy USB flash drives so that we can install a single download onto multiple computers?

I think this move is every bit as misguided as Apple's Final Cut Pro X (iMovie Pro) and only slapping 2GB RAM onto brand new MacBooks - or Jobs' decision to not include a disk drive on the NeXt Cube (a decade before writable CD's were widely available). Yes, I use Macs, but more and more begrudgingly because those rich BASTARDS are being CHEAPSKATES.

Re:USB flash drives cost more than DVDs (1)

Jezza (39441) | more than 2 years ago | (#36687670)

You can't copy a file across your network?! Seriously, think about it - you downloaded it, you're going to run it from the hard disk. Now how can you do that from another computer? Copy the file across the network perhaps?

Re:USB flash drives cost more than DVDs (1)

SpeZek (970136) | more than 2 years ago | (#36688134)

Dude, you're talking to someone who owns a Mac.

Re:USB flash drives cost more than DVDs (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36688548)

At least it's only a $30 upgrade, I'll download that 5 times, only costs my ISP pennies.

Re:USB flash drives cost more than DVDs (1)

sunfly (1248694) | more than 2 years ago | (#36688176)

Your assuming they keep the optical drive, and use decent thumb drives. Throw out the drive and include a thumb drive just big enough to hold the OS, and it might be cheaper.

jobs is louseing it time for him to go! (1)

Joe_Dragon (2206452) | more than 2 years ago | (#36688328)

jobs is louseing it time for him to go!

He will likely F* the next mini with a i3 cpu and on board intel video that is weaker then todays mini with on board nvidia video. and have like 1-2 TB ports on linked at x4 so that will be like 8-12 unused pci-e lanes that are a good fit for some kind better video chip.

Re:USB flash drives cost more than DVDs (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36688330)

The thing that pisses me off is the bandwidth - A linux distro might be 300MB on a CD based distro like Ubuntu or Mint, to two DVDs like for OpenSuSE, but in either case I could download these via a torrent, wich error checks as it goes, I have NEVER had a corrupted ISO torrent. Ever! But for large downloads from Apple? It took 3 tries to update my phone to iOS 4.0 at around 600MB a go. Full download everytime before it told me the image was corrupted. I've had one movie download then never play - Apple solution, download it again. 1.2GB! And they never offer checksums on their downloads of patches or update to make sure it came down right.
I would have been happy to get a tiny USB key like for the MB Air, if made in bulk, couldnt cost more than pressing and shipping a shiny silver platter!
Even if this was an extra itme charge.
Ih, and If I have two macs in the house? My kids dont have access to my iTuns account, I give them gift cards to keep their account in credit. So am I going to have to download twice?? 4GB each time?? I only have 20GB/Month!
Many unanswered questions.

Re:USB flash drives cost more than DVDs (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36688376)

Are Apple's profits too infinitesimal for them to take the staggering loss of pennies by making millions of DVDs that nobody uses after the first install? Or are they trying to help the environment by forcing all their technically-gifted customers to buy USB flash drives so that we can install a single download onto multiple computers?

I think this move is every bit as misguided as Apple's Final Cut Pro X (iMovie Pro) and only slapping 2GB RAM onto brand new MacBooks - or Jobs' decision to not include a disk drive on the NeXt Cube (a decade before writable CD's were widely available). Yes, I use Macs, but more and more begrudgingly because those rich BASTARDS are being CHEAPSKATES.

I wonder if the energy cost of DVD production is greater than the energy cost of someone with a 768kbps - 1.5mbps connection downloading this for hours. Its probably actually worse for the environment to do this. But easier on them.

What about ISP limits? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36688644)

Nobody seems concerned that this trend of download only titles in a direct collision course with ISP's limited "unlimited" data plans.
ATT is already capping home users and the prices will only go up while the allowable traffic goes down. Download your new OS and A few other titles and guess what, you just made ATTs day.

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