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ISP Refuses To Block the Pirate Bay

CmdrTaco posted more than 2 years ago | from the i-see-what-you-did-there dept.

Censorship 219

asto21 writes "Previously, representatives from the Finnish music industry filed a lawsuit against Elisa, one of the country's largest ISPs, demanding that it should block subscriber access to The Pirate Bay. In a reply filed at the district court, Elisa has refused to comply, describing the blocking demands as unreasonable."

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219 comments

reasonable (0, Troll)

perryizgr8 (1370173) | more than 2 years ago | (#36798762)

seems quite reasonable.

Re:reasonable (0, Troll)

mustPushCart (1871520) | more than 2 years ago | (#36798978)

Have to agree,
If it were a torrent website (just a repository of .torrent files) it would be unreasonable. But here you have a website which states its meant for piracy, really whats their defense?

Re:reasonable (2)

PhilHibbs (4537) | more than 2 years ago | (#36799064)

"Burger King, you must not serve those customers because they are villains. Macdonalds, you are free to continue taking their custom."

Re:reasonable (5, Insightful)

mmcuh (1088773) | more than 2 years ago | (#36799110)

"Burger King" are obviously royalists who aim to overthrow the US republic and replace it with a monarchy. You can clearly see it in their name. Really, what's their defence?

Re:reasonable (2, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36799310)

Well, our current system of government seems to have failed miserably. How bad could it be.
"Let them eat shakes."

Re:reasonable (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36799438)

While it's true that the plebes are generally not allowed to attain magnificent wealth the people of our nation has some of the best living conditions and greatest upward mobility of any time in history. We certainly aren't perfect, and there are many countries which may be better than us in one particular area or another but to write off our system of government as a failure is just silly. And yeah, I get that you were probably just making a joke.. I just get tired of people saying the US is a failure.

Re:reasonable (2)

Kjella (173770) | more than 2 years ago | (#36799402)

To use a real world analogy a pirate's bay like Tortuga doesn't mean everyone there is a pirate or that they engage only in piracy. It might be a very popular thing among the ships making it their port of call, but it's not really the harbor master's business. TPBs defense has been simple, all content is there at direction of users. You can call it a thin defense but it's been strong enough that it's still running...

Re:reasonable (1)

misexistentialist (1537887) | more than 2 years ago | (#36799696)

All torrent sites are targets anyway, so it's best to turn the bow into the storm. Unless TPB removes un-pirated content it, like every torrent site, isn't "meant" for anything.

Typhoon threatens Japan reactor (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36798764)

Workers in Japan scrambled Monday to build a protective covering over reactor no. 3 at the crippled Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant in anticipation of the approaching Typhoon Ma-on, the Tokyo Electric Power Company said.

Why hasn't it clicked yet? (5, Insightful)

Haedrian (1676506) | more than 2 years ago | (#36798792)

"The industry groups counter by saying they have been left with no other choices after the criminal conviction of the Pirate Bay admins following their November 2010 appeal failed to close down the site. Instead, the number of Finns using the site only increased."

You'd think they worked out that suing people hasn't worked by now.

When the industry starts giving people what they want - DRM-free stuff they can 'own' and use whichever way they like, at a reasonable price - then piracy will go down.

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet? (5, Insightful)

Lord Juan (1280214) | more than 2 years ago | (#36798888)

When the industry starts giving people what they want - DRM-free stuff they can 'own' and use whichever way they like, at a reasonable price - then piracy will go down.

Yes, but so will their profits, and remember, no freedom is worth a drop in their profits.

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36798904)

...but so will their *egos*...

there, fixed that for ya

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet? (1)

Lord Juan (1280214) | more than 2 years ago | (#36798976)

It is an attempt to replicate their flawed logic, of course both ideas (the drop in profits and the worthless freedoms) are ridiculous.

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet? (1)

Requiem18th (742389) | more than 2 years ago | (#36799644)

I think they believe in their freedoms. It's other people's freedoms that gets in their way.

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36799066)

no, i liked profits better... seemes more accurate.

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36799794)

No freedom leads to their profits dropping, though, isn't that ironic.

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet? (5, Insightful)

jimicus (737525) | more than 2 years ago | (#36799002)

You'd think they worked out that suing people hasn't worked by now.

When the industry starts giving people what they want - DRM-free stuff they can 'own' and use whichever way they like, at a reasonable price - then piracy will go down.

(Please note that I make no comment as to whether or not you're right, I'm simply commenting on why anyone might continue down this path long after it appears to everyone else that they're fantastically misguided).

It is hard to admit your own mistakes.

It is very hard to admit your own mistakes when you've been making them for so long that they've almost come to define you.

It is fantastically hard to admit to mistakes when you've got a socking great organisation set up to perpetuating them. At this stage, even if the man at the top knows that he's on the wrong course, a significant percentage of the people he's working with won't accept that.

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet? (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36799426)

sounds just like the war on drugs!

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet? (1)

Scarred Intellect (1648867) | more than 2 years ago | (#36799662)

Sounds just like our automotive manufacturers. It wasn't until Ford brought in a new CEO from outside the industry (from Boeing, actually) that it was realized how screwed up everything was. That's why Ford didn't need the bailout.

GM and Chrysler continued on as if the weren't doing anything wrong because they could see that they were doing something wrong. Bill Ford, Jr. said "We're an insular company in an insular industry in an insular town..." MPAA and RIAA are no different.

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet? (1)

ObsessiveMathsFreak (773371) | more than 2 years ago | (#36799976)

It is fantastically hard to admit to mistakes when you've got a socking great organisation set up to perpetuating them. At this stage, even if the man at the top knows that he's on the wrong course, a significant percentage of the people he's working with won't accept that.

The man on top is paid enormous sums of money to make difficult decisions. Or well, he used to be. These days he's paid enormous sums of money to not make any decisions at all it would seem.

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet? (5, Insightful)

perryizgr8 (1370173) | more than 2 years ago | (#36799048)

"The industry groups counter by saying they have been left with no other choices after the criminal conviction of the Pirate Bay admins following their November 2010 appeal failed to close down the site. Instead, the number of Finns using the site only increased."

You'd think they worked out that suing people hasn't worked by now.

When the industry starts giving people what they want - DRM-free stuff they can 'own' and use whichever way they like, at a reasonable price - then piracy will go down.

you CAN get drm free mp3s from itunes now. has that actually decreased any piracy? nope.

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet? (4, Insightful)

bemymonkey (1244086) | more than 2 years ago | (#36799172)

The real question is whether or not it's increased sales... I know it has on my part.

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet? (0)

Clairvoyant (137586) | more than 2 years ago | (#36799230)

mp3 == music?

Or is it a crippled down version of it? I buy FLACs (preferably ones better than 16bit/44kHz (we don't live in the 70s anymore, guys)) on the Internet. I don't mind paying for them if the music is good. I'm not paying for mp3. It's like paying for mcdonalds. oh, hold on....
Not buying any CDs because the industry itself is retarded. "Let's see who rusts first!"

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36799318)

I buy FLACs (preferably ones better than 16bit/44kHz (we don't live in the 70s anymore, guys))

Wrong decade. You should have said "we don't live in the 80s anymore." Recordings sold in the 70s were analog.

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet? (2)

perryizgr8 (1370173) | more than 2 years ago | (#36799324)

maybe guys like you have extra-sensitive ears but most people cannot hear a difference between flac at 48bit/196kHz (numbers made up) and aac/mp3 at 320kbps.
i too haven't bough any cd or music over the net for about a decade now. i once bought an album on bandcamp, but it was $0.5 so that hardly counts as buying. lots of free downloads from bandcamp too. also, any song that is very good, i get from my friends. i dunno if that counts as piracy or not.

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet? (1)

AJH16 (940784) | more than 2 years ago | (#36799672)

"any song that is very good, i get from my friends. i dunno if that counts as piracy or not." - Yes it does.

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet? (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36800076)

"any song that is very good, i get from my friends. i dunno if that counts as piracy or not." - Yes it does.

Actually, if the GP is in Canada, it is not illegal to copy _yourself_ a friend's legally purchased CD or tape. You cannot instruct your friend to copy it for you (legally), but you can copy it yourself.

This is one of the rights we have paid for with the years and years of blank media tariffs (tapes and CDRs). Of course, this is also a right the record industry (after profiting for years from the tariffs) want to get rid of now that they see it as a threat.

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36800282)

"any song that is very good, i get from my friends. i dunno if that counts as piracy or not." - Yes it does.

No it does not

There is no evidence that the music obtained from these 'friends' was not legal.

Even if it was illegal its copyright infringement and not piracy.

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet? (1)

razvan784 (1389375) | more than 2 years ago | (#36799580)

I'm genuinely wondering if there is anything better than lossless coding at 16 bits per sample, 44kHz. Can you honestly hear the difference between this and any high sample rate / bit count? Is it a real improvement? If yes, is it due to poor encoding or poor sample rate conversion in software / hardware? Theoretically you shouldn't need more than 44k samples/s for encoding audio, and to hear the quantization noise of 16 bits you'd have to be in a really really quiet room, or wear some damn good headphones, and have very fine ears.

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet? (1)

kevinmenzel (1403457) | more than 2 years ago | (#36799776)

Well, I have a home studio, and a signal chain that can easily outpace the dynamic range of 16-bit audio, so yeah, I can theoretically hear the difference between 16-bit and higher - but realistically have very few audio sources outside of Blu-Ray discs that even approach trying to use that dynamic range. As for higher sample rates... over time, less and less can I hear the difference, but particularly for really simple recordings (a single acoustic guitar or a solo piano), I prefer something higher than 48KHz though probably less than 88.2KHz frankly if such a sample rate were anywhere near standard because they tend to better represent the relation between overtones better. Only because generally speaking, the random low pass filter at the top end of even 48KHz typically has effects at slightly lower than the maximum audio frequencies. With 88.2 - there's not even close to a problem. However, as soon as I turn a computer on in that room or something... well, not worth it anymore. Because you're right, ideal conditions are pretty damned necessary - and you'd even need a quiet environment if you were listening on high-end headphones, because they're pretty much all going to be open headphones, not closed - and thus you aren't going to be getting much in the way of any reduction of room noise when listening. And if I were mastering audio, though I prefer 88.2KHz because frankly it's just the lowest well better than necessary standard sample rate, 96KHz is usually better for distribution because so many DACs don't do 88.2KHz, which means you rely on generally pretty awful re-sampling at the consumer end. That's even a problem on one of my computers. But that motherboard got relegated to my storage server long ago for many reasons, so it doesn't really come up.

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36799990)

The GP misspoke; they're not MP3s. Music purchased from the iTunes Store is 256kbps AAC (higher quality than 256kbps MP3), which is often produced from better-than-CD-quality original sources (according to Apple). The files are not encrypted, and should be playable with any software or device that supports AAC, which is most things that support MP3. Your AppleID (email address, usually) is stored in the ID3 tags, and iTunes provides no mechanism for removing this information, although it's easy to do with third-party utilities.

None of this applies to videos, which are still DRM-encumbered. I believe the free music downloads they offer are also encrypted, although I'm not sure.

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet? (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36799448)

Two things: firstly, you neglect to provide any source or figures for your claim that it's not reduced piracy. I can understand why you wouldn't provide figures - they're difficult to come by and when you do find them the source is usually biased, but simply omitting them and stating your opinion as fact doesn't make it so. There are plenty of respected sources [xkcd.com] arguing that DRM actually drives people to piracy [bit-tech.net].

Secondly, you completely ignored the "at a reasonable price" part of the sentence you highlighted. The fact is, in almost all cases it's as cheap if not cheaper for me to buy a physical CD/DVD/ebook/game burned to a disk or printed on paper from a bricks and mortar store (where its occupying valuable floorspace and requires dedicated retail staff, not to mention the logistics of delivery and the wholesale supply chain all contributing to the cost) than it is to buy a collection of bits over the internet. That doesn't represent good value, not even close. The fact that people are still buying so much music online, even when it represents a poor choice compared to the alternative, shows that people want to spend money, and there are plenty of again respected sources arguing that a drop in digital prices [arstechnica.com] would do more to combat piracy than DRM and ridiculous restrictions on freedom and the internet and bought and paid for laws.

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet? (5, Informative)

Quince alPillan (677281) | more than 2 years ago | (#36799538)

No, but Netflix and Pandora killed any video and music pirating I might have been doing. I'd much rather pay Netflix every month, and Pandora once a year, than having to deal with viruses, codec issues, and rampant quality issues.

The fact that I can have both services on my devices (Pandora works on my PS3) means that I don't have to format shift any more, either.

I still refuse to pay iTunes prices for music or videos, but Pandora is good enough that I don't need to download music any more. Netflix is far easier than pirating videos and has far more content than any one website, which means I don't have to search for something I might like.

While my evidence is merely anecdotal, I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of other people didn't feel the same way.

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36799602)

You conveniently ommitted the "reasonable price" bit. Spending on a stream of bits the same amount which is asked for to purchase a physical, tangible good is not reasonable in any way.

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36799622)

Yes, you can get them if you pay a premium over an already ridiculously high price per song. Prices need to go down aswell, not just making things DRM-free.

Though it wouldn't surprise me if the industry turns around and makes everything DRM-free, but they raise the price per song to $20 - And then still blame piracy for things not selling.

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36799872)

you missed the whole at a reasonable price thing....

Mp3s are .99-1.29 a track last i checked (I use radio and pandora mostly) and you aren't getting physical media.

Personally I don't think that this is reasonable given the lack of manufacturing and shipping overhead

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet? (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36799928)

you CAN get drm free mp3s from itunes now. has that actually decreased any piracy? nope.

Seriously: this is totally news to me. I heard a few years ago that iTunes had dropped DRM but I didn't know they do mp3 now. Amazing: something Apple did, went relatively unpublicized! ;-)

There are a lot of complicating factors here...

  1. iTunes store doesn't really count. As far as I know they don't have web sales like Amazon does. In order to buy music through iTunes, you need a proprietary client that has been ported to hardly any platforms (and on top of that, it happens to be astounding bad; iTunes it possibly very worst product that Apple has ever created, rivaling even the mid-1990s "road Apple" Performas). I would not be able to buy through iTunes even if I wanted to; I simply have no way. In some ways, this is much like DRM (i.e. Apple is still telling me they don't want my money), though there are some huge differences too (once you manage to get the file, unlike a DRM file, it should actually work.)
  2. Music piracy never made sense. (And personally, I buy CDs, not mp3s. Even if Apple changed their mind and decided they were willing to do business with me, I wouldn't go for it.) Why does music piracy make no sense? Unlike video, DRM was never a major factor in preventing music sales. CDs are still available and they work flawlessly. It has always been trivially easy for anyone to buy unDRMed music. Unlike video pirates, music pirates have no one to blame but themselves.
  3. Piracy is irrelevant. Sales are what matters. Asking whether piracy has changed with iTunes going MP3, misses the point. People should be asking whether or not sales have increased since then. If people are pirating and buying too as a result of try-before-you-buy, that is good news for music copyright holders.
  4. And finally, seriously: that Apple sells MP3 now is not widespread knowledge. I am not kidding. I'm of half a mind to say that you might even be wrong but I don't know enough for sure to really be able to say that.

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet? (1)

GNious (953874) | more than 2 years ago | (#36800142)

When the industry starts giving people what they want - DRM-free stuff they can 'own' and use whichever way they like, at a reasonable price - then piracy will go down.

you CAN get drm free mp3s from itunes now. has that actually decreased any piracy? nope.

Link to study, please

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36800354)

The problem lies in the quality of those mp3s, as well as the price. Personally I wouldn't buy music unless I knew the artist was getting their far share. For example, I always donate to the humble bundle packs when they come out (games), because I know it' not $70 in licensing fees. This can be seen heavily in our music industry today. Record labels are cheap and greedy, and don't deserve the wages they get.

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet? (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36799084)

No price beats free. With all of the brain trusts around here who think that if a song costs more than a nickle above what they feel's right is justification for theft it will be hard to come to terms that everyone is happy with. This isn't even to mention those who will bellyache about compression and format.
 
The fact of the matter is that there are entire catalogs of artists that have tons of seeders on Pirate's Bay where all the music is on iTunes or eMusic or Amazon for a buck a track or less. Each of these services either allow MP3s to be made from their downloads or download as MP3 with no real restictions. They offered a legal and reasonable channel and still we have piracy.
 
Again, no price beats free.

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet? (5, Insightful)

mooglez (795643) | more than 2 years ago | (#36799134)

We are sorry...

        * We could not process your order. The sale of MP3 Downloads is currently available only to US customers located in the United States.

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36799398)

You don't think that piracy is just a non-US problem, do you really? If you do you're a fool and if you don't you've gone out of your way to miss the point which makes you a troll.

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet? (3, Insightful)

mooglez (795643) | more than 2 years ago | (#36799548)

You don't think that piracy is just a non-US problem, do you really? If you do you're a fool and if you don't you've gone out of your way to miss the point which makes you a troll.

piracy is a worldwide problem, hence you cannot use examples or webstores that are only available in the united states to draw conclusions like the op did.
ie. that there already are viable alternatives to piracy => if piracy did not go down => it is the people and not the content managers who are at fault.

especially when this whole news article is about an EUROPEAN isp. hence the discussion would by logic be eurocentric, not us centric.

my post was to show that there is still a lot of work to do on the content managers side to bring out a product that can compete with a pirated product, around the world, and not just in some specific part of the world.

No, You missed the point. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36800084)

Not everyone lives in the US! listing a service only available to people within the US is a good example of how the industry is not being reasonable

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet? (1)

delinear (991444) | more than 2 years ago | (#36799482)

Except it's not theft, since there is no intention to permanently deny another ownership of his property - calling it theft is as ridiculous as calling it murder. It's nothing more than a calculated use of chilling terminology to demonise something. If IP infringement is as bad as the labels claim, why are they scared to call it what it is? Could it be that most people see IP infringement as acceptable? In any event there is no permanent denial of ownership - the original owner still has his copy of the music. The moral is, when data is so easily duplicated that people have been able to trivially get it for free for well over a decade, the fact that there are still plenty of people willing to pay for it at all should be seen as a godsend - what the labels should be doing is playing with the price point to find the sweet spot instead of trying to impose artificial restrictions which are just a waste of everyone's time and money.

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet? (2)

elashish14 (1302231) | more than 2 years ago | (#36799090)

I don't know what you refer to by 'industry' but the RIAA and MPAA gone way past the limit for me. Even if I could pay for it, I will on principle make sure not to give my money to them because I know that they're just going to use it to stifle our freedoms, using our money for their dirty schemes - hiring lawyers for extortion, bribing politicians for anti-freedom legislation, and so on.

I'm even reluctant to use Pandora because I know that they have to bend over for the RIAA, and that they must be making some cash on the side from it. I wish there were a non-RIAA alternative so I could find and listen to good music without supporting them. Maybe it's time to check out the Jamendo store or something else of the like. Another example: when friends give me itunes gift cards, I make sure to purchase from artists that have never had anything to do with the RIAA. I hope that's good enough and they don't have some deal on the side that still gets them a profit from non-label sales....

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet? (1)

91degrees (207121) | more than 2 years ago | (#36799124)

I'm not sure whether the ownership model makes sense when there's absolutley no tangible product involved at all. The licensing model is one I have particular distaste for, and I dare say I'm not alone in that respect. I like to have control of my own media rather than rely on someone else who may cease to exist.

some will point to IP at this point... (2)

justforgetme (1814588) | more than 2 years ago | (#36799586)

But I'm not one of those.

To be honest I really never understood how it has become to be the accepted way, to pay people for their past services. So you want to be an ubercool gazillionaire? very well provide a constant high value service to people and get paid high amounts for it but don't go asking everyone for money because you first of all men thought of how to wipe your a** after defecating.

Concerning ownership of digital items (data, to the intelligent people): how could anybody put a price tag on a copy of something that can be copied without any costs keeping in mind that the electricity needed for a file transfer of a .mp3 file could easily be generated with rubber and some wool.

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet? (1)

AJH16 (940784) | more than 2 years ago | (#36799744)

I don't mind licensing as long as it is either a) guaranteed to be available indefinitely (as in will have restrictions removed if the provider goes under) or b) is a significantly lowered rate to provide non-permanent access to a wide variety (ala Netflix/Rhapsody/Napster/etc). The two things I care about as a consumer are perpetual access to content that I wish to support specifically and directly due to its high quality and temporary cheap access to content which offers simple entertainment but is not of a quality that merits purchasing permanently.

I would even go so far as to say I have no issue with DRM provided that a) it is guaranteed to always work (restrictions removed at end of support) and b) does not have a negative impact on the legitimate use of the product beyond what would be possible with a pirated version. This means internet connections should not be required, device allocations should be revocable (I should be able to move it from one device to another as much as I want), device allocations should be reasonable (I figure 5 to 10 is a reasonable number that avoids large scale piracy while fitting the majority of fair use rights), ideally, in the case of music it should be CD burnable and in the case of HD video it should be Bluray burnable. I think all of these objectives are technically achievable and honestly have no issue with DRM if the system meets them. I understand the desire to protect profits, but it can not come at the expense of the rights or convenience of legitimate customers. The music industry as a whole also needs to be radically restructured so that artists are better compensated, but that is a different discussion for a different time and is still not a valid reason to pirate, it is simply a valid reason to choose to not listen to that music or to only go to concerts of those bands.

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet? (2)

franciscohs (1003004) | more than 2 years ago | (#36799130)

And they should keep in mind, some piracy will ALWAYS remain, those are the people that wouldn't have bought the crap they pirated no matter the price.

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet? (3, Insightful)

toxickitty (1758282) | more than 2 years ago | (#36799216)

When the industry starts giving people what they want - DRM-free stuff they can 'own' and use whichever way they like, at a reasonable price - then piracy will go down.

They don't want that though, the minute you have a prefect digital copy you don't have to keep buying the same shit everytime we get a new technology to play it, and they certainly don't want that at all ^^

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet? (5, Insightful)

plover (150551) | more than 2 years ago | (#36799708)

They don't want that though, the minute you have a prefect digital copy you don't have to keep buying the same shit everytime we get a new technology to play it, and they certainly don't want that at all ^^

This.

If buying CDs was "only buying the rights to listen to the music", our license would extend to whatever form of media it were on. The "rights" I bought to listen to Stairway to Heaven in the 1970s were never advertised as expiring, nothing in the album packaging or liner notes indicated that these rights would expire, therefore they should have extended beyond the vinyl to the CDs I acquired in the 1980s, or the MP3 I download from iTunes today.

They have proven this is not the case, because they charged me full price for the CD even though I owned the vinyl. If I truly owned the rights to listen to the music, I should have only had to pay a few dollars for the conversion to digital and the different media. But no, I paid exactly the same price as someone who didn't previously own the music on vinyl.

Either we're licensing the rights to listen, which should extend across media, or we're buying the bits and own them. They shouldn't get it both ways.

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet? (1, Insightful)

FlyingGuy (989135) | more than 2 years ago | (#36799260)

When the industry starts giving people what they want - DRM-free stuff they can 'own' and use whichever way they like, at a reasonable price - then piracy will go down.

Once again you and people like you are utterly clueless. You can go and buy DVD's, CD's and whatnot today AND you can use them for your own personal and private use pretty much any way you would like.

What you cannot do is decide to share them with the world by putting them on the net for anyone to download for free and that is what they have their panties in a bunch about.

My wife just loves John Mayer's music. We but it, she puts a copy on her iPod ( which she uses while bike riding and at the gym) through iTunes, we burn a copy of the CD and put on in the CD changer in the car and the original gets put into the CD collection. Guess what, the EVIL record companies don;t give a shit about that.

The EVIL record companies would take us to court if I set up a server, burned everything to MP3 and then connected it to the net, then advertised it on TPB!

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36799472)

The thing is that average Joe is lazy as hell. I can't be bothered to go to the store to buy a CD.
What he wants is the opportunity to buy the same music online, in the same quality, at more or less the same price minus the distribution and printing costs.
Sadly the record companies are oblivious to this model.

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet? (3, Insightful)

ibwolf (126465) | more than 2 years ago | (#36799838)

My wife just loves John Mayer's music. We but it, she puts a copy on her iPod ( which she uses while bike riding and at the gym) through iTunes, we burn a copy of the CD and put on in the CD changer in the car and the original gets put into the CD collection. Guess what, the EVIL record companies don;t give a shit about that.

Of course the give a 'shit' about that, it is just unfortunate (from their perspective) that the CD specification was finalized long before DRM became an issue. They would love nothing more than to be able to sell you a separate copy for your iPod, car and home stereo. Indeed, Sonly tried very hard to 'fix' CDs so that you couldn't rip them!

Meanwhile video content is still DRM infested and digital books seem headed in that direction as well.

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet? (0)

FlyingGuy (989135) | more than 2 years ago | (#36800230)

No, they really don't, why because it really has no practical net effect on their bottom line.

What does have a net effect on their bottom line are people who firmly that if they go and buy one copy of a CD that they can then rip it to MP3 and then post it for everyone to download for free.

With a music title you are talking perhaps 50 to 100 thousand invested by the record companies to produce the final product. With movies you are talking 50 to 100 MILLION invested by studios to produce the final product.

Both of these are a serious gamble because they both rely on the very fickle listening and viewing tastes of audiences. If you think record companies and movie studios make bank on everything they do you are seriously deluded as more often then not they lose money and no not fancy Hollywood accounting losses, I mean real losses or little or no profit for the money invested.

They also really don't care if you load it up and invite a bunch of friends over because chances are your taste in movies and music are much like that of your friends so chances are that your friends will go out and purchase a copy of something they liked because they would like to listen and or watch that same thing again. But if you as the person who invited all those friends over decides to have already burned 14 copies to hand out to your friends as they leave have just taken 14 potential sales away from the company that footed the bill to get the title made. If you put it on a server and then put a l;ink on TPB you have just taken away perhaps millions of potential sales.

When you go out and buy a copy for yourself and keep it for yourself that is good, they make money you get a movie or set of music you like and everyone wins. When you put it on a torrent for everyone I guess you get to think your cool, the other people who download it get it for free but the loser is the one carrying the load of the investment of making all that stuff you like. If that happens to much more often they don;t invest anymore and everyone else eventually loses.

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet? (1)

RobertLTux (260313) | more than 2 years ago | (#36800322)

and Philips took them to court over the trademark violation

want to know how to tell that a audio disc is in fact a "real" cd?? look for the Compact Disc Digital Audio logo (may not be present on some real cds but will be absent from any "fake" cds)

Would like to think my ISP would have those guts (3, Insightful)

elrous0 (869638) | more than 2 years ago | (#36798962)

I really would like to believe that American ISP's would have those guts when the (inevitable) day comes. But I'm pretty sure that they'll be falling all over themselves to comply (especially since most of them are owned by big media companies like Time Warner and Comcast).

Re:Would like to think my ISP would have those gut (2)

alex67500 (1609333) | more than 2 years ago | (#36799274)

I honestly believe that the only result of blocking this address would result in more and more users of Tor (or the like).

Time Warner doesn't own TWC anymore (1)

tepples (727027) | more than 2 years ago | (#36799594)

especially since most of them are owned by big media companies like Time Warner and Comcast

Comcast I'll grant you; it owns half of NBCUniversal Media. But Time Warner spun out TWC over two years ago.

Only practical solution? (2)

DickBreath (207180) | more than 2 years ago | (#36799000)

> claims that blocking The Pirate Bay is the only practical solution to slow down piracy,

That supposes that there is a solution period which can slow down piracy.

Maybe they ought to try competing. Give people what they want: digital content, at a reasonable price, that they can own (like an 8-track, vinyl or wax cylinder) and listen to whenever they want on any of their devices (gramaphone, victrolla, car 8-track, etc).

Re:Only practical solution? (3, Funny)

PhilHibbs (4537) | more than 2 years ago | (#36799162)

Give people what they want: digital content, at a reasonable price, that they can own (like an 8-track, vinyl or wax cylinder) and listen to whenever they want on any of their devices (gramaphone, victrolla, car 8-track, etc).

That's some crazy advanced technology, that allows you to own a copy and not just pay for a licence! Are you sure any of it is possible?

Such a slippery slope. (5, Insightful)

commo1 (709770) | more than 2 years ago | (#36799036)

The ISPs rightly refuse... if this is what they're blocking this week, what will it be next and where will they be taking orders from?

One (or more) of the 'agencies' of the U.S.A.? Interpol? Local law enforcement? The PTA?

Re:Such a slippery slope. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36799452)

The PTA?

PETA?

I thought... (1)

justforgetme (1814588) | more than 2 years ago | (#36799632)

I always thought that it was a prerequisite of the businessman profession to have your balls cut of...
How come the guy who runs Elisa still has them?

Can't give in to blackmail. (5, Insightful)

Aceticon (140883) | more than 2 years ago | (#36799044)

Blocking access to a specific site on demand from a specific interest group just opens up a huge can of worms. You do it for one interest group and next you know, everybody and their cat is demanding you do the same for them.

After all, if one group can demand it in order to defend their business model, then certainly other owners of IP can too. For example if somebody reposts a post of mine (of which I automatically own the copyright) in part or in whole, they're breaking my copyright - I think I need to request that access is blocked to every proxy in the planet from Finand.

Then there's the whole "morality" groups - how about, say, muslim groups demanding that access to sites of newspapers critical of Islam is blocked, pro-democracy groups demanding blocking of critical sites, anti-democracy groups demanding blocking of pro-democracy sites, misguided animal-rights groups demanding blocking of access to bonsai-cats and more.
After all, as the argument would go, those sites facilitate the spread of defamatory posts and even posts that incite hatred on religious or political grounds (yes, there are places were this is against the law and said law is vaguelly enough written that pretty much everything fits until it comes in front of a court and is proven).

Re:Can't give in to blackmail. (5, Informative)

Barbara, not Barbie (721478) | more than 2 years ago | (#36799394)

For example if somebody reposts a post of mine (of which I automatically own the copyright) in part or in whole, they're breaking my copyright.

Just want to point out that you are perpetuating a common misconception - two, actually.

1. Not everything you post is automatically copyrightable.

For example, if you posted "1+1=2", that is not subject to copyright. It is neither original nor creative, as well as being a non-copyrightable fact.

Also, things that are trivial are not copyrightable. Look at the whole linux header files debate.

Then there's this HUGE hole - people think that they can protect an idea by copyright, when copyright doesn't allow it [cornell.edu]:

(b) In no case does copyright protection for an original work of authorship extend to any idea, procedure, process, system, method of operation, concept, principle, or discovery, regardless of the form in which it is described, explained, illustrated, or embodied in such work.

This is why you can't copyright the rules of a game - just the artwork, etc.

2. People can repost your post without your permission under certain circumstances without breaking your copyright.

Fair use [cornell.edu] is just one example. Libraries and archives are another [cornell.edu]. In Canada, news media can repost it under section 29.2 of the Canadian Copyright Act [justice.gc.ca] without compensation as long as they provide attribution.

Even Tetris? (1)

tepples (727027) | more than 2 years ago | (#36799636)

This is why you can't copyright the rules of a game - just the artwork, etc.

So what's the most cost-effective way to defend oneself when sued by a company that claims copyright in the rules of a game?

Re:Even Tetris? (2)

Barbara, not Barbie (721478) | more than 2 years ago | (#36799748)

Yes, even the rules to Tetris are not copyrighted.

The government says as much: http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl108.html [copyright.gov]

Copyright does not protect the idea for a game, its name or title, or the method or methods for playing it. Nor does copyright protect any idea, system, method, device, or trademark material involved in developing, merchandising, or playing a game. Once a game has been made public, nothing in the copyright law prevents others from developing another game based on similar principles. Copyright protects only the particular manner of an author's expression in literary, artistic, or musical form.

Material prepared in connection with a game may be subject to copyright if it contains a sufficient amount of literary or pictorial expression. For example, the text matter describing the rules of the game or the pictorial matter appearing on the gameboard or container may be registrable.

If your game includes any written element, such as instructions or directions, the Copyright Office recommends that you apply to register it as a literary work. Doing so will allow you to register all copyrightable parts of the game, including any pictorial elements. When the copyrightable elements of the game consist predominantly of pictorial matter, you should apply to register it as a work of the visual arts.

The deposit requirements will vary, depending on whether the work has been published at the time of registration. If the game is published, the proper deposit is one complete copy of the work. If, however, the game is published in a box larger than 12" x 24" x 6" (or a total of 1,728 cubic inches) then identifying material must be submitted in lieu of the entire game. (See âoeidentifying materialâ below.) If the game is published and contains fewer than three threedimensional elements, then identifying material for those parts must be submitted in lieu of those parts. If the game is unpublished, either one copy of the game or identifying material should be deposited.

Identifying material deposited to represent the game or its three-dimensional parts usually consists of photographs, photostats, slides, drawings, or other two-dimensional representations of the work. The identifying material should include as many pieces as necessary to show the entire copyrightable content of the work, including the copyright notice if it appears on the work. All pieces of identifying material other than transparencies must be no less than 3" x 3" in size, and not more than 9" x 12", but preferably 8" x 10". At least one piece of identifying material must, on its front, back, or mount, indicate the title of the work and an exact measurement of one or more dimensions of the work.

FL-108, Reviewed November 2010

U.S. Copyright Office
101 Independence Ave. S.E.
Washington, D.C. 20559-6000
(202) 707-3000

Revised: 22-Dec-2010

Most people don't know the law, so they fold when they get the C&D.

So you're free to make your own version of Risk or Tetris - but when you write up the rules, you have to use your own words to describe them - you can't just cut-n-pasta the original rules. The rules aren't protected - only their physical expression is (font, layout, artwork).

People are surprised that there's no copyright to a game name or movie title - but that's why you can see 3-4 movies with the same name and different decades at IMDB, and there's no copyright infringement.

Re:Even Tetris? (1)

tepples (727027) | more than 2 years ago | (#36800120)

Most people don't know the law, so they fold when they get the C&D.

That and the fact that The Tetris Company has occasionally been seen to escalate the issue to a lawsuit in federal court.

Re:Even Tetris? (1)

Barbara, not Barbie (721478) | more than 2 years ago | (#36800234)

1. Send copy of the law to the company, along with a demand for the particulars of the legal theory of how, in light of the law, you are infringing;
2. Let them sue;
3. Find others they've threatened
3. Since they knew the lawsuit was invalid, go for special damages in a class action.

Justice is expensive (1)

tepples (727027) | more than 2 years ago | (#36800330)

The first two steps you listed require money to hire competent legal counsel, which a lot of individual software developers don't have.

Re:Can't give in to blackmail. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36799964)

Just want to point out that you are perpetuating a common misconception - two, actually.

Just wanted to let you know that you are missing the actual point of his post, which is discussing the flaws inherent in bowing to the interests of private parties, not the off-topic subtleties of copyright law.

Re:Can't give in to blackmail. (1)

Syberz (1170343) | more than 2 years ago | (#36799936)

Blocking access to a specific site on demand from a specific interest group just opens up a huge can of worms. You do it for one interest group and next you know, everybody and their cat is demanding you do the same for them.

After all, if one group can demand it in order to defend their business model, then certainly other owners of IP can too. For example if somebody reposts a post of mine (of which I automatically own the copyright) in part or in whole, they're breaking my copyright - I think I need to request that access is blocked to every proxy in the planet from Finand.

Then there's the whole "morality" groups - how about, say, muslim groups demanding that access to sites of newspapers critical of Islam is blocked, pro-democracy groups demanding blocking of critical sites, anti-democracy groups demanding blocking of pro-democracy sites, misguided animal-rights groups demanding blocking of access to bonsai-cats and more. After all, as the argument would go, those sites facilitate the spread of defamatory posts and even posts that incite hatred on religious or political grounds (yes, there are places were this is against the law and said law is vaguelly enough written that pretty much everything fits until it comes in front of a court and is proven).

Come at me bro!

Re:Can't give in to blackmail. (2)

PPH (736903) | more than 2 years ago | (#36800108)

ISPs (and other private individuals or organizations) aren't cops. Its not their job to police the Internet, patrol their neighborhood, or apprehend criminals.

Granted, TPB probably doesn't present much of a risk of retaliation. Or perhaps it does. Just look at Wikileaks/Anonymous. If someone wants to play good citizen, fine. But there shouldn't be an obligation placed upon individuals to perform policing functions (This isn't Soviet Russia, Slashdot memes aside), particularly when doing so might place a person or business at financial or physical risk.

All Elisa has to do is to cite the possibility of retaliatory DDoS attacks and that should get them off the hook.

Exactly the same thing happened in Holland (4, Interesting)

dingen (958134) | more than 2 years ago | (#36799118)

Dutch music & movie trade association BREIN won a lawsuit against The Piratebay in 2009 (it was covered onSlashdot [slashdot.org]). When it became clear The Piratebay wouldn't actively block Dutch users, BREIN started to sue Dutch ISP's, but none of them caved. Now, two years later, The Piratebay is still available through all Dutch ISP's, despite all of the lawsuits.

Shut them down (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36799150)

This ISP should be shut down for supporting piracy and showing no respect for copyright.

Torrents are never and have never been used for anything but piracy. There is no defensible case for permitting people access to them.

Re:Shut them down (1)

realityimpaired (1668397) | more than 2 years ago | (#36799506)

Did you hear that whooshing sound? He was being facetious, knowing his audience already knows of many legitimate uses for torrenting that have nothing to do with piracy, and was just waiting for some pedant to point one of them out. :) (and hey, it was either somebody talking about a Linux distro, or some WoW player pointing out that they get their updates through torrents)

To play devil's advocate though, most of the legitimate torrent users run their own tracker, rather than using a centralized tracker like TPB, specifically because of the not-so-legitimate uses that allegedly happen there.... :)

Re:Shut them down (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36799630)

Those aren't *real* torrents. Linux is for fagets.

Go suck on a penguin. Faget.

Don't understand how TPB domain survives... (1)

patniemeyer (444913) | more than 2 years ago | (#36799166)

With years of fighting around the ISPs, hosting, and blocking of TPB can someone tell me how it is that the domain name has not just been seized? Haven't other names been grabbed / taken down for more specious reasons?

I understand that taking the domain name would not stop any of this, I am just amazed that they haven't tried...

Re:Don't understand how TPB domain survives... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36799300)

Good thing the guys at TBP didn't register thepiratebay.com

Re:Don't understand how TPB domain survives... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36799686)

What they are doing is legal.

Although it pisses off lawmakers who try and try to figure out a way to make it illegal, they can't actually stop them.

Linking != hosting.

Agreed... (1)

Flipstylee (1932884) | more than 2 years ago | (#36799186)

With all the above comments, red flag me as a terrorist or whatever,
but this country has been on the long road downhill for awhile. (US)

Should the protect-ip act get pushed through, we will start seeing all sorts of funky shit happen,
true in the fact that it will be what we've already seen, build a better lock, create better lockpicks but,
in this cycle every iteration gets nastier....
When you've got money to buy judges to protect you're "potential" profits.

Just ranting here, i'm only one person and have little say, i just like to see other countries stand in the interest of their people is all.

Re:Agreed... (1)

Sinthet (2081954) | more than 2 years ago | (#36799570)

I agree with what you say, but the Protect IP act is especially stupid, because it doesn't even build a marginally better lock. Once people heard "free apps", everyone I know was jailbreaking their iPhone, a process most people would describe as at least somewhat technically inclined (This was back before the "Click to Jailbreak" GUI releases).

Anyway, Tor defeats any protection PROTECT IP could give. This act is like leaving a broken lock on a door, and then posting a sticky note on top of it telling people not to pick it.

I too, however, am very happy that this Finnish company is standing up for freedom. Once you start filtering, you open a huge can of liability worms. Not to mention, I guarentee someone would register thepiratebay.fi (or whatever Finland's domain is), which downloaded .torrent files from TPB and indexed them for Finnish users.

more fear, less communicaton, life0cide continues (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36799190)

how are the unmentionable weapons peddlers surviving in these times of worldwide sufferage? the royals? our self appointed murderous neogod rulers? all better than ok, thank..... us. their stipends/egos/disguises are secure, so we'll all be ok/not killed by mistaken changes in the weather, being one of the unchosen 'too many' of us, etc...?

truth telling & disarming are the only mathematically & spiritually correct options. read the teepeeleaks etchings. see you there?

I notice the censorship tag, but.... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36799410)

... can anyone point to enough non-contrived examples of pirate bay being used to distribute anything entirely legitimately that it can be confidently stated that there actually was ever any substantial non-infringing use?

The actual problem with the strategy of blocking such websites, of course... is that for every one that they block, at least 3 more will pop up to replace it.

Other Finnish ISP's not blocking either (2)

cbope (130292) | more than 2 years ago | (#36800232)

I'm on another equally large Finnish ISP (Sonera), and there is no blockage of TPB. I've not heard of any ISP's here blocking content, other than the failed attempt at a black list for child porn sites a few years ago.

Wow, Elisa? Really? (2)

blind biker (1066130) | more than 2 years ago | (#36800308)

Elisa has been one of the less benevolent companies here in Finland. Of all the telcos/providers, I'd have thought that they would fold the fastest to the demands of Big Media. But no, they did not!? WTF, if Elisa stands its ground, I am pretty sure all other telcos/providers will, too.

As disgusted as I feel for saying this, I still must: well done Elisa, you make me proud for being a Finn.

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