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Email In Oracle-Google Case Will Remain Public

timothy posted more than 2 years ago | from the cannot-unring-that-bell dept.

Google 114

itwbennett writes "When last we left the Oracle/Google patent infringement saga, Oracle had been ordered by Judge William Alsup to lower its claim for damages to $100 million, give or take. Today Judge Alsup denied Google's attempt to get a potentially damaging e-mail redacted. 'What we've actually been asked to do by Larry and Sergey is to investigate what technology alternatives exist to Java for Android and Chrome,' Google engineer Tim Lindholm wrote in the Aug. 2010 e-mail. 'We've been over a hundred of these and think they all suck. We conclude that we need to negotiate a license for Java.'"

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114 comments

haha (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36957764)

too funny

2010 is pretty late in the game (4, Insightful)

MichaelSmith (789609) | more than 2 years ago | (#36957828)

It fits if google were thinking oh shit oracle have their hands on java we are screwed get us out, but its not like right at the start they were rubbing their hands with glee we know we have to pay for a license but we are not going to.

Re:2010 is pretty late in the game (1)

bonch (38532) | more than 2 years ago | (#36961806)

If it's no big deal, why did Google want it redacted, and why did the judge say it would be a blow to their case?

Not incriminating (5, Informative)

wintercolby (1117427) | more than 2 years ago | (#36957846)

August 2010 is much later than when Oracle bought Sun [oracle.com] and long after Android was initially announced [wikipedia.org] . In fact, all this email was sent just 2 days before Oracle filed their lawsuit [cio.com] .

Re:Not incriminating (5, Informative)

Chrisq (894406) | more than 2 years ago | (#36957874)

... In fact, all this email was sent just 2 days before Oracle filed their lawsuit [cio.com] .

Or maybe not sent. from TFA:

Oracle also implied that Lindholm's e-mail had actually been sent, but in fact it was an incomplete draft, Google added.

. Probably someone thought "oh shit Oracle have brought Sun", started to suggest that they got a license when someone else pointed out to them that they didn't need to.

Re:Not incriminating (1)

Kagetsuki (1620613) | more than 2 years ago | (#36957886)

Following the story thus far I'd guess that's probably about what happened.

Re:Not incriminating (1)

Pollardito (781263) | more than 2 years ago | (#36959844)

It doesn't make sense that this email was a start of a suggestion that they get a license, since it seems to be the culmination of them going through "a hundred of these" alternatives to Java and discounting them all. Whoever sent the email saying that they should look through a hundred alternatives to Java (TFA says that it's Larry and Sergey) was already considering whether or not they should get a license. It seems like if they were confident that they still wouldn't need a license they wouldn't have initiated what must have been a fairly large process of checking alternatives.

Re:Not incriminating (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36962030)

More likely, they knew Oracle's history with open source and attempting to gouge customers/users of those open source products for everything they're worth and realized they'd better start looking for alternatives (once they heard Oracle was going to buy Sun/Java).

Re:Not incriminating (2)

gstrickler (920733) | more than 2 years ago | (#36962104)

Oracle was already demanding that they pay for a license. They didn't just file the lawsuit without discussing licensing with Google first. Google said "we don't need a license", Oracle said "Yes you do." Google initiated a search for alternatives as a precaution. Since this document is a technical evaluation of the suitability of the alternatives for their specific use and not a legal opinion about whether or not they actually need a license, this document is not incriminating at all once you spend 2 minutes to examine the situation.

Re:Not incriminating (1)

Runaway1956 (1322357) | more than 2 years ago | (#36962814)

Since I'm not a Google basher, I read that to mean, "Hey, we've been looking at technology ever since we started this business. There are hundred of alternatives to Java - but they all SUCK!" I don't see a "smoking gun" showing that Google was avoiding licensing Java. In fact - that blog posting by Sun's CEO, congratulating Google for using Java seems to imply that no license was needed.

Re:Not incriminating (1)

gstrickler (920733) | more than 2 years ago | (#36960682)

And, it's not a legal opinion on whether they actually need to license Java (which Oracle was already asserting), but rather a technical opinion about Java vs the alternatives. It's not damaging if you bother to examine it at all.

Re:Not incriminating (1)

bonch (38532) | more than 2 years ago | (#36961778)

If it's not incriminating, why did Google try to have it redacted? I guess all the Slashdot lawyers are going to tell us.

Re:Not incriminating (1)

MikeBabcock (65886) | more than 2 years ago | (#36961848)

Lots of things can be taken wrong. That's why you have the right to remain silent -- you might say something that incriminates yourself when you don't intend to.

If you have something that can look to be bad, even if you know it wasn't intended that way, you'd still want it off the record.

Mono (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36957850)

Maybe Miguel will have the last laugh.

Oops, I just noticed that was number #83 on Tim's list.

We've been over a hundred of these... (0, Troll)

slidersv (972720) | more than 2 years ago | (#36957868)

From the article: "We've been over a hundred of these and think they all suck" They forgot to mention that Java sucks just as well.

Re:We've been over a hundred of these... (2)

Kagetsuki (1620613) | more than 2 years ago | (#36957930)

ZING! But there's an NDK for Android as well, so it's not like you have to use Java anyway. There's even a way to write apps in Ruby now. Oh, and apparently you can sell AIR apps through the Android market as well. Realistically at this point Android doesn't really need Java at all, but it's too late for them to take it out. I personally think they should have done all the base components native, made an X11 like protocol for communication between widgets and apps and whatever, and then just told everyone to go for it. If that were the case using a VM based language would spare you some headaches, but even then you wouldn't be tied to Java as Ruby, Python, AIR/AS3, and a whole bunch of others would work just the same.

On a side note, I'm a bit ashamed to admit it but the SDK for Android running in Eclipse is really really nice and they've streamlined all the Java stuff and added enough libraries that things are pretty easy to understand and work with. I would have preferred something other than Java, and in general I'm a VIM/Makefile kind of guy so the whole IDE thing still puts me off but still I have to admit they did a great job.

One more thing: Fuck you Oracle!

Re:We've been over a hundred of these... (1)

MichaelSmith (789609) | more than 2 years ago | (#36958006)

I'm a VIM/Makefile kind of guy so the whole IDE thing still puts me off

I'm doing android development with nedit and an xterm for compilations. Still using ant though. There is a howto for that. Also in my day job I have to work on this horrible monstrosity through eclipse. Its fucking awful and blame eclipse for many of the developers design decisions.

Re:We've been over a hundred of these... (1)

Kagetsuki (1620613) | more than 2 years ago | (#36958578)

I can easily understand that. I haven't tried to do it in VIM with Makefiles etc. because the whole thing is so tied into Eclipse I doubt it would be easy to do at all. Can you get the debug feed outside of Eclipse?

Re:We've been over a hundred of these... (0)

Threni (635302) | more than 2 years ago | (#36958022)

> On a side note, I'm a bit ashamed to admit it but the SDK for Android running in Eclipse
> is really really nice

It's just a shame they didn't use NetBeans, because it's Eclipse which sucks. Perhaps I've been spoiled by Visual Studio... for all the abuse Microsoft gets, at least you can do stuff like change the program counter in the IDE to re-run a piece of code.

Re:We've been over a hundred of these... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36958184)

I don't know how you can suggest NetBeans as a viable alternative to Eclipse, which is admittedly awful.

Re:We've been over a hundred of these... (1)

Kagetsuki (1620613) | more than 2 years ago | (#36958596)

Yeah, I was too vague when I said that. The integration in Eclipse is well done. Eclipse itself (editing) is awful. Things like Eclipse automatically adding random lines (like imports) whenever I copy and paste between files? Yeah, that's a terrible feature. Panes/splitting and pane management is very obscure as well. Oh, and tabs are characters, not 4 spaces - seriously fucking stop with the tab conversion.

Re:We've been over a hundred of these... (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36958824)

It's amazing to me that in this day-and-age ANYONE can claim that VIM & Makefile's are superior development environments to Eclipse, Netbeans, or name your IDE. That's simply B.S.!

As for the comment "Things like Eclipse automatically adding random lines (like imports) whenever I copy and paste between files? Yeah, that's a terrible feature." is very telling. It screams "YOU HAVE NO IDEA HOW TO USE THESE TOOLS!" Not only can all these behaviors be customized to your particular liking, with a simple click of the "Refactor->Organize Imports" button, the code will be analyzed and ONLY those imports needed will be specified using fully defined package names.

And for the record, yes I do use VIM & Makefile's now and again for a wide variety of reasons (and have done so for years).

Re:We've been over a hundred of these... (1)

bluefoxlucid (723572) | more than 2 years ago | (#36958984)

Some of us juggle all that stuff in our heads and have a complete map of our code, which becomes difficult to track when we have to deal with automagic shit or go make amendments or deletions from one side or the other. Others write bits of business logic and string it together, and hope it works; often these people rely on development environments to take care of some of the stringing together.

Re:We've been over a hundred of these... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36959258)

Some of us juggle all that stuff in our heads and have a complete map of our code, which becomes difficult to track when we have to deal with automagic stuff or go make amendments or deletions from one side or the other.

And it's absolutely miserable to maintain code you write because invariably you will not do meaningful refactoring because it breaks your mental map.. and is also really annoying for you to have to update all the imports and/or method calls. Every good developer needs decent skills with a powerful text editor. But if you're not using a modern IDE these days you're a terrible coder.

Re:We've been over a hundred of these... (2)

luis_a_espinal (1810296) | more than 2 years ago | (#36960282)

Some of us juggle all that stuff in our heads and have a complete map of our code, which becomes difficult to track when we have to deal with automagic shit or go make amendments or deletions from one side or the other.

There is no automagic. There never is. There are IDE-assisted automatic features (the majority of which is useful), the configuration and behavior of which are not rocket science, and which we either understand or we do not.

Others write bits of business logic and string it together, and hope it works; often these people rely on development environments to take care of some of the stringing together.

False dichotomy between the previous case and the later ones. It might surprise to some, there is people out there who understand the code and intelligently use automated tools for integrating it. We don't get paid to show off our l33t hax0r skills, but to intelligently use tools available for coding to our employer's benefit.

I will also argue, and there is plenty of evidence of it, that, unless you are an absolute genius, if you can completely map the code out in your brain, the complexity (not necessarily the size) of that code is trivial, or small-sized at best. Some languages (say Ruby or Python) are better than others (Java, C++) for helping the developer write more succinct, mentally-manageable code. But beyond a certain size and complexity, independently of whether it is systems or application development, one simply cannot claim to mentally map the code (unless you are the owner of a module and you are actively maintaining it.)

Also, it is a false dichotomy to present business logic and code as separate entities. Business logic gets implemented on code, on top of other non-functional requirements. Code is the executable representation of business logic, it is knowledge captured and codified in software. Break that relationship, and all you have is code for shit. Business logic changes constantly causing inevitable code/system changes and increasing entropy (yes, the 2nd law of thermodynamics applies to software).

It is our job to put constant effort in controlling/negating entropy in the affected systems. And that's what integrated environments are for, to provide for automated tools that when used intelligently in conjunction with good programming practices helps with that part of the software development cycle. These are just tools and they perform according to the hand that wields them. This is something that is sadly neglected or considered irrelevant or trivial.

Re:We've been over a hundred of these... (1)

pseudorand (603231) | more than 2 years ago | (#36959742)

> It's amazing to me that in this day-and-age ANYONE can claim that VIM & Makefile's are superior development environments to Eclipse, Netbeans, or name your IDE. That's simply B.S.!

Except that, outside of the M$ world, IDEs are worthless pieces of shit. I tried, I really tried, like for days, to use Eclipse when I started Android development. But the tools sucked. There was no end to time sucking bugs I encountered, most of which I found lots of others complaining about in forums, but most of which had no solutions or solutions that worked once but the problem came back and no one really knew the root cause for. Okay, so maybe I'm overstating on the number of problems with Eclipse/Android, but I truly did work with it for days and kept hitting the same few problems that no one had solutions for. So then I fired up vim and ant and everything just worked exactly as expected. So nice. Write-to-the-log style debugging may be a bit old school, but it works and it's a hell of a lot better than trying to debug the fucking IDE and IDE plugins themselves.

I think Visual Studio is good simply because it's the primary way to do development in the MS world and all the OS devs use it, so it has to be.

Re:We've been over a hundred of these... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36963622)

For a more polished Android development experience, you might take a look at IntelliJ [jetbrains.com] . They're more concerned with the overall developer experience rather than making their IDE infinitely customizable/extendable.

Explain this one to me. (1)

luis_a_espinal (1810296) | more than 2 years ago | (#36959726)

I've seen these type of claims before, and I'm compelled to ask you. Why do you do it?

Yeah, I was too vague when I said that. The integration in Eclipse is well done. Eclipse itself (editing) is awful. Things like Eclipse automatically adding random lines (like imports) whenever I copy and paste between files?

If by "random" you mean the actual imports needed for the things you copy and paste...

... I mean, seriously. The only time you should ever see an unexpected (not random as there is nothing random going on here, but unexpected), it is because you failed to set up the class path with the correct jars in your project or IDE setup. As a result, Eclipse via reflection picks the first class off the class path that matches the name of it (not the one you want.) And that would be a problem between the keyboard and the chair, not the IDE. I mean, who the heck does Java development w/o setting up a clean class path?

Yeah, that's a terrible feature.

No, it is a problem between the keyboard and the chair.

Panes/splitting and pane management is very obscure as well.

Exactly how? It ain't rocket science. I'm really honest about this.

Oh, and tabs are characters, not 4 spaces - seriously fucking stop with the tab conversion.

Wow, just absolutely wow.

Dude, just do the following:

-- Window/Preferences/General/Editors/Text Editors/(Uncheck)Insert spaces for tabs

-- Java/Code Style/Formatter/Edit Active Profile/Indentation/Tab Policy - Use spaces to indent wrapped lines.

Or simply go to Window/Preferences and type "tab" in the search, and it will show you what settings to change. I can understand a non-technical person not finding a way to change the editor's behavior, but a developer? C'mon. This is like a Winloser saying that gcc on Unix doesn't work because he/she doesn't find a resulting .exe file.

Also, when it comes to tabs over spaces, why would you be so anal about it? It's a freaking config setup, and sometimes, if you work with a team with a retarded set coding standards, they mandate what to use (ergo, not up to you.) And sometimes you inherit code that doesn't necessarily align to your formatting predilections. What do you do then? Do you reformat it all out of the blue? No, you work through. In general, it's a non-issue.

I personally prefer spaces over tabs anyways because I know that the original indentation (which is very important to me) will remain the same independently of whether I open the source code with Eclipse or Vim or Notepad. But that's just me.

For record I used vim for the longest time (funnily I switched from Emacs to Vim), then briefly used JEdit and JDeveloper, picking up Eclipse just recently (back in 2007). I've never had any problem pane splitting. It is a lot easier than Emacs, that's for sure. I never looked back ever since. It is a world of a difference. I still use Vim (I currently do for editing C++, CORBA IDLs and shell scripting and sometimes for simple HTML/JSP and configuration files editing), but for Java development (in particular JEE development), Eclipse. I could use NetBeans as well, but I'm simply more accustomed to Eclipse.

I can't comment about Android development, but in general, yeah, you can do JEE development with Vim, but why would you? What exactly would one try to prove with that? There is a point to be made that people might have a tendency to grow too dependent on the IDE, unable to understand the nitty gritty, but that's just hand-waving. I doubt that such a person would also be a better programmer using a more "raw", primal development environment. And a good programmer will pick the right tool for the right job and would make it sing the tune he wants to.

Equally, I would be baffled to find someone that is a good developer that cannot get past the seemingly complexities of an IDE to get it configured the way he wants to in a short amount of time with some googling for good measure.

I can understand the argument of someone preferring to use VIM out of familiarity. I cannot understand, however, the labeling of sophomore-level configuration issues as insurmountable bugs.

Re:Explain this one to me. (1)

Kagetsuki (1620613) | more than 2 years ago | (#36962120)

Calm down, I just like VIM out of familiarity and I tend to not like IDE's in general (I use a combination of GVIM and Byobu/Screen to do just about everything, dealing with all the code in GVIM and having things like debuging and logging and a general purpose terminal in Byobu). I've used Eclipse so little that the little things that bothered me about it I didn't even bother to look up how to change - and I probably never will if I know how to get the debug terminal running separately and how to wrap it all in a Makefile or use Ant.

So I'm just not an IDE guy, I didn't mean to attack your choice of coding environment and my criticism was both uninformed and unfair. Sorry.

Re:We've been over a hundred of these... (2)

luis_a_espinal (1810296) | more than 2 years ago | (#36960530)

Yeah, I was too vague when I said that. The integration in Eclipse is well done. Eclipse itself (editing) is awful. Things like Eclipse automatically adding random lines (like imports) whenever I copy and paste between files? Yeah, that's a terrible feature. Panes/splitting and pane management is very obscure as well. Oh, and tabs are characters, not 4 spaces - seriously fucking stop with the tab conversion.

C'mon man, this is 2011.

1. Window/Preferences/Editors/Text Editors/Insert spaces for tab (uncheck)

2. Windows/Preferences/Java/Code Style/Formatter/Active Profiler/Edit/Indentation Tab/Tab Policy: Use spaces to indent wrapped lines (uncheck)

You find those two in a most trivial manner. JFGI Eclipse style. Simply enter "tab" in the search box in the Windows/Preference window, and voila, it shows you how to control tab expansion. This is a capability present in any modern IDE or code editor. It is something trivial that one should reasonably expect any developer to figure it out rather quickly.

There are a lot of challenging things in software. This ain't one of them.

Re:We've been over a hundred of these... (1)

Kagetsuki (1620613) | more than 2 years ago | (#36962208)

Fair enough, I haven't used it long enough to even be bothered to personalize that. My main question would be WHY are tabs not characters? Why should having to hit backspace 4 times to knock down indentation one level be a default? What benefit is there?

Re:We've been over a hundred of these... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36962198)

You do realize that with the exception of pane management, which can take some getting used to, both of your other complaints are addressed by a preference that you can change. Did you seriously think that something like the tabs-vs-spaces holy war wouldn't be customizable?

Perhaps before you rail against a product for being terrible, you might want to at least take a second to actually learn how to use it. IDEs are complicated programs that can't be made entirely intuitive. There will always be a learning curve no matter how well made they are. Making judgments before taking the rather simple step of just looking at the ways the IDE can be customized makes you look foolish or trollish, take your pick.

Re:We've been over a hundred of these... (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36958560)

... for all the abuse Microsoft gets, at least you can do stuff like change the program counter in the IDE to re-run a piece of code.

Don't know whether the Java VM API (JVMTI) would allow setting the PC, but you can use "drop to frame" to start the current method again.

Re:We've been over a hundred of these... (1)

shutdown -p now (807394) | more than 2 years ago | (#36962522)

I think he was referring to that feature in VS where, while debugging and paused, you can right-click a line of code and say "Set next statement" [microsoft.com] - and then when you step or run that's where it'll continue. It doesn't quite let you do it with any line, especially in release builds, and the results can sometimes be hilarious, since you can skip initialization or break loop invariants very easily. Still, it can be handy.

Re:We've been over a hundred of these... (1)

outsider007 (115534) | more than 2 years ago | (#36958344)

Jruby and Jython are still Java. Air isn't, but it's kind of a turd.

Re:We've been over a hundred of these... (1)

Kagetsuki (1620613) | more than 2 years ago | (#36958670)

I haven't tried it myself but what I heard about was this: http://code.google.com/p/android-scripting/ [google.com] . Looks like other than Ruby those are native? Weather or not they're usable is a different question entirely...

Personally I really like Ruby, but if it runs like mud and can't really do anything through JRuby then I'll have to pass on it.

Re:We've been over a hundred of these... (1)

Kagetsuki (1620613) | more than 2 years ago | (#36958684)

Oh wait, that's not what I had heard of. Apparently you can wrap Ruby scripts in a package with JRuby and run them as apps. Still not so great but I guess it's something?

Re:We've been over a hundred of these... (1)

outsider007 (115534) | more than 2 years ago | (#36958718)

I like ruby too, and google uses python in-house, but for android's purposes yes they both suck.

The NDK is a wrapper around the Java API, so no. (2)

fejjie (192392) | more than 2 years ago | (#36958558)

> ZING! But there's an NDK for Android as well, so it's not like you have to use Java anyway.

Oh how naive you are... the NDK are C wrappers for the Java API. Yes, you heard me correctly... the C API wraps the Java API and not the other way around like it *should* be.

Re:The NDK is a wrapper around the Java API, so no (1)

JamesP (688957) | more than 2 years ago | (#36958926)

Geez, I didn't know that.

Looks like a case of severe javatarditis...

Re:The NDK is a wrapper around the Java API, so no (1)

Kagetsuki (1620613) | more than 2 years ago | (#36962150)

...! Wow.

I just...

I ...

WHY!?

Re:The NDK is a wrapper around the Java API, so no (1)

shutdown -p now (807394) | more than 2 years ago | (#36962540)

No, the NDK is not a wrapper around Java. Some of the recently added parts of the NDK (the stuff that enables you to write a fullscreen app without a single line of Java code) are wrappers, yes. But OpenGL is 100% native, and so are all the available ANSI C or POSIX calls.

Re:We've been over a hundred of these... (1)

JamesP (688957) | more than 2 years ago | (#36958890)

ZING! But there's an NDK for Android as well, so it's not like you have to use Java anyway.

yes you have. Yes, it's only a stub, and probably the launch menu, but still.

I personally think they should have done all the base components native, made an X11 like protocol for communication between widgets and apps and whatever, and then just told everyone to go for it. If that were the case using a VM based language would spare you some headaches, but even then you wouldn't be tied to Java as Ruby, Python, AIR/AS3, and a whole bunch of others would work just the same.

On a side note, I'm a bit ashamed to admit it but the SDK for Android running in Eclipse is really really nice and they've streamlined all the Java stuff and added enough libraries that things are pretty easy to understand and work with. I would have preferred something other than Java, and in general I'm a VIM/Makefile kind of guy so the whole IDE thing still puts me off but still I have to admit they did a great job.

One more thing: Fuck you Oracle!

The main problem is not the VM, but that google picked Java and Java libs. I mean, how are going to say 'it's not java' to the Judge!? Yes, they have great lawyers, etc, but still...

But yeah, technically, I agree on the whole (except for the X11 part, I'm not sure Android even uses X11)

Re:We've been over a hundred of these... (1)

sourcerror (1718066) | more than 2 years ago | (#36959602)

You can't patent a programming language. The patent is on Just in Time compilation.

Re:We've been over a hundred of these... (1)

Kagetsuki (1620613) | more than 2 years ago | (#36961718)

X11 has this internal networking protocol to pass information back and fourth between objects/processes/whatever. If Google had used something like that to say, communicate with widgets etc. you could code widgets and apps in totally different languages and as long as there was an interface to that internal networking protocol there would be no issue. I believe the Wayland project set out to make a better version of that X11 protocol, perhaps Google should have done something with that?

Re:We've been over a hundred of these... (1)

FreakyGreenLeaky (1536953) | more than 2 years ago | (#36959092)

Somehow, breathlessly bubbling that There's even a way to write apps in Ruby now, which implies you're a luvva of Ruby (a bad thing) and then stating I would have preferred something other than Java which implies you don't enjoy Java (a good thing) and I'm a VIM/Makefile kind of guy which implies you're a decent, honest and all-round wholesome GNU/C/C++ kind of guy, and doing it all in what seems to be a single breath, just leaves me feeling confused.

Still, -1 + 1 + 1 == 1, so there's hope for you yet :)

Re:We've been over a hundred of these... (1)

Kagetsuki (1620613) | more than 2 years ago | (#36961882)

If you ever write anything server-side you'll understand how nice Ruby can be. I've honestly never written an application in it though. Seriously though, the way Ruby deals with data is incredible. Especially when it comes to things like complex strings and string literals and combining them with things and character sets and on and on I'd take Ruby over C++ and every String related C++ library ever made. Just trying to pull off some of the things you can do in a few characters in Ruby with C++ String Streams would take ridiculous amounts of coding.

Ruby is however a very different type of language, and its syntax and the way it operates is something a lot of people don't like. I myself didn't initially like it until I had to do server-side stuff, at which point I quickly found out it is a gorgeous language for that task (and many others, mind you). Would I prefer Ruby over Java for Apps? Well, I don't even know how Ruby would deal with threads and events and things like that, and those are really strong points in Java and things that you can really use extensively in Apps and Widgets, so I don't know.

Re:We've been over a hundred of these... (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36957946)

Tim Lindholm ".. was the Architect of the Java 2 Platform, Micro Edition (J2ME) and co-author of the Java Virtual Machine Specification.".

Perhaps he had a slight bias towards Java.

Re:We've been over a hundred of these... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36957974)

I think he's referring to the Java platform, not the language.

The Java VM is really good, it does have its flaws, but I'm sure it's better than any bug-ridden, just-out-of-the-oven VM out there.

Re:We've been over a hundred of these... (2)

gbjbaanb (229885) | more than 2 years ago | (#36958702)

yup, it sounds like the email is a nerd's response to being asked to choose something other than his favourite technology... "we've been over a hundred of these" and the *only* one that I think is good enough is Java, of course. Just be thankful it wasn't someone who thought C# was the ultimate in all language technologies.

My position: C (maybe C++) would have been ideal for a low-level API that you then build on top of. In whatever language/technology you like once you have that API library established.

Re:We've been over a hundred of these... (1)

bluefoxlucid (723572) | more than 2 years ago | (#36959066)

They don't want to be locked into a low level architecture. What if they had Android/MIPS? I would have gone with ECMA standard CIL, which you can put C# or VB.NET or Java or C on top of by using a compiler with CIL as a target. Java tends to accept... well, just Java. Maybe LLVM instead of CIL...

Re:We've been over a hundred of these... (1)

VGPowerlord (621254) | more than 2 years ago | (#36959660)

Java tends to accept... well, just Java. Maybe LLVM instead of CIL...

Just because there's only one "official" language that runs on the Java VM doesn't mean there aren't others, such as JRuby, Jython, etc... Wikipedia has a list [wikipedia.org] .

Re:We've been over a hundred of these... (1)

gbjbaanb (229885) | more than 2 years ago | (#36960294)

possibly CIL or LLVM, but the point is that any new device still has to have a load of dev work done to allow Dalvik to run on it, a C based API wouldn't require much in the way of additional work for the manufacturer, and none for the app-developer.

With a C based API, you get to run anything on top of it. With Java you only get java-based stuff (ie Java) to run and that just annoys me :)

Re:We've been over a hundred of these... (1)

Dog-Cow (21281) | more than 2 years ago | (#36961348)

The point of a VM is that only the VM changes to accommodate the physical architecture. The thousands of apps already available would not have to be recompiled.

Re:We've been over a hundred of these... (1)

shutdown -p now (807394) | more than 2 years ago | (#36962570)

If the only reason for VM is to not be locked into a particular architecture, then LLVM is by far the best choice. No need for JIT, either, just compile to native when app is installed from the .apk. CIL is more complicated - in particular, it introduces a common object model, which only makes sense if you need languages to interoperate on a higher level (but then you have to either map model to whatever languages offer, or add language extensions to accomodate the model, like C++/CLI).

Of course, using LLVM would then require the underyling API to be plain C.

Re:We've been over a hundred of these... (1)

JamesP (688957) | more than 2 years ago | (#36958774)

Exactly

Geez, if they think "we think they all suck" this screams 'Javatard' to me. The kind of people that think that everything has to be XML.

Do they think Python sucks? Go sucks? JS sucks? Ruby sucks? Groovy sucks?

If they had said "analyzing the several alternatives we think running a JVM is the best option" I would probably agree with them.

Guess what, Apple made the right bet. Not with iPhone, not with MAC OS X, but back there when it was still NEXT. Objective-C

Larry and Sergey, learn the lesson, if you depend 100% on Java, things are not going to work out.

Re:We've been over a hundred of these... (1)

pmontra (738736) | more than 2 years ago | (#36959924)

Objective-C is not an Apple proprietary technology and Google could have used it. I bet it belongs to those one hundred alternatives Google evaluated and discarded for some reasons. I'd like to know why but I'm happy they didn't chose it because it looks so bad with all those square brackets (disclaimer: it's a purely subjective and aesthetic opinion of no technological value). On the other hand, I agree that they've looked for trouble with the way they used Java in their OS, and XML is even worse that Objective-C.

Re:We've been over a hundred of these... (1)

toriver (11308) | more than 2 years ago | (#36960716)

The brackets in Obj-C are cleanliness itself compared to the multitude of uses for most characters in e.g. C++.

Its not an email - its a saved draft (1)

a_n_d_e_r_s (136412) | more than 2 years ago | (#36957876)

Given that there are no recipient - this is a draft for an email that was never sent.

So its nothing more then a private note written by one person.

As for the damages the 100 million figure was for the whole java plattform - given that this is only for a couple of patent in the java plattform the final figure should be significant less then that given that the patents is only a small portion of the java plattform. Its looks like this will become another case where
the only winner will be the lawyers since they will probably end up getting more money then the lawsuit will bring in.

CRITICAL detail (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36957878)

The email was not sent. The To: field was left empty.

Basically, they got email system backups including "draft" folders. It was never made into a communication.

Re:CRITICAL detail (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36958072)

Basically using unsent draft emails as a network notepad.

Thanks ! (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36958356)

Thanks for defending multi-billion dollar corporations. How much do you charge by the hour?

Re:CRITICAL detail (1)

bonch (38532) | more than 2 years ago | (#36961828)

So?

Oracle are the good guys here (4, Interesting)

pieterh (196118) | more than 2 years ago | (#36957922)

No, I'm serious. This is not about emails and licenses but about whether we tolerate monopoly ownership of ideas, i.e. software patents (or patents at all). Up until recently Google has been deliberately naive about the problem, shrugging it off and allowing others to take the hit. It's allowed Microsoft and Apple to accumulate large patent portfolios intended to stop free competition.

Google need to get hit, and they need to see software patents as a real threat to their plan of world domination. They need to realize that $100M buys a lot of lobbyists, and they need to spend that money in Washington to end the software patent system. Oracle is doing us a favour by forcing Google into court here. They're greedy enough to not want a nominal settlement, and they're smart enough to win their case.

So despite the fact that I'd rather stab myself with a blunt fork than install a piece of Oracle software on any machine I own, I'm rooting for them in this case, and I hope they win big.

Re:Oracle are the good guys here (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36957986)

Oracle winning will enforce the idea that companies need to patent ideas. This case needs kicking out to discourage software patents.

Re:Oracle are the good guys here (4, Informative)

Gaygirlie (1657131) | more than 2 years ago | (#36958168)

Google actually IS and has been fighting software patents for a good while already and they do indeed have lobbyists. They however cannot do miracles: the whole god damn media industry is pushing for stricter copyright and patents laws and they've got all the politicians in their pockets.

Re:Oracle are the good guys here (1)

JamesP (688957) | more than 2 years ago | (#36958960)

Then Google and and whatnot should take every last single penny and buy the congress...

Or maybe buy a bunch of patent trolls and 'unleash the kraken' agains MS and Oracle, it's probably cheaper.

Re:Oracle are the good guys here (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36959178)

It'd be cheaper to buy the media industry...but then they'd risk running seriously afoul of antitrust issues.

Re:Oracle are the good guys here (5, Interesting)

bgarcia (33222) | more than 2 years ago | (#36959228)

Please mod parent up.

I've seen this suggested before. The media industry is *small* compared to Google et al. It's amazing that they have so much control in Congress. Google, IBM, Microsoft, etc. should each just buy one or two media companies and be done with it.

Re:Oracle are the good guys here (1)

CrimsonAvenger (580665) | more than 2 years ago | (#36959494)

I've seen this suggested before. The media industry is *small* compared to Google et al. It's amazing that they have so much control in Congress.

They have so much control in Congress because they are willing to bribe Congresscritters and Presidents with enormous amounts of cash, plus favourable depictions of them in movies/TV/news programs.

Assuming, of course, that the congresscritters/presidents were favourably inclined towards them, either economically or politically.

Re:Oracle are the good guys here (1)

bonch (38532) | more than 2 years ago | (#36961948)

Please list examples of these bribes.

Re:Oracle are the good guys here (1)

Rich0 (548339) | more than 2 years ago | (#36960736)

Yup, media industry has a HUGE amount of power. Far disproportionate to their actual earnings, since they influence how the masses think. They pay everybody from singers to actors to newscasters.

Maybe if Google starts a movie/music studio...

Re:Oracle are the good guys here (1)

bonch (38532) | more than 2 years ago | (#36961934)

the whole god damn media industry is pushing for stricter copyright and patents laws and they've got all the politicians in their pockets.

You realize that Google has close ties to the Obama administration, right? Schmidt is a technology adviser for Obama, and Andrew McLaughlin is the U.S. deputy chief technology officer. Marissa Mayer even held a fundraiser at her mansion, where Obama made a personal appearance (less than a week before the FTC dismissed its inquiry into the Street View debacle). I wouldn't be concerned that Google has no politicians in their pockets.

Re:Oracle are the good guys here (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36961978)

And you think that Google hasn't bought off a few politicians themselves? Go back to munching on your tuna-flavoured carpet you dirty, herpes-riddled dyke.

Re:Oracle are the good guys here (1)

Pieroxy (222434) | more than 2 years ago | (#36958342)

and they need to spend that money in Washington to end the software patent system.

Rather, they'll buy some patent portfolios from random failing tech companies and they will jump in the bandwagon of software patents. It is a much easier route to safety for them.

Re:Oracle are the good guys here (1)

westlake (615356) | more than 2 years ago | (#36959296)

Up until recently Google has been deliberately naive about the problem, shrugging it off and allowing others to take the hit. Google need to get hit, and they need to see software patents as a real threat to their plan of world domination.

Google is a licensee of three MPEG LA patent pools:

MPEG-2, MPEG-4, AVC/H.264

I haven't the least doubt that it licensees other technoogies on the same scale.

Google is a business. Its core competence is search. All that licensing the patent portfolio really means iin business s that you can't afford to be the first or the best in everything.

Re:Oracle are the good guys here (1)

phantomfive (622387) | more than 2 years ago | (#36960324)

It's unlikely that Oracle will lose, since their patents have already been tested in court, and have stood up. The only question is what kind of cross-licensing agreement they get with Google, and how much each patent portfolio is worth.

Re:Oracle are the good guys here (1)

chrb (1083577) | more than 2 years ago | (#36960490)

Saying that "Oracle are the good guys here" is kind of like saying that "Japan were the good guys" for hitting the U.S. at Pearl Harbor and pulling them into WWII, because it forced the U.S. to join the Allies and their fight. In the end, that may have turned out to have been for the best, but you still wouldn't describe the Japanese as the "good guys" for starting it.

Re:Oracle are the good guys here (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36961150)

First off, Google spent more on lobbyists this past quarter than ever before (US$2m). Secondly, Google is against patents not because they are out for the public good, but rather because it serves their business. They have borrowed quite a bit of technology from others (Linux kernel, iOS multitouch, Java programming language, even context-sensitive advertising) and would rather not pay anything for that as it will cut into profits.

Re:Oracle are the good guys here (0)

bonch (38532) | more than 2 years ago | (#36961872)

It's allowed Microsoft and Apple to accumulate large patent portfolios intended to stop free competition.

Please give examples where Microsoft and Apple have been stopping "free competition" through patent portfolios. The reason for having them is primarily defensive; e.g., it was Nokia who sued Apple first, not the other way around.

I realize this is Slashdot, and patents have become the new hip cause, following Linux-on-the-desktop, copyright reform, and various other online movements that didn't actually accomplish anything in the last decade.

Remain public? (1)

rossdee (243626) | more than 2 years ago | (#36957952)

Once something is 'out there' its kinda impossible to make it 'private' again.

Re:Remain public? (2)

gl4ss (559668) | more than 2 years ago | (#36959316)

that's not how patent litigation works, i'm afraid.

if it did work like that and the jurys were free to do research on their own, then majority of patent litigation cases would end up with both parties patents being stamped with "obvious shit". because very few patents end up being groundbreaking or so innovative that they'd be worthy of a patent, and that's the world we're living in now.

Re:Remain public? (1)

Dog-Cow (21281) | more than 2 years ago | (#36961420)

Your post has no connection to its parent. In fact, I can't figure out what your point is at all, much less how it might be related.

What did we learn (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36957960)

Never put down your actual thoughts in an e-mail (draft, or sent). Voice communications only. If you have to write an e-mail, don't speculate.

Re:What did we learn - saving /. (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36958028)

Never put down your actual thoughts in an e-mail (draft, or sent). Voice communications only. If you have to write an e-mail, don't speculate.

Exact same things regarding posts on the Internet.

People think we ACs are posting crap, gibberish, offtopic posts, flamebate, and troll but in fact we are protecting ourselves and the Slashdot community from lawsuits such as these.

I mean really, someone posts something like a trade secret and then an AC posts a GNAA flamebait and TADA! instant get out of lawsuit! The plaintiffs lawyers will just bypass the post because of the troll!

We ACs are very under appreciated here! I'm sure we've saved many people from lawsuits because of our post!!!

Re:What did we learn - saving /. (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36958448)

PENIS! Uhh, vagina! Hm... what was that CSS key? Blast, I was almost there!

Re:What did we learn (1)

c0mpliant (1516433) | more than 2 years ago | (#36958130)

Never put down your actual thoughts in an e-mail (draft, or sent). Voice communications only. If you have to write an e-mail, don't speculate.

Sounds like something a young Richard Nixon would say. Worked out well for him

the end of java (1)

Gravis Zero (934156) | more than 2 years ago | (#36958016)

'What we've actually been asked to do by Larry and Sergey is to investigate what technology alternatives exist to Java for Android and Chrome,'

LOLCODE!

Lindholm probably worked for Sun before (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36958166)

Something interesting to note: take a look at who the writers of the Java VM specification are. One of them is Tim Lindholm.

Google should have bought SUN (2)

kyoukhana (2427554) | more than 2 years ago | (#36958882)

Years ago Google should have bought Sun Microsystems which I am sure why didn't they. Or why doesn't Google buy Oracle NOW

Re:Google should have bought SUN (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36959614)

Antitrust concerns?

Re:Google should have bought SUN (1)

VGPowerlord (621254) | more than 2 years ago | (#36959914)

Or why doesn't Google buy Oracle NOW

Google can't afford Oracle.

You may think Google is some super huge corporation, but Oracle is a super huge corporation as well.

Not only that, but Oracle makes more money per year than Google does. Of course, they have less equity (thanks in part to them buying companies willy-nilly).

Re:Google should have bought SUN (2)

MikeBabcock (65886) | more than 2 years ago | (#36961910)

Oracle is trading [google.ca] at around $30 a share with a market cap of ~ $153 billion.
Google is trading [google.ca] at around $600 a share with a market cap of ~$194 billion.

That is to say, Oracle isn't small, and while Google's bigger, it would have to use nearly half its own net worth to gain a controlling share of Oracle.

Lisp (2)

Jmc23 (2353706) | more than 2 years ago | (#36960508)

Please, please, why can't they just use lisp? I'd pay extra for a tablet optimized for lisp. It's just so clean and expressive, and if people wanted they could build they're own complicated DSL's and frameworks on top of it.

Actually i'm willing to pay top-dollar for ANY of todays tablets that can run an optimized Lisp(common lisp preferred), any suggestions?

Re:Lisp (1)

sessamoid (165542) | more than 2 years ago | (#36961442)

Please, please, why can't they just use lisp? I'd pay extra for a tablet optimized for lisp. It's just so clean and expressive, and if people wanted they could build they're own complicated DSL's and frameworks on top of it.

Actually i'm willing to pay top-dollar for ANY of todays tablets that can run an optimized Lisp(common lisp preferred), any suggestions?

Lisps and DSLs seem like they would go together well.

You heard it from a Google engineer! (1)

Tolkien (664315) | more than 2 years ago | (#36961986)

We've been over a hundred of these and think they all suck.

Even Google's version of the Go Programming Language?

Re:You heard it from a Google engineer! (2)

shutdown -p now (807394) | more than 2 years ago | (#36962654)

Go does not run in a VM - it's compiled directly to native code in the existing implementation. I assume they were looking at alternatives to JVM there.

Re:You heard it from a Google engineer! (1)

Tolkien (664315) | more than 2 years ago | (#36963652)

Could be right, I suppose.
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