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835 comments

GNOME shell (0, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36980600)

Maybe Linus somehow didn't install GNOME shell along with it? Other than a few minor issues, which will be fixed with plugins soon enough, I've been rather happy with GNOME 3.

Re:GNOME shell (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36980860)

Maybe Linus is way smarter than you, or me, or all of us?

Tiling window manager (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36980602)

Linus strikes me as the type of guy who would use a tiling window manager, such as xmonad or awesome.

Re:Tiling window manager (2)

EvanED (569694) | more than 2 years ago | (#36980798)

Yeah, I'm continually surprised that his choices are so... conventional. I don't mean that in a bad way, I'm just surprised. I run Windows on my home desktop by choice, have defended many aspects of it a lot over the years here and elsewhere... and even I run xmonad when I'm on a Linux system I use more than momentarily.

Change for the sake of change? (4, Insightful)

damn_registrars (1103043) | more than 2 years ago | (#36980604)

I think both the GNOME group, and Torvalds as well, are guilty of change for the sake of change. Sure, he calls GNOME 3 an "unholy mess", but if

Xfce is a step down from GNOME 2 â" but a huge step up from GNOME 3.

Then why didn't he just stay with GNOME 2?

Of course as a KDE user myself I want to ask why he didn't switch to KDE instead, but I know better than to open that can of worms. It is almost like asking an emacs user why they don't just switch to vi...

Re:Change for the sake of change? (1)

Larryish (1215510) | more than 2 years ago | (#36980634)

I like the idea of a faster desktop environment, but IIRC 2 years ago Xubuntu network management was not all that great.

Is there a decent network manager for XFCE?

Re:Change for the sake of change? (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36980658)

ifconfig

Re:Change for the sake of change? (3, Informative)

Shikaku (1129753) | more than 2 years ago | (#36980670)

http://wicd.sourceforge.net/ [sourceforge.net]

Re:Change for the sake of change? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36980750)

Which requires X windows, doesn't do pair bonding or PPPoE or handle VPN connections correctly, takes up too much screen space when running, and is yet another useless GUI that actively breaks and misparses the underlying text based configuration files, probably written by someone who thought they could "fix" YaST by adding another layer of stupidity to it..

Learn to actually use ifconfig and the wrapper scripts for your distribution instead of inventing a another oversized and horrible GUI to manage features that no one really uses and ignore the ones that matter..

Re:Change for the sake of change? (1)

Shikaku (1129753) | more than 2 years ago | (#36980804)

Which requires X windows

Stopped caring and believing your argument right here.

$ whereis wicd-cli
wicd-cli: /usr/bin/wicd-cli /usr/share/man/man8/wicd-cli.8.gz

Re:Change for the sake of change? (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36980924)

Which requires X windows

Stopped caring and believing your argument right here.

$ whereis wicd-cli
wicd-cli: /usr/bin/wicd-cli /usr/share/man/man8/wicd-cli.8.gz

fair enough
hope you don't care about the rest...

Does Wicd support PPP, PPPoE, or Mobile Broadband?
Not yet. Support for these are planned for wicd 2.0, which will be released in the late future.

Does Wicd support VPN?
Not really. You'll need to create a postconnect script that will start the VPN service, and a post-disconnect script to bring down the service upon disconnect.
Support for this in wicd is planned for wicd 2.0.

Does Wicd support controlling two interfaces at the same time?
No. Support for this is planned for wicd 2.0.
In theory, you could control all interfaces that wicd is not managing manually via some external mechanism (probably some script).

Re:Change for the sake of change? (2)

DirePickle (796986) | more than 2 years ago | (#36980676)

wicd, while not perfect, works just fine for me. It hiccups occasionally, but more or less smoothly switches between wifi access points, ethernet, etc. on my laptop.

Re:Change for the sake of change? (1)

dalias (1978986) | more than 2 years ago | (#36981066)

NetworkManager works perfectly well with Xfce. I've been using them together for several years with no major problems. Wicd is also usable for some people, but I had too many problems with it failing to connect to some WiFi networks I need and the inability to integrate Bluetooth tethering.

Re:Change for the sake of change? (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36980678)

I think both the GNOME group, and Torvalds as well, are guilty of change for the sake of change. Sure, he calls GNOME 3 an "unholy mess", but if

Xfce is a step down from GNOME 2 â" but a huge step up from GNOME 3.

Then why didn't he just stay with GNOME 2?

Of course as a KDE user myself I want to ask why he didn't switch to KDE instead, but I know better than to open that can of worms. It is almost like asking an emacs user why they don't just switch to vi...

Because Gnome 2 isnt going to be maintained or updated. Why stick with something and use a desktop environment if it has no future?

Re:Change for the sake of change? (5, Informative)

ddxexex (1664191) | more than 2 years ago | (#36980686)

He actually was a KDE user before hand and switched to GNOME 2 when KDE4 came out. The question is what will he switched to after Xfce gets a big upgrade?

Re:Change for the sake of change? (5, Funny)

lejerdemayn (823082) | more than 2 years ago | (#36980844)

pretty obvious: he will write his own Desktop Environment. after the linux kernel and git, 'lo and behold: the BASTARD!

Re:Change for the sake of change? (4, Interesting)

macemoneta (154740) | more than 2 years ago | (#36980878)

LXDE [lxde.org] .

Re:Change for the sake of change? (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36981062)

That's what I use on my netbook. Runs like a beast on that 1.6GHz atom with 512kb ram

Re:Change for the sake of change? (1)

chronokitsune3233 (2170390) | more than 2 years ago | (#36980944)

LXDE naturally...or perhaps Enlightenment or Fluxbox or Blackbox or FVWM or Afterstep or... Seriously, he will choose something that he feels will suit his needs/desires at the time. :P

Re:Change for the sake of change? (5, Insightful)

calmofthestorm (1344385) | more than 2 years ago | (#36980700)

Unfortunately that's not always an option. Code tends to rot in a number of ways -- old bugs go unpatched, it no longer plays nice with system libraries. Particularly with an octopus like GNOME that interferes with every part of the system, you can start to see package conflicts, dependencies on old system libraries, etc. This is slow, gradual, and can often be worked around item by item, especially for a hacker like Torvalds, but it takes time and energy.

I had this experience myself with Amarok. I really loved the old amarok (1.4), when it had all the features of the full-on bloated clients like iTunes yet was still light and fast like Rhythmbox. Also fully customizable and scriptable with dcop. I kept pulling it in from backports, and eventually even compiling it myself, when Amarok 2 started coming standard (hoping that the developers would realize the mistake they'd made in throwing away such a perfect interface for that crap). Eventually, I gave up, as it failed to compile due to newer libs one time too many.

Thankfully, some kind folks forked 1.4 and made clementine, but it still lacks many of the features Amarok had at its height (automated album art and lyrics fetching being some of my favorites).

All change is relative. When you stand still, the world moves around you.

The beauty of the desktop vs the cloud is you at least have some control over when you migrate to the new interface.

Re:Change for the sake of change? (2, Insightful)

lejerdemayn (823082) | more than 2 years ago | (#36980852)

I still can't get it out of my head: Amarok depends on mysql. Comon guys.. you need the whole fucking mysql for a fucking music player?

Re:Change for the sake of change? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36980960)

Amarok depends on mysqle.

Re:Change for the sake of change? (1)

Darkness404 (1287218) | more than 2 years ago | (#36980976)

Beats iTunes which seems to need to install half of OS X to work on Windows.

Re:Change for the sake of change? (2)

Baloroth (2370816) | more than 2 years ago | (#36981024)

I'm pretty sure iTunes is half of OS X at this point.

Re:Change for the sake of change? (5, Interesting)

MacTO (1161105) | more than 2 years ago | (#36980718)

To answer your unasked question, he did use KDE a few years back (and I think that he had some rather harsh words for GNOME at the the time). Thing is, he left KDE when it had its radical overhaul.

I think the problem is that GNOME/KDE decided to become the DEs for the rest of us: environments that are more suitable to entertainment than actual work. It also strikes me that Torvalds is the type of guy who works pretty hard, so neither environment is suitable for him anymore.

Re:Change for the sake of change? (2)

sydneyfong (410107) | more than 2 years ago | (#36980916)

environments that are more suitable to entertainment than actual work

If "entertainment" means "playing with the desktop environment", then I fully agree.

Re:Change for the sake of change? (1)

sjames (1099) | more than 2 years ago | (#36980728)

Probably because he realizes that sticking with an EOL GUI is only a short term solution and he wanted to switch to something tolerable that's in active development. If enough of the community should rally around forking Gnome2, he might choose to upgrade to that.

Re:Change for the sake of change? (1)

Antique Geekmeister (740220) | more than 2 years ago | (#36980868)

Or use twm. It's built into the basic X source code, is very lightweight, and has been stable for approximately 15 years. I rely on it extensively to avoid distracting eye candy. I'm afraid that the latest Gnome changes have re-inforced this practice. Individual applications from Gnome have their uses, but is there any _one_ tool from Gnome that doesn't have a superior version easily available, without the burdensome Gnome environment? Is there a use for the "nautilus" component except to entirely mishandle detachable media? And is there any use for "evolution", except to ensure that people cannot read their email?

Re:Change for the sake of change? (1)

FranTaylor (164577) | more than 2 years ago | (#36980982)

15 years? More like 25.

Re:Change for the sake of change? (1)

dskoll (99328) | more than 2 years ago | (#36980738)

Then why didn't he just stay with GNOME 2?

Because maybe he wanted to stay with a living project rather than one that's fossilized and extremely unlikely to have further development, bug fixes, security fixes, etc.?

Re:Change for the sake of change? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36980740)

GNOME2 support in various distros would be ending soon.

Re:Change for the sake of change? (1)

CSMatt (1175471) | more than 2 years ago | (#36980746)

Actually Torvalds was a KDE user for a long time, and regularly criticized the GNOME developers for their UI decisions. However he hated KDE 4 so much when it came out that he switched over to GNOME. [blogspot.com]

Re:Change for the sake of change? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36980788)

Then why didn't he just stay with GNOME 2?
 

Is GNOME 2 still supported [jwz.org] ?

Re:Change for the sake of change? (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36981000)

i'm not using the number 3 for anything... windows, gnome, kde or kernel ! although DOS 3.3 was pretty good.
now get off my lawn!

slashdot == stagnated (-1)

Vegemeister (1259976) | more than 2 years ago | (#36980608)

Just so you know, this is a story about a series of comments on a social networking site. I hate to say it, but

Slashdot == stagnated

Re:slashdot == stagnated (1)

MrMista_B (891430) | more than 2 years ago | (#36980630)

Hi, you must be new here. Welcome to Slashdot! If you're looking for stagnation, look at five years go.

where've you been? (1)

damn_registrars (1103043) | more than 2 years ago | (#36980662)

Just so you know, this is a story about a series of comments on a social networking site. I hate to say it, but

In a way, that is progress here. In case you haven't been paying attention, it is rare to go this long between subsequent stories just about facebook or facebook-boy's finances/legal-situation/latest-acquisition/wardrobe

The notion that

Slashdot == stagnated

Is such old news around here you might find yourself down-modded "redundant" for saying it today.

Re:slashdot == stagnated (2)

RadioheadKid (461411) | more than 2 years ago | (#36980666)

Dude that's nothing, Sports Center has whole stories base on one tweet...

Where should we go then? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36980768)

This is a serious question: Got any ideas on what slashdot should be replaced with?

Have social networking sites made slashdot and its ilk irrelevant? Is there a better slashdot replacement out there? Technocrat.net was pretty good, until it got shutdown, though it did get pretty intense at times. kuro5hin sounded like a good idea, but didn't work out.

I'm unhappy with slashdot, and would LOVE to move on. I can't imagine I'm alone there. So where to?

Re:Where should we go then? (1)

lejerdemayn (823082) | more than 2 years ago | (#36980876)

hackernews?

Re:Where should we go then? (1)

kiwimate (458274) | more than 2 years ago | (#36980994)

I wish I knew. I do not think you're alone, looking at the visitor trends. I, too, want something with the kind of stories /. used to have, and the quality of commentary that /. used to have.

Re:slashdot == stagnated (1)

obarthelemy (160321) | more than 2 years ago | (#36980790)

I disagree. User Interfaces are very important, and even a Linux luminary like Linus speaking up that Gnome, KDE and Unity are past unusable is both sad and a good thing, and in any case it's major. Hopefully someone will rein in the developpers and make them produce stuff that people actually can/want/re happy to use, not wank-off material for nerds.

Re:slashdot == stagnated (-1)

jo42 (227475) | more than 2 years ago | (#36980800)

"Linus Torvalds farts today's Taco Bell Burrito Grande". News on /. at 11.

- T. Roll

Re:slashdot == stagnated (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36980840)

"Linus Torvalds farts today's Taco Bell Burrito Grande". News on /. at 11.

- T. Roll

It's funny but should be modded insightful.

Re:slashdot == stagnated (1)

lejerdemayn (823082) | more than 2 years ago | (#36980864)

In Soviet Russia, stagnation slashdots yuo!

Good idea (1)

Hsien-Ko (1090623) | more than 2 years ago | (#36980618)

to jump ship to something that actually stays consistent over the years that doesn't try "revolutionizing" for no good reason.

Re:Good idea (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36980696)

Yeah let's just have everything stagnate and stay the same forever because poor lusers can't figure out the button moved 100 pixels and has a different icon. Wah wah wah.

Re:Good idea (3, Insightful)

0123456 (636235) | more than 2 years ago | (#36980884)

Yeah let's just have everything stagnate and stay the same forever because poor lusers can't figure out the button moved 100 pixels and has a different icon. Wah wah wah.

Yeah, let's add silly animations and flashy icons that make the desktop dramatically less useful just so we can show everyone how cool we are.

Hopefully with a few more famous users switching to xfce it can progress to something as good as Gnome 2 was before they started Windowizing it.

Re:Good idea (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36981020)

It's amusing when people equate every change in GNOME and KDE with becoming more like Windows, even when they become less like it (that would be GNOME 3).

Re:Good idea (2)

Darkness404 (1287218) | more than 2 years ago | (#36981006)

Clearly you must be in charge of Facebook's UI.

Change for the sake of change is pointless and harms usability. No one was complaining about the basics of GNOME 2 and changing to GNOME-shell or whatever is fixing something that doesn't need fixed.

Re:Good idea (1)

gweihir (88907) | more than 2 years ago | (#36980908)

to jump ship to something that actually stays consistent over the years that doesn't try "revolutionizing" for no good reason.

Indeed. I am a fvwm user and it continues to meet my high expectations with regard to clean desktop and seamless virtual desktop integration. If I do not have 3x3 virtual desktops, I am not happy. All this newfangled stuff is mostly besides the point. Fvwm was good back on SunOS.

Funny to me... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36980624)

Cause I did the same thing about a month ago. I thought I was alone...

Re:Funny to me... (2)

xaoslaad (590527) | more than 2 years ago | (#36980654)

not even close. I did this too and I know others who have as well. I think Xfce is going to get a lot of new users as more and more distros move to gnome 3.

Re:Funny to me... (1)

lejerdemayn (823082) | more than 2 years ago | (#36980886)

yeah, been using it ever since I installed archlinux

Re:Funny to me... (1)

hawguy (1600213) | more than 2 years ago | (#36980932)

Me too, I moved to KDE briefly, but after a couple months of periodically running into a bug [kde.org] (weekly) that made KDE unable to open new windows I started to look for alternatives. I'd already tried and rejected Gnome3 and Unity, so I switched to xfce and haven't looked back - runs as well on my 1GB laptop as on my 8GB desktop, which was not the case with KDE.

Re:Funny to me... (1)

cptdondo (59460) | more than 2 years ago | (#36980754)

I guess for the first time (and last) I can say that I'm far, far ahead of Linus. I ditched Gnome for Xfce about 12 years ago.

Bravo (2)

SilverHatHacker (1381259) | more than 2 years ago | (#36980628)

They lost me when they removed the ability to change themes from the default install. I understand the viewpoint of wanting a consistent user interface, but removing basic customisation features is a slap in the face to most Linux users, especially after all the grief that Unity got for not letting you move the dock from the left side.

Re:Bravo (2)

Charliemopps (1157495) | more than 2 years ago | (#36980986)

Slap in the face? Why is it that, whenever I read posts by Linux users bitching about some feature change in Linux, it always reads like an episodes of "The real housewives"?

decapitation (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36980646)

There can be only one.

Gnome 3 is unholy by definition (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36980652)

Holy = Linus uses it.
Unholy = Linus does not use it.

So of course Gnome 3 is unholy, because Linus made it so. :-)

I completely agree (2)

Omnifarious (11933) | more than 2 years ago | (#36980668)

It's a disaster. I installed it on a VM. Luckily, I never use the console of that VM for anything and simply bring up windows on the host computer's X server. I have been highly reluctant to install Fedora 15 on anything after experiencing what it looks like and works like on my VM. It's nearly completely broken. I would be significantly less efficient if I actually tried to use it, and I would be constantly frustrated and annoyed by things that didn't work at all, or were stupidly redone to be more obscure and difficult.

And that's with 'forced compatibility mode' because my VM doesn't support 3D acceleration very well.

To be clear, it's the panel, shell and window manager that are broken. The applications that use the toolkit are fine.

well in my opinion (not that it matters but) (1)

Osgeld (1900440) | more than 2 years ago | (#36980690)

Good call, up until recently I was preaching LXDE! and that is a fine desktop but it has a lot of klunk, I put debian on my powermac9600 with XFCE 4.6 and wow its pretty darn good and is now my favorite. A simple desktop that doesn't forget 1984 simple standards, gets the hell out of the way and is extremely fast. How fast? well my powermac 9600 is 300Mhz with 256meg of EDO ram and is upgraded with a PCI ati R7000 card and I use it daily on my electronics bench, 14 years later with debian, thats pretty good.

Smart Move (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36980706)

Yeah.. Gnome 3 is a revolution... for smartphones. We desktop users need serious environments, not the insanity of Gnome 3 nor the broken and hog experience of KDE 4.x (they still insist that you can't open these nice CD's or DVD written with non UTF8 characters on it??). XFCE is not the most serious and good one, but this is what we have nowadays. The Mint XFCE distro is a good example of what sane people with some common sense can do with a minimalistic approach. Heck, even, the Gnome 2.x editions of Mint are a very pleasant experience, compared with the stupidity and insanity that KD/Gnom{e} cursed upon us.

Gnome is dead (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36980712)

Gnome is dead. Netcraft confirms it.

GNOME, KDE, etc (0, Troll)

postmortem (906676) | more than 2 years ago | (#36980714)

All these window managers are inferior to Windows. Even after copying each Windows release, they are still behind Windows 95 in usability. Hell, they are getting worse. It is now a punishment to me to use Gnome 2.1x.

For example, you cannot change location in Nautilus without using magic keyboard shortcut such as Ctrl + L. But you can see location just fine, just you can't change it.

Only chance for good Linux desktop is if Google decides to make some professional window manager like they did on Android.

I appreciate work that GNOME/KDE teams are putting out for pro bone, but after so many releases that don't address basic usability issue, I cannot but wonder if they are going in wrong direction.

Re:GNOME, KDE, etc (1)

SilverHatHacker (1381259) | more than 2 years ago | (#36980820)

Be careful what you wish for. The whole abomination that is GNOME Shell came about as the result of usability studies.

Re:GNOME, KDE, etc (1)

0123456 (636235) | more than 2 years ago | (#36980890)

Be careful what you wish for. The whole abomination that is GNOME Shell came about as the result of usability studies.

Presumably they were studying how to make it as unusable as possible?

Re:GNOME, KDE, etc (1)

redherring728 (1927764) | more than 2 years ago | (#36980874)

For example, you cannot change location in Nautilus without using magic keyboard shortcut such as Ctrl + L. But you can see location just fine, just you can't change it.

Yes, you can. I almost never use Ctrl+L. By default you have several ways to navigate, and you can even customize it to look pretty similar to Windows if you wanted, and you don't even have to use Nautilus at all if you don't want to.

Re:GNOME, KDE, etc (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36980896)

You're looking for "Go->Location...".

Next gueber please

Re:GNOME, KDE, etc (1)

jedidiah (1196) | more than 2 years ago | (#36980946)

> For example, you cannot change location in Nautilus without using magic keyboard shortcut such as Ctrl + L.

Nonsense. If the location bar is visible, you can edit it directly.

Re:GNOME, KDE, etc (2)

TheInternetGuy (2006682) | more than 2 years ago | (#36980954)

Well that's OK, pretty soon Windows x will be inferior to Windows x-1 to

They're all apeing OSX (4, Interesting)

TerranFury (726743) | more than 2 years ago | (#36980720)

Earlier GNOMES and KDEs imitated Windows. One thing Windows did right was the Taskbar. It is, in all seriousness, an extremely good metaphor. It separates the acts of launching programs from managing which ones are running, because, dammit, those are different things.

OSX, with its Dock, conflates launching a program with looking at a window that it has opened. The implicit metaphor is that all programs are always "running," and that the messy details of actually starting a process should be wrapped up by the operating system so that we don't need to think about it. Then, multitasking within a program falls to the program itself. Everybody ends up implementing their own tabs.

Android does the same thing as OSX. All "apps" are always "running," more-or-less, from a GUI point of view. Under-the-hood, they obviously are not; they have to restore themselves from saved state. But this varies from program to program, and is one of the reasons Android has an inconsistent user experience. Given an unfamiliar program, you don't know at first when you're quitting it, and when you're leaving it running in the background.

Now, Gnome3 appears also to falling into the OSX camp.

What Torvalds seems to prefer, in KDE3.5, Gnome2, and now XFCE, is a more Windows-like metaphor for multitasking. I'm with him. I think that's one thing Windows did right.

Personally, I think KDE 3.5 was the height of full-featured Linux desktop environments, and it's degraded into so much juvenile bullshit ever since. Now, just give me something lightweight that uses a reasonable multitasking paradigm and gets out of the way. XFCE fits the bill.

Re:They're all apeing OSX (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36980882)

"One thing Windows did right was the Taskbar."

You mean: one thing they copied right, from Arthur (~ 1987, forefather of RISC OS), was the Taskbar? See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_RISC_OS

Re:They're all apeing OSX (1)

Moridineas (213502) | more than 2 years ago | (#36980906)

You mean pre-Windows 7, right?

The Windows 7 start bar seems to be fairly analogous to the OSX dock.

Re:They're all apeing OSX (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36980990)

It's still way better than the dock for actual window management, even on it's default settings.

Hear, hear, centos5 + kde 3.5 (1)

shovas (1605685) | more than 2 years ago | (#36981042)

I'm sticking with CentOS 5 + KDE 3.5 until I can stomach KDE 4 or I force myself onto something else. Just can't beat a plain jane, straight up multitasking desktop for raw productivity.

Who cares? (0, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36980724)

Steve Jobs says "BOO!"
Linus Torvalds says "WOO!"
Mark Zuckerberg says "POO!"

This is TMZ for nerds. Swap Kardashians for Zuckerberg. Snookie for Torvalds. And Lohan for Jobs. Or whatever.

I care more what my friends or coworkers suggest for tools, distros, sites, etc., than I really care about the opinions of these guys. Even then, I just check it out for myself.

He's not the only one (5, Insightful)

MetricT (128876) | more than 2 years ago | (#36980730)

I've worked as a sysadmin in academic HPC for 10+ years. 1000+ Linux servers. I've worked with Gnome for years, since the 1.x days.

Gnome 3 is so bad I've switched to using Windows 7. Whiskey Tango Foxtrot were the Gnome3 developers "thinking"?

Want to refactor a crap ton of code? I understand completely. Want to completely trash the most usable Linux UI? Go die in a fire. Seriously.

Start listening to your user base, or you'll quickly cease to have one.

Re:He's not the only one (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36980842)

Gnome 3 is so bad I've switched to using Windows 7.

Hey, I like Windows as much of the next guy (um, I guess that doesn't really work around Slashdot, does it? "I like windows as much as the next guy who actually likes it and will argue the many things it does right"), but what? Do you decide that you don't like your Civic so you bought a bike? That the guitar you've been playing for a while is wearing out, so you replace it with a drum kit? :-)

Re:He's not the only one (2)

MetricT (128876) | more than 2 years ago | (#36980942)

I need 3 things to do my job:

* Tons of terminal windows
* Web browser
* Email client

That's it. All you have to give me is that, and not screw up my work-flow, and I'm happy. And Gnome3 messes up my terminal royally (I have the same gripe as Linus). Windows 7 does a better job of providing a usable desktop.

Re:He's not the only one (4, Insightful)

blai (1380673) | more than 2 years ago | (#36980926)

The problem here might have been that they actually *are* listening to the user base, but the user base doesn't know that it wants. "I want it easier to use", oh "let's make something something more prominent" and here's what you get.

Instead of just listening, I think developers need some sort of intelligence of their own, too.

Re:He's not the only one (4, Interesting)

datakid23 (1706976) | more than 2 years ago | (#36981022)

While I mostly agree - why hasn't anyone just forked Gnome2 and run with it - it is under the GPL isn't it?

finally (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36980734)

I, like most knowledgeable people, already switched to XFCE years ago. Good to see Linus is finally getting with the program.

I did the same thing. (2)

Beelzebud (1361137) | more than 2 years ago | (#36980760)

I tested out Gnome 3 on Arch for about a week before I decided it was time to abandon it. I also ended up at Xfce. It gets the job done.

Mix and match (1)

dbIII (701233) | more than 2 years ago | (#36980776)

For a long time it's been possible to use a mix of different environments to make up for things you don't like in any single environment. For example I've got users in my workplace using Gnome2 but with Kwin as the window manager becuase of the way the window manager with gnome badly stuffed up handling windows of some applications that run on clusters. That mixed environment was set up with three mouse clicks on Fedora (via compizfusion-icon).

evilwm (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36980816)

I'm using evilwm since 2003, it's a great window manager and it hasn't needed an update since then.

Also what are some worthwile people to follow on google+?

I don't get it (1)

93 Escort Wagon (326346) | more than 2 years ago | (#36980854)

Why do people care what Linus' opinion is with regard to window managers?

Re:I don't get it (5, Insightful)

geek (5680) | more than 2 years ago | (#36980898)

Because he is a brilliant and positive influence in the community who is outspoken and contributes in a major way. Because if it weren't for him there wouldn't be a gnome or kde. The man has created more jobs than Obama with his "free" code. I may not always agree with him but I'll be damned if I don't lend him my ear.

Re:I don't get it (2)

0123456 (636235) | more than 2 years ago | (#36980918)

Why do people care what Linus' opinion is with regard to window managers?

Good question. Why do people care what the guy who created one of the world's most successful operating systems thinks about GUIs that run on it?

Re:I don't get it (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36981010)

Because if he gets pissed off enough about it, he might write his own and change the we see desktop environments? XD

Seriously, most of us do not care. Except for GNOME 3 haters who get some validation for their hate, and maybe the press who get some extra headline they can sell.

Re:I don't get it (2)

dbc (135354) | more than 2 years ago | (#36981018)

Well, Linus has a reputation for seeking lean, effective functionality in every tool he uses. And because he gets a lot of attention, his words can cause large shifts in usage patterns -- and more users brings more development effort.

For my part, I'm overjoyed. I've been using Xfce for a long time, because Gnome and KDE are both festering piles of bloat. From my perspective, Xfce was a step up from Blackbox... although the last release of Xfce seemed dangerously bloaty to me. Obviously, my taste runs to the ultra-lean. In any case, I'm hoping huge numbers of Linus' fan boys follow him blindly and unthinkingly to Xfce just to be cool, because that can only mean better support for Xfce.

I'm with Linus (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36980892)

I agree linux is an unholy mess, i'm on windows 7

Gnome has become too heavy and so has KDE (1)

brim4brim (2343300) | more than 2 years ago | (#36980902)

Which was one of the reasons I switched from windows in the first place. I now run enlightenment at the moment. Does everything I need it to, looks good and doesn't use a lot of memory.

Did I miss a memo? (1)

martin-boundary (547041) | more than 2 years ago | (#36980936)

When did Linus stop using KDE and start using GNOME? Did I miss a memo? Damn, nobody tells me anything anymore. I'll be in the basement typing startx and tweaking my .Xinitrc, if anyone needs me.

Exactly the same trajectory, but for the ending. (4, Interesting)

aussersterne (212916) | more than 2 years ago | (#36980970)

I started using Linux full-time in 1994, wrote a number of Linux books, did a whole bunch of server and desktop installations and was a huge fan of Linux+KDE beginning with KDE pre-1.0 releases. I was religiously all-Linux, all-KDE, all the time until KDE 4 on Fedora 9.

I stuck with KDE4 for several months; at first, I couldn't imagine changing the desktop environment I'd had for so long.

Eventually, however, I realized I spent far too much time trying to configure and reconfigure my KDE4 desktop to behave and appear in ways that were acceptable to me. It seemed like I was always spending time configuring my desktop, yet never getting it quite right. I'd be in the middle of a real task and something would annoy the hell out of me and the next thing you know I'd be knee-deep in configuration and kludging and after a couple hours I'd determinedly force myself to give up and live with it (frown, frown) only to find myself configuring once again before the day was out.

After about three months of that, I switched to GNOME 2 on Fedora. It worked well for me and I decided I actually rather liked GNOME. Once again I settled into an environment, developed a workflow and keyboard and mouse habits and figured out how to do all of the little tweaks I wanted to do each time I did a new distro install to support new hardware, etc.

But when GNOME3 details came out and as the KDE4/GNOME3/Unity trifecta started to overtake the Linux world, I got really frustrated. I switched to Xfce for a while, but like Linus, found it not quite where I wanted to be. I tried to return to Windowmaker, which I'd used back in the day before KDE-1pre releases. But all these years later and no native file manager? No drag-and-drop? Yes, I *can* use the command line, but sometimes I'd like to have a working desktop metaphor as well.

So I tried Enlightenment. Nightmare; a toy project. You spend all of your time just trying to get the install consistent.

Then I realized that I felt really good about the Macs I was encountering at the university where I am faculty. So I committed my first Linux-betrayal since 1994, repartitioned, and installed a Hackintosh partition to "test out" OSX.

Three months later I'd built a brand new Hackintosh desktop and bought all Apple software, the first software I'd bought in decades after decades as a free software user. The Linux partition, while still there, was rarely booted any longer. Six months later I'd ditched the Hackintosh desktop and bought a MacBook Pro and reformatted all of my long-term archival media to be Mac-readable.

There are things that frustrate me about Macs (most notably the spinning beach ball moments and the inadequacy of Mac Ports next to the RedHat and Debian repositories, less notably but still there the cost of the hardware and difficulty of cheap repairs with eBay spare parts), but I am in all honesty more productive than I've been in a very, very long time, and once again rarely have to worry about being pissed off by, or spending time I don't have reconfiguring or trying to kludge apart, my desktop—just like back in the KDE3 and GNOME2 days.

Too bad those days are over, but I fear that free software has lost this padawan to the dark side for life. Once you get used to no configuration, no kludges, everything works to your satisfaction 95 percent of the time, it's really hard to imagine going back to tweaks, hacks, editing configuration files, and new releases that routinely require that all of these be rediscovered and that come down the pipe in regular updates and are required for recent hardware support.

The times are changin' (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36980972)

Used to be, GNOME (2) and KDE (3) were the mainstream desktop environments and Xfce was the "light" one.
Now, GNOME (3) and KDE (4) have become more experimental, Xfce has staked its position as a more conservative DE, and LXDE is the new "light" one.

Linux kernel hackers' opinions about UI (1)

Ukab the Great (87152) | more than 2 years ago | (#36981004)

Should be taken as seriously as Gordon Ramsay's opinions about kernel design. When Don Norman, Bruce Tognazzini, or someone else who actually has an informed opinion about user interface comments about GNOME, then I'll consider it to be newsworthy.

same thing happened to kde, amarok (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36981014)

I'm starting to dread when programmers say stuff like "unmaintainable" - you know they'll throw everything out and start over. Nothing usable will result for a few years. ie KDE 4, Amarok 2, now gnome 3 and unity. I wonder if linus tried unity?

I also switched to XFCE (1)

sycomonkey (666153) | more than 2 years ago | (#36981028)

But when I switched it was because of Ubuntu's Unity. I suspect that's not an issue Torvalds would be likely to have.

Monitor Size (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#36981034)

Gnome 3 didn't last an hour after I installed Fedora 15. I almost never use a 'desktop' and almost never even see it, and never want to. I have programs that cover over the background and a task bar.

When Windows 95 came out MS said that it was "goodbye to the hated Win3.1 UI'. Well actually I hated Windows 95 and liked having Win3.1 Program Manager just an Alt-Tab away. Digging down to the desktop to find an icon was a waste of time. Never used em, never will.

New monitors are mostly 1920x1080. These give lots of width and lack of height. Having the task bar and menu bar at top and bottom of the screen wastes what height there is.

Gnome 2 or XFCE with the panels on the left (with task bar on autohide) gives me everything I need while having my program windows still visible and using all the height available. I may even switch to KOffice because I can put all the toolbars to left and right leaving maximum height for the document.

I put Ubuntu with Unity on my netbook. Same result - switched to XFCE within an hour.

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